I've been observing people with different political opinions for a long time now, and it seems to me that nationalism, as opposed to other political ideologies, makes you a healthier, noble and more moral person.

I look down the streets and see young and happy kids carrying around Australian flags, mingling among the elderly and doing everything they can to make their community a better place. What does Nationalism give that other political ideologies don't? -Pride and passion. These kids are above all, NORMAL, and easy to communicate with.

On on the other side of the coin, we have multiculturalist supporters, anarchists, communists and socialists.

Take for example the way a communist, anarchist or left-wing person acts...

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9854/s11hr2.jpg

Since they have a sense that there's no such thing as countries... there's no such thing as the traditional family unit...  have no need to be patriotic... think the rest of the world is wrong and they're the only ones right... think religion should be abolished... etc etc etc...  they have no respect for authority nor their elders. They protest against everything and make themselves societies outcasts.

A nationalist however, feels it's his/her place to make his/her community a better place to live and strive to do so in a lawful, constructive way.

So do you think I have a point? Does being a nationalist make you a healthier, better person? Or can communists, multiculturalists and socialists fit into their society as much as nationalists do?

It certainly does. 8-)

I think you are using some circular reasoning here. Flag waving, talking to your elders, ease of communication etc are poor proxy measures of health, nobility or morals. You also appear to be creating a false dichotomy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/logical-fallacies.html

Well Freediver, I'm certainly open for suggestions and debate on whether there's other political ideologies that make a person fit in or makes someone healthier mentally than nationalism. Hell, I'm even open to suggestions that Communists and anarchists aren't even the social outcasts that I think they are.

Now do you have anything further to add to this thread? Or are you just wasting pefectly good forum space.

Good points DT.  But it would be awful if we ended up like the US with their nationalistic attitude.  They will blindly follow their President's ideology, not because they understand what he's saying or doing, but because they believe no matter what he says he's right.

It is sad though that we can no longer look on Australia as we used to.  When I'm in Sydney - it's spot the aussie, particularly around Sydney Central.  You have to fight your way through thousands of Asians.  I know they've brought some diversity with them, but to me they are here to exploit us with their cheap, shoddy imports and their total disregard of animal rights in the food and products they sell.  

Sydney is packed like a sardine can now and is filthy and seems to have lost the quality of life it used to have.  As more and more guest workers, illegal and legal immigrants flood Australia, australians as we know them seem to be disappearing in the crowd.  

We are certainly an industrial nation now and it doesn't matter who comes here as long as they have something to flog they're welcome.  Humanity and the  environment is no longer of importance to our increasing multicultural society.  Our cities are just becoming one big writhing mass of desperation.

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Good points DT.

Serious?  :P I thought for sure you'd disagree with it.


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But it would be awful if we ended up like the US with their nationalistic attitude.  They will blindly follow their President's ideology, not because they understand what he's saying or doing, but because they believe no matter what he says he's right.

Of course not. I'd hate for Australia to make a movie like Independence Day.  :o ;D

Patriotic and educated. That's the ticket.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]



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It is sad though that we can no longer look on Australia as we used to.  When I'm in Sydney - it's spot the aussie, particularly around Sydney Central.  You have to fight your way through thousands of Asians.  I know they've brought some diversity with them, but to me they are here to exploit us with their cheap, shoddy imports and their total disregard of animal rights in the food and products they sell.   Sydney is packed like a sardine can now and is filthy and seems to have lost the quality of life it used to have.  As more and more guest workers, illegal and legal immigrants flood Australia, australians as we know them seem to be disappearing in the crowd.   We are certainly an industrial nation now and it doesn't matter who comes here as long as they have something to flog they're welcome.  Humanity and the  environment is no longer of importance to our increasing multicultural society.  Our cities are just becoming one big writhing mass of desperation.

It must mirror Melbourne then.

I've only ever been to Sydney in my life... when I was twelve... but the reports I've heard are just awful. :(

A few of my Asian friends were actually quite disappointed with Australia on visiting... because (Believe it or not) they said it wasn't what they expected it to be with too many immigrants and foreign culture.  :P And this would be my reaction if I EVER visited India... I wouldn't wanna see Brumby's stores and Australian style pubs... I'd wanna see some local curry stores and tea-houses... I can 100% see the viewpoint of my Asian friend. It must be very disappointing for them.

As far as I'm concerned, multiculturalism and immigration has reached a breaking point.

-I think Australia needs to adopt immigration and cultural policies similar to that of the Japanese. Are you familiar with it?

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Patriotic and educated. That's the ticket.  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Thats it!


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It is sad though that we can no longer look on Australia as we used to.  When I'm in Sydney - it's spot the aussie, particularly around Sydney Central.

Dont i know it!



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It must mirror Melbourne then.

Certainly does!..... if not worse.


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And this would be my reaction if I EVER visited India... I wouldn't wanna see Brumby's stores and Australian style pubs... I'd wanna see some local curry stores and tea-houses...

Here Here.


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I can 100% see the viewpoint of my Asian friend. It must be very disappointing for them.

Ive heard exactly the same thing. they are so dissapointed when they arrive.... ''its just like the country i just left''.


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As far as I'm concerned, multiculturalism and immigration has reached a breaking point.

Its close.


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-I think Australia needs to adopt immigration and cultural policies similar to that of the Japanese. Are you familiar with it?

Yep. Japan will ALWAYS be Japanese.

Japanese society suffers from it's own homogeneity.

DT do you think tourists should be able to come here and see Aborigines leading a hunter gatherer existence without interference from European immigrants?

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DT do you think tourists should be able to come here and see Aborigines leading a hunter gatherer existence without interference from European immigrants?

What are you trying to say, freediver? Sometimes you write so cryptic that I can't understand the point you're trying to make.

It was a response to this:

A few of my Asian friends were actually quite disappointed with Australia on visiting... because (Believe it or not) they said it wasn't what they expected it to be with too many immigrants and foreign culture.

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Japanese society suffers from it's own homogeneity.

Please Explain.



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do you think tourists should be able to come here and see Aborigines leading a hunter gatherer existence without interference from European immigrants?

Yeah sure, with binoculars- in Arnhem land!

In biological systems, diversity gives strength. It's the same with cultural/social systems. The pursuit of uniformity is ultimately destructive.

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freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2007 at 6:14pm: It was a response to this: A few of my Asian friends were actually quite disappointed with Australia on visiting... because (Believe it or not) they said it wasn't what they expected it to be with too many immigrants and foreign culture.

They dont come here to see Abo's exclusively.
Most are interested in koala's and the sydney harbour bridge and to see the worlds largest monolith.

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DT do you think tourists should be able to come here and see Aborigines leading a hunter gatherer existence without interference from European immigrants?

'Yes.'

I'd also expect them to want to see European culture in all its glory, as it's the image they expect when coming to Australia.

Not Asian culture, nor Middle Eastern culture, nor African culture. European.

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In biological systems, diversity gives strength. It's the same with cultural/social systems. The pursuit of uniformity is ultimately destructive.

::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

You've got to be kidding me, freediver.

But we're not European. We're Australian.

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But we're not European. We're Australian.

Australian = European

Lack of diversity leads to an inability to adapt and change. Opposition to diversity inevitably means opposition to change. A lot of Japan's recent troubles are attributed to holding on to old traditions despite the obvious damage it is doing to their society. For example they are still a deeply sexist society. A society that squashes diversity destroys anything new and stagnates. That is why the middle east when from a technological powerhouse and cultural centre to a backwater, and China even earlier, and the same thing would happen to western society if you had your way.

That is not to say we should accept everyone and everything with open arms. It just means you have to have a valid reason for opposing something and trying to ban it, rather than responding to fear, grounded in ignorance.

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For example they are still a deeply sexist society.

Give me ONE example of how this is so 'harmful' to Japanese society.



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That is why the middle east when from a technological powerhouse and cultural centre to a backwater, and China even earlier, and the same thing would happen to western society if you had your way.

Right.  ::) So what cultures from other countries are so beneficial to Australia, freediver? Give us a few examples. And PLEASE don't say 'food.' That's such a hollow argument.



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That is not to say we should accept everyone and everything with open arms. It just means you have to have a valid reason for opposing something and trying to ban it, rather than responding to fear, grounded in ignorance.

Right.

The japanese have a ''nippon japan policy'' (like white aus policy) where only japanese are allowed to permenantly live and own property. 8-)

If only our White Australia Policy still existed! ;D

Great question, DT.

Some nationalists are good people because their patriotism follows from a love of their own community, which they know well, and their love usually extends to a warm and proud hospitality towards strangers.

Some nationalists, on the other hand, can be the most despicable people of all, when their beliefs follow from a fear of change or the unfamiliar. Their hatred and anger creates suspicion and misery for their neighbours, and poisons and undermines the harmony and wellbeing of their own communities.

The problem is that modern life is cosmopolitan - much of what makes the lifestyle we take for granted derives from the global economy - it isn't possible to remain a part of this modern culture while avoiding contact with "others". The mixing is inevitable, and the resulting tensions are inevitable.

Your point about the importance of education is spot on. Education that promotes tolerance and understanding of others.

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Some nationalists are good people because their patriotism follows from a love of their own community, which they know well, and their love usually extends to a warm and proud hospitality towards strangers. Some nationalists, on the other hand, can be the most despicable people of all, when their beliefs follow from a fear of change or the unfamiliar. Their hatred and anger creates suspicion and misery for their neighbours, and poisons and undermines the harmony and wellbeing of their own communities.

Well put shithouserat. :)

Give me ONE example of how this is so 'harmful' to Japanese society.  

I don't think I'll bother. If you don't think that sexism harms a society, perhaps you should start a new thread and tell us all about it.

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I don't think I'll bother. If you don't think that sexism harms a society, perhaps you should start a new thread and tell us all about it.

Fair enough. But you still should back up your arguments with some evidence and reasoning freediver, something which you generally lack.

To me... sexism isn't totally 'detrimental' to a society like you're making it out to be. In fact, I'd say feminism is far more detrimental than sexism ever could be, especially in a society like Japan. And I don't think it's wise to explain to ME about Japanese society... as I'm a specialist.

You're yet to give me a convincing example of how 'diversity' benefits society. Until you do... you're argument means nothing to me. (Give me a convincing reason and I'll admit you're right-- Trust me... I'm pretty open-minded).

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2007 at 8:03pm:

Lack of diversity leads to an inability to adapt and change. Opposition to diversity inevitably means opposition to change. A lot of Japan's recent troubles are attributed to holding on to old traditions despite the obvious damage it is doing to their society. For example they are still a deeply sexist society. A society that squashes diversity destroys anything new and stagnates. That is why the middle east when from a technological powerhouse and cultural centre to a backwater, and China even earlier, and the same thing would happen to western society if you had your way. That is not to say we should accept everyone and everything with open arms. It just means you have to have a valid reason for opposing something and trying to ban it, rather than responding to fear, grounded in ignorance.

This is spot on.


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Fair enough. But you still should back up your arguments with some evidence and reasoning freediver, something which you generally lack.

If I might take the opportunity to do this for him. At the end of the agricultural revolution in Europe, most countries were at the same technological level. This was largely the guild system in which technical guilds held monopolies over the technologies they understood. Excessive competition and fear of cooperation stifled innovation. At this time England passed law effectively outlawing the holding of monopolies on ideas, causing information and knowledge to be freely spread horizontally throughout society. This cultural shift was the spur for the British industrial revolution and a major reason why at this period in history Britain pulled far ahead of other European nations.

Fast track to post American revolution. By now Britain was the undisputed master of the industrial world, but it had become overly confident in its position and people were arrogant in the belief in British superiority in manufacturing. Britain produced quality products but industrialists in the USA believed they could enact a more effective system. Essentially whilst the British remained determined to produce quality goods the Americans began producing goods of 'good enough' quality at much lower expense than the British. This cultural shift from the British system in the USA to a more modern approach led to the total American dominance in manufacturing by the beginning of the 20th century, whilst Britain languished in cultural conservatism.

Interestingly that post WW2, the USA is looking a lot like England did back then, with countries like Japan leading the way in 'lean' manufacturing methods and innovative systems to allow low cost quality products over the last half century. And now as freediver points out Japan is falling victim to conservatism while China and India are dominating the global economy through their own insistence on a cultural shift.

So you see, cultural diversity is strength. And you cannot simply say "what are they bringing to our country" because you simply can not predict how people of different cultural background will change with the influence of a new environment and how their differing influence will change our current cultural environment. Technology is the currency of dominance and who is to say the next great Australian invention is not going o come from a Chinese, Indonesian or Iraqi immigrant (for instance)? Our government after all seems very confident in the importation of skills from other countries.

Just to offer some more evidence I would like to stress the example of China. A traditionalist culture in China led to its utter defeat by British imperialists, and it remained one of the most backward countries on the planet until the great leap forward, but this is only half the story. Again, cultural conservatism quickly took hold in the Chinese communist party and the economy more or less ground to a halt as it did for Russia. Deng Xiaoping ultimately acknowledged that the western culture of free market capitalism had to be adopted if China was ever to achieve any meaningful success. Again, this significant cultural shift has been the sole reason China is doing so well today.

The evidence is everywhere you look. Conservative cultures fail while those cultures that are willing to adopt change succeed due to innovation. However in order for these successful cultural changes to be able to occur the society must overall be open minded to change in the first place.

Got anything within the last 50 years, zoso, specifically culture that hasn't been contributed by European nations?  :P



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So you see, cultural diversity is strength.

No... I don't see. What you've proven is that European culture is superior and that the only thing we should be adopting from other cultures is the technology they 'might' invent. European culture is largely the same anyway, how is this 'diversity?'  :-? Do you have anything else besides 'technology?'



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Interestingly that post WW2, the USA is looking a lot like England did back then, with countries like Japan leading the way in 'lean' manufacturing methods and innovative systems to allow low cost quality products over the last half century. And now as freediver points out Japan is falling victim to conservatism while China and India are dominating the global economy through their own insistence on a cultural shift.

'Dominating' = Slave labour and paying your employees 10 cents an hour. ;)

Manufacturing methods = Working harder. Which, by the way, isn't unique to Japanese culture, any idiot can work harder.

Japan is falling victim to 'conservatism?'  :-? As far as I can see.. their economic problems are far more complex than that.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 7:30pm:

Got anything within the last 50 years, zoso, specifically culture that hasn't been contributed by European nations?  :P

China, see my second post.

Japan leads manufacturing because of innovative practices, hard work is only half the story. Toyota is world renowned for its superior management structures and 'lean' manufacturing methods, not it's hard workers.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 7:30pm:

No... I don't see. What you've proven is that European culture is superior and that the only thing we should be adopting from other cultures is the technology they 'might' invent. European culture is largely the same anyway, how is this 'diversity?'

European culture has not been an unchanging rock is my point. It has changed vastly and the European culture we have today is not that which existed during the agricultural revolution, or the industrial revolution. If you don't see that then you really won't ever see much I think - and you say you are interested in history  ::)

I think the 'just in time' philosophy for manufacturing originated in Japan and was a major factor in their economic boom - not just working hard.

freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 7:37pm:

I think the 'just in time' philosophy for manufacturing originated in Japan and was a major factor in their economic boom - not just working hard.

...also their Kaizen philosophy of continuous improvement has been very influential.

The field of science benefits enourmously from diversity. The preconcieved notions that people carry have a strong influence on the hypotheses they come up with to explain observations, and even the significance they attache to different observations. The broader the pool of ideas, the faster science progesses as it is more likely that one of those ideas will prove correct.

Someone mentioned European 'superiority' somewhere. This apparent superiority comes from Europe's diversity. Europe is divided geographically into islands (eg Great Britain), peninsulas (Italy, Spain) and by the Alps. This has lead to separate cultures, each with a land base large enough for significant economies of scale to develop, but not large enough to dominate the rest. The other major eurasian population, China, has no such geographical separators which is why it was unified so early in history. It is this unification that lead eventually to it's stagnation. The concept of superiority of European culture is meaningless as there is no European culture. There is lots of separate cultures. When these were combined in North America, along with a few others, it lead to another boom. However, the homogenisation of American culture is now starting to lead to it's stagnation.

Education makes you a better person..Nationalism> sure cant hurt!! :)

wrote on Mar 15^th, 2007 at 3:38pm:

Education makes you a better person..Nationalism> sure cant hurt!! :)

NICE !  [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Thanks Aussie Nat! ;) ;)

Sometimes though, it falls into the wrong hands.  Such as those two bastards in WA who planned to petrol bomb chinese resturaunts. They blacken the name of Australian Nationalism.

nationalism is awesome.

Classic Liberal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2007 at 4:05pm:

nationalism is awesome.

WTF! :o :o :o :o   Is that really you pender or am i seeing things?

i am a nationalist...

Australia is the greatest place on earth, and if there was a war threatening our country i would enlist and fight to defend this great country in a second.

Classic Liberal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2007 at 5:39pm:

i am a nationalist...

Nationalist or just patriotic?  What is your stance on multiculturism.?

multiculteralism is a farce.

it has never worked anywhere.

i dont disagree with the idea of intergration where people can still keep things from their former cultures as long as they become part of ours.

English is a must, so is participation in our holidays and all that.

by all means bring your food, but eat ours.

You think we should force immigrants to eat pies? What if they stop making stirfries and curries for us?

we shoudlnt force them to eat pies forever, but they should try them.

u know what i meant freediver, it wasnt just food i was talking about.

I have no idea what you were talking about. Language I can understand - they should have to learn to understand and speak english, but I have no problem with immigrants holding onto other cultural practices for as long as they want, provided they aren't illegal here or immoral. This just sounds like you are scared of things that are different.

eveyrone should be able to do everything they want, but they should try our things and not just create their own inverted societies like in lakemba thats what i meant.

thats what imeant with food, an anology, you can eat what you like but you should try our food first.

and society is not just about what is legal and illegal but, people should try and participate in things like anzac day, they should learn about our history etc.

They will have to learn about our history in school.

i know i went to school and we dont learn all that mutch.

mostly the white australia policy, and federation, hardly cultural things to make poeple proud of their nation.

I agree with you pender! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Ausnat wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 6:48pm:

I agree with you pender! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

There's a first.  :P

no it is actually the second time that has occurred :)

But a rarity nontheless