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What Muslims talk about in Mosques In a circulating DVD, a foreign sheik exhorts Muslims to take control of Australia by having more children, out-breeding non-believers. London sheik Abdul Raheem Green, who features in DVDs and CDs, is being watched by authorities. He tells one audience to Islamicise Australia through a Muslim baby boom. “The birth rate in the Western countries is going down. People are more interested in their careers . . . they don't want to have babies,” Sheik Green says in the DVD. “So don't you think, Muslim brothers and sisters, we've got a bit of an opportunity here? They're not having babies any more. So what if, instead, we have the babies?" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21361640-1702,00.html

Why do Australians continue to ignore these early warning signs?  :-?

We were warned earlier in 2006 by a Liberal MP that Australia is at risk of becoming a Muslim majority by 2050. But nooooooo, Australians said... "Muslims wouldn't do that, they're the 'RELIGION OF PEACE.'"

You don't want Australia to end up like the Middle East, Bosnia or the Phillipines do you? Like Global Warming, we shouldn't have to put our grandkids through it because of our ignorance!

Havent i been preaching this since i came to the site?
And indeed for the past 8 years.

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Havent i been preaching this since i came to the site? And indeed for the past 8 years.

No matter how many times you tell some people this AusNat, they'll ALWAYS respond with...

"It's because they were misquoted/misinterpreted."

What a joke. ::)

Its all hot air, thats why nobody cares.

As always the dead wood conservatives (muslim ones) see the writing on the wall - the truth is western culture is wiping out traditional ones and this is a reaction. I'm not saying western culture shouldn't take over, whatever people want they will have. The truth is ipods, internet and cheap reality TV shows are more appealing than old world religious doctrine. Wait till the OLPC (one laptop per child) and internet ubiquity really take hold in the third world. There is nothing to be afraid of!

Western capitalism will prevail, don't worry yourselves. But don't get all egotistical, its not some inherent superiority in western culture, it is simply that people crave freedom and our culture offers it  ;D

Muslims taking us over???Rubbish.Outbreeding us=Rubbish.You have more to worry about than that.If the moosys want Australia they can fight the indonesians for it after we have finished with it.I cannot see that by 2050 aussies will be finished as a force in their own country.Or by any date actually.All you people that can see into the future,why dont you win the lotto then if you can forsee things like this.
The world is ever changing as is our country.All you young fellas want to pull your finger out(no pun intended) and start breeding up a bit.
"stares wistfully out the window wishing he was young again"

So outbreeding someone is now an act of war and aggression?

Keep twisting those definitions and standards my friend.

And no I have no position on whether or not Islam is a religion of peace or any religion being a religion of peace for that matter since the fundamental premise of monotheistic religion is quite frankly, if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell end of story. That can only lead to certain logical conclusions, most if not all are rather non-peaceful.

DONT UNDERESTIMATE THEM...

Remember, they breed twice and three times more kids than us westerners do.

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Remember, they breed twice and three times more kids than us westerners do.

Well this is the perfect opportunity to all you people out there who are of a breeding age.  Get moving if you want to keep the caucasion race going, otherwise you'll only have yourselves to blame in 30 years time when you have a Muslim PM.

:o

mantra wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 7:03pm:

Quote: Remember, they breed twice and three times more kids than us westerners do. Well this is the perfect opportunity to all you people out there who are of a breeding age.  Get moving if you want to keep the caucasion race going, otherwise you'll only have yourselves to blame in 30 years time when you have a Muslim PM. :o

Thats the plan!

Quote:

Its all hot air, thats why nobody cares.   As always the dead wood conservatives (muslim ones) see the writing on the wall - the truth is western culture is wiping out traditional ones and this is a reaction. I'm not saying western culture shouldn't take over, whatever people want they will have. The truth is ipods, internet and cheap reality TV shows are more appealing than old world religious doctrine. Wait till the OLPC (one laptop per child) and internet ubiquity really take hold in the third world. There is nothing to be afraid of! Western capitalism will prevail, don't worry yourselves. But don't get all egotistical, its not some inherent superiority in western culture, it is simply that people crave freedom and our culture offers it

I like your optimism zoso, but I doubt it.



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Muslims taking us over???Rubbish.Outbreeding us=Rubbish.You have more to worry about than that.If the moosys want Australia they can fight the indonesians for it after we have finished with it.I cannot see that by 2050 aussies will be finished as a force in their own country.Or by any date actually.All you people that can see into the future,why dont you win the lotto then if you can forsee things like this.

The birthrate figures tell a different story, Aloof. Mathmatically, if birthrates continue the way they are, us European Australians will be a minority in a Muslim dominated country by 2050. (Before you ask, I've deleted the figures I had on file in early 2006 when it was announced).



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All you young fellas want to pull your finger out(no pun intended) and start breeding up a bit.

I agree. And I plan to have as many kids as I can to counter this Muslim plague.  ;D


Tommy6
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So outbreeding someone is now an act of war and aggression?   Keep twisting those definitions and standards my friend.

No... it's not an 'act of war,' tommy6, you're the one twisting my words... my 'friend.'

Think about it, IF (God help us) Muslims establish themselves as a majority by 2050, they will (Undoubtedly) force Islamic law onto us through our democratic vote (I'm presuming you know a great deal about these laws). These laws would discriminate and force non-Muslims to become Muslims. This is FACT. Even if Muslims DO make up a large chunk of society (Large Minority)... examples throughout the world demonstrate that this would lead to disaster (Phillipines, Cyprus, Sudan, Bosnia, France) etc etc etc. It's not a risk worth taking. Wherever Muslims go, they cause trouble.

tommy6
Quote:

And no I have no position on whether or not Islam is a religion of peace or any religion being a religion of peace for that matter since the fundamental premise of monotheistic religion is quite frankly, if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell end of story. That can only lead to certain logical conclusions, most if not all are rather non-peaceful.

And why is this? Because you choose to be ignorant on the matter.  Aka. Politically correct. Just be adventurous for once and put some research into it without political correctness dictating your judgements.


Mantra
Quote:

Well this is the perfect opportunity to all you people out there who are of a breeding age.  Get moving if you want to keep the caucasion race going, otherwise you'll only have yourselves to blame in 30 years time when you have a Muslim PM.

Well... I'll give it a shot in a few years time.  ;)

Watch france and england. :-/

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 7:19pm:

No... it's not an 'act of war,' tommy6, you're the one twisting my words... my 'friend.'

From your original post.

'We were warned earlier in 2006 by a Liberal MP that Australia is at risk of becoming a Muslim majority by 2050. But nooooooo, Australians said... "Muslims wouldn't do that, they're the 'RELIGION OF PEACE.'" '

You posited that Australia will become a muslim majority by 2050 and pre-empted objections to that conclusion by saying that Islam is a religion of peace. What does being peaceful have to do with having a physical majority UNLESS you are intimating that to be in a physical majority is inherently an act of aggression and dare I say war (cultural, ethnic or whatever you care to throw in) ? Just reading between the lines here Mr Trump.


ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 7:19pm:

Think about it, IF (God help us) Muslims establish themselves as a majority by 2050, they will (Undoubtedly) force Islamic law onto us through our democratic vote (I'm presuming you know a great deal about these laws). These laws would discriminate and force non-Muslims to become Muslims. This is FACT. Even if Muslims DO make up a large chunk of society (Large Minority)... examples throughout the world demonstrate that this would lead to disaster (Phillipines, Cyprus, Sudan, Bosnia, France) etc etc etc. It's not a risk worth taking. Wherever Muslims go, they cause trouble.

And I also assume that you understand that they can't simply force through laws willy nilly? Also, where there are disparate groups in large numbers and thrown into the same geographical area, you get problems. Northern Ireland being an excellent example.


ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 7:19pm:

And why is this? Because you choose to be ignorant on the matter.  Aka. Politically correct. Just be adventurous for once and put some research into it without political correctness dictating your judgements.

Ah but that's the thing Mr Trump, I haven't come to a judgement on the matter! I am simply of the opinion that any religion is ultimately non-peaceful if executed to its logical conclusion which is all non believers go to hell and their journey there needs to be expedited...

Also, do you believe that one cannot be Muslim and be patriotic at the same time? How about a staunch Christian and a patriot at the same time?

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You posited that Australia will become a muslim majority by 2050 and pre-empted objections to that conclusion by saying that Islam is a religion of peace. What does being peaceful have to do with having a physical majority UNLESS you are intimating that to be in a physical majority is inherently an act of aggression and dare I say war (cultural, ethnic or whatever you care to throw in) ? Just reading between the lines here Mr Trump.

Hmm... I guess you got me there.



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And I also assume that you understand that they can't simply force through laws willy nilly? Also, where there are disparate groups in large numbers and thrown into the same geographical area, you get problems. Northern Ireland being an excellent example.

And I guess you don't know how the Senate works, hey?



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I am simply of the opinion that any religion is ultimately non-peaceful if executed to its logical conclusion which is all non believers go to hell and their journey there needs to be expedited...

And would it be reasonable to say that some religions (Aka. Islam) are more violent and intolerant than others? (Aka. Christianity).



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Also, do you believe that one cannot be Muslim and be patriotic at the same time? How about a staunch Christian and a patriot at the same time?

A Muslim can be patriotic, yes. What's your point?

mantra wrote on Mar 11^th, 2007 at 7:03pm:

Quote: Remember, they breed twice and three times more kids than us westerners do. Well this is the perfect opportunity to all you people out there who are of a breeding age.  Get moving if you want to keep the caucasion race going, otherwise you'll only have yourselves to blame in 30 years time when you have a Muslim PM. :o

Exactly, i am quite amazed that people use the "they are out-breeding us" excuse when they mention muslims trying to take over.

If ur so concerned about the so-called muslim invasion, then go and have more kids. Otherwise, u have no one to blame but yourself.

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Exactly, i am quite amazed that people use the "they are out-breeding us" excuse when they mention muslims trying to take over. If ur so concerned about the so-called muslim invasion, then go and have more kids. Otherwise, u have no one to blame but yourself.

Are you doing your bit,,, COBBER?

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Exactly, i am quite amazed that people use the "they are out-breeding us" excuse when they mention muslims trying to take over.   If ur so concerned about the so-called muslim invasion, then go and have more kids. Otherwise, u have no one to blame but yourself.

Like I said before, I'll do it in a few years time.

wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 11:02am:

Quote: Exactly, i am quite amazed that people use the "they are out-breeding us" excuse when they mention muslims trying to take over. If ur so concerned about the so-called muslim invasion, then go and have more kids. Otherwise, u have no one to blame but yourself. Are you doing your bit,,, COBBER?

Yes, i have two kids so far.
But that's because i want kids, not because i need to outbreed the muslims.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 11:09am:

Quote: Exactly, i am quite amazed that people use the "they are out-breeding us" excuse when they mention muslims trying to take over.   If ur so concerned about the so-called muslim invasion, then go and have more kids. Otherwise, u have no one to blame but yourself. Like I said before, I'll do it in a few years time.

why r u waiting?
u sure the muslims won't take over in that time?

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why r u waiting?   u sure the muslims won't take over in that time?

Your sarcasm isn't amusing.  ::)

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 11:12am:

Quote: why r u waiting?   u sure the muslims won't take over in that time? Your sarcasm isn't amusing.  ::)

well, given ur strong anti-muslim stance in previous posts it gives the impression that u see Islam as being an imminent threat.

if u see it as an imminent threat, then why aren't u doing ur part?

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well, given ur strong anti-muslim stance in previous posts it gives the impression that u see Islam as being an imminent threat.   if u see it as an imminent threat, then why aren't u doing ur part?

1) Too young.
2) Haven't found right woman yet.
3) Aren't financially capable of having kids.
4) The list goes on...

I think that's a stupid thing to suggest, Gavin. I want kids, I've always wanted kids, even before I was worried about the Muslim situation. But I have to establish something that resembles a life first before doing something serious like that. My concern is the Australian men that HAVE lives, have money, are old enough, but are too selfish to have kids because they're too busy 'enjoying' their lives.

Btw... since when did I say, 'immenent?'  :-? I said they'll become a majority by 2050.

1) Too young.

How old r u? i'm assuming you have hit puberty and have a sex life. so u aren't too young to have kids.

2) Haven't found right woman yet.

Again, doesn't stop u from having kids if u have an active sex life.

3) Aren't financially capable of having kids.

Not an excuse, get a job.

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1) Too young. How old r u? i'm assuming you have hit puberty and have a sex life. so u aren't too young to have kids.   2) Haven't found right woman yet. Again, doesn't stop u from having kids if u have an active sex life.   3) Aren't financially capable of having kids. Not an excuse, get a job.

::)

good one donaldtrump, my point is u keep using excuses.
either do something about the so-called muslim invasion or stop whinging about it.

i suspect u have such hatred towards them since u need a scapegoat to blame for things that go wrong. i also suspect that deep down u don't see them as a threat, which explains why u aren't doing anything about the so-called invasion.

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good one donaldtrump, my point is u keep using excuses.   either do something about the so-called muslim invasion or stop whinging about it.

'Excuses.'  ::)
Whatever you reckon. They're educated decisions.



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How old r u? i'm assuming you have hit puberty and have a sex life. so u aren't too young to have kids.

Early twenties. I'll start having kids in my late-twenties.



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Again, doesn't stop u from having kids if u have an active sex life.

Riiiiight. ::) Why's it so urgent at this point?



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3) Aren't financially capable of having kids. Not an excuse, get a job.

University first. Full-time job later.

If I wasn't at University, then it'd be a different story, and I'd have no excuse.


Although I don't like answering personal questions, you twisted my arm with this one.

"Early twenties. I'll start having kids in my late-twenties."

that's ur decision, but u can't then complain about the muslims having more kids and they're outbreeding us. here's a thought, maybe muslims marry and have kids at a younger age, that could be a reason why they are outbreeding us.

"University first. Full-time job later.
If I wasn't at University, then it'd be a different story, and I'd have no excuse."

no one's forcing u to study at uni full time, that's ur decision. if muslims don't go to uni, or have kids while at uni, then u can't complain about them outbreeding us.

like i said before, ur just using excuses.

donaldtrump, put it this way, say the average aussie does like you and puts off having kids until they are in their late-twenty's. now, let's assume that the average muslim starts having kids in their late teens/early twenties.

so there is roughly a 5 to 10 year gap between a muslim having their first kid and u having ur first kid. during that gap, a muslim can probably have between 2 - 3 kids, compared to ur zero. when u start having kids, the muslim can continue having kids as well. hence, the case of them out-breeding you.

now having kids in ur late-twenties is ur decision, but u can't then turn around and complain about muslims out-breeding you because that's ur own choice. u can't blame muslims for u not wanting kids at a younger age.

There is strong evidence to suggest a high level of education is directly linked to a drop off in birth rate. Many Muslim immigrants come from poorly educated backgrounds, the longer they stay here, the better their education, the less kids they will have, simple.

That and we don't need to worry because Arabic kids don't necessarily grow up to become rabid Islamist Muslims...  ::)

Like I said before, consumerism is on our side, we just need to win them over with candy!

And the lot of you who are worried about a muslim invasion are paranoid nutters, you have fallen prey to Howard government propaganda that is intended to keep you fearful and mindful of an insidious enemy. This is Machiavellian bullshit, nothing more.

Quote:

the average aussie does like you and puts off having kids until they are in their late-twenty's. now, let's assume that the average muslim starts having kids in their late teens/early twenties. so there is roughly a 5 to 10 year gap between a muslim having their first kid and u having ur first kid. during that gap, a muslim can probably have between 2 - 3 kids, compared to ur zero. when u start having kids, the muslim can continue having kids as well. hence, the case of them out-breeding you.

Thats what is happening.


Quote:

now having kids in ur late-twenties is ur decision, but u can't then turn around and complain about muslims out-breeding you because that's ur own choice. u can't blame muslims for u not wanting kids at a younger age.

The difference between us and them is we are choosing careers first in order to provide A stable future for our children. Therefore the shall never see poverty.

The muslims do it because ''Allah smiles apon those who have as many kids as possible.'' This leads to overpopulation in their family THEN, poverty.

wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 1:57pm:

Quote: now having kids in ur late-twenties is ur decision, but u can't then turn around and complain about muslims out-breeding you because that's ur own choice. u can't blame muslims for u not wanting kids at a younger age. The difference between us and them is we are choosing careers first in order to provide A stable future for our children. Therefore the shall never see poverty. The muslims do it because ''Allah smiles apon those who have as many kids as possible.'' This leads to overpopulation in their family THEN, poverty.

Aussie Nationalist, ur being very dramatic, it is possible to have kids at a young age and be working at the same time so that they aren't living in poverty. i did that, i'm only 26 and already have two kids. It's not easy, but life isn't meant to be easy.

u can use the excuse of i'm building a career first, studying at uni, etc, but you can't use that excuse and then blame the muslim population for having too much kids. again, as i mentioned before, it's ur choice to delay having kids, so why blame other people? blame yourself.

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zoso wrote on Mar 12th, 2007 at 1:41pm: There is strong evidence to suggest a high level of education is directly linked to a drop off in birth rate. Many Muslim immigrants come from poorly educated backgrounds, the longer they stay here, the better their education, the less kids they will have, simple. WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP. [quote]That and we don't need to worry because Arabic kids don't necessarily grow up to become rabid Islamist Muslims...  ::)

BULLSHIT... THE PARENTS TEACH THEM.


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Like I said before, consumerism is on our side, we just need to win them over with candy!

You mean give more handouts?


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And the lot of you who are worried about a muslim invasion are paranoid nutters, you have fallen prey to Howard government propaganda that is intended to keep you fearful and mindful of an insidious enemy. This is Machiavellian bullshit, nothing more.

Wanker ;D

A few sweeping generalizations there AN.No problem with that but can you show me otherwise with a link maybe???

aloof boof wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 2:28pm:

A few sweeping generalizations there AN.No problem with that but can you show me otherwise with a link maybe???

I cant do that exactly, but heres something that might interest you.
www.speednet.com.au

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Aussie Nationalist, u sure that's all of Keysar Trad's kids?
or is that his extended family as well?

but i guess that doesn't matter anyway, if Australians are concerned, then they should have more kids to combat the growth in the muslim population (as i mentioned before).

Yes thats HIS family. :o

wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 2:46pm:

Yes thats HIS family. :o

so i take it the fully grown man in the background is his son.
and he must have three wives (given there are three woman in the pic)? or is that two wives? since one of the woman looks a bit young, so it might be his daughter.
either way, i'm surprised he hasn't been charged with polygamy yet.

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so i take it the fully grown man in the background is his son.

How old do you think Keysar trad is?


Quote:

and he must have three wives (given there are three woman in the pic)? or is that two wives? since one of the woman looks a bit young, so it might be his daughter. either way, i'm surprised he hasn't been charged with polygamy yet.

The shite muslims practice polygamy. in this country it is illegal, but you can still have lovers. that is just a moral issue which the shites dont recognise.

wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 2:54pm:

Quote: and he must have three wives (given there are three woman in the pic)? or is that two wives? since one of the woman looks a bit young, so it might be his daughter. either way, i'm surprised he hasn't been charged with polygamy yet. The shite muslims practice polygamy. in this country it is illegal, but you can still have lovers. that is just a moral issue which the shites dont recognise.

Yeah, polygamy is illegal, so don't u think it would be quite stupid of him to take a picture with his multiple wives and kids to parade around.

he would have been charged already for sure.
if he hasn't, then i suspect that pic is his extended family as well.

even so, that's one family, u have any evidence to sugest that it's the ordinary size for muslim families? if it is, then we better get cracking to keep our birth rate up as well (not that i think muslims are a threat anyway).

Quote:

Yeah, polygamy is illegal, so don't u think it would be quite stupid of him to take a picture with his multiple wives and kids to parade around.

Well he wouldnt need to worry, as i said they are probably lovers. as far as the law goes there is no binding contract between them.

wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 3:09pm:

Quote: Yeah, polygamy is illegal, so don't u think it would be quite stupid of him to take a picture with his multiple wives and kids to parade around. Well he wouldnt need to worry, as i said they are probably lovers. as far as the law goes there is no binding contract between them.

i'm pretty sure muslims take a strong stance when it comes to lovers, in the sense that sexual relations is only allowed within marriage.

so it's either this guy isn't religious as he has several "lovers", or they are his wives and if they are his wives, then he would have been charged with polygamy.

or it could be a picture of his extended family.
who knows, but posting one pic isn't proof that all muslim families are this size. and if they are, why blame them for out-breeding you? that's not their fault, that's our fault for deciding to have less kids.  

Quote:

that's our fault for deciding to have less kids.

Thats a truth. :'( :'( :'(

wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 2:03pm:

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP.

I'm afraid the science is on my side. Its is a well proven fact of nature that all animals respond to a threatening environment with higher reproductive activity. The more comfortable you are, and the greater your belief in your own survival the lower is your drive to reproduce. This is the same for every species and you can see the evidence when you compare third world birth rates to those of western nations.

Education comes into it because there is a strong link between education and social well being, generally speaking of course. There is also a strong and proven link between overall education of your society and the level of industrialisation the country has reached. Basically, knowledge = job, jobs = comfort, comfort = less breeding. Its correlation not causation I'll give you that, but there are proven links, just go look at the figures.


wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 2:03pm:

BULLSHIT... THE PARENTS TEACH THEM.

My parents taught me many things but to say that I (or any other child) grew up to believe in them is a fallacy at best, plain bullshit at worst. No sane individual will say that a child with free will, will simply swallow their parents teachings and follow them for life - PARTICULARLY strict ones, PARTICULARLY in a well educated society and PARTICULARLY when all the people around you seem to be acting just a *bit* differently.

Do all children of Christian families grow up to be Christian? (please don't just say yes for the sake of the argument... think about this)

You do know that it is a minority of the Muslim community that follow the hard-line stuff? just as it is for Christians. Even IF (big if) all children of Muslim immigrants grow up and remain Muslim, only a fraction of those are the ones you are scared of. Most Muslims are fine mate, just chill.


wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 2:03pm:

You mean give more handouts?

No I mean show them the offerings of a free market industrialised society, and show them the offerings of a free and liberal society.

If I was a young kid in Australia with strict Islamic parents forcing their dogma down my throat, I think I would take the rampant hedonism thanks and I bet a vast majority of kids would be with me.



wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 2:03pm:

Wanker ;D

Call me what you will, but you are a paranoid nut. There is no danger of muslim takeover. The only danger is in demonising a group within our society - this is how Hitler attacked the Jews, he got the people on his side first. If you want to talk societal divisions then it is far worse to point the finger at a group and say they are not welcome than to simply allow them to live and express their culture as they like... within the bounds of our laws. Muslims have no political power in this country, what are you afraid of?

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I'm afraid the science is on my side. Its is a well proven fact of nature that all animals respond to a threatening environment with higher reproductive activity. The more comfortable you are, and the greater your belief in your own survival the lower is your drive to reproduce. This is the same for every species and you can see the evidence when you compare third world birth rates to those of western nations.

Crap on, its reversed.



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If I was a young kid in Australia with strict Islamic parents forcing their dogma down my throat, I think I would take the rampant hedonism thanks and I bet a vast majority of kids would be with me.

not when you are indoctrinated from birth.


Quote:

Muslims have no political power in this country, what are you afraid of?

Havent you heard.... sheik el hilaly and keysar trad are forming an islamic party.

POLYGAMY is mentioned in some of the posts above. Yes, polygamy is legal in Sharia law and it is becoming legal in the UK by backdoor methods. Monogamy is the UK law but muslims are getting more marriages through ceremonies in the mosques. The muslims accept these as legal. The UK tax authories have now decided to recognise these polygamus marriages with respect to the inheritance tax laws. The law gets changed by stealth. Do you think the police will enforce anti-wife bashing laws in Lakemba?

wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 4:41pm:

Crap on, its reversed.

You are a fool if that is what you think. Go look at the figures. No, since I know you won't, here's a few:

Birth rate of Uganda: 47.35 births/1,000 population (2006 est.) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/ug.html
Infant mortality rate of Uganda: 62.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.) (same source)

Birth rate of Iraq: 31.98 births/1,000 population (2006 est.) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/iz.html
Infant mortality rate of Iraq: 42.61 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.) (same source)

Birth rate of Australia: 12.14 births/1,000 population (2006 est.) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/as.html
Infant mortality rate of Australia: Female: 4.22 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.) (same source)

Birth rate of the USA: 14.14 births/1,000 population (2006 est.) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/us.html
Infant mortality rate USA: 6.43 deaths/1,000 live births (same source)

You may be thinking that we are more SUCCESSFUL at raising offspring while we are comfortable, but the survival instinct in every single species on earth is to breed more when times are tough, regardless of success. This is my point, there are mountains of scientific evidence surrounding the phenomenon of birth rates in the western nations. Give it time and successive generations of scary Muslims will fall into line with our own birth rates.


wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 4:04pm:

not when you are indoctrinated from birth.

What difference does that make? We don't live in bubbles! Look around you! People are influenced by their surroundings. I am willing to bet many many Christians are 'indoctrinated' from birth and grow only to either let their beliefs slide or give up on faith altogether. What makes Islam so special and different?


wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 4:04pm:

Havent you heard.... sheik el hilaly and keysar trad are forming an islamic party.

Irrelevant! A political party is meaningless. You know there are countless socialist and communist parties in this country, they even pull votes... and they have political power by your logic?

And the Lord said "Go fourth and multiply." Or fifth. Something like that anyway. Islam is no different in that regard.

Why do Australians continue to ignore these early warning signs?

Because the same thing happened with every new immigrant group. At first they had more children, just like Euoropeans did when they got here and suddenly found they had enough to eat. And the white nutters got scared of this and tried to make a big deal of it, but luckily common sense prevailed. Eventually they all slowed down. Just because a preacher tells people to have babies doesn't mean they will.

"Muslims wouldn't do that, they're the 'RELIGION OF PEACE.'"

Right, they are making love, not war.  ;)

The birthrate figures tell a different story, Aloof. Mathmatically, if birthrates continue the way they are, us European Australians will be a minority in a Muslim dominated country by 2050. (Before you ask, I've deleted the figures I had on file in early 2006 when it was announced).

That's lucky for you I guess - that you deleted the figures that is.

Although I don't like answering personal questions....

That's a good policy to have DT.

Its is a well proven fact of nature that all animals respond to a threatening environment with higher reproductive activity. The more comfortable you are, and the greater your belief in your own survival the lower is your drive to reproduce.

Can you provide some references for this please? I am familiar with Kangaroos doing the opposite.

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 6:13pm:

Can you provide some references for this please? I am familiar with Kangaroos doing the opposite.

I provided relevant figures. I'd love to get you some articles but gotta cook dinner... :)

im so upset zoso :'(,,with your personal attacks and all that.. boohoo. :'( :'(

---

Quote:

donaldtrump, put it this way, say the average aussie does like you and puts off having kids until they are in their late-twenty's. now, let's assume that the average muslim starts having kids in their late teens/early twenties.   so there is roughly a 5 to 10 year gap between a muslim having their first kid and u having ur first kid. during that gap, a muslim can probably have between 2 - 3 kids, compared to ur zero. when u start having kids, the muslim can continue having kids as well. hence, the case of them out-breeding you. now having kids in ur late-twenties is ur decision, but u can't then turn around and complain about muslims out-breeding you because that's ur own choice. u can't blame muslims for u not wanting kids at a younger age.

Since I'm a male, I can continue to have kids until I'm about 70, correct?

DT - you are quite right.  People shouldn't have kids until they are ready.  Most westerners want to make sure that conditions are right before they bring another human being into this world.

There are two many unwanted kids around as it is.  Maybe some Muslims and other religions and races believe in having enormous families, but often there isn't the money or the time to bring some quality to your children's life.  Just churn them out regardless of whether they will grow up to be decent human beings.  Quantity not quality seems to be the way to go for many from the Middle East.

You are too young to start a family and you have the intelligence to know it.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 11:31pm:

Quote: donaldtrump, put it this way, say the average aussie does like you and puts off having kids until they are in their late-twenty's. now, let's assume that the average muslim starts having kids in their late teens/early twenties.   so there is roughly a 5 to 10 year gap between a muslim having their first kid and u having ur first kid. during that gap, a muslim can probably have between 2 - 3 kids, compared to ur zero. when u start having kids, the muslim can continue having kids as well. hence, the case of them out-breeding you. now having kids in ur late-twenties is ur decision, but u can't then turn around and complain about muslims out-breeding you because that's ur own choice. u can't blame muslims for u not wanting kids at a younger age. Since I'm a male, I can continue to have kids until I'm about 70, correct?

correct, but so does a muslim male that decides to have children early.

point is by having kids at a young age they have a head start, so it's no wonder that they are out-breeding us.

and i know it's ur decision when u want kids, that fine and i respect that. but u shouldn't then complain about muslims having more kids than you, since that's their decision and u should also respect that.

Gavin says


Quote:

point is by having kids at a young age they have a head start, so it's no wonder that they are out-breeding us

Yes they have a head start and the sacrifice of one of their many children means so little to them.  Are they having huge families so their sons can fight in wars?  

In principle you are right Gavin - the fact is that most westerners can't sacrifice their children for a cause - so it looks as though we'll eventually end up becoming extinct.

Perhaps the next century will see Australia as a nation full of factional Muslim warriors like their brothers in the middle east!  

mantra wrote on Mar 13^th, 2007 at 10:17am:

Gavin says Quote: point is by having kids at a young age they have a head start, so it's no wonder that they are out-breeding us Yes they have a head start and the sacrifice of one of their many children means so little to them.  Are they having huge families so their sons can fight in wars?   In principle you are right Gavin - the fact is that most westerners can't sacrifice their children for a cause - so it looks as though we'll eventually end up becoming extinct. Perhaps the next century will see Australia as a nation full of factional Muslim warriors like their brothers in the middle east!

Maybe so, but if it does happen then who do we blame?

the muslims? i don't think so, since they haven't done anything illegal or wrong. all they had was more kids. we can only blame ourselves for not having enough kids.

Gavin - we have too many people in the world as it is.  Maybe we need to spend more money on education instead of wars.

Whether or not the global extremist Muslim population would swap their bombs for schools - I'm not sure, but we definitely need to make this world a fairer place for everyone to live in.

If some of these developing nations with huge Muslim populations were able to access education and a reasonable standard of living from other exploitative nations - maybe they would slow down a bit.

Now that we have gone global - we need to look at sharing some of our knowledge and bounty - first by at least listening to what the Muslims (not the extremists) have to say.

ok guys lets all start banging at it like rabbits to show those bloody Muslims a thing or 2.?

With all the extra offspring we can Jihad the crap out of the Muslims, beat them at thyere own game even and have sex with many indiscriminate men and women...ooooo fun times ahead ay guys? ;



This whole arguement is so  hideously flawed and so much so, I cant even be bothered to begin to address the patheticness of it.


Baby bonus heaven for those truly dedicated.

Trump without Muslims..you cease to be.?

Quote:

DT - you are quite right.  People shouldn't have kids until they are ready.  Most westerners want to make sure that conditions are right before they bring another human being into this world. There are two many unwanted kids around as it is.  Maybe some Muslims and other religions and races believe in having enormous families, but often there isn't the money or the time to bring some quality to your children's life.  Just churn them out regardless of whether they will grow up to be decent human beings.  Quantity not quality seems to be the way to go for many from the Middle East. You are too young to start a family and you have the intelligence to know it.

Thanks for the compliments mantra. And yes, you are quite right.



Quote:

correct, but so does a muslim male that decides to have children early.   point is by having kids at a young age they have a head start, so it's no wonder that they are out-breeding us.   and i know it's ur decision when u want kids, that fine and i respect that. but u shouldn't then complain about muslims having more kids than you, since that's their decision and u should also respect that.

'Head-start?'  :-?

As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the WOMAN run out of puff... around 34... then the males stop having kids. MALES lose fertility at a very old age. After all, Charlie Chaplin was known to have kids at around 70 years old!

So as far as I'm concerned, Gav, I have all my life to have kids... and I can have more kids at 40 (So-long as my wife is young enough) than any Muslim at 21 ever could.

I think the female plays a bigger factor in this than the male... (Whereas you think it's entirely MY fault. -I don't think the male is a very big deal.

The ONLY thing I'm concerned with about muslims is that they might marry twice... whereas... a Muslim can continue to produce kids for one decade until one of his wives get too old... then he can produce kids for yet another decade with a fresh new wife.

Quote:

'Head-start?'  :-? As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the WOMAN run out of puff... around 34... then the males stop having kids. MALES lose fertility at a very old age. The ONLY thing I'm concerned with about muslims is that they might marry twice... whereas... a Muslim can continue to produce kids for one decade until one of his wives get too old... then he can produce kids for yet another decade with a fresh new wife.

They practice polygamy as well mate.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 12:23am:

And I guess you don't know how the Senate works, hey?

I do actually, unless they've changed things so that they can introduce and pass bills as they see fit, especially bills that violate common law protections on individuals as well as the constitution itself.


ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 12:23am:

And would it be reasonable to say that some religions (Aka. Islam) are more violent and intolerant than others? (Aka. Christianity).

Depends which period in history from which you wish to take a sample.


ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 12:23am:

Quote: Also, do you believe that one cannot be Muslim and be patriotic at the same time? How about a staunch Christian and a patriot at the same time? A Muslim can be patriotic, yes. What's your point?

Patriotic towards Australia?

wrote on Mar 13^th, 2007 at 5:27pm:

Quote: 'Head-start?'  :-? As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the WOMAN run out of puff... around 34... then the males stop having kids. MALES lose fertility at a very old age. The ONLY thing I'm concerned with about muslims is that they might marry twice... whereas... a Muslim can continue to produce kids for one decade until one of his wives get too old... then he can produce kids for yet another decade with a fresh new wife. They practice polygamy as well mate.

I think we should all practice polygamy!  ;D For king and country! Two wives for every man!  ;)

Quote:

Depends which period in history from which you wish to take a sample.

History smistory. Muslims have always been more violent and empire-like than Christians have throughout history.



Quote:

Patriotic towards Australia?

For Australia, no.

Quote:

I think we should all practice polygamy!  ;D For king and country! Two wives for every man!  ;)

Bloody oath mate!

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 13^th, 2007 at 4:56pm:

'Head-start?'  :-? As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the WOMAN run out of puff... around 34... then the males stop having kids. MALES lose fertility at a very old age. After all, Charlie Chaplin was known to have kids at around 70 years old! So as far as I'm concerned, Gav, I have all my life to have kids... and I can have more kids at 40 (So-long as my wife is young enough) than any Muslim at 21 ever could.

donaldtrump, by the time u hit ur late twenties and start having ur first kid, a muslim guy that is the same age as you would probably already have 2 kids. assuming that u two then breed at the same rate, then he still would out-breed you (since he already had two kids by the time u had ur first).

and why do u assume that u can have more kids at 40 than a muslim at 21? do u think muslim men can't continue having kids at that age?

History smistory. Muslims have always been more violent and empire-like than Christians have throughout history.

No they haven't. Of course, you would know this if you weren't so dismissive of history. You do realise that we are still part of the British Empire don't you? Christians dominated North America and Australia and conquered South America and a big chunk of Africa.

Quote:

donaldtrump, by the time u hit ur late twenties and start having ur first kid, a muslim guy that is the same age as you would probably already have 2 kids. assuming that u two then breed at the same rate, then he still would out-breed you (since he already had two kids by the time u had ur first).   and why do u assume that u can have more kids at 40 than a muslim at 21? do u think muslim men can't continue having kids at that age?

Do the math, Gav.

Muslim guy marries a 21 year old muslim woman at 21. He successfully has 10 kids.
Australian guy marries a 21 year-old  Australian woman at the age of 29. Successfully has 10 kids.

It wouldn't make a difference whether I'm 21 or 41. It all depends on the age of the FEMALE. That's the point I'm trying to make, Gav.

Do you understand yet?



Quote:

History smistory. Muslims have always been more violent and empire-like than Christians have throughout history. No they haven't.

Yes they have.  :P



Quote:

Of course, you would know this if you weren't so dismissive of history.

Me? Dismissive of history?  ;D That's a laugh. I'm a history junkie.  ;)



Quote:

You do realise that we are still part of the British Empire don't you?

Big deal. We colonised Australia when it was the Aboriginals land. Gee... I guess you got me there.  ::)
And if you WERE a history fanatic like yours truly, freediver, [smiley=engel017.gif], you'd realise that the British Empire made this political decision about 400 years after the Magna Carta was issued.


Quote:

The first clause declared that the Church of England would be free from interference by the Crown.

Therefore, the decision by the King of England to occupy Australia and use it as a penal colony was purely political and wasn't entirely due to the 'evils' of 'Christianity' like so many Muslims sympathisers try to make it out to be.  



Quote:

Christians dominated North America and Australia and conquered South America and a big chunk of Africa.

For North America and Africa... see above.

But for South America... I can explain in greater depth.

The Mayans, Incas and Aztecs were a PUSHOVER for the Spanish, no violence was necessary to take over compared to Islamic bloody take-overs. I think it was something like 80 Conquistidors that conquered the Aztec Civilisation alone... which was made up of MILLIONS of people.

How was this possible?

1) Aztecs believed, according to their mythology and beliefs, that a 'great white God' would come to Earth, and 'change their way of life forever.' (I'm not making this up, by the way). And you can guess what happened next... when they saw these pale looking Spaniards... on their horses (Unknown to Aztecs) and covered in steel (Which would have looked quite impressive), they were worshipped like Gods by the locals.
2) The spread of European diseases such as smallpox and the common cold caused widespread deaths among the local South American populations (They weren't used to the disease like the Aztecs were), completely unintended by the Christian sailors.
3) The Christian soldiers had orders to 'kill' whereas the Aztecs had orders to 'capture' ...so they could sacrifice their prisoners. This contributed to the massive victory by the 80-strong army *snicker* of the Spanish.


Was it the Christians desire to conquer these lands in order to convert the population? Did they conquer these lands in the name of Christianity? No... they didn't.

Originally, the general who was leading the Spanish expedition (I think his name was Mendoza), was ordered by King Charles of Spain... to 'not conquer any civilisations while on his trip.' But he disobeyed and conquered anyway, because of the gold that he found.


So you see? Christians hardly EVER conquered land because of their religion. It was mainly due to politics. However, you can argue that Christians did intentionally conquer Palestine in the 9th century in the name of Christianity (First Crusade). This was before the Magna Carta.

But at the same time... I can also excuse this invasion of Palestine by Christians due to Islamic aggression in the years prior to the invasion.

In fact, I think the Christians crusade into the Middle East was a direct result of frequent invasions of Europe by fanatical Islamic armies.

This post to be continued...

Timeline leading up to 1st Crusade

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.
635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus
636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.
637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)
638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.
638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.
639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.
643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.
644-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.
656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.
656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.
657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali
661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.
661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus
673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire
680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.
691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.
705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule.
710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.
711-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor
732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance
749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids
756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids
762 Foundation of Baghdad
785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova
789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.
800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia
807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem
809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy
813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country
831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy
850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer
855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)
837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France
869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq
909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia
928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)
937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places
937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked
960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam
966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem
969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo
c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East
973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids
1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed
1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)
1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians
1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses
1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus
1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed
1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.
1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate
1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection
1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

To be continued...

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)
1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia
1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana
1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies
1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca
1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands
1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970



So... after years of Muslims conquering civilisations... the Christians say... enough is enough.

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

Therefore, the decision by the King of England to occupy Australia and use it as a penal colony was purely political and wasn't entirely due to the 'evils' of 'Christianity' like so many Muslims sympathisers try to make it out to be.

You said Christians, not Christianity. It is not Islam that is imigrating to Australia. It is muslim people. You seem very keen to separate the historical actions of Christians from their faith, but you lump Arabs, lebs etc under the same banner of Islam.

So you see? Christians hardly EVER conquered land because of their religion. It was mainly due to politics.

You don't think politics affects the actions of muslims? Or are they mindless cogs in the mechanism of some grand conspiracy?

Quote:

Therefore, the decision by the King of England to occupy Australia and use it as a penal colony was purely political and wasn't entirely due to the 'evils' of 'Christianity' like so many Muslims sympathisers try to make it out to be. You said Christians, not Christianity. It is not Islam that is imigrating to Australia. It is muslim people. You seem very keen to separate the historical actions of Christians from their faith, but you lump Arabs, lebs etc under the same banner of Islam.

Oh great. So now your argument has come down to attacking my 'definitions?' ::) Whatever. Muslims (Oops) I mean... ISLAM... has had a far more violent history than Christians (Oops) Christianity.



Quote:

So you see? Christians hardly EVER conquered land because of their religion. It was mainly due to politics. You don't think politics affects the actions of muslims? Or are they mindless cogs in the mechanism of some grand conspiracy?

The Muslims conquer lands SOLELY to establish them as Islamic nations. It's part of their lifestyle. Ie. domination. Don't believe me? Look it up! I'm sick and tired of giving all the evidence for you and you constantly denying it!


Freediver, answer honestly, are you just replying to my posts, not because you disagree with what I'm saying, but because of your ego?  ::)

If it really is a pop. increased desired I suggest at least having 5 kids the most 9 or more. And having others Aussies too ie. friends and family. I saw the last generation with the baby boom etc. I hope to have many too. Good luck for us all.  :) I had no idea of the muslim issues down under. By 2050 the abos will be last of your worries. hehe

Zoso- your figures on the birth rate are just that. It is not as you say that birth rate increases in uncomfortable times. It seems to me by medical info. that stress causes infertility and possible miscarriage just the oppisite. So I don't see how you can to that conclusion.

wrote on Mar 15^th, 2007 at 1:20am:

Zoso- your figures on the birth rate are just that. It is not as you say that birth rate increases in uncomfortable times. It seems to me by medical info. that stress causes infertility and possible miscarriage just the oppisite. So I don't see how you can to that conclusion.

Why does nobody get it? This is a well documented phenomenon amongst developed nations! The growth rate of developed nations has flattened out while the developing nations grow rapidly DESPITE high mortality rates. It is not about SUCCESS its about shagging  ::)

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 6:13pm:

Quote: donaldtrump, by the time u hit ur late twenties and start having ur first kid, a muslim guy that is the same age as you would probably already have 2 kids. assuming that u two then breed at the same rate, then he still would out-breed you (since he already had two kids by the time u had ur first).   and why do u assume that u can have more kids at 40 than a muslim at 21? do u think muslim men can't continue having kids at that age? Do the math, Gav. Muslim guy marries a 21 year old muslim woman at 21. He successfully has 10 kids. Australian guy marries a 21 year-old  Australian woman at the age of 29. Successfully has 10 kids. It wouldn't make a difference whether I'm 21 or 41. It all depends on the age of the FEMALE. That's the point I'm trying to make, Gav. Do you understand yet?

so according to the example u gave above, now ur saying that muslim are not out-breeding us. so what was the point of this thread?

or is it that u think muslims are out-breeding us, but do not want to admit that u aren't doing ur part? like i said before, if u see them as a threat, then start breeding and don't give excuses. otherwise, stop complaining.  

Why does nobody get it? This is a well documented phenomenon amongst developed nations!

We just disagree about the causes. The decline in birth rate in developed nations has been caused by a combination of feminism, the pill, condoms, religion etc.

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2007 at 9:37am:

We just disagree about the causes. The decline in birth rate in developed nations has been caused by a combination of feminism, the pill, condoms, religion etc.

Fair enough I can accept that.

Quote:

The decline in birth rate in developed nations has been caused by a combination of feminism, the pill, condoms, religion etc.

Excellent freediver.

My theory on why the 3rd world peoples have such a high birth/death rate.
Like animals, when there is plenty of food and water around instinct takes over to breed-
When the food runs out, they die off.

It is of my opinion that they and they only are at fault, through lack of education and hygene practices.

wrote on Mar 15^th, 2007 at 1:45pm:

It is of my opinion that they and they only are at fault, through lack of education and hygene practices.

So are you saying that when they come to Australia they bring their lack of food education and clean water with them? My original point was that Australian cultural influence on third world immigrants will quickly change their breeding habits, and you either seem to agree now... or you think they bring these things with them  :-?

It is of my opinion that they and they only are at fault, through lack of education and hygene practices.

Poverty is a vicious cycle, just like wealth. Trying to apply fault is a bit absurd. That's like saying you are to blame for being born into a rich or poor society, or in a time of great wealth or miserable poverty. No place or society is exempt from either.

The Chinese, and one historical pacific island community I read about in Jared Diamond's book 'Collapse' are the only societies I am aware of that have actively chosen one course or the other. Every other society arived where they are by chance.

Quote:

So are you saying that when they come to Australia they bring their lack of food education and clean water with them? My original point was that Australian cultural influence on third world immigrants will quickly change their breeding habits, and you either seem to agree now... or you think they bring these things with them  :-?

My point was, just as in their homeland when food, water and medicine is plentiful they Breed like rabbits.
Perhaps on some our influence might change that, and thats good. if they are educated.

Some cultures/religions preach having as many children as possible no matter what and these are the poverty makers eg; fundamentalist muslims,catholics,africans etc.

Quote:

Poverty is a vicious cycle, just like wealth. Trying to apply fault is a bit absurd. That's like saying you are to blame for being born into a rich or poor society, or in a time of great wealth or miserable poverty. No place or society is exempt from either.

True, but in places of continual poverty like some African countries why do they insist on continued  breeding? its very cruel.
Going into a depression or something like that is one thing, its over in a relatively short time and far apart people will be impoverished for a while after but almost always get back on their feet.

But Africa??? no. they will always be in poverty for as long as they;

1. keep fighting tribal wars.

2. retain their dictators.

3. keep smacking.

Are you familiar with Malthus?

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2007 at 4:15pm:

Are you familiar with Malthus?

Who or what the hell is that?

He's a famous dead white guy who came up with this theory that humans are bound to live in misery. Basically, improvements in agriculture can only give linear increases in our capacity to support ourselves, whereas our population will always go up exponentially. So no matter what we do it will eventually catch up. War, famine, disease and misery are inevitable.

Many people take the view that he has been 'proven' wrong because western coutnries are limiting their population. But there are plenty of places where the 'Malthusian' prohpesy is playing out, such as Rwanda. Also, there is no guarantee that the current trend to limit population will continue. After all it is completely voluntary in all countries except China. The American people would pull out their guns before they allowed their government to try to coerce them into limitations on breeding. Furthermore the trend in the future will most likely be towards globalisation of overpopulation problems. Any breakdowns in the 'world order' that restrict international trade would put a lot more countries on the edge, which combined with mass human migration could bring Malthus' worst predictions to bear.

Basically his theory is that we are no different from animals and the current 'free for all' that has lasted a century or two is just a temporary glitch in the normal population dynamics that control all plant and animal populations.

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2007 at 6:25pm:

He's a famous dead white guy who came up with this theory that humans are bound to live in misery. Basically, improvements in  agriculture can only give linear increases in our capacity to support ourselves, whereas our population will always go up exponentially. So no matter what we do it will eventually catch up. War, famine, disease and misery are inevitable. Many people take the view that he has been 'proven' wrong because western coutnries are limiting their population. But there are plenty of places where the 'Malthusian' prohpesy is playing out, such as Rwanda. Also, there is no guarantee that the current trend to limit population will continue. After all it is completely voluntary in all countries except China. The American people would pull out their guns before they allowed their government to try to coerce them into limitations on breeding. Furthermore the trend in the future will most likely be towards globalisation of overpopulation problems. Any breakdowns in the 'world order' that restrict international trade would put a lot more countries on the edge, which combined with mass human migration could bring Malthus' worst predictions to bear.

Let that earth killing asteroid strike now! ;D

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so according to the example u gave above, now ur saying that muslim are not out-breeding us. so what was the point of this thread? or is it that u think muslims are out-breeding us, but do not want to admit that u aren't doing ur part? like i said before, if u see them as a threat, then start breeding and don't give excuses. otherwise, stop complaining.

Gavin, are you on drugs?  :-?

They are outbreeding us, I'm just saying that I as an individual will  do as much as I can to produce more kids to outbreed Muslims. And it's a fact that Australia's birthrate is going down... whilst Muslims are the ones producing kids.

Do you have any evidence that they are outbreeding us?

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 9:51am:

Do you have any evidence that they are outbreeding us?

Havent you been listening.

Take a trip to sydney and see for yourself.

That isn't meaningful evidence.

Would you like me to go out and take photographs? cause i'll do it.

I could just as easily take photos of big white families. It would mean nothing.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 12:52pm:

I could just as easily take photos of big white families. It would mean nothing.

It'd mean something to me!  I'd be very happy! ;D

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Do you have any evidence that they are outbreeding us?

What HYPOCRISY!  ::)

Why don't you practice what you preach for once, freediver?


I'll do my best to dig up evidence on this, freediver. But when I saw the stats, it was a hot topic back in Feb 2006 on the net, and I doubt they still have the records of it on file.

I'm sure it would be available somewhere, especially if it was a hot topic so recently.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 2:44pm:

What HYPOCRISY!  ::) Why don't you practice what you preach for once, freediver? I'll do my best to dig up evidence on this, freediver. But when I saw the stats, it was a hot topic back in Feb 2006 on the net, and I doubt they still have the records of it on file.

I doubt any meaningful and trustworthy stats exist. What trustworthy statistical authority would go out on a limb to draw such a comparison?

I still don't understand how you guys think that hard line Muslim parents are actually going to succeed in raising hard line Muslim children in a free liberal society?! Do you even remember being a teenager? If 90% of all other parents can't keep their teenagers in line what on earth makes the scary Muslims so different?? Have they found the secret to perfect parenting?? I doubt it! Paranoid delusions...

David Hicks, and some of the London bombers I believe, were 'good clean white people' who had recently converted to Islam.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 3:03pm:

David Hicks, and some of the London bombers I believe, were 'good clean white people' who had recently converted to Islam.

Ha Ha i got you now FD-

David hicks was mentally unstable AND,,,,, The london bombers were british born PAKISTANIS and a black person.

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I doubt any meaningful and trustworthy stats exist. What trustworthy statistical authority would go out on a limb to draw such a comparison? I still don't understand how you guys think that hard line Muslim parents are actually going to succeed in raising hard line Muslim children in a free liberal society?! Do you even remember being a teenager? If 90% of all other parents can't keep their teenagers in line what on earth makes the scary Muslims so different?? Have they found the secret to perfect parenting?? I doubt it! Paranoid delusions...

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David Hicks, and some of the London bombers I believe, were 'good clean white people' who had recently converted to Islam.

Blah blah blah blah.


Face it guys, you know nothing about Islam.

And btw freediver... if a white guy converts to Islam.. it's the same result. Did anyone say anything about race?

If people start changing religions in throws the whole breeding issue out the window.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 3:13pm:

If people start changing religions in throws the whole breeding issue out the window.

BULL! ::) It just intensifys the problem- its not ''arabs'' that are the problem, its the religion of ISLAM.

but the whole breeding issue still goes out the window, right?

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If people start changing religions in throws the whole breeding issue out the window.

Yeah... so would you accept that freediver? The entire nation converting to Islam?

No, I'm just pointing out that this scaremongering over breeding is rediculous.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 3:16pm:

but the whole breeding issue still goes out the window, right?

READ CAREFULLY.


I T      M A K E S      I T      W O R S E .

D O     Y O U    U N D E R S T A N D     N O W ?

Or it makes it better. Unless you think that people only convert one way. Is that what you think?

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No, I'm just pointing out that this scaremongering over breeding is rediculous.

News-flash: It's not scaremongering.

yes it is

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Or it makes it better.

PLEASE EXPLAIN.

If people convert the other way, there is nothing for you scare people with.

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 3:37pm:

If people convert the other way, there is nothing for you scare people with.

What do you mean?
Aussies turning to islam?  or
muslims turning in to christians?

wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 3:43pm:

What do you mean? Aussies turning to islam?  or muslims turning in to christians?

He means what I have been saying. Muslims adopting Australian culture, why do you think it won't happen (give me 20 years and I'll demonstrate that it will).

I'll repeat, since neither of you seem to be able to rebut (nice argument there Trump: "blah blah blah", very strong indeed)

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I still don't understand how you guys think that hard line Muslim parents are actually going to succeed in raising hard line Muslim children in a free liberal society?! Do you even remember being a teenager? If 90% of all other parents can't keep their teenagers in line what on earth makes the scary Muslims so different?? Have they found the secret to perfect parenting?? I doubt it! Paranoid delusions...

So have they found the secret to perfect parenting? Because I'd be interested to know what it is?

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He means what I have been saying. Muslims adopting Australian culture, why do you think it won't happen (give me 20 years and I'll demonstrate that it will).

We'll see.

wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 3:55pm:

We'll see.

We shall... and I look forward to it.

Oh and perfect parenting? Come on you either have something 'intelligent' to say or you know the answer, and that is a resounding NO.

You don't have to wait twenty years. There's sufficient evidence around now. It's just that no-one can be bothered collecting it because no-one takes this 'outbreeding' stuff seriously enough.

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I'll repeat, since neither of you seem to be able to rebut (nice argument there Trump: "blah blah blah", very strong indeed)

It's a better reply than your 'A majority of Australians support Multiculturalism and Muslims.'    ;)

Or even if I do give evidence... you just respond with a few paragraphs of "Australians love multiculturalism. Muslims will eventually become Australian. The Muslims who cause trouble are only the minority. Most Muslims are moderate Muslims. Multiculturalism creates strength."

You have an excuse for everything. I don't know why I even bother trying to reason with you guys anymore. It just bores the crap out of me.



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I still don't understand how you guys think that hard line Muslim parents are actually going to succeed in raising hard line Muslim children in a free liberal society?!

I'll tell ya what, they're doing a pretty good job of it in Lakemba and Bankstown. What they do is they create large large communities and exist as a society in itself without the influence of Australian culture. It's happened in France, and I think you're pretty nieve to think it can't happen here. It's a trend throughout all western countries.



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Do you even remember being a teenager? If 90% of all other parents can't keep their teenagers in line what on earth makes the scary Muslims so different??Have they found the secret to perfect parenting?? I doubt it!

Because... Muslims are far more strict. Beating a kid or wife is not forbidden in an Islamic household. They pray 5 times a day. A Muslim kid lives a much stricter life. You should know this.

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Do you even remember being a teenager? If 90% of all other parents can't keep their teenagers in line what on earth makes the scary Muslims so different??Have they found the secret to perfect parenting?? I doubt it!

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Because... Muslims are far more strict. Beating a kid or wife is not forbidden in an Islamic household. They pray 5 times a day. A Muslim kid lives a much stricter life. You should know this.

from my own experience, i've found that the stricter the household, the more the teenager rebels.

do u remember what it was like when u were a teenager? when something was forbidden, the more u wanted it.

It's boring because you are keeping it so superficial DT. Dig a little deeper. We are just pointing out that you don't have a solid case.

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from my own experience, i've found that the stricter the household, the more the teenager rebels.   do u remember what it was like when u were a teenager? when something was forbidden, the more u wanted it.

This may shock you, Gavin... but people under Islam are raised differently. Therefore, you cant compare the two.

GASP! SHOCK AND A HALF!  :o



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It's boring because you are keeping it so superficial DT. Dig a little deeper. We are just pointing out that you don't have a solid case.

LOL... I'M FAILING TO DIG A 'LITTLE DEEPER???'

Pot... kettle... black.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 5:17pm:

Quote: from my own experience, i've found that the stricter the household, the more the teenager rebels.   do u remember what it was like when u were a teenager? when something was forbidden, the more u wanted it. This may shock you, Gavin... but people under Islam are raised differently. Therefore, you cant compare the two. GASP! SHOCK AND A HALF!  :o

how r they raised differently? Please explain.

i mean what makes their upbringing so different that they will not rebel when they become teenagers.

DT you are the one trying to prove a point. Until you do it is not up to us to try to disprove it. We can see from your reliance on photos and soundbites that there isn't much to this.

If they leave their religion or disobey in any way, they're dead.

Christianity teaches forgiveness.. the Koran does not... if you screw up once... Allah does NOT forgive.

If they misbehave, they're beaten severely (And I DO mean severely by their father).

They pray five time a day.

If their daughters date Australian men... they're either disowned or beaten. The other way around though (Men dating Australian women) is acceptable... because men are superior and can 'teach' an Australian woman to be Muslim.

The list goes on... but I think I'm done for today.

Quote:

DT you are the one trying to prove a point. Until you do it is not up to us to try to disprove it. We can see from your reliance on photos and soundbites that there isn't much to this.

WTF?  :o

Where have I failed to prove a point?

So far, I've proven that you guys are ful of sh1t and can't prove anything you're claiming... and now you're requesting that 'I' dig a little deeper?

Fine.. I will... disprove what I said above... if you can... you clueless bigot.

I've delivered evidence almost everytime... whereas you've failed almost everytime.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 5:29pm:

If they leave their religion or disobey in any way, they're dead. Christianity teaches forgiveness.. the Koran does not... if you screw up once... Allah does NOT forgive. If they misbehave, they're beaten severely (And I DO mean severely by their father). They pray five time a day. If their daughters date Australian men... they're either disowned or beaten. The other way around though (Men dating Australian women) is acceptable... because men are superior and can 'teach' an Australian woman to be Muslim. The list goes on... but I think I'm done for today.

donaldtrump, u do realise these muslims are living in Australia, don't you? they only make up 2% of the total population and are bound to run into the other 98% at some point in their lives.

so, ur saying that this 2% will not be influenced at all by the remaining 98%?

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 5:17pm:

This may shock you, Gavin... but people under Islam are raised differently. Therefore, you cant compare the two. GASP! SHOCK AND A HALF!  :o

In Australia, they are still exposed to the surroundings which involves an overwhelming influence that is entirely outside of their parents control. This influence is what I am talking about. You CAN compare the two when the child is raised in THIS country. You might have a point if we were talking about Iran or Afghanistan.

Gavin has it - the stricter the upbringing, the harder a teenager will rebel. And given the obvious 'temptations' these teenagers will be exposed to in this country, I have doubts for any Muslim parents to keep the concepts of freedom and liberalism from their children.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 5:35pm:

you clueless bigot.

Didn't you just say something about introducing the pot to the kettle?  ;D

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 5:29pm:

If they leave their religion or disobey in any way, they're dead.

So was my dad when he was a kid... know what? He ran away from home... My father came from the most gruesomely violent immigrant household you could imagine, and yet he rebelled... you see that Trump? you see the logic here?

If they leave their religion or disobey in any way, they're dead.

Not if they are in Australia.

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If they leave their religion or disobey in any way, they're dead. Not if they are in Australia

I've heard differently.  There have been murders and beatings of Muslim teenaged girls in Australia, but they've been kept very quiet.  There have been reports of them being kept in their rooms for a couple of  years and stabbed and beaten by their father and brothers.

Obviously nowhere near the extent to which it would happen in their country of origin - but there are isolated cases here.

So you heard about this, but the media and law enforcement didn't?

Followers of Islam have no respect for women but I also notice this in a lot of Lebanese Christians. Women are dogs to them. Plebs!
>:(

The sons of arabic people are told that they are the gift of God and everything else is under them.

In saying all this, I have met some nice lebanese people but, what they are like behind closed doors is anyone's guess. We have a problem in our society and I am actually thinking about voting for the Christian Democratic Party because they are the only party to focus on the real issues in this country. They also give preferences to Liberal.
:)

Quote:

author=enviro link=1173594949/120#127 date=1174038415]Followers of Islam have no respect for women but I also notice this in a lot of Lebanese Christians. Women are dogs to them. Plebs! >:( The sons of arabic people are told that they are the gift of God and everything else is under them.

Here Here mate.

Enviro is an intelligent man!

Where have I failed to prove a point?

Everywhere. DT, the examples you gave are meaningful to you because they are anecdotal evidence in support of your view. But to everyone else they are just anecdotal evidence in support of your view. They prove nothing. They do however fit a pattern that has been repeated over and over throughout history. That is, a member of the clear majority scaremongering over the intentions of a minorty group and trying to tar them all with the same brush. What follows is either a sound denouncing of that scaremongering, which then turns out to be baseless, or a great evil. So you will obviously have to come up with more than a few interesting photos to prove that we need to worry more about the muslims than we do about you.

Freediver


Quote:

So you heard about this, but the media and law enforcement didn't

Over the past 20 years or so - there have been various reports of female imprisonment etc and manslaughter on some occasions - but a big deal has never been made of it.  In a similar manner to child killings - they really don't rate much of a mention at all, particularly if a family member was the perpetrator.  What happens to young Muslim women when they are sent out of Australia for an arranged marriage - many aren't heard of again and does anyone care about their fate?


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So let's not beat about the bush. John Howard was right to point to the inequality confronting some Muslim women. But it is a shame the Prime Minister did not elaborate further. This is not about the banalities bandied about by Australian feminists obsessed with glass ceilings, pay discrepancies and men not changing the right number of nappies. Though rarely reported in the Australian media, for some Muslim girls living in liberal Western nations, a lack of equality means being yanked from school lest they get too educated. It means genital mutilation, forced marriages, beatings, intimidation, domestic slavery. And for some who want to dress and live like the rest of us, it can mean becoming another victim of honour killings. Last year there were eight honour killings in Berlin. According to Papatya, a Turkish women's group, there have been 40 such cases across Germany in the past decade. Some reports suggest the numbers are higher. It makes for horrifying reading. A girl beaten to death by her brothers with a hockey stick because she slept with her boyfriend. A young girl strangled by her father because she had a boyfriend. Earlier this year, a court in Denmark sentenced nine members of a family for the honour killing of 18-year-old Ghazala Khan. She had married an Afghan man against her father's wishes. According to The Brussels Journal, Khan's brother, who pulled the trigger, went to prison along with her father, her aunt, two uncles and other family members who colluded in her slaying at a local train station. It's happening in Britain, too. In 2002, a Kurdish immigrant from Iraq stabbed his 16-year-old daughter and slashed her throat over a bathtub. Her crime? She had an 18-year-old boyfriend. Since then, there are reports that a police review of 22 domestic homicides last year led to 18 being reclassified as "murder in the name of so-called honour" and to Scotland Yard reopening investigations into more than 100 suspicious deaths during a 10-year period that may have involved family conspiracies to murder Muslim women. It may only be the tip of the iceberg. Other Muslim girls are sent back to Muslim countries where they are murdered away from prying Western eyes. In Australia, we need to be asking some serious questions. We know we have problems, though not on the same scale as Europe, with a small group of Muslims refusing to integrate and rejecting the most basic Western values. Last month Faheem Khalid Lodhi was sentenced to 20 years for terrorism. Muslim boys have been jailed for a horrible series of gang rapes. If we have no idea about oppression meted out to Muslim women at the hands of Muslim men in Australia, that's because those in a position to know are not talking. Instead, any attempt to highlight the problems is met with a swift and predictable response. After Howard's comments last week, out came the cry of discrimination. Muslims would be alienated, said our Muslim leaders. If these are the responses from so-called moderate Muslim leaders, it's little wonder they are fast losing credibility on a crucial issue confronting Western nations. That same reaction kept the murder and mistreatment of Muslim women under wraps in Europe for too long. As Blair government minister Mike O'Brien said years ago, multiculturalism became an excuse for "moral blindness". Most disappointingly, this multicultural moral blindness has silenced our feminists. Instead, it's left to a conservative Prime Minister, derided by feminist critics as Mr 1950s Picket-Fence Man, to make headlines about the inequality facing some Muslim women.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/news/the-australian-2006-09-06.html

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Everywhere. DT, the examples you gave are meaningful to you because they are anecdotal evidence in support of your view. But to everyone else they are just anecdotal evidence in support of your view. They prove nothing. They do however fit a pattern that has been repeated over and over throughout history. That is, a member of the clear majority scaremongering over the intentions of a minorty group and trying to tar them all with the same brush. What follows is either a sound denouncing of that scaremongering, which then turns out to be baseless, or a great evil. So you will obviously have to come up with more than a few interesting photos to prove that we need to worry more about the muslims than we do about you.

It took you that long to respond, freediver?  ::)

Look mate, take France as a case study of what happens to western societies when it becomes tolerant of Muslims. Just look it up for yourself.

Here's another case study: Sweden.
How's about this little gem:

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http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,529910,00.html Malmø, Sweden. The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Rosengård, Malmø, for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized. "Something drastic has to be done, or much more blood will be spilled" says one of the locals. http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10092861 The number of people emigrating from the city of Malmø is reaching record levels. Swedes, who a couple of decades ago decided to open the doors to Muslim "refugees" and asylum seekers, are now turned into refugees in their own country and forced to flee their homes. The people abandoning the city mention crime and fear of the safety of their children as the main reason for leaving. http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10090830 ALL of the 600 windows at one of the schools in Malmø have been broken during the summer holiday. Window smashing alone costs the city millions every year. City buses have been forced to avoid the immigrant ghetto, as they are met with youths throwing rocks or bottles at them if they enter. Earlier this year, a boy of Afghan origin had made plans to blow up his own school.

Scaremongering did you say?

I couldn't be bothered continuing this thread.

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Look mate, take France as a case study of what happens to western societies when it becomes tolerant of Muslims. Just look it up for yourself

Absobloodylutely.

Lets not forget London. >:(

---

They breed like most 3rd world inhabitants.



"LONDON: Mohammed is on track to become the most popular boy's name in England and Wales by next year. This year the name, in its various forms, was second only to Jack, which has been top for the past 13 years.

But there were just 385 more children called Jack, and because of the high birth rate among Muslim families, the name is set to become the most popular boy's name by next year.

While Mohammed is in 17th place, its position is No. 2 if all 14 variant spellings of the name are taken into account."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/world/mohammed-to-pip-jack-as-no-1-name/2007/12/20/1197740468204.html

and this is the muslims fault because???