Hi Abu & Malik,

Good of you to take up the role of moderator. I can only suggest and hope that this board will allow discussion of Islam as a religion and not degenerate into a political slanging match. Congratulations and enjoy!

:) :) :)

Thanks Acid. :)

I am hoping to write a small post with some guidelines about etiquette when posting here.

I don't want to stifle any kind of free debate and even criticism/challenge of Islam as an ideology and it's history but basically just want to ensure that it remains nice and friendly, and is based on a sincere and mature desire to expose the reality.

Might I suggest you do some research into progressive Islam, so as not to give people the idea that the form of Islam that you and Malik adhere to is not the only option.

mozzaok wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 8:35pm:

Might I suggest you do some research into progressive Islam, so as not to give people the idea that the form of Islam that you and Malik adhere to is not the only option.

What is progressive Islam Mozza, please inform us.

So, will this be like muslimvillage in here? Because you may as well ban me now.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 8:53pm:

So, will this be like muslimvillage in here? Because you may as well ban me now.

Why, are you incapable of having fruitful dialogue where you can disagree with others in a way which is not insulting or disrespectful to their beliefs?

Because that's just proper manners and courtesy that one should have for their fellow man even when not talking about religion.

Because, simply stating an opinion, a certain like or dislike, a cartoon or blog or article unfavourable to muslims, or a separate belief system, IS insulting and disrespectful to Islam and muslims. There can be no true dialogue because it's stifled under the guise of disrespect.

And don't give me that crap about manners. You posted a photo of a fire and told me to enjoy hell. You're a hypocrite.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 9:40pm:

And don't give me that crap about manners. You posted a photo of a fire and told me to enjoy hell. You're a hypocrite.

And I'm sorry for that, I had assumed you were offering the pork to Abu.

My sincerest apologies.

Well, that's my point. So what if I was. Pork is not offensive to me, just because it is for you, or abu, doesn't mean I can't say that I like it without being told I'm lying about liking the taste of "filthy swine". It's always all about what you may find offensive, there is no give and take, it's all take, take, take.

I respect your right to believe what you believe. But that's as far as it goes. I don't believe what you do, and I don't respect what you believe either. I'm not going to pretend that I do.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 9:38pm:

Because, simply stating an opinion, a certain like or dislike, a cartoon or blog or article unfavourable to muslims, or a separate belief system, IS insulting and disrespectful to Islam and muslims. There can be no true dialogue because it's stifled under the guise of disrespect.

Surely you were brought up with enough manners and logic to know the difference between disagreeing and insulting. Many people go onto the Muslimvillage website and disagree with Muslims with no hassles at all, it's only people who outwardly go on trying to troll, insult Islam and the Prophet pbuh that get banned.

How do you expect to have productive and fruitful dialogue when you are putting up degrading cartoons and hurling insults at another's religion?

There's a big difference, if you aren't prepared to have fruitful and productive dialogue then feel free not to post on this forum.

If you are willing to have proper discussions with manners and using ettiquite then please do, we'd love to chat.

As I stated, there can be no true dialogue because it's stifled under the guise of disrespect.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 9:54pm:

Well, that's my point. So what if I was. Pork is not offensive to me, just because it is for you, or abu, doesn't mean I can't say that I like it without being told I'm lying about liking the taste of "filthy swine". It's always all about what you may find offensive, there is no give and take, it's all take, take, take.

Well there's a big difference, one is showing your love for it. Which is fine. But when you try and impose it on another in an attempt to insult them then that isn't appropriate.

I agree that Abu_Rashid shouldn't have told you what you like and don't like.


jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 9:54pm:

I respect your right to believe what you believe. But that's as far as it goes. I don't believe what you do, and I don't respect what you believe either. I'm not going to pretend that I do.

Who says you have to respect what we believe? No one's asked you to at all. But there should be appropriate respect for those who you are having dialogue with by not insulting their beliefs.

How on earth do you expect to have any fruitful dialogue when you are insulting the things which are dearest to them?

If you aren't prepared to have that fruitful dialogue then don't post.. It's that simple.

Point proven.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:00pm:

As I stated, there can be no true dialogue because it's stifled under the guise of disrespect.

Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn how to debate someone respectfully then.

If you can't then you are seriously lacking some very important life skills.

Ad hominem already?

Classy chap.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:02pm:

Ad hominem already? Classy chap.

It's not an attack on you at all.

YOU are the one who believes you can't have respectful and productive debates with others without insults. That is a serious problem and will only impede in your life.

The ability to be able to disagree respectfully is pretty important to have to get by in life.

mozza,


Quote:

Might I suggest you do some research into progressive Islam, so as not to give people the idea that the form of Islam that you and Malik adhere to is not the only option.

Feel free to start a thread detailing for us what you think this new "progressive Islam" to be. Sorry I've just never heard of it before.

Just a point though that I might add. Islam is what Islam is. If someone takes Islam and tries to make it like something else, to conform it to someone elses beliefs (ie. to make it palatable for the West) is it really Islam anymore? It's like someone coming along and saying "Let's create a progressive communism" and then they do away with the communes and the state ownership and the planned economy any so forth and then say "Well here's our new progressive communism". It's no longer communism.

I think you just need to come to the realisation that Islam is a constant. Sure it has room to deal with new issues arising, but it will only ever be based on the original teachings. There's absolutely no room for cancelling the original teachings and inventing new ones. In this way Islam is very different from Christianity, and even to some extent Judaism, the strength of Islam is in it's consistency and in it's staunch adherence to sound principles. These are the things you're suggesting we strip from it, and I'm sad to break it to you, but it ain't gonna happen.

jordan,


Quote:

Because, simply stating an opinion, a certain like or dislike, a cartoon or blog or article unfavourable to muslims

How is posting a cartoon part of any dialogue? You know full well you just want to do it to be mischievous, and to prove "see nobody's going to tell me what I can and can't do", you're like a rebellious little teenager, please grow up a little. this just indicates you're not sincerely interested in fruitful and mature dialogue, you just want to misbehave like a naughty little child, testing the limits.

Instead of harking on about how you might get banned, you should seriously look at the pathetically childish image you're portraying to others.

Malik Shakur wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:11pm:

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1st, 2008 at 10:02pm: Ad hominem already? Classy chap. It's not an attack on you at all. YOU are the one who believes you can't have respectful and productive debates with others without insults. That is a serious problem and will only impede in your life. The ability to be able to disagree respectfully is pretty important to have to get by in life.

That's the whole problem, the one you're not understanding or conveniently ignoring. By disagreeing, one's being disrespectful.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:13pm:

How is posting a cartoon part of any dialogue? You know full well you just want to do it to be mischievous, and to prove "see nobody's going to tell me what I can and can't do", you're like a rebellious little teenager, please grow up a little. this just indicates you're not sincerely interested in fruitful and mature dialogue, you just want to misbehave like a naughty little child, testing the limits. Instead of harking on about how you might get banned, you should seriously look at the pathetically childish image you're portraying to others.

You came in with all guns blazing telling me I'm a liar and I don't really like this or that and so on....so I don't think I'll be taking any advice from you about how childish you think I'm being. I haven't seen too much in the way of mature dialogue from you. You make far too many assumptions and I don't respect how you present yourself.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:16pm:

Malik Shakur wrote on Aug 1st, 2008 at 10:11pm: jordan484 wrote on Aug 1st, 2008 at 10:02pm: Ad hominem already? Classy chap. It's not an attack on you at all. YOU are the one who believes you can't have respectful and productive debates with others without insults. That is a serious problem and will only impede in your life. The ability to be able to disagree respectfully is pretty important to have to get by in life. That's the whole problem, the one you're not understanding or conveniently ignoring. By disagreeing, one's being disrespectful.

That's not true at all. Many people go on Muslimvillage.net and disagree with no consequences. They still post on the forums because they are not disrespectful and don't insult.

It's sad that you seem to think disagreeing with someone is disrespecting them. I'd imagine life might be quite difficult for you.

See, that's the thing. You try really hard to take the moral high ground, be the good debater, the polite poster.....and then have to get a little dig in all the same, about my life, my person....some little comment to try and make me feel bad about who I am. You almost have people fooled into believing you're a kind, gentle, diplomatic poster.....but you just can't quite keep it together enough....the real you comes out in the end.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:25pm:

See, that's the thing. You try really hard to take the moral high ground, be the good debater, the polite poster.....and then have to get a little dig in all the same, about my life, my person....some little comment to try and make me feel bad about who I am. You almost have people fooled into believing you're a kind, gentle, diplomatic poster.....but you just can't quite keep it together enough....the real you comes out in the end.

No, the fact is I'm willing to give everyone a chance.. But when they've shown themselves to be trolls who are only there to incite hate and insult then I don't treat them kindly.

You have the opportunity to not be like that and argue with us instead while using manners and having some ettiquitte, We'd be happy to speak with you on these terms.

Many Christian friends and I debate often about religion with no hassles, because we all respect each other enough to not outwardly go out and insult each other.

Why can't you do that?

Even Sprintcyclist is welcome to come into this forum and post if he's willing to do it without insulting and inciting hatred.

His slate can be clean and we can start over. I'm sure that he'd make some very good points and debate well.

Because in our first dialogues with one another, you both behaved in a way contrary to how you dictate I should behave. So, respect doesn't exist.

You want this "Islam" topic to be free from criticism, independent thought and anything that may be offensive?

Go for it.

Oh yeah, I don't want to be sued, either.

Pathetic.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:39pm:

Because in our first dialogues with one another, you both behaved in a way contrary to how you dictate I should behave. So, respect doesn't exist. You want this "Islam" topic to be free from criticism, independent thought and anything that may be offensive? Go for it.

As I mentioned, if you can't have dialogue that includes criticism and independent thought without actually going out and insulting people then no.. Please don't post here..

But if you are capable of having debate without such behaviour then that's great. Post ahead.

I do lots of interfaith work with Christians and Jews and we always disagree and debate with each other, but it doesn't turn into discussions where we insult or try and offend each other.

Thats because we respect each other.

How nice for you, the christians and the jews.

You say you require respect. I haven't seen you or abu respect me since I've been here. But please do continue living in your fantasy land of your perfection and everyone elses rudeness.

Yet another example of free speech being stifled by religion.

Enjoy your little love-in.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:48pm:

How nice for you, the christians and the jews. You say you require respect. I haven't seen you or abu respect me since I've been here. But please do continue living in your fantasy land of your perfection and everyone elses rudeness. Yet another example of free speech being stifled by religion. Enjoy your little love-in.

Really? I'm only human, I apologized sincrely for my mistake as you had not actually offered the pork to Abu. If you can't accept an apology then that's up to you. But I am sincere in that apology.

You however have insulted Islam and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh several times, initially you were the one first to show disrespect by saying Islam is a vile religion etc.

Don't play the victim when you are also to blame.

Malik Shakur wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 10:55pm:

You however have insulted Islam and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh several times, initially you were the one first to show disrespect by saying Islam is a vile religion etc.

I think it is. That's my right to have that opinion. You call it disrespect. I call it the truth.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 11:03pm:

Malik Shakur wrote on Aug 1st, 2008 at 10:55pm: You however have insulted Islam and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh several times, initially you were the one first to show disrespect by saying Islam is a vile religion etc. I think it is. That's my right to have that opinion. You call it disrespect. I call it the truth.

no, it's insulting..

that's your problem.. you can't disagree without insulting other people. Others can..

To you, it's insulting. We are not all you. Get it?

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 11:14pm:

To you, it's insulting. We are not all you. Get it?

You call it vile. that is insulting. Don't you get it?

Quote:

You came in with all guns blazing telling me I'm a liar and I don't really like this or that and so on.

Actually I don't remember calling you a liar.

I just pointed out you were 'laying it on a bit thick', with the whole swine and grog bit.

I think it was quite obvious that what I said was in jest, as I assumed you were doing as well. I've never seen anyone seriously enter a thread and out of the blue proclaim they love swine and grog..

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 11:21pm:

Quote: You came in with all guns blazing telling me I'm a liar and I don't really like this or that and so on. Actually I don't remember calling you a liar. I just pointed out you were 'laying it on a bit thick', with the whole swine and grog bit. I think it was quite obvious that what I said was in jest, as I assumed you were doing as well. I've never seen anyone seriously enter a thread and out of the blue proclaim they love swine and grog..

Really?

"Since I have been a non-Muslim before, I'm well aware of the taste of such beverages, and I don't know who you're trying to kid, but they are certainly not enjoyable. Most Aussies drink for intoxication, pure and simple."

"I doubt pork is any Aussie's favourite food....."

It wasn't obvious in the slightest what you said was in jest. And if those quotes above aren't you insinuating that I was lying, then I'll go he.

Malik Shakur wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 11:20pm:

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1st, 2008 at 11:14pm: To you, it's insulting. We are not all you. Get it? You call it vile. that is insulting. Don't you get it?

Yes. Don't you get it that I don't care? It's my right to have my opinion on it. You have no jurisdiction over what I can and can't believe or what I can and can't think about Islam.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 11:28pm:

Yes. Don't you get it that I don't care? It's my right to have my opinion on it. You have no jurisdiction over what I can and can't believe or what I can and can't think about Islam.

You're entitled to your opinion. But don't come and spread your hate and insult here. It's not welcome.

If you're not happy to have respecful dialogue then don't post here.

It's that simple.

Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

Malik Shakur wrote on Aug 1^st, 2008 at 11:39pm:

jordan484 wrote on Aug 1st, 2008 at 11:28pm: Yes. Don't you get it that I don't care? It's my right to have my opinion on it. You have no jurisdiction over what I can and can't believe or what I can and can't think about Islam. You're entitled to your opinion. But don't come and spread your hate and insult here. It's not welcome. If you're not happy to have respecful dialogue then don't post here. It's that simple.

I should have been clearer. I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm entitled to voice it. You don't like? You find it offensive? Too bad, deal with it and realise your views are not the only views in the world. You simply cannot except that you stifle free speech with your restrictive "don't come in here and spread hate/insult Islam" speech. You've proven by your behaviour what's wrong with Islam. People are not allowed to express a point of view that may be offensive to Muslims. You make laws against it, you kill people for it, you threaten legal action over it. And that's one of the reasons I find it so vile.

Debate is one thing but if your just going to toe the Islamic party line, there is not much use in having a debate, all religions and cultures have had their bad times but most have moved on, lets hope others can too.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2008 at 12:46pm:

I should have been clearer. I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm entitled to voice it. You don't like? You find it offensive? Too bad, deal with it and realise your views are not the only views in the world. You simply cannot except that you stifle free speech with your restrictive "don't come in here and spread hate/insult Islam" speech. You've proven by your behaviour what's wrong with Islam. People are not allowed to express a point of view that may be offensive to Muslims. You make laws against it, you kill people for it, you threaten legal action over it. And that's one of the reasons I find it so vile.

Oh please! It IS possible to debate, express your point of view and argue here without resorting to insults or inciting hatred. You ARE entitled to your opinion but your opinion can NOT include insulting and inciting hate in people's religion, religious texts or religious figures. That's common courtesy, manners and respect. Were you not brought up knowing how to do that? If not I feel very sorry for you because without such skills it means your incapable of having dialogue with others you don't agree with. It means that you will only know a life of conflict.

If you are not capable of doing so feel free not to post on this forum.

You're not able to get through one post without resorting to questioning my person, my upbringing or my "life skills". You are not understanding what I'm saying, clearly. By simply having different opinions on Islam THAT may be "insulting" or "disrespectful" or even at a stretch "inciting hatred". The judgment is yours, and that's where it becomes a lack of freedom because I don't find the same things insulting, why is "your" truth "your" belief any more important than mine. That's rhetorical. It isn't. I don't wish any harm upon you, or any muslim, or any person, but if my opinions insult you then that's something you're going to have to deal with. Your carry on about my person in every post you make may be construed by me as insulting, but you know what, I'm going to suck it up and allow you the right to say it. Why? Because you have the freedom to do so. Welcome to the civilised world, my friend.

jordan, he is a uni student.

Quite obviously he has been everywhere and done everything.

easel wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2008 at 2:14pm:

jordan, he is a uni student. Quite obviously he has been everywhere and done everything.

Hahaha!

....and is a Muslim.....their opinions are more correct.

Quote:

Debate is one thing but if your just going to toe the Islamic party line,

Since we are Muslims, wouldn't it go without saying that we're going to debate from a Muslim perspective? Are you expecting us to debate from a non-Muslim perspective or something?

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2008 at 5:58pm:

Quote: Debate is one thing but if your just going to toe the Islamic party line, Since we are Muslims, wouldn't it go without saying that we're going to debate from a Muslim perspective? Are you expecting us to debate from a non-Muslim perspective or something?

Of course you are, but remember that your perspective is just one among many, your view is biased and thus you may not be well respected in your opinions because of this.

Quote:

Of course you are, but remember that your perspective is just one among many, your view is biased and thus you may not be well respected in your opinions because of this.

You see, this really is the problem isn't it.

I've got no problem whatsoever with what you said. Yes all people are biased in their opinions and their opinions are only one amongst many... But why is it you seem to think Muslims have any less right to be respect when they stick to their beliefs and opinions? Are we somehow less than others? If a communist or democrat or christian or anarchist or libertarian sticks to their views, that's fine, they can be biased and be one among many, and that's ok. But for a Muslim.. no you won't be well respected for that.

So no problem with what you said Jordan, it's fine by me, just make sure you apply it to all, evenly. Not just Muslims. :)

Anyone who sees the world through only one philosophy, mindset, political or religious ideal should be criticised just as much as a muslim who will only see the world through the eyes of Islam. And if any of those groups you mentioned were preventing people from free speech the way malik is trying to, the way Islam is trying to, then we have a problem.

People who, like yourself, can't see the forest for the trees deserve to have their opinions taken with a grain of salt.

Quote:

Anyone who sees the world through only one philosophy, mindset, political or religious ideal should be criticised

This is what you still fail to realise, ALL people see the world through their own philosophy, mindset and political/religious ideals. This is just a simple fact of our limited nature and the fact we understand the world through our own individual perceptive lens.

The fact that you deny this, and consider yourself and those like you to be the only objective observers is testament to this fact.

I'm not going to reiterate this concept again, as it really doesn't seem to be penetrating through the thick outer crust.

Likewise.

Hypocrite.

jordan484 wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2008 at 1:08pm:

Likewise. Hypocrite.

Oh the irony....

Since we are Muslims, wouldn't it go without saying that we're going to debate from a Muslim perspective? Are you expecting us to debate from a non-Muslim perspective or something?

I often find it very useful to construct your argument from your opponents perspective. It's the greatest test of whether you understand your opponents argument. It also makes your response far more powerful, because your opponent does not have to first accept an alternative perspective in oder to accept your argument.

But why is it you seem to think Muslims have any less right to be respect

I don't think he considers anyone to have that right.