I've noticed lately we have the cut-paste army invading these forums, using primarily two main websites to attack Islam. The biggest culprits are soren and Yadda, just midlessly pasting any anti-Islamic garbage they can manage to fit, into their clipboard buffers, into any argument that has the remotest whiff of Islam in it.

The two main sites they quote from are:

http://www.answering-islam.org
http://www.jihadwatch.org

Now both of these sites are refuted by a few Islamic sites:

http://www.examinethetruth.com
http://www.answering-christianity.org

The interesting thing I've found though, is that the fouders of these websites have actually engaged in live debates with one another, about the topics mentioned in the anti-Islamic websites. Yet only the Islamic sites which refute the Christian sites actually provide the videos. I can't even find any mention of the debates on the Christian sites at all, I wonder why that is? soren, Yadda, why do you think the websites you seem to believe are such a great source of 'islamic knowledge' don't admit to actually engaging in live debates with Muslims? And don't provide the links to the videos? If you search on youtube you can also find them, funnily enough only ever posted by Muslims, didn't find too many Christians posting them... wonder why not guys?

Anyway I'm watching a few of the debates at the moment, and will post some of the interesting ones here.

Well Abu, different people are impressed by different things.
I remember watching a google video about Islam's scientific wonders of the koran, it sounded interesting, but I got more than I hoped for.

I will paraphrase, I don't remember word for word, but the gist was;
"in the book, when westerners still believed the world was flat, mohammed revealed,(some arab talk), that the world is like an egg.
Now an egg is round, like the world, but it is not just round, it has a specific shape, and in ancient arabic the word for egg, actually meant the egg of the 'some specific bird' and this egg has exactly the same shape as the earth, so more inches to allan,(insh allah gay allan) god is great, and that proves the truth of the koran.

I did not know whether to laugh or cry, at such boastful ignorance, so I laughed, it is more fun.

So crap on about anti-Islam sites, and tell me how many live beheadings you have seen on them?

Oh, was that the islamists, anti-western sites doing that?

How disgusting of me to confuse them when they are so similiar.

Nice attempt to go off topic mozza, thanks.

This is about anti-Islamic websites and the debates they've had with Muslims which for some reason they don't like to publicise.

If you wanna discuss Islam and science, feel free to make your own thread and discuss it. I will certainly join you, but leave this topic for what it was created for.

Off Topic?

I was talking about pro-islamic sites being at least as bad as any anti-islamic sites.

You know that I am no fan of the anti-islamic sites, because they are usually run by wacko extremist evangelicals, who I think are just as bad as Islamists.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 9:29am:

Off Topic? I was talking about pro-islamic sites being at least as bad as any anti-islamic sites. You know that I am no fan of the anti-islamic sites, because they are usually run by wacko extremist evangelicals, who I think are just as bad as Islamists.

anti-islamic sites are about inciting hatred against islam.

the stuff you quoted above was the same regular kind of stuff that all religions do when discussing their holy texts. if you don't believe in it that's fine, but it is not equivalent to anti-islamic sites. if you saying that the bias that exists in both renders each unreliable then I can understand where you're coming from. is there a way to find an impartial site?

I think the problem is that many people think the anti-islam sites are impartial and take it from there.

and yes you're right - anti-western sites (any links to those btw?) are just as wrong as anti-islam sites

this is about a competition between who is worse than what. it is about the veracity and integrity of information one can gain from a site whose sole purpose is to incite hatred towards others.

and if you believe you also cannot get good information from muslim sites - what is the suggested alternative?

even when reading the quran itself one needs help to interpret it (same as the bible)- so who should that help come from?

So anti-Islamic sites incite hatred of Muslims.
Islamic sites are just anti-everything not Islamic...  :)

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 11:38am:

So anti-Islamic sites incite hatred of Muslims. Islamic sites are just anti-everything not Islamic...  :)

not necessarily- but yes some are

others are not- they're merely for their own consumption. one can exist without being in opposition to something or someone else

O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble...  Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Quran. 5:101-102)

Islam, keeping it simple, for the simple.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/book.htm

This guy really sticks the boot in. ;D

mozzaok wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 11:54am:

O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble...  Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Quran. 5:101-102) Islam, keeping it simple, for the simple. http://www.faithfreedom.org/book.htm This guy really sticks the boot in. ;D

you haven't answered my questions.

also- explain the relevance of the quote given above or it will be removed or your comments will be removed.

I'm not putting up with religion bashing in here.

mozzaok, why is it so hard for you to just to create a new thread, with those issues you seem to want to discuss, in it?

Don't worry, I'm sure most of us will join you, just have the common courtesy not to keep taking this thread off topic.

Quote:

I'm not putting up with religion bashing in here.

Why not? This is the extremist forum. Religious extremists need to be criticised.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 12:29pm:

Quote: I'm not putting up with religion bashing in here. Why not? This is the extremist forum. Religious extremists need to be criticised.

criticised yes. bashed no.

there's a difference.

I have no problem with people criticising religion- but making random statements of ridicule or abuse will not be tolerated.

I made this comment with particular reference to the lack of context or relevance of mozzaok's comments

if mozza explains some kind of relevance the comments will stay

I think Mozz's last post makes a valid point about Muslim extremism.
Don't know why you Muslims/apologists cant see it.

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 11:17am:

mozzaok wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 9:29am: Off Topic? I was talking about pro-islamic sites being at least as bad as any anti-islamic sites. You know that I am no fan of the anti-islamic sites, because they are usually run by wacko extremist evangelicals, who I think are just as bad as Islamists. anti-islamic sites are about inciting hatred against islam.

Gaybriel,

For instance, take the site,

http://www.jihadwatch.org




It may be your opinion Gaybriel, that JW is inciting hatred against ISLAM / muslims.

Speaking of the comments allowed by JW, yes, some of those comments are rough.

But i say, good on JW for allowing ppl to expresses their views, and 'responses' to ISLAM, and responses to the actions of ppl who declare that they are Lovers of Sharia [i.e. devout muslims].

But i can't say that i have ever seen even one JW contributor [author], inciting hatred against ISLAM / muslims, in their pieces.
....but if it can be proved that they have, i would condemn such a stance.

To me, Robert Spencer and his crew, seem to just be shining a light on what ISLAMISTS are doing, and telling the TRUTH.

And explaining to anyone who will listen, what the ISLAMISTS motivation is, for their hatred, and violence, against non-muslims.
.....as being explained by, and cited within ISLAMIC texts, and [the hatred, and violence] being justified by ppl who claim to be devout muslims.



And clearly, muslims do not like this type of exposure, and they call it 'inciting hatred'.

Can TRUTH, ever be described as hatred???

Or is TRUTH just TRUTH, which some ppl on occasion would wish, that it remain hidden, or gagged.


Freedom of speech must be sacrosanct.

In a free society, two *free men* can agree to disagree.

But, if one of those men has the power, to silence the other, HE is [he becomes] the master of that other man.

He then determines the rights of that 2nd person.

If this circumstance is enshrined in law, such a society, enshrines a political apartheid.

A society, where some have rights and others have none.

And this is the circumstance TODAY, in *ALL* Sharia jurisdictions  [i.e. a political apartheid].

Within a Sharia jurisdictions all muslims are equal [this is the 'justice', which muslims speak of], but under Sharia all non-muslims are 'guilty' and inferior [and are not equal beside a muslim, under law].

Yet, not one single muslim cleric will acknowledge that Sharia is unjust, in that Sharia imposes a political apartheid, favouring muslims, and which is oppressive to any and all [both non-muslim and muslim], who are  deemed  un-ISLAMIC.








+++++



Gaybriel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 11:17am:

I think the problem is that many people think the anti-islam sites are impartial and take it from there.

Gaybriel,

I don't think that a site like JW is impartial, but i do believe that much of what they are revealing about ISLAM, is clearly TRUE.




What disturbs me about the whole issue, is that many, supposedly, moderate muslims will claim that 'radicalised' muslims [those advocating violence], are not pure, or true, muslims.

But, instead of trying to convince non-muslims of the virtue of ISLAM, why don't the pure, or true muslims, try to convince the 'radicalised' muslims, of their error, and their misunderstanding of virtuous, peaceful, ISLAMIC principles ???

This self criticism within ISLAM never occurs.

Why?

Because all such discussions are regarded as 'haram' [forbidden].

Why?

Because all devout muslims already know that ISALM is Allah's perfect religion.
....and to suggest otherwise is fatal [i mean....ppl will kill you for your apostasy].


EXAMPLE....

May 14, 2008
Afghan teacher shot dead after speech condemning suicide bombings
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021017.php
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/14/asia/AS-GEN-Afghan-Teacher-Killed.php




Instead, ISLAM promotes its tried and 'true' doctrines....

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/cartoon-protest12.jpg
Teaching muslim children, ISLAMIC values [London],


http://www.jihadwatch.org/ITSOct082.jpg
Voting is kufr -- unbeliefi

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 1:11pm:

I think Mozz's last post makes a valid point about Muslim extremism. Don't know why you Muslims/apologists cant see it.

as I have said before- I have asked him to contextualise it. once he does no problem.

Obviously photoshopped to make it look bad for Muslims Yadda...  

ROTFLMAO

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 1:15pm:

Obviously photoshopped to make it look bad for Muslims Yadda...   ROTFLMAO

you think so? wow - conspiracy theory.  ::)

more like you've got some people with extreme views taking it to the streets and making themselves look bad.

woosh...
was I too subtle?  ;D

ahhhh...  some people?  and who would these people be?

Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Arse Off...  yet again

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 1:15pm:

Obviously photoshopped to make it look bad for Muslims Yadda...   ROTFLMAO

".....Obviously photoshopped to make it look bad for Muslims"


Grendel,

LOL

We have enough trouble getting the TRUTH out, so.....

'Don't encourage them!'

.....with remarks like that!!!

:)

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 1:22pm:

woosh... was I too subtle?  ;D ahhhh...  some people?  and who would these people be? Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Arse Off...  yet again

nah dude- I was joking back with you. was I too subtle?

those people would be the ones in the photos holding the signs.

man you must have some chronic abs from all the laughing you do ;)

btw Yadda I'm not ignoring your post- I will come back to it :)

Is it so terrible when ppl reveal what ISLAM is 'about', on non-ISLAMIC web sites?




How the Koran counsels muslims.....

NEVER SEEK OUT THE TRUTH FOR YOURSELF, with enquiry

"O ye who believe! ASK NOT QUESTIONS about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
SOME PEOPLE BEFORE YOU DID ASK SUCH QUESTIONS, AND ON THAT ACCOUNT LOST THEIR FAITH."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.101
v. 101 & 102


i.e. Don't listen to non-ISLAMIC web sites....



ALWAYS BELIEVE THE CLERICS, ALWAYS BE OBEDIENT TO 'ALLAH' [i.e. the clerics].

"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger," [i.e. obey the clerics]
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#047.033



BELIEVE NO ONE,
.....UNLESS HE IS A MUSLIM.

"And believe no one unless he follows your religion.......True guidance is the Guidance of Allah:....He knoweth all things."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.73



THOSE KUFFAR [non-muslims], ONLY HATE YOU MUSLIMS,

"O ye who believe!
Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks:
They will not fail to corrupt you.
They only desire your ruin:
Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths:
What their hearts conceal is far worse.
We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.118



This last Koran verse, sounds like it is INCITING HATRED of 'unbelievers' to me.

Quote:

Is it so terrible when ppl reveal what ISLAM is 'about', on non-ISLAMIC web sites?

If what they say on their websites is the truth, then why is it they don't put the debates with Muslims on their websites? In which they had their proverbial backsides kicked.

Robert Spencer, the 'man' behind jihadwatch.org has so far run out of two debates with Muslims, after he couldn't prove his points, nor counter their arguments. Why do you think that might be? Did you watch the videos? I'd suggest you do.

Likewise Sam Shamoun of answering-islam.org has been whipped by several leading Muslim debaters, and has fled on several occasions also, unable to hold up the debate. Perhaps you should go and watch some of the videos of these people you consider to be trustworthy, so you can find out just how sincere and authentic they are.

It's one thing to run around madly cutting and pasting stuff from one site to another, but you really should check the calibre of the people you're quoting, because quite rankly if I was a Christian, I'd be pretty ashamed of their abilities to present their arguments against Islam. It's one thing to use quotes out of context on a website, and twist things to your own desires for propaganda purposes, but why don't their ideas and articles stand up to scrutiny in debate? Perhaps because the other side actually has a voice?

Abu - yes, the christians should research their topics well.
Mind you, you muslims are well drilled.
They are probably lazy and don't prepare well.

They should learn from a loss (if that happened) and come back prepared.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 3:17pm:

Quote: Is it so terrible when ppl reveal what ISLAM is 'about', on non-ISLAMIC web sites? If what they say on their websites is the truth, then why is it they don't put the debates with Muslims on their websites? In which they had their proverbial backsides kicked. Robert Spencer, the 'man' behind jihadwatch.org has so far run out of two debates with Muslims, after he couldn't prove his points, nor counter their arguments. Why do you think that might be? Did you watch the videos? I'd suggest you do. Likewise Sam Shamoun of answering-islam.org has been whipped by several leading Muslim debaters, and has fled on several occasions also, unable to hold up the debate. Perhaps you should go and watch some of the videos of these people you consider to be trustworthy, so you can find out just how sincere and authentic they are.

abu,

I believe you were going to post a link?

But i missed it.

Please post a YOUTUBE link.
....[i'm on dailup, it usually takes +2 hrs for me to d/l a Y/T vid [to my drive], but i will have a look at one.]







abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 3:17pm:

It's one thing to run around madly cutting and pasting stuff from one site to another, but you really should check the calibre of the people you're quoting, because quite rankly if I was a Christian, I'd be pretty ashamed of their abilities to present their arguments against Islam. It's one thing to use quotes out of context on a website, and twist things to your own desires for propaganda purposes, but why don't their ideas and articles stand up to scrutiny in debate? Perhaps because the other side actually has a voice?

abu, this would be a fair point, that you are making.

But i have not seen it demonstrated yet.

Most of the counter-arguments which i have seen presented by muslims, have often seemed very illogical to me.





".......It's one thing to use quotes out of context on a website"


abu,

what is out of context, in this next Koran quote?

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051

It all seems very un-ambiguous to me, and clear what the meaning is.



OR,

"O ye who believe!
Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks:
They will not fail to corrupt you.
They only desire your ruin:
Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths:
What their hearts conceal is far worse.
We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.118


Isn't the meaning of this last Koran verse also un-ambiguous, and isn't it actually inciting the hatred of 'unbelievers' ???

It would seem so to me.

But hey, i'm an 'unbeliever' [strike that!].
....I AM, a believer!

But your philosophy, and your Koran, say's that i am accursed by Allah.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 19^th, 2008 at 11:55pm:

I've noticed lately we have the cut-paste army invading these forums, using primarily two main websites to attack Islam. The biggest culprits are soren and Yadda, just midlessly pasting any anti-Islamic garbage they can manage to fit, into their clipboard buffers, into any argument that has the remotest whiff of Islam in it. The two main sites they quote from are: http://www.answering-islam.org http://www.jihadwatch.org Now both of these sites are refuted by a few Islamic sites: http://www.examinethetruth.com http://www.answering-christianity.org The interesting thing I've found though, is that the fouders of these websites have actually engaged in live debates with one another, about the topics mentioned in the anti-Islamic websites. Yet only the Islamic sites which refute the Christian sites actually provide the videos. I can't even find any mention of the debates on the Christian sites at all, I wonder why that is? soren, Yadda, why do you think the websites you seem to believe are such a great source of 'islamic knowledge' don't admit to actually engaging in live debates with Muslims? And don't provide the links to the videos? If you search on youtube you can also find them, funnily enough only ever posted by Muslims, didn't find too many Christians posting them... wonder why not guys? Anyway I'm watching a few of the debates at the moment, and will post some of the interesting ones here.

There must be another soren on this forum.
I quoted the Today in the Religion of Peace thread starters from the New English Review. I also quoted a fair bit from Asia Times columnist Spengler. And of course I did make use of Groucho Marx, which turned out the most offensive thing of the lot, in some minds.

You do not need 'Islamic knowledge' to criticise or reject or oppose Islam, especially not it's political operatives like you.

I am not aware that anyone here cares or mentions how you care for your soul.

The opposition to Islam is overwhelmingly, if not entirely, on the basis of its political designs.

.

spint,


Quote:

They are probably lazy and don't prepare well.

check out their websites, they consider themselves the foremost experts on Islam. They've been writing articles about the supposed errors and evils  of Islam for years now, would've thought they'd have been able to at least hold their own in a debate with  those they're attacking..


Quote:

They should learn from a loss (if that happened) and come back prepared.

They lost several times, and about the only thing they learnt was not to debate Muslims anymore, and certainly not to publicise those debates that have occured. In one debate I watched, the Muslims had to force them the sign the media rights release, because even up until the introduction to the debate, the Christians were refusing to sign an agreement to allow it to be broadcast on the internet. When he called them to account for it on camera though, they had no choice :)

Yadda,


Quote:

I believe you were going to post a link?

You can just type Sam Shamoun (the main guy behind answering-islam.org) into youtube, and you'll get the videos of his debates with Muslims. What I want to know though is why he doesn't publish them on his website? Surely if he's holding the truth and propagating it, then shouldn't he have a big menu on the side for "Lectures" where you could click to see all his debates against Muslims, where he showed them up? Not even a mention that he's engaged in such debates... answering-christianity.org and www.examinethetruth.com have plenty of these videos on their refutation sites. Perhaps you should visit answering-christianity.org because it actually contains refutations of every single article on answering-islam.org Can't hurt to examine the refutation can it? I've looked at both sides.. and I think it's quite obvious who's speaking garbage and who's with the truth. Then again, you're not interested in the truth really are you? You're interested in trashing Islam, only. Your lack of sincerity, is what prevents you from advancing beyond a cut-paste drone.

This is the debate I have watched so far, called "Is Islam a religion of peace":

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sijF-2af_tI

Shamoun actually ran off from this debate I think.


Quote:

Most of the counter-arguments which i have seen presented by muslims, have often seemed very illogical to me.

Have you visited answering-christianity.org ?
If so, can you link to a specific refutation you think is illogical?


Quote:

what is out of context, in this next Koran quote?

Nothing, what's wrong with the quote? It's advising Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as trusted protectors over them, and if we look in the world today we can surely see why. Btw it doesn't say 'friends' at all, that's a mistranslation. The word used is awliya, which means guardian or trusted protector, it's never used in the Arabic language as we'd use friend or mate in English.


Quote:

Isn't the meaning of this last Koran verse also un-ambiguous, and isn't it actually inciting the hatred of 'unbelievers' ???

Why don't we read the next few verses and see?

Ah!ye are those who love them, but they love you not,- though ye believe in the whole of the Book. When they meet you, they say, "We believe": But when they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say: "Perish in you rage; Allah knoweth well all the secrets of the heart."
If aught that is good befalls you, it grieves them; but if some misfortune overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if ye are constant and do right, not the least harm will their cunning do to you; for Allah Compasseth round about all that they do.

Also note that these verses are speaking about a very special class of people, not just "All unbelievers". It refers to the Munafiqoon, those who publically professed Islam, but secretly, they used to plot and plan against the Muslims with the idol-worshippers.. That's why it says when they meet you they say "We believe".

Also it states a people whom the Muslims love them... So the idea it's about hating is just ridiculous.

Quote:

There must be another soren on this forum.

If I have misjudged you soren I'm sorry. I thought I saw you posting some nonsense from jihadwatch.org somewhere. Perhaps it was just all your incessant ranting about Dhimmitude that threw me off. Again, my apologies for making such a false charge.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 4:39pm:

Quote: There must be another soren on this forum. If I have misjudged you soren I'm sorry. I thought I saw you posting some nonsense from jihadwatch.org somewhere. Perhaps it was just all your incessant ranting about Dhimmitude that threw me off. Again, my apologies for making such a false charge.

Good to see a Muslim speaking humbly, for a change, like in the good old days. Keep it up.

But you make an error even when apologising. I mentioned dhimmis once, on 26 September, and then in reference to medieval translators. To call that incessant is dishonest hyperbole of the most simple-minded kind. It is artless, witless, reflexive mental tick. You should apologise for this gross exaggeration as well, especially if you don't want to lose your new browny point straight away.
And be more careful next time.

Still, I am also glad that the rest, the substantive part, of my observation is accepted without contest.


Quote:

You do not need 'Islamic knowledge' to criticise or reject or oppose Islam, especially not it's political operatives like you. I am not aware that anyone here cares or mentions how you care for your soul. The opposition to Islam is overwhelmingly, if not entirely, on the basis of its political designs.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 4:36pm:

Yadda, Quote: Most of the counter-arguments which i have seen presented by muslims, have often seemed very illogical to me. Have you visited answering-christianity.org ? If so, can you link to a specific refutation you think is illogical?

abu,

i have addressed one example of an unsupportable, illogical muslim argument, here,


Yadda wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 11:28am:

"Muhammad is the "That Prophet" in the Bible...."

An example is given, where muslims assume [accept] certain verses of the Bible, in Deuteronomy, to argue that Muhammad is the Prophet promised, in the Bible.

Yet, this same person [the author] does not address, he totally ignores, other verses within Genesis, which debunk that assertion, and exclude the line of Ishmael [through which muslims claim Muhammad, has his prophethood].



I am not suggesting Ishmael's line cannot avail themselves of God's blessing, a blessing which is offered to all mankind.

I merely assert, the the blessing will, in no way, come through Ishmael's line.



But God's blessing, redemption, is open [offered] to all mankind.







Psalms 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.


John 4:20
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25  The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26  Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 12:08pm:

mozzaok wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:54am: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble...  Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Quran. 5:101-102) Islam, keeping it simple, for the simple. http://www.faithfreedom.org/book.htm This guy really sticks the boot in. ;D you haven't answered my questions. also- explain the relevance of the quote given above or it will be removed or your comments will be removed. I'm not putting up with religion bashing in here.

Why not?

What about athiest bashing or western bashing?

Besides the quote is from a 'holy' book, and appears to be an edict that encourages and overvalues ignorance.

mozzaok - yes, this one ALSO has run offtopic .

locutius wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2008 at 2:27pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:08pm: mozzaok wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:54am: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble...  Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Quran. 5:101-102) Islam, keeping it simple, for the simple. http://www.faithfreedom.org/book.htm This guy really sticks the boot in. ;D you haven't answered my questions. also- explain the relevance of the quote given above or it will be removed or your comments will be removed. I'm not putting up with religion bashing in here. Why not? What about athiest bashing or western bashing? Besides the quote is from a 'holy' book, and appears to be an edict that encourages and overvalues ignorance.

I've already answered this. there is a difference between bashing and criticism..

the lack of context of mozza's comment made it sound like he was just taking a random swipe instead of actually saying something constructive.