Following on from these topics:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215611509/60#60

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1216537027/104#104

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1216537027/6#6

Do Australian Muslims usually circumcise their female infants?

Also, in this thread Malik says it is forbidden:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1214390480/76#76

Is that a Shiit/Sunni thing?

As you noted, this has been done to death already in 3 other threads (and perhaps more).


Quote:

Do Australian Muslims usually circumcise their female infants?

I've never heard of a single case of it.


Quote:

Also, in this thread Malik says it is forbidden:

It is forbidden to commit the mutilation that's known as FGM. A small incision in the upper labia above the clitoris however is permissible. But that's nothing like the African practise of FGM.


Quote:

Is that a Shiit/Sunni thing?

Female circumcision, in any form, isn't really a huge issue amongst Muslims (of anyy sect) as the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims simple don't practise it and/or have never even heard of it.

Quote:

A small incision in the upper labia above the clitoris however is permissible.

Do Muslims in Australia do this?

Can you read?


Quote:

Do Australian Muslims usually circumcise their female infants? [quote]I've never heard of a single case of it.

[/quote]

Yes, thank you, I can. I thought you may have been referring to what you described as the African practice, and wondered if Muslims in Australia undertook what you said was the permissible procedure.

No, I've never heard of any case of any Muslim I know performing any kind at all.

It's simply not a common Muslim practice, as the media would have us believe.

As you noted, this has been done to death already in 3 other threads (and perhaps more).

I also noted that doing a topic to death often leaves me in the dark regarding Islamic law. I would like to be enlightened, even if it is a bit difficult to uncover the truth.

I've never heard of a single case of it.

Is this because Australian law forbids it, or because it is optional under Islam?

It is forbidden to commit the mutilation that's known as FGM. A small incision in the upper labia above the clitoris however is permissible. But that's nothing like the African practise of FGM.

So Malik was mistaken? He should ahve said FGM is forbidden but circumcision is allowed?

Female circumcision, in any form, isn't really a huge issue amongst Muslims (of anyy sect) as the vast overwhelming majority of Muslims simple don't practise it and/or have never even heard of it.

Is this because of western interference?

Quote:

I also noted that doing a topic to death often leaves me in the dark regarding Islamic law. I would like to be enlightened, even if it is a bit difficult to uncover the truth.

Probably because 'your truth' is already preconceived, and when you find that we don't corroborate it for you, you walk away feeling unfulfilled, sorry :(


Quote:

Is this because Australian law forbids it, or because it is optional under Islam?

I'd say because most non-African Muslims simply have no concept of it's practise and therefore simply don't practise it. And since Australia's Muslim community is predominantly not African, that'd probably account for why it's barely heard of here. It may possibly exist, I just never heard of it. So it's certainly not 'usually' done as your initial post asked.

Whether Australian law affects African Muslims in Australia practising I really don't know.


Quote:

So Malik was mistaken? He should ahve said FGM is forbidden but circumcision is allowed?

You'll have to ask him. As has been noted to you on numerous occasions Malik is a Shi'a and the Shi'a have completely different Hadith books and Fiqh (although you seem to doubt this, still). Since circumcision is only ever mentioned in Hadith books, in Shi'a Islam it may well not even exist as a concept.


Quote:

Is this because of western interference?

I doubt it. Most Muslims simply don't practise it. Also the references to it in Islamic texts are rather brief, and only exist in 1 or 2 Hadiths.

Now I'm aware your preconceived idea here is "It's a widespread Muslim practise", and obviously I didn't corroborate that for you, and so you're going to walk away disappointed, but try to be a teeney weeney bit objective if you can.

Probably because 'your truth' is already preconceived, and when you find that we don't corroborate it for you, you walk away feeling unfulfilled, sorry

No, that's not it. It's because I feel like something was hidden from me through deception. In case you hadn't noticed, when I started discussing these issues I had no idea what Islamic law is. I was upfront about this. I have no idea where you get this 'preconcieved' nonsense from.

I doubt it. Most Muslims simply don't practise it. Also the references to it in Islamic texts are rather brief, and only exist in 1 or 2 Hadiths.

So it's something that is mentioned, but there are no clear laws for or against it?

I believe the only mention of female circumcision is as a practise to be used for hygeine reasons- and that it should not be something that causes pain, discomfort or sexual displeasure for the female.

It is also not obligatory and should be done voluntarily.

FGM- which is entirely different- was practised in Africa before Islam came there.

It is also not obligatory and should be done voluntarily.

At the parent's request?

freediver wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2008 at 1:15pm:

It is also not obligatory and should be done voluntarily. At the parent's request?

no at the individual's request. I think- I'm not 100%. I'd have to find the quote about it. I'll see if I can get it.

I think the only way it would be at the parents request is if it were performed like male circumcision when the child is very young. cause essentially it's the same deal- for hygeine and without causing pain or discomfort long term.

I assumed it would only be performed on infants.

http://muslimvillage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42965&hl=circumcision

http://muslimvillage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=40159&hl=circumcision

Yeah, thanks so much, gaybriel for those unbiased links. You know I came here to get away from that sort of bigotry, bias and hatred, please think twice before bringing it here.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2008 at 7:01pm:

Yeah, thanks so much, gaybriel for those unbiased links. You know I came here to get away from that sort of bigotry, bias and hatred, please think twice before bringing it here.

take it easy sassy pants!!

I didn't say the links were unbiased, they are merely where I got my understanding of female circumcision (as described in the quran/sunnah) from!

and your understanding of MV is quite different from mine :)

wait wait, I almost missed this- you came HERE to get away from bigotry and hatred?

aaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha

oh man- classic

Yes, I did.

Isn't it ironic that those who claim to be victims are the perpetrators as well. Please note my signature.

It all sounds like some form of piercing
http://tongue-piercings.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/triple-tongue-piercing.jpg

jordan484 wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2008 at 7:21pm:

Yes, I did. Isn't it ironic that those who claim to be victims are the perpetrators as well. Please note my signature.

don't worry I saw it much before this

I don't doubt there are bigotted people on MV- it bugs me as well- especially when you have people saying they're being discriminated against and then turn around and do exactly the same thing to others.

I don't make excuses for it- because it bugs me even more than regular discrimination because I think essentially those who have been the victims of discrimination should know better.

but to be honest- I don't think that he level of bigotry and hatred is any less here than on mv. and of course as I'm sure you can predict- I think it is more. but perhaps that is due to some particularly active posters