Now I have learned a lot more about Islam than I ever wanted to know, I personally would have preferred to just have been happy thinking of it as another religious belief, which I have no need of.

Unfortunately that all changed in '79, when crackpot Khomenei came to power in Iran, and we saw the outcome of radical Islam on our TV's.

Of course their are unresolvable debates about past wrongs, and that cannot be changed, or ever agreed about to everyone's satisfaction, so I was hoping that we could not pursue that in this thread.

What I was hoping to see was people's ideas about how they see Islam and the west co-existing peacefully.

Does the west need to radically change it's behaviour towards, and stance about Islam?

Does Islam need to change itself, and promote a more progressive, less dogmatic set of values for it's followers?

Is either of the above options ever likely to happen, or even possible?

If you cannot see either happening, do you see confrontation as inevitable?

If you see this confrontation as inevitable, do you think having large muslim populations in western countries, as something that needs to be discouraged, or even banned?

Now I personally, can see the possibility of the west moderating it's behaviour towards Islam, and believe it would be our best, and most morally responsible choice.

As to whether Islam is capable of exacting internal, systemic, change, I really do not know enough to say, I certainly hope so, but my very limited experience, leaves me with unresolved concerns that the will to do so is decidedly lacking amongst muslims.

I think back to the days when the Soviets were vilified as mindless aggressors, bent on world domination, and that was not without some validity, certainly amongst the elite, ruling class, of the soviets, but then, as now, I thought of the average family, that has no desire for anything but peace, prosperity, and opportunity, for themselves and their families, and my hope is that once more, PEOPLE power, can turn something mindless and violent, into something more human.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 11:31am:

Now I have learned a lot more about Islam than I ever wanted to know, I personally would have preferred to just have been happy thinking of it as another religious belief, which I have no need of. Unfortunately that all changed in '79, when crackpot Khomenei came to power in Iran, and we saw the outcome of radical Islam on our TV's. Of course their are unresolvable debates about past wrongs, and that cannot be changed, or ever agreed about to everyone's satisfaction, so I was hoping that we could not pursue that in this thread. What I was hoping to see was people's ideas about how they see Islam and the west co-existing peacefully. Does the west need to radically change it's behaviour towards, and stance about Islam?

yes


Quote:

Does Islam need to change itself, and promote a more progressive, less dogmatic set of values for it's followers?

yes and no- islam needs to be changed, but changed in a way that takes it back to the fundamental teachings- so essentially it needs to change back from being changed in the first place.  :P I think Islam has been corrupted and politicised in some areas of the world- and I think it's time to go back to grass roots. obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but in some places and with some people and groups.


Quote:

Is either of the above options ever likely to happen, or even possible?

hope so


Quote:

If you cannot see either happening, do you see confrontation as inevitable?

I think if foreign policy doesn't change it's not going to be great for those countries it pertains to. confrontation in somewhere like australia though? no. not in any significant way. I think attitudes towards muslims and vice versa will inform that- and I think foreign policy etc is only part of that


Quote:

If you see this confrontation as inevitable, do you think having large muslim populations in western countries, as something that needs to be discouraged, or even banned?

hell no

Great thread mozzaok.

I think individuals own sense of freedom will win out.

I think islam is imploding

::) ::) ::)

apologist.... wahhabists are taking it back to its grassroots.

Well I don't really know, but I thought the wahabbi cult within Islam grew in the 17th century, which was well into it's decline, and possibly as a reaction to growing western influence.

That does raise a very good issue, which is whether extremism is a "natural" Islamic reaction, to loss of influence?

I find much of the koran problematic, as I do much of the bible, but I see most christian religions focusing on the positive bible messages, rather than the ugly ones, I wonder if Islam is capable of making similiar progress?

Perhaps we can see Islamic practices like stoning, go the same way as the christian tortures of the Inquisition period.

I know that for christianity it was an evolutionary, rather than a revolutionary change of behaviour, and I do not know if we have time to wait for Islam to Evolve, it needs change, and needs it now.

From what I know, torturing is not recommended in the bible.

christians have certainly ran off the rails in spectacular fashions over the mellenias.
there is not teachings in the bible to support "bad" behaviour.

Not every "christian" is a good one .

lol
The Inquisition and its counterparts are more political than religious Mozz...  ever heard of the Cathars?  The Albigensian Crusade?  These were days when secularism wasn't a part of everyday life.

Quote:

The Inquisition and its counterparts are more political than religious Mozz...

Another excellent point Grendel.

The politicisation of Islam.

Can any belief based on Theocratic principles, ever be able to separate religious concerns, from political concerns?

We see most westerners who urge tolerance of Islam, citing that the extremists are "Politically" motivated, and I have no argument with that assessment, but is Islam capable of not being political?

Is political dissatisfaction always justifiable reason for terrorism?

Every time I try to see a peaceful way forward for Islam, I see systemic problems without answers, which was why I started this thread, I want there to be a peaceful, human way forward, but I am struggling to find one.

islam is a complete way of life Mozz...  not just something for Sundays.  there is no division of state and religion in true Islam.

Personally i don't see any way forward except total submission.. (by us)

But a nice first step would be for them to prosecute their own terrorists and stop harbouring them.

Another would be to stop preaching/teaching hatred.

http://www.pmw.org.il/bulletins_may2007.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH4UuWFk5Sg

http://www.radicalislam.org/content/teaching-children-hate

http://redstatekids.blogspot.com/2007/02/islam-teaching-hate.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2105429/Muslim-children-in-Britain-%27brought-up-to-hate-their-homeland%27.html

Muslim children in Britain 'brought up to hate their homeland'
Radical British Muslims have formed chatrooms to discuss adopting orphans and bringing up children to be Islamic fighters, a study has found.

and the list goes on and on and on....

Quote:

islam is a complete way of life Mozz...  not just something for Sundays. .there is no division of state and religion  in true Islam.

Well I can only ever see that fact as a terrible negative, which Islam must overcome, if it is ever to progress and be accepted as a true religious belief, rather than a quasi religious, political movement.

Politics and religion are incompatible.

Power corrupts, absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

Examination of any political scenario where an authoritarian regime rules indefinitely, and you see a progression towards indulgent and despotic excesses, which are not conducive to societies advancement, or respect for human rights.

Islam needs to be separate from politics, if it is to progress.

Islam is a pagan, tribal Arab religion. It is a creed to galvanise a looting, marauding horde with the promise of booty in this life or the next.
Mohammad's pearls of wisdom are not new insights. His silly idea of an eternal koran, a book in heaven, is the fetish of a semi-literate merchant who wanted to play warlord. All who fall for this nonsense are worse than semi-literate, they are willing submitters to nonsense.

The opposite is true of almost every claim muslims make on Islam's behalf, to th extent that it actually makes for an amusing parlour game.
Allah is merciful - Islam's concept of a tyrannical Allah, in complete control of every moment, an oriental despot who can lie and deceive if he wants to, is an excellent example of a god created in the image of the man Mohammed.

islam is a complete way of life - The rituals of Islam are the rituals of slaves.
islam is for the good of humanity  - Any religion that forbids music is stupid, unimagiative and anti-life, not to say evil.
The Koran is the most beautiful book  - There has never been a more turgid book than the koran. It is eyewateringly, unbelievably turgid - but claimed to be unsurpassed in its beauty and excellence. What rot!

Islam is a world-historical hoax. It is a misunderstanding of the most colossal proportions. If by a miracle the jews and christians disappeared today, Islam would not make sense any more at all. It's sole reaison d'etre is in its opposition to and resentment towards these other two religions and its crueelty and looting of what it looks down on as polytheists.
It thrives on a cultivated sense of injured pride, petulance and greed.
The threat of violence and murder is never far with Islam. Religion of peace? It is violent, intolerant, menacing and death-loving.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 25^th, 2008 at 11:31am:

As to whether Islam is capable of exacting internal, systemic, change, I really do not know enough to say, I certainly hope so, but my very limited experience, leaves me with unresolved concerns that the will to do so is decidedly lacking amongst muslims. I think back to the days when the Soviets were vilified as mindless aggressors, bent on world domination, and that was not without some validity, certainly amongst the elite, ruling class, of the soviets, but then, as now, I thought of the average family, that has no desire for anything but peace, prosperity, and opportunity, for themselves and their families, and my hope is that once more, PEOPLE power, can turn something mindless and violent, into something more human.

".....As to whether Islam is capable of exacting internal, systemic, change, I really do not know enough to say...."



mozzaok,

All devout muslims KNOW, already, that ISLAM is perfect.

ISLAM does not require reform, or 'systemic change'.

Why would you want to change something which you KNOW, is already perfect????
....[i speak as with a muslim mind]



++++++

And that, is the problem mozzaok.

There is absolutely no chance of muslims [the ones that count] reforming ISLAM.

Any ppl, including devout muslims, who study ISLAMIC texts know this.




mozzaok,

All devout muslims already know that ISALM is Allah's perfect religion.
....and for a muslim to suggest ISLAM could be 'reformed' is fatal [i mean....within Sharia jurisdictions, ppl who would mouth such thoughts make themselves targets of murder, for their apostasy].


EXAMPLE....

May 14, 2008
Afghan teacher shot dead after speech condemning suicide bombings
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021017.php
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/14/asia/AS-GEN-Afghan-Teacher-Killed.php



APOSTASY IN ISLAM
"Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.
The FOUR MAJOR SUNNI AND THE ONE MAJOR SHIA MADH'HAB (SCHOOLS OF ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE) AGREE that a sane adult male apostate must be executed......"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam





We non-muslims should also consider the person of Muhammad.

All devout muslims [today] are taught from childhood, that Muhammad was the, the, the, perfect muslim, and the example of a man which all muslims should seek to emulate.

Who was Muhammad ???

What sort of life did he follow?

We [non-muslims] should all seek, to find out the answers to those Q's too!

Google,
Muhammad perfect example to muslims
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Muhammad+perfect+example+to+muslims&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

How could islam change? How can a final word of god change? Islam is stuck.

Islam wants people to change and zealous muslims, aadvocating the ummah, also want people to change.

Perhaps ask the questions the other way around - ask what you would like changed islam and then seek the answer as to why it is not happening.

You will see soon enough that the very idea of reform or change or paradigm shift are impossible without surrendering some of the unquestionable authority of the koran or Mohammed.

In other words, in what ways do you think Surrender (islam) is not or should not be total surrender?

Well I guess I agree, but only up to a point.

Any religion is more than it's text, it is it's people.

I gave the soviet analogy because of the enmity that was displayed against the west, and the level of open malevolence from your average ruski of the day, was pretty full on.
The crooked commissars would spruik the populace into a frenzy of hatred, and mayday parades would see hundreds of thousands chanting slogans for all they were worth, but it was not sustainable, because the ordinary family man does not really care about that crap.

I cannot help but think that Islam should be the same, once the fear of being accused of not being a strident enough muslim starts to fade then we could well see the lunacy take a back seat, and good old family values promoted.

The coutries under the soviet were famous for their subversive sense of humour and jokes. The whole idea of the Communist party was that is was the vanguard - comprising about 10-120 % of the population, and even then, these were mostly the careerists.
And Marxism itself was a western idea, a radical version of the Jacobin ideology of the French revolution. It  declared itself scientific and so was defeated by reason. It was not an eentirely alien ideology.

Islam is immune to reason, it has no sense of humour and does not tolerate it in others. It is build on a completely different foundation even if it has many of the outward, surface signs of mass psychosis (rallies, shouting, chanting, group think) shared by other totalitarian mass control movements.  It has no regard for the individual, only for the tribe.
It does share the paranoia and self-delusion of the soviet mind.



What would happen if Saudi Arabia became communist?
First year, nothing.
Second year, nothing.
Third year - they'd start rationing sand.