I would like to see all posts deleted by mods moved to an area so that they can be appealed by the poster to be reinstated.

The Islamic forum moderators here have a habit of deleting anything they want even if it is fair debate and facts.

This can not be allowed to continue.

Either they be removed from moderation or we be given the right of appeal and our posts saved until the appeal is held.

Sorry Grendel, there is no right of appeal. If you are concerned your post may be unjustly deleted, save yourself a copy.

It'ld be too much work, grendel.
Things are normally fine, normally there are very few deletions.
And then it is very just.
Aside from the islam forum, no need for it.

really, they've been a good education for us.
There is freedom of speech there, long is it is what they want.  :) :) :)

Same attitude as in other islam forums I have been in.
They must be all infected with the same disease.

Word of advice, if you would like to discuss Islam freely, post it in the...
A) Extremism exposed board.
B) Multiculturalism and race board (Providing of course you link it to one of those topics).

I don't know why everyones wasting their time trying to discuss Islam openly with a Muslim anyway (Let alone a forum moderated by one). It's not exactly going to be a constructive conversation.

I have learned a lot about Islam from that board.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 4:19pm:

Word of advice, if you would like to discuss Islam freely, post it in the... A) Extremism exposed board. B) Multiculturalism and race board (Providing of course you link it to one of those topics). I don't know why everyones wasting their time trying to discuss Islam openly with a Muslim anyway (Let alone a forum moderated by one). It's not exactly going to be a constructive conversation.

anyone is welcome to discuss islam in extremism exposed as long as it is done respectfully

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 4:24pm:

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Oct 29th, 2008 at 4:19pm: Word of advice, if you would like to discuss Islam freely, post it in the... A) Extremism exposed board. B) Multiculturalism and race board (Providing of course you link it to one of those topics). I don't know why everyones wasting their time trying to discuss Islam openly with a Muslim anyway (Let alone a forum moderated by one). It's not exactly going to be a constructive conversation. anyone is welcome to discuss islam in extremism exposed as long as it is done respectfully

And anyone is welcome to discuss Islam in the multiculturalism and race board so long as it relates to multiculturalism or race in some way. As an added bonus, you can be abusive as you like towards Islam, regardless of how much Muslims complain about it (You however cannot be personally abusive towards other members as individuals as outlined in FD's manifesto).


FD
Quote:

I have learned a lot about Islam from that board.

Indeedy. I'm actually quite impressed, FD. You're often being highly critical of Islam and its practices regardless of your pro-multicult and anti-wacist tendencies.

gaybriel - what a load of rot.

Donald - sounds like a fair invitation

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 8:45pm:

gaybriel - what a load of rot. Donald - sounds like a fair invitation

really? what have I deleted or modded in the forum except for personal attacks or disrespectful remarks from muslims and non-muslims alike?

gaybriel - what a load of rot. (translation: I'm not free to openly attack and disparage Islam, so it's not much of an invitation)

Donald - sounds like a fair invitation  (translation: Ah one of my fellow anti-Islamic racist mates will let me come over and openly bag Islam there)

Just speak openly and honestly here sprint, you're amongst friends. No need to hide your intentions.

gaybriel - it is rot to deal with extreme people in "moderation and respectfully."
They'll totally ignore and run over you.

Abu - that's the aussie way. Everything's open to being bagged.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 9:31pm:

gaybriel - what a load of rot. (translation: I'm not free to openly attack and disparage Islam, so it's not much of an invitation) Donald - sounds like a fair invitation  (translation: Ah one of my fellow anti-Islamic racist mates will let me come over and openly bag Islam there) Just speak openly and honestly here sprint, you're amongst friends. No need to hide your intentions.

You're a wacist! (Translation: Oh sh1t! They're onto us. Let's call them wacists even though Islam is a religion so they get a false sense of guilt. Maybe then they'll shut up. In the meantime, suckers like Gabriel will back us up. Even though it's quite clear that if Gabriel ever lived among Muslims she would be thoroughly opposed to Islam since the lifestyle she enjoys now would be lost, as she would cooped up in a kitchen all day, massaging her husbands feet and singing his praises.)


Sprint may be anti-Islamic, Abu. But I'm pretty sure he's not wacist like myself.

DT I'm not actually directly criticial of Islam very often. I mostly just try to find out the 'inconvenient' truths. Revelation seems to be more than enough.

Quote:

anyone is welcome to discuss islam in extremism exposed as long as it is done respectfully

Big problem Gaybriel, respect needs to be earned, and Islam is doing it's absolute best, to make sure that does not happen.

If you want an example of systemic bigotry, sexism and racism, check out the koran.

As long as we have extremists choosing to interpret the incomprehensible mish mash of competing ideals presented under Islam, as the perfect truth, in 'whatever way we want to interpret it on the day', then we will see conflict with people who do not like oppression and violence, 'unless you do it our way', messages from Islamic spokespeople, which are notoriously hard to categorise, as every second nutjob claims to be a mullah or mufti.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 11:07am:

Quote: anyone is welcome to discuss islam in extremism exposed as long as it is done respectfully Big problem Gaybriel, respect needs to be earned, and Islam is doing it's absolute best, to make sure that does not happen. If you want an example of systemic bigotry, sexism and racism, check out the koran. As long as we have extremists choosing to interpret the incomprehensible mish mash of competing ideals presented under Islam, as the perfect truth, in 'whatever way we want to interpret it on the day', then we will see conflict with people who do not like oppression and violence, 'unless you do it our way', messages from Islamic spokespeople, which are notoriously hard to categorise, as every second nutjob claims to be a mullah or mufti.

respect as in common manners and etiquette. is it too much to ask?

sometimes I really wonder about people

I mean- if you're going to talk to someone with disrespect, unless they're mother theresa- how do you expect to have a constructive conversation in the first place?

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 10:08pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 29th, 2008 at 9:31pm: gaybriel - what a load of rot. (translation: I'm not free to openly attack and disparage Islam, so it's not much of an invitation) Donald - sounds like a fair invitation  (translation: Ah one of my fellow anti-Islamic racist mates will let me come over and openly bag Islam there) Just speak openly and honestly here sprint, you're amongst friends. No need to hide your intentions. You're a wacist! (Translation: Oh sh1t! They're onto us. Let's call them wacists even though Islam is a religion so they get a false sense of guilt. Maybe then they'll shut up. In the meantime, suckers like Gabriel will back us up. Even though it's quite clear that if Gabriel ever lived among Muslims she would be thoroughly opposed to Islam since the lifestyle she enjoys now would be lost, as she would cooped up in a kitchen all day, massaging her husbands feet and singing his praises.) Sprint may be anti-Islamic, Abu. But I'm pretty sure he's not wacist like myself.

I do live among muslims.

and people now use the term racist as a descriptor for those who espouse beliefs about cultural incompatability or who are anti-religion.

the term has evolved so it's inclusive of other things.

however often islamaphobia (prefer that word?) is coupled with racism, as people conflate muslims with arabs and derive their prejudice from each of these things

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 10:06pm:

gaybriel - it is rot to deal with extreme people in "moderation and respectfully." They'll totally ignore and run over you. Abu - that's the aussie way. Everything's open to being bagged.

well let me ask you this sprint- if you don't change your behaviour, how do you expect to get a different result?

perhaps if you tried being respectful in the way you talk to others- you would find discussions much more fruitful

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 8:27pm:

mozzaok wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 11:07am: Quote: anyone is welcome to discuss islam in extremism exposed as long as it is done respectfully Big problem Gaybriel, respect needs to be earned, and Islam is doing it's absolute best, to make sure that does not happen. If you want an example of systemic bigotry, sexism and racism, check out the koran. As long as we have extremists choosing to interpret the incomprehensible mish mash of competing ideals presented under Islam, as the perfect truth, in 'whatever way we want to interpret it on the day', then we will see conflict with people who do not like oppression and violence, 'unless you do it our way', messages from Islamic spokespeople, which are notoriously hard to categorise, as every second nutjob claims to be a mullah or mufti. respect as in common manners and etiquette. is it too much to ask? sometimes I really wonder about people I mean- if you're going to talk to someone with disrespect, unless they're mother theresa- how do you expect to have a constructive conversation in the first place?

I agree. That's the same mentality the Muslims use to side with terrorists - they refuse to give the west the same 'respect' until they earn it by giving in to whatever demands they make. It rules out peace. Just like that approach on a forum rules out meaingful dialogue. People deserve respect, upfront, as human beings. It is disrespect that must be earned, not respect. Only a very bitter man would go through life disrespecting everyone until they proved themselves. Who would bother trying to earn the respect of a man like that?

gaybriel - the muslims here earned my disrespect by banning people, by threatening others, by deleting MANY posts, by avoiding MANY questions, by abusing most people here, by their arrogant attitude.


Hey, but that's what their religion tells them to do.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 10:39pm:

gaybriel - the muslims here earned my disrespect by banning people, by threatening others, by deleting MANY posts, by avoiding MANY questions, by abusing most people here, by their arrogant attitude. Hey, but that's what their religion tells them to do.

and if I take your words as a truthful account of the situation- where does that leave us?

does forgiveness come into play? is your basic respect for others so easily swayed forever?

perhaps it would be better to try and work out a mutual accord whereby both parties start again? has this been tried? or are old grievances just continually brought forth?

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 9:35pm:

I agree. That's the same mentality the Muslims use to side with terrorists - they refuse to give the west the same 'respect' until they earn it by giving in to whatever demands they make. It rules out peace. Just like that approach on a forum rules out meaingful dialogue. People deserve respect, upfront, as human beings. It is disrespect that must be earned, not respect. Only a very bitter man would go through life disrespecting everyone until they proved themselves. Who would bother trying to earn the respect of a man like that?

thaaaaankyou!

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 30^th, 2008 at 8:29pm:

I do live among muslims. and people now use the term racist as a descriptor for those who espouse beliefs about cultural incompatability or who are anti-religion. the term has evolved so it's inclusive of other things. however often islamaphobia (prefer that word?) is coupled with racism, as people conflate muslims with arabs and derive their prejudice from each of these things

People also use the word, quite effectively I might add, to end a discussion because the amount of people that will run away. I'm not a racist or a runner.

As I have said in a previous post, phobias are irrational fears. The fact that an identifiable political/religious movement has a rational identifiable goal means that opposing that goal can also be rational. A healthy dialogue should allow witnesses to the conversation to check of a list of competing interests and see what suits them.

Gabriel.


Quote:

I do live among muslims.

Aha... In the words of Bart Simpson, I'm not calling you a liar, but... -I'm not quite sure how to finish that sentence.  :)



Quote:

and people now use the term racist as a descriptor for those who espouse beliefs about cultural incompatability or who are anti-religion.

No, 'people' don't use that term as a descriptor for cultural incompatability and anti-religion. Multiculturalism ideologists and anti-wacists use that term.  

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 4:24pm:

[quote author=DonaldTrump link=1225243189/0#3 date=1225261193] [quote] anyone is welcome to discuss islam in extremism exposed as long as it is done respectfully

You don't even hear how ridiculous this statement is.

Exposing extremism in and of Islam with respect?  Respect for what? Exposing a religion avowedly committed to re=primitivising the world with respect?

Can we now be openly antagonistic, suspicious, outraged, and hostile towards our own culture only? The 'cultural other', no matter how barbaric,  is to be respected?

How bizarre it would be if we demanded that muslims speak of western, lliberal, Australian culture only with respect. Yet few dare to bat an eyelid when faced with such outlandish and ridiculous demands by muslims.

Respect must be earned. That is the only way it is respect. Otherwwise it is submission (oops).

gaybriel -
Quote:

I do live among muslims.

ask them about praising their paedophile prophet then.

why not, too scared ??

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 11:44am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 30th, 2008 at 10:39pm: gaybriel - the muslims here earned my disrespect by banning people, by threatening others, by deleting MANY posts, by avoiding MANY questions, by abusing most people here, by their arrogant attitude. Hey, but that's what their religion tells them to do. and if I take your words as a truthful account of the situation- where does that leave us? does forgiveness come into play? is your basic respect for others so easily swayed forever? perhaps it would be better to try and work out a mutual accord whereby both parties start again? has this been tried? or are old grievances just continually brought forth?

And I have trouble believing that you are not a muslim GAYBRIEL, WHO JUST THINKS THAT LYING WILL MAKE YOU SEEM MORE CREDIBLE.

So, where do we stand?

We have you as the non-muslim defender of Islam, who just pipes in with a lot of "be fair"'s, we have Malik, in absentia, who was the only muslim who used this site, that could construct any cohesive argument, but also a temperamental hothead, who is off studying the koran in the middle east.
We have Abu, who is passionate, but lacking in, credibility, authoritativeness, and experience, and we have( suppressed mirth) Lestat ;D ;D ;D ;D, who is ?( I cannot think of a description which will not attract the wrath of the mods for this, so you will need to supply your own) and I have never seen a comment critical of any aspect of Islam from any of them.

I have not even seen many response that could even be considered as open and honest.

So to focus on sprint's frustration, without examining how he came to that point, is demonstrative of your unfairness in judging him, as you challenge others for judging Islam.

I have given sprint, and christianity heaps, and he has never been anything but polite and honest to me, whereas the muslim posters have openly lied about me, and to me, I notice things like that, perhaps you should look a little closer, before jumping on your judgemental pony.

That is very well said. Probably the end of the 'dialogue'.

She's not Muslim.

No?
then she's an apologist/collaborator/moderator...... etc, etc, etc

Were we officially told she was found acceptable by the Muslims here to mod the islam forum?  Did I miss that?

Whatever she is, I think it's daft she's the mod in the Islam and Extremism forums. I think she's far too sympathetic to Islam to be a good mod in the extremism forum, it should go to someone else. She would be ok for the Islam forum, being the muslim sympathiser.

Not so long ago I was posting very similar stuff to her, and I had similar accusations levelled at me - though not the accusation that I am a Muslim. Let people make up their own minds.

I am. I posted what I thought, I'm not forcing anyone to think the same.

I don't think she is muslim.
I put that in my post to show how an opinion drawn from too little information is worthless.
It was to highlight her judgemental stance about sprint.

It would be a whole lot simpler if you just said what you actually meant.

Yes I can be devilishly tricky.
I did think the following line where I said that we have a non-muslim chiming in with her "be Fair's" may have been enough for those with a modicum of nouse to suss out, and then finishing with the comment of being judgemental about sprint may have helped join the dots.

But apparently not.

I'm telling you she's not a Muslim.

Are you frickin thick?

I never thought she was.
I just explained that.
You aren't american are you?

How do you know I was referring to you?

Either way, you still hurt my feelings.

Sorry Easel, I knew that "american"slur, was a bit too much.

I'd rather be thick than American.

Apology accepted.

Mozz not everyone is going to mull over your every word to root out the 'true meaning'. It is not going to be obvious to everyone what you really think, and which comment was the lie and which was the truth.

nah, garbriel is not a muslim.   That should make no difference anyway

imho she feels there is an unjust biased agaisnt islam in here.  By "siding" with the inderdog that evens it up a bit.
I also have tried to ...... elicit nice comments from Abu from the koran.

gaybriel wants to be overly fair. Wonder if she is a librian ?


Good on you gaybriel, though we disagree on some things, I agree with your ethics.

freediver wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 9:10am:

Mozz not everyone is going to mull over your every word to root out the 'true meaning'. It is not going to be obvious to everyone what you really think, and which comment was the lie and which was the truth.

Well if "HE" can move in mysterious ways, why can't I be obtuse too?

mozzaok wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 6:19am:

Are you frickin thick? I never thought she was. I just explained that. You aren't american are you?

Uh oh... Someone hasn't had his cup of cocoa, then...

easel wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 6:12am:

I'm telling you she's not a Muslim.

I'm actually starting to have my suspicions.

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 5:53pm:

easel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2008 at 6:12am: I'm telling you she's not a Muslim. I'm actually starting to have my suspicions.

It doesn't really matter, a discussion should be centered on a message not on the messenger, otherwise it would deteriorate into banana tossing competition.

tallowood wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2008 at 7:39pm:

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Nov 3rd, 2008 at 5:53pm: easel wrote on Nov 3rd, 2008 at 6:12am: I'm telling you she's not a Muslim. I'm actually starting to have my suspicions. It doesn't really matter, a discussion should be centered on a message not on the messenger, otherwise it would deteriorate into banana tossing competition.

It's important to me because I want to know if I'm wasting my time debating about certain topics involving Islam with her or not. In a topic about Islam, a Muslim will never give up and even lie about it to win the debate, whereas with a non-Muslim, even a bigoted anti-racist, there's a small, yet possible chance you can reason with them and have a meaningful discussion and draw some conclusions.

I'm not a big fan of topics going for 100 posts, and it will occur if I'm debating a Muslim and I don't know it. I'll just merrily continue the topic with the impossible hope of reasoning with a Muslim about certain topics involving Islam.

donald - what  ?
Are you saying the average muslim is SO extremely prejudiced toward their oppressive murderous cult with the sex-addicted  paedophillic leader they will NEVER see anything wrong with it ?

funny, that's been my experience also.

So much to reply to!
ok....


Quote:

People also use the word, quite effectively I might add, to end a discussion because the amount of people that will run away. I'm not a racist or a runner. As I have said in a previous post, phobias are irrational fears. The fact that an identifiable political/religious movement has a rational identifiable goal means that opposing that goal can also be rational. A healthy dialogue should allow witnesses to the conversation to check of a list of competing interests and see what suits them.

I agree- many people cry ‘wolf’ about racism. It’s very frustrating and inhibits constructive conversation.

I can be guilty of this myself but I do try not to have a reflex reaction to things- I’m not always successful. Luckily I have people around me to give me perspective as well.



Quote:

You don't even hear how ridiculous this statement is. Exposing extremism in and of Islam with respect?  Respect for what? Exposing a religion avowedly committed to re=primitivising the world with respect? Can we now be openly antagonistic, suspicious, outraged, and hostile towards our own culture only? The 'cultural other', no matter how barbaric,  is to be respected? How bizarre it would be if we demanded that muslims speak of western, lliberal, Australian culture only with respect. Yet few dare to bat an eyelid when faced with such outlandish and ridiculous demands by muslims. Respect must be earned. That is the only way it is respect. Otherwwise it is submission (oops).

Respect for other posters and for other human beings. You can show outrage and dislike etc without being nasty or degrading about it. I’m sure you’ll disagree- but to be honest it’s just a way of keeping things constructive. Throwing around insults, being nasty etc does little towards contributing to discussion.


Quote:

ask them about praising their paedophile prophet then. why not, too scared ??

I have asked


Quote:

And I have trouble believing that you are not a muslim GAYBRIEL, WHO JUST THINKS THAT LYING WILL MAKE YOU SEEM MORE CREDIBLE. So, where do we stand?

If I were muslim I wouldn’t hide it- because I wouldn’t consider it to be something that discredits me.

As for my personal beliefs – I believe in God but I don’t belong to a particular religion. I was bapitsed catholic and went to an Anglican school


Quote:

I have never seen a comment critical of any aspect of Islam from any of them.

You have seen them from me if you care to look.


Quote:

So to focus on sprint's frustration, without examining how he came to that point, is demonstrative of your unfairness in judging him, as you challenge others for judging Islam.

I focus upon sprint’s frustration because he created this thread. I have also made a few comments to Abu about his attitude and also to Lestat- I can’t remember if I went into detail with them- but they did not create a topic complaining about others.


Quote:

No? then she's an apologist/collaborator/moderator...... etc, etc, etc Were we officially told she was found acceptable by the Muslims here to mod the islam forum?  Did I miss that?

Again- not a muslim.

Are you officially told when people are made moderators in other forums?


Quote:

Whatever she is, I think it's daft she's the mod in the Islam and Extremism forums. I think she's far too sympathetic to Islam to be a good mod in the extremism forum, it should go to someone else. She would be ok for the Islam forum, being the muslim sympathiser.

A few people have said such things yet fail to provide examples of poor modding.


Quote:

nah, garbriel is not a muslim.   That should make no difference anyway imho she feels there is an unjust biased agaisnt islam in here.  By "siding" with the inderdog that evens it up a bit. I also have tried to ...... elicit nice comments from Abu from the koran. gaybriel wants to be overly fair. Wonder if she is a librian ? Good on you gaybriel, though we disagree on some things, I agree with your ethics.

Lol- not a librarian! That would be fun though- surrounded by all the books. Mind you I probably wouldn’t do any actual work- just bury myself in a corner somewhere and read :P

I have seen Gaybriel post what could be criticism of Islam - usually qualified with 'if that were true'.

I was told when you were made mod of the Extremism forum gaybriel.

I'd like to see a list of your Muslim critical comments...  In fact I'd suspect if you tallied up the pro and con ones I'd expect the pro to outnumber the cons by at least 20 to 1.

Do let us know when you're done Grendel.

Goodnight.

Why did the blonde jump off the cliff?

She thought Libra wings could fly.

;)

Grendel wrote on Nov 4^th, 2008 at 10:50pm:

I was told when you were made mod of the Extremism forum gaybriel. I'd like to see a list of your Muslim critical comments...  In fact I'd suspect if you tallied up the pro and con ones I'd expect the pro to outnumber the cons by at least 20 to 1.

well then I suggest you complain to the person who failed to tell you this time

I'm going to post a list- people can just look through my posts. I never said I was more critical than supportive- I just pointed out that, contrary to some claims, I have been critical of islam and muslims