This thread opened to put offtopic comments from another thread about circumcision on

this one from ABu

Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #25 - Today at 12:33am      Quote:
the covenant was with Isaac only

That was claimed later, but originally the Bible said this:

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Gen 17:23-26 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. And Abraham [was] ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son [was] thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

The covenant was made with the circumcision and the circumcision was done with Ishmael (pbuh).

Also the Israelites continued inter-marrying with the Ishmaelites at least up until the time of Moses (pbuh) and perhaps beyond, indicating they still considered them a nation that was part of the covenant. However, sometime after this, they considered them seperate, and began to slander them in their book, and that's probably when they added in the parts about the covenant being with Isaac (pbuh). Also with Abraham (pbuh) sacrificing his "Only son", only one time did he have an "Only son" and that was Ishmael, not Isaac (pbut).

Quote:
Ishmaelites worshipped many other own tribal gods for many centuries after

They did eventually fall into idolatry, agreed, and that was probably when the Israelites stopped intermarrying with them. But it was probably more than 1000 years after the time of Ishmael (pbuh).

tallowood added this

Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #22 - Today at 12:53am      If the circumcision is to believed as the covenant with a god then apart from Jews, some Cristians and Moslems following people are all in the covenant as well:

Australian aboriginal from Western Desert and Arnhem Land.
West African animist such as the Dogon and Dowayo, Urhobo of southern Nigeria.
Nilotic peoples such as the Kalenjin and Maasai.
Polynesians of Samoa, Tonga, Niue,  Tikopia, Fijians and Vanuatuans.

Of course may be they all are "the lost tribe of Israel" but I doubt that.


Also "Early depictions of circumcision are found in cave drawings and Ancient Egyptian tombs, though some pictures may be open to interpretation"

Abu added this

Re: Jews, progressing to Christians, then muslims ??
Reply #24 - Today at 8:30pm      
Quote:
If the circumcision is to believed as the covenant with a god then apart from Jews

The act of circumcision by Abraham and Ishmael (pbut) was the sign of the covenant. Their individual act, not the act of Aborigines.

anyway that is only one of the passages which points towards the fact the covenant was originally with Ishmael (pbuh). Another is the promise of the Nile to the Euphrates:

Genesis 15:18-19 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [a] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-  the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites,

And in the 7th. century, this promise came to pass, when the sons of Ishmael (pbuh) who was circumcised in the covenant with his father in the same day, came to rule over all the lands between the Nile and the Euphrates, during the early Islamic expansion. Never throughout all the time of the Kingdoms of Israel did the sons of Isaac (pbuh) come to rule over all that land. and the sons of Ishmael (pbuh) have ruled over it for a good 1200 years, with the exception of the first Crusader established kingdom and the current one.  
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Rulers were Turks.

In the 7th. century? I don't think so.

Need to take a history lesson.

Even though later rulers were (ie. after about 500 years), they were Muslims, who are the spiritual descendants of the Abrahamic/Ishmaelite line.

this is a already thread to cater to offtopic comments.
You can start any future offtopic threads all by yourself

Keep ontopic
take your history class to another thread if you want to discuss it..

Sprint :-  "Deleted by SprintCyclist due to it being an offtopic comment on an offtopic thread.

keep to the plan, feel free to start new threads on whatever you wish."

From sprintcyclist.

Take history and any offtopic comment to its own thread.