Forget about atheism for sec....



If God, really is God...

If [as the Bible suggests] God is [a] spirit, and that men have bodies composed of earth...
.....what is God's purpose, in our 'placement' here, what is God's 'interest' in us, as individuals?






I suspect that i am a rather weird Bible student.

I believe that we [mankind] are those 'angels' spoken of here in Revelation....

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



I believe that the redemption that is spoken of throughout out Bible, speaks of our spirit[ual] redemption [of our being given a chance of a return to God's presence], because of God's mercy, and because of God's recognition of our deception by SATAN.

But that is just what i suppose.


Revelation 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


Isaiah 44:22
I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
23  Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.



I believe that the Bible is a book full of stories, of which, many are recognisable as parables, explaining God's plan, for our redemption.

I believe that 'Israel' is [Bible] 'code' for God's ppl, for those who have [self] chosen, to be the redeemed from the earth.




Dictionary...
parable = = a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson.


Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16  But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.


1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Psalms 25:12
What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.


Psalms 25:14
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.



Hmmm...

The secret of the LORD is with them that fear God.

Throughout the Bible is the suggestion that those on this earth, who do wicked and evil, are ppl who have no fear of God.

i.e. They have no conscience ???

Yadda wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 11:34pm:

I suspect that i am a rather weird Bible student.

Good. We have something in common.  ;D

muso wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 8:10am:

Yadda wrote on Nov 22nd, 2008 at 11:34pm: I suspect that i am a rather weird Bible student. Good. We have something in common.  ;D

muso,

We are in agreement.

I knew that would happen, one day.

;)


p.s.
I'm holding my breathe, for tomorrow too.

Quote:

The secret of the LORD is with them that fear God. Throughout the Bible is the suggestion that those on this earth, who do wicked and evil, are ppl who have no fear of God. i.e. They have no conscience ???

Fear as a control mechanism has been around since the year dot. It exists within religions and outside of religions. Politicians use it, parents use it, your friends use it and animals also find it to be a useful tool.

Savvy humans may like to add "guilt" into the equation to achieve a double whammy effect... eg: Advertising.

IMO, belief in God has nothing to do with having a conscience, and sometimes I wonder if some people look to religions because they're trying to clear their conscience. It seemed to work for Amrozi and his buddies.

If God is all knowing, all loving and all forgiving, then there should be nothing to fear.
IMO, there's nothing there to fear.
There's enough to fear in the real world without having to worry about a boogeyman in the afterlife.

Amadd wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 1:04pm:

Fear as a control mechanism has been around since the year dot. It exists within religions and outside of religions. Politicians use it, parents use it, your friends use it and animals also find it to be a useful tool. Savvy humans may like to add "guilt" into the equation to achieve a double whammy effect... eg: Advertising. IMO, belief in God has nothing to do with having a conscience, and sometimes I wonder if some people look to religions because they're trying to clear their conscience. It seemed to work for Amrozi and his buddies. If God is all knowing, all loving and all forgiving, then there should be nothing to fear. IMO, there's nothing there to fear. There's enough to fear in the real world without having to worry about a boogeyman in the afterlife.

Amadd,

Death is what many men fear.

So, the philosophy of many,
..."Eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow we die!"

And most men do try to sate their desires, because [self] pleasure is their 'God'.
....many times, without conscience.

But it does seem to be an empty, and unsatisfying life, for very many.

Have they actually taken an incorrect path [in life]?





You say there is nothing [there] to fear.

Amadd,

Look at this world, look at the place where the hearts of men [living such lives as you seem to endorse], have brought us.

If i were you, i would be afraid.

I would be very afraid.

But i am not you.

My fear of God, is mixed with my joy, at his righteousness.


+++++++


Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:


Proverbs 8:32
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33  Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34  Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35  For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36  But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Quote:

So, the philosophy of many, ..."Eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow we die!"

It's not a bad philosophy if used in the right context. I believe that all major religions have plenty of good philiosophy if used properly. No doubt you'd agree that non-religious philosophy has it's good points too.


Quote:

Look at this world, look at the place where the hearts of men [living such lives as you seem to endorse], have brought us.

Well the obvious reply is, look at the misery and suffering perpitrated in the name of God.
My God never endorsed any of that, did yours?

Muso has a tag about common sense being a religion, and that makes sense to me.
A religion of common sense would be nice.
The God I see there is the all powerful great unknown creative force of everything that ever has been or ever will be.
This God would see religions per se' as being ridiculous because the only ones who would assume themselves to be so self-righteous as to think they have a more valid understanding than anybody else would in fact be further away from the truth.
This God would send anybody who thinks it's OK to kill or cause suffering in it's name back to kindergarten to learn the very basics of social interactions.
This God would have all scrptures destroyed which include it as being the author.
This God would tell people to use their own common sense to decifer the difference between right and wrong. It's not that hard really.


What I'm trying to say Yadda, is that I think it's ridiculous for anybody to pretend to be spouting God's word. If anybody pretends to know God's intention, then I want some proof.
And IMO, it's also not correct to be using words like "intention", because that's a human characteristic.
"God's truth" may be a better way of putting it.

Then the question would be, do you embrace the truth, or do you try to hide it for personal reasons?
IMO there's no such thing as a book of total truth, just books of opiions.
Common sense will eventually sort the wheat from the chaff.i

Amadd wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 11:20pm:

Quote: So, the philosophy of many, ..."Eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow we die!" It's not a bad philosophy if used in the right context. I believe that all major religions have plenty of good philiosophy if used properly. No doubt you'd agree that non-religious philosophy has it's good points too. [quote]Look at this world, look at the place where the hearts of men [living such lives as you seem to endorse], have brought us.

Well the obvious reply is, look at the misery and suffering perpitrated in the name of God.
My God never endorsed any of that, did yours?
[/quote]


Amadd,

My God, as i perceive him, has created an 'environment' where we reveal ourselves.

My God, as i perceive him, is truly just and merciful.

We place too much emphasis on what God has 'done' [i.e. what he 'allows'], but we miss the obvious.

This current world is what we [mankind] have created through our choices.

Q.
Does God allow this?

A.
Yes. [from my perspective]

Q.
Is God unjust to allow us to commit evil?

A.
Better to make our 'mistakes' here, than in the spirit world.


We are all spiritual beings [i believe], and we come to this physical existence specifically [i believe], to exercise the 'power' of choice [given to each of us, by God],
....in this physical existence.

And in this life, by our choices, we have an 'opportunity' to demonstrate, that we understand the consequences of our choices.

Choice is a mental power, a thought power,
....a spiritual power.

Here, in this 'reality', here on this little planet, our choices have no form, until we express them, physically.

We are 'going to school' here [i believe].

And [i believe that] we come here, to learn, and to come to understand the consequences of 'expressing' our choices.




Quote:

Muso has a tag about common sense being a religion, and that makes sense to me. A religion of common sense would be nice. The God I see there is the all powerful great unknown creative force of everything that ever has been or ever will be. This God would see religions per se' as being ridiculous because the only ones who would assume themselves to be so self-righteous as to think they have a more valid understanding than anybody else would in fact be further away from the truth.

Amadd,

That is a good point, with which i agree.

Personally, i believe that our purpose in being here, is one of learning about ourselves, and learning about our nature.

Self knowledge is a high aim, which we should seek.
....but not vainly.

We should aspire to know ourselves.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:.....





Quote:

This God would send anybody who thinks it's OK to kill or cause suffering in it's name back to kindergarten to learn the very basics of social interactions. This God would have all scrptures destroyed which include it as being the author.

Amadd,

You may not believe it [i know many cannot], but the Bible will reveal the spirit of God to us, if we read it.

I promise you, this is the TRUTH.

The contents, the stories, and the knowledge which the Bible contains, is somehow intrinsically 'joined' with mankind.

Somehow, the Bible can speak to the heart of a man.
....or rather, it is the spirit of God, which will speak to your heart.




Quote:

This God would tell people to use their own common sense to decifer the difference between right and wrong. It's not that hard really.

Man is too vain, too greedy, to ruthless, when left to his own 'devices'.

Man must seek himself, in God, if he will succeed, in achieving his potential.

If you don't believe this, just look at man in this world.





Quote:

What I'm trying to say Yadda, is that I think it's ridiculous for anybody to pretend to be spouting God's word. If anybody pretends to know God's intention, then I want some proof.

Amadd,

I assure you i don't know anything special.

I'm just like you, like others.

I'm seeking truth.

You say you, "...want some proof."

I can't prove anything, to anyone.

Only our own experience in this life, can be our 'proof'.

You have to seek God [TRUTH], yourself.

But most ppl believe in the god of 'common sense'.
....i.e. they continue to eat from the tree [of good and evil] in the garden.

Relying on their own wisdom, and vanity.



[/quote]
And IMO, it's also not correct to be using words like "intention", because that's a human characteristic.
"God's truth" may be a better way of putting it.

Then the question would be, do you embrace the truth, or do you try to hide it for personal reasons?
IMO there's no such thing as a book of total truth, just books of opiions.
Common sense will eventually sort the wheat from the chaff.
[/quote]

Amadd,

Believe that if you will.

I believe that you are mistaken.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Psalms 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psalms 146:3  Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5  Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

G'day Yadda, I'm back.

Getting back to your original question of what you think God's purpose for us might be.
Well, if I believed that the word of the bible was the word of God him/her/it's-self, then I'd believe in the teachings of the bible without question.
But I believe that the (mostly) good word of the bible is the word of men and it's nothing more supernatural than any other philosophy or idealism which is not beyond querstion.

I suppose, in effect, this is my main perception of the difference between theism and atheism.
I believe religious teachings to be the opinions of men (not women), and religious followers believe these words to be the word of God itself.
It's not that I don't believe that there may be some controlling element out there, it's just that I don't believe that any person could profess to know it or be it.

You said:

Quote:

Man is too vain, too greedy, to ruthless, when left to his own 'devices'.

I tend to agree somewhat, but that statement brings up a conundrum of questions, such as:

Why are the Gods that are written of almost always referred to as "He'(a human male) ?

Quote:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:.....

Is this not vanity?

Why is the Vatican City so rich whilst others starve? Is this not greed?

Why does (said) God inflict such terrible events and punishments? Is this not ruthlessness?

It seems to me that religion doesn't look outside the square much at all, it just copies what it sees in the mirror.

If man is not to be trusted, then why would anybody trust those who claim to have heard the word of God?
They are men and therefore vain, greedy, ruthless liars aren't they?

Why would somebody from a bygone era who claimed to have a rulebook from God be trusted over people from our own time?

Why do scriptures reflect the thinking of their time and not our time?

Which of the following statements is more pleasing to you?

"I have faith in God"
or
"I have faith in You"

...be honest now  ;)


IMO, individual opinions are more valuable for any nation than those which have been overly influenced by outside sources such as: religions, advertising, politicians, T.V., peer pressures..etc.
We're all guilty of leaning towards certain beliefs, however, when they're all put into the melting pot called "democracy", we can come up with the best answers humanly possible.
The more freedom of information that is generally available, then the more informed the opinons, and more the better for the results of a democratic process.

I'm sure that every athiest out there would like a rulebook to the purpose of life as much as any religious person.
I think that athiests are generally pretty humble and respectful towards questions that are not yet within the realm of human understanding, but are alway searching for that one more undeniable gem of information.

A person's perspective is mostly influenced by the evironment of their upbringing, I think.
For example, If you were raised in Saudi Arabia, then you'd probably be muslim and have a different perspective.

If you have the time and MB's available to view these different perspectives, then I'd like to hear your opinion on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCoXarhAQaI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNekfKfth6Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBjO2wFkaVw

Amadd wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 1:15am:

Why are the Gods that are written of almost always referred to as "He'(a human male) ? Quote: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..... Is this not vanity?

Hi Amadd,

What does it matter if God is male or female?
.....except to a feminist perhaps???
:-?

And isn't that also vanity?

The very distinctive separation between male an female [character], does seem to be important here, due to our 'nature', so to speak.

But there seems to be less importance on this distinction between sexes, in the spirit realm.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.






Quote:

Why is the Vatican City so rich whilst others starve? Is this not greed?

That would really be for the Vatican to answer.

But i don't see a lot of sense, in how organised religion [esp. Christianity] has conducted itself.

Organised religion has always disappointed me.

To me, organised religion has always seemed to be more about internal church politics, and 'greasy poles',
....than meditation on the nature of God, or a search for TRUTH.

Dictionary,
greasy pole = = the difficult route to the top of a profession.




Quote:

Why does (said) God inflict such terrible events and punishments? Is this not ruthlessness?

Amadd,

It could be argued, that [not always, but] many of the terrible things which happen to people, are the result of their own actions, or choices.

Consider, if you have a tooth cavity, why do you go to the dentist, when you have a fair idea the visit is going to involve pain?

Are dentists 'ruthless' persons, who derive some secret and perverse joy, from inflicting pain upon their patients?

At the risk of seeming flippant, all of these things [in our lives] are in any case, unimportant, and will not last very long.


Psalms 103:13
Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14  For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15  As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16  For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.


I can't prove it, but i believe that we all come here merely to experience life, and to then make choices, based on our experiences [so far].

Is God cruel, to expose us to sometimes painful [human] experiences?

It may seem so.

In 200 years [if there is another 200 years of man] will any of what has happened to you today, matter to you at all?

How?

Won't you be dead?

Aren't our lives, and all of the passions we feel [i.e. our feelings of self importance], aren't they just more vanity?

Consider, try to recall every passion you felt as a child, while growing up, learning about becoming a person in our society.

Growing up, [if you were like me] you were concerned about your appearance in front of your peers, about the clothes others chose for you to wear, about how you would cope with each new social experience [i.e. 1st day at school, 1st day at high school, etc].

Think about the real passion and anticipation you once felt, in your longing for your 1st 'grown up' party dress, or your 1st computer game, or your desire for your very own, 1st mobile phone, or when you wanted [to buy] your 1st car.

Now STOP.

Now imagine, that you didn't grow up in the 1st world, but you were a child growing up in a small, 3rd world village.

Your family are poor, your daily chores are to work in a vegetable garden, and find firewood for your family, and to oversee your younger siblings.

You only have one set of clothes, no shoes, and you are lucky if you have 2 meals a day.

Now STOP again.

Whichever environment you grew up in [1st or 3rd world], you still would have experienced many of the same human passions, and hopes, and disappointments of life.

But many of the cultural 'triggers' to these human passions [experiences] may have been literally, worlds apart.

If there is a God, is God cruel, to give us the experience, the pain, and the disappointments, of our life?

Again, at the risk of seeming flippant, all of these things are largely unimportant, in themselves [i believe].

Er, 200 years.

It is what we learn, and what we take with us [if you can believe that], which is important [in my opinion].

[This discussion has reminded me of that Godfathers song.... Birth, School, Work, Death
....have a listen to the lyrics if you can access it.
;)   ]


Ecclesiastes 2:12
And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done.
13  Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
14  The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
15  Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
16  For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
17  Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.


MORE.....

CONTINUED.....


Amadd wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 1:15am:

It seems to me that religion doesn't look outside the square much at all, it just copies what it sees in the mirror.

You mean you think [organised] religion seems to be 'incestuous', and too self absorbed?

:)

I agree.






Quote:

If man is not to be trusted, then why would anybody trust those who claim to have heard the word of God? They are men and therefore vain, greedy, ruthless liars aren't they?

Amadd,

Good point!
;)

And confirming your point, have a read here,

'THE PART THAT OUR PLEASURE PLAYS'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225668669/0#0

About King David, who in lust, took another man's wife, then had the womans lawful husband killed.

David proved to have a flawed character, yet he was the 'vessel' through which much of the Psalms where given.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa001.html#top

Returning to your point,
All i can suggest, is that the search for God, is the search for the spirit of TRUTH.

My experience is, that if a person will search the scriptures, the spirit of TRUTH will enter their heart and guide them [and they will know it].

And i suggest, read the Psalms, many of them are very inspiring, perhaps in them you will find the spirit of TRUTH.

Many ppl have found the spirit of TRUTH.

But if you don't search for God, more than likely, the spirits of this world will claim you.


Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Every choice we make has a consequence.

You choose.

Thats not promoting fear.

Thats simply saying, "Look for God, OR, don't."

What is important to you?

That, is *your* choice.






Quote:

Why would somebody from a bygone era who claimed to have a rulebook from God be trusted over people from our own time? Why do scriptures reflect the thinking of their time and not our time?

The spirit of TRUTH, the spirit of God, is the spirit of liberty and joy.

The spirit of God, is the spirit of liberty, it is not a spirit of bondage.

I would suggest that it is a mistake to surrender ourselves, to a spirit of bondage and fear.




Quote:

Which of the following statements is more pleasing to you? "I have faith in God" or "I have faith in You" ...be honest now  ;)

"I have faith in You" ??

I don't understand,
....'You', who?



But let me say, I try to have faith in God.

I try to be led by God.

But like David [above], i do live in the world, and i am influenced by it.

Will God forgive me, for my mistakes, like he did David?

That is God's promise.

And, "I have faith in God."

But if you wish to enjoy that promise, you must take up God's offer [of adoption].


Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:




Quote:

IMO, individual opinions are more valuable for any nation than those which have been overly influenced by outside sources such as: religions, advertising, politicians, T.V., peer pressures..etc. We're all guilty of leaning towards certain beliefs, however, when they're all put into the melting pot called "democracy", we can come up with the best answers humanly possible. The more freedom of information that is generally available, then the more informed the opinons, and more the better for the results of a democratic process.

Amadd,

You mean, sorta like how, for example, in its democratic principles, the United Nations, is clearly one of 'the best answers humanly possible'???
:D  :D  :D


Google,
united nations corruption
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=united+nations+corruption&btnG=Search&meta=
only 4,620,000 hits!

:P

But i do agree, about freedom of information, being good, desirable.





Quote:

A person's perspective is mostly influenced by the evironment of their upbringing, I think. For example, If you were raised in Saudi Arabia, then you'd probably be muslim and have a different perspective.

I agree, about environment and upbringing.

Perhaps i could have been born a muslim?

Would i have remained one?

There is evidence that today, that many muslims are renouncing ISLAM.

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/


Back on environment and upbringing.

When i started school i was living in a children's home, later i lived with foster parents, and i was also homeless [in Adelaide] for a while.

I'm in my late 50's now.

If you look at the statistics, a lot of ppl from similar circumstances, have ended up in goal, or 'in trouble'.

I never did, i was lucky.

Or maybe i had someone looking out for me?

I started reading the Bible when i was 17, after i experienced a crisis in my life at that time.
....[i never joined a church]

At that time, reading the Bible helped me to see my life, in perspective.





MORE......

CONTINUED.....



Amadd wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 1:15am:

If you have the time and MB's available to view these different perspectives, then I'd like to hear your opinion on them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCoXarhAQaI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNekfKfth6Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBjO2wFkaVw

Amadd,

I can't promise, but if i can find time, i will try to have at these.

I'm 200km from my capital city, and on [21 kb/s] dialup, and 9 min's of YOUTUBE video, takes me 2+ hours to D/L,
....so i will not D/L something unless it looks interesting [to me!].

Well I thought you had to be crazy to believe in god, but using "dial up"???
now THAT is crazy ;D

Just joking.

I will precis those clips for you so you don't have to waste your bandwidth, I liked them, but would not download them on dial up.

First was a muslim one, saying how allahs teachings of the universe prove he is the "only" god, usual muslim arrogance.

Second one is an atheist looking at the universe and showing it is big, really big, in fact really, really, really big, and shows how in the context of the universe, the earth is an insignificant dot.
It then goes on to say how arrogant must we be to assume that the universe was created for us(insignificant dots, on an insignificant dot), and how extremely arrogant we must be to further exclude which dots among us it was created for, depending on what we choose to believe(hindu, jew, etc.)

Needless to say, I really liked this one, as it echoed my own ideas on the subject.

The third one was a christian one, which I didn't really get, it was like a bit of the previous two ideas overlapped, the universe is huge(the preacher starts spouting huge distances to display how big it is), but unlike the atheist who finds the magnitude humbling, and accepts that the creation of the universe is so imponderable as to be almost abstract, the preacher seems to use it to display how cool god is, and aren't we lucky he is "our" god.

God is God?
No, but god is love, nothing more or less, and as such is just as elusive, imponderable, and desirable, and not something which needs to be classified, or worshipped or humanised in any way, all attempts to do so are a diminution of it's true worth and meaning.

I am an atheist, I don't believe in god, but I do believe in love, all the best, in fact, only, decent aspects of religious belief can be just as well understood by transposing the word love, for god.

There is something undefinable.

Christians tend to personify it and call it God. Buddhists talk of Karma - a kind of cosmic law of cause and effect. You can call it the Universe or nature or even a set of numerical constants that define something about the way things are, but as soon as you attach a label, it devalues it to a system of preconceptions, semantics and prejudices.

Taoists don't dare define it, although the Tao has been translated as the way, or just how things are, or the natural harmony of the universe. All words create ripples in the Tao that just add confusion, and hamper true understanding.

Something very cool happened last night. People went outside and looked at the night sky. Now in the past, I have had some of my greatest insights while observing the night sky, including meteor showers. Pick a secluded bush location without lights or noises and you suddenly become aware of being just a part of the cosmos.

It's a strange feeling - very peaceful with little ripples of emotions such as awe accompanied with an almost unworldly clarity of thought. You lose track of time and things that are otherwise inscrutable just click into place. The grand scale and emptiness of the cosmos becomes  something that is a comfort, not a threat, because you become part of that greater whole.

- and no - I don't do drugs. My drug is life.

So I don't know whether to call it God or Gaia, but even to express it in words is to cheapen the experience. Sacred books and their authors through the years have probably tried to capture that which is wild and magnificent.

I've seen Elk and deer on moutainsides in remote parts of Canada, I've heard Pitjinjara people speaking in excited tones in their native language about one rocky landmark or another in the middle of the Tanami desert. I've seen wild whales plying their way through the ocean.

I can read about it of course, but spirituality is to sacred books as wild deer on a mountain top is to 25 year old canned venison. It's a bit stale and non vital.

Somehow there is something missing.  

mozzaok wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 11:12am:

Well I thought you had to be crazy to believe in god, but using "dial up"??? now THAT is crazy Grin Just joking.

Such is life mozzaok, when you are on, the 3 amigos remote copper network.
:'(

Its slow, but my dialup plan is unlimited and cheap.

ADSL is not available.

I could get satellite here, but a usable plan is still a lil too pricey for me atm.



Quote:

I will precis those clips for you so you don't have to waste your bandwidth, I liked them, but would not download them on dial up.

mozzaok,

Thanks, appreciated.



Quote:

First was a muslim one, saying how allahs teachings of the universe prove he is the "only" god, usual muslim arrogance. Second one is an atheist looking at the universe and showing it is big, really big, in fact really, really, really big, and shows how in the context of the universe, the earth is an insignificant dot. It then goes on to say how arrogant must we be to assume that the universe was created for us(insignificant dots, on an insignificant dot), and how extremely arrogant we must be to further exclude which dots among us it was created for, depending on what we choose to believe(hindu, jew, etc.) Needless to say, I really liked this one, as it echoed my own ideas on the subject. The third one was a christian one, which I didn't really get, it was like a bit of the previous two ideas overlapped, the universe is huge(the preacher starts spouting huge distances to display how big it is), but unlike the atheist who finds the magnitude humbling, and accepts that the creation of the universe is so imponderable as to be almost abstract, the preacher seems to use it to display how cool god is, and aren't we lucky he is "our" god.

From your description, i think i would also be attracted to view the 2nd video.

As to the vastness of the universe, and the 'theological' implications of that vastness, i did like athos logic as it was presented here....

".....Why jump to dogmatic conclusions about the Universe ('there is no God'), when we know so infinitely little about it? Such claims, frankly, seem arrogant."

'Dawkins' "proof" that God doesn't exist'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1195014419/124#124



Quote:

God is God? No, but god is love, nothing more or less, and as such is just as elusive, imponderable, and desirable, and not something which needs to be classified, or worshipped or humanised in any way, all attempts to do so are a diminution of it's true worth and meaning. I am an atheist, I don't believe in god, but I do believe in love, all the best, in fact, only, decent aspects of religious belief can be just as well understood by transposing the word love, for god.

Yep, God is certainly love.

But God [in my experience] also appears to be joy, and peace, and pure happiness.

The way i feel about God, if i were to die today, i would be happy to 'go there'.

But it is not my time yet, and it will come, soon enough, for all of us.



Further on the attributes of God, he has to be a judge too, otherwise the unjust would be permitted to sate themselves in 'heaven' too.
....and then it wouldn't be, 'heaven'.
....as they say, "God forbid!!"
;D

Anyway, my confidence is, that God has it all 'sorted'.
;)

You said,
".....I am an atheist, I don't believe in god,"

I can 'arrogantly' [  ;) , and confidently] say that, one day we will all know him.

All of our choices [within this reality] reveal who we are,
....and that is God's 'joke', upon arrogant and 'clever' men.



Isaiah 25:7
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Isaiah 40:5
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Malachi 3:1
....and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth?

When God is revealed to their hearts, men will be ashamed [of their own arrogance] and be truly fearful of the TRUTH of their circumstance.....

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19  As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20  Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?



Psalms 23:3
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Psalms 25:14
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

muso wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2008 at 2:23pm:

There is something undefinable. Christians tend to personify it and call it God. Buddhists talk of Karma........ ........So I don't know whether to call it God or Gaia, but even to express it in words is to cheapen the experience. Sacred books and their authors through the years have probably tried to capture that which is wild and magnificent. I've seen Elk and deer on moutainsides in remote parts of Canada, I've heard Pitjinjara people speaking in excited tones in their native language about one rocky landmark or another in the middle of the Tanami desert. I've seen wild whales plying their way through the ocean. I can read about it of course, but spirituality is to sacred books as wild deer on a mountain top is to 25 year old canned venison. It's a bit stale and non vital. Somehow there is something missing.

muso,

You said, '...there is something missing.'


I can see why it is, but it does sadden me.


"......There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
HAMLET - William Shakespeare


muso, never give up on TRUTH [searching for it], and i am sure you'll find, what is missing.

Muso, I love Taoism.

Before enlightenment, gathering water chopping wood.
After enlightenment, gathering water chopping wood.

There is too much talking and noise. (not to be confused with good conversation). I love sitting on the verandah at 3am in the dark. Its all so beautiful and quiet. The dog going up the road to visit his girlfriend. the possums with the kids on the back, a resiliant city frog from somewhere down the corner of the yard.

Yadda, I think muso was talking about something being missing in the translation from feeling to writting about it. I could be wrong. To me there is nothing missing in the witnessing.

locutius wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2008 at 12:52pm:

Yadda, I think muso was talking about something being missing in the translation from feeling to writting about it. I could be wrong. To me there is nothing missing in the witnessing.

Sort of. We all experience truth, but some are too blind (or blinded) to see it. You can't get spirituality out of a book.

Yes Yadda, Mozz explained the clips very well, and it's not really worth downloading them with dialup.
The purpose was only to display some different perceptions of essentially the same event.
..and I could've found a better one for the Christianity perception.

Obviously the bible has been of great service to you, and I'm happy that it has achieved it's aim for you.

It's always a bit hard to discuss matters like religions, because one the one hand, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to say to stop believing in what you're believing in if it's important to you and works for you, but on the other hand, my God forces me to say what I think.

I think (or believe) that religious opinions quite often say pretty much the same thing as non-religious opinions, but in a different way.
I don't believe in a "one sock fits all" religion, and I'm more in agreeance that words alone cannot explain a personal human experience without also explaing all other previous experiences, which would put it into a better perspective.
If a picture paints a thousand words, then an experience must paint at least a trillion.
It's not for me to tell anybody what thier opinions and experiences mean to them, and I get pretty pissed when anybody tries to do the same to me.
But I suppose it's just human nature (for survival purposes) to try to make people believe that we know the path to some holy kingdom, when in fact, nobody does.
Professing this knowledge and usurping control of people's personal Gods may make life easier on earth for some.

Amadd wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 12:04am:

Obviously the bible has been of great service to you, and I'm happy that it has achieved it's aim for you. It's always a bit hard to discuss matters like religions, because on the one hand, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to say to stop believing in what you're believing in if it's important to you and works for you, but on the other hand, my God forces me to say what I think.

Well said ! I concur with this 100%. We all have our personal 'God(s)'. The only difference is that I understand, believe and feel mine to be a totally internal function of my brain, while Yadda understands, believes and feels his to be part of the Christian tradition and accordingly attributes creation of the universe and all the rest.  

All people are different. (LOL - and all people are the same too) If it works for you, don't mess with it. The last thing I'd want to do is to make someone stop believing.

If we could all adopt that attitude towards the beliefs of others in a spirit of humility, we'd live in a better, more tolerant world.

It's not religion I have trouble with - it's intolerance.

muso wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2008 at 2:56pm:

locutius wrote on Dec 3rd, 2008 at 12:52pm: Yadda, I think muso was talking about something being missing in the translation from feeling to writting about it. I could be wrong. To me there is nothing missing in the witnessing. Sort of. We all experience truth, but some are too blind (or blinded) to see it. You can't get spirituality out of a book.

.....or out of a 'can of beans'.


muso,

Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book,
.....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset?


Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening?

;)



++++++


Ecclesiastes 2:12
And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done.
13  Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
14  The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
15  Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
16  For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
17  Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Amadd wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 12:04am:

.......It's always a bit hard to discuss matters like religions, because one the one hand, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to say to stop believing in what you're believing in if it's important to you and works for you, but on the other hand, my God forces me to say what I think.

Amadd,

I remember a 'meditation' which i came across some years ago, where someone suggested, that in this life, we don't strictly do those things that we really 'want' to do.

But that we always do the things which we 'must' do [because of the way our internal 'programming' works].

So that in our actions, whether we are 'good', or 'bad', we are often very much 'compelled', in what we do.

Its a worrying concept!
;D

But i think we have to also include the part our conscience plays, in our life decisions, into such contemplation.

And indeed we should consider the influence our conscience has, upon our ['motivating'] internal 'programming'?








Quote:

I think (or believe) that religious opinions quite often say pretty much the same thing as non-religious opinions, but in a different way. I don't believe in a "one sock fits all" religion, and I'm more in agreeance that words alone cannot explain a personal human experience without also explaing all other previous experiences, which would put it into a better perspective. If a picture paints a thousand words, then an experience must paint at least a trillion. It's not for me to tell anybody what thier opinions and experiences mean to them, and I get pretty pissed when anybody tries to do the same to me. But I suppose it's just human nature (for survival purposes) to try to make people believe that we know the path to some holy kingdom, when in fact, nobody does. Professing this knowledge and usurping control of people's personal Gods may make life easier on earth for some.

As the 1970's TV show, 'MONKEY', said, in its opening theme....

"....We are all on a journey, as long as life."

I believe that we should be willing to listen to, and learn from, the experiences of others, but that we should always seek to choose our life path, for ourselves.

I don't believe at all, that enlightenment comes through constraint [or from any 'guru'!], but through the freedom and liberty to experience, and contemplate life's mysteries [and our mistakes], for ourselves.

I believe that we should always travel a path, that we ourselves choose [for ourselves].

Yadda wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 9:54am:

muso, Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book, .....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset? Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening? ;)

You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you.

In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart.

The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct.

muso wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:40am:

You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you. In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart. The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct.

True. Although the language of science is seldom more inspirational than the poetry of faith.

muso wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:40am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:54am: muso, Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book, .....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset? Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening? ;) You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you. In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart. The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct.

Hi muso,

I think we may have explored this point previously....

'ARE THERE SPIRITS IN YOUR HEART?'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225068179/0#0

+
Quote:

remember a 'meditation' which i came across some years ago, where someone suggested, that in this life, we don't strictly do those things that we really 'want' to do. But that we always do the things which we 'must' do [because of the way our internal 'programming' works]. So that in our actions, whether we are 'good', or 'bad', we are often very much 'compelled', in what we do. Its a worrying concept!

I don't really see it as a "worrying concept" any more than a bird is born with wings so it may fly.
We are born with the ability to shape the future to a certain extent, and that is our wings.

Yadda wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 5:14pm:

muso wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 11:40am: Yadda wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 9:54am: muso, Are you suggesting that it is so, so, much more difficult, to find a 'spirituality' by meditating upon concepts, stated within a book, .....rather than contemplating a beautiful sunset? Should we all leave our books on shelves, and just look at sunsets each evening? ;) You can look at sunsets, stars, contemplate your navel, or whatever works for you. In the end if you want to find spirituality, you'll find it within your brain - or as you might say - within your heart. The second might be more poetic, but the first is more anatomically correct. Hi muso, I think we may have explored this point previously.... 'ARE THERE SPIRITS IN YOUR HEART?' http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225068179/0#0

You might have expounded it, but I chose not to comment at the time because I didn't want to be drawn into a meaningless faith based conversation. It was too loaded with a pseudoscientific religious agenda.


Quote:

There is a 'brain' in the heart... Medical scientists back in the 1970's discovered there are small clusters of neural cells ['brain' cells], in the heart.

Well yes, but there are nerve cells all over the body. The cognitive centre of the body is in the brain. Let's not reinvent neuroscience.

The article itself is more like a National Enquirer "here there be monsters" sensationalist piece designed to sell newspapers. I don't see the value in discussing it any further.

Let's keep science and religion separate. The Bible isn't exactly a scientific publication, and it was never intended to be.

The use of the term heart is just poetic. You can relax. It's not a central tenet of your religion. It's just misinterpreted. The more you latch on to unimportant aspects like that, the less credibility you'll end up with.

muso wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 6:20am:

Quote: There is a 'brain' in the heart... Medical scientists back in the 1970's discovered there are small clusters of neural cells ['brain' cells], in the heart. Well yes, but there are nerve cells all over the body. The cognitive centre of the body is in the brain. Let's not reinvent neuroscience. The article itself is more like a National Enquirer "here there be monsters" sensationalist piece designed to sell newspapers. I don't see the value in discussing it any further. Let's keep science and religion separate. The Bible isn't exactly a scientific publication, and it was never intended to be. The use of the term heart is just poetic. You can relax. It's not a central tenet of your religion. It's just misinterpreted. The more you latch on to unimportant aspects like that, the less credibility you'll end up with.

muso,

Science has acknowledged that ppl who have heart transplants, have often 'expressed' the life interests, and 'tastes', of their heart donors.

That is a fact.

If as you suggest, the cognitive centre of the body is in the brain [and only the brain], how can it be, that these occurrences are confirmed [the transfer of 'expressed' life interests, and 'tastes', of heart donors.]?


Dictionary,
cognition = = the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge through thought, experience, and the senses.


muso,

Isn't it more reasonable [and humble] for us to acknowledge, that while we humans may seem to be 'clever' little monkeys, we still [in reality] know very little about ourselves, and our universe?





2 Timothy 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Hmmmm....

".....Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

:P


1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Yadda wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 2:07pm:

muso, Science has acknowledged that ppl who have heart transplants, have often 'expressed' the life interests, and 'tastes', of their heart donors. That is a fact. If as you suggest, the cognitive centre of the body is in the brain [and only the brain], how can it be, that these occurrences are confirmed [the transfer of 'expressed' life interests, and 'tastes', of heart donors.]?

LOL. Science has acknowledged that people who have neurological disorders often claim to be Napolean.

That is a fact.

If as you suggest,  Napolean is dead, how can you explain these scientifically based claims?  ;D

Yadda - Let's make a deal - you stick to the "my God is better than your God" Biblical quotations and others will do the science and logical arguments. When you're stuck fast in the swamp, it's better not to go further into it.  ;)

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. " Martin Luther.

muso wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 11:17am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 2:07pm: muso, Science has acknowledged that ppl who have heart transplants, have often 'expressed' the life interests, and 'tastes', of their heart donors. That is a fact. If as you suggest, the cognitive centre of the body is in the brain [and only the brain], how can it be, that these occurrences are confirmed [the transfer of 'expressed' life interests, and 'tastes', of heart donors.]? LOL. Science has acknowledged that people who have neurological disorders often claim to be Napoleon. That is a fact.

Well scientific studies have shown that these events are real.

And i don't recall seeing any participant claiming, they had received Napoleon's heart.

:P






Quote:

If as you suggest,  Napolean is dead, how can you explain these scientifically based claims?  ;D Yadda - Let's make a deal - you stick to the "my God is better than your God" Biblical quotations and others will do the science and logical arguments. When you're stuck fast in the swamp, it's better not to go further into it.  ;) "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. " Martin Luther.

p.s.

My God, is bigger than your God!

So there!

8-)

Yadda wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 3:41pm:

Well scientific studies have shown that these events are real.

The problem with the chronically religious is that they never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

From your original link:

But most medical professionals - and even many organ- transplant recipients - find such accounts somewhat fantastical.

"The heart is a pump and no more - it is not capable of emotional transfer," said Patti Cook, 68, who got her donor heart at UMC in 1989, and is president of the New Heart Society, a statewide support group. "I've seen this stuff on TV, but I think some people need their 15 minutes of fame. I don't think the idea holds credibility."

About 5 years ago, I was told that unless I started exercising and eating correctly, I'd have a high risk of contracting Cardio vascular disease in the following 5 years.

I was never interested in sport or healthy eating until that particular Nexus in my life.

Now do you suppose that a heart transplant is a rather traumatic life changing experience? - and do you suppose that most people would resign themselves to changing their lifestyles significantly as a result?

Incidentally, I did some research on this. The heart has about 40,000 nerve cells (or neurons), which is a miniscule amount in comparison to the Brain, which has around 10 billion.

On the other hand, the anus has about 100,000 neurons - that's more that twice the amount that the heart has  ;D

Now about this secondary cognitive system, Yadda. Were you really speaking out of your heart?