on the ISLAM board....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227250753/0#0


Quote:

"50 MUSLIM NATIONS PUT UP UN RESOLUTION TO BAN CRITICISM OF ISLAM "....nations would be able to seek extradition and trial abroad of persons who make statements critical or offensive to one or all faiths anywhere in the world." from JTA Global Jewish News Service http://jta.org/news/article/2008/11/20/1001103/op-ed-dont-defend-religion-by-silencing-free-speech" NEW YORK (JTA)—A draft resolution scheduled for consideration by a committee of the United Nations General Assembly threatens to silence criticism of religion. The resolution, circulated by the Organization of the Islamic Conference, representing more than 50 Muslim nations, is perversely being advanced under the guise of protecting human rights. In its current form, the resolution would declare defamation of religion to be a violation of international law. The resolution's drafters hope to circumvent national constitutional protections for freedom of speech, including the United States' own First Amendment, by superseding international law. If the resolution is ultimately adopted, the effort to ban speech defamatory of religion will be a centerpiece of an upcoming U.N. conference against racism, the so-called Durban II meeting, to be held in Geneva next spring. The resolution is the culmination of many years of quiet work by the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), which has set as a goal the criminalization of any "defamation of religion, especially Islam."

A GAG ON CRITICISING ISLAM - WOULD YOU DEFY SUCH A BAN?

If the Australian government adopted a United Nations [?] recommendation, and enacted a law to ban all criticism of ISLAM, would you be prepared to defy that law?

Or would you feel compelled to obey such a law?



If an Australian government adopted such a law, would this be the first steps towards embracing of tyranny?

Wouldn't the adoption of such a law, be counter-intuitive to all common freedoms, a society such as ours enjoys?

Dunno, I'd like to think I'd defy it......but I kind of like having my head attached to my neck.  :P

I think this will bring a lot more people to criticise Islam. And it will get harder and harder for Muslims to claim that these lunatics do not represent Islam. The Americans especially will not tolerate this nonsense.

jordan484 wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 6:19pm:

Dunno, I'd like to think I'd defy it......but I kind of like having my head attached to my neck.  :P

jordan484,

A couple of quotes come readily to mind....



"Is it better to die on your feet, or to live on your knees?"


"Live free, or die."
....NEW HAMPSHIRE STATE MOTO (USA)



and i found a few more.....
:)

"Freedom is not hereditary!"


"None can love freedom so heartily, but good men; the rest have not freedom, but licence."
John Hamilton



one just for you jordan484,
:)

"The difference between a free man and a slave is that a slave values his life more than his freedom."
John Norman


"The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom is Courage."
Thucydides, Pericles' Funeral Oration


"Where justice reigns, 'tis freedom to obey."
James Montgomery

Already posted an article on it... but in a muslim country I wouldn't defy it.

For reasons Jordan mentioned.

But then I have hardly ever bothered with Islam or criticised it...  except here...  (even themn I ignored the forum for ages) which doesn't even amount to a pitence of my life.

It is not a pretty picture, how ISLAMIC regimes deal with those who persistently engage in un-ISLAMIC activities, such as criticising ISLAM ['insulting' ISLAM]....


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7122/1469/320/1-%20Hanging%20Iran%20-%20c%20Men%20cry%20too.jpg
A man cries, in attendance at a public hanging.

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.





Don't go here, if you don't want to see more disturbing images from Iran....
http://difficultimages.blogspot.com/2006/04/cruel-islam-and-iran-is-worst.html




Yet, these punishments are what ISLAMIC clerics living in Australia endorse, for 'insulting' ISLAM.
....these punishments are approved under Sharia.

Nothing to see there, folks, just a few people hanging around.

jordan - you retain a modericum of reality.


"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart."

Ephesians 6:4-6

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 9:01pm:

jordan - you retain a modericum of reality. "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart." Ephesians 6:4-6

sprint,

Who is our earthly master?

I have no earthly master, none i can think of.

I always thought that under our system of government, MP's and governments, were [technically] our employees [our servants]?
.....even though some politicians may at times, think otherwise.

Under our system of government, our elected governments still derive their authority to govern from the ppl who elect them.

That is us [if you are a voter].

If an elected government becomes a tyranny, and becomes unrepresentative, and oppressive, should we obey its laws?





A lot ppl [who have been brainwashed, and deceived, and are] living in [nominally] ISLAMIC states today, think that they should submit themselves, to the tyrants who rule them.

I do not believe that i am 'bound' to submit myself to a tyrants rule.

Maybe i feel that way, because i was born a free person?



++++++


Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.


Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.


Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


2 Corinthians 4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


We speak up, we don't shy away, we do not bend the knee to evil.

We do not submit ourselves to evil, to be the worldly servants of it.

We follow Christ.

Today, is a good day to die.
....though i hope to keep breathing for a few more days yet.


Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22  Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26  For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God [redeemed].
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Yadda - do you work ?

Are your bosses your earthy masters ?
What about the police ? Or justice system?

Should you obey those systems ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 10:53pm:

Yadda - do you work ? Are your bosses your earthy masters ?

No.

If i felt my employer was acting immorally, am i obliged to remain there?





Quote:

What about the police ?

Technically, my servants.

I obey the instructions of police, because on the whole, i believe our current laws, serve justice.
....though many would argue that today, our justice system is becoming dysfunctional [unjust, for some victims of violent crimes, for instance].





Quote:

Or justice system? Should you obey those systems ?

sprint,

If our government changed the law, and the justice system determined that i should cut your head off.

Because you broke our laws, and didn't pray to Allah 5 times a day, or because you changed your religion, should i obey the law?

Should i obey, because i must obey its legal authority?





sprint,

Do we [as Christians] derive our 'moral compass', from those who have worldly authority over us?

I think not.

God tells us what is right and what is wrong, and he has put that knowledge [of what is right and wrong] into our hearts....


Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.




Judges 21:25
In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.


sprint, this is still happening in the world, today, every man does what is right in his own eyes.

Why?

This is all another parable.....

Q.
Who is the [real] king of Israel?

A.
God.

You as a Christian, are a part of Israel, you are NOT a part of the world.

God should be your King.

And you follow his rules.

Which are......

Psalms 34:14
Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Where does peace come from???

Peace comes from, Justice.

Where does Justice thrive.

Justice is prolific, when we [as a society] depart from evil.



ergo.....
Q.
......why is there so little peace in the world today?

A.
There is no justice in the world.

Why?

Again,

Judges 21:25
In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.



Paul summed up, where man has gone wrong.....

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17  And the way of peace have they not known:
18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.



+++++


"And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance
Robert M Pirsig

yadda - anyone can leave their place of employment for any reason.

yes, it is unwise to disobey the police.


we are a fair way from any such scenario you paint.

there is a LOT of peace in the world.

And it is up to us to ensure freedom and peace spreads.

Yadda wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2008 at 11:20pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 23rd, 2008 at 10:53pm: Yadda - do you work ? Are your bosses your earthy masters ? No. If i felt my employer was acting immorally, am i obliged to remain there? Quote: What about the police ? ........................................................................ +++++ "And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?" Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance Robert M Pirsig

Oh dear. What happened to just accepting your lot, such as the kiss of Judas in the Garden of gethsemane, and walking that extra mile, and turning the other cheek?

The Word of God is not something to be manipulated for our own purposes. Even Satan can quote scripture (Luke 4:1-14)

"Thy word is true from the beginning; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever" (Psalm 119)

He who is without sin, let them cast the first stone.

Humilitas

Noone can get into Heaven without the virtue of humility.

I think freedom loving people should stop being squirmish and act now before some crazy religionist state progressed to doctrine of nuclear suicide bombing and acquired the weapon.

tallow - yes, thats the best idea.
I believe that is what US is aiming for.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 24^th, 2008 at 8:10am:

yadda - anyone can leave their place of employment for any reason. yes, it is unwise to disobey the police. we are a fair way from any such scenario you paint. there is a LOT of peace in the world. And it is up to us to ensure freedom and peace spreads.

sprint,

Hmmmm....

I've heard it said,
"ISLAM is peace. And that submission to Allah, is freedom."


You are not thinking of converting [to ISLAM], to pursue those goals are you???
[just kidding!   ;)  ]

yadda - hahahhaha

looks though I just got banned from another muslim chatroom.
and genuinley thought I was behaving.

however do they hope to raise their public profile by this sort of action ??

muso wrote on Nov 24^th, 2008 at 8:18am:

Oh dear. What happened to just accepting your lot, such as the kiss of Judas in the Garden of gethsemane, and walking that extra mile, and turning the other cheek? The Word of God is not something to be manipulated for our own purposes. Even Satan can quote scripture (Luke 4:1-14) "Thy word is true from the beginning; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever" (Psalm 119) He who is without sin, let them cast the first stone. Humilitas Noone can get into Heaven without the virtue of humility.

Psalms 34:18
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Proverbs 16:19
Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.


http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Isllam1.jpg
humble muslim street protest - London

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/ARCHONPRIME/Media%20Images/warfinmosque.jpg
more humble muslims in the UK.


Was something said, about being humble?.....

Controversial mufti attacks Australia in TV interview
Barney Zwartz
January 12, 2007
CONTROVERSIAL Muslim leader Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali has savaged Australia in an interview on Egyptian television, claiming there is no freedom or democracy for Muslims and that English people are the most unjust and dishonest.
The Mufti of Australia said Muslims were more Australian than Anglo-Saxons because they came here voluntarily, that Australians played the "fear card" to keep Muslims down, and that racial prejudice was the reason for the 55-year sentence given to gang rapist Bilal Skaf.
"Anglo-Saxons came to Australia in chains, while we (Muslims) paid our way and came in freedom. We are more Australian than them. Australia is not an Anglo-Saxon country  Islam has deep roots in Australian soil that were there before the English arrived," Sheikh Hilali said.
.....During the half-hour program, Sheikh Hilali said the controversy showed how standards were skewed and claims were fabricated. "There is no freedom and no democracy (for Muslims)  the most dishonest and unjust people are Western people and the English in particular."
over 2 pages...
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/controversial-mufti-attacks-australia-in-tv-interview/2007/01/11/1168105116655.html


We must all seek peace, and be tolerant of others [no matter how evil they are].....

'.....Just like in muslim countries.'
http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/sheik.jpg
image source
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/03/15/out-of-context-fair-go-harmony-under-sharia/


+++++++

Isaiah 57:13
When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
14  And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.
15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16  For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17  For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18  I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19  I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
20  But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21  There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.


muso,

My heart is revived.

WHERE IS EUROPE HEADING???

FREE SPEECH IS A 'CRIME',
.....in at least one European parliament today.




November 29, 2008
Austrian pol who spoke negatively of Muhammad loses Parliamentary immunity
"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." -- Sahih Bukhari, volume 7, book 62, number 88
More Eurabian madness: an Austrian politician who made an accurate statement about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, as shown by the hadith above, is facing prosecution for it. When someone can get put on trial for telling the truth, the society has already tipped over into totalitarian thought control, and the totalitarian fascists in question are the European EU elites.
......The Immunity Committee of the National Assembly is expected to decide today on the handing over of the MPs Susanne Winter (FPÖ) and Peter Westenthaler (BZÖ) to the judiciary.
   The Immunity Committee of the National Council will decide Tuesday whether immunity will be lifted from two parliamentary members, the FPÖ representative Susanne Winter, and former BZÖ leader Peter Westenthaler. It is expected that the committee will decide to hand them over to the judiciary.
   […]
   Winter is to be sued over Islamophobic statements and because of citing hatred and vilifying religious teachings.....
......Susanne Winter, the infamous local FPÖ politician, now a member of parliament, declared that:

“In today’s system” the Prophet Muhammad would be considered a “child molester,” apparently referring to his marriage to a six-year-old child. She also said that it is time for Islam to be “thrown back where it came from, behind the Mediterranean.”

She was heavily attacked and denounced for these — true — words. Muslims in Austria were outraged, Muslims outside Austria resorted to the usual reaction: death threats. Her own political party deserted her.

Winter was quickly indicted on charges of incitement and degradation of religious symbols and religious agitation, an offense which carries a maximum sentence of two years.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/023709.php





SOME COMMENTS, MADE ON THE SAME JW PAGE.....

"The world has truly gone mad.
Degradation of religious symbols? Muhammad did that all by himself."


"You cannot 'defame' anyone by speaking the truth. Calling Muhammad a 'paedophile' is legitimate criticism after his treatment of Aisha.
The best arguments against Islam are to be found in the Quran and the Hadith."


"Parliamentary immunity as a matter of law and public policy is intended to protect lawmakers and allow them to speak openly and freely about matters important to public health and safety.
Removing immunity at the whim of the majority is no immunity at all. Lawmakers from all parts of the political spectrum are harmed when political speech is criminalized; especially speech that when spoken is permissible, and is made criminal AFTER the speech is made.
.....They irreparably damage their own political systems by making a mockery of parliamentary immunity."



+++++++


Q.
Why do so many ppl in the 'West' hate, the speaking of the TRUTH today?

A.
??


Q.
Why is TRUTH so 'offensive', to so many today??

A.
??

muslims have tried that in Aussie already and on this site.

Islam is the only religion that would ever think of trying to intimidate people into not fearing it.

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:01pm:

Islam is the only religion that would ever think of trying to intimidate people into not fearing it.

Atheism is second.  :)

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:10pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2008 at 8:01pm: Islam is the only religion that would ever think of trying to intimidate people into not fearing it. Atheism is second.  :)

No, I was wrong. The walrus is second after Islam.

Quote:

"O Oysters, come and walk with us!" The Walrus did beseech. "A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk, Along the briny beach: We cannot do with more than four, To give a hand to each." The eldest Oyster looked at him, But never a word he said: The eldest Oyster winked his eye, And shook his heavy head-- Meaning to say he did not choose To leave the oyster-bed. But four young Oysters hurried up, All eager for the treat: Their coats were brushed, their faces washed, Their shoes were clean and neat-- And this was odd, because, you know, They hadn't any feet. Four other Oysters followed them, And yet another four; And thick and fast they came at last, And more, and more, and more-- All hopping through the frothy waves, And scrambling to the shore.

I would defy such a ban. Watch out now, as the Rudd government is talking about a Bill of Rights. It is likely that people will put up a "Prevention of Defamation of Religion (er I mean Islam)' type right, which will mean the gagging of ANY criticism of Islam.

Islam is not just a religion, it is a system of government and a legal system. It should be, and deserves to be, criticised like any other government and legal system. Not granted immunity because it is a 'religion' to do all manner of things without them being discussed.

tallowood wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 9:21pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 30th, 2008 at 9:10pm: Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2008 at 8:01pm: Islam is the only religion that would ever think of trying to intimidate people into not fearing it. Atheism is second.  :) No, I was wrong. The walrus is second after Islam.

Achh. Ve haf vays to make you luv us. Ze beatings vill continue until you lern to like us.
Orders must be obeyed at all times.

( how do you do this in mock Arabic?)

Calanen wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 8:18pm:

I would defy such a ban. Watch out now, as the Rudd government is talking about a Bill of Rights. It is likely that people will put up a "Prevention of Defamation of Religion (er I mean Islam)' type right, which will mean the gagging of ANY criticism of Islam. Islam is not just a religion, it is a system of government and a legal system. It should be, and deserves to be, criticised like any other government and legal system. Not granted immunity because it is a 'religion' to do all manner of things without them being discussed.

yes I think any bill of rights should be there to protect freedoms, not to prohibit action- that's what we have laws for. speech about religion should come under the same laws used for public speech about any other matter

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 9:26pm:

Calanen wrote on Dec 4th, 2008 at 8:18pm: I would defy such a ban. Watch out now, as the Rudd government is talking about a Bill of Rights. It is likely that people will put up a "Prevention of Defamation of Religion (er I mean Islam)' type right, which will mean the gagging of ANY criticism of Islam. Islam is not just a religion, it is a system of government and a legal system. It should be, and deserves to be, criticised like any other government and legal system. Not granted immunity because it is a 'religion' to do all manner of things without them being discussed. yes I think any bill of rights should be there to protect freedoms, not to prohibit action- that's what we have laws for. speech about religion should come under the same laws used for public speech about any other matter

Blow me down wif a feather, milk monitor! Heartiest slap on the back for that, old fruit. I didn't think it was in you.
Cheers.

gaybriel - well the islamics don't think that at all.

they have forced a bill through the UN (I believe) to ban ALL criticism of religions, esp islam !!

What do you say about that ?
What do the muzzies in MV and other sites say about that ??

Do they want free speech, or world control ??

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 11:50pm:

gaybriel - well the islamics don't think that at all. they have forced a bill through the UN (I believe) to ban ALL criticism of religions, esp islam !! What do you say about that ? What do the muzzies in MV and other sites say about that ?? Do they want free speech, or world control ??

The party line seems to be that there can be 'No Defamation of Religion', which means, no criticism of Islam. Criticism of 'Zionism' (re Israel and Jews) is perhaps demanded, rather than prevented. The UN Committee on Human Rights is a farce now, it is just used to demonise Israel and shout down any criticism of sharia.

What individual muslims want will always vary. What Islam wants, and demands, is the whole world ruled under allah and Islam. What it commands all muslims to do, is to fight jihad to make this happen. Whether muslims answer the call or not, matters not so much that the call is there. Some will answer, and are answering. And we are in denial about it.

zionism is different to judaism

just like terrorism committed by muslims is different to islam

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 12:32am:

zionism is different to judaism just like terrorism committed by muslims is different to islam

I dont think you can equate zionism with terrorism. Zionism has become the code word for Islamic states to make all sorts of Jewish hate based attacks, re Zionist bankers, Zionist conspiracies etc. Instead of criticising jews (which they do anyway also) they insert the word Zionist.

Quote:

zionism is different to judaism just like terrorism committed by muslims is different to islam

I would agree with the above.  Who came first - the extremists or the zionists.  The average jewish person (from what I've read) doesn't want to be associated with zionism and in many cases are ashamed that the zionists are jewish.  The zionists have had control of the US for many years, and probably play a prominent role in most western governments.  The extremists call themselves freedom fighters and it is these two groups who have created such a hell on earth for those in their warring path.

mantra wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 6:34am:

Quote: zionism is different to judaism just like terrorism committed by muslims is different to islam [quote]I would agree with the above.  Who came first - the extremists or the zionists.  The average jewish person (from what I've read) doesn't want to be associated with zionism and in many cases are ashamed that the zionists are jewish.  The zionists have had control of the US for many years, and probably play a prominent role in most western governments.

What does Zionism mean to you?


Quote:

The extremists call themselves freedom fighters and it is these two groups who have created such a hell on earth for those in their warring path.

Depends upon your point of view. Most people have a short memory as to the Arab-Israeli conflict that doesnt bear much relationship to the truth.

Calanen wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 6:00am:

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 12:32am: zionism is different to judaism just like terrorism committed by muslims is different to islam I dont think you can equate zionism with terrorism. Zionism has become the code word for Islamic states to make all sorts of Jewish hate based attacks, re Zionist bankers, Zionist conspiracies etc. Instead of criticising jews (which they do anyway also) they insert the word Zionist.

I wasn't equating the two. I was pointing out the distinction between religion and religion based political ideology.

Soren wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 9:26pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 30th, 2008 at 9:21pm: tallowood wrote on Nov 30th, 2008 at 9:10pm: Soren wrote on Nov 30th, 2008 at 8:01pm: Islam is the only religion that would ever think of trying to intimidate people into not fearing it. Atheism is second.  :) No, I was wrong. The walrus is second after Islam. Achh. Ve haf vays to make you luv us. Ze beatings vill continue until you lern to like us. Orders must be obeyed at all times. ( how do you do this in mock Arabic?)

".....Ve haf vays."


LOL

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 12:32am:

zionism is different to judaism just like terrorism committed by muslims is different to islam

Correction....
Gaybriel doesn't like 'Zionists'.

Whether or not, Gaybriel likes 'Zionists' can't be definitively stated.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227427198/36#36

But I would suggest, what she has probably been told [by whom, i cannot imagine?], and believes, is that the Israeli 'Zionists' are persecuting innocent women and children in 'Palestine'?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229690857/137#137


Actually Zion, is just another word for Jerusalem [i believe].

Is it wrong for Jews to love Zion and their ancient homeland, Israel???

According to ISLAM it is....

News items,

Chief Muslim claims Jewish Temples never existed
March 15, 2007
"....The Jewish Temples never existed.......descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged, and that the Torah was falsified to claim Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs were Jewish when indeed they were prophets for Islam."


Temple Mount '100% Islamic'
June 01, 2008
"....Taysir Tamimi, chief Palestinian Justice and one of the most influential Muslim leaders in Israel, argued the Jewish Temples never existed,...."

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227051349/0#0




+++++++


I know that it is of no consequence to Gaybriel, to ISLAMISTS, and to atheists,
....but who exactly is the 'head honcho' of the, 'Zionists'?

Well, if you believe in him, it is God.
.....the God of Israel.




Psalms 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.



And those who stand against Israel, stand against the God of Israel.
....aka Jesus Christ, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.





'Israel - in perspective'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226369723/0#0

who said I didn't like zionists?

any opinion I hold of zionists is not based upon the current situation in palestine.

thanks anyway

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 8:01pm:

Islam is the only religion that would ever think of trying to intimidate people into not fearing it.

Islam has nuffin to do wiv nuffin (No. 7214)


Islam, the religion of peace, tolerance and compassion - December 2, 2008 by Organisation of The Islamic Conference - OIC Website


With the multiplicity of terrorist attacks perpetrated recently by deviant and fanatic individuals, the General Secretariat of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) has noticed a tendency of a section of the media, to interpose the word “Islam” in reporting these incidences.
Islam, the religion of peace, tolerance and compassion, that sanctifies the human soul, and whose universal message is one of mutual peaceful coexistence among all the peoples of the world, regardless of their ethnicities, race, religions or languages, and which calls for kind reasoning and dialogue with all their fellow human beings, abhors and despises all such criminal acts and had enacted the utmost severe punishment for their perpetrators.

It is frustrating to see some circles, still, maliciously trying to establish conceptual link between such evil and wicked practices and Islam, the religion that condemns, scorns and outlaws them.

It is on the premise of this irrefutable fact that we, in the OIC, call upon all well-intentioned peoples of the world, not to give to these criminals any right to present Islam, a right that Islam itself denies them. Those who refer to the perpetrators, as acting on behalf of Islam, help them by offering them justification, anchor and premise that they don’t have or deserve. On the other hand, the generalization of the guilt of a few aberrant misguided individuals, to engulf the adherents of a religion of 1.5 billion followers is an outrageous judgment and amounts to an illegal collective punishment on a global scale. Moreover, any attempt to implicate all Muslims in such a wicked and wanton acts goes contrary to the well established principles of international law.

It is therefore hoped that media will avoid resorting to any reference to Islam when narrating such events in order not to disseminate erroneous information that might jeopardize the basic human rights of Muslims, the world over.

Churchill had the answer a 100 years before:


It is, thank heaven, difficult if not impossible for the modern European to fully appreciate the force which fanaticism exercises among an ignorant, warlike and Oriental population. Several generations have elapsed since the nations of the West have drawn the sword in religious controversy, and the evil memories of the gloomy past have soon faded in the strong, clear light of Rationalism and human sympathy. Indeed it is evident that Christianity, however degraded and distorted by cruelty and intolerance, must always exert a modifying influence on men's passions, and protect them from the more violent forms of fanatical fever, as we are protected from smallpox by vaccination. But the Mahommedan religion increases, instead of lessening, the fury of intolerance. It was originally propagated by the sword, and ever since, its votaries have been subject, above the people of all other creeds, to this form of madness. In a moment the fruits of patient toil, the prospects of material prosperity, the fear of death itself, are flung aside. The more emotional Pathans are powerless to resist. All rational considerations are forgotten. Seizing their weapons, they become Ghazis--as dangerous and as sensible as mad dogs: fit only to be treated as such. While the more generous spirits among the tribesmen become convulsed in an ecstasy of religious bloodthirstiness, poorer and more material souls derive additional impulses from the influence of others, the hopes of plunder and the joy of fighting. Thus whole nations are roused to arms. Thus the Turks repel their enemies, the Arabs of the Soudan break the British squares, and the rising on the Indian frontier spreads far and wide. In each case civilisation is confronted with militant Mahommedanism. The forces of progress clash with those of reaction. The religion of blood and war is face to face with that of peace. Luckily the religion of peace is usually the better armed.


The Story of the Malakand Field Force by Winston Churchill, Longmans Colonial Library, 1897, p.40.

The current truth is the same as the truth a hundred years ago. Truth is funny like that.



http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell?ob=1

You mean Churchill that guy who tried to pass laws for the "Eradication of the disease of feeble mindedness"?? The one who wanted to sterilise anyone who didn't live up to his lofty ideals of what a prospering Brit should be?

Yeh, great guy to get your inspiration from soren.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 9^th, 2009 at 11:40pm:

You mean Churchill that guy who tried to pass laws for the "Eradication of the disease of feeble mindedness"?? The one who wanted to sterilise anyone who didn't live up to his lofty ideals of what a prospering Brit should be? Yeh, great guy to get your inspiration from soren.

Yeah, him. He would know what to do with the assorted bearded pinheads and jihadi 'palestinians' hiding in the US army. And their boosters on forums like this - "Eradication of the disease of feeble mindedness" indeed. Starting with a shave and proper clothes. Then new passport photos. Temporary travel documents. Tickets. Big, heavy boots for the farwell party.

A few more not so famous quotes from Mr. Churchill:

I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.
Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937

I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.
Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.
Commenting on Gandhi's meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

(India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.
In a letter to his mother, 1896

I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.
Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

(We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.
Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable.
Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31

The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate... I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.
Churchill to Asquith, 1910

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."
From his Great Contemporaries, 1937

You are callous people who want to wreck Europe - you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.
Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944

So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?
Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944

This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."
Writing on 'Zionism versus Bolshevism' in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920

Getting 9 or 10 out of 12 right - not bad.

And of course he ultimately redeemed himself admirably, in spades.  Can't say the same for any Muslim leader of the 20th century. Or the 19th. Or the 18th. And so on.

I bet this is one of your favourites isn't it??

"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes."

Soren wrote on Nov 9^th, 2009 at 11:01pm:

The current truth is the same as the truth a hundred years ago. Truth is funny like that. http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell?ob=1

The truth frequently seems unreasonable.
The truth frequently is depressing.
The truth sometimes seems to be evil.
But it has the eternal advantage.
It is the truth and what is built thereon neither brings nor yields confusion.
...Henry Ford





+++++++




Jesus said, that if we were a truly follower of him, the world would hate us.

???

Yet today, much of the world professes, to revere, and love Jesus, OR at least his teachings, and that 'goodness' in man which he promoted.

Q.
Then, why would Jesus say that his followers would be hated?

A.
Because in their hearts, the followers of Jesus have 'turned', away from the lies of this world.

They seek after righteousness, and TRUTH, and right judgement,
.....'therefore the world hateth you.'

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
....10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jeremiah 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Exodus 23:1
Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
2  Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
3  Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.
4  If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
5  If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
6  Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of thy poor in his cause.
7  Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
8  And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.
9  Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: