"The Zionist movement, which emerged in Eurpose in the last two decades of the nineteenth century, aimed at the national revival of the Jewish people in its ancestral home after nearly two thousand years of exile. The term "zionism" was coined in 1885 by the Viennese Jewish writer Nathan Birnbaum, Zion being one of the biblical names for Jerusalem. Zionism was in essence an answer to the Jewish problem that derived from two basic facts: the Jews were dispersed in various countries around the world, and in each country they consistuted a minority. The Zionist solution was to end the anomalous existence and dependence on others, to return to Zion, and to attain majority status there  and, ultimately, political independence and statehood.

Ever since the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C. and the exile to Babylon, the Jews yearned to return to Zion. This yearning was reflected in Jewish prayers, and it manifested itself in a number of messianic movements. Modern Zionism, by contrast, was a secular movement, with a political orientation towards Palestine. Modern Zionism was a phenomenon of the late nineteenth-century Europe. It had its roots in the failure of Jewish efforts to become assimilated in Western society, in the intensification of anti-semitism in Europe, and in the parallel and not unrelated upsurge of nationalism. If nationalism posed a problem to the Jews by identifying them as an alien and unwanted minority, it also suggested a solution: self-determination for the Jews in a state of their own in which they would constitute a majority...

Theodore Herzl...concluded that assimilation and emancipation could not work, because the Jews were a nation...[his] book provided a detailed blue print for a Jewish state but left open the question whether the site for the proposed state should be Palestine, on account of its historic associations, or some vacant land in Argentina...[a] fact finding mission resulted in a cable from Palestine in which two rabbis wrote "The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man."

This cable encapsulated the problem with which the Zionist movement had to grapple from the beginning: an Arab population alread lived on the land on which the Jews had set their heart. The received view is that the Zionist movement, with the exception of a few marginal groups, tended to ignore the Arabs who lived in Palestine and constituted what came to be called the Arab question. Some critics add that it was this ignorance of the Arab population by the Zionists that prevented the possibility of an understanding between the two national movements that were to claim Palestine as their homeland...[Herzl] viewed the natives as primitive and backward...he did not consider them a society with collective political rights over the land in which they formed the over-whelming majority.

...

Herzl's basic aim remained unchanged: obtaining the support of the great powers for turning Palestine into a political centre for the Jewish people.
...

In its formative phase, under the direction of Herzl, the Zionist movement thus displayed two features that were to be of fundamental and eduring importance in its subsequent history: the nonrecognition of a Palestinian national entity, and the quest for an alliance with a great power external to the Middle East."

The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim

In the 700's,
ISLAMIC 'missionaries' invaded the countries of the present day M.E., North Africa, and southern Europe.




All present day M.E. lands [which by the way, were previously under Christian influence] were subsumed into an ISLAMIC empire.

Dictionary,
subsume = = include or absorb in something else.

Which apparently, was OK to do.




Turkey [which held the remaining vestiges of the older ISLAMIC empire] enters WW1.

After being on the losing side of that war, Turkey's territories, which were NOT a part of Turkey proper, were divided among the victors of WW1.

Some time later, a very small part of those [previous] Turkish territories was allocated,
.....for a Jewish homeland,
.....on what was an ancient Jewish homeland.

Which apparently is very, very wrong to do.






SO,

When the armies of ISLAM subsumed lands, which they invaded with swords, into their growing and vast empire,
....THAT is OK.


BUT,
When a very small part of those lands [by international agreement, and after war] are allocated to a people who are nationless, and are a people who originally lived in those lands,
....THAT is NOT OK.






http://www.think-israel.org/jul06pix/middleeast.gif
Jews must NEVER be permitted to live in their ancestral homeland.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226369723/0#0

If these Jews put so much faith in God, why do they have to forcefully seize land? Why do they have to be dependant on military handouts? I don't get it.

Without Israel we (the whole planet) would be much better off.

It would be interesting if the Middle East did something similar to the European Union. We would get some interesting New Years fireworks for sure with that one.

It's a pretty interesting situation. We have the Russians selling weapons to Iran and Venezuela, and the Russian Navy is going to be conducting joint exercises with the navy of Venezuela. Not to mention the Russian president visiting Cuba, Brazil and Venezuela recently.

Quote:

In its formative phase, under the direction of Herzl, the Zionist movement thus displayed two features that were to be of fundamental and eduring importance in its subsequent history: the nonrecognition of a Palestinian national entity, and the quest for an alliance with a great power external to the Middle East."

Well they'd be right to not recognise the Palestinian national entity, because there was no such thing. When was there a country of Palestine? It was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, and then the Brits got it as the British Mandate of Palestine, and then it was divided up into the Arab and Jewish states. Its only in relatively recent history that Palestinian nationalism has become important.

Yeah Calanen, whilst that may be true, wasn't Australia a British colony also, and New Zealand, India, plenty of places. Not to mention French, Dutch, Spanish colonies and so on and so forth.

If they weren't given a chance for independence/federation, does not mean there were never strong nationalistic tendencies within the 'country', maybe they just never had the firepower/political power to do anything.

I doubt Palestinian nationalism is a recent thing. That part of the world has been highly desired by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike for a very long time.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 12:25pm:

Yeah Calanen, whilst that may be true, wasn't Australia a British colony also, and New Zealand, India, plenty of places. Not to mention French, Dutch, Spanish colonies and so on and so forth.

I'm not sure what the significance of this is. Palestine was never a colony, it was ruled by all sorts of different people, and the people that lived there considered themselves to be Arabs, not Palestinians. After Israel won the 1948 war, Jordan and Egypt occupied the rest of the Arab state that was not part of Israel.


Quote:

If they weren't given a chance for independence/federation, does not mean there were never strong nationalistic tendencies within the 'country', maybe they just never had the firepower/political power to do anything.

Nobody even said the word Palestinian, at all until about 1920. So its wrong to say the ebil zionists crushed Palestinian nationhood in 1850, when there was no such thing as a Palestinian then, except in the trendiest of lefty revisionist history.


Quote:

I doubt Palestinian nationalism is a recent thing. That part of the world has been highly desired by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike for a very long time.

Different people fought over it, but that doesnt mean there was a separate country called Palestine.

You know what I mean though.

Eg, there are Israeli Arabs, Lebanese Arabs, Iraqi Arabs etc etc etc. It's unfair displacement of people, no matter how you look at it, personal feelings towards the group(s) aside. Palestine doesn't have to be a colony, I was drawing comparisons between other places which have been ruled/governed by far removed places of power.

That part of the world has long been desired by the 3 big religions. It just so happens that the Muslims were the ones who stuck it out there the most.

I have no sympathy for Zionist Jews. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I'd lend support to the PLO's cause.

Well, where do the jews come from, then? If they are not from where Israel is now - then where from?

The Israeli Jews got kicked out a long time ago. They can't just come back and say it's theirs again. By their very justification, the Muslims can do the same claim and kick the Jews out.

What would you do if the Aborigines got support from, say China and Russia and said, RIGHT EVERYONE OUT THIS IS OUR COUNTRY WE RECLAIM IT.

You wouldn't be too happy. And that is only after 200 odd years, so much more recent than what went on over there.

Besides, I'm sure the British PM at the time of the creation of Israel wanted to create an Ulster (Northern Ireland type situation) in the middle east, which is basically what he said.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 7:10pm:

The Israeli Jews got kicked out a long time ago. They can't just come back and say it's theirs again. By their very justification, the Muslims can do the same claim and kick the Jews out

So any muslims that come here, its quite acceptable for me to go to the Western suburbs of Sydney and kill them?  That is what happened in the British Mandate of Palestine. The majority of Jews were legal immigrants that bought land the Arabs did not want, from Arabs, and then when were attacked, slaughtered by their welcoming Arabic neighbours. A small number of jews had always remained in the area that was the British Mandate of Palestine. More came as migrants, which was Britains perview to decide as the ruling power. The same way, migrants came to Britian, Australia, and other places around the world.

The UN, and the UK, in the middle of it all - adopted Resolution 181 to keep the warring parties apart, and gave both the Arabs and the Jews their own state. The Arabs decided that anything so sensible surely wouldnt do - they would instead kill all the Jews, and take everything instead, notwithstanding what the UN had decided.

The only problem for them was, they started a war and they lost. And they have been crying about the fact that they started a war, which they lost, in 1948, and then again in 1967 and in 1973 ever since then. It is like attacking a small guy in a bar who cleans your clock, then asking random passersby to feel sorry for you for the next 50 years. How about you didnt pick the fight with the little guy? Maybe you would not be feeling sorry for yourself now. If the Arabs had won their wars, would anyone be saying 'Its unfair give Israel back to the Jews?'


Quote:

What would you do if the Aborigines got support from, say China and Russia and said, RIGHT EVERYONE OUT THIS IS OUR COUNTRY WE RECLAIM IT.

This is not remotely comparable. Maybe if I decided to start massacring ethnic chinese in Sydney, I could expect that China would step in. Good luck though. It is a ridiculous example.


Quote:

You wouldn't be too happy. And that is only after 200 odd years, so much more recent than what went on over there.

Not really. What went on over there was decided in 1948.

[edit]Besides, I'm sure the British PM at the time of the creation of Israel wanted to create an Ulster (Northern Ireland type situation) in the middle east, which is basically what he said.[/edit]

Who cares what he wanted to do. Im not going to say that the Arabs had the legal right to slaughter all Jewish immigrants to Palestine because they were ebil Jews. Or by your rationale, Australians have the right to slaughter all Islamic immigrants, by the same standard.

Quote:

So any muslims that come here, its quite acceptable for me to go to the Western suburbs of Sydney and kill them?  That is what happened in the British Mandate of Palestine. The majority of Jews were legal immigrants that bought land the Arabs did not want, from Arabs, and then when were attacked, slaughtered by their welcoming Arabic neighbours. A small number of jews had always remained in the area that was the British Mandate of Palestine. More came as migrants, which was Britains perview to decide as the ruling power. The same way, migrants came to Britian, Australia, and other places around the world.

If any Muslims come here and start trying to set up an Islamic state, then yes it is acceptable to kill them. Just like if any Jews come here and start trying to set up a Jewish state, acceptable to kill them. Migration is not the same as setting up a new social/legal system.


Quote:

The UN, and the UK, in the middle of it all - adopted Resolution 181 to keep the warring parties apart, and gave both the Arabs and the Jews their own state. The Arabs decided that anything so sensible surely wouldnt do - they would instead kill all the Jews, and take everything instead, notwithstanding what the UN had decided. The only problem for them was, they started a war and they lost. And they have been crying about the fact that they started a war, which they lost, in 1948, and then again in 1967 and in 1973 ever since then. It is like attacking a small guy in a bar who cleans your clock, then asking random passersby to feel sorry for you for the next 50 years. How about you didnt pick the fight with the little guy? Maybe you would not be feeling sorry for yourself now. If the Arabs had won their wars, would anyone be saying 'Its unfair give Israel back to the Jews?'

I noticed you failed to mention the part where Israel violates UN rulings.


Quote:

This is not remotely comparable. Maybe if I decided to start massacring ethnic chinese in Sydney, I could expect that China would step in. Good luck though. It is a ridiculous example.

It's entirely comparable. The British and the UN, not really connected to the Jews, set up this whole Israel fiasco. Just like how China and Russia are not connected to the Australian Aborigines.


Quote:

Not really. What went on over there was decided in 1948.

Yes, after how many hundreds of years of non-Jewish authority in the middle east?


Quote:

Who cares what he wanted to do. Im not going to say that the Arabs had the legal right to slaughter all Jewish immigrants to Palestine because they were ebil Jews. Or by your rationale, Australians have the right to slaughter all Islamic immigrants, by the same standard.

Who cares what he wanted to do? How about the people who have to now live with traditional enemies? They might. Ulster was known as a place of tension and conflict, and uneasiness. Didn't the Irish leave their lights on during night time air raid blackouts in WW2 so as to help guide the Germans towards Britain? So, by looking at it in context, I would assume that he wanted to create a place of mayhem in the middle east.

It's not because they are Jews. I don't care about the fact they are Jews. The point is, they set up a country where they shouldn't have. It is not an immigration issue. It's a political/revolutionary issue.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 7:10pm:

The Israeli Jews got kicked out a long time ago. They can't just come back and say it's theirs again. By their very justification, the Muslims can do the same claim and kick the Jews out.

So Jews did it by Arabs claim so Arabs have only themselves to blame.

The Israeli Jews could come back and say it's theirs again and they did and I say good on them.

The Israeli Arabs prefer to live in Israel rather then with their mad relatives in Arab territories.




Quote:

What would you do if the Aborigines got support from, say China and Russia and said, RIGHT EVERYONE OUT THIS IS OUR COUNTRY WE RECLAIM IT.

We would get support from USA and Britain and kick their asses. Besides geopolitically it is not in Russian interests to have China strong so they would likely to either stay neutral or help us to kick Chinese asses as well.

tallowood wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 7:58pm:

easel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 7:10pm: The Israeli Jews got kicked out a long time ago. They can't just come back and say it's theirs again. By their very justification, the Muslims can do the same claim and kick the Jews out. So Jews did it by Arabs claim so Arabs have only themselves to blame. The Israeli Jews could come back and say it's theirs again and they did and I say good on them. The Israeli Arabs prefer to live in Israel rather then with their mad relatives in Arab territories.

just so.



Quote:

What would you do if the Aborigines got support from, say China and Russia and said, RIGHT EVERYONE OUT THIS IS OUR COUNTRY WE RECLAIM IT.

We would explain to them what a goddam stupid notion they had gotten into their heads.
Honestly, where do you get orf?? What a stupid, stupid analogy!

When was the last time china or Russia were on the side of the angels by choice?

Of course they wouldn't help the Aborigines, it was just an example of overwhelming firepower used to force a regime change. Like what happened with Israel.

Britain would not help us. America would, only because of Pine Gap. Even then, they'd try and work their way out of it.

By the way, when was the last Jewish prophet? I think God has slightly abandoned the Jews.

Haven't you noticed just how much trouble the world is in, and how most of the conflict is centred around the middle east? If Israel didn't exist in the middle east as a Jewish state, and the west didn't support them militarily, we would live in a much safer environment.

Quote:

So any muslims that come here, its quite acceptable for me to go to the Western suburbs of Sydney and kill them?  That is what happened in the British Mandate of Palestine. The majority of Jews were legal immigrants that bought land the Arabs did not want, from Arabs, and then when were attacked, slaughtered by their welcoming Arabic neighbours. A small number of jews had always remained in the area that was the British Mandate of Palestine. More came as migrants, which was Britains perview to decide as the ruling power. The same way, migrants came to Britian, Australia, and other places around the world.

Oh yeah, Tony Abbott is fair game too, for bringing Catholicism in to politics. Same guy had pre-marital sex and goes off on the whole Catholic tangent.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 9:25pm:

.... Haven't you noticed just how much trouble the world is in, and how most of the conflict is centred around the middle east? If Israel didn't exist in the middle east as a Jewish state, and the west didn't support them militarily, we would live in a much safer environment.

I don't think that if Israel didn't exist suicide bombers would stop killing Jews, Christians, Buddists, Hindus, Atheists, Pagans, Muslims, etc.. because they still would have the book of false prophesies to wank on proverbial virgins.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 9:25pm:

Of course they wouldn't help the Aborigines, it was just an example of overwhelming firepower used to force a regime change. Like what happened with Israel.

What nonsense. There was no 'regime change', there was no Palestinian regime. BMP was under British rule, and they left voluntarily. The only overwhelming firepower was something like 8 Arabic countries that attacked the poorly armed and trained citizens army of holocaust survivors in Israel, who kicked the Arab's collective asses. There were no US troops or UK troops helping them. They did it by themselves.


Quote:

Britain would not help us. America would, only because of Pine Gap. Even then, they'd try and work their way out of it

.

I'm not even remotely worried by external enemies. The only group that could invade Australia is China, and even then it would have to go through all the other psychos in Asia first to get to us. Its not a realistic outcome. We neither need the US nor anyone to defend us.


Quote:

By the way, when was the last Jewish prophet? I think God has slightly abandoned the Jews.

If you believe in God. He kind of went the way of the tooth fairy and santa for me once I was about 12.


Quote:

Haven't you noticed just how much trouble the world is in, and how most of the conflict is centred around the middle east? If Israel didn't exist in the middle east as a Jewish state, and the west didn't support them militarily, we would live in a much safer environment.

No we wouldnt. Islam has been attacking Europe since shortly after the time of Mohammed. And there was no Israel then.

The Barbary Pirates were attacking the USA in the 1780s. Thomas Jefferson met with their diplomats and asked them, why is it that you attack the USA, when we are a new country that have done nothing to you? Here is what Jefferson told Congress he said:


Quote:

As Jefferson later reported to the State Department and Congress, "The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners".

Sound familiar? No US foreign policy to blame. No Israel to blame. Just the Koran, saying the same stuff then that it still says today. Even back then, there were 'misunderstanders of the true message of the Religion of Peace.'

Initially as dhimmis, Congress decided to pay protection money to the Barbary Pirates. Eventually, they sent in the US Marine Corps to the capital Tripoli, and wiped them out. That was the end of the Barbary Pirates.  Thats where you get the words of the Marine Fight song 'to the shores of Tripoli.'

[Oops, should have posted my source:

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2007/01/keith-ellison-attempts-to-rewrite.html ]

Calanen's post above confirmed

Quote:

What nonsense. There was no 'regime change', there was no Palestinian regime. BMP was under British rule, and they left voluntarily. The only overwhelming firepower was something like 8 Arabic countries that attacked the poorly armed and trained citizens army of holocaust survivors in Israel, who kicked the Arab's collective asses. There were no US troops or UK troops helping them. They did it by themselves.

There was a regime change. Before the Zionists had control of the area, someone else did.


Quote:

I'm not even remotely worried by external enemies. The only group that could invade Australia is China, and even then it would have to go through all the other psychos in Asia first to get to us. Its not a realistic outcome. We neither need the US nor anyone to defend us.

I am slightly concerned. But, that has nothing to do with much. The point I was trying to get across was in regards to forced political power restructuring that goes against the wishes of the vast majority.


Quote:

If you believe in God. He kind of went the way of the tooth fairy and santa for me once I was about 12.

Yes, if you believe in God. Which the Jews do, seeing as they have a religious country set up with religious laws, which might have something to do with why they wanted to return to that part of the world anyway.


Quote:

No we wouldnt. Islam has been attacking Europe since shortly after the time of Mohammed. And there was no Israel then. The Barbary Pirates were attacking the USA in the 1780s. Thomas Jefferson met with their diplomats and asked them, why is it that you attack the USA, when we are a new country that have done nothing to you? Here is what Jefferson told Congress he said:

I didn't say the Muslims would not be attacking us, I said the world would be much safer. Especially if we didn't go around invading majority Muslim countries using false intelligence, and providing Israel with weaponry and allowing them to break international law, like what the USA does.

I believe you when you post, you are coherent and make sense. You don't have to source. If I don't believe you I'll go check.

Zionism is mostly secular movement that's why they are so much better then islamism. But even assuming that muslims are right about Allah willing everything we come to inevitable conclusion that Allah abandoned muslims and supported jews the way they kick muslim bottoms despite of vast numerical superiority of muslims.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 9:25pm:

Haven't you noticed just how much trouble the world is in, and how most of the conflict is centred around the middle east? If Israel didn't exist in the middle east as a Jewish state, and the west didn't support them militarily, we would live in a much safer environment.

It must be the bloody-minded viking oppressing whitey in me but I do support the jews. If they can't have that sliver of turf, then nobody has a right to any real estate. Not even the aborigines, blow-ins they are from whenever.

The Muslims have major ideological and religious problem with the very existence of the jews. Quiet-lifers like you will rather feed the jews to them than pull them up and say to them that enough is enough, back off or smack off.

So in that sense yes, we would have a quieter life if we gave in to the re-primitivisers of the world. But for this mortal that's just ain't right and the quiet life option looks just cowardly.

I am with the jews. (Can I say that?)

I used to support the Jewish state of Israel.

I used to be indifferent but now I support Israel against enemies of humanity.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 10:47pm:

I used to support the Jewish state of Israel.

And what happened?  They stood up for themselves?

The palestinians are stupid on many accounts but to my mind the worst of their stupidity is not to recognise the bonanza they have with the jews in the neighbourhood, keen to help with setting up a functioning and prosperous and independent state  - the only ultimate interest the jews have in the palestinians - yet these stupid idiots wouldd rather shoot each other for another generation or 10 than grasp what a godsent it is for them to have the jews as their 'oppressors'. They could be occupied by the Belgians or the Russians or Sudanese, god help them.

Any other semi-sane people would grasp that much. What revents the palestinians, apaart from decades long psychosis and Muslim manipulation? Take a guess. Come on, take a wild guess, Mr Used-to-be-with-israel-but-something-happened.

Have you ever taken the next step in your thought experiment about abandoning Israel? I invite you to go to Jerusalem and don a yarmulke on the day Israel is abolished. i

How do we know Israel isn't an enemy of humanity?

Soren wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 11:24pm:

easel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 10:47pm: I used to support the Jewish state of Israel. And what happened?  They stood up for themselves? The palestinians are stupid on many accounts but to my mind the worst of their stupidity is not to recognise the bonanza they have with the jews in the neighbourhood, keen to help with setting up a functioning and prosperous and independent state  - the only ultimate interest the jews have in the palestinians - yet these stupid idiots wouldd rather shoot each other for another generation or 10 than grasp what a godsent it is for them to have the jews as their 'oppressors'. They could be occupied by the Belgians or the Russians or Sudanese, god help them. Any other semi-sane people would grasp that much. What revents the palestinians, apaart from decades long psychosis and Muslim manipulation? Take a guess. Come on, take a wild guess, Mr Used-to-be-with-israel-but-something-happened. Have you ever taken the next step in your thought experiment about abandoning Israel? I invite you to go to Jerusalem and don a yarmulke on the day Israel is abolished.

I don't know if it's true, but I have heard from more than one Lebanese Christian (from Lebanon), who don't know each other, without being prompted, that in Palestine there are worship centres where  Christians, Jews and Muslims all pray together. Never seen that on the news. Never been there either, so it might be lies.

Not to mention, these Christians, who would be slightly persecuted by Muslims, have an immense dislike for Israel. This was before the most recent war between Israel and Lebanon.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 11:24pm:

How do we know Israel isn't an enemy of humanity?

How do we know Syria, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, Bahrain, Omar, Venezuela, New Zealand (!), Denmark (!!!), Malta, Lichtenstein aren't?

Or you?

Or me?

We truly don't do we? That's the hard part. I suppose when you can confirm evil you should oppose it, but until it is confirmed to you, you can't believe the spin put out these days. There's too much of it. I'm still not convinced Iran and Venezuela are as bad as we are told, no I don't think they're run by angels either.

I think if they never made suggestions about selling oil for Euro's, they'd not be in the situation they are now though. Poor US dollar, artificially kept stable by the fact oil has to (or at least used to) be traded with it.

If they didn't do that and were left alone, makes you wonder why their 'evil actions' were so loudly condemned once they did. Maybe anti-humanist dollar hungry psychos only care about their bank balances and nothing else, and when they saw it might be in trouble, decided to appeal to the average person and their still intact humanity.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 11:24pm:

How do we know Israel isn't an enemy of humanity?

"the nemy of my enemy is my friend"

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 11:29pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 11:24pm: easel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 10:47pm: I used to support the Jewish state of Israel. And what happened?  They stood up for themselves? The palestinians are stupid on many accounts but to my mind the worst of their stupidity is not to recognise the bonanza they have with the jews in the neighbourhood, keen to help with setting up a functioning and prosperous and independent state  - the only ultimate interest the jews have in the palestinians - yet these stupid idiots wouldd rather shoot each other for another generation or 10 than grasp what a godsent it is for them to have the jews as their 'oppressors'. They could be occupied by the Belgians or the Russians or Sudanese, god help them. Any other semi-sane people would grasp that much. What revents the palestinians, apaart from decades long psychosis and Muslim manipulation? Take a guess. Come on, take a wild guess, Mr Used-to-be-with-israel-but-something-happened. Have you ever taken the next step in your thought experiment about abandoning Israel? I invite you to go to Jerusalem and don a yarmulke on the day Israel is abolished. I don't know if it's true, but I have heard from more than one Lebanese Christian (from Lebanon), who don't know each other, without being prompted, that in Palestine there are worship centres where  Christians, Jews and Muslims all pray together. Never seen that on the news. Never been there either, so it might be lies. Not to mention, these Christians, who would be slightly persecuted by Muslims, have an immense dislike for Israel. This was before the most recent war between Israel and Lebanon.

What are you saying?


Yes, people of the jewsih persuasion can get up your nose, my nose, everyone's noses. So what? Have you never met any other kind of pain in the arse? Or are all the jews pains in the arse? Just by being jews? have they cornered one more market, that of being pains in the arse?
Hey, here's my anecdotal evidence - i have met jews and christians who are very much for israel as a country and as an idea. I have even met bastards who like jews. These buggers reckon that the jews have put enough on the table for humanity to make a claim on a sliver of ancestral land.

I have no issue with Jews, just the Jewish state of Israel. I have had many deep, intellectual conversations with a Jewish-law observing ex-Rabbi.

He doesn't like the state of Israel either.

So what?

Quote:

Yes, people of the jewsih persuasion can get up your nose, my nose, everyone's noses. So what? Have you never met any other kind of pain in the arse? Or are all the jews pains in the arse? Just by being jews? have they cornered one more market, that of being pains in the arse? Hey, here's my anecdotal evidence - i have met jews and christians who are very much for israel as a country and as an idea. I have even met bastards who like jews. These buggers reckon that the jews have put enough on the table for humanity to make a claim on a sliver of ancestral land.

I was trying to say it's not Jews I have a problem with.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 11:24pm:

How do we know Israel isn't an enemy of humanity?

It might be more useful to look at why you think it is.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 11:51pm:

I have no issue with Jews, just the Jewish state of Israel. I have had many deep, intellectual conversations with a Jewish-law observing ex-Rabbi. He doesn't like the state of Israel either.

I know some Australians who are loosers and don't like Australia.

easel wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 12:55am:

... I was trying to say it's not Jews I have a problem with.

I think it is clear that you have problems.

Calanen wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 5:28am:

easel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 11:24pm: How do we know Israel isn't an enemy of humanity? It might be more useful to look at why you think it is.

Because of where it gets its' funding and support.

easel wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 1:30pm:

Calanen wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 5:28am: easel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 11:24pm: How do we know Israel isn't an enemy of humanity? It might be more useful to look at why you think it is. Because of where it gets its' funding and support.

What you are hinting at but can't spell out because you sense its insanity is that Israel is (may be) the enemy of humanity because it gets funding and support from the US.

You are suffering from Bush derangement syndrome or some such delusion. This is fruity, nutty nonsense.

Should the US, the foremost liberal democracy, support the only liberal democracy in the Middle east or all the other countries in the region, thugocracies one and all?

What kind of nodding, winking, furtive bullshit is this?

Where islamist terrorists get their funding from "that is the question" that should be asked by reality minded people.

tallowood wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 8:35pm:

Where islamist terrorists get their funding from "that is the question" that should be asked by reality minded people.

Well, for a start, we all know Al Qaeda received weapons, training and support from the CIA.

Soren wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 7:52pm:

easel wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 1:30pm: Calanen wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 5:28am: easel wrote on Dec 5th, 2008 at 11:24pm: How do we know Israel isn't an enemy of humanity? It might be more useful to look at why you think it is. Because of where it gets its' funding and support. What you are hinting at but can't spell out because you sense its insanity is that Israel is (may be) the enemy of humanity because it gets funding and support from the US. You are suffering from Bush derangement syndrome or some such delusion. This is fruity, nutty nonsense. Should the US, the foremost liberal democracy, support the only liberal democracy in the Middle east or all the other countries in the region, thugocracies one and all? What kind of nodding, winking, furtive bullshit is this?

The middle easterners are pretty crazy, in the middle east, excluding international terrorist groups. The USA government is pretty crazy, to a more brutal extent, the world over. The things the Israeli government, as well as the US government do are inhumane, there is no doubt about that.

Israel isn't that much of a great country, sure it is beautiful to look at and modern, but if you aren't Jewish you are going to get the short end of the stick over there. Government sanctioned discrimination, in 2008. Yes I know, they all do it over there, doesn't mean a country that does should receive weapons and support for essentially nothing from world super powers.

I'm not really that dirty on Bush. He doesn't really plan things out, he just gives them the ok to go ahead.

easel wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 9:49pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 6th, 2008 at 8:35pm: Where islamist terrorists get their funding from "that is the question" that should be asked by reality minded people. Well, for a start, we all know Al Qaeda received weapons, training and support from the CIA.

Yes, Central Islamic Authority is Koran. That's why Zionists are so cool kicking that authority's ass.

easel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 11:29pm:

I don't know if it's true, but I have heard from more than one Lebanese Christian (from Lebanon), who don't know each other, without being prompted, that in Palestine there are worship centres where  Christians, Jews and Muslims all pray together. Never seen that on the news. Never been there either, so it might be lies. Not to mention, these Christians, who would be slightly persecuted by Muslims, have an immense dislike for Israel. This was before the most recent war between Israel and Lebanon.

easel,

Your supposition above, sounds to me like yet more disinformation, being practised against those 'evil Zionists'.

But let me ask you,
If the Christians in Lebanon were told [by muslims, and by the mainstream media] that Israelis had bombed, and destroyed Christian villages, and if the Lebanese Christians could verify that fact,
....but the actual circumstances [of those facts] were not revealed to the Lebanese Christian community,
....would that perhaps explain the claimed Lebanese Christian 'immense dislike' for Israelis???


article...

August 1, 2006
Hezbollah is Using Christian Villages to Shield its Military Operations in Violation of International Law
....."Hezbollah is repeating the same pattern.....hiding among civilian populations and launching attacks behind human shields."
......A Christian from the village of Ain Ebel, who is nameless because he fears retribution by Hezbollah, discovered Hezbollah guerillas were setting up a launcher to fire Katyusha rockets from the rooftop of his home. Ignoring his pleas to stop, they fired the missiles. He immediately gathered his family and fled home, which indeed was bombed and destroyed 15 minutes later by an Israeli air strike.
http://www.dhimmi.com/ConflictinLebanon.htm


During the conflict in 2006, Hezbollah placed its rockets [being fired at Israel] among its [own] perceived enemies in southern Lebanon - unarmed Christian communities.

Thereby, Hezbollah is able to weaken and destroy Christian communities within Lebanon, using the Israelis as Hezbollah proxies.

It was clever, and it was evil.

Yet these type of facts are not revealed, in the mainstream media, and with those who hate Israel / Jews / Christians.

Why not?

Duh!
....its a war of attrition,
....where on the muslim side, TRUTH is less important, than outcomes.

'Israeli treatment of Palestinians'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229690857/137#137




easel said,

Quote:

Without Israel we (the whole planet) would be much better off.

easel said,

Quote:

By the way, when was the last Jewish prophet? I think God has slightly abandoned the Jews. Haven't you noticed just how much trouble the world is in, and how most of the conflict is centred around the middle east? If Israel didn't exist in the middle east as a Jewish state, and the west didn't support them militarily, we would live in a much safer environment.

easel,

I'm glad that you feel happy to make such sweeping statements.

And, i can tell you that Paul was one of the last Jewish prophets [see Romans, below].
...he's the one who 'saw the light' on the road to Damascus.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: *and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced*, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 13:1  In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.


Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.


Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: *but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes*.


Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21  As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


Psalms 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.


Isaiah 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.


No one should presume that God is finished with Israel, or the Jews, just yet!

Interesting Yadda.

Doesn't it say in the OT something along the lines of all men are created equal? Yet the Israeli government supports segregation and different rights for non Jews?

Also, I have heard this in many places, but can't find the Biblical reference, but didn't Jesus say that the Jews would suffer and be condemned by all for ages because of what they did to him?

My understanding, from a conversation with an ex-Lebanese army Druze fellow, is that the Lebanese army is split in to Muslims, Christians, Druze etc etc, and that they all have their own militia/mafia thing divided amongst religious lines, and that Hezbollah is tough, even tougher than the official Lebanese army and the militias. Whilst it might not be true, going by that I'd say the Christians were not unarmed.

easel wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 2:26pm:

Interesting Yadda. Doesn't it say in the OT something along the lines of all men are created equal? Yet the Israeli government supports segregation and different rights for non Jews?

easel,

What rights do Jews have within Sharia jurisdictions in the M.E.?

How many Jews live in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc?

What rights do they enjoy?




Quote:

Also, I have heard this in many places, but can't find the Biblical reference, but didn't Jesus say that the Jews would suffer and be condemned by all for ages because of what they did to him?

easel,

There is reference within the OT, prophesying that the children of Israel [only identifiable as Jews today] would suffer, for breaking their covenant with God.

But that God would redeem all of his ppl.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27  And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28  And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30  When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31  (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.



I can't recall that Jesus said that Jews would 'be condemned by all for ages because of what they did to him'.

I believe that assertion is incorrect.




BUT,

Jesus was a Jew.

He *is* the Jewish messiah.

Jesus Christ, is the *atonement sacrifice* for Jews.

The wilderness tabernacle and sacrifice laws were set up, to prefigure Jesus, as the perfect atonement 'type'.

Exodus 12:5
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6  And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7  And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Leviticus 16:15
Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16  And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.


Read about how this relates to Jesus further, in....

Hebrews 9 & 10



John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



And Judah [Jews] do share the blood of the atonement sacrifice....

The Jews called out to Pilate....

Matthew 27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: *but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes*.
29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.






All this 'atonement for sin', and 'blood sacrifice', sounds a little weird to us today.

But if you study the Bible, eventually you will understand, these things are allegories and 'types', which explain our spiritual redemption.

We can live in the world, or we can search for God.

That is God's great commission for us.

To seek him.

But most ppl are more interested in the world,
.....to eat, drink, and be merry.

And it is the season to be jolly, isn't it?


Ecclesiastes 8:15
Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry.....


Matthew 24:37
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Yadda wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 4:34pm:

easel wrote on Dec 7th, 2008 at 2:26pm: Interesting Yadda. Doesn't it say in the OT something along the lines of all men are created equal? Yet the Israeli government supports segregation and different rights for non Jews? easel, What rights do Jews have within Sharia jurisdictions in the M.E.? How many Jews live in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc? What rights do they enjoy?

easel,

This isn't to suggest that i believe that 'Palestinians' living within Israel are mistreated.

Far from it.



Example....

DISSENT CRUSHED
WHY MUSLIMS RARELY SPEAK OUT, EVEN IN U.S.
November 19, 2006
MUSLIMS are often accused of not speaking out sufficiently against terrorism. Nonie Darwish knows one reason why: Their fellow Muslims won't let them.
Darwish, who comes from Egypt and was born and raised a Muslim, was set to tell students at Brown University about the twisted hatred and radicalism she grew to despise in her own culture. A campus Jewish group, Hillel, had contacted her to speak there Thursday.
But the event was just called off.
Muslim students had complained that Darwish was "too controversial." They insisted she be denied a platform at Brown, and after contentious debate Hillel agreed.
......From her childhood in the '50s, she's seen seething animosity toward Jews, Israel, America and non-believers generally pervert her culture. "I asked myself, as a Muslim Arab child, was I ever taught peace? The answer is no. We learned just the opposite: honor and pride can only come from jihad and martyrdom."
In elementary schools in Gaza, where she lived until age 8, Darwish learned "vengeance and retaliation. Peace," she says, "was considered a sign of defeat and weakness."
An event in 1996 inflamed her longstanding frustration with her community. Her brother suffered a stroke while in Gaza, and his Egyptian friends and relatives all agreed: To save his life, he needed to go to Hadassah hospital in Jerusalem, not to Cairo. Even though they had spent their lives demeaning Israelis - and boasting of Arab supremacy.
Hadassah saved her brother's life; understandably, her appreciation for Jews and Israelis grew. Today Darwish preaches not only the almost embarrassing lengths to which Jews go to seek dialogue and peace, but also their cultural, political, scientific and economic contributions.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11192006/postopinion/opedcolumnists/dissent_crushed_opedcolumnists_adam_brodsky.htm?page=0

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy/support for Sharia. That extends to Zionism also.

I'm trying to approach the issue on religious grounds, more so than political/factional grounds. And the state of Israel breaks the rules they are supposed to follow in the establishment of a religious country.

I'm going to try and interpret your various references, please tell me what you think of this.


Quote:

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: *and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced*, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 13:1  In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

So a house has been opened to the people who live in Jerusalem where they can sin and be unclean? Is this OT stuff or prophecy?

Aren't Christians supposed to be more NT, seeing as Jesus was a fulfilment of the old law?

easel wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 5:11pm:

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy/support for Sharia. That extends to Zionism also. I'm trying to approach the issue on religious grounds, more so than political/factional grounds. And the state of Israel breaks the rules they are supposed to follow in the establishment of a religious country. I'm going to try and interpret your various references, please tell me what you think of this. Quote: Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: *and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced*, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 13:1  In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. So a house has been opened to the people who live in Jerusalem where they can sin and be unclean? Is this OT stuff or prophecy? Aren't Christians supposed to be more NT, seeing as Jesus was a fulfilment of the old law?

easel,

You are trying to do this exactly wrong.

To learn from the Bible, we should read the Bible ourselves, and let the spirit within us, guide us in understanding what it 'means'.

If you want to be a student of the Bible, then simply read it.

You don't need ppl to guide you.

And i'm not setting up a church.

You should simply let God's spirit guide, and show you, that which the spirit wants to reveal to you.



If you want to start reading the Bible i would suggest to starting reading, at either the gospel of John, or at the Psalms.

Well then my interpretation of that passage is that Jerusalem has been taken over by sinners and unclean people and they are under guise of purity and 'chosen ones'.

easel wrote on Dec 7^th, 2008 at 6:16pm:

Well then my interpretation of that passage is that Jerusalem has been taken over by sinners and unclean people and they are under guise of purity and 'chosen ones'.

Your interpretation is wrong.


Quote:

CRUDE oil prices have collapsed to just above $US40 a barrel ... Some analysts are even tipping that prices could go as low as $US25 a barrel next year...

I use to be a Zionist, then I got older and realized The Jews don't do anything for anyone but demand this and that..

Isralites are a bane unto everybody. The world would probably be a better place to live without them. The Muslims Holy Land would be their's, and thus they wouldn't be butthurting, there would've never been Nazis and thus nobody to compare us too to make us look like evil sons a bitches, and America would not be the declaring all these wars, bullying the world because their slut of a girlfriend Isral told them too.

I laughed so hard at American Dad when Stan was forced by that terrorist to dress as Isral and Uncle Sam and makeout lol! I even knew a Jewish girl who looked like that. ;D


You could call it bad expriences, but I don't trust Jews. Every one I've met has betrayed and lied to me. Jewish religion apparently cares more about eating ham then being an upstanding person.. What else I don't like is this false notion that they are a race. They are a religion, (Judaism) occupying enough territory to be a nation (Isral). But that does not make them a race. Is Canada a race of people? Is Wiccan a race of people?


I wouldn't go as far as to say crush Irsral, but I'd definitely consider shaking hands with Muslim occupants and forming an alliance. In return for peace, we'll step aside and let them bomb Isralites back to hell. If they are God's chosen people, then they don't need any of us to defend them.

My other disdain for Isral combined with my sense of humor made me yell in my head "WHY DO JEWS SPARKLE?!"

That'll make sense if any of you read Twilight lol!

EDIT: lol! I just told that one to James..

Jim: Why do Jews sparkle?!
James: All the gold they ingest.. duh..
Jim: ;D

Jim- try to keep your anti-semitism down to a low roar in here. it's not welcome.

I have jewish friends and I don't appreciate you suggesting that the world would be better if jews never existed.

perhaps the world would be better if people like hitler never existed- maybe then there would never have been nazis. did you ever think of that?

Quote:

perhaps the world would be better if people like hitler never existed- maybe then there would never have been nazis. did you ever think of that?

Maybe it would've. Maybe it wouldn't have. I think the nazis did lots of great things, but if you want to believe the world would be a better place without them, that's your business.

You don't see me telling you to not to express your outrage of them. Why? Because obviously you got reasons to hate the nazis.

So hate them. That's what being human is all about. Hating, loving, living, dying..

http://www.scifi3d.com/downloads/Star_Wars/SWImages/401_sml_EmperorPalpatine.jpg
Give into your hatred... lol!


I see a pattern though that "acceptable targets" always seem to be forces that were opposed to Jews at one point or another.

The Nazis, The Communists, The Muslims.

Noone seems to care when people hate them. What makes them so evil? They're just religions/political ideologies.

Hell, The Spanish Inquisition was far more brutal and oppressive then The Nazis. But if I call someone an Inquisition. They'd just look at me like I was retarded.

Or quote Monty Python.

well I certainly don't hate muslims so you're wrong on that account

I don't mind you expressing outrage- but I won't put up with religion or people bashing. so your anti-semitic jokes etc - aren't cool

and the difference between bashing the nazis and the jews is that the nazis were inherent to a plan of religious genocide- whereas the jews just happened to be there

There were few zionist terrorists but by far not as many as there are islamist terrorists. Plus why did  islamists terrorist in Mumbai have tortured people before killing them?

stay on topic please

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 8:16pm:

stay on topic please

Does muslim terrorism have nothing to do with zionist response?

tallowood wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 8:33pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 8:16pm: stay on topic please Does muslim palestinian terrorism have nothing to do with zionist response?

you were talking about mumbai

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 8:35pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 8:33pm: Gaybriel wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 8:16pm: stay on topic please Does muslim palestinian terrorism have nothing to do with zionist response? you were talking about mumbai

Why did muslim terrorists in Mumbai attacked Israeli targets and torture before killing them.
I try to find out if it was due to muslem hatred of zionizm or just muslem hatred of jews.

aaaha! sorry I understand now

Quote:

Why did muslim terrorists in Mumbai attacked Israeli targets and torture before killing them. I try to find out if it was due to muslem hatred of zionizm or just muslem hatred of jews.

Hatred of jews. Islam has long been an enemy of the jews, the whole zionist thing is just the latest angle.

tallowood wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 7:54pm:

There were few zionist terrorists but by far not as many as there are islamist terrorists. Plus why did  islamists terrorist in Mumbai have tortured people before killing them?

Israel would have people trained and capable (and performing) of the acts of terrorism you hear about illegal groups doing.

I suppose with government backing it's not terrorism though?

easel wrote on Dec 17^th, 2008 at 10:02pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 7:54pm: There were few zionist terrorists but by far not as many as there are islamist terrorists. Plus why did  islamists terrorist in Mumbai have tortured people before killing them? Israel would have people trained and capable (and performing) of the acts of terrorism you hear about illegal groups doing. I suppose with government backing it's not terrorism though?

As I said before it is still less by millions what islamic countries do.
Also islamists do it in offence while zionists do it in self defence.