Quote:

Correspondents say Mr Abbas is facing challenges to his legitimacy, with Hamas claiming his term is over and many of his supporters angered by criticisms he made of the militant group while it was under fire from Israel.

Source: BBC

According to the Israeli statements, their aim was to weaken Hamas and to disable their capacity to launch anymore rocket attacks.

It's the first objective, of weakning Hamas, that seems to have been the reason behind the excessive civilian casualties. By hitting the civilians, this would cause them to pull their support out from under Hamas, and swallow the IDF propaganda line (and Egypt's and Abbas') that Hamas is actually responsible for their deaths. But in fact the exact opposite has happened. Hamas just seems to have become stronger from this, and Fatah has just lost more credibility even amongst it's own supporters. And the resilient Palestinian people are well aware who is responsible for the civilian deaths and who is fighting to protect them. I had the opportunity last week to travel to Cairo to visit some of the wounded Ghazans in the various hospitals around Cairo. After speaking with them, it's quite clear that all of them are fervantly still behind their democratically elected leadership, and support them every step of the way in their resistance against the encroaching Zionist entity. I did not find a single person who blamed Hamas for their injuries (many of them life threatening) and their condition, ie. the loss and destruction of their houses and possessions etc. This means that the first Israeli objective simply hasn't been achieved whatsoever. In fact it's completely failed, as it's actually caused Fatah supporters to align themselves more with Hamas, and wake up to the reality that their leadership are just Zionist lackeys.

This would indicate that Israel has just callously slaughtered 1300 or so innocent Palestinians for a failed cause. They didn't manage to bomb the people into pulling their support from Hamas. In fact all they did was cause about 1000 or so more families to completely despise them even more, and to dedicate themselves to unflinching resistance, certainly not a good move on Israel's part, unless of course they perhaps wanted to cause the people to become more militant? Who knows.

As for the second objective, Hamas were still firing rockets even after Israel called a ceasefire, so that doesn't appear to have been met either.

No doubt the timing of this onslaught is linked somehow to the US presidential change of hands. Israel has announced she will have fully completed her withdraw from Gaza by Tuesday, when Obama takes office. Perhaps the assault on the Ghazans is meant to galvanise them into becoming more militant, so when Obama takes over, he will be dealing with an "Israel who voluntarily withdrew" and a Gaza which is "Boiling over with feelings of revenge".

Guess we'll need to wait and see how the results of this massacre will influence the next few month or two of developments in the region, to see what Israel's real objectives were.

So when is the next election in Gaza?

How about you answer my question about how many elections Hamas supposedly participated in and lost to Fatah...

Hamas won the elections and are the democratically elected government. But as I suspected, the 'guardians of democracy' only like democratically elected leaders when you choose who they want you to. In effect, democracy is about freedom to choose your leaders, so long as it's who we want. A bit like freedom of speech isn't it? You're free to say what we want (attacking and slandering Islam) but not free to even re-examine history (jewish & armenian massacres).

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 7:42am:

So when is the next election in Gaza?

There you go Freediver...the answer to the question you asked me on another thread.

I'm still waiting for you to name one Israeli stated goal which was achieved during this attack.

Hamas have clearly shown they are more then capable of still firing rockets (on the last day before the ceasefire Hamas rockets were still being fired), Hamas are stronger politically, and they still are the power in Gaza.

After all, your so adamant that Israel won and Hamas lost, so it shouldn't be so difficult for you to at least name one.

Quote:

But as I suspected, the 'guardians of democracy' only like democratically elected leaders when you choose who they want you to

I couldnt give a rats who they choose, as long as whoever it is behiaves like sane civilised people, instead of barbarian rabble that randomly fire rockets into civilians, glorify suicide bombings and keep fighting a war with Israel that they have to lose.

So tell me Abu, are you a supporter of Hamas?

Quote:

But as I suspected, the 'guardians of democracy' only like democratically elected leaders when you choose who they want you to.

Abu, supporting democracy, and seeing it as a get-out-of-jail-free card are not the same thing. There has never been any confusion over this, except on your part.


Quote:

You're free to say what we want (attacking and slandering Islam) but not free to even re-examine history (jewish & armenian massacres).

You can make up your own fairytale versions of history if you want. Just don't expect others to take them seriously.

Calanen,


Quote:

I couldnt give a rats who they choose, as long as whoever it is behiaves like sane civilised people

Precisely, as long as whoever it is, is subservient to the U.S and their 'peace process' (by peace, we mean here arming Israel to the teeth and leaving the Palestinians subject to them in absolute squalour) and doesn't resist the foreign entity that daily encroaches on more and more of their land.


Quote:

So tell me Abu, are you a supporter of Hamas?

Have already stated my answer to this question on other threads, go read them.

freediver,


Quote:

There has never been any confusion over this, except on your part.

Nowhere have I stated it's a "get out of gaol free card". All I said is that it's quite hypocritical of the West to want to overthrow democratically elected governments, and instead force onto people someone they didn't elect. It shows quite clearly you couldn't care less about people electing their government, you just want them to be ruled by someone who shares your own ideology and goals.


Quote:

You can make up your own fairytale versions of history if you want. Just don't expect others to take them seriously.

And in quite a few countries, don't expect to stay a free man. You face a prison term for such 'crimes'.

Quote:

Nowhere have I stated it's a "get out of gaol free card".

It is not hypocritical at all. When I say it's not a get-out-of-jail-free, I mean that other countries are not going to support your country or your government no matter what just because it is democratically elected. You are implying that the west should do this or have stated they would do this, hence the 'get-out-of-jail-free' comment. Or maybe I am just misunderstanding your accusations of hypocrisy. Perhaps you should explain it.

Quote:

I mean that other countries are not going to support your country or your government no matter what just because it is democratically elected.

Nowhere have I stated they must support it, but on the same token they must not work to remove it, as it is the choice of the people there. What it indicates is that in reality the  West couldn't given a damn about a government being elected, they only care about whose interests they will serve.

Quote:

All I said is that it's quite hypocritical of the West to want to overthrow democratically elected governments, and instead force onto people someone they didn't elect. It shows quite clearly you couldn't care less about people electing their government, you just want them to be ruled by someone who shares your own ideology and goals.

If these democratically elected person just picked up the trash in Gaza and focussed on creating some jobs there instead of firing rockets into Israel, probably more of the West would support them. Their adherence to the most appalling terror tactics guarantees they get no support.

Quote:

Have already stated my answer to this question on other threads, go read them

'Yes' or 'No' might have worked too.

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:30pm:

Quote: Have already stated my answer to this question on other threads, go read them 'Yes' or 'No' might have worked too.

Why...are you unable to go back to old threads and read them. I suspect that he's probably sick of answering the same questions time and time again.

hoo-mar! :)

Quote:

Nowhere have I stated they must support it, but on the same token they must not work to remove it, as it is the choice of the people there.

Says who? Again, you are pretending that democracy is a get out of jail free card. Whether there is a moral argument for removing a government depends on what that government does. Obviously, not killing a bunch of people to get into power helps, but that doesn't give it free reign to do evil. This is BS that they don't have to support it, but they cannot work against it either. You are making it up. It is a strawman argument. You are fabricating an absurd moral stance and ascribing it to the west, then complaining that they fall short, then fabricating a motivation.

Quote:

What it indicates is that in reality the  West couldn't given a damn about a government being elected, they only care about whose interests they will serve.

No it doesn't mean that at all.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:17pm:

Says who? Again, you are pretending that democracy is a get out of jail free card. Whether there is a moral argument for removing a government depends on what that government does. Obviously, not killing a bunch of people to get into power helps, but that doesn't give it free reign to do evil. This is BS that they don't have to support it, but they cannot work against it either. You are making it up. It is a strawman argument. You are fabricating an absurd moral stance and ascribing it to the west, then complaining that they fall short, then fabricating a motivation.

So you only support democracy if you approve of those who are democratically elected.

Thank you for highlighting the hypocricy of the west and its call for democracy.

ahh..the old strawman again...a sure sign that Freediver is struggling.


freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:17pm:

No it doesn't mean that at all.

Yes it does..and whats even better, is you just proved it you doofus.

You just admitted that you don't believe in the right for people to elect their own governments...if 'you' believe that government is evil.

Therefore...you do not believe that people should be free to elect who they wish for.

What you do believe is that people should be free to elect who 'YOU' wish for.

Quote:

At the beginning of the conflict, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced two main goals for waging war on Hamas – to decisively smash the terrorist group's ability to attack Israel; and to stop Hamas' rocket attacks from Gaza aimed at nearby Jewish communities. ...

Both goals were achived.
1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas
2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

Quote:

So you only support democracy if you approve of those who are democratically elected.

Wrong.


Quote:

Yes it does..and whats even better, is you just proved it you doofus.

No it doesn't. There is a subtle but important difference.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:33pm:

Quote: So you only support democracy if you approve of those who are democratically elected. Wrong. [quote]Yes it does..and whats even better, is you just proved it you doofus.

No it doesn't. There is a subtle but important difference.[/quote]

No their isn't. You've made your views rather clear.

You believe that people should be free to choose their own governments, but if that government doesn't do what YOU want, then you believe that this government should removed, by force if necessary.

In these cases, what the people want becomes irrelevant.

Its called 'conditional' democracy, and highlights the hypocricy and double standards of people like you...and the west.

Lets not get away from the topic "What were Israel's objectives?"

Both goals were achived.
1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas
2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

Quote:

You believe that people should be free to choose their own governments, but if that government doesn't do what YOU want, then you believe that this government should removed

No I don't Lestat. Insisting over and over again that I do seems kind of childish. There are plenty of governments around the world that don't do what I want them to. That includes the Australian government. It is a giant leap to going from saying that democracy is not a get out of jail free card to saying that they have to do what I want. Nothing I said justifies this leap you have made. Perhaps it's just too subtle for you.

Tallow,

You already posted your questions about 4 posts ago. You also posted them  in the extremism forum and Lestat answered them for you there. Please stop making duplicate posts.

tallowood wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:43pm:

Lets not get away from the topic "What were Israel's objectives?" Both goals were achived. 1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas 2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

lol...are you still repeating these lies dumbo, even though I showed you a report from a jew which clearly stated that the Hamas attacked continued, and Hamas is still more then capable of firing rockets.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48pm:

Tallow, You already posted your questions about 4 posts ago. You also posted them  in the extremism forum and Lestat answered them for you there. Please stop making duplicate posts.

Neither Lestat nor you have answered the question that is why I keep asking it. If he did and I overlooked it can you kindly  provide the link where he did so?

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:50pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:43pm: Lets not get away from the topic "What were Israel's objectives?" Both goals were achived. 1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas 2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort? lol...are you still repeating these lies dumbo, even though I showed you a report from a jew which clearly stated that the Hamas attacked continued, and Hamas is still more then capable of firing rockets.

Dumbos are muslims who get their ass kicked by dhimmis like me.
Now can you give an example of hamas continues rocket attacks today or yesterday?

Quote:

You believe that people should be free to choose their own governments, but if that government doesn't do what YOU want, then you believe that this government should removed, by force if necessary.

No. I just believe that people who behave like Hamas should be removed with extreme prejudice, which is necessary.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48pm:

Quote: You believe that people should be free to choose their own governments, but if that government doesn't do what YOU want, then you believe that this government should removed No I don't Lestat. Insisting over and over again that I do seems kind of childish. There are plenty of governments around the world that don't do what I want them to. That includes the Australian government. It is a giant leap to going from saying that democracy is not a get out of jail free card to saying that they have to do what I want. Nothing I said justifies this leap you have made. Perhaps it's just too subtle for you.

You say you don't...but every one your posts show that you do.

Palestinians elected Hamas in free and fair democratic elections. Yet you strongly support Israel's and the wests attempts at removing Hamas from power.

Therefore, just as I said. You want Palestinians to vote for their own government, and they did. Yet you believe that government to be 'evil', because they haven't towed 'YOUR' line. So now you want them removed.

Tell me where am I wrong Freediver. It is quite evident.

You say its a subtle difference, but really, this is just semantics.

THe fact is that when Hamas won election, Israel and the west IMMEDIATELY blockaded Gaza....they didn't have a chance to do anything.

The west did not wait, did not negotiate, did not even give Hamas a chance to govern Palestine, they acted immediately.

From the moment Hamas were voted into power, Israel and the west did everything in their power to deny the Palestinians their democratic right, and reverse the election result.

The US/Israel wanted their puppy dog Abbas, the Palestinians chose Hamas.

And the Palestinian people were punished for not voting the right party. These are the facts...and you support this action.

Your claims of 'their is a subtle difference' is just a desperate attempt to deny your hypocricy. Unfortunately it is rather clear for all to see.

tallowood wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:56pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:50pm: tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:43pm: Lets not get away from the topic "What were Israel's objectives?" Both goals were achived. 1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas 2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort? lol...are you still repeating these lies dumbo, even though I showed you a report from a jew which clearly stated that the Hamas attacked continued, and Hamas is still more then capable of firing rockets. Dumbos are muslims who get their ass kicked by dhimmis like me. Now can you give an example of hamas continues rocket attacks today or yesterday?

"Olmert's stated goal of destroying Hamas' ability to rocket Israel fell short. This is obvious since Hamas fired an average of 33 rockets per day every day during the entire conflict, and reportedly shot at least 20 rockets and eight mortars since making its cease-fire declaration yesterday"

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86570

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48pm:

Tallow, You already posted your questions about 4 posts ago. You also posted them  in the extremism forum and Lestat answered them for you there. Please stop making duplicate posts.

I answer the dimwits question time and time again and he just keeps asking it.

Its like talking to a brick wall.

Quote:

And the Palestinian people were punished for not voting the right party. These are the facts...and you support this action. Your claims of 'their is a subtle difference' is just a desperate attempt to deny your hypocricy. Unfortunately it is rather clear for all to see.

So you support Hamas?

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:58pm:

Quote: You believe that people should be free to choose their own governments, but if that government doesn't do what YOU want, then you believe that this government should removed, by force if necessary. No. I just believe that people who behave like Hamas should be removed with extreme prejudice, which is necessary.

Thats ok, because their are people out their that think you are a waste of oxygen, and should also be removed with extreme prejudice.

Not me though...I just like to point at you and laugh. :D

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:00pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:56pm: Lestat wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:50pm: tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:43pm: Lets not get away from the topic "What were Israel's objectives?" Both goals were achived. 1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas 2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort? lol...are you still repeating these lies dumbo, even though I showed you a report from a jew which clearly stated that the Hamas attacked continued, and Hamas is still more then capable of firing rockets. Dumbos are muslims who get their ass kicked by dhimmis like me. Now can you give an example of hamas continues rocket attacks today or yesterday? "Olmert's stated goal of destroying Hamas' ability to rocket Israel fell short. This is obvious since Hamas fired an average of 33 rockets per day every day during the entire conflict, and reportedly shot at least 20 rockets and eight mortars since making its cease-fire declaration yesterday" http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86570

Was it today or yesterday? Did hamas fired any rockets after it declared cease-fire?

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:02pm:

Quote: And the Palestinian people were punished for not voting the right party. These are the facts...and you support this action. Your claims of 'their is a subtle difference' is just a desperate attempt to deny your hypocricy. Unfortunately it is rather clear for all to see. So you support Hamas?

Am I Palestinian?

Read my post again dopey, this time a little slower, cause its seems you have failed to understand that the term 'Palestinian people' actually refers to 'Palestinian people'...and not me.

So I take it that Israel's objectives were achieved.

tallowood wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:04pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:00pm: tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:56pm: Lestat wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:50pm: tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:43pm: Lets not get away from the topic "What were Israel's objectives?" Both goals were achived. 1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas 2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort? lol...are you still repeating these lies dumbo, even though I showed you a report from a jew which clearly stated that the Hamas attacked continued, and Hamas is still more then capable of firing rockets. Dumbos are muslims who get their ass kicked by dhimmis like me. Now can you give an example of hamas continues rocket attacks today or yesterday? "Olmert's stated goal of destroying Hamas' ability to rocket Israel fell short. This is obvious since Hamas fired an average of 33 rockets per day every day during the entire conflict, and reportedly shot at least 20 rockets and eight mortars since making its cease-fire declaration yesterday" http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86570 Was it today or yesterday? Did hamas fired any rockets after it declared cease-fire?

The article was dated 19th, which was yesterday.

"and reportedly shot at least 20 rockets and eight mortars since making its cease-fire declaration yesterday"

Do you understand the word 'since'?

Also..in addition to this.

"Olmert's stated goal of destroying Hamas' ability to rocket Israel fell short."

From all reports...Hamas still has the ability to fire rockets into Israel, hence, another goal which was not achieved.

Do you need me to dumb it down for you any further. If you don't get it yet, then you never will, hence I will not waste my time any longer.

tallowood wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:07pm:

So I take it that Israel's objectives were achieved.

Whatever...

mod: insults

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:09pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:04pm: Lestat wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:00pm: tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:56pm: Lestat wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:50pm: tallowood wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:43pm: Lets not get away from the topic "What were Israel's objectives?" Both goals were achived. 1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas 2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort? lol...are you still repeating these lies dumbo, even though I showed you a report from a jew which clearly stated that the Hamas attacked continued, and Hamas is still more then capable of firing rockets. Dumbos are muslims who get their ass kicked by dhimmis like me. Now can you give an example of hamas continues rocket attacks today or yesterday? "Olmert's stated goal of destroying Hamas' ability to rocket Israel fell short. This is obvious since Hamas fired an average of 33 rockets per day every day during the entire conflict, and reportedly shot at least 20 rockets and eight mortars since making its cease-fire declaration yesterday" http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86570 Was it today or yesterday? Did hamas fired any rockets after it declared cease-fire? The article was dated 19th, which was yesterday. ...

Today is 21st but what is more important is the date when hamass fired the rockets.

So what was the date?

BTW, it seems from your posts that stupidity is prerogative of islamists  if yo want keep proving it again and again just keep posting ;)

tallow, do you deny Hamas fired rockets since Israel declared ceasefire?

Tension eased in southern Israel, the target of Palestinian rocket fire, even though Hamas launched nearly 20 rockets in a final salvo before announcing a cease-fire. (Yahoo News)

Seventeen rockets hit southern Israel after Olmert declared an end to the hostilities at 2am (The Guardian).

The Palestinians and Israel continued to skirmish for several hours Sunday after Israel said it was stopping its offensive against Hamas. Palestinians fired at least 19 rockets into Israel on Sunday -- including at least two after the Palestinian cease-fire declaration (CNN)

A total of 20 rockets exploded in southern Israel on Sunday, despite Israel's declaration of a unilateral cease-fire in the coastal territory on Saturday night (Haaretz)

abu, do you claim that hamas is still firing rockets into Israel? If not then you have to admit that Israeli achieved the objective.

Also can you answer When hamas will try for another victory of this sort again? If you can't answer the question then you have to admit that Israelis achieved the second objective too and hamas is just plain stupid to claim victory.

Even Lestat despite his stupidity understood that.

tallow,

I provided several links above to show Hamas is still quite capable of launching rockets, and did so AFTER Israel declared ceasefire. This indicates Israel ceased hostilities, whilst Hamas was still capable of firing rockets. Israel's objective was to stop Hamas being _capable_ of firing rockets, they did not achieve this.

Hamas didn't try for any victory to begin with, they're just defending their homes and families, as Lestat already pointed out to you.

Besides even if Israel had some semblance of victory, it would be a pretty hollow one. They managed to militarily dominate a people who've been completely blockaded from the outside world for about 2 years, who haven't even been able to get food and basic supplies, let alone weapons. Whilst the Zionists just continue arming themselves to the teeth with the most advanced weapons, all paid for by US taxpayers... really great victory.

Quote:

You say you don't...but every one your posts show that you do.

No they don't Lestat. Try reading what it actually says. Try responding to what it actually says instead of making up something to respond to.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:02am:

tallow, I provided several links above to show Hamas is still quite capable of launching rockets, ...

You haven't provided any links to show that hamas doing it now. Your hope that hamass is capable is of no significance because reality indicates that hamass was well and truly castrated by IDF.
Your and Lestat's refusal to truthfully answer "When hamas will try for another victory of this sort again?" is further indication of emasculation of hamass by IDF.

tallowood wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:48pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 8:02am: tallow, I provided several links above to show Hamas is still quite capable of launching rockets, ... You haven't provided any links to show that hamas doing it now. Your hope that hamass is capable is of no significance because reality indicates that hamass was well and truly castrated by IDF. Your and Lestat's refusal to truthfully answer "When hamas will try for another victory of this sort again?" is further indication of emasculation of hamass by IDF.

I've answered your question

mod: insults removed

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:05pm:

Calanen wrote on Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:02pm: Quote: And the Palestinian people were punished for not voting the right party. These are the facts...and you support this action. Your claims of 'their is a subtle difference' is just a desperate attempt to deny your hypocricy. Unfortunately it is rather clear for all to see. So you support Hamas? Am I Palestinian? Read my post again dopey, this time a little slower, cause its seems you have failed to understand that the term 'Palestinian people' actually refers to 'Palestinian people'...and not me.

I just asked if you support Hamas, not if the Palestinian people supported them. So, do you support Hamas, or not?

tallo- can you please not post pms in general forums.

as to Lestat- he has been warned about his behaviour

I was actually about to go through and take out the personal insults in here when you posted so don't worry they're being taken out

also- you can always pm with posts that you wish to be deleted if they aren't already dealt with

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 8:05pm:

tallo- can you please not post pms in general forums. as to Lestat- he has been warned about his behaviour I was actually about to go through and take out the personal insults in here when you posted so don't worry they're being taken out

I don' think this sort of PMs are of private nature so the should not be PMed.
Anyway, thanks for your effort to keep discussion within civil borders.

no worries