Boozy Aussies hooked on gambling: cleric09:15 AEST Fri Jan 23 2009


Australians are boozers hooked on prostitution and gambling, Melbourne Islamic cleric Abu Hamza says.

Mr Hamza made headlines on Thursday, and earned criticism from Islamic groups and Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, for a 2003 speech posted on the internet last year in which he said it was OK for Muslim men to hit their wives and that it was not possible for a man to rape his wife.

The Herald Sun newspaper on Friday reported the contents of another speech, also posted on the internet, in which Mr Hamza was critical of the Australian way of life.

"They think happiness can be achieved by being intoxicated, by going to the casino and blowing your money away, by going from one prostitute to the other," he said.

"They don't know what life is all about, that's why they are on the booze, why they are binge drinking . . . why unfortunately suicide has skyrocketed, murder, anxiety and depression."

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and Islamic leaders have condemned Mr Hamza for his earlier remarks but the Coburg mosque cleric has told a confidant his message has been taken out of context and that he was referring to hitting wives in a metaphorical sense.

Mr Rudd told reporters Mr Hamza's comments had no place in modern Australia.

"Under no circumstances is sexual violence permissible or acceptable in Australia - under no circumstances," Mr Rudd said.

"Under no circumstances are other forms of violence, physical violence, acceptable towards women in Australia nor are they acceptable in my view to mainstream Muslim teachings.

"Australia will not tolerate these sort of remarks. They don't belong in modern Australia, and he should stand up, repudiate them and apologise."

The President of the Islamic Council of Victoria (ICV) Ramzi Elsayed said he had spoken with Mr Hamza about the lecture, titled The Keys to a Successful Marriage.

"He told me he was speaking in a metaphorical sense," Mr Elsayed told AAP.

"In regards to hitting your wife, his position is that it has always been metaphorical - it's not a whack, it's not a slap, it's a wake-up call."

He said Islam did not condone violence against women or making a wife have sex with her husband against her will.

"He believes he was taken out of context insofar as he was talking about people who censure their spouses - it was not so much a physical hit as a metaphorical one to say wake up, we're heading for a divorce kind-of-thing."

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/732111/boozy-aussies-hooked-on-gambling-cleric


Good on you Ruddy for standing up and saying something

Amadd wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:47am:

Good on you Ruddy for standing up and saying something

Rudd is not a Christian.

If he was a Christian, he would confront the truth of what the Koran contains, and confront what it encourages.

If Rudd was a Christian, he would unceasingly confront revealed ISLAMIC 'values' head on.

Instead Rudd made a statement, a sound byte, merely because he was forced to respond to an issue that emerged in the media.




Mr Rudd, it is a Christian duty to separate ourselves from evil.

Please lead this country.

Well if he heard some of the idealisms of the "OzPolitic's Abu" then he might have a bit more to say.

Amadd what is the meaning of the title of this topic?

as to his discussion of australian society- first of all, context please- secondly- he's right. gambling, prostitution and drinking are big problems here

Ok I clarified the title for you Gaybriel. Does that help?

As for the content of the article apart from the wife beating, yes I agree too.
Gambling, prostitution and drinking have been around since Adam was a boy.
Would you suggest an attempt to ban them? That's been tried before, it doesn't work.

oh right- you're asking if he's the guy who was saying that stuff- gotcha. i thought you were asking if he was a boozer which didn't make sense to me :P

no I don't think banning works- it just makes it more underground and more dangerous

I think the usual route of educating people about the pitfalls of these things is most helpful really. getting them to see the bigger picture about how it affects their lives and society

If you put the contents of the article together with somebody who condones wife beating, then I'm sure that anybody could put two and two together to see the magic solution that this Abu has in mind.

Amadd wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 12:41pm:

If you put the contents of the article together with somebody who condones wife beating, then I'm sure that anybody could put two and two together to see the magic solution that this Abu has in mind.

well he doesn't condone wife beating in the understood sense of the term- as discussed elsewhere- but as to the rest- it's entirely possible, who knows. but then he's entitled to his opinion isn't he

Quote:

well he doesn't condone wife beating in the understood sense of the term- as discussed elsewhere- but as to the rest- it's entirely possible, who knows. but then he's entitled to his opinion isn't he

So he can preach "The understood meaning of the term", but he doesn't really mean it?
Should he also be allowed to preach Sharia law as long as he doesn't really mean it?

Amadd wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 1:14pm:

Quote: well he doesn't condone wife beating in the understood sense of the term- as discussed elsewhere- but as to the rest- it's entirely possible, who knows. but then he's entitled to his opinion isn't he So he can preach "The understood meaning of the term", but he doesn't really mean it? Should he also be allowed to preach Sharia law as long as he doesn't really mean it?

LOL

I like your logic.

Quote:

Should he also be allowed to preach Sharia law as long as he doesn't really mean it?

Last time I checked speaking about other laws, teaching them to people and believing in them is NOT illegal in Australia. Practising them could in some cases be illegal, that's perhaps true.

Unless of course you want to return back to the day of McCarthyism, and persecute anyone who believes in a political system other than Democracy.

Well it's because of people like you Abu that we now have to put up with archaic sedition laws.
In fact, it's because of our government importing people from such a backwards culture that they have enabled themselves to assert more control over all of us.

Free speech as Australians understand it shouldn't be banned, Islam should be banned until it can somehow move itself into the 21st century.


And yes it is illegal to preach inflammatory laws and cults here Abu.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 8:34am:

Quote: Should he also be allowed to preach Sharia law as long as he doesn't really mean it? Last time I checked speaking about other laws, teaching them to people and believing in them is NOT illegal in Australia. Practising them could in some cases be illegal, that's perhaps true. Unless of course you want to return back to the day of McCarthyism, and persecute anyone who believes in a political system other than Democracy.

abu,

A little of the pot calling the kettle black?


Lets just reassign a couple of moniker's in that sentence....

"Unless of course you want to return back to the day of McCarthyism the Kalifa, and persecute anyone who believes in a political system other than Democracy  ISLAM / Sharia jurisdiction."




abu,

Isn't it true that muslims who live alongside non-muslims [within host countries], believe that ISLAM should become dominant in those countries?

And isn't it true that muslims believe that ISLAM should only [ever] co-exist with other cultures, until it becomes strong enough politically, to become dominant?

And that such agitation [within host countries] for that domination of muslims, is the Jihad, or, the working for the cause of Allah?

Quote:

And yes it is illegal to preach inflammatory laws and cults here Abu.

I think it's illegal to directly incite people to break the law, but it doesn't go much beyond that. You cannot ban a religion or ideology. Our whole society is founded on giving people freedom and hoping that common sense prevails.

Amadd,


Quote:

Well it's because of people like you Abu that we now have to put up with archaic sedition laws.

No, that's because governments love to use fear as a tool to increase their power over their people. It's just sad the people bought into it.

Yadda,


Quote:

A little of the pot calling the kettle black? Lets just reassign a couple of moniker's in that sentence....

We don't  live in a Khilafah, we live in Australia, and Australia has certain values and systems. Do you not believe in those values and systems? If you do, then stop using the Khilafah system as your yardstick.


Quote:

Isn't it true that muslims who live alongside non-muslims [within host countries], believe that ISLAM should become dominant in those countries?

As I've mentioned before, just as true as it is that JW's and LDS' for instance want to see their host countries embrace their belief systems. Perhaps you belong to a proselytising church also that seeks  to spread it's message to all of it's fellow countrymen as well?

freediver,


Quote:

I think it's illegal to directly incite people to break the law, but it doesn't go much beyond that. You cannot ban a religion or ideology. Our whole society is founded on giving people freedom and hoping that common sense prevails.

At least someone here still remembers what Australian values are about.

Quote:

"He told me he was speaking in a metaphorical sense,"

I wonder how much he would enjoy a kick in the nuts?
Metaphorically, of course. ;)

The gutlesssness of the Islamic preachers, who do not even have the courage to try and defend the sick teachings they preach, is contemptible.
It is a good example of the contempt they show towards our society, because they see nothing wrong when they blatantly lie to the non-muslim population.

They do need some fresh excuses though, "out of context", and "mistranslation", are very overused, perhaps they could try something like, "I was possessed by a zionist hypnotist", and if they did, I know we could expect a few on this forum believe them. ;D

Amadd wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 1:14pm:

Quote: well he doesn't condone wife beating in the understood sense of the term- as discussed elsewhere- but as to the rest- it's entirely possible, who knows. but then he's entitled to his opinion isn't he So he can preach "The understood meaning of the term", but he doesn't really mean it? Should he also be allowed to preach Sharia law as long as he doesn't really mean it?

I don't know how you got any of that from what I said

Quote:

Do you not believe in those values and systems? If you do, then stop using the Khilafah system as your yardstick.

But that is what Islam is. What's wrong with judging Islam by it's commands? It is absurd to suggest people only judge Islam by what it tolerates when it has no choice, rather than what is commands when it does have a choice. You judge people by the choices they make, not the choices they cannot make.


Quote:

As I've mentioned before, just as true as it is that JW's and LDS' for instance want to see their host countries embrace their belief systems.

It's not the 'embracing of the belief system' that people have a problem with. It's the overthrowing of the government, the rejection of democracy, the denial of basic freedoms like freedom of religion etc.

We don't live in a Khilafah, we live in Australia. And you believe Australian laws and values are universal and should be applicable to all Australians, do you not?

We Australian Muslims, who are citizens of Australia, have agreed to live by the laws and standards of Australia, therefore anything else is irrelevant.

If we wish to see our fellow Australians guided and embrace Islam, then there's really no problem with that, by Australian laws and standards, that I can see. Unless you believe only Christians are allowed to proselytise in Australia... is  that right fd? I think this is what you're really afraid of. Not the imaginary idea we're going to turn Australia into an Islamic Khilafah. Muslims can't even turn their own countries (which are in some cases 99% Muslims) into a Khilafah, so there's buckley's of it happening here.

Quote:

We don't live in a Khilafah, we live in Australia. And you believe Australian laws and values are universal and should be applicable to all Australians, do you not?

I do not believe Australian laws are universal. There are plenty I disagree with. Nor do I think our values are universal. Some are.


Quote:

We Australian Muslims, who are citizens of Australia, have agreed to live by the laws and standards of Australia, therefore anything else is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to what? To what Islamic law says?


Quote:

Muslims can't even turn their own countries (which are in some cases 99% Muslims) into a Khilafah, so there's buckley's of it happening here.

That is hardly reassuring. Even where they fail they still manage to cause plenty of misery in the process. And besides, even if failure is inevitable, that is no reason to stop criticising the nasty aspects of the ideology. That's like saying we shouldn't criticise neo-Nazis because they are a lost cause anyway.

Quote:

I do not believe Australian laws are universal. There are plenty I disagree with. Nor do I think our values are universal. Some are.

Fine, but you agree our reference point, as Australians is Australian law, right? Not Shari'ah law.. agreed?


Quote:

That is hardly reassuring. Even where they fail they still manage to cause plenty of misery in the process.

Not quite sure what this refers to. The main Islamic organisation for instance who are working towards establishing the Khilafah in Islamic lands is Hizb ut-Tahrir, and I can't see any misery they've caused anywhere.

Perhaps you're confusing sectarian violence which has arisen out of resistance to occupation forces? That's a completely different issue, don't confuse them, just because all are loosely under the umbrella of "Islamist".

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 7:22pm:

We don't live in a Khilafah, we live in Australia. And you believe Australian laws and values are universal and should be applicable to all Australians, do you not? We Australian Muslims, who are citizens of Australia, have agreed to live by the laws and standards of Australia, therefore anything else is irrelevant. If we wish to see our fellow Australians guided and embrace Islam, then there's really no problem with that, by Australian laws and standards, that I can see. Unless you believe only Christians are allowed to proselytise in Australia... is  that right fd? I think this is what you're really afraid of. Not the imaginary idea we're going to turn Australia into an Islamic Khilafah. Muslims can't even turn their own countries (which are in some cases 99% Muslims) into a Khilafah, so there's buckley's of it happening here.

Australia, as all western liberal democracies, also have freedom of consciencee and speech and press. I am free to express the deepest dislike and contempt for any political program or system, including sharia and the caliphate, for any religion or lack thereof.

However, the outrageous assassinatios of the mind (Rushdie's fatwah, Danish cartoons, etc, etc) , the countless daily insults to freedom and actual assassinations (Maddrid, New york, London; Sydney, Paris, Goteborg, etc, etc rapes) by the sons of Mohammed in western countries, are all calculated to intimidate me and my fellow citizens into NOT criticising, ridiculing or even analysing and debunking the islamic political designs on our countries.

Islam operates in our countries by intimidation, implied and actual violence. It preaches its toxic creed under the protection of freedom but responds to criticism like all bullies - with violence and the threat of violence.

Quote:

Fine, but you agree our reference point, as Australians is Australian law, right? Not Shari'ah law.. agreed?

Not sure what you are getting at. If you want to compare Sharia law to something in order to explain it, choosing the system which people are most familiar with makes sense.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 7:22pm:

.......We Australian Muslims, who are citizens of Australia, have agreed to live by the laws and standards of Australia......

abu,

That is a blatantly untrue statement.

Any muslim who made such a declaration, and lived by it [i.e. honoured his words with deeds], would be declared an apostate by the [real] muslim community in Australia.

AND, they would suffer the consequences, of being a non-muslim.




EXAMPLES.....

Lovely people...

Outspoken Muslim seeks police protection [after threats from,     ...muslims]
By Barney Zwartz
March 22, 2007
One of Australia's most important Muslim leaders has sought police protection after criticising controversial cleric Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali.
Tom Zreika, president of the Lebanese Muslim Association - and Sheikh Hilali's employer - said he received non-stop phone threats yesterday after he released a document urging greater integration and for Muslims to "mend their ways".
The report, prepared for a national meeting of imams in Sydney this weekend, says some Muslims are "ruining it" for all and that Australians have "had enough" of Muslims.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/outspoken-muslim-seeks-police-protection/2007/03/21/1174153164032.html




MUSLIMS are outraged that prospective citizens will have to acknowledge.....Australia's values system.


Muslim outrage over Judeo-Christian values
By Ben Packham
May 19, 2007
MUSLIMS are outraged that prospective citizens will have to acknowledge the Judeo-Christian tradition as the basis of Australia's values system.
Australia's peak Muslim body said the proposed citizenship question - revealed in the Herald Sun - was disturbing and potentially divisive.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21760652-662,00.html


"......potentially divisive."

There you have it, from their own lips, muslims view it as divisive, to be subjected to learning about the un-ISLAMIC values of host countries like Australia.

.....values like, FREEDOM OF SPEECH.