had this sent to me...

Quote:

Here is a powerful and amazing  statement on Al Jazeera television. The woman is Wafa Sultan, an  Arab-American psychologist from Los Angeles . I would suggest  watching it ASAP because I don't know how long the link will be  active. This film clip should be shown around the world repeatedly!

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

Grendel wrote on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 11:29pm:

had this sent to me... Quote: Here is a powerful and amazing  statement on Al Jazeera television. The woman is Wafa Sultan, an  Arab-American psychologist from Los Angeles . I would suggest  watching it ASAP because I don't know how long the link will be  active. This film clip should be shown around the world repeatedly! http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

Grendel,

If this video is any good, someone will prolly post it on YOUTUBE.

I can't access this switch3 file.

Can anyone post a YOUTUBE link please?





Wafa Sultan.

An amazing, and brave woman.

A TRUTH speaker.

Please God, protect her.

That interview was on Al Jazeera about a year to 18 months ago. That's the thing about Al Jazeera - they like controversy and they are progressive. They will publish stories that even the Western media won't touch. It's an encouraging sign.

I like this clip from Iranian TV:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_n-qiKLv0DY


Why does there need to be a reason. Why do you need to understand?

I also like it when the young guy tells the reporter that his hairstyle is called 'fascist'. Young people rebel against authority everywhere- even in Iran. Reminds me of Bob Dylan.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HE-ejGWTUMY&feature=related

That is the youtube link Yadda, should play on any machine.
This is a clip from back in august 2006, so you may have seen it before, she basically says to stop calling it a clash of religion, or civilisations, as it is more a clash of civilisation versus backwardness, a clash of mentalities, modern versus medieval, etc.

She has a few videos up, debates with clerics, interviews etc.

She got her point across nicely didn't she?
Unfortunately the world needs a lot more than just one of her speaking out to stop the Islamic plague, and not too many get the protection of U.S. citizenship.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS6r97oE

This looks like the other side of the debate

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sZXLB0gufXs

That woman rocks, I have never seen anyone express what we all think in such a simple way, I do fear for her safety however.

She's good.

Pity the UN has made it illegal to criticize islam

Who listens to the UN anyway, bunch of non entity countries selling their votes to the highest bidder.

If you watch that You-tube with the other side of the debate, you start to understand things from a Muslim point of view. OK, she's probably not even able to hear what's going on. It's so obviously staged, but the things that the cleric are saying are quite mainstream.

It illustrates the reasons behind the gulf war, and by that I mean the gulf between the Muslim world and the Western world. The 'gulf' war is still going on.

A lot of what she says is correct, and unfortunately a lot of what the cleric is saying is correct too.

Yes I noticed he kept trying to call her a heretic and trying to discredit her that way...

Like she said, worship a rock if you want to, just dont throw it at me.

that mental raving islamic in the second clip is just like abu.
harkens back to history many undreds of years ago, takes the underdog status and wants to stop our freedom of speech.

She does the right thing by waiting for his ranting to stop.
Impossible to act with reason against an unreasonable person.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 25^th, 2009 at 8:37am:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HE-ejGWTUMY&feature=related That is the youtube link Yadda, should play on any machine. This is a clip from back in august 2006, so you may have seen it before, she basically says to stop calling it a clash of religion, or civilisations, as it is more a clash of civilisation versus backwardness, a clash of mentalities, modern versus medieval, etc. She has a few videos up, debates with clerics, interviews etc.

Thanks moz.

Yes, if it is an old one, i may have seen this vid before.

I already have 5 Wafa Sultan YT videos on my HD.

Wafa Sultan is awesome.




Keep safe Wafa.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 10:12am:

that mental raving islamic in the second clip is just like abu. harkens back to history many undreds of years ago, takes the underdog status and wants to stop our freedom of speech. She does the right thing by waiting for his ranting to stop. Impossible to act with reason against an unreasonable person.

sprint,

Every one who needs to counter the "ISLAM is tolerant" lie , should view this [below] YOUTUBE video.

This sheik is insane / irrational.

That is what ISLAM produces in men, madness and irrationality.

A harsh assessment / assertion?

Before you censor me Gaybriel,....

Listen to the words of this sheik.




Non-Muslims allowed to perform their religion
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg


While you watch this YOUTUBE video, just bear in mind the claim made in this Koran verse [below]


"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

This Koran verse is so often promoted by muslims, to non-muslims, to prove and insist that ISLAM is tolerant.

This video exposes these claims of 'tolerance' as just another lie, which is being perpetrated upon non-muslims.




+++++++++




ISLAM in the West insists that it is tolerant of other cultures/religion.

ISLAM's intolerance in all Sharia jurisdictions, PROVES the LIE that ISLAM is tolerant of other cultures/religion.




TRUE ISLAM?

Take a lesson from the words of Abraham Lincoln,


"If you want to know a man's character, give him power."
Abraham Lincoln

You right of course, Muslims kill Muslims everyday, so what chance do the rest of us have.

Unfortunately, this woman will remain in very real danger from Islamists, because she challenges aspects of Islamic teaching, and the fact that so many muslims are not appalled enough by that sort of behaviour, to actually speak up for the rights of others to hold differing opinions, displays how very far Islam has to come, before it could fairly be called, tolerant, or peaceful.

The petulant vitriol unleashed at anyone who does not accept Islam, as it wants to try and portray itself, is indicative of a terrible immaturity, and insecurity, which only the muslim ummah can hope to change.

One would think if they were ever going to change they would have done it by now...  after all they have had a very long time to contemplate it and do it.

Yes, I would have liked to have seen greater progress too, grendel, but I always live in hope, that our shared humanity, will eventually outweigh any religious differences.

I hope that common ground will help those who demonise all muslims to recognise the unfairness of that stance, and I hope the muslims who vilify everything western will eventually recognise the futility of that direction, and I hope that the vast majority, who do not fit into either of these extremes, can start a better dialogue, which will see a more secular, humanist approach adopted by that majority.

Well if the "moderates" on here are anything to go by I won't be holding my breathe.  

The first thing they need to do is repudiate the idea of an islamic world... for ever.

It took the Christian church centuries to cede it's control over government to more appropriate mechanisms. This is now happening relatively quickly in the middle east.

LOL
Are you saying the Muslism haven't had centuries to reform?

Sure they have. They are in the process of it. Have you noticed that even though conservative Muslims such as Abu claim that a new caliphate is a genuine goal for Muslims around the world, Muslims have totally failed to act on this, even when given demcoracy, and even where muslims are the overwhelming majority? I would only place them a century behind the west.

Well give iran the bomb and you can do a lot of damage in a century.  Even without it "they" are doing a lot of damage.
Where is the push for reformation?  there is none.

I'd say that the push for reform will come from the groundswell of ordinary people in Iran. Those heavy metal bands, and the female skier who had to leave Iran to pursue her career, among others. There is still quite a moderate influence from France in Tehran. Women still buy expensive perfumes, lipstick and luxury goods.

It's sad to see Iran so repressed in a way, because the Persians are among the most interesting people in the Muslim world. Iranian women are also legendary for their beauty. They have class. Compare them to Iraqis and there is just no comparison.

I agree with Freediver that the Muslims you talk to here are more than a bit conservative compared to the version of Islam that I saw in many countries. I just wonder if it's a question of the new conversions on the block having to prove themselves? That has to elicit a response   :)

I agree with your ethnic summation...  but islam as it stands in Iran is a problem and it doesn't look like there will be any reform coming from there anytime soon if at all.

Politics is highly non-linear Grendel. Change tends to be sudden rather than gradual.

Sudden change usually fails..
Revolution can seem sudden but if it is to succedd it needs a long time in the planning.  Unfortunately against a closed state it cannot succeed without much bloodshed.

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 3:34pm:

It took the Christian church centuries to cede it's control over government to more appropriate mechanisms. This is now happening relatively quickly in the middle east.

No ruling class or organisation willingly gives up power. Real power is taken, not given.

Christian denominations didn't cede control of a state willingly, it was all ripped from the fists of clerics through force of arms and/or disestablishment by secularists. The Vatican remained brooding and embittered for decades by the forced ceding of the Papal States. Even today I'm sure the Anglican Church would fight hard to remain established in Britain.

As for Islamism, it has to be resisted on every front so that it rots from the inside out.

Grendel wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 5:24pm:

Sudden change usually fails.. Revolution can seem sudden but if it is to succedd it needs a long time in the planning.  Unfortunately against a closed state it cannot succeed without much bloodshed.

True. The revolutionary act may be sudden but it is the result of years or decades of internal strife that has reached a critical mass.

pope urban 2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 12:41pm:

You right of course, Muslims kill Muslims everyday, so what chance do the rest of us have.

so? atheists kill atheists every day, christians kill christians etc etc- but I don't see you attributing any significance to that

You are behaving like an apologist again.

grendel - she deliberately completely misses the point and is deflecting unsuccessfully.


gaybriel - I ask you to delete your offtopic deflective comment.

it's not about apologising for anything, it's about people attributing significance to the actions of one group of people yet when they see the same behaviour replicated in another group of people they see nothing of significance

it's just double standards straight out.

my comment has no reflection upon the actions of the original group of people in question and how I regard that behaviour- it merely reflects on the inanity of said statement

So where is the double standard again?

It is well know that Muslim terrorists kill more muslims than NON-Muslims.

Now in what context is that equivalent in Christian society?

the double standard is when people say "muslims kill muslims" like it's some kind of proof that muslims are so barbaric as to kill others who belong to their own religion

but then this conclusion is not drawn when you see conflicts and killings within other religious groups, nations, races

No it's just pointing out the fact that they do...  remember what was happening in Iraq.  

I remember a while back discussing it and the dogma preached that death for Allah (martyrdom) was good and all tied up with the virgin thing and that any Muslims who died in this act went straight to heaven as innocents killed in the name of Allah or some such baloney.  If I get a chance I'll look it up but it was just justifying the act.  

Sunnis kill Shiites.  Shiites kill Sunnis.  Everyone kills Sufis and Wahabists kill everyone.

A nation is not a religion.
A race is not a religion.
Only in Islam do nation and religion exist as one.  Only Islam have "religious" states.  They do not have secularism in most Islamic states.

Grendel wrote on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

.....A nation is not a religion. A race is not a religion. Only in Islam do nation and religion exist as one.  Only Islam have "religious" states.  They do not have secularism in most Islamic states.

Turkey has been semi-secular for many decades.

But Turkey has recently acquired a new PM,
......who is an avowed ISLAMIST.

Will Turkey remain secular for much longer???

Who knows.

But some old quotes, attributed to Turkey's present PM are revealing.


Turkish PM Erdogan in 1990s said,
TURKEY'S CONSTITUTION "A HUGE LIE";
"ONE CANNOT BE A MUSLIM AND SECULAR"

I think that last quote clearly says it all really.


MEMRI = Middle East news service [translated to English]

May 23, 2007
Turkish PM Erdogan in Speech During Term As Istanbul Mayor Attacks Turkey's Constitution, Describing it As ‘A Huge Lie': ‘Sovereignty Belongs Unconditionally and Always To Allah'; ‘One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD159607




Would Wafa Sultan be safe in Turkey today?