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Message started by freediver on Feb 8th, 2009 at 1:14pm

Title: requirements for prayer
Post by freediver on Feb 8th, 2009 at 1:14pm
What are Muslims required to do before praying?

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 9th, 2009 at 10:01am

Can you be a little more specific?

Question is a little vague, although it does sound like you have a certain thing in mind, and are just trying to confirm it... how about being honest and just asking "Do Muslims do X before praying"?

The major thing which precedes prayer is ablution... is this what you're referring to?

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by freediver on Feb 9th, 2009 at 10:18am
Yes, ablution. What is it? What else are they required to do?

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 9th, 2009 at 8:15pm
You don't know what ablution is?

There's a fairly detailed Wiki article that describes ablutions and their place in all major world religions, including Islam.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by freediver on Feb 10th, 2009 at 12:58pm
So what do they do if there is no convenient place to wash their feet?

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 10th, 2009 at 8:51pm

In the case water is unavailable then dry ablutions may be performed instead.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by freediver on Feb 10th, 2009 at 9:01pm
Sand or dust? I wasn't talking about being stuck in the desert Abu. Most modern facilities are designed for washing the hands. Not very convenient for foot washing.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 10th, 2009 at 9:14pm

Well, it doesn't mean immersion, you simply put a bit of water on your hands and then rub it over your feet. Although some people do put their feet in the basin (if they're quite acrobatically inclined), this part was correct from Calanen's post.

There's also the dispensation of wiping over socks or shoes.

I remember someone telling me a funny story once about when he was making wudhu in a work washroom, and a non-Muslim colleague questioned him about putting his "dirty feet in the basin", to which he replied: "how many times a day do you wash your hands?" and the colleague said: "2 or 3 times", to which the Muslim replied "Well I wash my feet more than 5 times, so I should be more rightly disgusted about having to wash my nice clean feet in the same place as your filthy hands" ;D

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by freediver on Feb 10th, 2009 at 9:23pm

Quote:
Well, it doesn't mean immersion, you simply put a bit of water on your hands and then rub it over your feet.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudu

It's not sufficient for one to pass wet hand over the feet or shoes.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 10th, 2009 at 9:59pm

There's difference of opinion.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by freediver on Feb 11th, 2009 at 11:33am
So Muslims will go into a public toilet, wet their hands, then wipe their wet hands over their feet? And others will stick their feet in the sink?

I'm surprised this is the first I've heard about it. You'd think they'd just figure out where all the hose type taps are.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by Calanen on Feb 11th, 2009 at 11:36am

freediver wrote on Feb 11th, 2009 at 11:33am:
So Muslims will go into a public toilet, wet their hands, then wipe their wet hands over their feet? And others will stick their feet in the sink?

I'm surprised this is the first I've heard about it. You'd think they'd just figure out where all the hose type taps are.


Not just their feet.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by freediver on Feb 11th, 2009 at 11:36am
Their ears as well?

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by mozzaok on Mar 11th, 2009 at 7:57am

Quote:
There's difference of opinion.
-Abu

And in this instance would those differences be between the truth, and your obfuscation?

If you believe that certain, bizarre, rituals are indeed a command from your god, whom you place above all others, then why do muslims seem so embarrassed to admit adhering to them?

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 11th, 2009 at 8:26am
mozzaok,

I'm not really sure exactly what you mean by that post.

Can you clarify a bit more exactly what you mean?

Wudhu (ablutions) are most definitely a part of Islam, as they are of most religions. No embarressment about admitting to adhering to it here.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by jordan484 on Mar 11th, 2009 at 12:06pm
I would have an issue with someone putting their feet in a wash basin. If it was meant for feet, then it would be on the ground.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by mozzaok on Mar 12th, 2009 at 9:01pm

Quote:
Wudhu (ablutions) are most definitely a part of Islam, as they are of most religions. No embarressment about admitting to adhering to it here.
 -Abu

Well Abu, it does raise lots of speculation amongst non-muslims, and your obvious reticence, to spell out in detail, exactly what is the prescribed ritual, is understandable, but frustrating also.

The reticence, we can assume, is due to the fact that so many are just looking for some more things to ridicule Islam over.
There curiosity starts and finishes from the uncharitable aspect of seeking to demean, and you could well ask yourself why would you wish to indulge such shallow, and base intentions?

I think the answer, Abu, lies in the fact that, for you, and the many millions more like you, the ritual does have a spiritual significance, that overrides those petty snipes, and in openly embracing it, you display, quite honestly, and proudly, that it is all a part of the rituals that help you to establish your personal spirituality, and as such, something you respect, cherish, and hold dear.

So, for the sake of clearing up the misconceptions, and to remove the opportunity for some, to create false impressions, if you could lay out the full ritual for cleansing before prayers, then we should hope to be able to leave it there, and even the critics will have to respect the honesty of your answer.

Mind you, if you do not want to, that is your choice, but I fear the speculation will probably continue, and grow wilder still, if you choose not to clear up the misconceptions now.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 13th, 2009 at 9:09am
mozza,

I already provided a link to detailed information about ablutions in all major world religions, and here's one that describes specifically Islamic ablutions in great detail. If you're sincerely interested, read it, if you don't understand anything, feel free to ask.

You're right though, I'm not particularly interested in discussing it with those whose intention is to mock and even invent false characteristics about Islamic purification rituals. Nor do I think it's as important to dispel their obvious lies as you seem to.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by mozzaok on Mar 13th, 2009 at 10:40am
What link Abu?

I only saw the link to the wikipedia site, for ritual purification, which does not go into any detail.
So far we have had people claiming you must shave off your body hair, that you must wash your genitals, etc. and those are the sorts of things that I was hoping would be clarified.

So if you could repost the link for the detailed description, that would be good.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 13th, 2009 at 11:58am

Quote:
What link Abu?


I just gave you a link in my last post. Please look again.


Quote:
So far we have had people claiming you must shave off your body hair


That's got nothing at all to do with requirements for prayer. Different issue. Shaving of pubic and underarm hair is indeed a part of Islam, and this has been discussed before.


Quote:
that you must wash your genitals


You must wash your genitals when having a shower (as I'd assume any half sane culture would also advise) but again, nothing to do with requirements for prayer.


Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by jordan484 on Mar 13th, 2009 at 12:49pm
You need your religion to tell you to wash your genitals when you shower? Really. There's no independent thought at all, is there?

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 13th, 2009 at 3:31pm
Although it might occur to a lot of people, to some it would not.

Remember also, that in that time, many cultures barely bathed at all.

Also in the west most people don't even wash their hands after using the toilet  let alone their genitals (ie. when filth is actually being outlet from them)

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by jordan484 on Mar 13th, 2009 at 4:09pm
Oh please, you're full of crap, abu. Most people in the west don't wash their hands after using the toilet? You'd have to be kidding me! Way to generalise.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 13th, 2009 at 4:31pm

I've worked in a lot of offices and other places, and observed. I noticed this actually from a young age. The vast majority simply do not wash their hands. You can deny it all you like, but it's a fact.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 13th, 2009 at 4:47pm
Here's an interesting study:


Quote:
In an observational study of 200 people washing their hands in the public toilets of a food hall carried out on 11 October 2002 only 20% of females and 7% of males observed used the correct procedure of washing their hands for at least 10 seconds, rubbing soap all over their hands, rinsing and drying for 10 seconds with a clean towel or 20 seconds with a hand dryer. 8% of females and 29% of males failed to wash their hands at all after going to the toilet.


93% of males don't wash their hands properly, and almost 30% don't even wash at all.

Title: Re: requirements for prayer
Post by jordan484 on Mar 13th, 2009 at 8:06pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 13th, 2009 at 4:31pm:
I've worked in a lot of offices and other places, and observed. I noticed this actually from a young age. The vast majority simply do not wash their hands. You can deny it all you like, but it's a fact.

Simply because you may have observed something through your tainted eyes, does not make it a fact.

Fact.

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