Those are the words of a muslim, Anwar Malek.



There are honourable men among the muslims.

Algerian author Anwar Malek is one.




The Arabs Have Lost Their Worth, Their Humanity, and Their Culture
"....Look at how the Arabs live in the West. By Allah, they are a bad example. If you hear about thieves – they are always Arabs. Whenever a young man harasses a girl on the streets of London or Paris, he turns out to be an Arab. All the negative moral values are to be found in the Arab individual."
Anwar Malek -  Algerian Author


memri transcript
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2063.htm

memri clip
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2063.htmi
"....Look at how the Arabs live in the West. By Allah, they are a bad example."
Anwar Malek -  Algerian Author

September 30, 2007
Mothers of prevention
Schoolgirls in Lancashire and Yorkshire are falling prey to sinister gangs of pimps. Two men have been sent to jail, but the girls’ mothers, not the police, are at the forefront of the crackdown. Why are the authorities so reluctant to get involved?
"....the gangs are largely made up of men from the Pakistani Muslim communities,"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2538090.ece


COMMENT NEWS STORY ABOVE....
Note that, there is no apparent or reported outrage at this conduct [conduct by muslims], by the 'righteous' segment of muslim community.

Was there any cry from the muslim community of,
......"These are 'honour' crimes, against our dignity!"
.....from anyone in the muslim community [at the exploitation of these young Anglo girls - by muslim men]?

No.

Are there any street protests by muslim women, against this disgusting conduct, by some members of the 'sacred' muslim community?

Apparently no

In fact, when was the last time you can remember any expression of muslim community outrage at the conduct of,     ....any muslims, anywhere in the world?

Contrawise, can you imagine the outcry from the muslim community, if these circumstances were reversed?

What would be the reaction of muslims, if Anglo's in the UK [or 'unbelievers' in a Sharia jurisdiction], were pimping young muslim girls?i


"....Whenever a young man harasses a girl on the streets of London or Paris, he turns out to be an Arab."
Anwar Malek -  Algerian Author

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Media/Homepage/rape9.gif
source of image....

To Rape an Unveiled Woman        
By Jamie Glazov
March 07, 2006
A Muslim rape epidemic in sweeping over Europe
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=473928E3-18E1-4E4E-ADF6-1AD796E3D400






++++++++++






Proverbs 8:7
For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.


Psalms 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.




Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

ISLAM is pure evil.

And we in the West, should totally separate ourselves from it.

And if we do not separate ourselves from ISLAM?

Then do not complain about the curse, which we bring down, upon our own heads.







Isaiah 26:10
Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
11  LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.


Isaiah 2:11
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


Psalms 52:1
Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.
2  Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
3  Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.


Psalms 9:16
The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

http://cdn.nextsmallthings.com/coolchaser.com/thumb-12860167.jpg
I envy The Arab countries. They have more national unity, less crime, less pollution, and generaly lead less stressful, meaningless lives...

We in the west just demonize them because our culture is so buggered up. I mean look at that "raped woman" photo. It's so fricking fake! Blood doesn't run like that!

You look at western vs middle-eastern culture objectively.

Arab: We can marry children in our country if the parents permit it. We teach our children from a young age that marriage is spiritualy, financialy, and emotionaly fulfilling. To respect your body and your mind, and to try and be a good husband/wife when Allah feels the time is right for you...

Whitey: You savage! Marrying children! In this country we teach kids that marriage is way too much responsibility! That's why we just throw condoms and sex education at them. We can't trust their parents to teach them poo! And if they get pregnant, they can just get an abortion! Hooray! We love kids so much we keep them ignorant and or kill them!

Arab: I love my wife. Yes, I know it doesn't seem that way because I have seven of them. But I covet each and every one of them. They complete me, and my family.

Whitey: Polygamy is WRONG! Group sex is COOL! We have principles in this country and protect the sanctity of marriage while just smacking anything that moves cause it's all about freedom baby! Jimmy Hendrix!

Arab: I believe that before we consider any legislation. We should consider deeply what Mohammad would do in our situation, and I keep the Koran close to my heart.

Whitey: What's with all this stuff about God?! God has no place in the law! Only as a tool to make you look like a pretencious bugger! I let people be depraved sexual monsters, who abort their kids, shootup heroine, and piss away their money.. But I'm a good Christian cause I say I am!

Fair enough, but many Arab women are in marriage situations against their will.

In the west, the media teaches women to aspire to a "Sex in the city" lifestyle and makes it profitable to divorce.
We had a much better balance before women got sucked into believing that being a dumb slutty obese money grabbing cow earns respect.

I suggest you migrate Jim....  we'll be happy you'll be happy...  win win.

If you are still alive in 10 years give us a hoy.

This will be another case of, "These people [discovered/exposed miscreants] aren't real moslems."




http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/ne/pressass/20090527/18/897756901-hamza-s-sons-admit-luxury-car-scam.jpg

2009-05-28
Hamza's sons admit luxury car scam
Three sons of jailed cleric Abu Hamza exploited a loophole in the vehicle registration system to carry out a "sophisticated" £1 million luxury car scam, a court has been told.
....Pretending the vehicles were theirs, they tricked the DVLA into transferring ownership to an alias and sending new log books to front addresses.
Keys were then obtained from dealers and the cars stolen, London's Southwark Crown Court heard. The final stage involved selling them to unsuspecting buyers or using them as collateral to take out loans which they never repaid.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090527/tuk-hamza-s-sons-admit-luxury-car-scam-6323e80.html




"Why do you non-moslems disrespect us moslems / ISLAM!
....When we are the religion of peace.
....When we are a tolerant religion."





THE SPIN.
Devout moslems will always insist, that moslems are good citizens and that they always obey the laws of host countries.



THE TRUTH
Devout moslems are always good citizens, except when they aren't.
Devout moslems always obey local laws, except when they don't.

"except when they aren't/don't." = = On those occasions, when the TRUTH is exposed, we see real ISLAM / moslems for what they truly are. We are never told, how devout moslems are TAUGHT, by their 'religion', to engage with non-moslem communities. i.e. With lies, deception, and violence.


THE TRUTH
All compacts with non-moslem communities are a facade, and such compacts need only be honoured while the non-moslems are watching, and until non-moslem institutions and laws can be swept away.

Dictionary,
compact2 = =
· n. a formal agreement or contract between two or more parties.
· v. make or enter into (a formal agreement).

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2009 at 9:53am:

Those are the words of a muslim, Anwar Malek. There are honourable men among the muslims. Algerian author Anwar Malek is one. The Arabs Have Lost Their Worth, Their Humanity, and Their Culture "....Look at how the Arabs live in the West. By Allah, they are a bad example. If you hear about thieves – they are always Arabs. Whenever a young man harasses a girl on the streets of London or Paris, he turns out to be an Arab. All the negative moral values are to be found in the Arab individual." Anwar Malek -  Algerian Author memri transcript http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2063.htm memri clip http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2063.htmi "....Look at how the Arabs live in the West. By Allah, they are a bad example." Anwar Malek -  Algerian Author September 30, 2007 Mothers of prevention Schoolgirls in Lancashire and Yorkshire are falling prey to sinister gangs of pimps. Two men have been sent to jail, but the girls’ mothers, not the police, are at the forefront of the crackdown. Why are the authorities so reluctant to get involved? "....the gangs are largely made up of men from the Pakistani Muslim communities," http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2538090.ece COMMENT NEWS STORY ABOVE.... Note that, there is no apparent or reported outrage at this conduct [conduct by muslims], by the 'righteous' segment of muslim community. Was there any cry from the muslim community of, ......"These are 'honour' crimes, against our dignity!" .....from anyone in the muslim community [at the exploitation of these young Anglo girls - by muslim men]? No. Are there any street protests by muslim women, against this disgusting conduct, by some members of the 'sacred' muslim community? Apparently no In fact, when was the last time you can remember any expression of muslim community outrage at the conduct of,     ....any muslims, anywhere in the world? Contrawise, can you imagine the outcry from the muslim community, if these circumstances were reversed? What would be the reaction of muslims, if Anglo's in the UK [or 'unbelievers' in a Sharia jurisdiction], were pimping young muslim girls?i "....Whenever a young man harasses a girl on the streets of London or Paris, he turns out to be an Arab." Anwar Malek -  Algerian Author http://www.frontpagemag.com/Media/Homepage/rape9.gif source of image.... To Rape an Unveiled Woman         By Jamie Glazov March 07, 2006 A Muslim rape epidemic in sweeping over Europe http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=473928E3-18E1-4E4E-ADF6-1AD796E3D400 ++++++++++ Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. Psalms 28:3 Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts. Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

Seeing as tho you feel so strong about it yadda
i assume you have already organised protests up at Kings Cross against all the christian pimps, when is it happening? or are you just another bible bashing Muslim hating hypocrite?

wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 11:40am:

Seeing as tho you feel so strong about it yadda i assume you have already organised protests up at Kings Cross against all the christian pimps, when is it happening? or are you just another bible bashing Muslim hating hypocrite?

skip,

I didn't hear those ppl up at Kings Cross claiming to be, 'the best of people'.

If you asked them, some of them would likely 'fess up, and even admit they were pimps.



What about the moslem community skip?






skip,

Since we are talking about 'hypocrites'.

We Christians do not claim to be perfect people.

But devout moslems do.

Devout moslems, make the claim that moselms have been blessed with their 'perfection' by Allah himself.

This is a claim based on 'infallible' ISLAMIC religious texts....



"Ye [muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.110







Quote:

. EXAMPLES OF 'PROPER' CONDUCT FROM ALLAH'S FINEST .....FROM THE UK [that bastion of 'Christianity']..... 'Perfect' muslims being an example, of 'perfected' conduct, to the misguided Kuffar. /sarc off March 27, 2009 More Muslim Pedophiles Arrested in Britain AND..... This timesonline article, a very sad and disturbing story of predatory 'grooming' [of young white school girls in the UK] by 'Asian' [i.e. muslim] pimping gangs. September 30, 2007 Schoolgirls in Lancashire and Yorkshire are falling prey to sinister gangs of pimps. "....the gangs are largely made up of men from the Pakistani Muslim communities," .

at...
"Italian 'Fritzl' and son arrested"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238193124/10#10

So you've done sweet fa in your own backyard yet bitch about the behaviour of others purely because of their religion.
When are you going to protest about the Christian pimps and drug pushers yadda? you know, the ones in your own backyard.

Yes Yadda, there are some honourable persons among muslims. There are even some honourable persons among atheists on this forum, for example Calanen.

tallowood wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 8:02pm:

Yes Yadda, there are some honourable persons among muslims. There are even some honourable persons among atheists on this forum, for example Calanen.

What about agnostics - can they be honourable?  :)

mantra wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 8:28pm:

tallowood wrote on May 28th, 2009 at 8:02pm: Yes Yadda, there are some honourable persons among muslims. There are even some honourable persons among atheists on this forum, for example Calanen. What about agnostics - can they be honourable?  :)

I can't recall any serious agnostic mass murderer  :)

Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, ::), but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should.

mantra wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:21pm:

Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, ::), but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should.

There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath.

tallowood wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:31pm:

There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath.

I'm sure you don't mean to sound like a snob Tallow - but your post reads as though you believe Christians are far more superior than their atheist brothers and you're even lumping them in with your dreaded enemies - the Muslims.

Yes - it's wonderful that you have your faith, but those who don't or aren't of the same faith - are not less worthy.

mantra wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:38pm:

tallowood wrote on May 28th, 2009 at 9:31pm: There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath. I'm sure you don't mean to sound like a snob Tallow - but your post reads as though you believe Christians are far more superior than their atheist brothers and you're even lumping them in with your dreaded enemies - the Muslims. Yes - it's wonderful that you have your faith, but those who don't or aren't of the same faith - are not less worthy.

I'am not a snob or a judge but only an observer.
My observation of history of religions tells me that christianity is more mature then islam or atheism.

tallowood wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:31pm:

mantra wrote on May 28th, 2009 at 9:21pm: Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, ::), but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should. There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath.

The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations. They are both pedestrian rationalists. Islam circuscribes everything with a narrow concept of 'submission' to the rules as comrehended in Araby in the 7th century. Atheism equates the limits of reason with the limits of the universe. Both are parochial and unimaginative.

The unimaginativeness of athesim, by the way, was the final trump card Tolkien offered CS Lewis (an atheist until then) after years of evening walks and discussion in Oxford; an argument that finally convinced Lewis, a professor of literature, to consider the alternative to atheism. It is a trump card not for religon but for an opening of a parcochial mind.  

Soren wrote on May 29^th, 2009 at 8:14pm:

tallowood wrote on May 28th, 2009 at 9:31pm: mantra wrote on May 28th, 2009 at 9:21pm: Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, ::), but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should. There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath. The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations. They are both pedestrian rationalists. Islam circuscribes everything with a narrow concept of 'submission' to the rules as comrehended in Araby in the 7th century. Atheism equates the limits of reason with the limits of the universe. Both are parochial and unimaginative. The unimaginativeness of athesim, by the way, was the final trump card Tolkien offered CS Lewis (an atheist until then) after years of evening walks and discussion in Oxford; an argument that finally convinced Lewis, a professor of literature, to consider the alternative to atheism. It is a trump card not for religon but for an opening of a parcochial mind.

More bible bashing by the retard, whats this got to do with Arabs? Why are so many christians dickheads?.

wrote on May 30^th, 2009 at 1:01pm:

Soren wrote on May 29th, 2009 at 8:14pm: tallowood wrote on May 28th, 2009 at 9:31pm: mantra wrote on May 28th, 2009 at 9:21pm: Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, ::), but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should. There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath. The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations. They are both pedestrian rationalists. Islam circuscribes everything with a narrow concept of 'submission' to the rules as comrehended in Araby in the 7th century. Atheism equates the limits of reason with the limits of the universe. Both are parochial and unimaginative. The unimaginativeness of athesim, by the way, was the final trump card Tolkien offered CS Lewis (an atheist until then) after years of evening walks and discussion in Oxford; an argument that finally convinced Lewis, a professor of literature, to consider the alternative to atheism. It is a trump card not for religon but for an opening of a parcochial mind.   More bible bashing by the retard, whats this got to do with Arabs? Why are so many christians dickheads?.

Whoosh!!!


(as usual, Mr Whooosh!)

Quote:

The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations.

There is nothing comparable between atheism and muslims. Atheists just do not believe in God. Muslims are nut jobs who believe their god says they have to headbutt the carpet five days a day, blow people up and take over the world.

Why should anyone believe in God? Is it a safety in numbers thing? I don't care what you believe as long as your wacky beliefs about imaginary deities stay out of the classrooms, courts and government.

Two 'religions' concern me -Islam and Scientology. Luckily there are not many scientologists for it to be a problem. Islam is a big problem as a political religion, which is really a large supremacist political party organised under religious lines and enforced with extreme violence.

So what if Tolkein convinced CS Lewis or vice versa to be religious. I'm not religious, and I don't care if you are. If you want to debate the facts and evidence supporting a supreme being, its not a debate you can ever win. If you just want to believe in something without any facts or evidence to support it - go for your life. Could care less.

See, this is exactly why I far prefer to chat with athiests over agnostics.

Athiests have made a definite decision, agnostics are indecisive.

Calanen wrote on May 30^th, 2009 at 8:08pm:

Quote: The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations. There is nothing comparable between atheism and muslims. Atheists just do not believe in God. Muslims are nut jobs who believe their god says they have to headbutt the carpet five days a day, blow people up and take over the world. Why should anyone believe in God? Is it a safety in numbers thing? I don't care what you believe as long as your wacky beliefs about imaginary deities stay out of the classrooms, courts and government. Two 'religions' concern me -Islam and Scientology. Luckily there are not many scientologists for it to be a problem. Islam is a big problem as a political religion, which is really a large supremacist political party organised under religious lines and enforced with extreme violence. So what if Tolkein convinced CS Lewis or vice versa to be religious. I'm not religious, and I don't care if you are. If you want to debate the facts and evidence supporting a supreme being, its not a debate you can ever win. If you just want to believe in something without any facts or evidence to support it - go for your life. Could care less.

The debate is not with me. You don't have to beleve anything. Religion is not a numbers thing.

Reason has recognisded its limits since the late 18th century. 'God' is the ideas one has when the mind, the self, the conscious being, extends beyond those limits. Nothing positive (posited) can be said about god. That does not mean that there is nothing beyond the recognised boundaries of reasoning that the living, conscious self cannot go to.

On a practical level, the hopes, hates, fears and loves of all who went before us cannot be dismissed as delusions, lest our own hopes and hates and the rest are also dismissed. Life is an uncertain and therefore anxious business. We recognise that anxiety in one another. God is in the shock of recognition in a poem or a wordless piece of music. God is where it all falls away and you are, for a moment, stunned by the fact that you exist - and that you are, in that moment, comprehending your very own stunned being.

Is that then a bearded old fellow? Of course not. Does that moment signal to you a singular binding to all the living and all who ever lived? Of course. Is that God?
Well,  I can't say it isn't. But who can?

You can be agnostic about all this. To be an atheist is to assert a certitude you have no power to assert. Only a fool would declare the limits of his wits to be the limits of the world.

As to muslms and atheists, they share a stubborn equation of the limits of their wits with the limts of the world. That is what I mean by their unreasonable ratonalism.

Be a secularist, be an agnostic and I will say you are reasonable. Be an atheist and I will say that you have let the cart run away with you, you have succumbed to boastfulness.i

soren - I think I see your point of view.
An athiests ideology presumes that there is no god, hence man made man where we are now?
So, sure, that is somewhat boastful.

I well have time for athiests on a completley different level, they just call it as they see it.
Generally athiests really don't care what other people believe, long as it does not impede their democratic secular rights. Which I fully agree with.

Atheism is not simply being anti-theocratic. That is secularism and that is what I am., a secularist. Whether I believe in god or not is neither here nor there as far as secularism is concerned.

Atheism is a declaraton of certainty about something unknowable. It is no different in temperament and intellectual acuity than taking god to be a bearded old man. I think that many athesist are actually battling that particular vulgarity and so are caught up in and ensnared and self-defined by a vulgarity

.i

Quote:

You can be agnostic about all this. To be an atheist is to assert a certitude you have no power to assert. Only a fool would declare the limits of his wits to be the limits of the world.

To the extent that you can be certain about anything, you can be certain that there is no God. As stated above, you can say the same thing about Papa Smurf, Leprechans and the Flying Spaghetti Monster - that maybe somewhere in the universe they exist and because you cannot disprove they do, therefore they must.

This is the logical fallacy about God - you say because I cannot disprove the existence of God, there must be God. All I say is I do not believe in God. Nobody, can say, especially with the definition of reality potentially extending to multiverses and outside the prime material plane of existence that there is not a God somewhere.  I.E even if I could tour the entire universe and prove there was no God lurking anywhere, you would just say that God was somewhere outside the universe. And even if I could travel outside this universe to another universe, you would just say, no not THAT universe, God is in some other universe you cannot go to.

In this tiny planet, in the outer spiral arm of one of billions of galaxies, it is the height of arrogance to think that the machinations of Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha or whoever was the centre of creation, the universe, God and everything else. We are just a primitive group of bipeds that have not even mastered space flight - babbling on about all sorts of different religions that are just fantasy.  Modern religions are just slight variants of the worship of the mountain fire God or the golden idol. Stories for children or childlike adults.

There can be no absolute disproof of anything that we may conjure in our minds, that does not mean there is any facts or evidence upon which we can believe in its existence. The fact that people have conscious thought, hopes and dreams or whatever is not proof of God either - it is not even evidence in support of God.

What we have is some advanced ape derived creatures that wear clothes and drive cars, and think its really sad that they die so there just *must* be a magical heaven place where everyone goes to meet up after they turn into worm food. That is just superstitious nonsense for the weak minded, but I accept that most people are weak minded and need that nonsense to feel better about living in the world and being mortal. Dealing with death is not easy for many.

I don't of course need this crutch to lean on - facts and evidence is what I rely upon.

Disbelief in god would be easy and almost universal (given the lack of evidence) if we didn’t expect that god’s existence implied his capacity to prolong life, grant concessions, bestow favours, offer eternal life and intervene at one's behest through prayer. Were none of these the sine qua non for the implications of god’s existence, god would simply not exist, just as he doesn’t in Buddhism.

The primary need for positing god’s existence is the selfish craving for a guarantee of eternal life and/or endless temporal good health and fortune.

Calanen, it looks to me that you are thinking of and talking about a metaphysical god - an entity outside the world. Since we can only speak about the world, whatever we might say about a metaphysical god will turn out to be an unrecognised projection of this worldy experience and language. So in the sense that smurfs are examples of this fairytale metaphysical projecton, there is no such metaphysical god either. An antropomorphic god, like smurfs and leprachains, is no more than a metaphor, an illustration, a pinning down of an unfolding.
So there is no bearded bloke above the clouds.

Nevertheless, Being, existence, has been a question since the Greeks who concieved of it metaphysically, and remains a question even after metaphysics is dissolved with the critique of reason (that is, time, space, causality etc are recognised as categories of reason rather than qualities of the world). So how to orient ourselves towards the question of Being, after metaphysics? Heidegger has a good tip:

"Let me give a little hint on how to listen. The point is not to listen to a series of propositions, but rather to follow the movement of showing."

Soren wrote on May 30^th, 2009 at 10:57pm:

The debate is not with me. You don't have to beleve anything. Religion is not a numbers thing. Reason has recognisded its limits since the late 18th century. 'God' is the ideas one has when the mind, the self, the conscious being, extends beyond those limits. Nothing positive (posited) can be said about god. That does not mean that there is nothing beyond the recognised boundaries of reasoning that the living, conscious self cannot go to. On a practical level, the hopes, hates, fears and loves of all who went before us cannot be dismissed as delusions, lest our own hopes and hates and the rest are also dismissed. Life is an uncertain and therefore anxious business. We recognise that anxiety in one another. God is in the shock of recognition in a poem or a wordless piece of music. God is where it all falls away and you are, for a moment, stunned by the fact that you exist - and that you are, in that moment, comprehending your very own stunned being. Is that then a bearded old fellow? Of course not. Does that moment signal to you a singular binding to all the living and all who ever lived? Of course. Is that God? Well,  I can't say it isn't. But who can? You can be agnostic about all this. To be an atheist is to assert a certitude you have no power to assert. Only a fool would declare the limits of his wits to be the limits of the world. As to muslms and atheists, they share a stubborn equation of the limits of their wits with the limts of the world. That is what I mean by their unreasonable ratonalism. Be a secularist, be an agnostic and I will say you are reasonable. Be an atheist and I will say that you have let the cart run away with you, you have succumbed to boastfulness.

Wow!

Good.

A searcher on the path.




I would venture to declare that in this 'reality', we [can] know no absolutes.

To declare that we do [as atheists do], is indeed a 'boastfulness', and a demonstrated ignorance,
....of our own persistent ignorance.           ;D

'Rational' man [worldly man] is sooooo dumb, and yet, still so proud [of himself].

So proud, of the infinitesimal amount of knowledge, he has acquired and grasped hold of.

Too 'blind' and puffed up to see, that he knows virtually nothing, of his real circumstances.

Disbelief in atheism is easy for those who witnessed it as state religion.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 31^st, 2009 at 10:56am:

Disbelief in god would be easy and almost universal (given the lack of evidence) if we didn’t expect that god’s existence implied his capacity to prolong life, grant concessions, bestow favours, offer eternal life and intervene at one's behest through prayer. Were none of these the sine qua non for the implications of god’s existence, god would simply not exist, just as he doesn’t in Buddhism. The primary need for positing god’s existence is the selfish craving for a guarantee of eternal life and/or endless temporal good health and fortune.

if you looked at the history of philosophy (or any other human activity of the mind) you would see how adolsecent this stuff is.

Soren wrote on May 31^st, 2009 at 11:18am:

Calanen, it looks to me that you are thinking of and talking about a metaphysical god - an entity outside the world. Since we can only speak about the world, whatever we might say about a metaphysical god will turn out to be an unrecognised projection of this worldy experience and language. So in the sense that smurfs are examples of this fairytale metaphysical projecton, there is no such metaphysical god either. An antropomorphic god, like smurfs and leprachains, is no more than a metaphor, an illustration, a pinning down of an unfolding.

I am not speaking of any God at all, only the arguments used to support the existence of it or him. That is, because I cannot prove that there is no God in this world, therefore there must be one, which is fallacious reasoning. I was simply saying it would not end there, as because I could prove that there was no God in this world, religious types would simply say that the God was not in this universe, so ner.

We cannot know *anything* with absolute certainty, at least until it happens. That does not mean we can never know anything. One of the things, I do believe, is that the sun will come up tomorrow. I cannot know with absolute certainty that it will, but I believe it will on facts and evidence.

Similarly, with God, there are no facts and evidence which support his or its existence. What there is, is a whole host of different made up explanations to assuage the fear of death in a variety of cultures. The explanations differ because none of them were real and all of them were invented to meet the one human need - insecurity over death that arrives from self-awareness.  All I can say is - deal with it - there is no God and you may as well enjoy your life and stop worrying about it.



Quote:

Nevertheless, Being, existence, has been a question since the Greeks who concieved of it metaphysically, and remains a question even after metaphysics is dissolved with the critique of reason (that is, time, space, causality etc are recognised as categories of reason rather than qualities of the world). So how to orient ourselves towards the question of Being, after metaphysics? Heidegger has a good tip:[ "Let me give a little hint on how to listen. The point is not to listen to a series of propositions, but rather to follow the movement of showing."

Let's start with the Greeks. If we were in the time of the Peloppensian Wars, you would be saying 'Of COURSE there is a Zeus, and Athena! Heretic - you cannot prove there is no Zeus and Athena, so there must be one!

Jesus had not been born yet, neither had Mohammed. Zeus and Athena were the true Gods, along with all the others. But they were as made up as all the others. And in time, there will be more false prophets like Mohammed telling primitive people that God said he can have sex with 30 women and marry 14 including a 6 year old girl, or whatever, and they will be just as false.

Deceive yourself as much as you wish, but don't hassle everyone else about it.

Calanen wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 10:35am:

I am not speaking of any God at all, only the arguments used to support the existence of it or him. That is, because I cannot prove that there is no God in this world, therefore there must be one, which is fallacious reasoning.

Cal,

I completely agree with the logic of the proposition which you stated above.

What i am saying is that, perhaps the reasoning expressed above, is not the basis of the belief in God, for a lot of ppl,
......who do have a believe in the existence of [a] God?iQuote:

I was simply saying it would not end there, as because I could prove that there was no God in this world, religious types would simply say that the God was not in this universe, so ner. We cannot know *anything* with absolute certainty, at least until it happens. That does not mean we can never know anything. One of the things, I do believe, is that the sun will come up tomorrow. I cannot know with absolute certainty that it will, but I believe it will on facts and evidence. Similarly, with God, there are no facts and evidence which support his or its existence. What there is, is a whole host of different made up explanations to assuage the fear of death in a variety of cultures. The explanations differ because none of them were real and all of them were invented to meet the one human need - insecurity over death that arrives from self-awareness.  All I can say is - deal with it - there is no God and you may as well enjoy your life and stop worrying about it.

Cal,

It sounds to me, like you should be sponsoring advt's on the side of UK buses!          ;D


http://maxdunbar.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/atheist-bus.jpg


The Atheist Bus Campaign will soon run on buses across the UK capital with the slogan "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

at...
"All Aboard the Athiest bus"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225016818/0#0




hey cal, whatever spins your bus wheels!          ;)

Calanen wrote on May 31^st, 2009 at 10:29am:

[quote] What we have is some advanced ape derived creatures that wear clothes and drive cars, and think its really sad that they die so there just *must* be a magical heaven place where everyone goes to meet up after they turn into worm food. That is just superstitious nonsense for the weak minded, but I accept that most people are weak minded and need that nonsense to feel better about living in the world and being mortal. Dealing with death is not easy for many. I don't of course need this crutch to lean on - facts and evidence is what I rely upon.

Fact and evidence are not without moral dimension. What is more, the moral dimension is not inherent in the facts and evdence themselves but in you. That's the rub - no-one can wriggle out of the moral responsibility under the guise of relying only on facts and evidence. These, in themselves, are meanngless things and so you cannot rely on them without first facing up to your moral judgement.

Religion, of course, is not about death but life. It is about death only insofar as death is part of life - and it has never, ever been the other way around, life has never been about death. So that "crutch for the weak minded who are afraid of death" quip is baseless. Death is the end of your efforts - daily, hourly efforts - to comprehend the meanng of your life. In this, by the way, you utterly apart from the ape-like creature you allude to. What IS amazing is that despte our ape-like biology, how fantastically different we are from them. So you are not afrad of death because of what's on the 'other side' but because that is the end of all your efforts to make out a meanng for your life.

You are a moral creature, no matter what your ecclesiatical affiliation is or is not, which historical epoch you inhabit, what language you speak. How you make sense of that is your lifelong occupation. And you have to keeep your moral wits about you, as it were, because morality is in the actual encounter, not in the down-pat slogan or formulaton. It s in the actuaal encounter with actual people - and we all know how unpredcatble and eveer-changng that is.

And precisely because of the ever-changing, lived experience of your conscious moral agency, you cannot shove it all aside as some new-fangled sociological or socio-biological 'oh, it's just us being frigging apes in cars' reduction or some such nonsense.

When you recognise that you are not the only cosncious moral agent going around until the end of your days trying to live the good life in accordance with the standards (tested daily) of your concious moral agency - well, that's when you find yourself bound to others. And those standards and that moral agency - they are yours, uniquely, singularly, as they are inseparable from your life. And it aint' chemical, robotic, 'I'm just a car driving ape' fluff. Otherwise it would cost me only a bunch of bananas to get you on side about anything.

So we have to grant that you are free. Which you would not be if you were not a conscous moral agent but a mere ape-derived creature in a car with a tie on.
i

back to the topic.
this one courtesy of soren


Quote:

(IsraelNN.com) Members of the Egyptian Coptic diaspora urged American President Barack Obama to remember the Middle East's oppressed non-Muslim minorities during his upcoming trip to Cairo. Several members of the U.S. Congress echoed the Copts' concerns.   President Obama is slated to deliver what has been billed as a groundbreaking speech of reconciliation between the West and the Muslim world at Cairo University on June 4, 2009. Christian Copts of California (CCC), an organization representing expatriate Egyptians of the ancient Coptic minority, has written an urgent letter to the American leader reminding him that "reconciliation cannot be separated from reciprocation. The Islamic World must not demand from us that which they are unwilling to retune to us and to extend to their own citizens of other religious. I hope you help them understand reconciliation is a two-way street." In their letter, dated May 27, CCC acknowledged that the "Muslim World has been voicing feelings of grievances against the USA." While "it is crucial for the USA to listen to the Islamic World's point of view," writes Mounir Bishay, on behalf of the organization, "I hope somebody tells them it is equally crucial for them to listen to America's point of view. Historically the USA has done sufficient favors for the Muslim World to earn respect rather than such vehement hatred.Somebody needs to remind them the USA has been good to them. A large part of U.S. foreign aid has been going to Islamic countries."   Even the vast oil reserves enjoyed by the Arab Gulf States, the CCC letter notes, were only developed thanks to "American technologies and ingenuity" and that "the oil fields of the Gulf Islamic States would go unprotected from outside aggressors" without America. "Ironically, some of such are neighboring Muslim nations. Somebody needs to remind the Muslim World that polite reciprocity for generous kindnesses shown is supposedly an Islamic custom." Muslims in America, CCC continues, live with "no restrictions on their religious practices and they are free to expend efforts to convert as many Americans as they can to Islam. Mosques, Islamic centers and schools are freely built allover the country. Such freedoms are most definitely not offered to those of other faiths within the boundaries of the Islamic World."In Egypt "the capital of the Islamic World, where Mr. Obama has chosen to deliver his speech," CCC states, "Muslims seeking to convert to Christianity or to any other faith are not permitted to do so. Christians need presidential decrees to build new churches and governor's approval to repair existing ones. There have been instances where Christians were arrested for praying in their homes without a permit." Furthermore, the Coptic organization claims that there are quotas limiting the hiring of Christians in some professions in Egypt. As of this writing, Bishay told Israel National News, there has been no official response from the White House. Previously, American Copts also sent a letter to the Egyptian Ambassador to Washington, Sameh Shukri, demanding fair treatment for the Egyptian Coptic community. According to Jim Jacobson, president of Christian Freedom International, "When it comes to human rights and the treatment of minority Christians, Egypt has an extremely poor track record. The President should have a lot to talk about with Egyptian President Muhammad Hosni Mubarak, one of the longest-serving leaders in the Arab world. We hope he uses this as an opportunity to speak out for persecuted, minority Christians in Egypt." In Egypt, Islam, the official state religion, is the primary authority for legislation. Estimates of the number of Christians range from 10 to 15 million, out of a total of 79 million. Most Christian Egyptians are members of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which predates the Islamic conquest of the region by hundreds of years. Congressmen Also Step Up In a lengthy letter to President Obama, delivered May 28, ten members of the U.S. Congress also called on him to take a stand for minority rights in the Arab world. "The Middle East has historically been a place of religious pluralism and cultural diversity," the congresspeople claimed. "Please remind your audience that while the international community is committed to help Muslim minorities around the world, including those in India, Russia, China, and the West, at the same time we must ensure that all other minorities inside the 'Muslim world' are granted their basic rights." Turning to Obama's hosts for the June 4 speech, the congressional letter added, "We urge you to ask [your audience] to help Egypt fight the scourge of terrorism and stand by its own Coptic minority, often targeted by extremists' violence."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131661

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 8:25am:

back to the topic. this one courtesy of soren Quote: (IsraelNN.com) … Muslims in America, CCC continues, live with "no restrictions on their religious practices and they are free to expend efforts to convert as many Americans as they can to Islam. Mosques, Islamic centers and schools are freely built allover the country. Such freedoms are most definitely not offered to those of other faiths within the boundaries of the Islamic World."In Egypt "the capital of the Islamic World, where Mr. Obama has chosen to deliver his speech," CCC states, "Muslims seeking to convert to Christianity or to any other faith are not permitted to do so. Christians need presidential decrees to build new churches and governor's approval to repair existing ones. There have been instances where Christians were arrested for praying in their homes without a permit." Furthermore, the Coptic organization claims that there are quotas limiting the hiring of Christians in some professions in Egypt. … http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131661

Better late than never to come with legitimate complain regarding treatment of other faiths.

I wander if it doesn’t stop, shouldn’t we offer reciprocity too?