I'm sure the nay-sayers will carry on and pretend this is not an 'honour killing' but that's precisely what this is. A man killed his wife for having dishonoured him and slept with his friend. Just because it doesn't have all the cultural dress up and other hype surrounding it, makes it no different.

---

'Provoked' boat-sex killer jailed

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45991000/jpg/_45991462_007577561.jpg
William Cranston told the court he "lost his rag"

A man who stabbed his partner and his best friend to death after he found them having sex on his canal boat has been jailed for 12 years.

William Cranston was previously cleared of their murders but convicted of manslaughter, by reason of provocation.

The 44-year-old killed Kay Morton, 39, and Paul Wilkins, 55, on a narrow boat in Stoke Hammond, Buckinghamshire in September.

Cranston was sentenced to 12 years by a judge at Kingston Crown Court.

'Remorse genuine'

Judge Anthony Leonard QC told Cranston: "You are responsible for the deaths of two individuals who did not deserve to die at your hands.

"It was clear when you gave your evidence that you showed remorse for what you had done and I felt that the remorse was genuine.

"I take into account that you tried to administer first aid as they lay in the cabin."

But he said the 12 year sentence was a necessary reflection of the "seriousness" of the two killings, Cranston's "short fuse" and the "sustained" attack he inflicted on Mr Wilkins.

At Cranston's trial last month Reading Crown Court heard how he, Ms Morton and Mr Wilkins had been drinking at a nearby pub before returning to the narrow boat where they continued drinking and smoking cannabis.

Cranston went to bed but later woke up to find his partner and friend having sex.

'Lashed out'

He told police after the stabbings: "Paul jumped up and came towards me.

"I can't remember picking up the knife. When he came towards me, I just sort of lashed out to find out what was going on.

"Literally five seconds later, they were both on the floor bleeding to death, and I've got a knife in my hand."

The jury had been told Cranston's baby son, Kevin, had died the previous February on the sofa where he discovered the pair.

Cranston told the court: "I can't believe this has happened to everybody. I just walked in there and lost my rag completely."

Cranston, who was handed two 12-year jail terms to be served concurrently, will have time already spent in custody deducted from the sentence.

Source: BBC

CHRISTIAN HONOUR KILLING....  THERE IS NO SUCH THING.

How do you even know they guys a Christian?  :D

For a start Ben Booby Honour Killings are premeditated.  :D

You're an idiot abu.

It was a crime of passion.
Honour killings are planned, coldblooded and often involve other family members as co-murderers.
There was no religious bias to this.

Anyway, enough of the pleasantries, what did you think of the letter I wrote and sent ot the minister of immigration ?
So they can ban all islamics from coming here ?
I'll post it again for your response.

Take care

Grendel,


Quote:

CHRISTIAN HONOUR KILLING....  THERE IS NO SUCH THING.

Right and there's no such thing as a Muslim honour killing either.

In fact, the Bible is about the only book that even mentions killing for honour, the Islamic texts certainly do not.


Quote:

How do you even know they guys a Christian?

Same way you know "Muhammad" or "Ahmad" or "Jamal" is a Muslim if he killed his wife or daughter or whatever for committing a lewd adulterous action.


Quote:

For a start Ben Booby Honour Killings are premeditated.

Not true, many of them are done in fits of rage and jealousy, and often under the influence of alcohol... but they're good practising Muslims right? Because their name is Muhammad, they must be.

yOU ARE AN IDIOT.
PARANOID AND DELUSIONAL AND OBVIOUSLY BRAINWASHED.

dO YOU RECOGNISE THIS ABOUT YOURSELF?

I cant recall ever seeing an article headed Islamic Honour Killing...  even though it is true that honour killings do seem prevalent to people of that religion.  Perhaps that is where we and yourself find the connection.

As has been already pointed out to you several times...  an honour killing is different to the example you have posted.

In your sad pathetic attempts to always paint Christianity and its followers in a bad light you once again only show yourself to be delusional.

abu - thanks for highlighting this abhorrant behaviour of muslims.



Quote:

Honor is everything," says  Ahmed, a 52-year-old Palestinian Muslim. "If a person loses his honor, he becomes like an animal." The significance of honor among Muslims is complex, especially when compared to Western standards, but in the high-context, collectivist cultures of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, the inappropriate behavior of relatives brings shame to everyone in the extended family.      Palestinian communities are typically insular. Family members often remain in the same village or neighborhood for their entire lives.......................... ............. In the Palestinian communities of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Israel, and Jordan, women are executed in their homes, in open fields, and occasionally in public, sometimes before crowds of cheering onlookers. Honor killings account for virtually all of the murders of Palestinian women in these areas.      Honor killings occur for a variety of offenses, including allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, refusing an arranged marriage, attempting to obtain a divorce, or simply talking with a man. If a woman brings shame to the family, her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to kill her. "A woman shamed is like rotting flesh," a Palestinian merchant tells me. "If it is not cut away, it will consume the body. What I mean is the whole family will be tainted if she is not killed."      Among Arabs, marriage is traditionally a family affair, not a personal choice. Girls are often pressured into arranged marriages, while boys are not. "I was forced to marry my cousin," laments a young Palestinian woman. "I hated him. He beat me and humiliated me in front of his family and friends. But what could I do? If I had fled, I would have been killed."............

http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp


wadda goose.
no wonder you are a muslim, prefer to not make your own decisions , do we ?

wiki...


Quote:

Honor killing is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, where the murderers (and potentially the wider community) believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community. This perceived dishonor is normally the result of (a) utilizing dress codes unacceptable to the family or (b) engaging in certain sexual acts. These killings result from the perception that defense of honor justifies killing a person whose behavior dishonors their clan or family. Honor killing is mostly widespread in islamic countries or countries with predominantly Muslim population.[1]

Human Rights Watch defines "honor killings" as follows:


Quote:

Honor crimes are acts of violence, usually murder, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.[3]

Oh and in Turkey...  another Islamic country...  where they have moved against Honour Killings...  guess what...  HONOUR SUICIDES are on the rise.  That's where women are forced to kill themselves instead.  Nice little Islamic loophole hey.

Seriously Abu, that is a stretch for any logical person to accept.
It was a crime of passion, no more no less, and to try and pass honour killings as being in the same category, is either a sign that you are deluding yourself, or being less than honest.

I don;t agree abu, he could have been an atheist, rasta or a Raelian,it doesn't matter it was a crime of passion.
Don't let that deter you in the future tho, if you can find some real Christian honour murders I'd be only to happy to debate and highlight them.
I like to highlight the hypocrisy in all religions equally.

Here is an example of "honour" killing:


Quote:

On Thursday, a 20-year-old man stabbed his older sister several times with a kitchen knife and then smashed her head with a rock, an official and reports said. A criminal prosecutor working on the case said an autopsy was being carried out but the brother had confessed and had been taken into custody. According to the prosecutor, who wished to remain anonymous because he was not authorised to talk to the press, the woman had spent the last three months in Juwaidah prison for women fearing her life was in danger. “She had been living in difficult circumstances. Her parents separated 18 years ago. She had family problems and she stayed with her grandparents at her uncle’s house.” But reports said the woman, a mother of one, had “disappeared” from her house a month ago and that police had found her with a man in an apartment and had taken her into custody. The brother was called to collect her on Thursday, the prosecutor said, and they returned to the family home in an eastern Amman suburb. “The brother went out for food and when he returned home, he said he found his sister at the door talking to a man,” the prosecutor said. The brother confessed that he became enraged and stabbed her, according to the prosecutor....

Spree of honour killings in Jordan

Grendel,


Quote:

I cant recall ever seeing an article headed Islamic Honour Killing

Just flick back through this forum, you'll find several that quite clearly claim Muslims have killed their wive's/daughters etc.and that it somehow has something to do with Islam, or in most cases the claim is made that Islam demands or sanctions their behaviour.


Quote:

even though it is true that honour killings do seem prevalent to people of that religion.

Those are the only ones you're interested in, that's probably why they seem prevalent. They are also quite prevalent amongst Sikhs, Hindus and Christians. I've posted plenty of statistics on here about honour killings in Christian Italy and South America. You're simple not interested in the full picture, but just that part of the picture which you think justifies your xenophobic hatred of Islam.

sprintcyclist,


Quote:

abu - thanks for highlighting this abhorrant behaviour of muslims.

The only thing you highlighted there is that Muslims are honourable people. I agree. It doesn't say anything about killing wives and daughters though for sexual mishaps.

mozza,


Quote:

Seriously Abu, that is a stretch for any logical person to accept. It was a crime of passion, no more no less,

So if a Muslim stabbed his adulterous wife and the adulterer to death, it'd be an honour killing, but if a Christian does it, it's a "crime of passion"? What kind of bollocks are you peddling here mozza? It's a revenge/jealousy/jhonour based murder, nothing more, nothing less. Painting it as an act of "passion" is truly bizarre, what's passionate about driving a sharp blade into people because of the rage and anger he felt from being betrayed? He seems to have suffered all the same emotions as any Muslim, or Hindu or Sikh etc. who takes the law into his own hands and punishes those who anger, betray and dishonour him through their treacherous and dishonourable acts.

So in short, he's acting on the same emotions, over the same kinds of events, and the outcome is exactly the same, dead adultress... but it's not the same right? Since one is a Muslim and there's a whole cultural-buzz word for when a Muslim or Sikh or Hindu does it, whilst the other is just a normal everyday Western Christian, so it's just an "act of passion".

You people are living in an alternate plane of existence, really..

Oh dear....  why don't you list em then aboo...  save me doing your work for you.

This is not an honour killing...  it was explained to you why.

I know someone whose sister was killed by her father...  they weren't Muslim.  I considered that an honour killing.

I know about Italians and other latinos who have done such things in the past but you don't see it happening these days with the frequency it happens in Islamic groups.

As for me being interested in them...  I'm not interested in them at all.  I deplore them.  I deplore people killed for being in love due to some religious crap, whether it be Islam or Catholicism.

Hate to tell you this again...  but you are the one living in another plane of existence.  The paranoid delusional plane.

abu - one of the victims "crimes" was
Quote:

he found his sister at the door talking to a man,

.
another was cheating on her husband, the third has been raped.

I don't think any of these actions warrant murder.


Quote:

......that Muslims are honourable people.......

I don't see any honour in killing a woman who has been raped.

neither do almost anyone else on this globe. do you?

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html


Quote:

Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law.

It seems that muslims are the worse trespassers of own religion and laws. No wonder that allah turned away from muslims.

Quote:

Right and there's no such thing as a Muslim honour killing either.

Wrongo, mongo. You need to re-read your Islamic texts. If one goes to their book known as Reliance of the Traveller, A Classic Manual of Islamic Law by Ahmad ib Naquib al-Misri, you see the following:

The following are not subject to retaliation:

......(4) a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring.'

the Chapter headed, Justice, at page 584.

Which is why muslims so often kill their wayward female relatives, there is no retaliation possible for doing that, meaning that they are in the clear. Incidentally, no retaliation is permitted for a muslim killing a non-muslim also, which is to be expected.

So why would they kill a woman for a crime of honour, well the answers lie in the Koran and the hadiths:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.”

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Al-Bukhari:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise”.

Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others:
Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated, “When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance”.

So once a woman (or more rarely) a man, has committed these infractions of Allah's laws, of course they must be killed. It is what Allan the Moon God requires.

So it's not really an honor killing. It's more of an Islamic Killing, carried out by male relatives who have decided to be Allan's enforcers.

As stated in this Amnesty Report:

Among statutory laws, it is particularly two laws
which disadvantage women in Pakistan, both
introduced in the name of the Islamisation of law.
The 1990 law of Qisas and Diyat covers offences
relating to physical injury, manslaughter and
murder. The law reconceptualized the offences in
such a way that they are not directed against the
legal order of the state but against the victim. A
judge in the Supreme Court explained: “In Islam,
the individual victim or his heirs retain from the
beginning to the end entire control over the matter
including the crime and the criminal. They may not
report it, they may not prosecute the offender.
They may abandon prosecution of their free will.
They may pardon the criminal at any stage before
the execution of the sentence. They may accept
monetary or other compensation to purge the crime
and the criminal. They may compromise. They
may accept qisas [punishment equal to theoffence] from the criminal. The state cannot
impede but must do its best to assist them in
achieving their object and in appropriately
exercising their rights.”9
This reconceptualization of offences has sent the
signal that murders of family members are a family
affair and that prosecution and judicial redress are
not inevitable but may be negotiated.
The law of Qisas and Diyat prescribes that the
death penalty may not be imposed for murder as
either qisas [punishment equal to the offence
committed] or tazir [discretionary punishment,
when the evidence is insufficient to impose qisas]
when the wali [heir] of the victim is a direct
descendant of the offender. In such cases the
court may only impose a maximum of 14 years’
imprisonment. Thus, if a man murders his wife with
whom he has a child, who then is the victim’s heir
and the descendent of the offender, he can at most
be sentenced to 14 years’ imprisonment.
Men who have killed their wives or daughters for
bringing shame on them could also in the past find
relief under the provision of "grave and sudden
provocation". Section 300(1) of the Pakistan Penal
Code (PPC) read: “Culpable homicide is not
murder if the offender, whilst deprived of the
power of self-control by grave and sudden
provocation, causes the death of the person who
gave the provocation...” The punishment for
manslaughter is imprisonment, for murder it is
death.
8Simi Kamal, Asma Khan: A study of the
interplay of formal and customary laws on women,
vol.I, 1997, p.ii.
9Federation of Pakistan through Secr. Min.
of Law

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/018/1999/en/9fe83c27-e0f1-11dd-be39-2d4003be4450/asa330181999en.pdf

Calanen, extra-judicial executions are _NOT_ permitted in Islam, and I think you well know it.

Through all your ranting and raving, you didn't manage to bring a single Islamic text that even remotely hints at it.

Yes adultery is a capital offense in Islam, but that's got nothing to do with a man taking the law into his own hands and killing a relative who has committed adultery, or worse just been suspected of it.

sprint,


Quote:

I don't see any honour in killing a woman who has been raped.

Neither do I, and nowhere have I stated anything even remotely close to that. The fact you're resorting to such wild fantasies indicates you know your ramblings are worth squat.

Grendel,


Quote:

I know about Italians and other latinos who have done such things in the past but you don't see it happening these days with the frequency it happens in Islamic groups.

According to women's rights groups in South America it still occurs quite frequently, and according to the U.N several South American countries still have laws that diminish responsibility for "crimes of passion".

Abu - what do these mean ?


Quote:

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196: Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died. (See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.) Sahi Muslim No. 4206: “A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Quote:

Abu - what do these mean ?

Muhammad (pbuh) was the head of state, and also of the judiciary (in the city-state of Medinah, which is where these events occured), and he ordered those sentences according to the law of the state, not according to the whims of an angry or jealous relative. Note that in both cases the guilty parties confessed to their crimes, and that in both cases he tried to avert them from bearing witness against themselves.

As more of the Arabian peninsula came under Islam, and new city-states were added to the Islamic empire, Muhammad (pbuh) set up judiciaries in all the new cities and regions, and required that laws be enacted by the state, not by roaming vigilantes, with proper due process. It's quite clear from all Islamic texts that this is the case. And clear stipulations are made about witnesses and what is required for convictions. Not a single Islamic text hints at just murdering your sister because she spoke to a man at the door. Anyone committing such an act is nothing but a brutal murderer and his actions have no sanction in Islam in the slightest possible way.

Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News

February 12, 2002

Hundreds, if not thousands, of women are murdered by their families each year in the name of family "honor." It's difficult to get precise numbers on the phenomenon of honor killing; the murders frequently go unreported, the perpetrators unpunished, and the concept of family honor justifies the act in the eyes of some societies.

Most honor killings occur in countries where the concept of women as a vessel of the family reputation predominates, said Marsha Freemen, director of International Women's Rights Action Watch at the Hubert Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota.

Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.


But while honor killings have elicited considerable attention and outrage, human rights activists argue that they should be regarded as part of a much larger problem of violence against women.

In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

Complicity by other women in the family and the community strengthens the concept of women as property and the perception that violence against family members is a family and not a judicial issue.

"Females in the family—mothers, mothers-in-law, sisters, and cousins—frequently support the attacks. It's a community mentality," said Zaynab Nawaz, a program assistant for women's human rights at Amnesty International.

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Summary

"Honour" killings of women can be defined as acts of murder in which "a woman is killed for her actual or perceived immoral behavior." (Yasmeen Hassan, "The Fate of Pakistani Women," International Herald Tribune, May 25, 1999.) Such "immoral behavior" may take the form of marital infidelity, refusing to submit to an arranged marriage, demanding a divorce, flirting with or receiving phone calls from men, failing to serve a meal on time, or -- grotesquely -- "allowing herself" to be raped. In the Turkish province of Sanliurfa, one young woman's "throat was slit in the town square because a love ballad was dedicated to her over the radio." (Pelin Turgut, "'Honour' Killings Still Plague Turkish Province," The Toronto Star, May 14, 1998.)

Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law. And the phenomenon is in any case a global one. According to Stephanie Nebehay, such killings "have been reported in Bangladesh, Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey and Uganda." Afghanistan, where the practice is condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban movement, can be added to the list, along with Iraq and Iran. (Nebehay, "'Honor Killings' of Women Said on Rise Worldwide," Reuters dispatch, April 7, 2000.)

Now I'm betting that in those Western countries mentioned that the vast if not all killings are done by muslims.

Quote:

Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

Thank you very much :)

thanks for that answer abu.
it seems we have many different versions of sharia law
it also seems mohammad did not agree with jesus example when asked about adultery.

most sharia include stoning, public beheadings, public amputations.
some are for adultery, some do not.

given mohammads linking with capital punishment, the korans belittlement of women and mohammads approval of assassainations, I am not surprised muslim women get murdered for this.

ROTFLMAO

Just an opinion Aboo wrong like yours.

You forgot to highlight some rights advocates say.

You see SOME...  not all and not necessarily correct either.

Most rights advocates have an agenda and an axe to grind.  Exaggeration is usually a tool of their trade.  Take that as meaning lying.

Clearly a premediated cold blooded murder is not a crime of passion...  by its very definition and roots from the French it has always been about hot-blooded murder.

You need to get deprogrammed or something.

Don't believe me?


Quote:

A crime of passion, in popular usage, refers to a crime in which the perpetrator commits a crime, especially assault or murder, against a spouse or other loved one because of sudden strong impulse such as a jealous rage or heartbreak rather than as a premeditated crime. A typical crime of passion, for example, might involve a husband who discovers his wife has made him a cuckold and proceeds to brutally batter or even kill his wife or the man with whom she was involved. Women (e.g. Ruth Ellis or Lorena Bobbitt), as well as men, can commit crimes of passion. In the United States civil courts, a crime of passion is referred to as temporary insanity. This defense was first used by U.S. Congressman Daniel Sickles of New York in 1859 after he had killed his wife's lover, Philip Barton Key, but was most used during the 1940s and 1950s. In some countries, notably France, crime passionnel (or crime of passion) was a valid defense during murder cases; during the 19th century, some cases could be a custodial sentence for two years for the murderer, while the spouse was dead; this ended in France as the Napoleonic code was updated in the 1970s so that a specific father's authority upon his whole family was over.

Grendel,


Quote:

Exaggeration is usually a tool of their trade.  Take that as meaning lying.

Right... but of course only the parts of the article which contradict your rant about Islam are lies and exaggeration right? The rest is all 100% fact... Thought so :)

When you discredit [selected portions of] your own article, you don't instill a lot of confidence in it [the rest of it].

sprint,


Quote:

t seems we have many different versions of sharia law

Nope not really. Adultery is a capital offence in Shari'ah law, according to all 4 main schools of jurisprudence. So we can say for the sake of this issue, Shari'ah is 100% consistent.


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it also seems mohammad did not agree with jesus example when asked about adultery.

Jesus (pbuh) never forbade capital punishment for adultery, even if we take the Biblical passage you're referring to, he simply highlighted how hypocritical those enacted the sentence were, since the entire society was corrupt, yet they were only implementing the punishment on a defenceless woman. Muhammad (pbuh) taught exactly the same thing, and implementing capital punishment on a corrupt and lewd society is NOT part of Islam.


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most sharia include stoning, public beheadings, public amputations.

Most shari'ah? Not quite sure what this statement stems from...


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given mohammads linking with capital punishment,

Many heads of state throughout history have ruled over states that implement capital punishment. What on earth it has to do with murdering women is beyond me. Is Barak Obama responsible for American's who kill their cheating wives, because he implements capital punishment? Sounds like a pretty unrelated issue to me... Capital punishment and jealous fits of rage have little if anything to do with one another, except that the one who murders his wife would obviously be sentenced to death for murder under a system with capital punishment.


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the korans belittlement of women

Leave that one for the waste basket.


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mohammads approval of assassainations,

Again, many many heads of state have approved the assassinations of their political opponents, inside and outside of their countries, including many of those you probably adore as great leaders... Most of the recent U.S presidents have authorised assassinations... and?

Still can't for the life of me see how it links to enraged husbands murdering their wives...

You know...  you are a sad case.

I put the article there to give an indication of the countries where HKs take place.

I saw the bit you decided to highlight I even saw the bit you decided not to highlight... tsk, tsk, tsk.

I even explained it all to you.

You fail to accept the truth because you are brainwashed and cant accept the truth about your religion and others.

I'm not the one cherry picking, lying and deluded.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 2:29pm:

Quote: Calanen, extra-judicial executions are _NOT_ permitted in Islam, and I think you well know it. But there is no retaliation permissible for extra judicial killings, so the sentence is lenient or, non-existent. [quote]Through all your ranting and raving, you didn't manage to bring a single Islamic text that even remotely hints at it.

I did. The leading text on Islamic law says there is no retaliation for a parent killing their child.

And why would you kill the child, for breaching Islamic law. Hence the honour killing. More obfuscation, but I expect no less ever. Which is why I put the quotes.

Finding the odd Christian that kills his wife (kills a daughter for moral crimes? Almost never) does not overshadow the legion honour killings in Islam. This stems from the secondary status of women, and the more lenient sentence provided for honor killings in Islam, reflected in the statutes of Islamic nations, and rooted in islamic law as I have set out.

Just more smoke and mirrors to try to say that a christian guy who finds his wife with someone else and kills them is somehow like Islamic honour killing - when Islamic honor killing is sanctified, enforced, and aided by the courts, police and the state of islamic regimes.

Even if there were miniscule numbers of honour killings by christians (which there are not) the christian states do not support or aid, or cover up or give more lenient sentences for them.

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But there is no retaliation permissible for extra judicial killings, so the sentence is lenient or, non-existent.

Yes there is, it is murder, and they'd be charged and tried for murder.


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I did. The leading text on Islamic law say...

Ummdat as-saalik is not the leading text on Islamic law. Don't know where on earth you got this misguided impression from. Perhaps you mean "It's the only text I found in English"?

It is not even an original work, it's a rehashing of some of Imam Nawawi's rulings, mixed with other rulings, and was hardly ever used until the American Sufi guy decided to translate it into English. Doesn't mean it's not a book of some merit, but it's most certainly not a 'leading text'... that's the statement of a real amateur.


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Finding the odd Christian that kills his wife (kills a daughter for moral crimes? Almost never) does not overshadow the legion honour killings in Islam

The 'odd' Christian who kills his wife is it??


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according to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery."

(Wikipedia: Honour_killing)

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nd the more lenient sentence provided for honor killings in Islam, reflected in the statutes of Islamic nations, and rooted in islamic law as I have set out.

The statutes in all Muslim countries are mostly based on the European power that colonised them, not on Islam. Like for instance Morocco which is mentioned in Wikipedia:


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Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic code) include: Morocco:

So these laws come from Europe more than they'd ever come from Islam. Again, you've not produced a single Islamic text that even remotely hints at these barbaric activities. The only law codes that permit them are those implanted in the Islamic lands by the Europeans, and those of some other European (in Eastern Europe) or European-founded countries (like in Latin America).

Your pathetic attempts to stick something to Islam which is completely foreign to it is failing miserably.

Anyway enough of the tu quoque, deflections and distractions and back to the original point which is that this is indeed an honour killing. Whilst it would be very rare for a Western Christian to kill his daughter in such a "crime of passion" that's more to do with the fact that Western men no longer have much care about what their daughters do. Most couldn't care less how many men their daughters have sex with, so it's unlikely they'd become enraged over them committing adultery. Whilst Muslims and many other cultures still care for such things.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why is it prevalent in Islamic groups and countries Abu.  
Then why does not being a muslim prevent these acts if they are considered wrong in Islam.
What part of the Koran or Islamic teaching or culture enables/allows this behaviour.
is it part of Sharia?
Does the seemingly natural mysogyny of islam promote it.
What is "awrah" and are women the equal of men in Islam?
If it is not sanctioned by Islam why aren't the perpetrators killed?

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a Western Christian to kill his daughter in such a "crime of passion" that's more to do with the fact that Western men no longer have much care about what their daughters do.

Yes because killing your daughter really shows that you care.

Abu Rashid has always been a crazy extremist wackjob, but now he has really 'jumped the shark.'

http://www.youtube.com/v/MDthMGtZKa4

The tu quoque was with you labelling this as an honor killing, to deflect attention from the routine honor killing occurring in Islamic places.

And now you've come up with some drivel about it being European law that has sanctioned honour killing and imposed these laws on the Islamic world. No doubt with Mossad agents drafting the legislation.

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Perhaps you should ask yourself why is it prevalent in Islamic groups and countries Abu.

Isslam is one of the largest most widespread religions, so the fact it exists in countries Muslims live in, isn't so surprising. Also the fact many Muslim-majority countries have descended into heavy tribalism over the last century or two probably contributes somewhat as well. Anyway I still don't think it's quite as prevalent as you'd like to believe.


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Then why does not being a muslim prevent these acts if they are considered wrong in Islam.

Why does it not prevent drugs? or alcohol? or people not covering their awrah? or people taking interest loans? Quite obviously because Islam is no longer the ruling system in those countries anymore, it has no authority to prevent such things.

Why does Communism not prevent Russia from falling prey to Capitalist pressures today? Because Communism is no longer the ruling system there, and therefore has no power to prevent or implement anything. Woulda thought that one would be logical?


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What part of the Koran or Islamic teaching or culture enables/allows this behaviour. is it part of Sharia?

No, and no... just missed about 20 posts of this thread did you?


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What is "awrah" and are women the equal of men in Islam?

Awrah is the Arabic word for nakedness.

Women are not the equal of men, and neither are men the equal of women. They simply are not the same, and this is a biological fact you cannot escape.


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If it is not sanctioned by Islam why aren't the perpetrators killed?

All Muslim countries are ruled by tyrannical little Western puppets who implement what they want, not what Islam wants. When Islam rules there again, then you're quite welcome to post such arguments, until such a day, such arguments are nothing but folly.

Nice dodge on a couple there Abu...  I won't bother with stuff you try to avoid.

So are you saying now that it is not Islam that is the problem its the people who call themselves Muslims?

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 10:19pm:

Women are not the equal of men, and neither are men the equal of women. They simply are not the same, and this is a biological fact you cannot escape.

You sound positively post-feminist - until we remember that what you can't bring yourself to saying is that in Islam women are simply half men. Yet you are still terrified of them.

Muslims kill their daughters not because they care for them but because they care more about what the neighbours think. And that matters because they have always been tribal and so marriage is, as always, a matter of alliance, clan loyalty and business. They kill not their daughter but their 'spoiled' asset to prove that they strong and worthy of continued respect and inclusion in the clan.