It's amazing how callous Christians can be, even to their own children.

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Praying man let his daughter die

A US jury has found a man guilty of killing his sick 11-year-old daughter by praying for her recovery rather than seeking medical care. The man, Dale Neumann, told a court in the state of Wisconsin he believed God could heal his daughter. She died of a treatable disease - undiagnosed diabetes - at home in rural Wisconsin in March last year, as people surrounded her and prayed.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46143000/jpg/_46143317_-12.jpg Dale Neumann faces up to 25 years in prison

Neumann's wife, Leilani Neumann, was convicted earlier this year.

The couple, who were both convicted of second-degree reckless homicide, face up to 25 years in prison when they are sentenced in October.

A lawyer representing Dale Neumann said he would appeal.

'Faith healing'

During the trial, medical experts told the court that Neumann's daughter could have survived if she had received treatment, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing.

On Thursday Neumann, who is 47 and studied in the past to be a Pentecostal minister, said he thought God would heal his daughter.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," he said. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

He also said he thought his daughter had had flu or a fever, and that he had not realised how ill she was.

Neumann's lawyer said he had been convinced that his "faith healing" was working, and that he had committed no crime.

The prosecution argued that Neumann had minimised his daughter's illness and that he had allowed her to die as a selfish act of faith.

They said the girl should have been taken to hospital because she was unable to walk, talk, eat or drink.

Instead, an ambulance was only called once the girl had stopped breathing.

Source: BBC

I wouldn't have thought that comment was very appropriate from a Muslim who believes in a God, some say the same God, and surely this man's faith in that God is a good thing in the eyes of all God fearing Muslims.

Faith in God would drive one to get her treated, not to leave her to die.

No that's wrong...  faith in medical science would do that.

Evasion number one... down the toilet.

Are you saying Muslims have no faith in God?

Oh and BTW I'm thinking since I actually read the article that she wasn't left alone as you keep saying she was.  Tsk, tsk, tsk a dishonest Muslim.

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Oh and BTW I'm thinking since I actually read the article that she wasn't left alone as you keep saying she was.

Care to quote where I said "left alone"?


Quote:

No that's wrong...  faith in medical science would do that.

You're not all there mate.

Medical science is merely a 'craft' that God has granted us knowledge of. Faith in medicine is irrelevant without faith in God, but faith in God would lead one to have faith in medicine. Medicine in and of itself has no power over your life whatsoever, that doesn't mean utilising it is a waste of time and indicates lack of faith in God.

Kinda like saying faith in cooking is what people have who eat, whilst people who starve themselves to death have faith in God. You're a simpleton really.

ROTFLMAO

I know which one of us is "not all there" and believe me you wont see me in the mirror when you look for him.

Quote?  "leave her to die"  You do know what that means don't you?

Note to Aboo  the title of the article does not say "leave" her to die.

English as a 2nd language?

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2009 at 8:35pm:

Faith in God would drive one to get her treated, not to leave her to die.

Do you mean like islamic treatment of suicide belts or/and crimes of "honour"?

I'm with abu on this one.
That guy did the wrong thing. Proof being his daughter is dead.

he has a duty of care that he failed badly.
Everyone has a duty of care to a sick person.

Grendel,


Quote:

Quote?  "leave her to die"  You do know what that means don't you?

Nowhere did I say "leave her alone". I said "leave her" as in abstain from doing the correct thing to ensure she received treatment. Wasn't that hard was it?

sprint,


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I'm with abu on this one. That guy did the wrong thing. Proof being his daughter is dead.

Good to see you're standing up for the right on this one.

What does this incident show ?

that newmann was so hyped into his beliefs that he put that before his daughers life ?
was it just really bad judgment ?


Quote:

They said the girl should have been taken to hospital because she was unable to walk, talk, eat or drink.

any one of those symptoms is serious in my books

does not sound as though he was in a church or he was actually a pastor at the time.
he had trained to be one.
perhaps his ego and wanting to show others his "absolute faith" made him blind to the facts and deaf to the comments of others.

Whatever, as an adult and her father he is responsible.
he should have plenty of time in jail to reconsider his actions.

You idiot Aboo...  do you know what "leave" means?
I did quote you...
Even in the topic you claim...  "Christian left his daughter to die"
The actual article states.. "let his daughter die".  No leaving involved.
No matter how you look at it your usage implies LEAVING  ie removing oneself from proximity.  NOT THAT THAT WAS EVER MY MAIN POINT ANYWAY. All good Muslims like muddying the water and confusing issues don't they.  :D
Good grief.

How about addressing the real issue then eh?

BTW Sprint...  no one is saying the guy did the right thing.   ::)

This should be a lesson to all you god botherers, people are more important than fictional characters.
I wonder how many here would put their faith ahead of their children, none I'd hope, but I'm not so sure.

skippy - I don't see why there ever should be a case of deciding between your child  (or anyones child)  and ones faith.

Abu is right, this is disgusting, and skippy is right, religious people all need to take stock of what they rationalise as acceptable, because of their religion.

Grendel is wrong, about, ..well as usual, Grendel is just wrong, and Tallo is, as always, irrelevant.
Sprint, as usual, tries his best to be absolutely fair.

We saw an unprecedented rise in evangelical idiocy in the US during the Bush years, let us hope that a saner US president, may reflect itself in saner actions from the american people, and that extremist christians are removed from positions of power and influence throughout US institutions, especially their military.

We do not want the US version of the Taliban,  the "fundie" christians, running the wars in the middle east, as evangelical crusades, even though the evidence seems to point that way now.

This is a demonstration of absolute faith... An attempt to eliminate all sense of uncertainty by believing it possible to transcend the void of doubt that separates faith and knowing. The sense of uncertainty most often betrayed in the faithful by their using of past tense to suggest what the deceased would have thought of an event had they been alive.

It shows the mortal danger of complete surrender to faith and the arrogant assertion that ultimate doubt can be transcended. It's also a good argument for the sense of atheism, in that while disbelief that god exists does little or nothing to ease existential angst and the fear of death, it does disabuse the non-believer of the expectation that a divine force will mitigate the laws of nature in his favour.

Of course, no doubt Dale Neumann will argue that god did answer his pleas for his daughter's life, it's just that the answer was no... Such is arrogance of absolute faith.

What is Grendel wrong about Mozz?  Come on...  fess up.

I'm interested to hear something FACTUAL for a change.

Not just blind blinkered bias.

Come on Mozz not gonna wait all day for you...

All I've done so far is ask a question about Muslim faith and point out to Aboo that LET does not equal LEFT.

This is yet another anti-Christian beat up by Aboo Ben Booby using some individual Christian Fundie as an example of all Christians.  Tallow merely and correctly pointed out Muslims and their cultural beliefs do far worse to their children and the results of which effect far more than those individuals.

So come on blowhard...  fess up where was I wrong???????????????  :D

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using some individual Christian Fundie as an example of all Christians

How terrible of me to condemn a whole community/religion based on the misguided actions of a few... I should refrain from doing this in future, thanks for pointing out the error in my ways Grendel, I'm sure glad you were here to remind me that judging billions of people by the actions of a few is wrong...

abu - I guess that comes down to if his action was a command of the original leader of that belief, if others of that belief supported his actions, if that action had often happened before with others of that following, if the original leader had done that action himself !! etc, etc , etc.

One needs discernment.
In this case, not much discernment though.

sprint,

There's actually entire sects of Christianity that don't believe in modern medicine. There's still others who reject blood transfusions and organ donations etc. So I'd say there's plenty of evidence to suggest this anti-medicine attitude is not an isolated incidence.

There are also some Biblical passages which tend to support this guy's position:

2 Chron. 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease [was] exceeding [great]: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.

James 5:13-15 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2009 at 2:50pm:

abu - I guess that comes down to if his action was a command of the original leader of that belief, if others of that belief supported his actions, if that action had often happened before with others of that following, if the original leader had done that action himself !! etc, etc , etc. One needs discernment. In this case, not much discernment though.

Children mutilation is more islamic then anybody else.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2009 at 6:05pm:

sprint, There's actually entire sects of Christianity that don't believe in modern medicine. ...

There is entire muslim sect that worship a rock  :o

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-6/1192505/dum-sten.gif

Anyone who worships a rock is not a Muslim. Clear & simple.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2009 at 7:24pm:

Anyone who worships a rock is not a Muslim. Clear & simple.

Yes there are only few real muslims who submitted to the will of Allah and welcomed return of Jews to Israel.
Actually that explains why most of false muslims are getting beaten all the time like in ME and in Afghanistan.

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are getting beaten all the time like in ME and in Afghanistan

Even the righteous suffer defeat.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2009 at 7:43pm:

Quote: are getting beaten all the time like in ME and in Afghanistan Even the righteous suffer defeat.

Yes, some righteous US soldiers die in Afghanistan and even some righteous Israelis die from hamas rockets but when one looks at casualty ratio of righteous and their opponents it becomes obvious whose side is supported by Allah.

Abu - yes there are passages in the bible that encourage people toward healing by faith.
Some sects do extrapolate that to what the dad did in the beginning of this thread, others refuse blood transfusions.

I don't believe that is what is intended in the bible.
Jesus did not say to refuse medical help.
Nor does it say that anywhere in the bible.
The bible really should be read in its entirity, then issues like this can be apportioned their relevance.
Some sects are led by charismatic people who major on a few issues within the bible.
They are not wrong, but their weighting of importance is skewed.

yes Aboo...  it is terribly WRONG of you.
However there are a great many more muslims that support terrorism and war and hatred of the west than Christian fundamentalists that through error cause the death of their child.

Apples and elephants abooo...  can you tell the difference.

You have countries full of fundamentalist muslims.

maybe you should move to one.