Well, home grown terrorists?
Or, imported terrorist extremists?

This morning, hundreds of police raided homes in melbourne to take into custody, somali, and lebanese, Islamist extremists, accused of plotting terror attacks in australia, with local military bases reportedly suspected as their targets.

Unfortunately this will see the more racist elements getting hyped up about banning muslims again, but that aside, it is a worry that these wackos think they can bring their violence here, and then be allowed to stay.

Any with "Dual" citizenship, as many Lebanese do, should have their aussie citizenship revoked, and be deported.
All who are not citizens, should be deported.

We only want decent, peaceful people to come to australia, and we need to get that message out, loud and clear.

Oh dear Mozz, you're sounding very One nation...  ;D
You better move this to the Extremist forum...  

Quote:

accused of plotting terror attacks in australia, with local military bases

This really shows us that the facade around the definition of terrorism is beginning to crack wide open doesn't it.

NATO troops firing on and murdering dozens of civilians at a time, is _not_ terrorism, yet Muslims alledgedly plotting to target an army base _is_ terrorism... interesting. About the only factor which seems to change in those two cases, is whether Muslims are the victims or the perpetrators... So Muslim civilian victims are collateral damage, or regrettable casualties, or even human shields, if we really wanna open up the propaganda taps and get the bovine faeces flowing, whilst Muslim perpetrators are always terrorists...

Interesting indeed.

Are you saying the people arrested this morning plotting to storm an army base are not terrorists Abu?
It doesn't matter what religion they are, if that's what they were plotting to do ,they are terrorists.

I don't agree with the war in Iraq Abu, but there is no way you could say these two things have anything in common.

First define for me what terrorism means. I was under the impression it referred to attacks on civilians...

Before anything they are all alleged co-conspirators in an attempted murder plot, after that they were allegedly attempting to use mass murder as a weapon against their own people (insofar as they are Australian citizens).

If guilty, a life term in jail for them is the least that they deserve.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 4^th, 2009 at 2:52pm:

First define for me what terrorism means. I was under the impression it referred to attacks on civilians...

Its definition has changed somewhat since the 9/11 bombings, but it basically means to commit mindless violence in the name of some ridiculous god/objective.

That's what those people arrested this morning were going to do, kill innocent people , for what?

Quote:

it basically means to commit mindless violence in the name of some ridiculous god/objective

Can you further explain for me the difference between mindless violence and mindful violence? I'm assuming for instance when NATO forces murder dozens of civilians in Afghanistan, that is violence of the mindful type, right?

Also I think using terms like 'ridiculous god/objective' doesn't lead us to having a very sound definition. I'm sure Palestinians, Basques, Kurds, Irish etc. do not consider their objectives/gods to be ridiculous, they consider them very worthwhile and in fact critical to their survival as peoples. So that leaves us with their methods, rather than their objectives I think. Since the objectives can not really independantly be classified as ridiculous or worthwhile. Do you think NATO's objectives in Afghanistan are ridiculous or worthwhile? Obviously that will determine whether or not you label their activities as terrorist, won't it? I personally think their objectives there are not only ridiculous but evil, greedy, domineering, and probably a few other terms I can't think of right now.

Quote:

Before anything they are all alleged co-conspirators in an attempted murder plot, after that they were allegedly attempting to use mass murder as a weapon against their own people (insofar as they are Australian citizens).

If convicted then yes they'd be traitors to a country they vowed allegiance to, and I'm sure they'll be more than adequately punished for that.

That doesn't have much to do with the unravelling of the term 'terrorism' which we're seeing from this event though...

Quote:

If guilty, a life term in jail for them is the least that they deserve.

No, a bullet in the head is what they deserve. The appropriate punishment for treason.

Isn't that contrary to Australian law Calanen?

Are you promoting something that's clearly against Australian values/laws?

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 4^th, 2009 at 4:22pm:

Quote: it basically means to commit mindless violence in the name of some ridiculous god/objective Can you further explain for me the difference between mindless violence and mindful violence? I'm assuming for instance when NATO forces murder dozens of civilians in Afghanistan, that is violence of the mindful type, right? Also I think using terms like 'ridiculous god/objective' doesn't lead us to having a very sound definition. I'm sure Palestinians, Basques, Kurds, Irish etc. do not consider their objectives/gods to be ridiculous, they consider them very worthwhile and in fact critical to their survival as peoples. So that leaves us with their methods, rather than their objectives I think. Since the objectives can not really independantly be classified as ridiculous or worthwhile. Do you think NATO's objectives in Afghanistan are ridiculous or worthwhile? Obviously that will determine whether or not you label their activities as terrorist, won't it? I personally think their objectives there are not only ridiculous but evil, greedy, domineering, and probably a few other terms I can't think of right now.

There you go again, compering a terrorist act in Australia with a war in Afghanistan, they are very different things.
I don't agree with the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan , Iraq as its a war for oil and Afghanistan because its a war we will never win and our army would be better served closer to home.
That said, the people arrested this morning were planning to kill soldiers in their barracks in a suicide invasion of those barracks, not in a war zone.
The people arrested this morning are not soldiers ,are they? maybe soldiers of Islam.

Quote:

There you go again, compering a terrorist act in Australia with a war in Afghanistan, they are very different things.

Well they probably consider them to be equivalent actions. I don't imagine it's just a random thought, they most likely planned it as a retaliation for that. So probably not quite as removed as you'd like to think.


Quote:

I don't agree with the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan , Iraq as its a war for oil and Afghanistan because its a war we will never win and our army would be better served closer to home.

Good, and I'm sure a lot of Muslims don't agree with the alleged activities either. Probably more Muslims don't agree with these alleged actions than non-Muslims who don't agree with the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions/occupations.


Quote:

That said, the people arrested this morning were planning to kill soldiers in their barracks in a suicide invasion of those barracks, not in a war zone.

That doesn't really say much other than "Well we turned their country into a wartorn hellhole, so now it's legitimate for us to kill them there, but not for them to do it to us in our nice safe, secure, peaceful country".


Quote:

The people arrested this morning are not soldiers ,are they? maybe soldiers of Islam.

Well I really don't know how they see themselves, but I do know the whole "our soldiers wear uniforms, theirs don't" justifications are wearing a little thin. Covert Western soldiers do NOT wear uniforms, and often operate in disguise, that's part of war. No army/operative/soldier in it's right mind would stand out in the middle of an open field and broadcast it's location and say "Look we're real geneva-convention-abiding soldiers who wear uniforms and don't hide or take cover or operate covertly". Of course when your army is big enough and well equipped enough, you can provide the illusion that you do that, but on the ground it's just not the case. It's just not the smart way to operate in a battle situation.

Muslims...  every one that hasn't assimilated to the Australian way of life and has a dual passport should be deported forthwith.

it's about time we showed them we mean business and aren't the pushovers they think we are.

Grendel wrote on Aug 5^th, 2009 at 1:33am:

Muslims...  everyone that hasn't assimilated to the Australian way of life and has a dual passport should be deported forthwith. it's about time we showed then we mean business and aren't the pushovers they think we are.

Grendel,

Thats a nice sentiment.

But you are labouring under some misapprehension.

We Australians, are the 'pushovers', they think we are!





And this [these sort of people, terrorists] is what we get, because over many years, we have corrupted ourselves.

Once we were people who had respect for good principles, above selfish interest, and profit.

But those days are gone, and we have sold our souls.

When good men tolerate evil in their midst, those men will become evil, themselves.





"For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind...."

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 4^th, 2009 at 6:21pm:

Quote: There you go again, compering a terrorist act in Australia with a war in Afghanistan, they are very different things. Well they probably consider them to be equivalent actions. I don't imagine it's just a random thought, they most likely planned it as a retaliation for that. So probably not quite as removed as you'd like to think. [quote]I don't agree with the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan , Iraq as its a war for oil and Afghanistan because its a war we will never win and our army would be better served closer to home.

Good, and I'm sure a lot of Muslims don't agree with the alleged activities either. Probably more Muslims don't agree with these alleged actions than non-Muslims who don't agree with the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions/occupations.


Quote:

That said, the people arrested this morning were planning to kill soldiers in their barracks in a suicide invasion of those barracks, not in a war zone.

That doesn't really say much other than "Well we turned their country into a wartorn hellhole, so now it's legitimate for us to kill them there, but not for them to do it to us in our nice safe, secure, peaceful country".


Quote:

The people arrested this morning are not soldiers ,are they? maybe soldiers of Islam.

Well I really don't know how they see themselves, but I do know the whole "our soldiers wear uniforms, theirs don't" justifications are wearing a little thin. Covert Western soldiers do NOT wear uniforms, and often operate in disguise, that's part of war. No army/operative/soldier in it's right mind would stand out in the middle of an open field and broadcast it's location and say "Look we're real geneva-convention-abiding soldiers who wear uniforms and don't hide or take cover or operate covertly". Of course when your army is big enough and well equipped enough, you can provide the illusion that you do that, but on the ground it's just not the case. It's just not the smart way to operate in a battle situation.
[/quote]

Well if thats your attitude you should be locked up too you Muslim front bottom.I intend to send these thoughts of yours to ASIO, I hope they come and lock you up too. TRAITER bugger OFF

In other words "You're right, you make good points, which I can't counter-act".

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2009 at 10:02am:

In other words "You're right, you make good points, which I can't counter-act".

That's the first smart thing you've written on this thread.

Yes, I'm right , you are wrong, if you don't like the laws of this country you're free to leave.

You have not given any good explanation for any of your claims thus far skippy. And when you realised that fact.. you resorted to this childish 'dobber' threat. If you think I'm going to drop my views and succumb to your obviously wrong views, just because of some idle threat, then you're going to be disappointed.

You claim to be against the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, but it doesn't really seem like you are. If you were, then you'd realise the reason we are now under threat here in Australia is because of those wars, and because of the reckless and acquiescent policies of our former PM, in dragging us into those wars.

You should be blaming those who brought these problems onto us, and who put us all into danger to begin with.

Prior to our hanging off the coat-tails of Bush, and helping to invade all those Muslim countries, nobody even looked at Australia, or threatened us, even after East Timor. Now since then, we've had Bali, Jakarta, and now a few home-grown threats.

You need to stop leaving the wool on your eyes, and wake up to how naive and reckless we've been. It might be easier to just blame it on the boogey-men, but it won't get us anywhere.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2009 at 10:27am:

You have not given any good explanation for any of your claims thus far skippy. And when you realised that fact.. you resorted to this childish 'dobber' threat. If you think I'm going to drop my views and succumb to your obviously wrong views, just because of some idle threat, then you're going to be disappointed. You claim to be against the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, but it doesn't really seem like you are. If you were, then you'd realise the reason we are now under threat here in Australia is because of those wars, and because of the reckless and acquiescent policies of our former PM, in dragging us into those wars. You should be blaming those who brought these problems onto us, and who put us all into danger to begin with. Prior to our hanging off the coat-tails of Bush, and helping to invade all those Muslim countries, nobody even looked at Australia, or threatened us, even after East Timor. Now since then, we've had Bali, Jakarta, and now a few home-grown threats. You need to stop leaving the wool on your eyes, and wake up to how naive and reckless we've been. It might be easier to just blame it on the boogey-men, but it won't get us anywhere.

Abu, unlike you I hate all violence, you seem to worry about it in other countries but ignore it in your own backyard.
You don't read very well son, I've said many times not only do I disagree with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but I blame Bush and Howard for them, no wonder you Muslims are so hated here, even when people support you and the injustice that occurs in places like Palestine, you whine and whinge that you are the victim.

Now, hopefully you've got all that poo out of your system and you are willing to look at the terrorist action in Australia for what it is, instead of some conspironut anti Muslim rant.
You see the problem with you and many of YOUR kind is that you even piss off the tolerant people in the Australian community when you write such poo, any wonder the extreme Christians want you removed from our shores.

Quote:

Abu, unlike you I hate all violence

You're not as unlike me as you seem to think. I too am opposed to all violence, and really dislike that it exists. I've always been a pacifist, and opposed to solving things with violence.


Quote:

you seem to worry about it in other countries but ignore it in your own backyard

Of course I worry about it here, but I might speak about it more elsewhere, because it's neglected. And we don't realise how it effects us here. That viewpoint needs to be said. We can hide our heads in the sand, and deny it has any link, but it does. If you think saying it makes me a traitor, so be it, I think you denying it would make you more neglectful towards Australia.


Quote:

even when people support you and the injustice that occurs in places like Palestine, you whine and whinge that you are the victim

How strange... the victim complaining they are the victim...


Quote:

no wonder you Muslims are so hated here

Muslims are hated.. by bigots... If you wanna put yourself in that category, your choice.


Quote:

Now, hopefully you've got all that poo out of your system and you are willing to look at the terrorist action in Australia for what it is

You still just don't get it. I'm looking at the causes and reasons behind things like this happening, you're just hiding your head in the sand... Insisting any inkling of looking at the reasons/causes is treason. You're in denial mate.

Abu,I agree that some people here think that what is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan is a reason for them to become terrorists, but it isn't.
I think what is happening is wrong in the ME, but Muslims retaliating in a terrorist manner does that no justice, it just encourages hate.
You as an Australian should be disgusted in the actions of the terrorists here trying to change our way of life, or is that what you want too? do you not like Australia and its laws?

skip you're confusing justification with cause. Just because it causes them or provides reasoning for doing it, doesn't mean it justifies the act in and of itself.

Unfortunately some people will never allow themselves to make this distinction.. and think that entertaining the idea they're linked, instantly means excusing it. It does not.

Quote:

You as an Australian should be disgusted in the actions of the terrorists here trying to change our way of life, or is that what you want too?

That's a Bushism. The allegations against those arrested have nothing to do with changing our way of life any more than they are to do with 'hating our freedom'. They have to do with retaliatory violence.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2009 at 11:51am:

Quote: You as an Australian should be disgusted in the actions of the terrorists here trying to change our way of life, or is that what you want too? That's a Bushism. The allegations against those arrested have nothing to do with changing our way of life any more than they are to do with 'hating our freedom'. They have to do with retaliatory violence.

So you'd prefer Australia NOT be a Muslim country where most people practice Islam?

Quote:

So you'd prefer Australia NOT be a Muslim country where most people practice Islam?

Of course I'd prefer it is. Just as I'm sure Mormons, JW's and many others wish the same for their religion. I believe Islam is the right guidance for all mankind, and therefore wish all to experience it, but that's got nothing to do with committing violence or forcing anything onto anyone.

Islam PROHIBITS forcing anyone to embrace religion.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2009 at 11:57am:

Quote: So you'd prefer Australia NOT be a Muslim country where most people practice Islam? Of course I'd prefer it is. Just as I'm sure Mormons, JW's and many others wish the same for their religion. I believe Islam is the right guidance for all mankind, and therefore wish all to experience it, but that's got nothing to do with committing violence or forcing anything onto anyone. Islam PROHIBITS forcing anyone to embrace religion.

I don't think you're right, I'm an atheist but I don't want everyone in Australia to become atheists, tho I think people who believe in god are wasting their time, that's their choice. I respect your choice to practice Islam, but don't try and tell me I'd be better off embracing it.
You see that's whats wrong with any extremist belief Christian or Islam, you all think the rest of the world would be better off embracing what you believe, arrogant.
If you all just accepted that everyone believes their own thing and most people in this country don't give a toss about any religion, we'd all get on so much better.

Quote:

I'm an atheist but I don't want everyone in Australia to become atheists, tho I think people who believe in god are wasting their time

So you don't think Australia would be better if everyone was atheist?

I know your view, as I previously held it, and all of my family members still hold it.

And Islam doesn't go around door knocking like most other religions. The Islamic way is to lead by example.


Quote:

If you all just accepted that everyone believes their own thing and most people in this country don't give a toss about any religion, we'd all get on so much better.

That's fine, but shouldn't stop me explaining Islam to those who ask, or presenting an example of Islam to people through my own personal character. That's how Islam spreads. And I don't see why you'd have a problem with that.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2009 at 11:57am:

Quote: So you'd prefer Australia NOT be a Muslim country where most people practice Islam? Of course I'd prefer it is. Just as I'm sure Mormons, JW's and many others wish the same for their religion. I believe Islam is the right guidance for all mankind, and therefore wish all to experience it, but that's got nothing to do with committing violence or forcing anything onto anyone. Islam PROHIBITS forcing anyone to embrace religion.

abu,

You know very well, that the statement that you made immediately above, is untrue.







These are just a few examples in ISLAM's own 'scriptures', justifying the violence of the Jihad, against non-moslems,

The Hadith...

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.196


"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.065


"Allah's Apostle said, "Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one of whom kills the other and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah's Cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the 'killer who also get martyred (In Allah's Cause)." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.080i


"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.025



The Koran...

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 4^th, 2009 at 5:47pm:

Isn't that contrary to Australian law Calanen? Are you promoting something that's clearly against Australian values/laws?

Yes that's the current law, now.

As of 2002, it was not the law but up until that point, it was. For 200 years before that, treason was an offence punishable by death. It still should be.

I imagine in terms of 'values' most Australians agree with me

Quote:

You claim to be against the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, but it doesn't really seem like you are. If you were, then you'd realise the reason we are now under threat here in Australia is because of those wars, and because of the reckless and acquiescent policies of our former PM, in dragging us into those wars.

'You can be against WHATEVER wars you want. You can say, no we support pacifism at every turn.

But you cant be, and can never be, is a supporter for our enemies. If you are, you are a traitor who should be shot.

Also, whatever your views about military action - attacking our troops, is NEVER on, and should be punished with the most extreme penalties imaginable. Anyone who seeks to condone such action, explain or support it, does not belong in this country, or even on this planet.

Quote:

Anyone who seeks to condone such action, explain or support it...

Why don't you add "search for reasons or causes why" as well? As that's what you'd also like to stifle isn't it? You'd really like to prolong and even aggravate any kind of conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims because it feeds your deep hatred for Islam and Muslims.

So anyone that hints towards possible causes/reasons/grievances, and by extension solutions, is to you an enemy...

Seems to me the hatred is all on one side.
So is the criminal activity.
Etc, etc, etc.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2009 at 8:26pm:

Quote: Anyone who seeks to condone such action, explain or support it... Why don't you add "search for reasons or causes why" as well? As that's what you'd also like to stifle isn't it? You'd really like to prolong and even aggravate any kind of conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims because it feeds your deep hatred for Islam and Muslims. So anyone that hints towards possible causes/reasons/grievances, and by extension solutions, is to you an enemy...

abu,

The [root] cause of, all of the wars of mankind, are,
1/ injustice, and
2/ the lack of free and open TRUTH [....which fosters justice] in the societies of men.




And abu, it is moslems themselves who seek to act unjustly in the world, and moslems who also wish to suppress all TRUTH, which is in any way critical of ISLAM.

And that is the relevant fact, as to why, where ISLAM is, there is never peace.

Because, moslems do not support equitable justice for all.

And, moslems always seek to suppress the expression of TRUTH, where expressed TRUTH is critical of moslems/ISLAM.





If men want peace,
.....they should seek and support, the expression of free and open [and objective] TRUTH.


Dictionary,
objective = =
1 not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
2 not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.








ISLAM believes in this law of men.....

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."
Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian


ISLAM's society, is a society, where moslems are equals, and all 'unbelievers' are sub-humans, and are 'guilty', people who are to be 'punished' by Allah's people.

And this exposes the chasm of incompatibility, between the societal 'principles' held by all moslem societies, and those held by non-moslem society.

Moslems see no injustice, in the existence of such a society, where non-moslems are sub-humans.






THE KORAN, demonstrates the 'righteousness' of moslems [...because they fight 'unbelievers']...



"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029



"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051
[i.e. those 'moslems' who make sincere friendships with unbelievers, ARE unbelievers]


"Fighting [against non-moslems] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.216
[i.e.... fighting the non-moslems, to bring Allah's way, is a religious obligation.]

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 9:37am:

The [root] cause of, all of the wars of mankind, are, 1/ injustice, and 2/ the lack of free and open TRUTH [....which fosters justice] in the societies of men.

It's HONESTY which fosters justice in the societies of men.

There's no honesty without truth. Honesty is the human adherence to the truth

I wish some here would start adhering to the truth of these situations, instead of just the side that they perceive afflicts them.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 10:40am:

There's no honesty without truth. Honesty is the human adherence to the truth I wish some here would start adhering to the truth of these situations, instead of just the side that they perceive afflicts them.

Honesty is the expression of what you honestly believe to be true.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 10:37am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 6th, 2009 at 9:37am: The [root] cause of, all of the wars of mankind, are, 1/ injustice, and 2/ the lack of free and open TRUTH [....which fosters justice] in the societies of men. It's HONESTY which fosters justice in the societies of men.

helian,

I would not agree entirely with your logic here.

IMO,
It is TRUTH [TRUTH which is 'vigorously' spoken against liars, and their lies], not [passive] honesty, which brings men [and their society] to act in judgement, against wrongdoing in their midst.


Free and open TRUTH, fosters justice, in a society.

And it is the 'presence' of abundant justice in any society, that facilitates peace, within that society [....in my opinion].



And that is why i contend that,

"If men want peace,
.....they should seek and support, the expression of free and open [and objective] TRUTH."

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 11:28am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6th, 2009 at 10:37am: Yadda wrote on Aug 6th, 2009 at 9:37am: The [root] cause of, all of the wars of mankind, are, 1/ injustice, and 2/ the lack of free and open TRUTH [....which fosters justice] in the societies of men. It's HONESTY which fosters justice in the societies of men. helian, I would not agree entirely with your logic here. IMO, It is TRUTH [TRUTH which is 'vigorously' spoken against liars, and their lies], not [passive] honesty, which brings men [and their society] to act in judgement, against wrongdoing in their midst. Free and open TRUTH, fosters justice, in a society. And it is the 'presence' of abundant justice in any society, that facilitates peace, within that society [....in my opinion]. And that is why i contend that, "If men want peace, .....they should seek and support, the expression of free and open [and objective] TRUTH."

Truth is an absolute... wordless and inexpressible except by analogy... Beyond qualification... Neither free and open nor constrained and closed... Ultimately unknowable.

It's honesty that can be free and open.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 11:33am:

Truth is an absolute... wordless and inexpressible except by analogy... Beyond qualification... Neither free and open nor constrained and closed... Ultimately unknowable. It's honesty that can be free and open.

I'm sorry, is your name helian?
.......or abu?

I'm getting you two confused.
/sarc off




helian,

I did qualify the TRUTH i was speaking of.....



Quote:

If men want peace, .....they should seek and support, the expression of free and open [and objective] TRUTH. Dictionary, objective = = 1 not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. 2 not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 11:43am:

helian, I did qualify the TRUTH i was speaking of..... Quote: If men want peace, .....they should seek and support, the expression of free and open [and objective] TRUTH. Dictionary, objective = = 1 not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. 2 not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.

You qualified the truth of which you were speaking? You mean there are many truths? Yours and... other peoples? Which one is the truth?

Being beyond qualification, truth is neither objective nor subjective.

It's beyond qualification. Honesty, however is not.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 11:46am:

You qualified the truth of which you were speaking? You mean there are many truths? Yours and... other peoples? Which one is the truth? Being beyond qualification, truth is neither objective nor subjective. It's beyond qualification. Honesty, however is not.

helian,

I mean, precisely, that, of course, there are [some] TRUTHS which humans are [still] unaware of.

But it is also certain, that some, that many, TRUTH's are easily proven and knowable, even by we 'flawed' human beings.
/sarc off

And those, that, TRUTH, is the TRUTH, what i speak of.

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 12:03pm:

helian, I mean, precisely, that, of course, there are [some] TRUTHS which humans are [still] unaware of. But it is also certain, that some, that many, TRUTH's are easily proven and knowable, even by we 'flawed' human beings. /sarc off And those, that, TRUTH, is the TRUTH, what i speak of.

I'm sure by truth you don't mean, say, mathematical truth.

If there are 'truths' we're unaware of and if those truths can alter our honest belief of what we thought was true, then we may be mistaken about 'truth'. We can only know what we honestly believe to be true... The art of certainty... while accepting that the void of doubt between what we believe to be true and truth itself is unbridgeable, and while the search for truth is a journey, it never reaches its destination.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 12:16pm:

I'm sure by truth you don't mean, say, mathematical truth. If there are 'truths' we're unaware of and if those truths can alter our honest belief of what we thought was true, then we may be mistaken about 'truth'. We can only know what we honestly believe to be true..

What about the TRUTH that the sun, does not set every night, into a muddy puddle of water?

Asserted by ISLAMIC 'science'.

Part 089 - Muhammad and Astronomy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFxVVYsg5Ds




What about the TRUTH, that for many centuries, all men asserted, and believed that the earth was flat?

But now [through applying TRUTH to the scientific process] we all now know, that the earth is in fact a rocky globe hanging in space?

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;.....

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.


http://www.seoco.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/ii_earth_in_space.gif

What about the TRUTH that although man does not have wings, he has 'flown' to the moon?





Quote:

The art of certainty... while accepting that the void of doubt between what we believe to be true and truth itself is unbridgeable, and while the search for truth is a journey, it never reaches its destination.

If i slit your throat, solely because you refuse to believe what i believe, or be bounded by the 'principles' of life which i believe in, that would make me a murderer.

That is TRUTH.

And though i may want to justify, the action i took, that 'justification' will not change the TRUTH, or the fact, that i am a murderer.




And we all know that moslems are very 'just', and 'principled' persons.....

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

Quote:

What about the TRUTH, that for many centuries, all men asserted, and believed that the earth was flat? But now [through applying TRUTH to the scientific process] we all now know, that the earth is in fact a rocky globe hanging in space?

Arr, but yadda, we all now know that the earth is millions of years old, yet some still choose not to believe it.

I don't know what helian is on about, apart from distraction from the topic.

There is only one truth.

People can choose to believe it or not, but there are not many truths.

These guys allegedly planned a terrorist attack on Australians in Australia.  They have shown, just in their behaviour in court, contempt for Australia, it's people and it's laws.  Now that even goes against the policy of multiculturalism, so if ever there was a case for deportation this is it.

wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 1:32pm:

Quote: What about the TRUTH, that for many centuries, all men asserted, and believed that the earth was flat? But now [through applying TRUTH to the scientific process] we all now know, that the earth is in fact a rocky globe hanging in space? Arr, but yadda, we all now know that the earth is millions of years old, yet some still choose not to believe it.

skip,

Were you around back then?

If not, then where is your unassailable evidence, 'that the earth is millions of years old'?

If you don't have it, then perhaps you should rephrase what you said above?



Quote:

.....Arr, but yadda, we all now know believe that the earth is millions of years old

Grendel wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 1:32pm:

I don't know what helian is on about, apart from distraction from the topic.

Read where the thread, Grunt and where it went to on 'truth'.

Quote:

What about the TRUTH, that for many centuries, all men asserted, and believed that the earth was flat?

That was pretty much only Christian Europe, the rest of it world did not believe it.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 6^th, 2009 at 1:52pm:

Quote: What about the TRUTH, that for many centuries, all men asserted, and believed that the earth was flat? That was pretty much only Christian Europe, the rest of it world did not believe it.

Those stupid, Christian Europeans!

You seem to be a major contributor to the TRUTH tangent to me Helian....  gonna name-call and say that's a lie?  :D :D :D