The Koran and Mohammed, confirm the authenticity of, and venerate Jewish, Christian, scriptures.





abu,

Throughout the Koran, it is declared that the OT Bible, and the New Testament Gospel, were revealed, and sent to Moses and Jesus, by Allah.


And [CLEARLY IN THE TIME OF MOHAMMED, AND THE TIME OF THE 'REVELATION' OF THE KORAN, BY ALLAH] many Koran verses venerate the Jewish OT Bible, and the New Testament scriptures, as clearly being authentic scriptures.

i.e. At that time, when the Koran was being revealed to Mohammed, Allah declares [within the Koran] that the Jewish OT Bible, and the New Testament scriptures, are authentic scriptures.

Yet moslems now wish to declare that the Koran has eminence, over the 'corrupt' Jewish OT Bible, and over the 'corrupt' New Testament scriptures?

How can this be discrepancy be explained?,
.....except as the mendacity of moslem scholars, wishing to denigrate and disparage, Judaism, and Christianity, in an attempt to deprive Judaism, and Christianity of their theological legitimacy?


Q's

Q1.
Don't these Koran verses [below] contradict the claims by moslems, that Jewish OT Bible, and the New Testament scriptures, were, or have been, corrupted by Jews, and Christians?

Q2.
If.....as moslems maintain, the Jewish OT Bible, and the New Testament scriptures were corrupted, by Jews, and Christians, where are the AUTHENTIC copies of these scriptures, which moslems themselves clearly venerated, as [their own] originating foundation documents, originating from, and sent by Allah [as evidenced, by declarations made in the Koran and Hadith]?


abu,

Where are the authentic copies of the Jewish, and Christian scriptures, which moslems clearly had possession of, at the time of Mohammed?


abu,

I tell no lie, i have been in 'paradise', i have seen the 'kingdom of heaven',
...but you will not make it there,
...unless you repent.




Words NOT, from the Koran.....

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Quote:

"......That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Isaiah 57:14
....Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.
15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Dictionary,
contrite = = feeling or expressing remorse.




Do you want to know the mind, of our God?

Read the Psalms.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa001.html#top






MORE.....

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST.....








Some of the Koran verses, which refer to, 'the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)',

"Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). "
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.002
v. 2,3
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.048
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.065

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein......
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:....... "
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.046
v. 46-48


Quote:

"......We [Allah] sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him:."

"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side.........Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. "
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.066
v. 66-69
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.110


Quote:

"......those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,....on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

....in the above quote, note the use of the present tense, 'who follow'.


http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/007.qmt.html#007.157
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html#009.011


"Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel;....."
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/057.qmt.html#057.027


Quote:

"......We [Allah] sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel;......"

The Hadith declares, that Mohammed revered a clearly UNCORRUPTED Torah,

"A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. "
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4434


Quote:

"....I [Mohammed] believed in thee [the Torah] and in Him Who revealed thee. "

As evidenced and witnessed, in,

Part 133 - Torah- -Taurat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubGiSVnrS28




A full list of all, al Rassooli's "AhmadsQuran3" talks, available on YOUTUBE....
http://www.al-rassooli.com/ahmadsquran3/

http://www.inthenameofallah.org/

The Qur'an doesn't mention anything called the "OT" or the "Bible". These are invented terms for the remnants of books originally revealed to Ahl al-kitab.

The Qur'an speaks about the Taurah, Zabur, Injeel and the Suhoof of Ibrahim, it does not speak about a "Bible" or an "Old Testmanet" nor a "New Testament". Those books you have are collections (often differing in their composition) of some revelations and some fabrications.

Even the OT itself testifies to the corruption of the books you today call the Taurah.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord, (Lit: Taurah)" when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

abu,

Instead of deflecting, please answer these questions, particularly, the last one.





Yadda wrote on Aug 13^th, 2009 at 7:47am:

Q's Q1. Don't these Koran verses [below] contradict the claims by moslems, that Jewish OT Bible, and the New Testament scriptures, were, or have been, corrupted by Jews, and Christians? Q2. If.....as moslems maintain, the Jewish OT Bible, and the New Testament scriptures were corrupted, by Jews, and Christians, where are the AUTHENTIC copies of these scriptures, which moslems themselves clearly venerated, as [their own] originating foundation documents, originating from, and sent by Allah [as evidenced, by declarations made in the Koran and Hadith]? abu, Where are the authentic copies of the Jewish, and Christian scriptures, which moslems clearly had possession of, at the time of Mohammed?

Quote:

Where are the authentic copies of the Jewish, and Christian scriptures, which moslems clearly had possession of, at the time of Mohammed?

The ebil zionist joos stole them and sold them on Ebay. Bastardages.

Quote:

Instead of deflecting, please answer these questions, particularly, the last one.

No deflection, if you *actually* read what I wrote you'd find I answered your questions.


Quote:

which moslems clearly had possession of, at the time of Mohammed

Not quite sure where you get this claim from... care to elaborate exactly what is meant by that? News to me that Muslims had possession of any revelations at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) other than the Qur'an.

Calanen wrote on Aug 13^th, 2009 at 1:42pm:

Quote: Where are the authentic copies of the Jewish, and Christian scriptures, which moslems clearly had possession of, at the time of Mohammed? The ebil zionist joos stole them and sold them on Ebay. Bastardages.

LOL



Hi Cal,

abu won't address the logic of the argument i posed.

He won't, he can't.

It would 'cost' a moslem too much, to address moslem lies, to admit that there is a problem.




The moslem answer to most problems [in those places where moslems are NOT pre-eminent in political power],
....denial, denial, denial.

The moslem answer to most problems [in those places where moslems ARE pre-eminent in political power],
....terror, violence, murder.

Quote:

abu won't address the logic of the argument i posed.

Can't address that which doesn't exist. Your argument is not only illogical, it's based on pure fallacy.

Which I think you've realised now, was probably fed to you from some anti-Islamic website. This is what happens when you don't do your own research, but instead try to critique something based on someone elses second hand knowledge. Nowhere in the Islamic texts does it state Muslims had revelations other than the Qur'an, so you've tried to argue something, which doesn't even exist.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 13^th, 2009 at 11:00pm:

Quote: abu won't address the logic of the argument i posed. Can't address that which doesn't exist. Your argument is not only illogical, it's based on pure fallacy. Which I think you've realised now, was probably fed to you from some anti-Islamic website. This is what happens when you don't do your own research, but instead try to critique something based on someone elses second hand knowledge. Nowhere in the Islamic texts does it state Muslims had revelations other than the Qur'an, so you've tried to argue something, which doesn't even exist.

.....and the moslem denials just continue [as evidenced above].






abu,

I am no 'Robinson Crusoe' [i am not a lone voice] on these issues.

And all of these claims about the illogical, deceitful doctrinal positions, ISLAM's history, as portrayed by moslems,
.....ARE ALL DERIVED FROM ISLAMIC TEXTS, AND SOURCES.

Part 188A - Islam's Culture of DENIAL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXMuJMuUH0

Part 188B - Islam's Culture of DENIAL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWmy1BHZTTY

Part 067 - Dilemma of Muhammadan Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dd7adRI5q4
....a complete culture of denial

Part 084 - Islam Before Muhammad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6daBEwivQE
....moslems in a state of denial


But the facts, are of no consequence to moslems.

The moslem denials, in the face of TRUTH's continue.

So now your loaded argument (that Muslims supposedly had an original Bible with them at the time of Muhammad) has backfired on you, you're going to just resort to your usual rants and cut/paste ramblings.

You are your own worst enemy in any discussion you undertake Yadda.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 14^th, 2009 at 9:28am:

So now your loaded argument (that Muslims supposedly had an original Bible with them at the time of Muhammad) has backfired on you, you're going to just resort to your usual rants and cut/paste ramblings. You are your own worst enemy in any discussion you undertake Yadda.

abu,

Thank you for your opinion.

I am happy to let the people who read our respective posts, decide about who's expressed opinion, has more relevance [veracity].


Dictionary,
veracity = = conformity to facts; accuracy. habitual truthfulness.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 13^th, 2009 at 11:53am:

The Qur'an doesn't mention anything called the "OT" or the "Bible". These are invented terms for the remnants of books originally revealed to Ahl al-kitab. The Qur'an speaks about the Taurah, Zabur, Injeel and the Suhoof of Ibrahim, it does not speak about a "Bible" or an "Old Testmanet" nor a "New Testament". Those books you have are collections (often differing in their composition) of some revelations and some fabrications.

abu,

Again, i put to you, the Koran confirms the validity of the 'scripture' of the 'people of the Book'.

Read what it states, carefully.

The Koran states.....

"But why do they [the 'people of the Book'] come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
To thee [the 'people of the Book'] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;"
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.043
v 43-48



Listen to this audio presentation...
Part 169 - Confirming Previous Revelations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsYAONXNB9Y

The Koran instructs....
'Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them...'

And the Koran [itself, which moslems claim is without error!!] confirms the status the previous, unalterable, and protected scriptures, the unalterable Torah and Gospels.


abu,

Your logic, doesn't have any!!!

Read the Koran, yourself.i


Quote:

Even the OT itself testifies to the corruption of the books you today call the Taurah. Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord, (Lit: Taurah)" when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

No it does not.

That verse is a rebuke, to the scribes, in that they do not follow the instruction of their law.



Jeremiah 8:8
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
9  The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

Why would Allah counsel, in the Koran,


Quote:

"But why do they [the 'people of the Book'] come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah;.....

.....if Allah already knew that HIS scripture, given to the 'people of the Book' was altered, and corrupt?

Such counsel doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Again, i put to you, the Koran confirms the validity of the 'scripture' of the 'people of the Book'.

And again I put to you that the Qur'an confirms the original Taurah, Zabur, Injeel and Suhoof, not the "Bible", not the "Old Testament" nor the "New Testament".

Just to point out to you how futile your claims are, the "Bible" that you have today, was not definitively canonised into the format it's in now, until the mid 1500's. There were various canonical lists prior to this time, but most of them differed from today's standard. And even today, as I'm sure you're aware, amongst different denominations there are different canonical lists.

Then we have things like the Qumran (dead sea) scrolls, which also differ in canonical list, but also differ in the text as well. As well as the Nag Hammadi texts, which differ dramatically.

We also have the Abyssinian Church, which is one of the oldest, which has more books than any other denomination, as well as many extra chapters for books which others accept. The Georgian Church also has extra books not accepted by other Churches..

So when you say "Bible", which Bible do you mean exactly?


Quote:

That verse is a rebuke, to the scribes, in that they do not follow the instruction of their law.

The translation you 'chose' doesn't really stick to the original Hebrew very well. The original Hebrew clearly indicates the Taurah is not with them anymore, and that false scribes have used their lying pens to 'handle' it.


Quote:

.....if Allah already knew that HIS scripture, given to the 'people of the Book' was altered, and corrupt? Such counsel doesn't make sense.

It's a command for them to judge by it, not the Muslims. Islamic Shari'ah calls for Jews and Christians to judge between _themselves_ by their laws, in fact throughout Islamic history, the Caliphate always established Jewish and Christian courts, so they could judge according to their own laws.

The Qur'an quite clearly talks about the corruption of the texts of the People of the Book (2:79 for instance). Your argument is based on the fact the Qur'an tells them to judge between themselves with it, not that it says it's not corrupted.

According to moslems, ISLAM is correct.

And, non-moslems are in error, ALWAYS.

And, anyone who criticises ISLAM is wrong, ALWAYS.





Dear readers of this thread, see also THIS GEM from 'Archimedes2'.....


Quote:

....I think one "refutation" that we are blinded to is simply the following:    #102: He is criticizing Islam. We kuffar don't realise, and strangely enough, the Islamists and their apologists appear not to realise that we don't realise, that they regard this as a self-evident, complete refutation of all your arguments. Although it is a logical non-sequitor, this doesn't seem to bother them in the least. The argument goes: 1. Spencer is criticizing Islam (which they would posit as self-evident); 2. Ergo, all his statements are wrong and invalid. Case closed.

Refutin' on a Friday afternoon
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016511.php#c396355





I refer the readers of this thread, to my previous post.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1250113625/10#10