Australian Politics Forum

Australian Politics Forum
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Spirituality >> Spiritual words from the koran http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1250300293 Message started by sprintcyclist on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 11:38am

Title: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 11:38am

There you go Abu. have a shot, tell us a story.

it'ld be nice if there were no derigatory remarks here against the koran et al.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 6:14pm

As has been mentioned before (when you, or perhaps others opened similar topics to this), your book cannot even be compared with the Qur'an. Your book is more like hadith, wisdoms and quotes of people (prophets). The Qur'an is the divine word of God, not golden rules or prophetic advice.

And in those threads I provided for you some wisdoms from the collections of Muhammad's hadith.

Such as:

Let him who believes in God and the day of judgement, either speak good or be silent. Let him who believes in God and the day of judgement, be kind to his neighbour. Let him who believes in god and the day of judgement honour his guest.

Nobody truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself"

The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [ The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I fought for you until I died a martyr. He will say: You have lied - you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: He is courageous. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man who has studied [religious] knowledge and has taught it and who used to recite the Quran. He will be brought and Allah will make known to his His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I studied [religious] knowledge and I taught it and I recited the Quran for Your sake. He will say: You have lied - you did but study [religious] knowledge that it might be said [of you]: He is learned. And you recited the Quran that it might be said [of you]: He is a reciter. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man whom Allah had made rich and to whom He had given all kinds of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make known to his His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I left no path [untrodden] in which You like money to be spent without spending in it for Your sake. He will say: You have lied - you did but do so that it might be said [of you]: He is open-handed. And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire.

Spend (on charity), O son of Adam, and I shall spend on you.

O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink whin You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.

Give the worker his wage before his sweat dries

But we both know you're not interested in Islamic spiritualism sprint. You are interested in ways to criticise it.. This is because you lack sincerity.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 9:36pm

This is all very nice but nothing new. You don't need Mohammed for these. It has been all said before. "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 10:42pm

quid est quod fuit ipsum quod futurum est quid est quod factum est ipsum quod fiendum est.

nihil sub sole novum nec valet quisquam dicere ecce hoc recens est iam enim praecessit in saeculis quae fuerunt ante nos.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 11:01pm

[quote author=helian link=1250300293/0#3 date=1250426554]quid est quod fuit ipsum quod futurum est quid est quod factum est ipsum quod fiendum est.

nihil sub sole novum nec valet quisquam dicere ecce hoc recens est iam enim praecessit in saeculis quae fuerunt ante nos.
[/quote}

'ello, 'ello, 'ello, Wassis then? Quotin' the Bible, are we, gov?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:07am

Soren, you are a dolt.

The Qur'an does not say anything about spreading Islam by the sword. Actually if we look at it, the Bible is the book in which God supposedly commanded the faithful to go out and slaughter people wholesale.

You really have some nerve fabricating such lies about Islam, when they exist as truth in your own book. Guess the best defense is a good offense right?

Quote:

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

If anyone's book is a little violent then it's yours, it is bursting from the seams of your book, not mine.

Yeh yeh yeh, "We don't follow that anymore", good for you.. it''s still in your book, it was brought by your prophets, it was commanded by God (according to your book), so the capacity for it, the idea of it, is part and parcel of your book and your religion. To now all of a sudden claim such things are pure evil, would be to blaspheme against your own God, something I know you couldn't care less about aanyway...

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 1:29am

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 11:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 10:42pm:

'ello, 'ello, 'ello, Wassis then? Quotin' the Bible, are we, gov?

Nothing new under the sun, old son.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:16am

thanks ABU, feel freet post spiritual quotes from the koran with references.

Again, I'ld appreciate no derigatory coments.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:51am

How many of those quotes are covered by the Golden Rule?

Oh dear. Yet here we have someone scorning the Bible.

The Christians book is the NT... something Abu has been told ad nauseum yet he still lies about its contents.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 10:11am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 10:42pm:

Latin for all?

This post, from he who criticised myself, for having the temerity to clarify the meaning of words, by presenting dictionary definitions.

helian,

What do those words mean?

Except to confirm to yourself, that obviously, great minds [such as your own] are conversant with Latin phrases, whereas, we lower proles can barely speak the Queens English.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 10:40am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:07am:

abu,

The violent event, in the Bible verse you quote, hasn't taken place yet.

And i notice that you freely quoted this Bible verse, but failed to give any reference.

So that folk could look it up, and comprehend for themselves.

Ezekiel 9:4-7

The events of Ezekiel 9:4-7 were the events which took place within a vision.

Ezekiel 8:1
And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me.
2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.
3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 10:43am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:16am:

thanks ABU, feel freet post spiritual quotes from the koran with references.

Again, I'ld appreciate no derigatory coments.

Good luck! ;D

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 10:48am

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 10:11am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 10:42pm:

You're a Christian aren't you, kunt?

Work it out.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 11:02am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 10:11am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 10:42pm:

You're a Christian aren't you, kunt?

Work it out.

helian,

Can't you say that in some obscure, ancient Peruvian dialect, so that we can all be edified by your words?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 11:10am

Come on guys, let abu have his words in here

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 11:36am

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 11:02am:

helian,

Can't you say that in some obscure, ancient Peruvian dialect, so that we can all be edified by your words?

If you were a real Christian and not just an isolated crackpot you'd know something of Latin and Greek - the two languages Christianity was first transmitted.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 11:42am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 6:14pm:

As has been mentioned before (when you, or perhaps others opened similar topics to this), your book cannot even be compared with the Qur'an. Your book is more like hadith, wisdoms and quotes of people (prophets). The Qur'an is the divine word of God, not golden rules or prophetic advice.

And in those threads I provided for you some wisdoms from the collections of Muhammad's hadith.

Such as:

Let him who believes in God and the day of judgement, either speak good or be silent. Let him who believes in God and the day of judgement, be kind to his neighbour. Let him who believes in god and the day of judgement honour his guest.

abu,

Where is the reference?

Those are truly beautiful words.

But you must also, or should, clarify, that the invocation in those beautiful words, only applies to neighbours who are fellow moslems.

ISLAMIC peace, and charity [love], is for fellow moslems, exclusively.

Why have you omitted that clarification?

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 11:44am

sprint,

Quote:

thanks ABU, feel freet post spiritual quotes from the koran with references.

As I said, if you're after nice spiritual words of wisdom or prophetic advice, for us that is contained in Hadith, not in the Qur'an. The Bible is analogous to our Hadith, not to the Qur'an, since the Hadith are the sayings/words of our prophet, as the Bible is your words of prophets.

The Qur'an is more of an exposition of all things (in it's own words). It is something you must read, not merely post small quotes from. My advice would be to get yourself a copy, and have a read.

But if you'd just like small prophetic wisdoms, I'm quite happy to quote hadith to you.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:00pm

Grendel,

Quote:

How many of those quotes are covered by the Golden Rule?

You mean this Golden rule??

Ancient Egyptian Papyrus':
"Do to the doer to cause that he do" (Around 2000 B.C)
"That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another" (Around 600 B.C)

Ancient Greek Philosophy:
"Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." (Pittacus, Around 600 B.C)
"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." (Thales, Around 600 B.C)

Hinduism:
"One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires." (From the Vedas, Around 800 B.C)

Or perhaps you mean the 10 commandments?? That stone tablet given by God to a prophet in the forrm of tablets? Ever heard of the code of Ur-Nammu? Almost the exact same laws, but written earlier... And? what is your point in pointing out that religious/moral wisdoms often contain similar concepts across religions/nations/cultures?

Quote:

The Christians book is the NT... something Abu has been told ad nauseum yet he still lies about its contents.

Do you not believe in the OT? Do you not believe God revealed it? Do you not believe it is the truth? Sure I understand you don't practise it, but don't you at least believe itt was revealed by the same God you supposedly believe in? Jesus (pbuh) certainly did, according to the reports in the NT.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:05pm

Quote:

But you must also, or should, clarify, that the invocation in those beautiful words, only applies to neighbours who are fellow moslems.

Wrong, it applies to all neighbours. In fact Muhammad (pbuh) had a Jewish neighbour, that used to tip garbage from his window on the prophet (pbuh) each day when he'd walk past. One day he did not tip it, and Muhammad (pbuh) went to his door to enquire about his well-being, and the man instantly embraced Islam...

Quote:

Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you

This does not refer to physical proximity.

As usual, you do nothing but lie.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:14pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:05pm:

Quote:

But you must also, or should, clarify, that the invocation in those beautiful words, only applies to neighbours who are fellow moslems.

This does not refer to physical proximity.

As usual, you do nothing but lie.

[/quote]

Yadda quotes unambiguous, clear, words from the Koran, but,
1/ those words don't 'mean' what they 'suggest', and,
2/ Yadda is a liar.

Sure.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:36pm

Quote:

Yadda quotes unambiguous, clear, words from the Koran, but,

Your claim about only havinng to be nice to muslim neighbours is from your own mind, you quoted nothing to back it.

As for the verse you quoted, the word translated as "near to you" does not refer to physical nearness, as I said, you lie.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:44pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:00pm:

Grendel,

Quote:

How many of those quotes are covered by the Golden Rule?

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." Confucius.

"One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness hereafter." Buddhism

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." Hillel

"The truly enlightened ones are those who neither incite fear in others nor fear anyone themselves". Sikhism

And on it goes...

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 1:02pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:36pm:

Quote:

Yadda quotes unambiguous, clear, words from the Koran, but,

Your claim about only havinng to be nice to muslim neighbours is from your own mind, you quoted nothing to back it.

Proof.....

Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

Google,
"golden rule" muslims non-muslims
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22golden+rule%22+muslims+non-muslims&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

Google,
islamic "universal human rights"
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=islamic+%22universal+human+rights%22&btnG=Search&meta=

Google,
site:http://www.jihadwatch.org/ islam on Human Rights
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jihadwatch.org%2F+islam+on+Human+Rights&btnG=Search&meta=i
Quote:

As for the verse you quoted, the word translated as "near to you" does not refer to physical nearness, as I said, you lie.

Moslem logic, in dealing with criticism of ISLAM, from non-moslems.....

abu disagrees with TRUTHFUL information [relating to ISLAM] provided by Yadda,
......ergo, Yadda 'lied'.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 1:57pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:07am:

Soren, you are a dolt.

The Qur'an does not say anything about spreading Islam by the sword.

You really have some nerve fabricating such lies about Islam, when they exist as truth in your own book. Guess the best defense is a good offense right?

Who said anything about the Koran? I said "what Mohammed brought":

Quote:

and I quoted the Byzantine Emperor (via the pope). The hadith, the sayings of Mohammed, are full of evil and inhuman things, and the Koran is not free from them either, according to the said Emperor. He was arguing with a Mohammedan scholar.

And you know what that scholar answed? He said, "Geez, is that the time already? Must run my dear old emperor, I'll get back to you." (I am quoting from memory.)

And sure enough, in a few years the Mohammedan armies got back to him, in force, and overrun Byzantium. Fancy that! Shurely shome mishtake.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 2:23pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 12:07am:

Soren, you are a dolt.

The Qur'an does not say anything about spreading Islam by the sword.

The Hadith clearly does though!

The Hadith...

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.196

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.065

"Allah's Apostle said, "Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one of whom kills the other and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah's Cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the 'killer who also get martyred (In Allah's Cause)." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.080i

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.025i

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 4:57pm

Yadda,

Quote:

Proof.....

Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam..

LOL This is your source of what Islam states? The CDHRI has absolutely _ZERO_ bearing on what Islam teaches. It is not a source of Shari'ah. Besides, from the few lines I read of that link, it doesn't state anything like what you're claiming. Care to actually quote what you think is your proof? Note: It is not proof of anything, since the sources of Islamic legislation are the Qur'an, Hadith, Qiyas of the Mujtahideen and Ijma' of the Sahabah. Not the CDHRI.

Quote:

Google,
"golden rule" muslims non-muslims
Google,
islamic "universal human rights"
Google,
site:http://www.jihadwatch.org/ islam on Human Rights

Google "idiots who use Google as a source of authentic information".

Quote:

abu disagrees with TRUTHFUL information [relating to ISLAM] provided by Yadda,
......ergo, Yadda 'lied'.

Still fabricating I see. If you ever decide to embrace truth and reject the falsehood that you hold so dear, then you might realise the meaning of "near to you" in this verse refers to relatives (ie. family nearness), not neighbours (ie. living in physical proximity to you).

Quote:

The Hadith clearly does though!

There's no doubting Islam does permit people/nations to use physical force to defend themselves. But you won't find anything like the blood-lusting stuff in the Bible, where it says have no pity, show no mercy, kill the young, old, men, women, etc. The Islamic texts enjoin restrictions and mildness when dealing with hostility. The Bible just speaks about slaughtering wholesale, and taking all the virgins as concubines.

soren,

Quote:

and I quoted the Byzantine Emperor (via the pope)

The same emperor who incited numerous crusades against the Muslims? Calling on the Bulgars to obliterate the Turks from the face of the earth? Yeh he's really in a position to judge others. Like Yadda and yourself, he was an A Grade hypocrite.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by DARWIN on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 5:52pm

abu relentlessly spins about Islam. Why waste time arguing with him?

It weren't christians who flew the two airliners into the twin towers!

The trouble with Muslims is their faith keeps them in the Dark Ages.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 6:28pm

Darwin wrote on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 5:52pm:

abu relentlessly spins about Islam. Why waste time arguing with him?

It weren't christians who flew the two airliners into the twin towers!

The trouble with Muslims is their faith keeps them in the Dark Ages.

DARWIN,

It is tedious.

But if we don't contradict moslem error, they will take it as weakness and our consent, to do TO US, what they deem ISLAMIC, and 'justified'.

i.e. Oppress us.

Part 123 - Silence is Consent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g15Wk-1zNg
Contrast, moslem silence, in response to attacks of terror by moslems.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 7:32pm

I'm well aware of the Golden Rule and the versions in other religions thanks Abu.
Oh dear it appears you think everyone not a Muslim is dumb or illiterate or ignorant.

Not this little black duck Aboo.

My point was that which you quoted as the be all and end all word of God... yet scorned as the Christian Golden Rule because it was in that lesser document the Bible... seems to be well and truly covered in Christian teachings.

I believe that the OT is the Jewish "Bible"... it is a history of jewish history and belief.
The NT is a new covenant between God and man, they are not the same thing even if they share teachings or one is based on the other.

You may be confused Aboo... and you may like to think badly of those of us who are not Muslim, but I'm not confused in the least.

Oh and Aboo were you trying to say Allah came up with his version of the GR after all those other religions did? I mean the Koran is the word of God right and the Koran and islam came a long time after Christianity did. Right? ;)

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:06pm

Darwin,

Quote:

It weren't christians who flew the two airliners into the twin towers!

Suppose it wasn't a Christian who blew up the Oklahoma city building either right? Wasn't Christians who completely obliterated Iraq and Afghanistan and murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians? Wasn't Christians who nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, wasn't Christians who gassed millions of people in Europe either.. right?? No no no, Christians don't do those kinds of things. The measely retaliations of a few disgruntled Muslims can not even remotely compare to the large scale massacres and genocides carried out by Christians, just in the last century alone.

Grendel,

Quote:

I'm well aware of the Golden Rule and the versions in other religions thanks Abu.

Really?? Your first post seemed to indicate you were under the delusion it was a Christian invention, and that any other religion using it was just plagiarising an originally Christian teaching... not the case? My apologies then :)

Quote:

Oh dear it appears you think everyone not a Muslim is dumb or illiterate or ignorant.

Well no.. but you don't give much hope ;D

Quote:

My point was that which you quoted as the be all and end all word of God

Sprint asked for quotes, I gave him some... In case you didn't notice, that's why the thread was opened... Not too quick on the uptake are you?

Quote:

I believe that the OT is the Jewish "Bible"

The OT is known in Judaism as the "TaNaKH". Which is an acronym formed by taking the first letter of the 3 books of which it is made up, the Taurah, Nebiium & KHetubim. Bible is a Greek term used to describe the binding of the OT & NT into a single book.

Either way, it was the book used by Jesus (pbuh) and his followers was it not? So if God can command people to have no pity, no mercy, and to kill old, young, children, babies etc. then I'm sure that just merely permitting Muslims to fight to defend themselves pales in comparison. That was my point, but I should've known it would go straight over this little black duck's head..

Quote:

The NT is a new covenant between God and man, they are not the same thing

That's right, but you still believe it's the same God right?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:35pm

Well thanks for that... pointless rubbish.
If you want to debate isn't it about time you debated reality. ie what people actually say as opposed to bits of what they say or what you think they say or would like them to have said? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No?
Too difficult for Muslims to cope with reality?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 9:01pm

The golden rule appears over and again in philosophical musings, religious instruction and sage advice and owes its eternal expression more to human instinct and intuition, upon formative interaction with others, than it ever will to metaphysical beings or 'divine revelation'.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 17^th, 2009 at 9:13pm

Your point...?
We already covered it re the claims in the topic.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by DARWIN on Aug 18^th, 2009 at 11:46am

Hmmmm Hiroshima, well, you launch a war with a sneak attack on a superior power you are going to get punished.

Nazis were not christians.

Re Iraq and 'Stan, hysterically exaggerated claims that do not help your rotten cause. You didn't mention that millions of people from christian countries protested the war.

Islam has not evolved being stuck to the mish mash of Mohammad's writing that was jammed together into a book, the Koran. How anyone can think Sharia law should be applied today just boggles the mind.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 18^th, 2009 at 12:40pm

Quote:

Hmmmm Hiroshima, well, you launch a war with a sneak attack on a superior power you are going to get punished.

I see... sneak attack is justification for nuking hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and conventionally bombing hundreds of thousands more... right. Better be careful not to use sneak attacks against your enemies, lest they do the same to you... since they'd be well within their rights... right? Or do such justifications only work one way? Sorry I'm not so clued up on the intricacies of hypocrisy.

And Muslims are supposedly the terrorists of this world? Give me a break.

Quote:

Nazis were not christians.

The German state was just as Christian as any state in the Muslim world today is Islamic. Also there are plenty of Christians who were amongst the highest ranking Nazis. Just because Hitler might have used some Aryan/Nordic mythology to rally nationalist sentiment, doesn't detract from the Christian roots of Germany. Also there's plenty of unmistakeable statements from Hitler himself like: "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." (Adolf Hitler, The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922–August 1939, London: Oxford University Press). Hitler was raised Catholic and never publically announced leaving the Church. And the Nazi party in it's early years at least advocated a reform of Christianity known as "Positive Christianity" (German: Positives Christentum), whose symbol was quite obviously a melding of the crucifix and the swastika:

Quote:

Re Iraq and 'Stan, hysterically exaggerated claims that do not help your rotten cause.

Now Muslim deaths are just 'hysterically exaggerated'...

The simple fact is that hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians have died as a result of the U.S-led invasions of those two countries. Millions more have been displaced. And about a million more starved to death as a result of the sanctions.

Quote:

You didn't mention that millions of people from christian countries protested the war.

That doesn't change what's been done.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 18^th, 2009 at 12:59pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 18^th, 2009 at 12:40pm:

Quote:

Nazis were not christians.

Not to mention the Nazis giving Martin Luther his 'birthday present' on the 10th November 1938.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by mozzaok on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:08pm

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 9:36pm:

Well if you just take out the word mohammed, and change it to jesus, the same would apply, in relation to offering nothing new, or original.

So it is fair enough for Abu to categorise these threads as being disingenuous attempts by christians, to once more run down muslims, which is a very unchrist like attitude to take.

The aspect of mohammeds record of violently spreading his sphere of influence is documented, because he actually is known to have existed, whilst jesus may just be a fictional character, and therefore more likely to eschew the human failings, and ascribe far more godly qualities to his character.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:36pm

mozza, although I applaud you for your even handed attempt to restore some semblance of balance to this discussion, I'd just like to clarify the circumstances under which the Muslims engaged in military campaigns in spreading throughout the Arabian peninsula.

In those days, and in fact, even today, we live in a dog eat dog world, especially on the level of states. If the Muslims did not stand their ground, and even engage in pre-emptive strikes at times, then they would've been wiped out. Indeed, they were almost wiped out quite a few times by the encroaching armies of Arab pagan confederates and their Jewish allies. They were situated between the hostile Arabs to the south, and to the north, by the proxy tribe/states of the Persians and Byzantine Romans, and Medinah was surrounded with traiterous Jewish tribes, who regularly helped the invading Makkans.

The tale that Muslims waged violent campaigns of conquest all over the Arabian peninsula simply aren't true. The Muslims formed their state in Medinah (a city which had absolutely no Muslim inhabitants at the time of the agreement) through negotiation and agreement. They then secured the allegiance of some surrounding tribes, and were attacked by the Arabs from Makkah (their former home, from where they were expelled). Almost every single battle between Medinah and Makkah took place either just outside, or actually in Medinah, against invading Makkan troops.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:41pm

And if Justinian had've succeeded in reunifying the Eastern and Western Roman empires, the Middle East would have had to contend with a reinvigorated (and Christian evangelising) Roman Empire. The fact of just how close Justinian came to succeeding would have still been prominent in the psychs of Middle Eastern people.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by mozzaok on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:44pm

Fair enough Abu, I agree that the context of the time and place of mohammed, was a far more violent world, than any of us could imagine, and was very much a dog, eat dog, world, and any leader who did not display military strength, and employ violence, to maintain their position, would have been either wipes out, or absorbed.

Again I find the christian position totally disingenuous, when they denounce mohammed as a barbarian, and praise bush for taking the war to the middle east, they can see justification for one man's brutality, but not the others.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 6:15pm

helian,

Quote:

And if Justinian had've succeeded in reunifying the Eastern and Western Roman empires, the Middle East would have..

And if the Muslims of Andalus had've met up with the Muslims of Eastern Europe, they would've come together and taken all of Europe... What would've, could've, had've.. wasn't.

mozza,

Quote:

Again I find the christian position totally disingenuous, when they denounce..

Agreed, quite disingenious, especially since at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) and shortly after during the rule of his direct successors, many Christians considered the newly-arrived Muslims to be far less barbaric than their own fellow Christians.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 6:25pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 6:15pm:

helian,

Quote:

And if Justinian had've succeeded in reunifying the Eastern and Western Roman empires, the Middle East would have..

And if the Muslims of Andalus had've met up with the Muslims of Eastern Europe, they would've come together and taken all of Europe... What would've, could've, had've.. wasn't.

But what resulted from the near would'ves, could'ves and had'ves... was a sense of siege.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 8:15am

mozzaok -
Quote:

So it is fair enough for Abu to categorise these threads as being disingenuous attempts by christians, to once more run down muslims, which is a very unchrist like attitude to take.

this thread was put up by me for muslims to share their spiritual words.
I have made no comments here.

In all honesty, I have seen no spirituality here.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 12:10pm

I think you'll find Aboo has been the one taking this topic off topic... with his attacks on Christianity.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 9:36pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 8:15am:

In all honesty, I have seen no spirituality here.

Who's surprised??!

There is no 'spirituality' in Islam. It is about obedience to an oriental potentate called Allan, not about the billowing, expanding spirit that recognises its own divine nature in the created world.

In Islam men are automatons. There is no free will and so there is no dialogue or relationship with the divine, there is no SHARING in the divine with Allan.

There is no spirituality in a creed that puts god so completely outside the world and removes him so completely from creatures. There is nothing in common between Allan and humans. Spirituality is not a word in Islam.

You are projecting, to speak like Freud for a moment.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 9:54pm

It is for incomprehending illiterates to imagine god as an Oriental potentate after he was imagined as a man.

The relationship, the politics, between people is a reflection of how they comprehend god (even atheists have a comprehension of god), another word for universal order, purpose and meaning.

The 30 years war, the French revolution, first and second world wars were, for this reason, major spiritual crises for the Christian west.

Not any massacre, not the conquest of the Hindu Kush, not the Armenian bloodbath of 1915, nothing of any magnitude was ever a spiritual crisis for Islam.

Spint, you are looking for spirituality where it ain't.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 11:09pm

Sprint, I provided you with quite a few rich spiritual quotes, as I guessed though you weren't interested in them sincerely. You merely opened the topic to invite flames and make claims Islam is devoid of spirituality. Sure you play the innocent impartial referee of the thread, who quite clearly did ask people not to resort to such things, but you knew it was going to happen, and seem quite pleased with it.

Since your idea of spirituality is God having offspring, and hanging dead on a piece of wood... then for a surety you are not interested in anything Islam has to offer. It doesn't have fairytales, where you dupe yourself into thinking God can sacrifice himself (the omnipotent creator and sustainer of all existence sacrificing himself?).

In my estimation, words like "Nobody truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for his ownself" are the pinnacle of spirituality. What kind of purer heart can there be than the one which places the needs of his fellow man above his own? Sure we're going to hear the nonsensical rants about "This is only for fellow Muslims", likewise half of the 'spirituality' in the Bible is only for fellow Israelites, does that detract from it's spirituality though? And we both know that In practice Christians don't even manage to implement the lofty spiritual message of their book towards their own fellow Christians, let alone towards all of mankind.

Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from Muhammad's (pbuh) advice that "Whoever believes in God and the last day, should say what is good or keep silent"?? The number of times you've spoken ill of others, their religion and things they hold dear is uncountable. If you truly believe in God, and in a day of reckoning, then I think you definitely have a spiritual message to learn from these words of Muhammad (pbuh). One day, you _will_ be accounted for all you do here, for all you say, and for your treatment of others. Do you feel confident that your manner here is in line with the spiritual teachings of even your own book?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 11:27pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 11:09pm:

Oh please!!!

Tell us what is new in Islam that is not evil and destructive and then we can learn something from it.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 11:29pm

ROTFLMAO

Once again Aboo all you do is attack and once again it is Christianity you target.

Yet your ignorance of the religion is again unbelievable.

I'm Christian yet I don't believe in the Trinity. You don't even understand the concept of the Trinity.
You don't understand the importance of Christ or His nature.

As for... "Nobody truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for his ownself" if I was a Muslim fundamentalist that might mean being a martyr. No thanks.

You cannot truthfully expect anyone to believe that Muslims do not give preferential treatment to fellow Muslims. You may say this is NOT so but it is a reality.

As for this... "And we both know that In practice Christians don't even manage to implement the lofty spiritual message of their book towards their own fellow Christians, let alone towards all of mankind."

Puhlease remove the mote from your own eye first.

As for Moe's secresy act... "Whoever believes in God and the last day, should say what is good or keep silent" no wonder we have problems with Muslim terrorists etc... everyone is silent. FFS... try this instead.
Whoever believes in God and the last day, should tell the truth"

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 11:53pm

soren,

Quote:

Tell us what is new in Islam that is not evil and destructive and then we can learn something from it.

When you bring me Islamic texts that claim God said "Show no mercy, have no pity, kill the old, the young, the children" etc. then you can speak. Until then, anything that exudes from your mouth is nothing but utter bovine faeces.

Grendel,

Quote:

I'm Christian yet I don't believe in the Trinity.

Then you're not really a Christian, according to almost all denominations of Christianity. The trinity is part of the fundamental creed that every mainstream branch of Christianity holds as it's core belief.

If you don't believe in the trinity, then my beliefs about Christ (and that of all Muslims) are probably closer to Christianity than yours.

Quote:

You don't even understand the concept of the Trinity.

I think I understand it quite well, i just don't believe in it, that's all. God the 'father', God the 'son' and God the 'spirit' make up a 'unified Godhead' in which God exists as 3 exppressions of oneness. It is "Clayton's monotheism", the monotheism you have when you're being a polytheist. The hindus and many other polytheists actually subscribe to a similar kind of belief. Practicing polytheism, but claiming it's really just an expression of monotheism. In the one breath recognising the fidelity of monotheism, yet completely sweeping it aside to practice polytheism.

Regardless, the trinity wasn't even mentioned, and since you claim you don't even believe in it, then what's it got to do with our discussion? Whether I understand it or not?

Quote:

You don't understand the importance of Christ or His nature.

You're right, I don't understand the importance Christians attach to him, nor the nature they claim he has. I think it's blasphemous, and I don't know how any human could lower themselves to believe in such things.

Quote:

if I was a Muslim fundamentalist that might mean being a martyr. No thanks

And likewise if I was a Christian fundamentalist, then "Do unto your neighbour as you'd have him do unto you" could mean burning down the abortion clinic next to my house... no thanks.

Quote:

You cannot truthfully expect anyone to believe that Muslims do not give preferential treatment to fellow Muslims. You may say this is NOT so but it is a reality.

Nowhere did I state such a thing. It's a clear fact Muslims give preferential treatment to fellow Muslims. Don't you give preferential treatment to your family? If so, then you can understand the preferential treatment between Muslims.

Quote:

"Whoever believes in God and the last day, should say what is good or keep silent" no wonder we have problems with Muslim terrorists etc... everyone is silent. FFS... try this instead.

It's about speaking good, kind words, not about concealing the truth. Only someone as twisted as you could make that out of those words.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 22^nd, 2009 at 10:06am

LOL

I am really a Christian ::)
That's the problem people keep telling you things and you live in denial.

To be a Christian you only have to believe in Christ and his teachings ::)

Actually the Trinity has only one God not 3... the "expressions" as you put it are descriptions of aspects of God's character/nature. I don't believe in the Trinity doctrine either. Catholics do. You keep referring to Catholicism as Christianity. All the churches that accept the Trinity doctrine have slightly different variations of it. Just as Islam has different variations/interpretations within it.

If you understood the Trinity you wouldn't make the stupid statements you make about it.

Quote:

Regardless, the trinity wasn't even mentioned,

Quote:

Since your idea of spirituality is God having offspring, and hanging dead on a piece of wood... then for a surety you are not interested in anything Islam has to offer. It doesn't have fairytales, where you dupe yourself into thinking God can sacrifice himself (the omnipotent creator and sustainer of all existence sacrificing himself?).

Liar liar pantaloons on fire.
Clearly you don't understand Christ, Christianity or the concept of the Trinity.

Quote:

And likewise if I was a Christian fundamentalist, then "Do unto your neighbour as you'd have him do unto you" could mean burning down the abortion clinic next to my house... no thanks.

LoL well I expected that... another pathetic example... yes some Christians do wrong. That is the nature of man. But in Christian society those people are punished by the law... not heralded as heroes of the faith as was just witnessed in Libya. Kill hundreds of infidels and become a hero.

Under Islam becoming a martyr by killing innocents is acceptable under Christianity killing innocents is not. Killing anyone is not. Muslims go to great lengths to justify why their victims are not innocent and they even look to fellow Muslims as acceptable collateral damage. There's a special place in heaven for them.

Oh and no... I didn't twist anyone's words... you are brainwashed and in denial of the Truth.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Yadda on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 12:08pm

Grendel wrote on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 11:29pm:

I'm 100% with you on this Grendel.

As an analogy ppl, think of God as H2O.

If H2O were God, is a raindrop NOT God?

Is a river NOT God?

Are clouds NOT God?

Is one tiny sea, among the collection of vast oceans, NOT God?

Is a puddle of water outside my house, NOT God?

If H2O were God, all of these manifestations of H2O would still be God, and God would still be one.

If H2O were God, all manifestations of H2O, would still be God.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

God, is spirit.

And we, are spirit, within flesh.

So, where is God???

I'll let you ponder the answer to that question yourself.

In the KJV Bible, a search of the phrase "LORD of hosts", gets 245 hits.

Meditate on that fact.

Our bodies, are the hosts, for God's spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.i

Quote:

As for... "Nobody truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for his ownself" if I was a Muslim fundamentalist that might mean being a martyr. No thanks.

You cannot truthfully expect anyone to believe that Muslims do not give preferential treatment to fellow Muslims. You may say this is NOT so but it is a reality.

As for this... "And we both know that In practice Christians don't even manage to implement the lofty spiritual message of their book towards their own fellow Christians, let alone towards all of mankind."

Puhlease remove the mote from your own eye first.

As for Moe's secresy act... "Whoever believes in God and the last day, should say what is good or keep silent" no wonder we have problems with Muslim terrorists etc... everyone is silent. FFS... try this instead.
Whoever believes in God and the last day, should tell the truth"

Yes he can, because abu is a moslem.

And we, are not.

Where is the concept of universal humanity unambiguously expressed within ISLAM?

It is not.

ISLAMIC foundational scripture itself, screams of the prejudice moslems must exhibit against 'unbelievers'.

Yet moslems, to your face, will deny it.

Because all good moslems are liars, and deceivers [of those outside their ranks].

EXAMPLES FROM THE KORAN,

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051
[i.e. those 'moslems' who make sincere friendships with unbelievers, ARE unbelievers]

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:"
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.028

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html#004.144

And how are all 'unbelievers' to be treated by good moslems?

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 12:56pm

Grendel,

Quote:

I am really a Christian

Don't get me wrong. If you don't believe in the trinity, then I think you are more of a follower of Christ than the trinitarians are, since they ascribe something to God which is just ridiculous. So if you are indeed not trinitarian, then I applaud you for that.

Quote:

Actually the Trinity has only one God not 3... the "expressions" as you put it

Hence the reason I used the term 'expressions'.

It's still a form of polytheism though. Just like the Hindus believing all their idols are expressions of the divine being, is also polytheism. Or the Zoroastrians believing their dualistic God are just the two expressions of the one divine being, is also polytheism... and so on. 2, 3, 3000, they all fall short, even if only slightly of recognising the absolute oneness of God.

Quote:

Catholics do. You keep referring to Catholicism as Christianity.

Perhaps because they are Christians? In fact the largest and most historical group of Christians? Besides, Orthodox and most Protestant groups also believe in the trinity, which we've been through before.

Quote:

All the churches that accept the Trinity doctrine have slightly different variations of it

The vast majority follow the Nicean declaration, which we've been through before.

Quote:

Just as Islam has different variations/interpretations within it.

Not on central matter like that. All Muslims unanimously agree that God is absolute oneness, having no co-gods, no co-expressions, no co-beings of any form, shape or description whatsoever. Anyone who does not believe this, is not a Muslim.

Quote:

If you understood the Trinity you wouldn't make the stupid statements you make about it.

For someone who doesn't believe in it... you sure seem to want to defend it. As I said, I understand it, I just still think it's polytheism. Anything other than belief in absolute unadulterated oneness, is polytheism. No matter how minor, abstract or esoteric it is, it's still polytheism. Jesus (pbuh) worshipped God, and trinitarians worship him. Therefore they place an intermediary between themselves and their creator. The fact they claim he is God, makes no difference, in fact that just clearly exposes their polytheistic beliefs. A true monotheist does not worship something which itself worships something, he worships only the one who worships no other.

Quote:

LoL well I expected that... another pathetic example... yes some Christians do wrong. That is the nature of man.

Nature of man, or nature of Christians? When Muslims do wrong, you seem to think it's about the religion, and not about the flawed human being... Bit hypocritical fi you ask me..

Either way, I merely wrote that, to indicate how childishly stupid yuor comment was. Think about it.

Quote:

But in Christian society those people are punished by the law... not heralded as heroes of the faith as was just witnessed in Libya. Kill hundreds of infidels and become a hero.

When Western soldiers return home, after having killed, raped and pillaged Muslims, they get hero's welcomes too.. So nothing really uneven there.

Besides, the poor guy is dying, the Scots are indeed a merciful and noble people.

Quote:

Under Islam becoming a martyr by killing innocents is acceptable under Christianity killing innocents is not.

This simply isn't true. Islam specifically forbids killing of non-combatants. Muhammad (pbuh) clearly forbade it in his sayings. Those who do so don't do it because they're flawed humans though right? It's because they're Muslims.. only Christians are afforded such a dispensation.

Actually Christianity doesn't say anyhting about killing of innocents, neither forbids nor condones... but the OT certainly does condone.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 10:16pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 21^st, 2009 at 11:53pm:

soren,

Quote:

Tell us what is new in Islam that is not evil and destructive and then we can learn something from it.

Faulks, who turned to the Koran while researching his latest novel, said: 'It’s a depressing book. It really is. It’s just the rantings of a schizophrenic. It’s very one-dimensional, and people talk about the beauty of the Arabic and so on, but the English translation I read was, from a literary point of view, very disappointing.

'There is also the barrenness of the message,' he told The Sunday Times. 'I mean, there are some bits about diet, you know, the equivalent of the Old Testament, which is also crazy.

'But the great thing about the Old Testament is that it does have these incredible stories. Of the 100 greatest stories ever told, 99 are probably in the Old Testament and the other is in Homer.

'With the Koran there are no stories. And it has no ethical dimension like the New Testament, no new plan for life. It says ‘the Jews and the Christians were along the right tracks, but actually, they were wrong and I’m right, and if you don’t believe me, tough — you’ll burn for ever'. That’s basically the message of the book.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208629/Author-Sebastian-Faulks-risks-Muslim-fury-describing-Koran-depressing-rantings-schizophrenic.html#ixzz0P6Jz93Y4

“Jesus, unlike Muhammad, had interesting things to say,” Faulks said.

“He proposed a revolutionary way of looking at the world: love your neighbour; love your enemy; the meek shall inherit the earth. Muhammad had nothing to say to the world other than, ‘If you don’t believe in God you will burn for ever’.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6806488.ece

ANd waddaya know, the imam's rolled out with the usual nonsense:

Ajmal Masroor, an imam and spokesman for the Islamic Society of Britain said Faulk's statements ran the risk of stirring religious hatred against Muslims.
'Attacks on Islam are nothing new, but the danger is this will have a 'drip, drip' effect. People don't seem to understand the consequences of saying things like this could be quite severe. History tells us it can encourage hatred.'

Yeah, hatred BY Muslims. Can't be critical of Islam, or god forbid, dislike it or find it tedious and empty. That's an attack. "Ve haf vays to make youse love us, inshallan."

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 10:26pm

As I said, utter bovine faeces.

Come on, literary reviews from trashy tabloids? Lift your standards a little soren.

For every Faulk, there's thousands who've read the Qur'an (even in the insuffient English translations) and have been so touched and moved by it, have embraced Islam. Too bad you can only hear the Faulks of this world... otherwise you might get a more objective view.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 24^th, 2009 at 10:42pm

The book is empty and boring. There is nothing in it except what Faulks summarised above. It is astonishingly repetitive, disjointed, it is a rambling mish-mash and a rant. Most Muslims have never read it. If they dip into it they soon prefer to learn it by heart in archaic Arabic, a language they do not understand, than to read it in the language they do. It is, as I said, inexplicably and astonishingly disjointed, repetitive and pointless .
And there is nothing new in it. Nothing.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 12:12am

Quote:

The book is empty and boring. There is nothing in it except what Faulks summarised above. It is astonishingly repetitive, disjointed, it is a rambling mish-mash and a rant

So I take it you've read it? After all, who would give such an authoritative review without actually having read it... Other than a complete dolt.

And I mean read it, not just come across a few selective quotes on jihadwatch...

Quote:

Most Muslims have never read it

I have read it, and continue to read it daily. And compared to most Muslims I know, I'd consider myself fairly slack..

Quote:

If they dip into it they soon prefer to learn it by heart in archaic Arabic, a language they do not understand

I do prefer to read it in Arabic, not because I don't understand it, but because it's meaning is so much more intense in Arabic. There are very few archaic terms in the Qur'an. Most of the vocab used in the Qur'an, can be heard on al-Jazeerah or any other daily news channel.

Quote:

than to read it in the language they do. It is, as I said, inexplicably and astonishingly disjointed, repetitive and pointless

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Your eyes and heart are sealed, so it's not surprising it does not reach you. You are not interested in hearing what the Qur'an or Islam has to say from the outset, and made up your mind, probably long before you even heard a single verse of the Qur'an.

Quote:

And there is nothing new in it. Nothing.

I'm sure any book you can lay your hands on has something new in it. This statement just indicates how blinded you are by your absolutism. So when the Qur'an predicted the battle between the Romans and the Persians, in which the Romans won, that was not new? Was already known? When it explained the stages of foetal development that was already known? When it said the universe was expanding, that was already known? When it predicted the sun will one day collapse in on itself, that was already known/? I think not. I think you are indeed someone with a diseased heart. Consumed and overwhelmed by your own hatred and prejudice, so as to suspend all reason and logic from penetrating your view of Islam. I pity you.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 12:37am

Be careful not to over-egg the cake, Abu. There are other spiritual texts which make predictions about the fate of the world... A Buddhist belief that the earth will be consumed by fire from the sun for example... You could stretch that to say the enlightened ones foresaw the sun becoming a red giant, destroying the earth, before it collapses. Even the (embarrassing) Book of Revelations dabbles in futurism... Without even mentioning non-religious futurist writers like Nostradamus.

Every now and then futurist writers jag one or two.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by mozzaok on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 2:26am

Quote:

Well there is a paradox at play if you really believe that Abu.
That god could seal someone off from exploring new ideas, for that is the very thing that all religions demand from their faithful, and a profound reason why many thereby reject all religions as merely dogmatism.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:30am

helian,

Quote:

Be careful not to over-egg the cake, Abu. There are other spiritual texts which make predictions about the fate of the world

That's right there are. I, however, am not making an absurd claim that those texts contain nothing new, nor am I claiming they are devoid of spiritual or moral or prophetic value.

mozzaok,

Quote:

Well there is a paradox at play if you really believe that Abu.
That god could seal someone off from exploring new ideas,

He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path).

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:02am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:30am:

helian,

Quote:

Be careful not to over-egg the cake, Abu. There are other spiritual texts which make predictions about the fate of the world

That's right there are. I, however, am not making an absurd claim that those texts contain nothing new, nor am I claiming they are devoid of spiritual or moral or prophetic value.

No, you're not... And if we're talking about 'nothing new under the sun', an early Buddhist could have been forgiven for thinking that the founding Christian fathers had ripped off Buddhism.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:23am

The fact is all human being, religions, cultures, scientists, musicians, artists, anyone who 'comes up with stuff' is inspired by and influenced by those who preceded them. Is this what you mean to convey?

The Christians do have some ugly arrogance regarding their claim to being originators of ideas, whilst everyone else just supposedly copied. Even their claims about science are ridiculous, that Islamic scientists merely copied the works of their predecessors, whilst Christian/European scientists made real innovations.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:27am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:23am:

Exactly... and, of course.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Grendel on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 11:50am

Quote:

The Christians do have some ugly arrogance regarding their claim to being originators of ideas, whilst everyone else just supposedly copied. Even their claims about science are ridiculous, that Islamic scientists merely copied the works of their predecessors, whilst Christian/European scientists made real innovations.

Obviously written by someone delusional and paranoid.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:27am:

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:23am:

Exactly... and, of course.

None of this means, of course, that the achievements or indeed the motivations of "all human being, religions, cultures, scientists, musicians, artists, anyone who 'comes up with stuff' " is equal.

That we have all had predecessors does not mean that we are acheiving or contributing equally.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Jan 27^th, 2010 at 5:25pm

It is narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: "A man gave as a gift to the Messenger of Allah a slave who was called Mid'am. Whilst Mid'am was bringing down a saddle for the Messenger of Allah an arrow came out of nowhere and killed him.

The people said, "How fortunate he is! Paradise is his," but the Messenger of Allah said, "No, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, the cloak which he took from the war-booty on the day of Khaybar before the booty had been shared out will burn him with fire."

When the people heard that, a man came and brought one or two shoelaces to the Prophet and said, "A shoelace of fire" or "Two shoelaces of fire."

Bukhari & Muslim

And that's why Muslulmans now wear slippers.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 2:41pm

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2010 at 5:25pm:

I'd like to pose you a riddle, Soren: what do you think the above passage means?

Quite seriously. There's a point in there somewhere. What do you think it is?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 7:58pm

It means EXACTLY what it says.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 10:02am

Soren wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 7:58pm:

It means EXACTLY what it says.

If you believe that, you're as fundamentalist as those you seek to oppose, and in fact, you're swallowing their poison.

The passage you've quoted is allegorical. The Koran is a text like any other. There's no need to get hysterical about it - you might as well get in a tizz over a Hallmark card.

Well, a Greek myth, or an Aboriginal Dreaming story, or a parable, or a Grimm's fairy tale.

You're an intelligent person, Soren. You've been gifted with an education. You've been taught to read, which places you in a better position than many people in the world today.

So using these gifts, I ask you: what do you think the passage actually means?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 10:32am

karnal - so midam was a slave who was killed by an arrow came from nowhere .
moh said the slave took a cloak off a dead enemy before the spoils of war were divided.
moh said the slave stole, i assume being killed is the penalty.

moh then said the stolen cloak will burn the guy.
the threat of fire is common in the koran. maybe he meant the guilt of the stolen cloak convicts him ?

some other guy brings a shoelace or two and says perhaps the shoelaces are fire too.
were they the slaves shoelaces?

the text shows no remorse, compassion or relationships.
there is no connection, nothing to be gleamed from it but that allah will kill every thief, then burn them afterwards by their stolen goods.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:01pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 10:32am:

So you think it's about theft. Interesting. This shows how texts can reveal different layers of meaning to different people.

I'd say the fire is allegorical - as with the war-booty, and the arrow coming out of nowhere.

Allegorical texts - like poetry - require a different form of reading to text books. You need to let the words settle and think deeply about them. Sometimes, you need to feel them.

If you just want a quick internet giggle, have one.

But if you want to know more about the world, all the interesting texts that have been left for us - but most importantly, yourself - you need to look deeper.

Of course, they won't tell you this on Today Tonight.

But have another look. What do you think?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:14pm

how do you interperet it karnal?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:32pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:14pm:

how do you interperet it karnal?

I'd be a bit presumptious of me to draw first, SC.

But on a side note, what do you think the parable of the mustard seed is about?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:39pm

feel free to start a thread on it karnal.

i'm a bit anal about keeping threads ontopic

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 1:30pm

I think, on one level, you're perfectly right: ill-gotten gains will come back to haunt you.

The mustard seed parable shows how a huge tree can grow from a tiny seed.

The guy gives Moh his shoelace - possibly the only posession he could spare - as a sacrifice. Giving up material things is important if you want to progress spiritually.

Likewise, a small act, thought or urge that you might think nothing of at the time can grow into a huge problem in your life. A mustard seed can grow up big. A puff of fire behind the school toilets can give you lung cancer if you get hooked.

But on another level, the saddle, the arrow, and the cloak of fire point to different references.

You remember the Jesus quote about a camel passing through the eye of a needle?

Putting this into its historical context, there was a temple in (I think) Jerusalem, which had a similar name in Hebrew to needle. The temple had a very low gate. To enter the gate (or eye) on a camel, the camel had to bend down low. In this reading, Jesus wasn't saying that it's impossible for the rich to enter the Kingdom, he was saying that they have to get down on their knees first - that they have to learn humility.

Now on another level, both camel and needle are Hebrew letters. In the Kabalistic system, Hebrew letters also represent numbers, and the use of these syllables as sounds were used as a Jewish form of mantra - a way of pronouncing the unpronouncable names of God. Much of the Bible talks about singing the praises of God, or rejoicing in His name. There are certain Hebrew vowel sounds that are used to obtain particular spiritual effects. The Egyptians had a similar system (which Moses was initiated into), and the Jews may well have borrowed this from them.

My point is this: spiritual texts are designed to contain different messages to different levels of readers. Many Muslims may therefore read the above and vow never to steal cloaks.

I don't know about the shoelaces, but the Christian puritans never wore buttons - too flashy. They wanted to be modest and simple, so their cloaks used hooks. To enter a mosque or most Muslim homes and shops, you have to take off your shoes. Shoelaces are harder to untie than pulling off slippers - so I'd say that this is the real reason for slippers: giving up your shoelaces demonstrates your willingness to pray more at the mosque.

The people in the story are swapping their worldly "shoelaces" so that they don't get burned by their past deeds.

This is essentially the message of every religion I can think of.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 2:16pm

Correction to the above: Hebrew doesn't contain "vowel sounds."

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by sprintcyclist on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 3:05pm

Well done karnal - thanks

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 7:34pm

Karnal,
marvellous hermeneutical discourse. Deft references to the joos, the inventors of hermeneutics, of interpretive conversation, especially with god. Pity that this central, crucial element is forbidden by Islam. There is no conversation with Allan. There is no interpretation. There is no contextual analysis, hermeneutics, dance, unfolding, new horizons, metaphore and uncovering of hidden meaning and all that. There is cold, Arabic literalism, since the Koran is an eternal book, no word or letter to be understood in any way except as Mohammed (is contrued to have) meant it. (the bracketed bit must remain invisible and unthinkable to Muslims, on pain of death).

This is why islam is a parody. It does not understand anything except blind obedience. But mere obedience in religion is to miss the point entirely. In military matters, it is a first principle. In religion, it is not. Islam misses the point entirely. If it has any 'spiritual' meaning, it is completely unintended.

So the burning shoelaces mean exactly what they say. There is no human action that is not regulated by islam. You are not here to understand, you are here to submit. Understanding and meaning do not come into it. Conscience does not come into it. To ask, 'What do you think it means' is blasphemy in the making.

.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm

Soren wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 7:34pm:

As I said before, Soren, you're swallowing fundamentalist poison if you believe all this. I thought the Christians invented hermeneutics. Good on the Joos if they did!

All texts require a form of hermeneutics (or a way of interpreting). I believe there are differences between the Sunni and Shi'ite traditions (with the Shi'ites being more inclined to rely on interpretations from Mullahs). However, this doesn't change the fact that the Koran is a mystical book, and not a legal document.

If you talked to any educated Muslim (and there are a few), they'd tell you that there's much to interpret in their faith - or that there's much to wonder about. There is a big strain of Muslim poetry where existential questions are considered. Gibran is just one poet - I don't think the Prophet, for example, mentions Mohammed, Allah, or any laws at all.

But why care what others do with books? I've watched numerous quacks on Christian TV parody the Bible with their ideas about what Jesus taught. The problem here is the narrow interpretation, not the text itself.

If Hindus all believed that their main text, the Bhagavad Gita was just about a historical war between the Pandavas and the Kauravas, and that the god Krishna demanded that everyone, like Arjuna, fight and kill their family members, India would be the most warlike nation on earth.

But it's not. The family members are the five senses and the delusion they cause us. We identify so strongly with them, but they are not us, and this identification - these strongly held beliefs, ideals, egotistical, maniacal whims and convictions are, in the end, illusions. It's up to us to fight them - no one else can do it for us.

Likewise, there's a lot in the Koran about fighting, but not necessarily others. It's about fighting forces within yourself. The arrow out of nowhere, the war booty, the cloak of fire.

I don't read Arabic, but I imagine these words contain references to other ideas. To really interpret, you need to know the language and the cultural references.

But alas, that's something we're a bit ignorant about - wouldn't you say, Soren?

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:23pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm:

As I said before, you're swallowing fundamentalist poison if you believe all this. I thought the Christians invented hermeneutics. Good on the Joos if they did.

...

If you talked to any educated Muslim (and there are many), they'd tell you that there's much to interpret in their faith -

There's the rub - those hermeneutically sensitive educated muslims don't need to talk to me - they need to talk to those fundamentalists whose 'poison' is to deny interptretation. But they don't dare. Hermeneutic interpretation of the Koran, a la rabbi, is anathema to islam. The whole point of Islamic teaching is NOT TO INTERPRET BUT TO SUBMIT. There is NO conversation with Allan.

Yo the Abus of this world, hermeneutics is a joo conspiracy, like everything that hinders submission.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:17pm

Soren wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm:

You were too quick on the uptake for my edit.

I think you're right about submitting - after all, from what I've been told, Islam does mean submission to God.

But to think there's no conversation is a mistake. It's a different form of conversation. We can get caught up in words - so much that we become a slave to our chattering minds.

God is silence, not words. The words are there to help you get there.

If you don't think these conversations go on within Islam, you're mistaken.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:51pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:17pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm:

I am not mistaken. God is not silence. God is a 'still, small voice'. Look it up.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 8:03pm

Well, I'm glad there's a place God can be "looked up."

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by soren on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 9:02pm

Fine, don't look it up.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 9:27pm

Oh no, I'm looking it up...

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 11:15pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:17pm:

God is silence, not words. The words are there to help you get there.

Paraphrasing Meister Eckhart's philosophy... As 'god' is all, he cannot be defined. As anything that defines 'god' must necessarily be less than god's totality.

Quote:

God cannot be referred to as "good", "better", or best because He is above all things. If a man says that God is wise, the man is lying because anything that is wise can become wiser. Anything that a man might say about God is incorrect, even calling Him by the name of God.

I have always liked the idea of the Judaic tradition which taught that humankind could engage in a 'conversation' with god, including debating, disagreeing and haggling with the almighty. And when the texts have it that god answers, it can be profoundly beautiful in its pathos, such as in the Book of Job 38 & 39. Those chapters have god humbling Job through a series of questions and you don't have to believe in god to understand that they can serve as a reminder to us all of our contingency, the limits of our capacity to know the greatest truths and the wisdom of humility.

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by helian on Mar 14^th, 2010 at 11:15am

Of course, you do have to wonder why the almighty, having condescended to speak directly to Job about the making and nature of the cosmos, felt the need to lie about its structure, when he could have said this....

Quote:

Just - re-member that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
and revolving at 900 miles an hour,
It's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned,
the sun that is the source of all our power.
The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
are moving at a million miles a day,
In the outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour,
of the Galaxy we call the Milky Way.
Our Galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars,
it's 100,000 light-years side-to-side,
It bulges in the middle, 16,000 light-years thick,
but out by us it's just 3000 light-years wide.
We're 30,000 light-years from galactic central point,
we go round every 200 million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
in this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
in all of the directions it can whizz,
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know,
twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
how amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
because there's bugger all down here on Earth.

galaxy

;D

Title: Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Post by Karnal on Mar 15^th, 2010 at 12:47pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 11:15pm:

I've always like the Judaic tradition which taught that G-d is unrepresentable, un-nameable, and possibly unknowable. In most Jewish traditions it's a blasphemy to say what God thinks or believes on one matter or another.

So in this sense, it's almost futile to talk about God. Unlike atheists, I do think there's something there, but I don't think it's outside of ourselves.

As Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas (and I'm paraphrasing - but not much): if you think the Kingdom is in the air, the birds will proceed you. If you think the Kingdom is in the sea, the fish will proceed you. The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and outside of you.

Sadly, it's in certain people's interests to have a god that exists outside, who has a "will" that can be interpreted, and a set of laws that can be enforced.

I don't know what someone like Richard Dawkins would think of this - he'd probably say it's a moot point. He expects existence to be quantified, which is impossible to do with the subjective. Well, we do have language (including metaphor), so it's almost impossible.

If the Kingdom of Heaven is within, it will never able to be measured through the senses. And if it's the most important persuit we can make, this casts a shadow on the empirical sciences' ability to discover the source of happiness.

In Islam, the path to peace is submission to God. This is one path. Alcoholics Anonomous teaches a very similar path in "we made a decision to turn our will over to the care of God as we understood Him." Here, surrendering your will is the way to restore your "sanity".

It's not necessarily about obeying all these rules and regulations - the rules are meant to get you there.

There are, of course, other paths. Meditation is one, and there are also meditative streams and techniques within Islam.

I don't think you can ever come to terms with yourself (or the Kingdom of Heaven) with anger and pride (which is why they are listed as deadly sins). If your enemy exists outside yourself, it will always be there - you'll never get rid of it. If you do defeat them in battle, the enemy will shift and a new one will emerge.

Rebutting others' paths is futile. It is an excercise in narcissism. It rarely - if ever - changes them, and is all about boosting your own ego.

Our wars and petty skirmishes will be the dust of history, and if we don't even remember the Vietnam war, they'll never be remembered. They will just resurface again and again and again.

However, if we seek to defeat the enemies within, our goals are clearer. I'm not sure if we can every fully defeat them all - I believe some have, so I guess there's hope for us all. But the jihad is not an external battle. Yes, you can fight injustice on the outside, but the real battle exists within.