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Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1250746280 Message started by abu_rashid on Aug 20th, 2009 at 3:31pm |
Title: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 20th, 2009 at 3:31pm
Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land
Wednesday August 19, 2009 08:52 by By: Jonathan Cook - amin.org Privatization to subvert Palestinian hopes of restitution Amin Muhammad Ali, a 74-year-old refugee from a destroyed Palestinian village in northern Israel, says he only feels truly at peace when he stands among his ancestors’ graves. The cemetery, surrounded on all sides by Jewish homes and farms, is a small time capsule, transporting Mr Muhammad Ali -- known to everyone as Abu Arab -- back to the days when this place was known by an Arabic name, Saffuriya, rather than its current Hebrew name, Tzipori. Unlike most of the Palestinian refugees forced outside Israel’s borders by the 1948 war that led to the creation of the Jewish state, Abu Arab and his family fled nearby, to a neighborhood of Nazareth. Refused the right to return to his childhood home, which was razed along with the rest of Saffuriya, he watched as the fields once owned by his parents were slowly taken over by Jewish immigrants, mostly from eastern Europe. Today only Saffuriya’s cemetery remains untouched. Despite the loss of their village, the 4,500 refugees from Saffuriya and their descendants have clung to one hope: that the Jewish newcomers could not buy their land, only lease it temporarily from the state. According to international law, Israel holds the property of more than four million Palestinian refugees in custodianship, until a final peace deal determines whether some or all of them will be allowed back to their 400-plus destroyed Palestinian villages or are compensated for their loss. But last week, in a violation of international law and the refugees’ property rights that went unnoticed both inside Israel and abroad, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, forced through a revolutionary land reform. The new law begins a process of creeping privatisation of much of Israel’s developed land, including refugee property, said Oren Yiftachel, a geographer at Ben Gurion University in Beersheva. Mr Netanyahu and the bill's supporters argue that the law will cut out a whole level of state bureaucracy, make land transactions simpler and more efficient and cut house prices. In practice, it will mean that the 200 Jewish families of Tzipori will be able to buy their homes, including a new cluster of bungalows that is being completed on land next to the cemetery that belonged to Abu Arab’s parents. The privatisation of Tzipori’s refugee land will remove it from the control of an official known as the Custodian of Absentee Property, who is supposed to safeguard it for the refugees. “Now the refugees will no longer have a single address -- Israel -- for our claims,” said Abu Arab. “We will have to make our case individually against many hundreds of thousands of private homeowners.” He added: “Israel is like a thief who wants to hide his loot. Instead of putting the stolen goods in one box, he moves it to 700 different boxes so it cannot be found.” Mr Netanyahu was given a rough ride by Israeli legislators over the reform, though concern about the refugees’ rights was not among the reasons for their protests. Last month, he had to pull the bill at the last minute as its defeat threatened to bring down the government. He forced it through on a second attempt last week but only after he had warned his coalition partners that they would be dismissed if they voted against it. A broad coalition of opposition had formed to what was seen as a reversal of a central tenet of Zionism: that the territory Israel acquired in 1948 exists for the benefit not of Israelis but of Jews around the world. In that spirit, Israel’s founders nationalised not only the refugees’ property but also vast swathes of land they confiscated from the remaining Palestinian minority who gained citizenship and now comprise a fifth of the population. By the 1970s, 93 per cent of Israel’s territory was in the hands of the state. The disquiet provoked by Mr Netanyahu’s privatisation came from a variety of sources: the religious right believes the law contravenes a Biblical injunction not to sell land promised by God; environmentalists are concerned that developers will tear apart the Israeli countryside; and Zionists publicly fear that oil-rich sheikhs from the Gulf will buy up the country. Arguments from the Palestinian minority’s leaders against the reform, meanwhile, were ignored -- until Hizbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah, added his voice at the weekend. In a statement, he warned that the law “validates and perpetuates the crime of land and property theft from the Palestinian refugees of the 1948 Nakba”. Suhad Bishara, a lawyer from the Adalah legal centre for Israel’s Palestinian minority, said the law had been carefully drafted to ensure that foreigners, including wealthy sheikhs, cannot buy land inside Israel. “Only Israeli citizens and anyone who can come to Israel under the Law of Return -- that is, any Jew -- can buy the lands on offer, so no ‘foreigner’ will be eligible.” Another provision in the law means that even internal refugees like Abu Arab, who has Israeli citizenship, will be prevented from buying back land that rightfully belongs to them, Ms Bishara said. TBC... |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 20th, 2009 at 3:32pm
“As is the case now in terms of leasing land,” she explained, “admissibility to buy land in rural communities like Tzipori will be determined by a selection committee whose job it will be to frustrate applications from Arab citizens.”
Supporters of the law have still had to allay the Jewish opposition’s concerns. Mr Netanyahu has repeatedly claimed that only a tiny proportion of Israeli territory -- about four per cent -- is up for privatisation. But, according to Mr Yiftachel, who lobbied against the reform, that means about half of Israel’s developed land will be available for purchase over the next few years. And he suspects privatisation will not stop there. “Once this red line has been crossed, there is nothing to stop the government passing another law next year approving the privatisation of the rest of the developed areas,” he said. Ms Bishara said among the first refugee properties that would be put on the market were those in Israel’s cities, such as Jaffa, Acre, Tiberias, Haifa and Lod, followed by homes in many of the destroyed villages like Saffuriya. She said Adalah was already preparing an appeal to the Supreme Court on behalf of the refugees, and if unsuccessful would then take the matter to international courts. Adalah has received inquiries from hundreds of Palestinian refugees from around the world asking what they can do to stop Israel selling their properties. “Many of them expressed an interest in suing Israel,” she said. * Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His latest book, released this month, is “Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in Human Despair” (Zed Books). His website is www.jkcook.net. - mail@jkcook.net |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Yadda on Aug 20th, 2009 at 3:58pm
Israeli Arabs had their chance.
They could have worked together with the Jewish people, to build a nation. But again, and again, many chose to support the moslem insurgencies and wars against Israel. In the middle east, as elsewhere, good fences make good neighbours. .....especially when your neighbours behave like rabid dogs.i+++++++++iPsalms 28:3 Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts. 4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:42pm
As the article points out, even those Palestinians who remained inside the new state of Israel, and who are Israeli citizens, are forbidden from returning to their villages, in which they grew up, simple because of their ethnicity. They are ethnically Arab, which means inside Israel, they cannot enter villages, their ancestors lived in for well over 1000 years... lest they covet having their former homes back...
This is what you support? This is what you think is righteous? You are a nutcase who is blinded by his love for a certain ethnicity (ie. God's chosen ones), into accepting any level of evil possible, simply because it's done by God's chosen ones.... You speak about accepting evil so much Yadda, yet you accept so much evil, so deep into your heart, you're completely blinded by the nature of it. For you, evil is decided by who does it, rather than what it is. You completely blind yourself to what it is, and are only concerned with who perpetrated it. This is a regular occurence with you. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by mantra on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:47pm Quote:
If the Jews are so all embracing of Muslims Yadda - why have so many of them fled Israel over the past 60 years? The refugee numbers are into the millions. People don't flee their homeland unless there's a good reason. Suicide bombing commenced less than 20 years ago - the Palestinians didn't have the sophisticated armory that the Israelis have. Abu bought up a relevant point in another thread - how would you react if your homeland was invaded and then possessed? You would fight your enemies with whatever means you had available. It's unfortunate that their quest to protect what little they have left has been all consuming and destroyed their lives and others - but their battle with the Jews hasn't been one sided. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 20th, 2009 at 6:08pm Quote:
No, not Yadda, he'd "work together with the invaders, to build a new nation" ;D |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Yadda on Aug 20th, 2009 at 7:19pm abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2009 at 6:08pm:
"Some ebil Zionists took our land!!!! ....Aaaaaaarrrrrgh! ....Aaaaaaarrrrrgh! ....Aaaaaaarrrrrgh!" ???? Did you hear that LORD? .....Yes, Yadda. Its just those pesky moslem hypocrites again! "While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went along with him till we reached Bait-al-Midras (a place where the Torah used to be recited and all the Jews of the town used to gather). The Prophet stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l-Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you from,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." " http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/085.sbt.html#009.085.077 "While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went out with him till we came to Bait-al-Midras. The Prophet stood up there and called them, saying, "O assembly of Jews! Surrender to Allah (embrace Islam) and you will be safe!" They said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-al-Qasim" Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want; embrace Islam and you will be safe." They said, "You have conveyed the message, O Aba-al-Qasim." Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want," and repeated his words for the third time and added, "Know that the earth is for Allah and I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you has property he should sell it, otherwise, know that the land is for Allah and His Apostle." " http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/092.sbt.html#009.092.447 |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 20th, 2009 at 11:29pm
At least he gave them the option to actually sell their land... no such luck for the Palestinians.
Besides, the Jews were allying with the invading Makkans, so they got what they deserved for their betrayals, actually they got much more than they deserved (ie. the courtesy of being able to sell their land). Another point, the Jews never ruled Arabia they were just refugees/travellers there, the Muslims ruled Palestine for over 1200 years, longer than both Jewish kingdoms combined. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Yadda on Aug 21st, 2009 at 8:20am mantra wrote on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:47pm:
mantra, I'm sorry. I know your inclination [your prejudice] to support those poor 'Palestinians', in their dispute with Israel, so i am not going to respond to you here. And i state [for others] that i have responded to you, on this very issue, previously, in other threads. [mantra, I don't condemn your prejudice. I acknowledge that you have every right to express it. And i concede that my own prejudice, is one that is opposite to your own.] |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Yadda on Aug 21st, 2009 at 9:19am abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20th, 2009 at 11:29pm:
No. That was merely the PERCEPTION, which the authors of the Hadith wanted to portray [in my opinion]. Quote:
On both counts, knowing moslem mendacity, i don't believe so. Part 162 - A. Y. Ali's Quran http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx45Fon72-0 Demonstrating the intellectual hypocrisy, falseness, of the translators and commentators, of the Koran. Quote:
Moslem tyranny is a virtue? That is what you are declaring / suggesting. abu, Why is it that moslems never mention, completely passover, that centuries before the Christian Crusades, that ISLAMIC 'missionaries' overran the Christian Holy lands in the 700's, with the sword, in their own 'crusade' for Allah? Q. Did the ISLAMIC 'missionaries' purchase the land from the peaceful Christian inhabitants? A. No. Those ISLAMIC 'missionaries' then continued their ISLAMIC 'Crusade' into North Africa, then Spain, and some of southern Europe. And i say it again, all at the point of a sword. So it is rich, for those moslems [mostly from Jordan] to whine, when as a consequence of a war [a recognised 'RESET BUTTON' to property rights], property rights are reset, in favour of the original owners of land [the Jewish people]. The Arab 'refugees' from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, could easily have been resettled within neighbouring Arab [moslem] lands. But no. The Arabs were allotted the land of the BMP, Transjorden, east of the river Jordan. .....WHERE, [BY AGREEMENT WITH THE ARABS OF THE AREA], JEWS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SETTLE. Listen up..... 'PALESTINIANS' HAVE A HOMELAND. JORDAN, IS THE 'PALESTINIAN' HOMELAND. Zionism http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1228438975/1#1 abu, I know that local moslems WILL NEVER ACCEPT the existence of the Jewish state Israel, in their midst. And i know that there is going to be a blood bath in the region, because of moslem intransigence. And the Jewish people, will again become the scapegoats when that blood bath occurs. Dictionary, scapegoat = = 1 a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings or mistakes of others. 2 (in the Bible) a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16). Part 172 - Jihad and Crusades http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8mhRh1y79I Part 168 - Clash of Civilizations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W2LfNh_xC0 "Like as a woman with child...." http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231830268/0#0 ZION SHALL BE REDEEMED WITH JUDGEMENT http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1214199336/113#113 |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by mantra on Aug 21st, 2009 at 9:22am Quote:
I am not prejudiced Yadda - I try to see both sides which you as a Christian don't. This always surprises me when I hear how condemnatory "good" Christians are. You didn't answer my question - so it means that I'm right. :) I have no sympathy for militant Muslims and the same can be said for zionists, but as far as the rest of the moderate Jewish and Muslim population goes - they pose no threat and want to live peacefully the way most of us do. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Yadda on Aug 21st, 2009 at 9:41am mantra wrote on Aug 21st, 2009 at 9:22am:
mantra, I still find it difficult to credit that such views are widely held. But i know that they are. All i can attribute these perceptions to, is your wilful ignorance, of what REAL ISLAM truly represents. And i find no excuse for your wilful ignorance, given that much information is available today to everyone, to anyone who seeks to critically study, and to inform themselves, about the history, and life doctrines of ISLAM, just a little. From the Hadith..... "...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260 |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 21st, 2009 at 5:41pm
Yadda,
Quote:
If you had even the faintest idea about history, you'd know that Palestine remained predominantly Christian for at least the first 100-200 years of it's coming under Islamic rule. The Zionist propagandists won't mention that though, because it flies in the face of all the garbage about how Muslims supposedly massacred all the Christians and took their land... After 200 years, the Christians had begun slowly converting to Islam, and that's how Palestine because a predominantly Muslim populated land. So there was no need to purchase the land, they already owned it. Unless you consider that a Christian converting to Islam must sell his land to himself or something? Quote:
Muslims came into Europe (Vandalucia) on the boats of Christians. not at the point of a sword. Again, you do have a lot of history to read. Quote:
The idea that Palestinians are originally from Jordan is just ridiculous. Prior to the beginning of the Hejaz railway project (ie. late 19th century), 'Jordan' was barely even populated. Amman was just a tiny little village, with no more than a few hundred inhabitants. Again, Zionist propaganda has led you astray. You are a gullible fool. Quote:
As for your little propaganda maps, which have been refuted already enough times on this forum. I'd just like you to tell me, what was the name of the partition plan that supposedly gave all of Palestine to the Jews, and Transjordan to the Arabs? The Peel plan, the U.N partition plan etc. all gave parts of Palestine to Jews and Arabs, Transjordan was never even remotely mentioned in any of the partition plans, other than to say it was completeely excluded. Again, you speak nothing but lies. You have invented an imaginary partition plan that supposedly gave all of Palestine to the Jews... when it never existed, except in the Zionist propaganda sites that you've deluded yourself with. Again, I ask you, what is the name of this supposed partition plan? And even if you can come up with one, which you cannot, it was never even adopted by anyone... so speaking about it is just absolute moot. Quote:
That's right. So anyone who supports one, just supports continual war. Do you support a Muslim state inside Australia? Let me know when you do, then I'll consider this a valid argument. Quote:
The poor Jews, they travelled half way round the world, to boot people out of their homes into refugee camps, and they're going to end up scapegoats because of it.. yeh I feel real sorry for them. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Calanen on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 12:58pm Quote:
How would you know, taken a survey? You make suppositions and assumptions about how there are 'moderate' muslims in Palestine, where are they? Who watches the 'extremist' TV over there - or dresses their kids in suicide bomb belts? Just the 'extremists'? What you call 'extremist' Islam - is just - Islam. And your false assumption about so called moderate Islam just wanting to live in peace, is not based on any facts or evidence - its just a kumbaya statement that is based on viewing the world through rose coloured glasses and being too afraid to deal with the truth. There is no 'moderate' Islam which disavows overthrowing secular states and installing sharia law through violence and jihad. None. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Yadda on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 2:31pm mantra wrote on Aug 21st, 2009 at 9:22am:
mantra, Christians, should all be 'go along, to get along' people? And you seem to believe that Christians should be tolerant, even of evil and wickedness? That is what you are saying? All i am saying, is that real Christians should separate themselves from what is clearly wicked and evil. We Christians also understand [from the Bible] that [in our pursuit of TRUTH], we must not embrace evil. ....but rather, WE ARE CALLED TO REBUKE THOSE WHO DO EMBRACE EVIL. ....because abiding with evil, must lead to our separation from God. Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. .... 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:.... Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. But you follow your path mantra, if it makes you happy. Quote:
Your question.... Quote:
I didn't answer your question mantra, because i know that an informed person, like yourself, "....I am not prejudiced Yadda - I try to see both sides...." ....would never pose such a biased, ignorant question, being so well informed, and seeing both sides, as you do. /sarc off But lets just inform you a little more, mantra..... point #1, Q. The moslems fled the nascent state of Israel in 1948 why? A. Because surrounding Arab states instructed them to [in radio broadcasts], so that those same Arab states could destroy Israel. Local moslems fled for their own safety, so that their moslem brothers could 'cleanly' kill whoever remained. point #2, refugees.... The 'Palestinian' refugee numbers are maintained, in the millions, within surrounding nations, as a propaganda club, with which to attack Israel. #3, 'Palestinian' refugees have no 'right' to any land in Israel. And i believe that soon, every little piece of earth [which 'Palestinian' refugees bodily possess], is going to be taken from them. You see, the earth belongs to God, all of it. Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. mantra, WWII era refugees have 'disappeared'. Did aliens take them? Google, refugees created by wwii http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=refugees+created+by+wwii&btnG=Search&meta= Google, Palestinian refugee problem manufactured maintained http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Palestinian+refugee+problem+manufactured+maintained&btnG=Search&meta= Part 142 - Palestine and Palestinians http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciUb9wSkbnE Part 146A - Two States - Israel and Palestine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-HkGLs-KVU Part 146B - Two States - Israel and Palestine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tpcPbZ9NM0 Part 146C - Two States - Israel and Palestine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOg5_qUsS10 |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 23rd, 2009 at 2:40pm Quote:
Something interesting from the Israeli radio history website... Quote:
There's no doubting some wealthier Palestinians did vacate their land so they could ride out the war in comfort, but the vast majority of Palestinians were not wealthy, nor did the vast majority have access to radios. The vast majority were simple villagers, who were driven out of their villages and homes by Zionist militias. During one operation alone. Operation Danny some 50,000-70,000 Palestinian civilians were expelled by the Zionist militias (calling themselves an army by this stage). Several Israeli historians have also begun actually foraging through the deep pile of propaganda to report more of an historical picture of the expulsion of the Palestinians. Ilan Pappe in his book The ethnic cleansing of Palestine for instance details exactly how the Palestinians left Palestine, and it wasn't to the tune of Arab propaganda radio waves. Stop being an apostle of falsehood Yadda, and start reading some objective accounts, instead of the usual Zionist propaganda. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 23rd, 2009 at 2:48pm
Btw Yadda... still waiting for the name of the Partition Plan you keep alluding to... ;D
|
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by mantra on Aug 23rd, 2009 at 7:23pm Yadda wrote on Aug 21st, 2009 at 9:41am:
My wilfil ignorance? Are you sure you aren't a Muslim Yadda? You are very condescending and come across as an authoritarian not to mention a religious fanatic who hasn't the ability to recognise your own bigotry. Quote:
How would you know, taken a survey? You make suppositions and assumptions about how there are 'moderate' muslims in Palestine, where are they? Who watches the 'extremist' TV over there - or dresses their kids in suicide bomb belts? Just the 'extremists'?[/quote] Calanen - do you believe every man, woman and child in Palestine is a terrorist or potential terrorist? Have you seen the violence Western kids over the last couple of decades have been subjected to through TV and games - mostly imported from the US. Is the extreme violence our kids watch any different to that the Palestinian kids are exposed to? Do you think violence - especially unprovoked violence by Western youth is justified? What's their excuse to murder, beat, stab and rob on a daily basis? You overlook this and continually attack a severely disadvantaged nation of people who have had to be defensive for so long they have become offensive for the sake of survival. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24th, 2009 at 12:12am
mantra,
Quote:
Are you saying I am condescending and come across as an authoritarian religious fanatic who hasn't the ability to recognise my own bigotry?? |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by mantra on Aug 24th, 2009 at 7:00am
Of course not Abu, but Yadda comes across as an extremist and meets the description he uses to denigrate Muslims.
I was listening to a Muslim the other day (clean shaven) who was describing the two contradictory areas of the Koran, one area which has led to extremism. There are those patriarchists who embrace Islam's 7th century philosophy while other Muslims are struggling to move into the 21st century. He made sense but said the Muslims who live a regressive life haven't misinterpreted the Koran, but have been selective and exclusive in its teachings to suit their ideology. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by helian on Aug 24th, 2009 at 10:43am
It seems clear that the expulsion of Arabs from Israel/Palestine has little to do with the threat of terrorism than Jews exploiting an historical "window of opportunity" to create a stable and demographically secure Jewish homeland, such that, were the spectre of Jewish persecution to rise again anywhere, the Jewish persecuted would have a guaranteed refuge. Is it right that innocent Arabs should be evicted from their homes? Is it right that a people should be persecuted everywhere with no place to run?
In this clash of two great rights, neither is greater. Choose your side, choose your right and your poison. There's nothing more to argue. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24th, 2009 at 11:07am
helian,
Quote:
I can agree with your point to an extent helian, that no people should have to live as a stateless minority, facing persecution everywhere they go. And on that point, I can truly sympathise with the aspirations of the Jews as fellow human beings. But all it's done is effectively boot the Palestinians out into almost the exact same kind of diaspora. So even if we consider the Jews have a valid aspiration, the realisation of those aspirations in Palestine would be cancelled out and neutralised by the fact they want to do the exact same thing to another people. Also the fact they rejected every single proposal put before them, except Palestine tends to indicate it wasn't just about securing a safe homeland for world Jewry. They could've had a much more peaceful go at that in Uganda, Australia, Argentina or any of the other countries which were going to provide land for them to establish a Jewish home. Palestinians were never going to provide that, as they knew from day one that Zionist aspirations had been expressed to rid the land of it's inhabitants... and who wouldn't reject such an idea? And at the end of the day, are they safer? As we constantly hear in the media, they're subject to constant rocket attacks, suicide bombings etc. It would seem they've jumped out of the pan and into the fire... There was never going to be a peaceful or acceptable taking of Palestine, and even the British admit they bit off more than they could chew, and ended up washing their hands at it (albeit after they'd armed and trained the Zionists for their short term victory). The situation can only end in a horrible way it seems like it. The Palestinians will obviously never relinquish their land, and neither will the larger Arab and Muslim groupings either. The only solution that can be peaceful is to reconsider their re-settlement in Uganda, Australia or wherever they're still able to get a piece of land. No other solution has any inkling of a peaceful or just settlement in sight, let's just hope the 'power brokers' will admit/accept it. I think they knew from the beginning, but have too much to benefit by prolonging the situation. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by helian on Aug 24th, 2009 at 11:38am
A slice of Germany would have been the most just, after an expulsion of Germans from the region, but that didn't happen
It's too late to reconsider an alternative location and now the die is cast. Maybe it comes down to a fight between the two gods, Yahweh and Allah. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by skippy on Aug 24th, 2009 at 11:53am Quote:
I agree, tho many countries in Europe would have been none to pleased to have a Jewish state on their doorstep. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24th, 2009 at 12:12pm Quote:
Well, again, you'd just be creating the same problem for other people. But I must say, i find it quite ironic when Europeans lecture Arabs about how much the Jews have suffered (in Europe mind you) and how therefore the Arabs should get up, leave their homes and give them to Jews. I think Australia woulda been a nice location though, and perhaps in the not too distant future, the Zionists will realise their expedition in Palestine is futile and must come to an end, and that nobody can live in such cirumstances, and so they'll opt to take a piece of Australia. Wonder how the pro-Zionist Australians will welcome that news, especially if they decide they don't want some wilderness in the Kimberley, but plush farming lands on the eastern seaboard... I'm sure they'll just practice what they formerly preached, get up, move peacefully into refugee camps and hand their house keys to the Zionists, with a smile ;D |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by helian on Aug 24th, 2009 at 12:22pm wrote on Aug 24th, 2009 at 11:53am:
Most likely not, but few European nations could argue that they didn't deserve it. Members of nearly every nation's police force and intelligence agencies (and private citizens) assisted the Nazis in deporting and/or exterminating Jews. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by helian on Aug 24th, 2009 at 12:53pm abu_rashid wrote on Aug 24th, 2009 at 12:12pm:
Yeah, but the feud has more depth in the Middle East and more historical inevitability to it. And the clash of tribes, cultures and religions don't come more epic, momentous or as native to anywhere quite like Israel/Palestine. On top of all that, there's the divine struggle as well! And as the song (sort of) says... "When two gods go to war, one is all that you can score..." Allah and Yahweh... Who's yer money on? ;D |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:02pm
They are one in the same.
The word Elohim (etymologically the same as Allah) is actually used more to refer to God in the Bible than Yahweh. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by helian on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:16pm abu_rashid wrote on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:02pm:
He just manifests differently depending on the tribe perhaps.... 'Polymanifestationism'? If Israel succeeds in its mission to de-Arabise Palestine, then the zealots of Judaism will claim it was the will of Yahweh... If the Arabs succeed in 'wiping Israel (or the Zionist entity) off the map', the zealots of Islam will credit Allah with that success. For all practical purposes they are two, not one. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:43pm Quote:
Well I have also heard of an etymology which says Yahweh is a combination of beseeching (Arabic Ya) and he (Huwa), which would make Yahuwa, quite similar. Not sure if the same exists in Hebrew, should imagine that such basic words would be fairly similar. Quote:
For Muslims, the good and the bad are dealt to us by God. So if they de-Arabicised Palestine, then it would be from God. But we've had this discussion before, and you didn't seem to comprehend that concept. As you were under the impression that if it were from God, then one must surender to and accept it. Unable to seperate the concepts of God's will from God's commands. Even if Israel managed to de-Arabicise Palestine, that is not the end. They are completely surrounded by Arab and Muslim lands, and they face the exact same situation. So it's a pipedream to think Israel will ever exist as a 'normal' country, it will not. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by Yadda on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:55pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 24th, 2009 at 10:43am:
No it isn't. Now show me the innocent Arabs. Quote:
No it isn't. Quote:
It was the world community which decided to give the Jewish people a homeland again, in that location. A Jewish homeland, in what was their ancient homeland. Arabs and Jews could have co-existed in the nation that emerged. One party rejected co-existence on an equal basis, within a Jewish homeland. That being so, those particular Arabs could have been reabsorbed into their own ancient homeland(s). But they, and surrounding Arab nations refused to 'accommodate' that solution. Hence the present strife. A problem, which will be 'resolved' [to the the Arabs satisfaction] when local surrounding Arabs have successfully slaughtered all of the local Jewish people, those currently living in the state of Israel. It isn't going to happen. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by helian on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:57pm abu_rashid wrote on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:43pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 24th, 2009 at 1:43pm:
You got that right. But this conflict is 'natural' to that land and its peoples, so the current one is just another chapter in its multi-millennial dialectic. |
Title: Re: Israel begins sell-off of refugees’ land Post by abu_rashid on Aug 24th, 2009 at 4:56pm
Yadda,
Quote:
I understand you've only really looked at the last few years of this conflict Yadda, so therefore you consider the Arabs to be the aggressor. But surely in 1948, the Arabs were innocent no? After all, they were just sitting in their homes, when all of this was thrust upon them. What were they guilty of? Other than perhaps being a little too naive to realise what was waiting to befall them? Remember, Hamas and suicide bombing didn't come into existence until the mid to late 1980's, so for about 40 years, surely they were fairly innocent victims in all this? Yes eventually it got too much and they went to extreme measures to respond to what they'd been living under for so long... Quote:
Actually the world community offered Uganda, Australia and a few other places, the Zionists rejected every single one. Either way, the "world community" has no right to remove a people from their land, and place another people in it. Would you accept that from the "world community"? Or do you only recognise it's authority to resettle/transfer entire nations when it suits you? Quote:
Actually the Zionists rejected every single partition solution offered, since most of them gave a larger % of the land to the much much larger Arab population. When the U.N plan offered them a hugely disproportionate amount of land, of course they accepted, who in their right mind wouldn't? And what much larger majority would accept it? You're arguing against the very laws of human nature here. Tiny minorities will of course accept an equal share of the land, and overwhelming majorities will never accept sharing their land equally with a tiny minority... It's just logical. Quote:
Although it's true some Palestinian Arabs have traceable ancestry in other parts of the Middle east, the vast majority do not. And DNA testing has shown that most Palestinians predate the Arab arrival, indicating they are the descendants of inhabitants of the land whose history there stretches back much longer than 1300 years (as if 1300 years wasn't enough). Quote:
When you can state honestly you wouldn't mind being "re-absorbed" into other lands, if someone decided they wanted yours.. then I'll consider that argument. Quote:
That's right.. the present strife is all the result of the Palestinians selfish refusal to hand their house keys over to the Zionists, get up and walk off into the desert... how self-centred of them. Quote:
When they vacate the houses/land they are squatting in, and go back to their homes in NY, London, Russia, Lithuania etc. yes, then it will be resolved. Until then, the suffering, on both sides, will linger... and the Christian nutcases such as yourself will be on the sidelines, eagerly awaiting their fulfilled prophecies, taking great joy in the suffering of others.... |
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