Looks like Karzai has been living up to the 'lofty ideals' of his political benefactors. Democracy at work.

Although he has quite some way to go before he's able to pull it off without attracting so much scrutiny. Still a trick or two the West can teach him.

---

Afghan election fraud probe grows

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46291000/jpg/_46291998_007862513-1.jpg
Opposition candidates say some ballot boxes have been filled with fake votes

Election complaints officials in Afghanistan say they are looking into more than 560 major allegations of fraud from the 20 August vote.

The tally doubles the figure of serious allegations reported two days ago.

Full preliminary results are due next week, but the final results will not be made official until major fraud allegations are investigated.

The latest partial results give President Hamid Karzai 46% of the votes compared to Abdullah Abdullah's 31.4%.

A candidate needs 50% of votes cast to avoid a second round run-off which, if needed, would be held in October.

State-crafted fraud?

The independent Electoral Complaints Commission said on Sunday that of more than 2,000 allegations of fraud and intimidation during voting and vote-counting, 567 had been deemed serious enough to affect the election's outcome, if proven.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46288000/jpg/_46288028_007832893-1.jpg
President Karzai rejects allegations of state-crafted fraud

On Friday, the commission had reported 270 major allegations.

With two-thirds of polling stations still to announce their results, Mr Abdullah has already alleged "massive, state-crafted" fraud.

He told the BBC on Saturday that ballot boxes had been stuffed with hundreds of thousands of votes.

"My concern is about massive fraud, state-crafted, state-engineered fraud which has taken place throughout the country," he said.

Mr Karzai has rejected allegations of state-crafted fraud.

His comments came days after it emerged that US special envoy to Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke, in a meeting with Mr Karzai, raised concerns about ballot-stuffing and fraud by a number of candidates' teams.

However, officials of both Mr Holbrooke and Mr Karzai denied reports their talks had been "explosive" and a "dramatic bust-up."

With the election commission saying just over two million votes had now been counted, Kabul lawmaker Ramazan Bashardost was placed in third position, ahead of former World Bank economist Ashraf Ghani.

Source: BBC

abu,

We can not know for certain, not yet anyway, but i could well believe that these allegations of widespread election fraud in Afghanistan have some basis in fact.

But elections are merely a 'tool'.

And like any 'tool', or 'power', they can be abused.




Why blame the West?

These elections are being held, NOT in the West.

If there is election fraud, and other instances of corruption among the Afghani people, who is responsible?

Is it those who are trying to empower the Afghani people, or is the fault with Afghani people themselves?



Q.
And what is the culture, which the Afghani people have been exposed to all of their lives?

Q.
And what is the culture, which taught the Afghani people, right from wrong ?

Q.
What is the culture, which [in its practice] always tends to hide, shame,  ....and reward, corrupt practices?

A.
ISLAMIC culture.






The West?

Certainly, there is corruption in the culture of the West.

But, in the West, we try to expose corrupt practices, when they are discovered.

THAT, is our culture.



But, where there is corruption among moslems, it is most often hidden,
.....because within the culture of ISLAM, to expose the wrong-doing of another moslem is shameful [to all moslems].

Quote:

Why blame the West? These elections are being held, NOT in the West.

Nevermind that the West has (and still is) fought a 8 year long war to remove the previous government and enforce these elections upon the Afghan people.

Of course it's nothing to do with the West... Care to come back down to earth?


Quote:

And what is the culture, which the Afghani people have been exposed to all of their lives?

The Afghani people have been through a lot of different systems, Soviet enforced Communism, then Warlords, Talibaan and now Western imposed 'democracy'.

I hardly think Islam has had much of a chance to effect their lives over the past 30 or so years.


Quote:

But, in the West, we try to expose corrupt practices, when they are discovered.

Or... you're just much more professional than Karzai at concealing it.

No one can teach another person to want to be free.

That desire for freedom must come from within each of us.






Among a people generally corrupt, liberty cannot long exist.
Edmund Burke

Democracy is not being free, it's being enslaved to the desires of other people.

Just because we have a certain degree of freedom here in Australia doesn't mean democracy itself is about freedom. Remember that Nazi Germany was a democracy, as is Hamas controlled Ghaza. Do you think you'd feel free living in either of those?

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 31^st, 2009 at 11:54am:

Democracy is not being free, it's being enslaved to the desires of other people.

True to a point.

I would have used the words.....

"Democracy is not being free, but rather offers a set of 'freedoms', which are constrained, by the laws of the majority."



But on a scale of freedom.....

On a scale of freedom, Democracy = = 5/10

On a scale of freedom, ISLAM = = 0/10

....in my opinion.





Quote:

Just because we have a certain degree of freedom here in Australia doesn't mean democracy itself is about freedom. Remember that Nazi Germany was a democracy, as is Hamas controlled Ghaza. Do you think you'd feel free living in either of those?

abu,

You are correct.


But i repeat,

Quote:

No one can teach another person to want to be free. That desire for freedom must come from within each of us.

Quote:

But on a scale of freedom..... On a scale of freedom, Democracy = = 5/10 On a scale of freedom, ISLAM = = 0/10 ....in my opinion.

All depends on what you understand freedoms to be. Surely Australia has one of the widest conditions of personal freedoms, but in many cases it goes way too far. People are free to commit activities which many would consider crimes.

For instance adultery, fornication and homosexuality. Gambling, boozing and public nudity. These vices are evils, I hope you'll agree, which eat away at the fabric of Australian society, and cause it to become more and more morally corrupt.

Would a state that permitted incest and bestiality be more free than Australia? By your scale, they probably would. Is that a good thing?

Whilst on the flip side, most "Muslim countries" indeed have very little freedom, and that is again too far. But it's not because of Islam.

Islam certainly prohibits people committing acts it deems criminal, and perhaps you mistake that for curtailing of freedom.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 31^st, 2009 at 12:59pm:

Quote: But on a scale of freedom..... On a scale of freedom, Democracy = = 5/10 On a scale of freedom, ISLAM = = 0/10 ....in my opinion. All depends on what you understand freedoms to be. Surely Australia has one of the widest conditions of personal freedoms, but in many cases it goes way too far. People are free to commit activities which many would consider crimes. For instance adultery, fornication.....

abu,

When you meet him, you can explain to the God of Israel, how you have always condemned fornication.

And how, as you understand it, the rape of captive women, by moslem men, IS JUSTIFIED WITHIN ISLAM, and is not fornication.

Bikeway rapist gets 25 years in jail
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1251431040/8#8








Quote:

......and homosexuality. Gambling, boozing and public nudity. These vices are evils, I hope you'll agree, which eat away at the fabric of Australian society, and cause it to become more and more morally corrupt. Would a state that permitted incest and bestiality be more free than Australia? By your scale, they probably would. Is that a good thing? Whilst on the flip side, most "Muslim countries" indeed have very little freedom, and that is again too far. But it's not because of Islam. Islam certainly prohibits people committing acts it deems criminal, and perhaps you mistake that for curtailing of freedom.

abu,

You can explain it all to the God of Israel, when you meet him, as we all must.

Quote:

And how, as you understand it, the rape of captive women, by moslem men, IS JUSTIFIED WITHIN ISLAM, and is not fornication.

Raping is not permitted in Islam in any case, and I challenge you to produce any Islamic text claiming it is.

Anyway, the "God of Israel" seems to have no such problem with sleeping with captive women...


Quote:

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

Or this one?


Quote:

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

Or perhaps this one?


Quote:

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.

(Judges 5:30)

And there's plenty more.

What you need to realise is that in the Bible (ie. According to the "God of Israel") and the Islamic texts, this is not considered fornication, but is considered like marriage, and the man has a duty of care to clothe, feed and house the woman, just like a wife.