Afghan Men Struggle With Sexual Identity, Study Finds

FOXNews.com

An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.

As if U.S. troops and diplomats didn't have enough to worry about in trying to understand Afghan culture, a new report suggests an entire region in the country is coping with a sexual identity crisis.

An unclassified study from a military research unit in southern Afghanistan details how homosexual behavior is unusually common among men in the large ethnic group known as Pashtuns -- though they seem to be in complete denial about it.

The study, obtained by Fox News, found that Pashtun men commonly have sex with other men, admire other men physically, have sexual relationships with boys and shun women both socially and sexually -- yet they completely reject the label of "homosexual." The research was conducted as part of a longstanding effort to better understand Afghan culture and improve Western interaction with the local people.

The research unit, which was attached to a Marine battalion in southern Afghanistan, acknowledged that the behavior of some Afghan men has left Western forces "frequently confused."

The report details the bizarre interactions a U.S. Army medic and her colleagues had with Afghan men in the southern province of Kandahar.

In one instance, a group of local male interpreters had contracted gonorrhea anally but refused to believe they could have contracted it sexually -- "because they were not homosexuals."

Apparently, according to the report, Pashtun men interpret the Islamic prohibition on homosexuality to mean they cannot "love" another man -- but that doesn't mean they can't use men for "sexual gratification."

The group of interpreters who had contracted gonorrhea joked in the camp that they actually got the disease by "mixing green and black tea." But since they refused to heed the medics' warnings, many of them re-contracted the disease after receiving treatment.

The U.S. army medic also told members of the research unit that she and her colleagues had to explain to a local man how to get his wife pregnant.

The report said: "When it was explained to him what was necessary, he reacted with disgust and asked, 'How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean, when one could be with a man, who is clean? Surely this must be wrong.'"


The Pashtun populations are concentrated in the southern and eastern parts of the country. The Human Terrain Team that conducted the research is part of a military effort to learn more about local populations.

The report also detailed a disturbing practice in which older "men of status" keep young boys on hand for sexual relationships. One of the country's favorite sayings, the report said, is "women are for children, boys are for pleasure."

The report concluded that the widespread homosexual behavior stems from several factors, including the "severe segregation" of women in the society and the "prohibitive" cost of marriage.

Though U.S. troops are commonly taught in training for Afghanistan that the "effeminate characteristics" of Pashtun men are "normal" and not an indicator of homosexuality, the report said U.S. forces should not "dismiss" the unique version of homosexuality that is actually practiced in the region "out of desire to avoid western discomfort."

Otherwise, the report said, Westerners could "risk failing to comprehend an essential social force underlying Pashtun culture."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/28/afghan-men-struggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/

muslim men struggle with sexual identity

Christian clergy appear to have the same problem.

some are paeds and should be in jail

not sure if that is a 'struggle with their sexuality", sure is one society disagrees with

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 10:47am:

some are paeds and should be in jail not sure if that is a 'struggle with their sexuality", sure is one society disagrees with

Many priests and pastors struggle with their sexual identity and the vast majority do not go on to commit crimes against children.

and this is from your own research helian ?

i'ld imagine not being married is bad for a bloke.
the bible says priests etc SHOULD be married to a single woman.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 11:11am:

and this is from your own research helian ? i'ld imagine not being married is bad for a bloke. the bible says priests etc SHOULD be married to a single woman.

Sprint, I was born and raised in an ardent Irish Catholic family. Many decent priests were personal friends of my family. As my siblings and I got older and "put away childish things", the issue of sexuality was discussed by priests more inclined to be frank about the issues, and yes many priests struggled with their identity.

If perhaps you'd like to research it, Sprint, read up on the living arrangements within monasteries. You may read on the sleeping arrangements where young priests/monks were accommodated away from each other.

ah, good helian - so it is from your own research.

yes, I'ld think to be "seperated" from women would be weird for a mens sexuality.
unnatural.

the bible says preists etc SHOULD be married, for some reason kafflicks disagree on this one.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 11:58am:

ah, good helian - so it is from your own research.

Are you intending to imply that your many comments on numerous issues here are all based on your own research, Sprint?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 11:58am:

yes, I'ld think to be "seperated" from women would be weird for a mens sexuality. unnatural. the bible says preists etc SHOULD be married, for some reason kafflicks disagree on this one.

Celibacy is a common enough occurrence in religion to determine that it is not a peculiarity of Catholicism. Ascetic Hindu Sadhus practise it along with Buddhist monks.

i agree, i also think it does little good, esp if .... expected.
as what religions do do

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 12:16pm:

i agree, i also think it does little good, esp if .... expected. as what religions do do

It is not for frivolous reasons that celibacy is practised but to heighten the practitioner's capacity for self-abnegation. Unfortunately it can also be dangerous sexually.

if celebacy is voluntarily chosen, as in the case of ghandi I believe, well and good.
If it is ...... enforced or used as a sign of ones "superior spirituality", it's detrimental I beleve.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 12:42pm:

if celebacy is voluntarily chosen, as in the case of ghandi I believe, well and good. If it is ...... enforced or used as a sign of ones "superior spirituality", it's detrimental I beleve.

Isn't it always voluntarily chosen Sprint? Unless you're locked away against your will.

It should never be a sign of superior spirituality... That would be an instance of the sin of pride (arrogance) which all religious traditions would regard as negative.

i don't think it is voluntarily chosen at all.

It should never be seen as a banner of ones "sopiritual superiority", but it is often flown as such.
This is not a new thing, there have always been "religious snobs" who look down on "nonreligious" people.

eg, those that boast of going to church every week, visiting mecca every 3 years ...................

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 1:47pm:

i don't think it is voluntarily chosen at all. It should never be seen as a banner of ones "sopiritual superiority", but it is often flown as such. This is not a new thing, there have always been "religious snobs" who look down on "nonreligious" people. eg, those that boast of going to church every week, visiting mecca every 3 years ...................

Do men and women not choose to become priests/monks and nuns, Sprint? There are plenty of lay roles in religion for those who choose to have family.

The fact is, if someone honestly feels so strongly about the welfare of others to forego sex and family, then their self-denial for the cause of self-abnegation is worthy of respect.

many people were expected to become priests/nuns.
they were essentially forced into it.

fact is, there is no need to be celibate in order to help others.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 2:44pm:

many people were expected to become priests/nuns. they were essentially forced into it. fact is, there is no need to be celibate in order to help others.

Certainly in very Catholic countries it was considered an honour to have a nun or priest in the family. In very poor countries committing family members to monasteries was the only way for those family members to survive. In modern times, however, this has diminished.

Yes, celibacy is not a necessary prerequisite to help others... But when a stranger needs your help that takes you away from your sick child, where does your primary responsibility lie? Where would your heart be?

This was the terrible choice Gandhi made regarding his own family. His eldest son abandoned Jainism for Islam, became a criminal and an alcoholic and blamed his father for the lot partly because Gandhi was absent "saving India" when his son needed him most. He never forgave his father and the Mahatma bore that grief for the rest of his life.

in many catholic countries one son went to the church, the next into the army, or vice versa, I can't remember.
i am sure there are other ways aside fro starvation that peolpe were forced into a monastry/nunnery.
the cruelty of nuns is legendary.

in modern times the numbers of nuns and monks has likewise dropped.

i don't at all agree with your dilemma there at all.
its a false dilemma yopu pose.  it's an old cafflik argument


ghandis oldest son was a loser sook. i'ld boot the useless poo out of my house.
what a selfish immature wimp.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 3:15pm:

i don't at all agree with your dilemma there at all. its a false dilemma yopu pose.  it's an old cafflik argument ghandis oldest son was a loser sook. i'ld boot the useless poo out of my house. what a selfish immature wimp.

There is not much room for disagreement. Unattached persons with no dependents or property are obviously more able to devote all their time to unrelated others. They have an abundance of empathy (where they are true to their cause)... That being the primary prerequisite for selfless action... Of course, that doesn't mean there should necessarily never be a place for married people to serve others... And there are many married people who devote all they can in the service of others. But the more time they devote to others, the less they have for immediate family... Which is fine where their children are psychologically robust. Where they are not... well, they're going to need more help than they otherwise would.

It not just a Catholic argument... Unmarried religious can and do move to wherever they are most needed. This was the predicament Siddhartha's wife found herself in when he became Buddha abandoning her and their children for "the greater good of humanity".


Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 3:15pm:

ghandis oldest son was a loser sook. i'ld boot the useless poo out of my house. what a selfish immature wimp.

Who knows? Maybe you don't feel the paternal bond as strongly as the Mahatma. Or maybe you'd like to imagine yourself as a kick-arse existentialist.

there's a LOT of room for disagreement.
now you have dropped your false dichotomey, you go for a sweeping statement.

helping others has nothing to do with making love.
totally unrelated.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 7:08pm:

there's a LOT of room for disagreement. now you have dropped your false dichotomey, you go for a sweeping statement. helping others has nothing to do with making love. totally unrelated.

Self-denial of sexual expression is not about not making love.

This reminds me of what Abu said about Saudi men. There is a shortage of women available for them (because of high dowries of course, nothing to do with having multiple wives). Also the women are 'protected' (iew not allowed out of the house). So the next best thing for the men is to have sex with each other. Apparently it happens regularly in public toilets. If only Islamic law was enforced properly, they could capture a foreign woman to have sex with.

ddddddddduuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh
what is it about then ?
flipping pancakes on a hot girdle ?

Focus.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 8:17pm:

ddddddddduuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh what is it about then ? flipping pancakes on a hot girdle ?

A hot girdle, Sprint? Not bad ;D

Quote:

This reminds me of what Abu said about Saudi men. There is a shortage of women available for them (because of high dowries of course, nothing to do with having multiple wives). Also the women are 'protected' (iew not allowed out of the house).

I said no such thing.

You are so full of it fd.

Bring a quote or retract this garbage.

The sad thing is, this is the second time you've actually accused me of this, and you dont' even remember making this crap up last time.

This whole thread is typical of the Western habit of projecting their own sexual deviancies onto others, in order to try and tarnish their superior moral and chaste image.

Freud would have a field day with you bunch.  ;D

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 10:37pm:

Freud would have a field day with you bunch.  ;D

Maybe, but in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia he would have yawned and said "Ja freilich... zis iss exactly vot I vood exschpect in a sexually represhed society... vere vomen are so severely cloistered und men are free to move mostly as zey please".

According to Sarah MacDonald, author of "Holy Cow", male prostitution is rife in Pakistani cities.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 10:54pm:

... According to Sarah MacDonald, author of "Holy Cow", male prostitution is rife in Pakistani cities.

Information not published by their Government of course.

Old trick: if you don't say it, it didn't happen.

Was it Malik?

.

I think this is what this thread is actually referring to. America's filthy allies the despicable Northern Alliance warlords, who now run Afghanistan for her.

I pray sincerely that these filthmongers and their international benefactors are expelled from the lands of the Muslims immediately and those with a true sense of justice replace them.

Is it any wonder 80% of Afghans support the Talibaan when we see the filth the U.S and her allies have brought?

---

The Warlord's Tune: Afghanistan's war on children

By Mark Bannerman for Four Corners

Sexual slavery involving boys as young as 10 is being condoned and in many cases protected by authorities in northern Afghanistan.

In a story to be broadcast on Four Corners tonight, the practice of bacha bazi or "boy play", as well as other allegations of child abuse, are explored.

Afghan journalist Najibullah Quraishi has filmed police attending a party where a young boy is the "entertainment". The police shown on the video include one officer from the youth crime squad.

Such parties are illegal under the law in Afghanistan and with good reason. The "dancing boys" are in effect sex slaves. They are lured off the streets by pimps. They are taught to dance and sing, to wear make-up and to dress like girls. Then they are made to perform before large groups of men. All of them are sexually abused.

"Dancing boys" are a lucrative business. Powerful former warlords and businessmen love to watch them and will pay a lot of money to have their own boy for bacha bazi. Some of the boys are traded like swap cards amongst the rich and powerful and if they disobey their "owners" they are killed or brutalised.

The trade in boys is well known to the United Nations. According to Nazir Alimy, who compiled a report on the issue for the UN, there is no doubt who is funding this practice and why the police refuse to stop it.

"According to our research these dancing boys are used by powerful men for sex," Mr Alimy said.

Tonight's Four Corners follows the criminal activity of two paedophiles who search for young boys so they can sell them or groom them to be trained as "dancing boys". In one case the journalist goes in the car with a paedophile named Dastager. As they drive, Dastager explains the type of boy he is looking for. Then in broad daylight the "dancing boy master" stops the car, goes to a shopfront and brings a boy back to his the waiting car.

According to a report prepared for the United Nations there is evidence that the practice of bacha bazi and the sexual abuse of boys is common throughout the north of the country. It confirms that young boys, some of them only 10 years old, are lured into life as a sex slave.

There is also evidence that this type of abuse is spreading throughout Afghanistan.

Mr Alimy says his research shows it is happening in the south and even in the Afghan capital, Kabul.

"It's true they make the boys wear girls' clothes and make them dance in front of many men," he said.

The powerful men he refers to are often former warlords who helped drive the Taliban out of the north. Others who involve themselves in the trade of boys are wealthy businessmen. Under the Taliban, bacha bazi was outlawed. Today it is still a crime but clearly there is no concerted effort being made to stop the practice and the criminal activity that surrounds it.

Unable to find anyone willing to do anything about the abuse of children, journalist Najibullah Quraishi flew to New York to meet Radhika Coomaraswamy, who has been appointed by the UN to raise awareness of the plight of children in war zones.

She explains she is deeply pessimistic about the future of these children and the capacity of officials to stop the trade in young boys.

"When I mentioned the topic it was as if I had dropped a big brick, especially in the circles, official circles," she said.

"It was very clear to me, and someone actually said it to me, these are not things people talk about. So let's first deal with the war and then we'll deal with these other issues."

The Warlord's Tune goes to air tonight at 8.30 PM on ABC 1.

Source: Your ABC

Quote:

I think this is what this thread is actually referring to. America's filthy allies the despicable Northern Alliance warlords, who now run Afghanistan for her. I pray sincerely that these filthmongers and their international benefactors are expelled from the lands of the Muslims immediately and those with a true sense of justice replace them. Is it any wonder 80% of Afghans support the Talibaan when we see the filth the U.S and her allies have brought?

You got filth on the brain there, abu. Do you need to take a bath?

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2010 at 10:16am:

the despicable Northern Alliance warlords, who now run Afghanistan for her. I pray sincerely that these filthmongers and their international benefactors are expelled from the lands of the Muslims immediately and those with a true sense of justice replace them.

But the Northern Alliance ARE Muslims.


I'm a Muslim boy, in the Muslim world
Life in combat, it's fantastic!
you can brush my hair, undress me everywhere
Imagination, life is your creation
Come on Muslims, let's go party!


And so on.



Where would you send them?

They are apostate traitors and have nothing to do with Islam.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2010 at 7:13pm:

They are apostate traitors and have nothing to do with Islam.

Sez who? Sheik Mohammed Whatchacallim? Mufti Haj the Magnificent? Fendi Trad? Who?

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2010 at 7:13pm:

They are apostate traitors and have nothing to do with Islam.

"Nothing to do with Islam" is your standard response when it all gets too difficult to explain. You're too predictable.

They were always enemies of Islam who fought against the Talibaan for years, and then they betrayed the entire Muslim nation by inviting the invaders into the lands of Islam.

These despicable acts mentioned above are a manifestation of their clear disbelief and betrayal of Islam. In fact that's the reason they rejected the Talibaan and fought them was because the Talibaan put an end to their despicable activities. They rape, pillage and do as they please, and in fact if one reads the history of the Talibaan, they'll find the Talibaan came into existence to eradicate this scum.

Their only tie is to the Western powers who resurrected them and who prop them up to commit their filth as we speak.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2010 at 8:56pm:

They were always enemies of Islam who fought against the Talibaan for years, and then they betrayed the entire Muslim nation by inviting the invaders into the lands of Islam. These despicable acts mentioned above are a manifestation of their clear disbelief and betrayal of Islam. In fact that's the reason they rejected the Talibaan and fought them was because the Talibaan put an end to their despicable activities. They rape, pillage and do as they please, and in fact if one reads the history of the Talibaan, they'll find the Talibaan came into existence to eradicate this scum. Their only tie is to the Western powers who resurrected them and who prop them up to commit their filth as we speak.

These pinheads look all the same to me - bearded, grizzled, primitive, clutching a Koran in one hand, their d!cks in the other and an AK 47 in the third.

Murdering schoolgirls for going to school doesn't give one buch the moral high ground over the other which cares not for their schooling as long as they can be raped, along with their brothers.

Pity they can't both be killed off.  

Is there anyone else in Afghanistan, other than Northern Alliance and Taliban?

Also keep in mind these disgusting actions have been occurring with the full knowledge, consent and facilitation of the Western invasion forces. Here's an article from last year about a Canadian officer who witnessed these acts occurring in his own base and was prevented from stopping it

---

Former Canadian soldier speaks out against 'disgusting' child rape in Afghanistan
By David Pugliese, Ottawa CitizenSeptember 21, 2009

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.canada.com/news/disgusting+former+Canadian+soldier+says+alleged+child+rape+Afghanistan/2014450/2015781.bin
Former Cpl. Travis Schouten claims he witnessed an Afghan boy being sexually assualted by Afghan security personnel at Canada's Forward Operating Base Wilson in Afghanistan in 2006.
Photograph by: Handout, Travis Schouten

Every day, Travis Schouten lives with the image of the rape of an Afghan boy at a Canadian Forces base.

Witnessing two men, one armed with a knife, sodomize the child during an incident in late 2006 helped drive the 26-year-old to the brink of mental collapse.

But the former corporal said the assault is just the tip of an iceberg and underneath lies the systemic sexual abuse of boys at the hands of Afghanistan’s police and army. It’s something he said the Canadian Forces has turned a blind eye to.

“It’s disgusting,” said Schouten, now retired after eight years in the military. “We’re telling people that we’re trying to build a nation there and we let this happen?”

“We allow rampant abuse of young boys at the hands of what is supposed to be their finest police officers and army officers, then what does that say?”

Schouten’s allegations that Afghans were sexually abusing children at a Canadian base near Kandahar made headlines in 2008 but earlier this year, military investigators dismissed the claims as unfounded.

He is, however, not alone in voicing his concerns. Defence Department records show military police were upset about such incidents but were told not to interfere. Army officers also met in 2007 to discuss the issue of Afghan security personnel “having anal sex with young boys” but their main concern was the media would somehow find out.

Others in the military note they were told such practices were an age-old part of Afghan culture. One soldier who e-mailed Canwest News Service stated he served at the same base at another time and troops had orders to stop any rapes. But he also noted they were told the practise of “Man Love Thursdays,” as it was called, involved consenting Afghans and no one was raped by older men. The children involved were given small gifts or money in return for sex, soldiers said.

Schouten, however, questions whether a five- or six-year old child, or even an 11-year-old, can consent. “The Canadian Forces wants people to think it’s a cultural thing, that everyone is doing it, because it takes the onus of responsibility off them to stop it,” he said.

The United Nations has also questioned arguments that sex with children is a cultural issue. In July 2008, a UN special representative spoke out against the Afghan practise. “What I found was nobody talks about it; everyone says, ‘Well, you know, it’s been there for 1,000 years, so why do we want to raise this now?’ ” said Radhika Coomaraswamy. “But somebody has to raise it and it has to be dealt with.”

And not all Afghans are so accepting of what some claim is tradition. Afghan villagers this summer complained to British troops in Helmand province that Afghan police were abducting children to be used for sex.

Last year also saw an extremely rare event; three Afghan police officers who gang-raped a 12-year-old boy and his father were sent to prison.

Although reports in a Toronto newspaper noted that Schouten saw the aftermath of the attack on a young boy, he said that is not accurate. He actually entered the headquarters and witnessed two Afghan security personnel sodomizing the child. “I walked in and they were raping a kid,” he recalled. “The kid was bleeding. They guy with the camo fatigues had a knife in his hand.”

He left the headquarters shaken. The Canadian unit already had been dealing with other problems with the Afghans and his immediate options were limited. “I wasn’t going to start doing something at the scene,” he said. “I’m in the middle of the ANP headquarters. What do I do? Start shooting Afghan police? I’d get myself shot.”

Afterward, he was approached by an Afghan interpreter who worked with troops. The man had with him a couple of five-year-old boys who had also been allowed on the Canadian base. “He brought up the fact he likes to rape little boys,” Schouten said. “He’s telling me how he likes to use a knife on them.”

Schouten said after the incident, his life fell apart. He began drinking heavily. After returning from Afghanistan, he was involved in a car accident which injured one of his passengers. He went absent without leave when he was supposed to be at a psychiatrist’s appointment.

The army’s reaction was to try to dishonourably discharge him but Schouten successfully fought that. In August, he was honourably discharged on medical grounds.

Schouten wasn’t surprised the military investigation concluded his allegations were unfounded and his chain of command had not been informed of any such incidents.

TBC...

Back in Canada, he told a lieutenant colonel and Defence Department officials of the incident, who in turn, informed others in the army’s leadership. However, since none of those people was in Schouten’s direct chain of command, the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service could conclude nothing was reported, he explained.

Other soldiers also were reluctant to come forward. “Guys have mortgages, they have kids," said Schouten. “If they go and get involved in this their careers will be stopped. Look what the army did to me.”

Schouten isn’t expecting anything different from an army board of inquiry launched last year. Although soldiers know Afghan security forces are having sex with kids, the issue is too explosive to deal with, he added.

Schouten said the rape and its aftermath shook his faith in the military. “In my mind, when I signed up, it was a brotherhood to me,” he explained. “I thought I was there for an established set of values and I loved that. I was wrong.”

Schouten is now rebuilding his life and is going to university. “I’m putting myself back together,” he said.

“But at the same time, I do feel people should be held accountable and people should know this is what is going on over there.”

Source: Canwest News Service

Child rape does seem to be a common occurrence in this backward country where religion as always has failed them.

The issue was dramatised in the movie "The Kite Runner".

Abu, did you rpefer the old days when the Taliban was able to prevent this sort of thing hitting the media? You seem to have trouble with the concept that this barbarc tribal systems do not prevent this sort of thing, they only prevent it coming to light. Or maybe you just naively assume that it never happened because you associate the old system with Islam. You do have a tendedny to confuse the rate at which crimes are reported with the rate at which they occur, regardless of the extent of media access and freedom.

Quote:

Abu, did you rpefer the old days when the Taliban was able to prevent this sort of thing hitting the media?

Like with Opium, the Talibaan eradicated both completely from the country. You're just too deluded in your fantasy that you're liberating the country and setting up this wonderland of democracy there, to admit it.

Take notice by these revelations from the Canadian soldiers, and from the former ISI chief, and from the increasing civilian casualties, and from all the other sources, which all consistently spell the end of the occupation and the rejection of the Afghani people of it.

The West are finished in Afghanistan. They've brought nothing but this kind of filth, and misery and suffering and death and destruction. The people don't want them there, and it won't be long before they cannot remain. Time to jump ship fd, and admit you're completely deluded on this issue. You just can't read the signs, you're a dupe for propaganda.

Quote:

Child rape does seem to be a common occurrence in this backward country where religion as always has failed them.

You're off your rocker helian. The idea this is an age old custom is just nonsense, and was an idea crafted by the Western propaganda machine to try and shame Afghans, in order to further defeat and humiliate them. This filth is merely a result of the Western influence there, no doubt they learned this crap from people like those at Abu Ghraib, who derive sick pleasure from torturing and assaulting people. Some say Bagram is just as bad as Abu Ghraib in many respects, especially regarding the sick and disgusting practises that've gone on there. Or perhaps they learnt it from Blackwater mercenaries who drink alcohol from one another's rectums?? And engage in all sorts of other sick and depraved acts.

Religion is the only thing which has protected them from this filth. The Talibaan have been their only protection from these animals. But as always, the atheist has to try and paint everything as religion = bad, disbelief = good".

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2010 at 11:22pm:

Quote: Child rape does seem to be a common occurrence in this backward country where religion as always has failed them. You're off your rocker helian. The idea this is an age old custom is just nonsense, and was an idea crafted by the Western propaganda machine to try and shame Afghans, in order to further defeat and humiliate them. This filth is merely a result of the Western influence there, no doubt they learned this crap from people like those at Abu Ghraib, who derive sick pleasure from torturing and assaulting people. Some say Bagram is just as bad as Abu Ghraib in many respects, especially regarding the sick and disgusting practises that've gone on there. Or perhaps they learnt it from Blackwater mercenaries who drink alcohol from one another's rectums?? And engage in all sorts of other sick and depraved acts. Religion is the only thing which has protected them from this filth. The Talibaan have been their only protection from these animals. But as always, the atheist has to try and paint everything as religion = bad, disbelief = good".

Yeah, right, the proud, pious and upright Afghan people and their stout Arab helpers were introduced to MTV in 2002 and that was sufficient to eradicate a 1000 years of noble Muslim purity.

Come on Abu, you can't seriously expect us to believe that the west introduced child rape to this place, or that the Taliban 'eradicated it completely'. How naive are you?

Everything about Islam seems designed to cover up exploitation of the weakest members of society. Couple that with the backwardness and tribalism of this area and you are bound to find all sorts of nasty habits. The west is likely to get rid of it, by introducing real justice, instead of the "hey come beat my neighbour to within an inch of his life because we are fighting over a well" style of justice you seem to prefer.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2010 at 11:22pm:

Quote: Child rape does seem to be a common occurrence in this backward country where religion as always has failed them. You're off your rocker helian. The idea this is an age old custom is just nonsense, and was an idea crafted by the Western propaganda machine to try and shame Afghans, in order to further defeat and humiliate them. This filth is merely a result of the Western influence there, no doubt they learned this crap from people like those at Abu Ghraib, who derive sick pleasure from torturing and assaulting people.

Abu, don't be an infant.

As far as I recall the onus of proof is on the one making the claim.

If you claim it's an age old "tradition" then prove it.

And fd, stop being so disingenious, trying to casually associate marriage to girls when they reach puberty with this filthy act.

Poor Abu, stuck living in a fantasy ideal of how he thinks Islam could be practised.

He believes the false history of Islam's golden age, which conveniently ignores the despotic violence used to coerce populations to contribute to this claimed golden age, and dreams that it may return to provide a new golden age of Islam again.

To persist in maintaining this fantasy, he needs to disregard all the evidence of immoral and violent behaviour that we see in the world's current Islamic nations, and he does this by saying they are all symptoms of western corruption.
Only the most self deluding person could maintain that false claim, while totally ignoring the evidence of their own eyes and ears.

Any muslim who commits any misdeed is discounted as either;
a) "not a true muslim", or
b)"a western influenced puppet".

The glaring truth, and obvious conclusion to be drawn from seeing the same types of behaviours acted out across some quite diverse cultures is that Islam is the common factor they share.
Islam is the code they use to justify the behaviours to themselves, whether rightly or wrongly is an interpretive question that Islam itself can never answer, because each is free to interpret the books of Islam as they personally see fit, without direction from any universally recognised Islamic authority.

This lack of authority sees the terrorists as free to use Islam as their justification for violence, as the pedophile or polygamist who uses it's teachings to justify their sexual deviancies.

The four corners show last night which highlighted the misuse of boys in afghanistan by high ranking muslim officials, showed just how impotent Islam is in protecting the weak and powerless, which is not surprising for a doctrine developed by someone who preyed upon the weak and indulged their own sexual deviancies at every opportunity.

These muslim perverts even made the pedophile clergymen of the catholics look positively benevolent by comparison.

One day people like Abu may come to realise that their hopes and dreams for Islam just do not match the reality of what it is, or ever can be, and for the sake of the weak and exploited, the sooner that day comes the better.
When they take off their rose coloured glasses, and see Islam for what it is, they can start to put their energies into trying to change it for the better.

mozzaok - I find this bit hard to swallow

Quote:

.......These muslim perverts even made the pedophile clergymen of the catholics look positively benevolent by comparison. ........

i did not see the tv show, but still find it hard to credit.


indeed, any spirituality should be as far away from political power as it could be.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2010 at 10:51am:

As far as I recall the onus of proof is on the one making the claim. If you claim it's an age old "tradition" then prove it.

Easy. Type "homoeroticism in islam" into Google Scholar and see what comes up. Or buy the book: Homoeroticism in Classical Arabic Literature
http://www.amazon.com/Homoeroticism-Classical-Arabic-Literature-Wright/dp/023110507X

mozza,


Quote:

To persist in maintaining this fantasy, he needs to disregard all the evidence of immoral and violent behaviour that we see in the world's current Islamic nations, and he does this by saying they are all symptoms of western corruption. Only the most self deluding person could maintain that false claim, while totally ignoring the evidence of their own eyes and ears.

So let the West withdraw completely from any involvement in the Muslim lands, and then we'll have nothing to provide the impetus for such complaints. I'd be just as glad as you think you'll be, to see that happening. You can't be there running our countries and then say "Don't complain that we ruin your countries". Get out and then say it.


Quote:

These muslim perverts even made the pedophile clergymen of the catholics look positively benevolent by comparison.

Difference being that the clergy ARE part of the Church, these scum are the most unIslamic people in the society. They are your garbage, not ours. The Muslims pushed them into a tiny little corner of Afghanistan and would've eventually finished them off if you hadn't brought them to power and carried them into Kabul on your tanks.

Please don't try and blame your filth on us. You brought them to power, you prop them up and you support and facilitate their filth as the Canadian soldiers testified, by even giving them a place to carry out these despicable acts. You cannot deny the responsibility the West holds for this abomination.

Quote:

Easy. Type "homoeroticism in islam" into Google Scholar and see what comes up. Or buy the book: Homoeroticism in Classical Arabic Literature

Revisionist trash.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2010 at 2:39pm:

mozza, Quote: To persist in maintaining this fantasy, he needs to disregard all the evidence of immoral and violent behaviour that we see in the world's current Islamic nations, and he does this by saying they are all symptoms of western corruption. Only the most self deluding person could maintain that false claim, while totally ignoring the evidence of their own eyes and ears. So let the West withdraw completely from any involvement in the Muslim lands, and then we'll have nothing to provide the impetus for such complaints. I'd be just as glad as you think you'll be, to see that happening. You can't be there running our countries and then say "Don't complain that we ruin your countries". Get out and then say it. [quote]These muslim perverts even made the pedophile clergymen of the catholics look positively benevolent by comparison.

Difference being that the clergy ARE part of the Church, these scum are the most unIslamic people in the society. They are your garbage, not ours. The Muslims pushed them into a tiny little corner of Afghanistan and would've eventually finished them off if you hadn't brought them to power and carried them into Kabul on your tanks.

Please don't try and blame your filth on us. You brought them to power, you prop them up and you support and facilitate their filth as the Canadian soldiers testified, by even giving them a place to carry out these despicable acts. You cannot deny the responsibility the West holds for this abomination.
[/quote]


United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (UIF, Jabha-yi Muttahid-i Islami-yi Milli bara-yi Nijat-i Afghanistan), more commonly known as the Northern Alliance.


What does 'Islami-yi' mean in Pashto?

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2010 at 2:39pm:

Quote: Easy. Type "homoeroticism in islam" into Google Scholar and see what comes up. Or buy the book: Homoeroticism in Classical Arabic Literature Revisionist trash.

Abu, face it... Cloister one sex from the other as completely as Islam does and libido will find an outlet... Just like in a prison.

Quote:

What does 'Islami-yi' mean in Pashto?

The Democratic Republic of the Congo (French: République démocratique du Congo)... What does démocratique mean in French?? Unless of course you mean to tell me Congo is an example of democracy???

Or perhaps this one??

North Korea, officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK)...

Quote:

Abu, face it... Cloister one sex from the other as completely as Islam does and libido will find an outlet... Just like in a prison.

Islam doesn't do that though. Islam encourages people to marry and marry upon reaching puberty.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2010 at 5:32pm:

Quote: What does 'Islami-yi' mean in Pashto? The Democratic Republic of the Congo (French: République démocratique du Congo)... What does démocratique mean in French?? Unless of course you mean to tell me Congo is an example of democracy??? Or perhaps this one?? North Korea, officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK)...

Interesting. Democracy, a corruptable political system, not a religion. Islam, also a corruptable political system. I get it.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2010 at 5:33pm:

Quote: Abu, face it... Cloister one sex from the other as completely as Islam does and libido will find an outlet... Just like in a prison. Islam doesn't do that though. Islam encourages people to marry and marry upon reaching puberty.

Never mind that not all pubescent girls in a modern society desire a life where they're under-educated and duffed up with 2 kids by 15... And never mind that not all boys are capable of taking on the responsibilities of marriage at 13. No doubt its common in backward and primitive countries such as the backblocks of Afghanistan or Pakistan where they cling to a twisted form of Islam that would have more in common with Christianity of the dark ages. In a modern society, Islam in its present form has no place.

It's clear, also that Muhammad had paedophilic tendencies in that he had a sexual interest in pre-pubescent children... a custom that unfortunately in some Islamic countries (such as Yemen) is still practised. Given that the founder of the religion clearly approved of paedophilia, it should come as no surprise that it's a feature of some Islamic societies.

Quote:

And fd, stop being so disingenious, trying to casually associate marriage to girls when they reach puberty with this filthy act.

I did nothing of the sort. Though I find it hard to disentangle the two. Thanks for bringing that up. The west has far higher standards than Islam when it comes to protecting children from sexual exploitation.

Quote:

It's clear, also that Muhammad had paedophilic tendencies in that he had a sexual interest in pre-pubescent children...

If this were the case, then wouldn't it have made more sense to make puberty-minus-1year for example the age of consent in Islam? Surely it'd be pretty daft for puberty to made the age of consent if one supposedly had tendancies for pre-pubescants??

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2010 at 11:19pm:

Quote: It's clear, also that Muhammad had paedophilic tendencies in that he had a sexual interest in pre-pubescent children... If this were the case, then wouldn't it have made more sense to make puberty-minus-1year for example the age of consent in Islam? Surely it'd be pretty daft for puberty to made the age of consent if one supposedly had tendancies for pre-pubescants??

Probably he aligned his "revelations" to common local practise but wasn't intending to follow them (at least the ones that he didn't like, after all be was most likely only paying lip service to current tradition where he needed to). Something like L Ron Hubbard's attitude towards his own revelations... He concocted them but did not feel compelled to abide by them... Common enough I guess when you're making it up on the fly.

Quote:

If this were the case, then wouldn't it have made more sense to make puberty-minus-1year for example the age of consent in Islam?

You think it would make sense for a law to require people to predict the date a girl hits puberty? Perhaps it makes sense to you because all the dirty old middle eastern men would get to line up prepubescent girls and study them in detail, rather than having to put up with post pubescent girl brides.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2010 at 10:51am:

If you claim it's an age old "tradition" then prove it.

Bruce W. Dunne, "Homosexuality in the Middle East: An Agenda for Historical Research," Arab Studies Quarterly 12/3 & 4 (1990), pp. 55-82.

I'll post some extracts if you can't access it online.

You can also read a whole book on the subject at Google Books:

SEXUALITY AND EROTICISM AMONG MALES IN MOSLEM SOCIETIES,  ARNO SCHMITT and  JEHOEDA
SOFER EDITORS

soren - post some extracts.
abu will prob get off on them.

Good reference soren, but unless they are sanctioned as islamically correct by sheik ya doodle atum, then abu will decry it as western propaganda, against the good and noble men of his country.

By the way, what is his country?
I have seen him identify himself with lebanese, iraqis, afghanis, pakistanis, in fact most middle eastern backwaters, but not so much with australia, which sometimes gets described as a western "them", by him, against his "our" for the others.

Back to the pervy muslim sickos who molest children of both sexes, while you were looking up dirty deeds done by these islamic interferers, did you come across anything about their predilection for goats?

We know that ancient cultures were more accepting of zoosexual practices, and as Islam is so keen on sticking to it's ancient "roots" ;D ;D ;D (sorry, I couldn't help myself, as mohammed said to the schoolgirl)

Discussion of the medieval Arab treatise on passive homosexuality, hubna.


http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=UgKQ4KNDjsgC&oi=fnd&pg=PA159&dq=Treatise+on+the+Hidden+Illness&ots=FcGyMlxaKx&sig=4uFoN5r_AQ7HVJiEZFMchKTBnPA#v=onepage&q=Treatise%20on%20the%20Hidden%20Illness&f=false

Richard Burton observed that sodomy was common in the Middle East and noted that a French officer (Sonnini) who had traveled to Egypt in 1717 "had drawn the darkest picture of the widely-spread criminality especially of the bestiality and sodomy which formed the delight of the Egyptians."( n30)

In early 19th-century Syria, Burckhart, visiting among the Druse and commenting on marriage customs and adultery, recorded that "unnatural propensities are very common amongst them."( n31)

Gustave Flaubert wrote from Cairo to a friend in 1850: "Here it is quite accepted. One admits one's sodomy, and it is spoken of at table in the hotel. . . . It's at the baths that such things take place."( n32)

At an international conference on the prevention of syphilis and venereal diseases held in Brussels in 1899, the report on Turkey stated that "[p]ederasty is very widespread in the Orient. Without exaggeration, one could say that most of the `hammams,' Turkish baths, are bordellos of boys."( n33)

Louis de Chenier was appointed French Consul at Mogador (now Essaouira) in 1767. He wrote that the rise to wealth and luxury in Fez had quickly been followed by licentiousness: "The public baths, which health, cleanliness, and custom, rendered necessary, became the receptacles of debauchery, into which men were introduced in the dress of women; and the youth of the city ranged the streets, after sun set, in the same disguise, to prevail upon strangers to go with them to the inns, which were rather houses of prostitution . . . ." Chenier suggests that the early rulers of Fez "connived at these abuses" and that the "subservience of all morals" was a source of political advantage.( n34)

A member of the French military mission at Fez in the late 19th century wrote that "[s]odomy is not a vice in Morocco, it is almost a virtue. . . . They are so little embarrassed by it that they arrange a rendez-vous in the middle of a cabinet meeting."( n35)

Relying upon several French sources, Gavin Maxwell states that, before the arrival of the French, homosexuality "between man and boy was never considered shameful or abnormal in Morocco," that homosexual prostitution existed, and that boys accompanied imperial troops for the satisfaction of sexual needs on military campaigns.( n36)

References:
(n30.) Sir Richard F. Burton, The Sotadic Zone (Boston: Milford House, 1973), 45-50.
(n31.) John L. Burckhart. Travel in Syria and Holy Land (London: John Murray. 1822), 202.
(n32.) Greenberg. 179, citing Gustave Flaubert, trans., Francis Steegmuller. The Letters of Gustave Flaubert, 1830-1857 (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1979), 111.
(n33.) Professor von During, "Prostitution et maladies veneriennes en Turquie," Conference internationale pour la propylaxie de la syphilis et des maladies veneriennes (Bruxelles, 1899), Vol. I, Part II, 93-98, 95. (My translation).
(n34.) Louis de Chenier. The Present State of the Empire of Morocco (London: G.G.J. and J. Robinson, 1788), 73-74.
(n35.) Douglas Porch, The Conquest of Morocco (New York: Alfred Knopf, 1983), 32, quoting from Jules Erckman, Le Maroc moderne (Paris, 1885).*
(n36.) Gavin Maxwell, The Lord of the Atlas (London: Century Publishing, Ltd., 1983), 286-289, citing: Dr. Paul Chatinieres, Dans les grands Atlas marocains (Plon, 1919); Christian Houel, Le Maroc (n.d.);* and Maurice Privat, venus au Maroc (Documents Secrets, 1921).* See also Rom Landau, Moroccan Journal (London: Robert Hale, Ltd., 1952), 180181 ("Sexual intercourse among men is fairly prevalent; in actual practice, neither active pederasty in a man nor passive pederasty in a boy is considered a disgrace.")

Is that meant to be in favour of your case or against it?

Come on most of this nonsense was debunked as orientalist fantasy and propaganda centuries ago. It's sad that it was invented by a Europe which found such things abominable (not unlike their Muslim counterparts) and now their propagandous lies are used by a very homosexually-tolerant Europe to try and claim the Muslim lands were hotbeds of homoerotic garbage, again as propaganda against them.

Before to say how "unlike us" they are, and now to proclaim how "like us" they are.

Sodomy always has and always will be a capital offense under Islam. You know it as well as I do, so why degrade yourself and your pathetic chance at an argument by bringing such tripe?

The anthropologist Carleton Coon found that the mountain Berbers of northern Morocco held markets where boys "stolen from their families" were sold for purposes of sodomy as well as to serve as apprentices in their purchasers' businesses.( n38) While Coon's understanding of "theft" may be questioned, Westermarck also found a homosexual dimension in the relationship between apprentice and master in northern Morocco, with intercourse between them considered a means for the boy's learning the skills or trade of his master.( n39) The prostitution of young boys remains common in Fez today.( n40)
These materials depict the homosocial world of Arab men -- the world of the streets, the cafes, the military, the hammams -- as one in which homosexual practices were common and accepted. Homosexuality may have functioned as an integral part of the pre-colonial Moroccan military system and may similarly have been important in satisfying the sexual interests of Ottoman troops. While-homosexual practices were not limited to the upper classes, the nature of homosexual relationships -- street encounters, prostitution, ongoing relations with favorites -- may have varied among the different classes. Moreover, they may have played an institutional role in the apprentice systems of craft and petty manufacturing economies. The apparent prevalence of male prostitution also suggests an institutional role within the social and economic structure of a patriarchal system. In pre-colonial Morocco, and perhaps in other parts of the Middle East, female prostitution was authorized by the government and served as a significant source of tax revenues.( n41) Male prostitution may have also served a fiscal function, whether through direct taxation or through fees collected from cafes and hammams. In both cases, fiscal regulation would reflect a dimension of state control.


The foregoing are not without parallels in the historical experience of Early Modern Europe. Thus, asymmetrical homosexual relationships have been identified as a component of the structure of the artisanal apprenticeship system of Renaissance Europe, an arena of hierarchical male intimacy.( n42)

Contemporary Arab Fiction
Literary images offer another source of Arab perceptions and representations of homosexual practices.( n44) Those presented here are from works of fiction, autobiography and autobiographical fiction by three contemporary Moroccan writers -- Mohammed Choukri, Mohammed Mrabet and Larbi Layachi -- each from a poor, rural background and each at one time associated with the expatriate American novelist, Paul Bowles, who translated and transcribed their early works from taped Moroccan Arabic, two Algerians -- Ali Ghanem, also of rural, peasant background, and Rachid Boujedra -- both presently residing in France; and the prolific Egyptian novelist, Naguib Mahfouz. The term "images" is used deliberately in that none of the works discussed has a predominantly homosexual theme; rather, homosexual acts and perceptions of homosexuality appear, often in relatively minor ways. No claim is made that this sampling of North African texts is representative of Arab culture in general or of specific Arab societies. The voices, however, are Arab voices, and it is such voices that are most needed in order to inform the study of homosexuality in the Middle East.

In his autobiography, For Bread Alone,( n45) the young Choukri leaves his rural family's poverty and his brutal, violent father to fend for himself in Tangier. The street youth of Tangier do whatever is necessary to survive -- odd jobs, smuggling, stealing -- and live in fear of predatory sexual assaults by older boys. Choukri finds work with a European family and experiences his awakening, adolescent sexuality while spying on his employer's wife. Aroused by one such experience, he takes a neighbor's younger boy, "handsome and delicate as a girl," for a walk in the woods, offers him some wine and subsequently rapes him. Choukri experiences no guilt, is lightly scolded by his aunt, and proceeds to broaden his sexual experiences by frequenting female prostitutes. A comparable incident is the subject of a short story by Mohammed Mrabet in which two male roommates are visited by a friend of one of them.( n46) The other roommate dislikes the visitor, and a situation of growing tension and hostility is "resolved" by his drugging and sexually assaulting the visitor in such a way that the assault appears to have been committed by the visitor's friend, effectively severing their relationship. It is unclear whether the roommates are having a sexual relationship, but sexual rivalry seems the most likely basis for both the tension and the instrumentality of its resolution. In both of these works, the sexual act is a modality of domination and self-assertion, an exercise of power and control. In Mrabet's story, it serves to break up one male alliance while reinforcing another.

Larbi Layachi's The Jealous Lover( n47) relates the story of two men in jail who are described as "lovers." The men, aged 35 and 20, have been imprisoned for a sexual incident with a young boy who had consented to having sex with the older of the two for money, and who had received payment but nonetheless reported the incident to the police. The other prisoners conspire to punish the couple and each night sexually assault, not the older man who had actually engaged in sex with the boy, but his lover who is "young and good looking [and not] too old to make love to."( n48) That the two men live together as "lovers" is presented nonjudgmentally. As for their "crime," the author comments: "Islam forbids a man to make love to boys. Of course. they all do it, but when someone gets caught it's still disgraceful."( n49) The theme of hypocrisy is highlighted by the prisoners' claiming justification for seeking sexual gratification with the younger of the lovers on the basis of having to punish the older one for his "filthy act." The crime is not homosexuality, but the public exposure of conventionally unacceptable, if nonetheless widespread, behavior, in effect a failure of a social strategy of concealment.

With Ali Ghanem's The Seven-Headed Serpent,( n50) the locale shifts to the mountain villages and cities of Algeria during the independence struggle. Themes of sexual repression and patriarchal oppression dominate the first part of the novel. In the village, the onset of puberty is accompanied by mutual masturbation among the village boys. For the young protagonist, the pleasure of sexual release is enhanced by the knowledge that masturbation is considered sinful and that his harsh, aloof, and seemingly arbitrary and unloving father would disapprove. Later, after the family has been forced to move to a coastal port city, the boy is beaten by his father on the basis of an unfounded suspicion that the boy has engaged in a homosexual act with a dockworker. As a result of this treatment, the boy accepts a homosexual proposition as a conscious act of defiance against his father. "The suspicious, authoritarian, upbringing that my father had given me produced the reverse of the desired effect. I felt no physical pleasure -- rather the opposite -- but I was transgressing a prohibition, flouting my father's authority."( n51)

Rachid Bonjedra's autobiographical novel, La repudiation,( n52) recounts his boyhood acquiescence, for purposes of blackmail, in his seduction by his Quranic schoolmaster. Such incidents are presented as commonplace and generally known about by parents who "shut their eyes to it, so as not to have to accuse a man who bears the word of God in his heart."( n53) The bitterness of the author's recollection gives way to the adult reflection that responsibility for the event lies with poverty, in a system that makes marriage and even brothels too expensive for the poor. Boujedra suggests a broad complicity in conscious dissonance between social realities and religious norms. The exploitive homosexual act is tacitly accepted as a functional accommodation of the constraints imposed by patriarchal control of sexuality.

Quote:

Sodomy always has and always will be a capital offense under Islam. You know it as well as I do, so why degrade yourself and your pathetic chance at an argument by bringing such tripe?

According to my wiki you are wrong. Would you mind clarifying whether this statement or the one in the wiki is the correct version of Islam? I would hate for the wiki to contain any errors.

abu - sorens multiple references examples garner more weight than you single biased defense.

It's not that us men are "bad", but when we are segregated from beautiful women whom we are meant to be with................ somethings got to give.

such is one of the failings of islam

Your wiki is a load of [unread] bollocks.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 25^th, 2010 at 9:41pm:

Your wiki is a load of [unread] bollocks.

But it is right? And you are wrong? Right?

HOMOSEXUALITY AND OTTOMAN MILITARY SOCIETY
A number of the European accounts and other sources previously referred to have emphasized homosexual practices as an aspect of or, indeed, as originating with, Arab or Muslim conquering elites and military or slave societies Thus, boys accompanied Moroccan armies to provide sexual services;( n84) "the militarization of the highest social classes contributed to [a pattern of homosexual relations] with its stress on masculine society";( n85) rivalry among Ottoman troops for the favors of a dancing boy resulted in rioting;( n86) and the "cult" of male youths was a "privilege" of "warlike conquerors."( n87) In his study of slavery, Orlando Patterson has noted that "[t]he homosexual use of slaves remained an important aspect of Islamic slavery right down to modern times. It was particularly common among elite masters."( n88) Patterson is referring to Ottoman and Egyptian Mamluk societies, that is, to elite, slave-based, military systems.( n89)
...
The presence and function of homosexuality in the Ottoman system have been of greater interest to 19th- and early 20th- century historians than to contemporary ones. Edward Creasy, his "pen recoil[ing] from this detestable subject," claimed that widespread homosexual practices were initiated by Bayezid I and his vizier, Ali Pasha, and soon spread among the "Ottoman grandees." With respect to Bayezid's expansion of the recruitment of boys as slaves, Creasy stated: "It became Turkish practice to procure by treaty, by purchase, by force or by fraud bands of the fairest children of the conquered Christians who were placed in the palaces of the Sultan, his viziers, and his pachas, under the title of pages, but too often really to serve as the helpless materials of abomination."( n94) Creasy's principal source was Hammer, who found that the vice of Bayezid and his vizier spread to the army and the people, even to the ulema, and became a path to promotion in the empire and the cause of wars.( n95)
In his classic study (193) of Ottoman institutions, Lybyer, while acknowledging the "prevalence of sodomy among Ottomans in high position that some pages were "afflicted" by it and that "occasionally a sultan became enamored of a page," rejected as a "singular perversion of the truth" Hammer's assertion that homosexuality was essentially the raison d'etre of the page system.( n96) Inalcik, in turn, has dismissed as "totally without foundation" what he characterizes as Lybyer's view of the possible "influence of Plato's republic" on the slave system.( n97)
Ricaut's The Present State of the Ottoman Empire( n98) is a principal source relied upon by Lybyer and by many others( n99) in acknowledging homosexual practices within the Ottoman slave system. Ricaut went to Istanbul in 1661 as secretary to the English ambassador. He described the Ottoman page training system and the imperial "seraglio" of young men in considerable detail stating variously:
[T]hese youths must be of admirable features, and pleasing looks, well-shaped in their bodies, and without any defects of nature.
Not only in the seraglio, but also in the Courts of great men, their personal attendants have been comely, lusty youths. . .
Their bed-chambers are long chambers where all night lamps are kept burning: . . . between every five or six [beds] lies an Eunuch, so as conveniently to see or overhear if there be an, wanton or lewd behavior or discourse amongst them.
[T]he restraint and strictures of Discipline makes them strangers to [women]: for want of conversation with them, they burn in lust one towards another.

HOMOSEXUALITY AND THE COMING OF THE WEST
As noted above, the words of "Sheikh" Darwish in Naquib Mahfouz' Midaq Alley suggest that the concept of homosexuality as defining a particular type person and a category of "deviance" came to the Middle East through the agency] of the West. This notion is heightened by the novel's taking place in Cairo during the 1940's, a time of great political and social turmoil, with the presence of the British army, a burgeoning war industry and war profiteering undermining conventional notions of morality and propriety. The times encouraged Kirsha to make public his longstanding but previously discreetly conducted homosexual liaisons, and his contemporaries reacted with ambivalence and uncertainty. As a period of unusual social freedom in Egypt, the 1940's could set the boundaries for a very useful study of Egyptian homosexual practices and attitudes toward them.
Europeans were shocked by what they perceived as widespread, overt homosexuality in the Middle East. As their presence and power increased, so did the influence of their views on morality and proper behavior and their ability to shape them. Burton noted: "In the present age extensive intercourse with Europeans has produced not a reformation but a certain reticence among the upper classes . . . they do not care for displaying their vices to the eyes of mocking "( n108) "Homosexuality between man and boy was never considered in any way abnormal or shameful in Morocco until the infiltration of European opinion with the French."( n109) Hatem suggests that in Egypt, "public legitimacy and recognition of homosexuality reached its highest point" with the ascension of the homosexual Khedive Abbas, but that his murder and "the spread of Western cultural influence during the second half of the 19th Century all contributed to the eventual social and political decline of homosexuality."( n110)
As the principal colonial arm of Western science, medical officials advocated suppressing both homosexuality and male and female prostitution (except as regulated for the use of colonial troops) for purposes of improving health and sanitary conditions.( n111) One of the first acts by French troops upon arriving in Moroccan towns following the establishment of the Protectorate was to arrest all young boys on the streets after dark and subject them to medical examinations.( n112) The French doctor who described this procedure noted that the suppression of homosexuality in Morocco would proceed by "the education of the natives and by persuasion"; noting also that the absence of the repression of homosexuality in Morocco gave it, special attraction for "certain Europeans," he concluded that this was the sort of "specialty to which it would be desirable for the French Protectorate to put an end."( n113) Colonial authorities, at least in Morocco, thus conceived as falling within the scope of their "mission" the altering of the sexual practices and customs of the indigenes. Interestingly, their intent was in part to prevent the exposure of or access by Europeans to a less sexually repressive environment.
Presumably, colonial archival materials--police records, administrative reports, judicial proceedings, health and sanitation policies, regulations with respect to brothels and homosexual meeting places --contain a wealth of information as to European attitudes toward homosexual practices and efforts to alter or regulate them. Knowledge of such efforts would lend a highly nuanced perspective to the study of colonialism as a mechanism for social and political control, and could reveal the dynamics of the colonial en counter as an accommodation between Western and Arab patriarchal systems in which Arab patriarchs surrendered economic and political power and, perhaps, privatized or stigmatized those sexual practices particularly offensive or threatening to European notions of morality and public order, while retaining an enhanced control over the family, matters of persona] status and women. ( n114)

Are you still going soren?

I haven't read in detail the garbage you've posted, but I don't think I've come across a single reference to Afghanistan in all these orientalist fantasies?

Wasn't the point to supposedly show that it's an age old Afghan custom?

All interesting reads, Soren. Looks like a few here might like to try it. You know, the bigger the post, the bigger...

Not that there's anything wrong with it, of course.

I think Oscar Wilde said going back to women was like doing it with a side of cold mutton.

I've left my number on a toilet door in Auburn if anyone's interested. I'll be there Sundays from 2pm.

No need to tell the wife, eh? What they don't know won't hurt them.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 26^th, 2010 at 9:50pm:

Are you still going soren? I haven't read in detail the garbage you've posted, but I don't think I've come across a single reference to Afghanistan in all these orientalist fantasies? Wasn't the point to supposedly show that it's an age old Afghan custom?

It's an age old Muslim custom.

Islam and Arab patriarchy have evolved historically into a social structure predicated upon the strict separation of men from women and the subordination of women to men and young to old. The control of women through such practices as segregation, seclusion, veiling, arranged marriages and endogamy serves the interests of male domination and the legitimation and preservation of patrilineal property rights. In the Islamic world view, male and female, masculine and feminine, represent different, complementary "orders." The harmony of the whole, of the complementarily of the sexual division, is achieved by men assuming their masculine roles and women assuming their feminine roles; the separate orders achieve unity only in the context of marriage as the realm of legitimate sexuality and filiation.( n70) All modes of sexual desire which violate this order or transgress the boundaries of masculinity and femininity -- homosexuality, prostitution, transvestism -- are prohibited.( n71) "Zina" is disorder.
Islamic patriarchy is fraught with contradictions. It sanctions and values sexual pleasure but narrowly confines the arena in which it may be achieved With the establishment of separate worlds for men and women, the "meeting of the sexes [became] so enveloped in prohibition, so meticulously regulated, so jealously reduced to the strict minimum that there was a constant temptation to violate [the prohibitions]."( n72) For the male youth, entry into adulthood "means to frequent only men, to see only men to spear; only to men. . . . Everywhere, in the souk, in the medersa and in the cafe, the youth belongs to an all male community."( n73) As portrayed in the Arabic literature reviewed above, for the youth experiencing sexual desire or the man awaiting the arrangement of a marriage or unable to afford marriage (or a prostitute), both homosexuality and prostitution are encouraged and, indeed, become necessary and acceptable. Bouhdiba argues that the prevalence of prostitution in (Arabo-Muslim societies, despite strong prohibitions against it. attests to its institutional role and de facto legitimacy as a means of integrating and accommodating the social needs of those for whom normative religio-social roles are unattainable.( n74) A study of transsexualism  in the Omani coastal town of Sohar suggests that the same may be said of homosexuality.( n75)

The Omani transsexuals ("xanith") function as male homosexual prostitutes. They retain male names, wear dress which is neither entirely masculine nor entirely feminine, and are regarded as women for purposes of sexual segregation and the sexual division of labor but as men for juridical purposes. They can become "men," fully regarded as such, by marrying and demonstrating their ability to consummate the marriage. Thus, sexual behavior -- the sexual act, not anatomical sexuality -- is "constitutive" of gender and of gender identity. The man who patronizes the xanith and performs the male sexual role does not compromise his masculinity; because only women may perform the passive, female role, all male prostitutes, whether or not transsexuals, are considered transsexuals. In the absence of sexual activity, among the very young or the old, anatomical sexuality does determine gender identity. The study concludes that the xanith constitute an institutionalized, intermediate sexual role serving distinct social functions. Because women are conceptualized as pure, the xanith, as prostitutes, cannot be fully assimilated as women; their role as prostitute both disassociates women from that role and supports the conceptualization of women as virtuous in accordance with Muslim ideals. Similarly, the availability of male prostitutes provides an outlet for male sexual desire which does not result in pressures upon pure women and which is harmless in the sense that it does not infringe upon another male's rights over a woman. The "State practices a laissez-faire policy towards" homosexual prostitution because of its "utility."( n76) Homosexuality and prostitution form "part of the secret equilibrium of the Arabo-Muslim societies."( n77) They permit the Islamic patriarchal system to withstand the stress of its inherent contradictions.

Thanks, Soren. I love it when you talk about patriarchy. It makes me go all weak at the knees.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1^st, 2010 at 11:58am:

ah, good helian - so it is from your own research. yes, I'ld think to be "seperated" from women would be weird for a mens sexuality. unnatural. the bible says preists etc SHOULD be married, for some reason kafflicks disagree on this one.

catholic preists can be married, and tehre are married catholic priests, its just not practice atm.

why is that?

well in the middle ages it was decided one could devote more time to god if he was single than if he was married and had to share time.