I find this incredibly ironic in the light of our jumping up & down about Japanese whaling. although as I've said many times, I find the killing of whales appalling.
Between 1820-1840, whaling was Australia's biggest industry, only being eclipsed after that by wool.
100's of whaling ships & boats were built in Hobart & Sydney. Sperm whales were hunted in the pacific and bay whales were hunted around the southern coasts and Tasmanian inlets. In addition provisioning was made available to large numbers of American whalers all the way from New England bases.
Millions of dollars worth of whale oil (used as pre-kerosene fuel for lamps) was shipped to England, not to mention scores of thousands of sealskins. Yep, we were pretty big in the clubbing slaughter of those pesky little critters too.
Puts it into perspective a bit. What goes around comes around (or is my vice versa)

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 12:40pm:

I find this incredibly ironic in the light of our jumping up & down about Japanese whaling. although as I've said many times, I find the killing of whales appalling. Between 1820-1840, whaling was Australia's biggest industry, only being eclipsed after that by wool. 100's of whaling ships & boats were built in Hobart & Sydney. Sperm whales were hunted in the pacific and bay whales were hunted around the southern coasts and Tasmanian inlets. In addition provisioning was made available to large numbers of American whalers all the way from New England bases. Millions of dollars worth of whale oil (used as pre-kerosene fuel for lamps) was shipped to England, not to mention scores of thousands of sealskins. Yep, we were pretty big in the clubbing slaughter of those pesky little critters too. Puts it into perspective a bit. What goes around comes around (or is my vice versa)

Those are valid points Bogarde...
But they miss a couple of relevant points.....

Commerical whaling is currently under a moratorium (i.e suspended by International Agreement) and all the products that used to be aquired by whaling can now be produced cheaper and 'easier' by synthetic or alternative means..so it's somewhat unnecessary..

And the big points ( from my point of view at least) are why is it necessary to kill the whales 'for scientific research' into reproduction rates??? You can find out the same thing by standing on the shore (or in a boat) and counting them as they swim past every year...

And why is it necessary to sail across 3/4 quarters of the planet to catch them in Antarctica, when they spend half the year in northern waters, near Japan????

All I'm saying is: if you used to live in a glass house you better think before you throw stones.  8-)

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 3:07pm:

All I'm saying is: if you used to live in a glass house you better think before you throw stones.  8-)

Granted...but we stopped whaling, in 1978, when the treaties were signed...

We have recently acquired a taboo on whaling, so there is apparently nothing hypocritical about getting on our high horse and talking down to whalers. Especially the Japs. After all, we won the war.


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Commerical whaling is currently under a moratorium (i.e suspended by International Agreement) and all the products that used to be aquired by whaling can now be produced cheaper and 'easier' by synthetic or alternative means..so it's somewhat unnecessary..

Oh really gizmo? So you think we should burn fossil fuiels instead of renewable source? Can you explain how to manufacture 'articifical' whale meat? Honestly, the crap that the animal welfare lobby spews forth in their attempts to ban whaling completely is just mind boggling.

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 3:07pm:

All I'm saying is: if you used to live in a glass house you better think before you throw stones.  8-)

Its more a case of we moved into a brick house and started throwing rocks at the glass houses.

Our moral high ground is actuall non-existant. Everyone else seems to realise this, except us.

I understand the point but I would still rather see people aiming at the moral high ground then to be with those targeting the moral low ground.

What is the moral high ground? I see no high ground in the hypocrisy of the anti-whaling mob.

Morals... :-)

They are lacking greatly in Australia’s approach to this issue.

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 4:27pm:

We have recently acquired a taboo on whaling, so there is apparently nothing hypocritical about getting on our high horse and talking down to whalers. Especially the Japs. After all, we won the war. Quote: Commerical whaling is currently under a moratorium (i.e suspended by International Agreement) and all the products that used to be aquired by whaling can now be produced cheaper and 'easier' by synthetic or alternative means..so it's somewhat unnecessary.. Oh really gizmo? So you think we should burn fossil fuiels instead of renewable source? Can you explain how to manufacture 'articifical' whale meat? Honestly, the crap that the animal welfare lobby spews forth in their attempts to ban whaling completely is just mind boggling.

Isn't beef, fish, chicken, pork etc an alternative to whale meat FD???
Even in Japan, most of the whale meat is used for pet food...Norway has a higher consumption rate for whale meat, but they hunt locally under the Indigenous( Aboriginal) whaling rules of the IWC.....

Ambergris has been replaced by synthetics, Whale oil has been replaced by Jojoba oil, which is considered a better substance.....and as for whale teeth and whale bone used in jewellery and corsetry...there are a great many alternative materials usable in scrimshaw carving....and how many women regulary wear corsets these days????

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Isn't beef, fish, chicken, pork etc an alternative to whale meat FD???

Yes. What's your point?


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Ambergris has been replaced by synthetics, Whale oil has been replaced by Jojoba oil, which is considered a better substance.....and as for whale teeth and whale bone used in jewellery and corsetry...there are a great many alternative materials usable in scrimshaw carving....and how many women regulary wear corsets these days????

What synthetic alternative to meat is there? Or is that what the question about chicken was for? Are you suggesting it is somehow more 'moral' to ban one type of meat because you can replace it with some other type of meat? If so, perhaps you should explain your reasoning. Hopefully it doesn't boil down to imposing your taboos on racially inferior groups.

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. Hopefully it doesn't boil down to imposing your taboos on racially inferior groups.

lmao

You can cut the crap, Freediver. You know you can (and are) making great points without having to resort to silly emotive little snipes like that.

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 10:05pm:

Quote: Isn't beef, fish, chicken, pork etc an alternative to whale meat FD??? Yes. What's your point? [quote]Ambergris has been replaced by synthetics, Whale oil has been replaced by Jojoba oil, which is considered a better substance.....and as for whale teeth and whale bone used in jewellery and corsetry...there are a great many alternative materials usable in scrimshaw carving....and how many women regulary wear corsets these days????

What synthetic alternative to meat is there? Or is that what the question about chicken was for? Are you suggesting it is somehow more 'moral' to ban one type of meat because you can replace it with some other type of meat? If so, perhaps you should explain your reasoning. Hopefully it doesn't boil down to imposing your taboos on racially inferior groups.[/quote]

No, I'm saying it's silly (and maybe immoral, but morals vary) to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars harvesting a meat source when no-one eats it and it ends up as dog food or in a freezer for decades (or even allowed to rot)....

So it is silly to feed our pets? Tell me gizmo, how much money do you think Australians spend on pet food?

And you support whaling for human consumption?

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 10:08pm:

No, I'm saying it's silly (and maybe immoral, but morals vary) to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars harvesting a meat source when no-one eats it and it ends up as dog food or in a freezer for decades (or even allowed to rot)....

Agree. It is silly to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (some do) on pig shooting. Most of that meat rots. but pigs are bad.

Morally, as a contributing participant of western consumption... you're talking out you're arse.

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 10:22pm:

So it is silly to feed our pets? Tell me gizmo, how much money do you think Australians spend on pet food? And you support whaling for human consumption?

No, it's not silly to feed our pets....but our pets will eat pet food made from any source of meat...

But the Japanese Government subsidise the 'research' whaling to the tune of millions of dollars every year, just so it can break even.....

Does that sound like it's economically viable??

Norway hunts whales too...but they catch just enough to meet demand, whereas Japan is trying to encourage or create a demand to meet the catch, by basically giving the meat away in school lunches, and selling it cheap......which isn't really working...

The only reason for Japan's whaling seems to be that other countries and environmental groups say they shouldn't..

jame-e wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 10:28pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 22nd, 2011 at 10:08pm: No, I'm saying it's silly (and maybe immoral, but morals vary) to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars harvesting a meat source when no-one eats it and it ends up as dog food or in a freezer for decades (or even allowed to rot).... Agree. It is silly to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (some do) on pig shooting. Most of that meat rots. but pigs are bad. Morally, as a contributing participant of western consumption... you're talking out you're arse.

Are whales classed as vermin now and in almost plague proportions???

To compare shooting pests on a local farm to stop destruction of crops and livestock with travelling across 3/4 of the planet to kill and catch something ,for human comsumption that no one wants to eat is 'talking out you're arse'...

The basic point is not 'moral' or 'environmental'.....it's simply this...there IS a moratorium on commercial whaling...and Japan is pretending to do research but is really commerical whaling, and it's not economically viable...so is therefore pointless..

I have a bit of an aversion towards killing highly intelligent animals, especially whaling, and why ?

Because they are highly intelligent and emotional creatures.
Whales are known to teach, learn, cooperate, scheme, and even grieve, not unlike humans, I feel the same way about elephants, they are intelligent too, and even have funerals.

Is whale meat a vital resource?

Will they cease to exist without eating Moby-Dick?

::)

Quote:

Humans are bipedal creatures from Earth, and the third most intelligent species on that planet, surpassed only by mice and dolphins. Originally thought to have evolved from proto-apes, humans may in fact be descendants of Golgafrinchan telephone sanitizers, account executives, and marketing analysts who were tricked out of leaving their home planet to arrive on the planet ca. two million BC. These Golgafrinchans apparently displaced the indigenous cavemen as the organic components in the computer designed by Deep Thought.

From The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy  ;D

Sorry, I'm not trying to take the moral high-ground here, (I realise the Japanese are entitled to hunt and kill what they please, IN THEIR OWN WATERS...I'm just responding to this thread, how I feel personally about whaling, this and don't think they have a right intruding on others waters, in pursuit of something our culture generally has an intense aversion to killing, the same way I wouldn't impose myself on a predominantly Hindu town in India and start gnawing the leg off a sacred cow.

It comes down to mutual respect, and the Japanese intruding on waters who's nations generally disapprove of such activities is disrespectful, so if they wish to continue doing so, then I think they should be brought into line.

Put in their place.

:) Each to their own, so long as it's their own waters they are hunting in. I'm not happy with their killing these gorgeous animals, but if that's their way, then they should do so in their own waters at least, not ours.

Also, many countries local communities rely heavily on whales for tourism, especially during breeding season, whereby they become a star attraction in many parts of the world, so in depleting world wide numbers,(they are migratory animals)  they are effectively impacting on other nations tourism also.


I personally find this image rather needless and disturbing, but that's my own personal view.



http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_full/international/photosvideos/photos/an-endangered-fin-whale-harpo-5.jpg

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The only reason for Japan's whaling seems to be that other countries and environmental groups say they shouldn't..

-Giz

Agreed, I think a big part of it's defiance!

What a miserable excuse to slaughter needlessly, just for the want of being able to say, "WE JAPAN< WE KILL WHAT WE WANT TO"!

::) ....  

Quote:

No, it's not silly to feed our pets....but our pets will eat pet food made from any source of meat...

There you go again with this talk of other meats. But every time I ask you a simple question about what point you are trying to make, you come up with nothing.


Quote:

Are you suggesting it is somehow more 'moral' to ban one type of meat because you can replace it with some other type of meat?

But the Japanese Government subsidise the 'research' whaling to the tune of millions of dollars every year, just so it can break even.....


Quote:

Does that sound like it's economically viable??

Again gizmo, we have been over this too. If there were not so many laws undermining the free market in whale meat, it would be economically viable. You can hardly complain about a government interfering to support it when you also support our government interference.


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The only reason for Japan's whaling seems to be that other countries and environmental groups say they shouldn't..

Strawman. Gizmo, people don;t have to justify their food choices to you in order to justify being allowed to eat it. You need to justify trying to take that food out of their mouths.


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Are whales classed as vermin now and in almost plague proportions???

Minke whales are often referred to as the cokroaches of the sea.

Mellie:


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I have a bit of an aversion towards killing highly intelligent animals, especially whaling, and why ?

So you support a ban on pig farming?


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Because they are highly intelligent and emotional creatures.

Compared to what? Cockroaches?


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Is whale meat a vital resource?

Same question to you:

Are you suggesting it is somehow more 'moral' to ban one type of meat because you can replace it with some other type of meat?


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I realise the Japanese are entitled to hunt and kill what they please, IN THEIR OWN WATERS

So you think no-one should be able to take food from international waters?


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this and don't think they have a right intruding on others waters

The waters do not belong to others any more than to the Japanese. The Japs are not hunting within our legal territory.


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the same way I wouldn't impose myself on a predominantly Hindu town in India and start gnawing the leg off a sacred cow

You have this backwards Mellie. The Japs aren't imposing on us. We are imposing our nsacred cows on them.


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It comes down to mutual respect

We are being extremely hypocritical towards the Japanese. There is no respect in that. We are being complete arseholes to them, and you demand they respect us for it.


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Also, many countries local communities rely heavily on whales for tourism

Have you ever paid to watch minke whales?


Quote:

I personally find this image rather needless and disturbing

Which is why you post them? I am noticing a pattern here Mellie.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2011 at 6:04am:

Are whales classed as vermin now and in almost plague proportions??? To compare shooting pests on a local farm to stop destruction of crops and livestock with travelling across 3/4 of the planet to kill and catch something ,for human comsumption that no one wants to eat is 'talking out you're arse'...

Its simply a matter of perspective yes? Try another one.


gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2011 at 6:04am:

The basic point is not 'moral' or 'environmental'.....it's simply this...there IS a moratorium on commercial whaling...and Japan is pretending to do research but is really commerical whaling, and it's not economically viable...so is therefore pointless..

Pointless to you. I think its pointless spending 30k+ on a boat and trailer plus the cost of a suitable vehicle to pull it plus the rest... All for $50-$100 dollars worth of fish once a month.
Economically viable = no. Environmentally viable = no. Do i envisage you and others mounting the good horse and putting a stop to recreational fishing = no.

Again, its all about perspective.