People refer to these two words quite a lot .. yet I wonder if they're truly understood.

What do you think this phrase means?

Well the idea of Immaculate Conception wasn't added to Catholic doctrine until 1854...

I read somewhere (long ago) that even the idea of the 'Virgin Birth' wasn't added to Church doctrine until sometime in the 11th or 12th century, and the original latin or greek wording in the bible means something more like 'heifer' does in cattle raising.......i.e first child, as opposed to the current meaning of 'never had sex'....

So that would make Jesus simply Mary's first born child, not a child conceived without sexual contact with her husband...

Which doesn't negate the possiblity of a supernatural intervention in the mind or 'spirit/soul' of the child...

It all came about from a spelling mistake. The original word was the Hebrew "almah" (young woman) and this was mistranslated into parthenos, meaning virgin. The gospel writer Matthew quoted Isaiah in what seems to be a derivative of the Septuagint version (all but two of the fifteen Greek words are identical) when he said Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.

I checked with my friend the theology prof, and he confirmed that It is widely accepted among Christian scholars that the story of the virgin birth of Jesus was a late interpolation, put in presumably by Greek-speaking disciples in order that the (mistranslated) prophecy should be seen to be fulfilled.

Some modern versions such as the New English Bible correctly give 'young woman' in Isaiah. They equally correctly leave 'virgin' in Matthew, since there they are translating from the Greek."


Quote:

Isaiah 7:14 (New International Version, ©2010) 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel.[d] Footnotes:   1. Isaiah 7:14 The Hebrew is plural.   2. Isaiah 7:14 Or young woman   3. Isaiah 7:14 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls son, and he or son, and they   4. Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means God with us.

Quote:

[b]New English Bible Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: A young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and will call him Immanuel.

I noticed this post in another topic within Spirituality and it prompted me to start this topic.

Here .. have a read of the topic title and its opening post ..

Is Immaculate Conception Rape?

Today at 12:24pm  

So God screwed Mary, without her permission ... is this Rape?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297736642

The topic title and the above opening post do not make any sense given that Immaculate Conception is a Catholic doctrine which states that MARY was born without original sin.

For some reason, the concept of Immaculate Conception is widely misunderstood. It has nothing to do with Mary's conception of Jesus but with the conception of Mary herself in her mother's womb.

I was answering Gizmo's point about Virgin Birth, but you're right Lisa - many people don't understand the term "immaculate conception", especially non-Catholics.

By the way, both genealogies of Jesus  provide the paternal ancestors (through Joseph).  These are Luke 3:23–38 and Matthew 1:1–17. (They are not identical)

So Matthew's (the Gospel writer) original mistranslation of the word almah in Isaiah resulted in an internal discrepancy within teh Gospel of Matthew that still exists.    

muso wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 3:09pm:

It all came about from a spelling mistake. The original word was the Hebrew "almah" (young woman) and this was mistranslated into parthenos, meaning virgin. The gospel writer Matthew quoted Isaiah in what seems to be a derivative of the Septuagint version (all but two of the fifteen Greek words are identical) when he said Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel. I checked with my friend the theology prof, and he confirmed that It is widely accepted among Christian scholars that the story of the virgin birth of Jesus was a late interpolation, put in presumably by Greek-speaking disciples in order that the (mistranslated) prophecy should be seen to be fulfilled. Some modern versions such as the New English Bible correctly give 'young woman' in Isaiah. They equally correctly leave 'virgin' in Matthew, since there they are translating from the Greek." Quote: Isaiah 7:14 (New International Version, ©2010) 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel.[d] Footnotes:   1. Isaiah 7:14 The Hebrew is plural.   2. Isaiah 7:14 Or young woman   3. Isaiah 7:14 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls son, and he or son, and they   4. Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means God with us. [quote] [b]New English Bible Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: A young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and will call him Immanuel.

[/quote]

Yeah, that's basically it...

.. but you're right Lisa - many people don't understand the term "immaculate conception", especially non-Catholics.

- Muso (Reply No 4 @ 3.27pm)


A very good afternoon to our Global Moderator Muso :)

The concept of Immaculate Conception is widely misunderstood. And it may very well have something to do with the fact that it is a Roman Catholic construct.

The term Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Mary's conception of Jesus but with the conception of Mary herself in her mother's womb ie she was and still is .. considered to be free of Original Sin.

It's most important we understand what this phrase means otherwise we're going to confuse ourselves (and others).

Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?

Aussie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?

Some Jew is my guess.

Aussie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?

One of Jesus' older gay sex partners.

Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?

Itanimulli wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 7:37pm:

Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?

Why does everybody say everybody when it isn't everybody?

Itanimulli asked:  (What an odd Tag......)



Quote:

Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?

Whereas I want to know:


Quote:

So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?

Itanimulli wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 7:37pm:

Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?

It may be a full moon tonight and a few posters have been affected (if some of the other topics up top are anything to go by).

Aussie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?

God (as per the Bible). However this topic isn't about that .. it's about the concept of Immaculate Conception.

It appears not many know what this concept actually means.

If however you wish to discuss who the father of Jesus is .. then by all means you may start another topic.

I am amongst those who were taught that Mary Mother of Jesus was a virgin (not that I ever believed it) - but this is the first time I can ever recall being told anything to the contrary!

Quote:

However this topic isn't about that .. it's about the concept of Immaculate Conception. It appears not many know what this concept actually means. If however you wish to discuss who the father of Jesus is .. then by all means you may start another topic.

How can you logically suggest that Mary's "immaculate conception leading to the birth of Jesus" is somehow not connected to who is the father of Jesus?

Biology 101.

Lisa, either the Angels came down and reassured Joseph that all was well, and that "God" did the job, or something else far more likely happened.

Take yer pick.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 1:56pm:

People refer to these two words quite a lot .. yet I wonder if they're truly understood. What do you think this phrase means?

why didn't Jesus just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ??

Nothing about the story makes any sense unless you are willing to conclude that God is imaginary and a person by the name of Jesus never actually existed !!

If anyone wants a clear and in-depth bible explanation, I suggest reading some of John Shelby Spong's books. He has spent his whole life in the church, always studying, always searching for the truth, he is now a retired bishop.

He has studied Christianity for many decades and tells it like it is....warts and all, the things you won't hear from the fundamentalists.

Some of his books include:

The sins of scripture
Why Christianity must change or die
Jesus for the non-religious
A new Christianity for a new world

The bible has been altered over the years to keep up with science and changing social structures.

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 10:48pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 1:56pm: People refer to these two words quite a lot .. yet I wonder if they're truly understood. What do you think this phrase means? why didn't Jesus just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ?? Nothing about the story makes any sense unless you are willing to conclude that God is imaginary and a person by the name of Jesus never actually existed !!

There seems to be a lot of evidence that Jesus did exist, but he was a mere man, but a real cool dude who did the right thing by society. He would have definitely been a greeny....a real caring compassionate soul.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 6:33am:

If anyone wants a clear and in-depth bible explanation, I suggest reading some of John Shelby Spong's books. He has spent his whole life in the church, always studying, always searching for the truth, he is now a retired bishop. He has studied Christianity for many decades and tells it like it is....warts and all, the things you won't hear from the fundamentalists. Some of his books include: The sins of scripture Why Christianity must change or die Jesus for the non-religious A new Christianity for a new world The bible has been altered over the years to keep up with science and changing social structures.

John Shelby Spong is a great example of where Christianity needs to go (so-called liberal Christianity).  I have a lot of time for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XL8LvaJ9Rc

Christianity has definitely adapted to suit the times - even Roman Catholicism has adapted, thanks to the efforts of the previous Pope.

In some cases the adaptation is a bit too oversimplistic, crass and commercial (thinking of the US inspired churches). You don't need to read the Bible or think too deeply - just accept Jesus into your heart blah blah blah.

Christianity is just one of the religions I admire. I recently went into hospital for some tests. In the area marked Religion on one of the forms, I wrote "All"  ;D I don't suppose anybody blinked an eyelid.

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 10:48pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 1:56pm: People refer to these two words quite a lot .. yet I wonder if they're truly understood. What do you think this phrase means? why didn't Jesus just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ?? Nothing about the story makes any sense unless you are willing to conclude that God is imaginary and a person by the name of Jesus never actually existed !!

You still don't get it. The "immaculate conception" was not about the conception of Jesus. It was about the conception of Mary some 13 or 14 years previously.

Aussie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 10:00pm:

Quote: However this topic isn't about that .. it's about the concept of Immaculate Conception. It appears not many know what this concept actually means. If however you wish to discuss who the father of Jesus is .. then by all means you may start another topic. How can you logically suggest that Mary's "immaculate conception leading to the birth of Jesus" is somehow not connected to who is the father of Jesus? Biology 101. Lisa, either the Angels came down and reassured Joseph that all was well, and that "God" did the job, or something else far more likely happened. Take yer pick.

Again .. you obviously DON'T understand what IMMACULATE CONCEPTION ACTUALLY MEANS.

Here's a tip .. read my posts in THIS topic.

It explains what the terms means and also explains why I locked the other topic regarding this subject.

It would be nice if we could get past basic definitions Aussie.

And as I stated earlier .. if you wish to discuss who the father of Jesus is .. by all means start a separate topic on that.

Have a lovely day..

muso wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 8:05am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 10:48pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 1:56pm: People refer to these two words quite a lot .. yet I wonder if they're truly understood. What do you think this phrase means? why didn't Jesus just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ?? Nothing about the story makes any sense unless you are willing to conclude that God is imaginary and a person by the name of Jesus never actually existed !! You still don't get it. The "immaculate conception" was not about the conception of Jesus. It was about the conception of Mary some 13 or 14 years previously.

Many thanks Muso .. I don't know how many times I've now explained what Immaculate Conception is  .. I so wish people would READ before posting irrelevant and off-topic material in here.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 15^th, 2011 at 3:37pm:

.. but you're right Lisa - many people don't understand the term "immaculate conception", especially non-Catholics. - Muso (Reply No 4 @ 3.27pm) A very good afternoon to our Global Moderator Muso :) The concept of Immaculate Conception is widely misunderstood. And it may very well have something to do with the fact that it is a Roman Catholic construct. The term Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Mary's conception of Jesus but with the conception of Mary herself in her mother's womb ie she was and still is .. considered to be free of Original Sin. It's most important we understand what this phrase means otherwise we're going to confuse ourselves (and others).

Once again ..  for those who STILL don't understand what the term IMMACULATE CONCEPTION means.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:37pm: .. but you're right Lisa - many people don't understand the term "immaculate conception", especially non-Catholics. - Muso (Reply No 4 @ 3.27pm) A very good afternoon to our Global Moderator Muso :) The concept of Immaculate Conception is widely misunderstood. And it may very well have something to do with the fact that it is a Roman Catholic construct. The term Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Mary's conception of Jesus but with the conception of Mary herself in her mother's womb ie she was and still is .. considered to be free of Original Sin. It's most important we understand what this phrase means otherwise we're going to confuse ourselves (and others). Once again ..  for those who STILL don't understand what the term IMMACULATE CONCEPTION means.

OK you've made your point but it still doesn't explain why jesus didn't just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ??

the whole story is silly and inconsistent.

Well Last Nail .. I sincerely hope I've FINALLY made my point.

(I only had to lock a topic, start another one with a similar title, then repeat myself over and over again; as if that wasn't enough .. I even had the Global Moderator of Oz Politic in here also trying to make the same point .. just so people could understand what the term Immaculate Conception actually means.)

.. it still doesn't explain why jesus didn't just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ??

- Last Nail

Immaculate Conception isn't about how Jesus came to this earth. That is why this Roman Catholic term doesn't explain anything about it .. it's not meant to.

If you're refering to why Jesus was born of a virgin .. then that's a separate matter altogether.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 10:51am:

.. it still doesn't explain why jesus didn't just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ?? - Last Nail Immaculate Conception isn't about how Jesus came to this earth. That is why this Roman Catholic term doesn't explain anything about it .. it's not meant to. If you're refering to why Jesus was born of a virgin .. then that's a separate matter altogether.

do you honestly believe all of that rubbish ??

Quote:

do you honestly believe all of that rubbish ??

Lisa seems a rational person, and I don't believe that she really does believe it. But tries to convince herself that she does through the fear of something crashing down around her.

Grasp the prickles firmly enough, and they will not penetrate to any great degree, I believe.

Is rational person an oxymoron?

A quick reminder to all ..

If you wish to discuss illegal immigration issues or indulge in any form of racism .. the Spirituality forum and in particular ..  this topic isn't the place to do so.

Lisa

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 10:05am:

muso wrote on Feb 16th, 2011 at 8:05am: Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 10:48pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 1:56pm: People refer to these two words quite a lot .. yet I wonder if they're truly understood. What do you think this phrase means? why didn't Jesus just magically appear instead of being conceived by a mere mortal ?? Nothing about the story makes any sense unless you are willing to conclude that God is imaginary and a person by the name of Jesus never actually existed !! You still don't get it. The "immaculate conception" was not about the conception of Jesus. It was about the conception of Mary some 13 or 14 years previously. Many thanks Muso .. I don't know how many times I've now explained what Immaculate Conception is  .. I so wish people would READ before posting irrelevant and off-topic material in here.

The immaculate misconception.

The immaculate misconception.

- Helian

LOL! You're not wrong (if this topic is anything to go by) :)