Sybella (not her real name) is 18 and on the run in Germany. She left home which in her culture means “she has lost honour”. Her family can restore their honour by killing her.
When she was 13 her family introduced her to a man for marriage. She refused time & time again.
When she was 17 her father said she was almost too old for marriage and said she must marry her cousin in Turkey whom she had never met. He beat her severely in front of all the family and then took her into another room and beat her some more, breaking her arm.
She ran away for the first time but returned after a while hoping things would improve.
Her father went to Turkey and started organising the wedding. When Sybella found out she left home again, this time asking the govt Office for Youth Welfare to help her.
She is living in hiding but is scared. She says her family are looking for her everywhere, continually harassing her friends who don’t know where she is. Turkish parents are marrying off a lot of young girls of 12 & 13. They arrange so-called Imam weddings, not legally registered of course, but to the muslim families this means
the marriage exists. In a survey of Turkish adults for the Ministry for Family Affairs carried out in 2004, 10% said they were living in a forced marriage. Young Turkish  people interviewed in Berlin said it was quite common among their friends. They didn’t like it but they had to put up with it otherwise something might happen.
Sybella has lost everything - family, friends, job - and lives with the constant worry that she will be found.

Many people here and elsewhere argue that Muslim migrants will eventually "fit in" as previous migrant groups have done. A lot of these people have their hearts in the right place but their brains are disengaged and their powers of perception are non-functional in respect to this issue. Turkish migrants have been in Germany for 60 years.
The English Defence League, which has 82,000 official members and many times that number in community support, has observed that whereas most migrant groups - Hindu, Sikh or other - have integrated well into Britain and respect its laws, many of the Islamic belief never do.
A survey of Muslim university students in Britain found that 37% wanted sharia law in force. There are 100 sharia law courts operating now in Britain outside the legal system.
The European Human Rights Commission has stated that sharia law is inconsistent with Western democratic principles.
Muslim pressure in some local areas has succeeded with such things as  banning the emblem of St George in certain schools  and  in changing the name of Christmas to Winter Festival.
Muslim youths have attacked British troops returning from service overseas.
The whole nature of society is under attack not just in Britain but in much of Europe.  By 2045 to 2050 it is estimated Muslims will outnumber the rest in Britain on present birthrates - the
same is true all over Europe where Muslim birthrates are 10 times that of other citizens, with men having multiple wives.

We don't have anywhere like the same problems here . . . .YET.
But why should we invite inevitable trouble when it can be easily prevented by stopping legal and illegal Muslim immigration now.

Quote:

There are 100 sharia law courts operating now in Britain outside the legal system.

But can not OVERIDE the British legal system
They cover civil matters ONLY
And both parties must agree to use them

Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.


Who wrote the article ?

This is much like the Christian propaganda that does the rounds, no proof. You need to investigate who wrote the story and get some first hand proof that this event actually took place. We never get to see any live interviews from family or friends and they always happen in the far reaches of some little known place.

It happens but most of the stories are made up. People get murdered every day all over the world.

Australia has one of the highest rates of domestic violence in the western world so I wouldn't be taking the high moral road........glass houses!

I'll tell you one thing.........if I was living between a catholic priest and a Muslim man and I had an emergency, I sure as hell wouldn't be leaving my kid with the priest.


More Muslim bashing.....boring ho hum

Who wrote the article? It was an interview with the girl aired and translated by Deutsche Welle, a very reputable org.

It's OK buzz, I know you're heart is in the right place.

buzzanddidj wrote on Mar 24^th, 2011 at 3:31pm:

Quote: There are 100 sharia law courts operating now in Britain outside the legal system. [size=14]But can not OVERIDE the British legal system They cover civil matters ONLY And both parties must agree to use them Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.

Ohh right the juice do it so that makes it ok for muslims to sneak sharia courts in through an arbitration loophole.

The women dont understand their rights under UK law so the men push them to accept the rulings from sharia law.

One law for all campaign to get rid of these sharia courts that deprive muslim women of their rights.

Sign the petition to get rid of these barbaric religious laws from the dark ages in the link
www.onelawforall.org.uk/about

http://www.ozpolitic.com/sustainability-party/immigration.html

Just like Sybella I feel trapped by my religion. Once I became a New Age Muslim my wife told me I had to wear the burqa and I was not allowed to leave the kitchen sink unless there was a good excuse. The only danger we pose to the lifestyle of Australians is that we aim to smash every totem associated with the West. No more democracy, freedom of religion, gambling, R-rated movies and video games etc. So there isn't much to worry about with muslim immigration.

It has occurred to me that this thread, if certain persons who purport to believe in free speech don't nobble it, would make a beautiful ongoing vehicle for a kind of Drudge File.

Fasten your seatbelts.

Extremism is a big problem in any religion or culture....however main stream Islam is a peaceful religion and should not be feared.....Those who support discrimination against Muslims are showing there extreme beliefs and support of continuing distrust and blind fear against moderate people....We need to accept we are all different and do not need to be the same or act the same.....What is wrong with society in Australia anyway, it works just fine???

:-?

You appear to be an intelligent person phil yet you are blind to what is a bleedingly obvious danger, the proof of which can be found in many European countries.
There is an Islamic mindset that does not assimilate, integrate, fit in or, most worrying of all, does NOT change over time.
The fact that Turkish guestworkers/migrants have been in Germany for around 60 years and don't change should be a warning big enough for anyone to see.

It's against Islam to force someone into marriage. What happened with Sybella (if it did indeed occur - I can't find evidence) is a cultural issue, not a religious one.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 25^th, 2011 at 10:37am:

It's against Islam to force someone into marriage. What happened with Sybella (if it did indeed occur - I can't find evidence) is a cultural issue, not a religious one.

Are you seriously suggesting that islam, controlling every aspect of life, being not a mere private confession but a whole way of life (as it never tires to proclaim itself), would tolerate cultural practices that are contrary to it?

I mean, where does the reflex shifty apologia end and a modicum of critical thinking start with you, sons and daughters of Mohammed?

salad in wrote on Mar 25^th, 2011 at 9:37am:

Just like Sybella I feel trapped by my religion. Once I became a New Age Muslim my wife told me I had to wear the burqa and I was not allowed to leave the kitchen sink unless there was a good excuse. The only danger we pose to the lifestyle of Australians is that we aim to smash every totem associated with the West. No more democracy, freedom of religion, gambling, R-rated movies and video games etc. So there isn't much to worry about with muslim immigration.

Germany Calls Time On Forced Marriages
Keywords:
Underlining a new mood spreading across Europe, the German Parliament passed a law on March 3rd to make forced marriage a criminal offence carrying a five year prison sentence. The law also granted to non-German citizens who have been taken abroad against their will a legal right to return to Germany.

This is an example of a European government doing its job — creating and policing the non-negotiable framework within which other actors can get on with religious reform and cultural innovation and establish what the academic Bassam Tibi calls a “civil Islam” capable of accommodating cultural modernity.

Experts and support groups estimate that over one thousand women in Germany become victims of forced marriages each year. Although the facts have been long known due to the work of Serap Cileli (see film here), Halis Cicek, Sabatina James, Necla Kelek, and others, until now neither the government nor civil society had done much about it.

Forced marriage is only one expression of the suffocating and sometimes deadly male power exercised over many Muslim women in Germany.

A 2004 German study commissioned by the Ministry of Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women, and Youth found that 49 percent of Turkish women had experienced physical or sexual violence in their marriage, while a quarter of those married to Turkish husbands met their grooms on their wedding day. Half of these women felt pressured to marry partners selected by relatives and 17 percent felt forced into the partnership.

Some Muslim girls have been known to disappear from their schools to travel to Turkey and other Muslim countries to marry, having been told they were going on a holiday. A “bride-price” is negotiated and payment secures the right of the husband’s family to untrammelled patriarchal power over the girl and any children she bears.

Young Turkish women brought to Germany are sometimes kept as virtual house-slaves. “[They] don’t even know where they have been living for years,” says Katrin Fliess, a leader of a Munich-based women’s support group. Necla Kelek, author of a book about the forced marriages of Turkish migrants in Germany (Die fremde Braut or “The Foreign Bride”) has claimed that thousands of Anatolian women bought to Germany to marry German-Turkish men are modern-day slaves:

The typical import bride (import-gelin) is usually just 18 years old, comes from a village and has in four or six years barely learned how to read and write. She gets married off by her parents to a man she doesn’t know, but who is probably related, of Turkish origin, and living in Germany. After marriage she comes to a German city into a Turkish family. She lives exclusively in that family, does not have contact with people outside the Turkish community. Soon she will give birth to one, two, three children … She will live in Germany, but she will never arrive there.

A range of physical and psychological traumas have been associated with forced marriages.

The Turkish-German therapist Halis Cicek  wrote Traditionelle Vergewaltigung (“Traditional Rape”) about his experiences counseling the victims. His description of one patient shows why the new law was needed. “Her life is hell. Her husband beats her and rapes her. She wanted a divorce, but then her own father and her brother said they would come up here from Turkey and kill her. She is now about 30 years old. Her condition became so bad that she had to be hospitalised. Recently, she applied for a disability pension.”

Many Muslim girls lead double-lives because they fear the wrath of their families. A suicide prevention program had to be set up by the Berlin hospital Charité for young girls of Turkish origins with the message “end your silence, not your life.”

And some live life on the run under the protection of shelters and women’s organisations, such as the Peri Association for Human Rights and Integration.

Women who rebel risk much. When Hatun Sürücü , divorced the Turkish cousin she had been forced to marry at 16, enrolled in college, and began dating, she was killed by her three brothers. Hatin’s murder sparked a national debate only when a school teacher reported a group of 14-year-old Turkish boys mocking Hatin in class: “She only had herself to blame. She deserved what she got. The whore lived like a German.”

In 2005, Der Speigel reported that “The Turkish women’s organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996.” Among the cases, a Darmstadt girl killed by her two brothers who beat her to death with a hockey stick in April 2004 because she had slept with her boyfriend.

Why has Germany been so slow to protect these German girls?
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/new/blogs/johnson/date/2011/3/22

First, a misguided view of multiculturalism has led some democrats to think they must tolerate misogyny and oppression as “culture.” Getting a debate going was near-impossible when “every denunciation of this abuse is immediately branded as racism,” as the German feminist publisher Alice Schwarzer put it in a 2004 interview. She went on,

The left, especially, has appealed up till now for a “tolerance of differences.” But really, people who make that argument think that Turkish women are a different type of people in another culture whose rules must be accepted — even if they’re misogynist and misanthropic.

In 2007, a German judge, Christa Datz-Winter, ruled that a 26-year-old Moroccan-born German victim of violent domestic abuse should have “expected” her treatment as her Muslim husband had  the “right to use corporal punishment.” Sura 4, verse 34 of the Koran, she wrote in her judgement, contains “both the husband’s right to use corporal punishment against a disobedient wife and the establishment of the husband’s superiority over the wife.” Such is the rot of the European multiculturalist mind. (The good news is that the judge was condemned by right and left alike. Lale Akgün MP, the Social Democratic Party’s spokesperson on Islamic issues, said the ruling was “worse than some backyard decision by an Islamist imam.”)

Second, there is history’s curse. “People were afraid they would be called Nazis if they dared to bring up issues of human rights in the Turkish community,” says the Turkish writer and filmmaker Serap Cileli, who was herself forced into an arranged marriage at 15.

After a host of “engagement” programs, often with Islamist loud-mouths, Western governments are beginning to see that the two best things they can do to encourage integration are to ensure Muslim women can access education and employment (more good news: the participation of Muslim girls in the “Gymnasium,” the level of the German school system that prepares students for university study, now outstrips Muslim boys), and to design and enforce laws that enshrine human liberty and human dignity as absolutely non-negotiable. Germany, it seems, is waking up to the message of the Syrian-born German political scientist Bassam Tibi: “No democracy can allow the inferiorization of women.”

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/new/blogs/johnson/date/2011/3/22

Annie Anthrax (poisonous by name & by nature it seems), go to Deutsche Welle Media Centre, look up Newslink & listen to the interview.
Religion & Culture are the same thing in Islam.

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 25^th, 2011 at 10:18am:

Extremism is a big problem in any religion or culture....however main stream Islam is a peaceful religion and should not be feared.....Those who support discrimination against Muslims are showing there extreme beliefs and support of continuing distrust and blind fear against moderate people....We need to accept we are all different and do not need to be the same or act the same.....What is wrong with society in Australia anyway, it works just fine??? :-?

Phil what do you think of as 'moderate' Muslims? Do you see them as the minority of Muslims?

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2011 at 3:36pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 25th, 2011 at 10:18am: Extremism is a big problem in any religion or culture....however main stream Islam is a peaceful religion and should not be feared.....Those who support discrimination against Muslims are showing there extreme beliefs and support of continuing distrust and blind fear against moderate people....We need to accept we are all different and do not need to be the same or act the same.....What is wrong with society in Australia anyway, it works just fine??? :-? Phil what do you think of as 'moderate' Muslims? Do you see them as the minority of Muslims?

I see the majority of Muslims as moderate.....However I agree there is an element within Islam that drives extremism and should be exposed and opposed....Islam needs to make it acceptable and defend itself against the extreme elements that are driving this belief that Islam promotes and accepts these extreme views!!!

These extreme views must be contested by Muslim leaders so that a culture of tolerance and trust will be promoted within these communities.....We cannot live apart so we must learn to live together...It is moderate Islamic leaders who oppose extremism that need to drive this debate not allow themselves to be shouted down by the vocal minority driving division!!!


:)

What I was getting at is, what do you think are the extreme views and what are the moderate views?

Is fundamental opposition to democracy an extreme view held by a minority of muslims, or a moderate view held by the majority?

Is fundamental opposition to personal freedom an extreme view held by a minority of muslims, or a moderate view held by the majority?

Is fundamental opposition to freedom of religion an extreme view held by a minority of muslims, or a moderate view held by the majority?

Is fundamental opposition to any rights for gay people an extreme view held by a minority of muslims, or a moderate view held by the majority?

Is fundamental opposition to equality of women before the law an extreme view held by a minority of muslims, or a moderate view held by the majority?

Is fundamental opposition to your children falling in love with and choosing for themselves who to marry an extreme view held by a minority of muslims, or a moderate view held by the majority?

Surely these are the questions we need to think about in choosing who to let into the country, rather than simply asking whether you intend to blow up Canberra and hoping that is sufficient to combat 'extremism'.

I find it heartening that a glance over what's been said doesn't show anybody to be on another page. It's been said that 'Muslims are mainly moderate'. Well what does that mean? Moderate is a relative term. Most muslims don't fly planes into buildings, therefore ... I'm just saying that what you say, needs saying carefully.

This is a debate that needs to balance. I bloody well hate racism, I grew up in the most cosmopolitan part of working class London. There was a gang culture. but race didn't come into it. Racism and fascism are blood brothers; so I'm antifascist as well.

Hitchens coined the term 'Islamofascist'. Was he wrong? A bit, but only a bit IMO, a better term is theofascist, because there are people in Judaism and Christianity that are just as out there as the Taliban. As an Atheist I tend to regard most practising religious people as extremist. It wasn't so long ago that the religious burnt old ladies and their pets. Even less time ago I'd be imprisoned for blasphemy. After all the work that's been done to create tolerant secular societies like ours, should we be letting in committed religious anythings that stand as a danger to reversing our social evolution?

If it was up to me, and I'm not quite convinced I'm right, I wouldn't allow the Burkha. I don't care how many idiot women put their hand up to say otherwise, I know what the burkha is, it's a symbol of an outrageous and oppressive patriarchy. On the other hand, we give visas to mormons, that they may knock on our doors as missionaries and convert people into believing the most unrealistic codswallop ever concocted. You might just as well let Nigerian email scammers go on a door knock.

We have to let Islam in, anything else is damaging to Australia's international reputation. But we have to act against mullahs who do hate speech from the pulpit. By that I mean send them back and have the legal provisions in place to do that without fuss.

Anybody who wants to enter Australia should be allowed to do so. They shouldn't be imprisoned for being refugees. They should get provisional citizenship for 5 years revoked the instant it's shown that they brought too much baggage. People are a resource Australia is short of.

Go back to London!!

beware wrote on Mar 25^th, 2011 at 7:18pm:

Go back to London!!

;D I was born there Beware, I am seeped in its knowledges. You should go there yourself, it will teach you a thing or two.

I have already been there and I have no wish to bring any of its cultures to Australia............

We already have our own culture and we already have our own form of christianity.... be it ever so humble. I love the wide open spces of this great land and I am sick of the 'rest of the world' being forced down our necks!!

I must admit that I pretty much hate people that follow Islam, and hate them coming into this country, I reckon they are cultural primitives, barbaric tossers. Islam is the most pathetic bogan religion.

beware wrote on Mar 25^th, 2011 at 8:55pm:

I have already been there and I have no wish to bring any of its cultures to Australia............

What? There was nothing at all you found worthy? Can anybody be so narrow minded?



Quote:

We already have our own culture and we already have our own form of christianity.... be it ever so humble. I love the wide open spces of this great land and I am sick of the 'rest of the world' being forced down our necks

Come off it Beware, you know as well as I do that there's no such thing as  "Australian culture" or a rigid culture anywhere else in the modern world. there are people you relate to and people you don't. Australia has several forms of Christianity, and actually Islam and Judaism are historically just as much a part of Australia. Australia would have developed in fundamentally different ways without the Afghan Traders.

Places like Saudi Arabia may be said to have a 'rigid culture'. A culture where they ban 'infidels' from an entire city (Mecca). You wouldn't wish that kind of rigidity on Australia would you? You wouldn't wish to ban Indian, Chinese or Russian restaurants, only dinky di BBQ"s allowed, NO VEGIBURGERS!?  :)

I think it is very telling that people who knock 'Australian culture' can only ever cite restaurants as forms of cultural enrichment this country has had from non-European sources.

The very simple and indisputable fact is that this is a country made by Enlightenment Europeans and is still inhabited by them. That is what the Chinese and the Irish and Germans and English and Indians and all the rest are coming for (the ones that are not coming just for the money, that is). It is a country that is at home in the western enlightenmnt cultural tradition. It also dreams in the English language, which is a very important part of that western cultural tradition.

Australia may not have the artefacts but it has that western enlightenment tradition in its bones, much more than perhaps even Europeans,  many of whom are suffocated by the weight of all their dreadful history before and after the Enlightenment.
 
An awful lot of Europeans will trot out the 'how ridiculous to say Australian culture' and gesticulate towards European art and history and architecture, saying, 'look how much more culture we have'. However, the vast majority of Europeans have minimal grasp of their own cultural history and go to work in the shadows of those magnificent medieval cathedrals without a thought for them, dreaming instead of 'California' or 'Australia'.

AUstralia is at home in the country of the imagination that is the western cultural tradition. That's what matters. Both to its natives and its immigrants.

Mohamed Ali and Cat Stevens follow the Islamic faith

Goerge Bush and Timothy Mcveigh followed the Judaic scriptures

Now who would you rather have in this country?

More importantly is there an exchange scheme whereby we could off load Pauline Hanson and Barnaby  Joyce

Foolosophy wrote on Mar 25^th, 2011 at 10:47pm:

Mohamed Ali and Cat Stevens follow the Islamic faith Goerge Bush and Timothy Mcveigh followed the Judaic scriptures Now who would you rather have in this country? More importantly is there an exchange scheme whereby we could off load Pauline Hanson and Barnaby  Joyce

I can't believe that there are such unbelievably stupid grown-ups as you. I say this with a lot of feeling.

You seem to me to be always on tap with the most stupefying, idotic, dead-end ideas. A complete drongo.
Marvellous word, that. You are a smacking drongo.

(You will be pleased that saying this has eased the pain somewhat.)

Excellent summing up of the Australian ethos Soren. It's telling that in less than 100 years one of the worlds most stable democracies was created by many who were considered social outcasts. However the philosophy of the enlightenment was embraced and led to universal suffrage, free compulsory education, aged pensions, and other social reforms that the so called cultures of other nations had never dreamed of.

Australia has an older constitution than almost all European, (and Asian, African, Latin American) countries. It is 'young', constitution wise, only if compared to the AMericans and the British (who don't have one).

Quote:

Australia has an older constitution than almost all European, (and Asian, African, Latin American) countries. It is 'young', constitution wise, only if compared to the AMericans and the British (who don't have one).

The day that we have access to our constitution is the day that your comment will become valid.

Grow a brain...puhleaase Soren!!

You are the opitamy of a contradiction in terms...an oxynoron.

We have no access to our constitution you idiot.

Quote:

Excellent summing up of the Australian ethos Soren.

Really? Just smelt like Team spirit to me. Every now and then throughout everybodies history, some tosser and or mentally disturbed person, wants to become the ruler quickly. The best way to achieve this is through whipping up some identity politics. US - versus - the Jews, the blacks, the Asians, it doesn't matter, they can even whip some fervour up against the women. Racism and Nationalism are blood brothers and no good ever came out of either one.

Most decent reasonable people, the vast majority, no matter where in the world they live, want nothing more than to raise a family in peace and security, to feel that their lives have had meaning by contributing to the common good, and to have had enough time for the fun of food, the arts and smacking.

People like Moshe and Munir are my heroes.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2008/s2167985.htm

There is no great overriding Australian ethos. There are just people who agree about what they'd like it to be. If there's a competition to dominate and control there shouldn't be.

There is no such thing as a "moderate muslim".
You should get over it.

If/when push comes to shove, every single "moderate muslim" will side with the extremists...that's just fact.

Either they submit themselves to our (conquering) democracy, and work with us to keep our dictators in line, or we need to fight against them.
And we will need to fight hard...make no mistake.

Any conglomeration of cultures will end in an ultimate sacrifice for the fought out democracy that I will kill and die for.
And I will continue to do so, even though they have usurped our weapons...I have many more weapons than them.

That doesn't change the fact that I will kill and die for my nation in the name of democracy.
I will kill and I will die for what I believe in.
That's the order, no compromise.

But seeing that I'm not forced to live here...I'll catchyu later suckers.
At least my grandfather gave me the wealth to live elsewhere in a more ordinary existence for a simple man with simple needs.
I'll bypass Australia as a failed experiment.i

Quote:

Racism and Nationalism are blood brothers and no good ever came out of either one.

This is about religion and politics, not race.


Quote:

Most decent reasonable people, the vast majority, no matter where in the world they live, want nothing more than to raise a family in peace and security, to feel that their lives have had meaning by contributing to the common good, and to have had enough time for the fun of food, the arts and smacking.

I think you'll find that most people want far more than that. Even a slave can have that.

Grey says we have to let Islam in, it will damage our standing if we don't.
What will it damage if we do? If we keep letting them in, isn't it a fact that eventually - not in my lifetime but maybe in my grandson's - they will become the majority as they will in Europe?
I find this a ridiculous argument steeped in appeasement.
As John Howard said, we will decide who comes here!

Amadd wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 1:31am:

Quote: Australia has an older constitution than almost all European, (and Asian, African, Latin American) countries. It is 'young', constitution wise, only if compared to the AMericans and the British (who don't have one). The day that we have access to our constitution is the day that your comment will become valid. Grow a brain...puhleaase Soren!! You are the opitamy of a contradiction in terms...an oxynoron. We have no access to our constitution you idiot.

You mean it is not open access like a fridge full of beer (ie latest fads)?
But this is a very good thing. The constitution is not for the pursuit of party political aims. It can be changed if there is bi-partisan support for the change. No government can change it, no matter how big a majority they get in an election.  This is excellent.

Grey wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 1:36am:

If there's a competition to dominate and control there shouldn't be.

The boys at the Mooney Ponds Flaming Sword of Jihad Community Outreach Centre (Benbrinka Group) haven't yet heard of this lovely Anglican idea. Nor have the ones seeking martyrdom at Holsworthy or those who travel overseas to train and agitate for jihad and the caliphate.
They should be told.

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:39am:

Grey says we have to let Islam in, it will damage our standing if we don't. What will it damage if we do? If we keep letting them in, isn't it a fact that eventually - not in my lifetime but maybe in my grandson's - they will become the majority as they will in Europe? I find this a ridiculous argument steeped in appeasement. As John Howard said, we will decide who comes here!

Why will they become the majority? Do they offer a better way of life? Of course not.

In fact people have feared newcomers since the begining; both in Australia and in Britain before. Hindhu's and Sikh's tried hard to hang on to the oppressive mores of their religion in Britain but lost their children to Liberal Democratic ways. They still have coool weddings though. Waves of immigrants and a culture that adopted the good and threw out the bad is what made Britain Great. Britain is the mongrel mob of Europe and Australia follows that same path as did the USA.

The very best societies humanity has ever produced have been cosmopolitan ones, typified by London, Istanbul, New York, Toronto amd Melbourne. Afghanistan was a moderate muslim society. Not a Burkha in sight up until the Wahabist funded and inspired Taliban. Most Muslims are moderate to the extent you wouldn't know what their religion was unless you asked, when, as with Christians, they'll tick that box out of habit.  

Why will they become the majority?
Didn't you read my opening post about population trends? This is not my fantasy.
And once they are the majority, everybody else will have to bend to their will. Can't you see that?
In Germany, where the Turks have been for 50, 60 years, many of them refuse to integrate.
In your precious England the same. The Islamic Republic of Yorkshire is a nation state waiting to happen in the future.
Those are just the trends. In the meantime we have an ongoing battle with a terrorist threat, with demands for this that & the other to be changed to suit their customs, with trying to police activities which we find abhorrent, such as child marriages in secret, female circumcision and the like. As mentioned previously, the Germans have had to pass legislation outlawing the kind of thing I referred to in my OP. It is one thing to legislate though, it is another thing to prevent.
I have it on good authority that the University of Western Sydney closed its Christian chapel and gave the space to the muslims for a prayer room.
Why should we put up with any of it? I'm sorry Grey, but you are another of the rose-bespectacled brigade, not that you're alone.

Keep them out!

Grey wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 11:39am: Grey says we have to let Islam in, it will damage our standing if we don't. What will it damage if we do? If we keep letting them in, isn't it a fact that eventually - not in my lifetime but maybe in my grandson's - they will become the majority as they will in Europe? I find this a ridiculous argument steeped in appeasement. As John Howard said, we will decide who comes here! Why will they become the majority? Do they offer a better way of life? Of course not.

They were never a majority in Spain, yet they ruled it for a few centuries. Same with the whole region from North Africa to Pakistan - they were not a majority for centuries after they conquered them. They don't have to offer a better way of life because once they reach a critical mass, you have no choice, except to convert or pay a tax or die.

You talk as if Islam was just an Arab version of much of current Western Christianity - timid, accommodating, embarassed.


Islam is more like the Spanish Inquisition, not like Anglicanism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZVjKlBCvhg

bogarde73 wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 1:36pm:

Why will they become the majority? Didn't you read my opening post about population trends? This is not my fantasy. And once they are the majority, everybody else will have to bend to their will. Can't you see that? In Germany, where the Turks have been for 50, 60 years, many of them refuse to integrate. In your precious England the same. The Islamic Republic of Yorkshire is a nation state waiting to happen in the future. Those are just the trends. In the meantime we have an ongoing battle with a terrorist threat, with demands for this that & the other to be changed to suit their customs, with trying to police activities which we find abhorrent, such as child marriages in secret, female circumcision and the like. As mentioned previously, the Germans have had to pass legislation outlawing the kind of thing I referred to in my OP. It is one thing to legislate though, it is another thing to prevent. I have it on good authority that the University of Western Sydney closed its Christian chapel and gave the space to the muslims for a prayer room. Why should we put up with any of it? I'm sorry Grey, but you are another of the rose-bespectacled brigade, not that you're alone. Keep them out!

Yep it's a real worry isn't it? It might fascinate you to learn that the Yellow 'other religions' include Buddhists who have a bigger slice of the demographic than Muslims. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AustralianReligiousAffiliation.svg

Grey wrote on Mar 27^th, 2011 at 2:04am:

Yep it's a real worry isn't it? It might fascinate you to learn that the Yellow 'other religions' include Buddhists who have a bigger slice of the demographic than Muslims. ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AustralianReligiousAffiliation.svg

We'll worry about them when they start blowing up buses to bring about lamaism or a Burmese style dictatorship.

Quote:

We'll worry about them when they start blowing up buses to bring about lamaism or a Burmese style dictatorship.

I suspect that the rising Buddhist slice of the demographic has little to do with immigration actually. But the point of this discussion, 'The case against Islamic immigration' I mean to say, what the hell does that mean?

Is it seriously proposed that anybody can come to Australia or at least apply to become Australian, except fro Muslims? Is that seriously being put as a tenable argument? If not what is?

.

The world seems perfectly cool with the Saudis not allowing Christian or Jewish immigration - so I don't see why the idea can't at least be raised.
It is raised across Europe, in some of the most tolerant countries - we wouln't want to b seen uncultured and backward by European standards, would we?

...what colour is GOD's skin?

Grey wrote on Mar 29^th, 2011 at 4:52pm:

Quote: We'll worry about them when they start blowing up buses to bring about lamaism or a Burmese style dictatorship. I suspect that the rising Buddhist slice of the demographic has little to do with immigration actually. But the point of this discussion, 'The case against Islamic immigration' I mean to say, what the hell does that mean? Is it seriously proposed that anybody can come to Australia or at least apply to become Australian, except fro Muslims? Is that seriously being put as a tenable argument? If not what is?

I propose we bar entry to anyone who opposes democracy and personal freedom, regardless of their reason for doing so.

Like hell anyone's going to fess this straight up FD?

I think the immigration process is a bit more involved. They actually check you out and ask difficult questions.

It would also put pressure on the preachers who speak against democracy and freedom - like the ones credited with grooming the London bombers and our failed Melbourne ones.

[edit]The world seems perfectly cool with the Saudis not allowing Christian or Jewish immigration - so I don't see why the idea can't at least be raised.[/edit]

Does it? I know that the US elite are so indebted to the Saud's that they gave them a good snog on the ranch straight after 9/11 and refuse to criticise them for sending in an army to help the equally primitive Bahrain regime; but if you think the rest of us see the Saud's as cool you're wildly delusional.


Quote:

It is raised across Europe, in some of the most tolerant countries - we wouln't want to b seen uncultured and backward by European standards, would we?

Any evidence to back up this wild assertion?

If a Saudi woman, fed up with riding in the boot wearing a tent, decided that life as an Australian sounded infinitely better than living under the Wahbist pricks, why would you want to keep her out?

Quote:

freediver - I propose we bar entry to anyone who opposes democracy and personal freedom, regardless of their reason for doing so.

Now you're talking. It makes no sense to actually psychologically damage people by locking them up in concentration camps before letting them into the community. It makes no sense to deny them entry because, being a Tamil, they once fought the Sri Lankan government.

It does make sense to deny entry to people who want to act as some kind of fifth column for theofascists or only want to dwell here to continue a fight elsewhere. Anybody should get a fiveyear provisional residence on signing a form stating they are free of baggage. And anybody breaking the undertakings they make on that form should be thrown out on a days notice.

Why does Australia give visas to Mormon missionaries? Can anybody explain that one?

Methinks that we should be seriously considering blocking parasitic multinational corporations for similar reasons as stated above - since such corporations both subvert democracy and undermine personal freedoms...

Equitist wrote on Mar 29^th, 2011 at 8:58pm:

Methinks that we should be seriously considering blocking parasitic multinational corporations for similar reasons as stated above - since such corporations both subvert democracy and undermine personal freedoms...

Now you understrand why the USA rammed its so called FREE TRADE AGREEMENT down our throats.

A Howard legacy that had bent over every Australian for a daily US style de-rimming

I'm afraid under this FREE TRADE AGREEMENT, which is designed to protect US speculators, there is nothing the Australian government can do to stop any of these US muilti national corporate mafiasos from totally facking this country up

remember OUR beloved mining sector is almost 60% US owned

i agree with you there FD.
in fact, I believe it is against our constitution, such as it is.


freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2011 at 7:44pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 4:52pm: Quote: We'll worry about them when they start blowing up buses to bring about lamaism or a Burmese style dictatorship. I suspect that the rising Buddhist slice of the demographic has little to do with immigration actually. But the point of this discussion, 'The case against Islamic immigration' I mean to say, what the hell does that mean? Is it seriously proposed that anybody can come to Australia or at least apply to become Australian, except fro Muslims? Is that seriously being put as a tenable argument? If not what is? I propose we bar entry to anyone who opposes democracy and personal freedom, regardless of their reason for doing so.

What is against our constitution?

Grey wrote on Mar 29^th, 2011 at 8:42pm:

Quote: It is raised across Europe, in some of the most tolerant countries - we wouln't want to b seen uncultured and backward by European standards, would we? Any evidence to back up this wild assertion?

The Dutch and Swedish election results have passed you by, evidently. Le Pen fille is also threatening Sarko in Frogland. The news didn't make the Anti-Fascist Echo?

people who do not support the Australian flag essentially.
people who want to subvert aussie from within.

people youo don't want in aussie, basically



freediver wrote on Mar 29^th, 2011 at 9:37pm:

What is against our constitution?

Quote:

The news didn't make the Anti-Fascist Echo?

Oh the tide comes in and goes out, never manages to breech the dyke though. In Sweden the loony right were the only party promising to preserve the Welfare state. I guess they have to get something right occassionally.

Grey wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 12:27am:

Quote: The news didn't make the Anti-Fascist Echo? Oh the tide comes in and goes out, never manages to breech the dyke though.

I know just what you mean, "Fog over Channel isolates Continent."
;)

Equitist wrote on Mar 29^th, 2011 at 8:58pm:

Methinks that we should be seriously considering blocking parasitic multinational corporations for similar reasons as stated above - since such corporations both subvert democracy and undermine personal freedoms...

Utah Mining used to crow "We employ over two thousand Australians" - and take billions out of the country... I am heartily in favour of the mining tax.

I remember when I lived in Melbourne and Packer Snr had to race back from Las Vegas, because some Sultans arrived at his newly opened Crown Casino and nearly 'bankrupted' it with gigantic betting.
Packer Snr was seen to be on his knees before his own Staff 'Begging' the Sultans not to send him broke. ;D

When the World comes to town - you really do get to see your own country in true light ;)

You have to admit the vast majority of Muslims in Oz are moderate. They got rid of Sheik al Hilaly very quickly for just having a cruel sense of humour.

I have no more objections against Islamic immigration into Australia, than I do against "believers" of other religions.

Whilst I am personally agnostic, I understand that other people have a right to their own beliefs.

So, on the assumption that people, of any belief structure (including religious) do not attempt to force their beliefs onto other people, either mentally or physically, then I am happy to welcome immigrants to Australia!

That said, there will most likely be a "fine line balancing act" on immigration levels, from all sources, over the next 20-40 years, due to a growing inability of Australia to provide the resources needed, such as Food, Water & Energy (Oil in particular), to sustain our total population.        

This will need to be blanced against a Population growth that is now slowing, before finally going into decline, over the next 20-40 years and the relevant affects that all of this will have on Australia's Economic position.

Quote:

So, on the assumption that people, of any belief structure (including religious) do not attempt to force their beliefs onto other people, either mentally or physically, then I am happy to welcome immigrants to Australia!

How do you feel about Mormon Missionaries getting visas approved?

Grey wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Quote: So, on the assumption that people, of any belief structure (including religious) do not attempt to force their beliefs onto other people, either mentally or physically, then I am happy to welcome immigrants to Australia! How do you feel about Mormon Missionaries getting visas approved?

Yeah, I know, there are some many of those and they are so violent and militant. They are even prepared to blow up buses and bars and embassies if you draw a cartoon of Joseph Smith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SReDcW0fokE

Soren wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 12:11pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:00pm: Quote: So, on the assumption that people, of any belief structure (including religious) do not attempt to force their beliefs onto other people, either mentally or physically, then I am happy to welcome immigrants to Australia! How do you feel about Mormon Missionaries getting visas approved? Yeah, I know, there are some many of those and they are so violent and militant. They are even prepared to blow up buses and bars and embassies if you draw a cartoon of Joseph Smith.

Mormonism is a 'religion' started by a convicted felon and con man, who claimed angels gave him the rules written on gold tablets and took them back after he's read them. They encouraged a patriarchal, paedophilic, polygamy and their controlling methods have harmed untold families. They take money out of the Australian economy to enrich their elders and build their nauseously gaudy temples. At least Muslims don't knock on doors seeking to profit by wrecking families. And no I don't have any personal experience other than having to tell them to piss off. I don't like any religious bullshit and find Wahabists and Mormons to be the worst.

Soren wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 12:26pm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SReDcW0fokE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM45iYOeLmQ&NR=1


Compare and contrast.

Quote:

Compare and contrast

2 X idiot = 2 idiots

Soren wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 12:33pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:26pm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SReDcW0fokE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM45iYOeLmQ&NR=1 Compare and contrast.

I see two whiny little girly-men. Both pretend to speak from a position of authority, neither do.

The second might be calling a horse race, though I'm not 100% sure?

Jakaye_09

You must understand the nuerotic affliction that pervades Soren's cranial cavity which is currently void of matter and energy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq4el7gyPas

Grey wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Quote: So, on the assumption that people, of any belief structure (including religious) do not attempt to force their beliefs onto other people, either mentally or physically, then I am happy to welcome immigrants to Australia! How do you feel about Mormon Missionaries getting visas approved?

No different!

I keep a special hatchet for Jehovah's Witnesses myself. Once they stood at the end of the driveway and sent a ten year old kid to give me the speil. What a great way to spend your weekends, as a kid. I told him to tell mum and dad that any religion where your parents didn't think his birthday was a cause for celebration was not one I cared to know any more about.

Mormans? Just keep plenty of porn and beer cans in your lounge. Satanic music optional. I had great success once with "Jezebel Spirit" from My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts by Byrne and Eno.

Another friend of mine had a bullet-riddled, blood and hair spattered statue of the virgin may in his entry hall, just as a conversation starter.

Quote:

people who do not support the Australian flag essentially

What's it got to do with the flag?


Quote:

You have to admit the vast majority of Muslims in Oz are moderate.

Why do we have to admit that? And what do you mean by a moderate muslim? The same question was asked previously but no-one has come up with an answer.

As one Mormon said of his Religion: "We know our Religion is a peice of crap. But it was Made in America and thats something worth believing in."
I kinda admire these words. Sure a Holden may not be the best car out there, but its 'our car' and thats something worth driving.
Take into consideration that Religion in North America tends to take on a 'team spirit' (which makes you wonder about Australia's Religious future in contrast) for the 'mass' - of course it ain't gonna be 'top of the pyramid' stuff.

...I think Mormonism is the most prolific Religion in the States and I think it will adapt, change and eventually become 'the' North American Religion of choice.

...I'm sure we might have a Religion here in the deep, dark and cold abyss of Oceania, eventually  ;) as well. Something unique and distinctive from the 'old world' religions that are more reflective of Asia, Africa & Europe via the Middle-East. Something even more 'individual' than what Judaism tries to pull over Mohommedism and to a lesser extent, Christianity.

Funny how 'brown people' tend to be the less daggiest when it comes to Oz fashion, although the Moslem, Christian and Jew versions still wear the 'old clothes'.
I guess thats what its all about: shedding one's skin from one part of the world to another. ;)

...you mean the case against Western Imperialist fascist racism

LifeMasque wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 10:51am:

You have to admit the vast majority of Muslims in Oz are moderate.

The term.....

'Moderate moslem' is an oxymoron.

It is a falsehood, a deception, a lie, which being perpetrated upon all non-moslem host communities,
by every moslem guest community.




Moslems are devoid of all respect for truth.

Because truth, reveals what every moslem is;

THE TRUTH
A moslem, is a person who chooses to embrace a philosophy [ISLAM] which tells moslems that it is 'lawful' for moslems, to kill those who do not believe, as they believe.





There is a popular supposition among many non-moslems in the West, that only 'ISLAMISTS' have violent tendencies.

Wrong!

THE TRUTH
All good moslems, are ISLAMISTS.

THE TRUTH IS;
There can never be a 'moderate moslem'.

BECAUSE, there is no moderate ISLAM.




Read the Koran and Hadith, you truth averse idiots.


BIGOTRY
"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith." [inciting and motivating moslem violence against non-moslems]
Koran 2.98

BIGOTRY
"....those who reject Allah have no protector." [inciting and motivating moslem violence against non-moslems]
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

BIGOTRY
"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith." [inciting moslem hatred of non-moslems]
Koran 2.089

BIGOTRY
"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."  [inciting and motivating moslem violence against non-moslems]
Koran 2.216

BIGOTRY
"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:"  [inciting moslem hatred of non-moslems]
Koran 3.028

BIGOTRY
"Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."  [inciting and motivating moslem violence against non-moslems]
Koran 4.101

BIGOTRY
"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"  [inciting moslem hatred of non-moslems]
Koran 4.144

BIGOTRY
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "  [inciting and motivating moslem violence against non-moslems]
Koran 9.29

BIGOTRY
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed."   [inciting and motivating moslem violence against non-moslems]
Koran 9.73
Koran 66.9

BIGOTRY
"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."   [inciting and motivating moslem violence against non-moslems]
Koran 9.123

BIGOTRY
"Do the Unbelievers think that they can take My servants as protectors besides Me? Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment." [inciting moslem hatred of non-moslems]
Koran 18.102

BIGOTRY
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other......"  [encouraging moslem solidarity, but inciting hatred of non-moslems]
Koran 48.029

BIGOTRY
"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76  [inciting moslem hatred of non-moslems]

BIGOTRY
The Hadith,
"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

BIGOTRY
"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196

etc, etc, etc. 100's more verses which expose moslem intolerance, against those who do not believe as they believe.

LifeMasque wrote on Mar 30^th, 2011 at 10:51am:

You have to admit the vast majority of Muslims in Oz are moderate.

ISLAM THE 'RELIGION', IS A VEIL, BEHIND WHICH POLITICAL ISLAM CONCEALS ITSELF

What all non-moslems should realise about 'good' moslems is that;

When they are living within a 'tolerant', pluralist society, good moslems always, deceitfully, pretend to be liberal [tolerant],
....because they are politically weak.

But in those places where good moslems become politically strong, good moslems always reveal their intolerance, and violence towards those who do not believe, as they believe.

ISLAM is a violent, **deceitful**, death cult.

All good moslems who are residing in non-moslem host nations, have the nature [politically], of 'flags in the wind'.

i.e.
Publicly, good moslems residing in non-moslem host nations, studiously [when in the public eye] try to reflect the political environment in which they 'travel'.
i.e.
Today, a good moslem in Australia, may make the claim that he is 'moderate', and tolerant.

But when it suits their purpose [i.e. when Allah provides the 'opportunity'], or when the political environment changes to favour moslems, those good moslems residing in non-moslem host nations, will 'turn in the wind', and will always revert to being Jihadists [i.e. good moslems].

The truth is, that all good moslems who live within non-moslem jurisdictions, are not being sincere, candid, honest, in representing ISLAM, to their non-moslem hosts.



The Koran, speaking of non-moslems....

"Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand." [i.e. 'those who reject Faith', ISLAM]
Koran 8.20-23

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Koran 98.6


Doesn't sound like respect and tolerance to me!





Many moslems openly, publicly, refer to non-moslems as the 'Kuffar'.

Kuffar is a derogatory term, which equates with the word faeces [poo].


WHAT TRUE, REAL, ISLAM, EXPRESSES TOWARDS NON-MOSLEMS....

Anjem Choudary - a UK moslem community leader.
Here on YOUTUBE, Anjem Choudary explains ISLAM's 'world view', to the dumb Kuffar;

KILLING OF NON-MUSLIMS IS LEGITIMATE
"...when we say innocent people, we mean moslems."
"....[not accepting ISLAM] is a crime against God."
"...If you are a non-moslem, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
"...as a moslem....i must have *hatred* towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
"...[moslems] allegiance is always with the moslems, so i will never condemn a moslem for what he does."
"...Britain has always been Dar al Harb [the Land of War]"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4


AND;

Attack on London 'inevitable'
April 19, 2004
"We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity."
[Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad]
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326119414.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true


N.B.
"...the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity."

What about the Afghan traders who made Australia function in the early days? You know the ones the Ghan is named for ? Weren't they moderate?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 10:59am:

What about the Afghan traders who made Australia function in the early days? You know the ones the Ghan is named for ? Weren't they moderate? http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm

We are all constrained by the law of the land,    ...so long as it is daylight, so long as our conduct is being scrutinised.

And so it is, with all criminal elements in society.

Crimes of opportunity, are still committed by criminals, WHENEVER THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY.

In walking on a busy city street in Australia, are you certain that you have never, unaware, passed by within a meter or so, of a murderer ?

Q.
Do criminals have signs on their forehead, identifying themselves ???

A.
No.



SO, how do we identify criminals ???

We look at their conduct.


Q.
What about moslems ???
How do i know that moslems are untrustworthy ???


A.
Look at how moslems behave [towards non-moslems] within majority moslem jurisdictions.

"If you want to know a man's character, give him power."
Abraham Lincoln


+++

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 10:59am:

What about the Afghan traders who made Australia function in the early days? You know the ones the Ghan is named for ? Weren't they moderate?

Why do Islamic apologists say "most muslims are moderate"?

Do you ever hear these apologists say most jews/hundu/buddhists/christians/etc are moderate ?

As for those afghan camel herders they are responsible for the first terrorist attack in Australia so why do ignorant people like you ignore this fact?

January 1 ,1915
2 broken hill men,both former camel drivers,armed themselves with rifles and a homemade flag bearing Islamic insignia and launched a cowardly surprise attack on the picnic train about 3km outside of broken hill.

The 2 muslim men ,Gool Mohamed a Pashtun tribesman from afghanistan and Mullah ABdullah from Pakistan decided to wage Jihad against Australian infidels after Australia and the ottoman empire officially joined the opposite sides in WW1.
Both men had planned to die and left notes outlining that they had to become martyrs in defending their faith and the caliphate.

2 people were killed and 6 were wounded in this typical cowardly act of Islamic terrorism on a passenger train.

Typical of retards listening to the bullshit as muslims try to rewrite history and do you really believe it was these "afghans" who made australia function as you claimed in your post?

Read more here
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1917&catid=212&Itemid=20

These early afghan camel herders killed people in Jihad and you claim they were moderate.

Muslims are quick to cry discrimination whenever they dont get their own way.

If a muslim discriminates against non muslims they think that is ok.

Islam is rife with double standards they calim they gave women rights so ask them why does a woman need 4 male witnesses to prove she has been raped.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1751/mecca.jpg

I think it's pretty clear who the jihadis are around here  ;D

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 12:01pm:

Islam is rife with double standards they calim they gave women rights so ask them why does a woman need 4 male witnesses to prove she has been raped.

Because women within ISLAM, are liberated from oppression.
/sarc off

Women in ISLAMIC jurisdictions are sooooooooooo liberated from 'oppression', that women who are raped are terrified to report such crimes.

Married women within ISLAMIC jurisdictions who report incidents rape, are invariably charged with adultery [the punishment under Sharia, for adultery is stoning, to death].

Within Sharia jurisdictions, these women are charged with adultery, because they have admitted to sex outside the marriage bed, AND, they are unable to produce the four MALE witness to the rape.

And moslem males refer to these circumstances as, 'women's liberation from oppression'.


Google;
islam liberates women


Google;
islam frees women from oppression

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/book_with_no_limits.htm

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 12:19pm:

I think it's pretty clear who the jihadis are around here  ;D

Yadda 'translates';

PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM SHOULD BE DENIGRATED, CASTIGATED, AND CENSURED,
.....BECAUSE TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM, MAY CAUSE SOCIAL 'DISHARMONY'.

Yadda wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 12:53pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 31st, 2011 at 12:19pm: I think it's pretty clear who the jihadis are around here  ;D Yadda 'translates'; PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM SHOULD BE DENIGRATED, CASTIGATED, AND CENSURED, .....BECAUSE TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM, MAY CAUSE SOCIAL 'DISHARMONY'.

Grey 'translates' - People who criticise mainstream Islam should get the beam out of their own eye.

(and stop being so shouty)

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 1:06pm:

Grey 'translates' - People who criticise mainstream Islam should get the beam out of their own eye.

Good advice.

YOU RAGING HYPOCRITE.




The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia explains, 'MAINSTREAM ISLAM'.....

This is a legal pronouncement by the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh [the ISLAMIC equivalent of 'The Archbishop of Canterbury' in Saudi Arabia], read what he had to say about conducting the Jihad against 'unbelievers'...

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, [how to Jihad, to spread the influence of ISLAM].
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric...explained that war was never Islam's...first choice: "[ISLAM gives unbelievers] three options:
(1) either accept Islam, or
(2) surrender and pay tax, [OR] according to the Grand Mufti, the
(3) third option of violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam.
...[he states,] "Those who read the Koran and the Sunnah can understand the facts."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-1111112254761




"...violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam."

It is so comforting, knowing that moslems are really so 'peacefully' inclined.
/sarc off





"Muhammad...[has] declared all of Islam, anywhere in the world, to be a political and military state against all non-Muslims, regardless of the non-Muslims' political, geographical, or national origins."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/vijay-kumar-the-muslim-mosque-a-state-within-a-state.html

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 12:19pm:

I think it's pretty clear who the jihadis are around here  ;D

The Islamic apologists who have never read the Quran and hadiths stand out in this forum.

These apologists like you use words like "moderate" to describe muslims.
The Quran calls these people hypocrites it does not call them "moderates" if you had bothered to read it you may discover this fact.
http://quran.com/9/73
There is no such thing as a moderate muslim in the Quran they are called hypocrites.

With Islam you cannot pick and choose which bits to follow you have to follow the whole package Quran 2:85 says you end up in the hellfire for picking and choosing which parts to believe in.
http://quran.com/2/85

The Quran mentions boiling water 17 times for the purpose of torture yet not even once does it say boiling water makes it safe to drink.

Numbers 31:17, 40
[Verse 17, Moses says:] "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

[Verse 40:] The persons [women who had not known man by lying with him] were sixteen thousand, of which the Lord's tribute was thirty-two persons.

Exodus
[21:7-8] "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."

[22:18, KJV] "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

[22:20] "He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

God's enthusiastic endorsement of child abuse.
Proverbs 23:13-14

Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his life from Sheol.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father; or the voice of his mother, and, though they chastise him, will not give heed to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, "This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Peaceful ol' Jesus -
Matthew 10:34-35

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household."

The bible teaches respect for women.
Judges 19:22-29

As they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, base fellows, beset the house round about, beating on the door; and they said to the old man, the master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, that we may know him." And the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, "No, my brethren, do not act so wickedly; seeing that this man has come into my house, do not do this vile thing. Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing."

But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine, and put her out to them; and they knew her, and abused her all night until the morning. And as the dawn began to break, they let her go. And as morning appeared, the woman came and fell down at the door of the man's house where her master was, till it was light. And her master rose up in the morning, and when he opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, behold, there was his concubine lying at the door of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up, let us be going." But there was no answer. Then he put her upon the ass; and the man rose up and went away to his home. And when he entered his house, he took a knife, and laying hold of his concubine, he divided her, limb by limb, into twelve pieces, and sent her throughout all the territory of Israel.

EXTERMINATE - EXTERMINATE - WE ARE GOD"S PEOPLE - EXTERMINATE

  You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you.  Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods.  If you do, they will trap you.  Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?'  But don't be afraid of them!  Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt.  Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them.  You saw it all with your own eyes!  And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt.  The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear.  And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you!  "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God.  The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little.  You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you.  But the LORD your God will hand them over to you.  He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed.  He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all.   (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

God is a monkey- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfv-Qn1M58I&feature=related

Yadda wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 1:24pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 31st, 2011 at 1:06pm: Grey 'translates' - People who criticise mainstream Islam should get the beam out of their own eye. Good advice. YOU RAGING HYPOCRITE. The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia explains, 'MAINSTREAM ISLAM'..... This is a legal pronouncement by the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh [the ISLAMIC equivalent of 'The Archbishop of Canterbury' in Saudi Arabia], read what he had to say about conducting the Jihad against 'unbelievers'... Creed of the sword September 23, 2006 ...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, [how to Jihad, to spread the influence of ISLAM]. ...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric...explained that war was never Islam's...first choice: "[ISLAM gives unbelievers] three options: (1) either accept Islam, or (2) surrender and pay tax, [OR] according to the Grand Mufti, the (3) third option of violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam. ...[he states,] "Those who read the Koran and the Sunnah can understand the facts." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-1111112254761 "...violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam." It is so comforting, knowing that moslems are really so 'peacefully' inclined. /sarc off "Muhammad...[has] declared all of Islam, anywhere in the world, to be a political and military state against all non-Muslims, regardless of the non-Muslims' political, geographical, or national origins." http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/vijay-kumar-the-muslim-mosque-a-state-within-a-state.html

Hypocrite? Me? My derision for religion is equal opportunity. But calling 'The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia' a mainstream Muslim is like calling Vladamir Jabotinsky a Palestinian sympathiser and the Pope a Buddhist disciple.  :D

Quote:

What about the Afghan traders who made Australia function in the early days? You know the ones the Ghan is named for ? Weren't they moderate?

Why don't you tell us Grey? Do you think think they were moderates? Why are you unable to clarify what you mean when you use the term moderate to describe muslims?

Quote:

Why don't you tell us Grey? Do you think think they were moderates? Why are you unable to clarify what you mean when you use the term moderate to describe muslims?

Sure no problem. What I mean by moderate are ordinary working people, with no aspirations to acquire power. People who just get on with their lives and do their best to raise their kids bright, healthy and happy. If they're religious it's mainly ceremonial lip service unless they come in for a serve when they might get a bit defensive.

After moving amongst many cultures during my life I'm certain that describes the vast majority of people.
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2008/s2167985.htm

Quote:

What I mean by moderate are ordinary working people, with no aspirations to acquire power. People who just get on with their lives...

In that case, no I do not think most muslims are moderate. They may not aspire to rule the world themselves, but they aspire it for their co-religionists. Furthermore, everyone seeks some degree of power, even if it is merely self determination. It is what people would do with that power that makes them moderate or extreme. Ask a 'moderate' muslim what sort of rules they would have in an ideal world about democracy, freedom of religion, equality of women before the law etc. You appear to be projecting your own views of mdoeration onto Muslims, justified by little more than the fact that they can manage to hold down a job like everyone else. This does not make them the same as you and you are being no less naive than someone who asserts a Nazi is moderate if he can pay off a mortgage and refrain from personally slaughtering jews.

I suspect that what you fail to realise is that democracy and personal freedom require more than being tolerated if they are to survive. They require active protection. Those who fail to do so inevitably loose their freedom and their right to govern themselves. You would have us trade freedom and democracy for tolerance out of ignorance of the threat. Being able to tolerate democracy and freedom does not make someone moderate. It merely makes them patient.

Freediver - you have become your fear.

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 7:52pm:

Freediver - you have become your fear.

Islam is full of non-negotiables that are against everything that may make your life sweet, optimistic, potentially worthwhile. It is incompatible with every basic assumption and foundation value of your life - assuming you are not a Muslim already.

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 7:52pm:

Freediver - you have become your fear.

I was hoping we had moved past the cheap one liners part of the debate.

These 'moderate muslims' you speak on behalf of - have you ever actually asked them what their views are?

There are 1.57 Billion Muslims in the world and 2.1 billion Christians, if they all want to be jihadists and crusaders it should be epic. But apart from a handful of plane hijackers and another handful of bombers the last decade has seen a lot more Muslims fighting Muslims and Christians fighting Christians. Which is a bit strange if all muslims are so alike you'd think they were all clones.


Quote:

Grey - Freediver - you have become your fear.

Quote:

freediver - I was hoping we had moved past the cheap one liners part of the debate.

I'm perfectly serious. The world has seen too many of these pogroms. Some leader starts convincing people that the others are conspiring to enslave them and before y'know it the 'people' have made the 'others' a victim of their own paranoia.

It's bloody stupid and you're both far to well educated and secure to be pushing this truck of garbage.


Quote:

have you ever actually asked them what their views are?

In what context? If an Atheist, a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim are moving fridges they pretty much all agree a trolley is a good idea. If the question is one of religious belief then they all answer as you would expect but differently. The vast majority don't want a fight about religion if they like you. Being nice to people is the best method of defence. There isn't any gods so just relax and enjoy your life.

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 6:20pm:

Hypocrite? Me? My derision for religion is equal opportunity. But calling 'The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia' a mainstream Muslim is like calling Vladamir Jabotinsky a Palestinian sympathiser and the Pope a Buddhist disciple.  :D

Grey,

Oh, sorry.

And here is me, thinking that Saudi Arabia, was the home of 'mainstream' ISLAM.
How amiss of me, to think such a thing.
/sarc off


Grey,

Please tell us all, where are the exemplars in this world, of 'mainstream' ISLAM ????


+++

here on OzPol.....

"islam and jews"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1299483524/145#145

Quote:

"Abu, Everytime i point to the misdeeds of who refer to themselves as moslems, you claim they are moslem 'hypocrite's [as per the description in the Koran]. Abu, Where are all of the good, the very best examples of moslems ??? Why don't you point to some of those communities of good moslems, so that we 'unbelievers', may admire these true moslem paragons of virtue, who walk this earth ??? Where are all of those people who are paragons of virtue, who call themselves moslems ???"

n.b.
I am still waiting for a reply from Abu.

grey,


Ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr, ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr, ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr, shiver my timbers!
I am so, so, confronted by your 'nasty' bible quotes post.
Ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr!!!
The 'God is a monkey' God, must be a terrible deity !!!
/big sarc off




Your bible quotes post....
"The case against Islamic immigration"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1300943110/89#89


My response....
More muslim daily madness
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238715411/458#458

Yadda wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 8:18am:

grey, Ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr, ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr, ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr, shiver my timbers! I am so, so, confronted by your 'nasty' bible quotes post. Ooooowwaaaarrrrrrrr!!! The 'God is a monkey' God, must be a terrible deity !!! /big sarc off

grey,

In posting those 'nasty' bible quotes in an attempt to intimidate and/or confront me, imo, you are merely demonstrating your utter ignorance, of what OT laws were about.

And, i know that 99% of people would still agree with your position, perspective.


Yadda said...

Quote:

"I am a student of the Bible. And IMO, the OT Bible does teach man ethical behaviour."

"Ranking Ethics"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1292918320/43#43





+++

"And, i know that 99% of people would still agree with your position, perspective."


2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 1:06am:

I'm perfectly serious. The world has seen too many of these pogroms. Some leader starts convincing people that the others are conspiring to enslave them and before y'know it the 'people' have made the 'others' a victim of their own paranoia. It's bloody stupid and you're both far to well educated and secure to be pushing this truck of garbage.

Stupid is you.

Lets pretend that there are no rapists, murderers, and,    ....no good moslems.

Yes, lets all put on our rose tinted glasses, and the world will look so, so, much nicer.

Honest, it will!!!
/sarc off



THE REALITY.....

The Jihad [violence against non-moslems], is the path towards a Sharia system, and it is religious conduct which is justified by all good moslems.

EXAMPLE #1,

December 31, 2007
Pakistani cleric: "We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019399.php

And where does that Pakistani cleric GET such insane ideas from ??????

Hmmmm ?????

Hmmmm ?????

Hmmmm ?????


Let me think.

Oh yes.

Such insane ideas come from ISLAM's 'mainstream' foundation religious texts - the Koran and the Hadith.
EXAMPLE #2,

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

n.b.
Grey,
The contents of the Koran, are the words that moslems live by.

Idiot.



+++

Grey's words,

"....a victim of their own paranoia."

Dictionary;
paranoia = =
1 a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance.
2 unjustified suspicion and mistrust of others.

Dictionary;
phobia = = an extreme or irrational fear of something.


Grey,

Question;

Is 'Yadda' phobic and paranoid?

Or is 'Grey' an idiot, and someone who is averse to acknowledging truth [i.e. averse to acknowledging objective 'REALITY'] ????








Quote:

In what context? If an Atheist, a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim are moving fridges they pretty much all agree a trolley is a good idea. If the question is one of religious belief then they all answer as you would expect but differently. The vast majority don't want a fight about religion if they like you. Being nice to people is the best method of defence. There isn't any gods so just relax and enjoy your life.

Yes, yes, in 1939, the world should have appeased Hitler and Nazi Germany.

So, sensible, that would have been.

BUT, it is so sad, that we can't go back in time, and avoid WWII, and all have lived in glorious harmony.

But hey!!!!

We can avoid war with criminals today!!!!

All we have to do, is appease moslems, and a new age of world peace and harmony will dawn.

Honest!!!!

Surely the new utopia age of human peace and co-operation can not be more than five minutes, or so, away ????

All we have to do is to appease wicked people.

/sarc off



+++

YADDA SAY'S.....


IMO, ppl like yourself [Grey] seem to want a 'peace' at any cost.

But, imo morality, or life, doesn't work like that.

Peace comes from defending open truth.

But your logic seems to be;
'Wanting' something, will produce it.

Or;
'If we give bullies what they want, surely, they will be satisfied, and leave us alone.'

They won't.

If you give a bully/thug, what he wants, he will come back again, and again.

And eventually he will take from you, everything that you own.

And the last thing the bully/the thug, will take from you, is your life.

The appeasement of evil men, does not lead to peace.




IMO, this generation has lost the ability to discern between good and evil, between truth and falsehood.

As individuals, we all know, or as adults, we should know by now!, that if we walk away from truth, we will [always!] reap confusion in our lives.

Peace comes from justice.
Justice comes when *we* respect, and defend, free and open truth.
With justice comes peace.
Justice comes from facing up to, and embracing, TRUTH.



We [who seek peace] are kidding ourselves [we are living in la la land!], if we believe that aggression, or violence, is 'overcome', by our surrender to it!

Or if we believe that the appeasement of evil and wicked men, is a way to peace.

The appeasement of evil [men], does not lead to peace.

The aggression and violence of evil men, is not overcome, by our surrender, to the designs of those evil men.

That path leads only to slavery, and death.

How is peace achieved, in the real world?

Peace comes through sacrifice, and our willingness to fight for truth, and to fight for what is right[eous].

And, judgement.

Peace among men comes as a consequence of righteous judgement.

Peace among men comes when wicked men are judged, and when their fellows [other wicked men] come to understand that their wicked actions, will bring judgement upon them.

Quote:

And here is me, thinking that Saudi Arabia, was the home of 'mainstream' ISLAM.

It's the home of the obnoxious wahabists, beloved of the American elite and spiritual home of the Taliban.


Quote:

The Jihad [violence against non-moslems], is the path towards a Sharia system, and it is religious conduct which is justified by all good moslems.

Jihad means to struggle. It appears 41 times in the Koran, mostly in the expression al-jihad fi sabil Allah which means 'to strive in the way of God'. It usually refers to the internal, personal struggle, it can also mean to defend Islam from aggressors, it doesn't mean 'Holy War'.  


Quote:

The contents of the Koran, are the words that moslems live by.

As do Christians live by the words of the bible, Some clerics like Ian Paisley or Pat Robinson can be as rabid as any Mullah in Pakistan. Christians HAVE conquered most of the world, while singing 'Onward Christian soldiers', Fact is, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all offshoots from the same Abrahamic trunk.

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 11:28am:

Quote: And here is me, thinking that Saudi Arabia, was the home of 'mainstream' ISLAM. It's the home of the obnoxious wahabists, beloved of the American elite and spiritual home of the Taliban. [quote]The Jihad [violence against non-moslems], is the path towards a Sharia system, and it is religious conduct which is justified by all good moslems.

Jihad means to struggle. It appears 41 times in the Koran, mostly in the expression al-jihad fi sabil Allah which means 'to strive in the way of God'. It usually refers to the internal, personal struggle, it can also mean to defend Islam from aggressors, it doesn't mean 'Holy War'.  


Quote:

The contents of the Koran, are the words that moslems live by.

As do Christians live by the words of the bible, Some clerics like Ian Paisley or Pat Robinson can be as rabid as any Mullah in Pakistan. Christians HAVE conquered most of the world, while singing 'Onward Christian soldiers', Fact is, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all offshoots from the same Abrahamic trunk.

[/quote]

Mohammad Wahhab was a Islamic scholar he did not do anything innovative in fact none of the popular scholars did anything outside of the Quran and hadiths.
So tell me how do the Wahabbi differ from the Salafi or Sunni?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al-Wahhab

The Saudi are usually Salafi/Sunni/Wahhabi and like the Sufi they all follow the Bukhari hadiths the Shia differ in the fact they dont respect Bukhari and have their own hadiths.
The sunni/salafi/Wahhabi all consider the shia as deviant because they have their own hadiths which is where the secterian violence comes from over this doctrinal difference.
Since the Sufi/Salafi/Sunni/Wahhabi are the majority sects and shia are a minority it would be fair to say the majority will take notice of what the grand mufti of saudi says it is one of the 5 pillars of Islam to visit Mecca to see a black rock in a vagina and throw stones at satan.
One of the 5 pillars of Islam commands muslims to visit Mecca which is the homeland of Islam.

You should learn the truth about Jihad instead of listening to the dawaganda from muslims they have lied to you.
See what this Sheik says about Jihad he makes you look somewhat ignorant on this subject.
 "There are 13 types of Jihad and whoever dies without having fought or having resolved to fight has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy".
The Quran has a word for these so called moderate muslims it calls them hypocrites!
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20214/jihad

Since you are keen to drag christians into a thread on Islam lets compare them.
When did the christians stop killing heretics?
Muslims kill heretics and have a death penalty for apostasy-you cannot leave Islam.

When did the christians stop killing people for blasphemy?
Muslims still kill people for blasphemy they killed a politician in pakistan who opposed the blasphemy law.Its blasphemy to oppose the blasphemy law.

When did the christians stop killing gays?
Ahmadinejad says there are no gays in Iran- they hang them.

How do the christians react if you burn a bible?
Did you hear the Indonesian President say burning a Quran in Florida threatens world peace?
Its a death penalty for desecrating the Quran.

What about drawing pictures are the christians cool with that?
Muslims kill people over drawings.

What about wife beating we throw people in jail for that
Islam allows wife beating if you fear disobedience.
http://quran.com/4/34

Muslims claim the Quran is the words from Allah so with Quran 4:34 it appears Allah the most mercifull has given men permission to beat their wives

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 11:28am:

Quote: And here is me, thinking that Saudi Arabia, was the home of 'mainstream' ISLAM. It's the home of the obnoxious wahabists, beloved of the American elite and spiritual home of the Taliban.

Deflection, deflection, deflection.

Deceitful deflection.

Grey,

Why don't you tell us that Saudi Arabia is a colony of the USA !

And that no moslems in Saudi Arabia have no control over their own circumstances.

Hmmm ????

Why can't moslems be responsible for their own choices ???

Why is it that whenever moslems do immoral things they EITHER,
#1, ARE NOT REAL' MOSLEMS ???,
OR,
#2, THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT MOSLEMS DO WRONG, ALWAYS LAYS AT THE FEET OF OTHERS, I.E. NON-MOSLEMS  ???i

Quote:

[quote]The Jihad [violence against non-moslems], is the path towards a Sharia system, and it is religious conduct which is justified by all good moslems.

Jihad means to struggle. It appears 41 times in the Koran, mostly in the expression al-jihad fi sabil Allah which means 'to strive in the way of God'. It usually refers to the internal, personal struggle, it can also mean to defend Islam from aggressors, it doesn't mean 'Holy War'.  

[/quote]


Grey,

why are you spreading 'information' like this when it is clearly a misrepresentation of Jihad????

I KNOW WHY.



Read it for yourself people....

Jihad....

Noble Quran 2:190 Footnote:
"Jihad is holy fighting in Allahs Cause.......Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."
....on page 39 of the Noble Qur’an , translation by Muhammad Khan

The Hadith itself says....

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.026i
Quote:

[quote]The contents of the Koran, are the words that moslems live by.

As do Christians live by the words of the bible, Some clerics like Ian Paisley or Pat Robinson can be as rabid as any Mullah in Pakistan. Christians HAVE conquered most of the world, while singing 'Onward Christian soldiers', Fact is, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all offshoots from the same Abrahamic trunk.

[/quote]



Grey,

All you speak is falsehood and deception.

ISLAM has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism and Christianity.

Mohammed made it up, as he went along.

The whole edifice of ISLAM is a fraud , upon those, who follow that philosophy of death.



ISLAM has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism and Christianity ?

PROOF ????

Compare the words of, the God of the OT Bible, and the words of, the God of ISLAM....

Plain as day...

"an eye-opening analysis of terrorism in Europe"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294223444/46#46

AND,

"Do you believe Allah, Yahweh, are the same God"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1230510088/0#0




Google;
a different god allah

Google;
allah another god


THE MOSLEM ASSERTION THAT;

'Allah, and the Jewish God, are the same God.'

THAT, is just more ISLAMIC duplicity and lies.

I'm with Grey on this one.
Most Australian Moslems are Moderate.

If I act like a Pro-Internationally Federally level of Australia, Pro-UK Governor-General or a Pro-USA Prime Minister - chances are I would fear and despise Moslems upon the grounds of how they behave and display in their own Region of the World.
I would be a justification for them to behave the same way here in Australia as they would back there.

But I'm not.

So most 'Moslems' I meet socially and work with don't really give a hoot about such behaviour. I've even tried to rattle one guy by pretending to be Jewish to see if he can't cope with being in the same personal space as me. He just said annoyed "I'm just a Sparky."

I also see a lot of Christians in Australia trying to 'exploit' the hatred towards Moslems as a justification that they themselves are loved and wanted. Camden is a good example of Christians exploiting a Farming region that doesn't like Religion - period. So once again, we see x3 Monotheism using one another to further their gains over non-religious entities.

I also see a lot of people using the excuse of Individualism to bully & degrade the Moslem (Middle-East) act of 'mass-production-breeding' character. How can a Nation like the USA, with the world's highest Divorce Rate and denegration of women - condemn Moslems for how they treat their women. Maybe they are jealous that Moslem women get to have more Children than them without the need for an X-Box or TV?? Such Bullying is like Gays telling Rednecks how to 'be'. ::) Maybe if it was American 'Breeders' saying something about the Moslem 'Breeders' - then maybe there might be a case arguement.

Anyway, here in Australia - there are Moslems that are Moderate, if not passive and 'Individualistically' detached from their former way off life.

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 11:28am:

[quote] Jihad means to struggle. It appears 41 times in the Koran, mostly in the expression al-jihad fi sabil Allah which means 'to strive in the way of God'. It usually refers to the internal, personal struggle, it can also mean to defend Islam from aggressors, it doesn't mean 'Holy War'.

With Quran 9:5 they dont even use the word Jihad in the verse of the sword.

"And when the sacred months have passed,then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush"
http://quran.com/9/5

Islam was spread by the sword, muslims try to deny this when asked because it makes Islam look bad yet what they say to muslims behing your back differs from what they tell you.
The last line in the sheiks reply-
"Islam was spread by means of proof and evidence to those who listened to the message and responded to it,and it spread by means of force and the sword to those who were stubborn and arrogant,untill they were overwhelmed and became no longer stubborn and submitted to that reality"
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/43087/was%20islam%20spread%20by%20the%20sword

You should brush up on your knowledge of Jihad here is a link lots of good stuff there by ex muslims who rejected Islam because it is bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit
www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Jihad

Jihad?

Me thinks there are Moslems 'playing up' to the American Media.
These Moslems probably hold a Gun rather than a Book in the name of Religion ::).
Me thinks they say "Jihad" because it is another Westernised coinage of a word inappropriately.
Me thinks Moslems don't hate Americans, just the Media.

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 1:00pm:

These Moslems probably hold a Gun rather than a Book in the name of Religion ::). Me thinks they say "Jihad" because it is another Westernised coinage of a word inappropriately.

If you look at the photos why are they holding the Quran in their right hand?

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6795/godnguns.jpg

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2785/jihadnowbyjihadprincess.jpg

They 'spiritually' attire themselves as Military, rather than Religious.
They are Militants not Moslems.
Only a True Moslem would hold only a Book, specifically the Book of Mohommedism
...and a true Religious person would help the world to Read & Write, regardless of what the language or story is being expressed.

Denial & Hypocrisy are those two photos ....maaaaaaaaaaate.

Me thinks a lot of Australian Moslems are sick of these Moslems giving their Religion a bad/false name. >:(

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 12:41pm:

So most 'Moslems' I meet socially and work with don't really give a hoot about such behaviour. I've even tried to rattle one guy by pretending to be Jewish to see if he can't cope with being in the same personal space as me. He just said annoyed "I'm just a Sparky." How can a Nation like the USA, with the world's highest Divorce Rate and denegration of women - condemn Moslems for how they treat their women. Anyway, here in Australia - there are Moslems that are Moderate, if not passive and 'Individualistically' detached from their former way off life.

Islam has the death penalty for apostasy you cannot leave Islam which results in those who have left Islam not even telling their own family because of the consequences.
A lot of apostates are mistaken for moderates (Quran calls these moderates- hypocrites) even my friend Metin from Turkey who left Islam about 20 years ago tells everyone he is a muslim because he does not want his family to find out the truth.
You could look at the introductions here at the Council of Ex muslims and see that about 1 in 10 is brave enough to tell their own family they dont believe in Islam anymore.
www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0
Ask your muslim friends if they support the death penalty for apostasy and listen carefully to what they say on this subject.

As for your nonsense about the way Americans treat their women compared to Islam do you realise how difficult it is for a woman to get a divorce in Islam?
You should brush up on your knowledge with women in Islam.
www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Women

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 1:36pm:

They 'spiritually' attire themselves as Military, rather than Religious. They are Militants not Moslems. Only a True Moslem would hold only a Book, specifically the Book of Mohommedism ...and a true Religious person would help the world to Read & Write, regardless of what the language or story is being expressed. Denial & Hypocrisy are those two photos ....maaaaaaaaaaate. Me thinks a lot of Australian Moslems are sick of these Moslems giving their Religion a bad/false name. >:(

So what is this book you call Mohommedism?

So what about this muslim do you think he enhances the image of muslims in Australia by bashing a female paramedic?
www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/ali-mobayad-accused-of-assaulting-ambo-as-she-treated-car-crash-victim/story-e6fruezi-1226031629895

What about this shooting at a hindu temple in Auburn do you think it was done by the same belief that did a drive by shooting of a church in auburn before burning it down ?
www.smh.com.au/nsw/fear-strikes-as-temple-showered-in-bullets-20110329-1ceuo.html

If Islam has an image problem it is a direct result from the behaviour of muslims

I think you twats need to go back to Television land (you know, the one that exists in the Occidental realm ...thats if you know what and where that is ::)) with your 'victimised' views and 'archaic answers' to those who walk in the direction of the future.

David Malouf: Proud Aussie/Moslem Writer and a far better writer than any of 'youse'.

Wouldn't be surprised if Bown-skinned people start teaching Australia how to dress in future.

Keep looking to the past you twats and keep playing the Criminal too for that matter (who are you to ridicule others!)

Twats!
::)

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 1:36pm:

They 'spiritually' attire themselves as Military, rather than Religious. They are Militants not Moslems. Only a True Moslem would hold only a Book, specifically the Book of Mohommedism ...and a true Religious person would help the world to Read & Write, regardless of what the language or story is being expressed. Denial & Hypocrisy are those two photos ....maaaaaaaaaaate. Me thinks a lot of Australian Moslems are sick of these Moslems giving their Religion a bad/false name. >:(

IMO, people like yourself, are devoid of any respect for truth.

What will be the ultimate fate of those who hate truth?




Isaiah 6:8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



+++

Jasignature assures us;


It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 1:36pm:

They are Militants not Moslems. ....a True Moslem would hold only a Book, specifically the Book of Mohommedism

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

i.e. Muhammad is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And that Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed.


"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.025

etc, etc, etc.....


CONCLUSION;

People like Jasignature are;
#1, Lying deceivers,
OR,
#2, they are idiots.

You choose.

Hence why the Monotheisms of
Judaism (a 'reflection' of Asia)
Christianity (a 'reflection' of Europe)
Mohommedism (a 'reflection' of Africa)

don't connect directly with the Middle-East itself.

Thankfully new Religions from North America, South America and Oceania will connect in a more orthodox fashion with the Middle-East.
They will also help the Middle-East give 'Religion' a good name finally.

As for the Religions of Judaism, Christianity and Mohommedism (Asia, Europe, Africa) - well they will be used as Toilet Paper because they tend to think 'life' is cheaper. ;)
Most of Asia (sport and city), Europe (medicine and cooking) and Africa (land and mathematics) will 'dump' Religion anyway in favour of the Occidental (Music and Science). ;D

So there you have it: The very African influenced Religion of Mathematics and (holy) Land known as Mohomedism is a flawed Religion.

SIN of UR

Jasignature, your heart is in the right place and I agree with you that there are a lot, maybe most, of muslims who are moderate.
But you cannot surely fail to see what happens when they get near to a critical mass in Western societies, like France & Britain.
They start wanting to change the nature of the society to suit their religion and culture and to have it predominate.
The moderate mass are swept up, maybe through peer pressure, in the demands of the more militant.
I say we can avoid that situation ever happening here to destroy the chance for our grandchildren to enjoy a peaceful environment.

I understand that any 'moderate mass' will want to stick together, its also called 'teamwork', everyone else does it too.
I mean, when Christians, Jews and Moslems find themselves in a non-religious environment - they seem to 'stick together'.

I'm just saying that Australia presents an opportunity for 'individual' Moslems to stand up for the 'individuality' of their Religion.
Alas, there are a lot of Australians who still hold onto cultural ties to the past/other parts of the world as well and its like watching people screaming panic and crawling over one another upon a sinking ship that hasn't made shore.

I say: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
And if Australia identifies itself as Political poverty, Artistic wealth for starters, then thats the way it goes in this part of town. Especially in the direction of the 'future' and not the past.

Are these sorts of things what you mean by "teamwork"?

According to the latest reports 10 people (mainly Christians) were killed and more than 100 injured yesterday after a protest following the burning of a church south of the
Egyptian capital. Over Christmas 23 Egyptian Copts were slaughtered in a suicide bombing.

Police detained Christian families in Upper Egypt and forced them to deny arson attacks on their homes during a spate of anti-Christian violence in February, the families said.
Two Coptic Orthodox families said police detained them for 36 hours when they attempted to report an assault on their homes in Armant, south of Cairo. The fires came five days after Muslim groups set four Christian-owned shops alight on February 9.
The international media reported that rumours of a love affair between a Christian man and Muslim woman sparked the violence, but local papers said hostilities began over accusations that Christians were blackmailing Muslim women to convert.
The authorities detained the Christians when they tried to report the arson attack on their homes. "Police asked them to sign statements that they had attempted to set their own homes on fire to claim that they were being attacked by Muslims and to demand police protection."

CBS foreign correspondent Lara Logan suffered a "brutal" sexual assault at the hands of a mob in Egypt while covering the downfall of president Hosni Mubarak, the US network said this morning.
"She and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration. It was a mob of more than 200 people whipped into a frenzy," CBS said in a statement.
"In the crush of the mob, she was separated from her crew. She was surrounded and suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers."

Could be worse if 10,000 Sydney boys decide to carry six-packs of beer and do some 'socialising' with Moslems inside their Mosques.
And trust me, they really want to.

Also, Egypt holds true to 'real Middle-Eastern' ways from waaaaaay back. Won't be long before even Moslems are kicked out.

Quote:

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." " http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith...

Yadda Jihad doesn't mean 'religious fighting' it means the moral struggle.

I wonder what would happen if a person ripped and burnt a bible during a hillside meeting? I'm curious but not keen to try it personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9sJVJMiYM

That has got to be one of the most funniest send-ups I have ever seen.
Good stuff Grey.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 5:13pm:

Jihad doesn't mean 'religious fighting' it means the moral struggle.

You are a filthy LIAR.

So tell me do you expect people to believe your lies or believe what is preached in Islam ?

You call muslims "moderate" the Quran has a word for these so called moderates it calls them hypocrites.
Jihad against the hypocrites explained by a Sheik who preaches Islam
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/42534/jihad


There are 13 types of Jihad.
"whoever dies without having fought or having resolved to fight has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy"
The Sheik explains all 13 types of Jihad here in this link and yes it does involve fighting.
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20214/jihad

Here you go the good sheik even explains the wisdom behind Jihad if you read this link.
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/21961/jihad

The sheik even goes into more detail on why Jihad is prescribed in this link.
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/34647/jihad

They dont even need to mention Jihad in Quran 9:5 the verse of the sword.
www.quran.com/9/5

Do you expect us to believe all those who preach Islam somehow got it wrong and you are the only one who understands Jihad?

Muslim immigration leads to terrorism and a struggle to overthrow our culture and force us into the caliphate :)

10,000 Sydney boys (last time it was just 5,000) wanting to socialise and drink beer with Moslems in and around Mosques.
10,000 Sydney boys won't take no for an answer and find it offensive and un-australian not to share in a 'few beers'.
>:( >:(

Quote:

You are a filthy LIAR.

So sorry, I just came in from the garden and haven't had time to change yet.  :-*

;)

Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your Lord and master, so he can remove a black bit from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat an apple from a magic tree.

I have to admit that on balance it's not the most convincing argument I ever heard.

Islam

Atheist have no credibility criticizing anybody.

http://www.nihili.st/nihilism.jpg ;D ;D ;D ;D

They are bringing in people to this country with a values system totally alien to us and joining with them in the attack on our culture and people.  The corporate and pro immigration people are both criminally insane. :)

Who said anything about Anti-Religion (Atheism)?
You Christo-Judaistic-Moslem of Monotheism.

Told you, Christians try to exploit hatred against other Religions to further their cause ...just like in Camden.

I learn't to read and write in Libraries - I didn't need Religion to tell me what to read and write.

My argument is not religiously based it is based in the facts - they are importing an alien people with a goal to conquer us as a group and a culture, not join to us.  Islam is wrong for western culture :P :P

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 5:13pm:

Yadda Jihad doesn't mean 'religious fighting' it means the moral struggle.

That's nonsense.

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Lesser_vs_Greater_Jihad_Myth


Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 5:13pm:

I wonder what would happen if a person ripped and burnt a bible during a hillside meeting? I'm curious but not keen to try it personally.

How about gays defacing Bibles in an art exhibition, Muslims burning them, using them for toilet paper, or urinating on Torah scrolls?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/07/organization-representing-gay-christians-and-muslims-allows-bible-to-be-publicly-defaced-but-not-qur.html
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2010/s10060047.htm
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44324
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=17101

I put up with you North Shore snots in Mt Druitt and had to fight off your 'Westie' thugs hammer and tong.
You can take your Westernised Australia and put it back where it belongs - past the North Shore and back into your good old USA.

So if Moslems are out to get 'Westernised' Australians - so be it.
Don't drag us into your pood-pile.

...I think I might get some popcorn and watch some action Moslems V Westies  ;D

Quote:

My argument is not religiously based it is based in the facts - they are importing an alien people with a goal to conquer us as a group and a culture, not join to us.  Islam is wrong for western culture.

People are coming to Australia in search of a better way of life for themslves and their children. Islam has always been a part of Western Culture.

http://goingtolondon.wikispaces.com/file/view/st._paul%27s_cathedral/65972090/st._paul%27s_cathedral

Prevailing wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 7:06pm:

Atheist have no credibility criticizing anybody. http://www.nihili.st/nihilism.jpg ;D ;D ;D ;D

Religion, there's nothing in it. :)

Yes, if it wasn't for Moslems learning maths from the Blacks, Europe (that includes Westie Europe) would still be counting the days during the dark ages.
;D

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 7:01pm:

Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your Lord and master, so he can remove a black bit from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat an apple from a magic tree. I have to admit that on balance it's not the most convincing argument I ever heard. Islam

Sneering and jeering is for morons.  You could not have your faith in reason without Christianity. You couldn't have your history, literature, philosophy, all your mental furniture without it. You wouln't be you without Christianity.  
Don't believe in it. But when you sneer at it, when you jeer at it, you are the manic idiot sticking out his tongue at the mirror.

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 5:20pm:

That has got to be one of the most funniest send-ups I have ever seen. Good stuff Grey. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

bugger, you are simple.

Soren wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 9:42pm:

Sneering and jeering is for morons.  You could not have your faith in reason without Christianity. You couldn't have your history, literature, philosophy, all your mental furniture without it. You wouln't be you without Christianity.   Don't believe in it. But when you sneer at it, when you jeer at it, you are the manic idiot sticking out his tongue at the mirror.

Oh dear, you do have it bad don't you? I assure you Reason, History, Literature and joined up thinking all existed and would've continued to develop without religious interference. For instance neither spelt a miraculous natural hybrid discovered and cultivated near Jericho nor the subsequent further hybridization which occurred in Turkey 10,000 years ago to produce the wheat civilization is fed on needed the church. Neither did the wheel's, (and axles) inventor 3,500 years BCE, who managed to nut out the problems all on his/her own. Where does literature start ? The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' (2000 BCE) Or perhaps to the more poetic 16,000 years before that at Lascaux.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnSq0c7jM-A

Ascribing human enlightenment to religion is just daft. The cart is pulling a dead horse up the mountain.

I have badly misjudged Jasignature. I took him for a person of goodwill but I find he is just a waste of space.
Grey is a more serious problem. He seems to have education but a warped outlook and the inability or the refusal to see that what we are talking about is not religion as such, but a culture clash and a struggle for survival.

In 2009 I spent a month in Europe -- Britain, Germany, France and Belgium -- working on Muslim immigration issues.

I interviewed government ministers, immigration officials, non-government organisation advocates, immigrants themselves and almost anyone who would talk to me. What became clear was that uncontrolled Muslim immigration from North Africa (and from Pakistan in Britain's case) had presented itself as an asylum issue, and thereby disabled Europe's political response, and had been a disaster on the ground.

Christopher Caldwell's book, Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, the best book of any kind on public policy I have read, establishes definitively that this has been overwhelmingly a determined illegal immigration, not a refugee question.

The same is happening in northern Australia now, and as the Gillard government loses control of the situation, the number of illegal immigrants, almost all Muslim, will increase, exactly replicating the dynamics of Europe's disaster, though of course on a much smaller scale.

So while I remain an advocate of a bigger immigration program, and would be happy to have the refugee quota enlarged, I am now a strong critic of lax borders and allowing illegal immigrants to turn up without papers and then settle permanently.

Caldwell's book, along with the evidence of my own eyes, also convinced me that many North Africans were not going to Europe to embrace European values but to continue their North African life, with its values, at a European living standard and at the expense of the European taxpayer.

Living next to Lakemba for nearly 15 years also gave me a different view of how immigration can go wrong. Our sons went initially to a state primary school that had a brilliant principal and did a fine job.

But as they approached secondary school a senior teacher told us that our boys had academic potential and it would be a tragedy to send them to the local high school. It was riven with violence and misogyny, drugs and gang and ethnic conflict.

If you find yourself unexpectedly in a war zone, your instinct is to evacuate the family, so the boys went to a private Catholic school, which was racially and even religiously diverse, though I don't believe there were any Muslim kids there. It was excellent.

Lakemba and surrounding areas such as Punchbowl had a large Lebanese Muslim population, many of whom had come when Malcolm Fraser crazily instituted a come-one, come-all admissions policy for those claiming to be refugees from the Lebanon conflicts of the 80s.

Replicating the European experience that the second generation had more trouble than the first, it was the sons of some of these immigrants who figured heavily in anti-social activities.

I was shocked to discover the growth of jihadi culture in Lakemba. We used to go to its main street for shopping and for food.

One day, waiting for a pizza order, I wandered into the Muslim bookshop. I was astounded to see titles such as The International Jew or The Truth about the Pope, amid a welter of anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and pro-extremist literature.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/how-i-lost-faith-in-multiculturalism/story-fn59niix-1226031793805

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 5:13pm:

Quote: "Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." " http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith... Yadda Jihad doesn't mean 'religious fighting' it means the moral struggle. I wonder what would happen if a person ripped and burnt a bible during a hillside meeting? I'm curious but not keen to try it personally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9sJVJMiYM

Grey,

It doesn't matter how many times that you may call the truth a lie, or, a falsehood, what is true, is true.

The fact that you deny truth, the fact that you are averse to truth, when it doesn't align with your preconceived worldview, doesn't change the fact that all good moslems are duplicitous, in how the define Arabic words in English.

And almost all good moslems are duplicitous, and false, in how they represent ISLAM, when speaking to non-moslem audiences.






EXAMPLES;


DECEIT EXAMPLE #1,
GOOD MOSLEM SPEAKS TO NON-MOSLEM AUDIENCE - blatant deceit

A UK moslem *community leader*, speaking in the wake of the London 7/7 bombing;
"We condemn the killing of all innocent civilians."

#1,
SAME GOOD MOSLEM SPEAKS TO A *MOSLEM* AUDIENCE

"...Later when he addressed his own followers he explained that he had in fact been referring only to Muslims as only they were innocent: "Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any kuffar." "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article552594.ece




DECEIT EXAMPLE #2,
GOOD MOSLEM SPEAKS TO NON-MOSLEM AUDIENCE - blatant deceit

"The Undercover Mosque: The return"
"A group of Christians visiting the mosque and the preacher and the Women's Circle treat [the Christians] kindly and talk about,
'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'."

#2,
SAME GOOD MOSLEM THEN, SPEAKS TO A *MOSLEM* AUDIENCE

"Just as soon as that group of visitors [the Christians] leaves, the language changes completely. 'CHRISTIANITY IS VILE', the preacher says....."

Source;
ABC Radio National Religion interview transcript  - "The Undercover Mosque: The return"
".....Stephen Crittenden: .....your program highlights a certain kind of duplicity. When they're caught out, individuals don't miss a [beat], they just say they've been taken out of context....
David Henshaw: ......Regent's Park Mosque is officially committed to inter-faith dialogue....."
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2008/2360820.htm#transcript



+++

Anther example of moslem duality, and duplicity, when 'communicating' with non-moslems about ISLAM....


All non-moslems should be told, and should come to understand and know, that moslems and non-moslems define certain common English words very, very differently.

To a moslem words like these, mean...

Peace = = Submission to Allah is the only peace recognized in Islam.

Righteousness = = Is following the Way of Allah. A moslem can be a killer and murder of non-moslems and yet be regarded by all good moslems as a righteous person.

Good works = = To be good for a moslem is to submit to Allah's will and then follow the 'right' path established by the examples set by the Prophet. [Murdering critics and murdering other assorted 'enemies', pirating against peaceful non-moslem communities, paedophilia, raping women captives which were secured in raiding parties, etc. ALL THESE ACTIONS BY MOHAMMED ARE CATALOGUED AND RECORDED IN THE HADITH.]


Source for how moslems define the meaning of words differently,

Google,
Islam 101: A Lexicon for Dummies

Quote:

There are 1.57 Billion Muslims in the world and 2.1 billion Christians, if they all want to be jihadists and crusaders it should be epic. But apart from a handful of plane hijackers and another handful of bombers the last decade has seen a lot more Muslims fighting Muslims and Christians fighting Christians. Which is a bit strange if all muslims are so alike you'd think they were all clones.

None of my suggestions even hint at them being clones. How is this even relevant? Would you argue we let convicted rapists or thieves in because until now they have targetted people in their own country rather than Australians?


Quote:

I'm perfectly serious. The world has seen too many of these pogroms.

Did you read what I suggested? How is choosing who can enter this country anything like a pogrom?


Quote:

In what context? If an Atheist, a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim are moving fridges they pretty much all agree a trolley is a good idea. If the question is one of religious belief then they all answer as you would expect but differently. The vast majority don't want a fight about religion if they like you.

My suggestions have nothing to do with trolleys or relgion. They are about democracy and freedom. And unlike you, I have asked Muslims about it. I suggest you do the same. Or are you suggesting that the ability to move a fridge is the only criteria we should apply to potential immigrants?


Quote:

Being nice to people is the best method of defence.

Have you ever had to actually defend yourself? This sort of naive BS only works while you are paying someone else to carry your stick.


Quote:

I'm with Grey on this one. Most Australian Moslems are Moderate.

Then I ask you the same question Jas - what do you actually mean by moderate? Do you even know what you mean? Does being 'just a sparky' make someone moderate?


Quote:

I also see a lot of people using the excuse of Individualism to bully & degrade the Moslem (Middle-East) act of 'mass-production-breeding' character. How can a Nation like the USA, with the world's highest Divorce Rate and denegration of women - condemn Moslems for how they treat their women.

Have you ever asked a woman whether they would prefer to live under American law and social standards or Islamic ones? Or would that involve mentioning too many of those inconvenient details you try so hard to avoid? You seem to be projecting a lot onto both Muslims and women without even stopping to ask them what they think.


Quote:

Maybe they are jealous that Moslem women get to have more Children than them without the need for an X-Box or TV??

Again Jas, have you ever asked a woman what they want?


Quote:

Me thinks there are Moslems 'playing up' to the American Media.

Again Jas, have you ever asked them why they do what they do?


Quote:

Only a True Moslem would hold only a Book, specifically the Book of Mohommedism

So Jas, you even define Islam for them? Aren't you taking the whole arrogance thing a bit too far?


Quote:

Me thinks a lot of Australian Moslems are sick of these Moslems giving their Religion a bad/false name.

Why don't you ask them what they think Jas?


Quote:

I'm just saying that Australia presents an opportunity for 'individual' Moslems to stand up for the 'individuality' of their Religion.

Would you support immigration policy that bars entry to those who have no interest in doing so?


Quote:

I wonder what would happen if a person ripped and burnt a bible during a hillside meeting? I'm curious but not keen to try it personally.

I think they would get laughed at. If you had a choice between doing that in the heartland of happy clappers or the heartland of Islam, which would you choose?

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 8:58am:

I have badly misjudged Jasignature. I took him for a person of goodwill but I find he is just a waste of space. Grey is a more serious problem. He seems to have education but a warped outlook and the inability or the refusal to see that what we are talking about is not religion as such, but a culture clash and a struggle for survival.

bogarde73,

I am certain that many some 'calming voices' in political forums like this one, are in fact undeclared moslem posters, who portray themselves, as non-moslems.

Undeclared, so to give their 'calming' voice, their opinion, an unbiased 'air'.



e.g.
Witness the poster in this thread who is adamant, about the 'neutral' meaning, of the Arabic word, 'Jihad',
....despite the fact that ISLAMIC religious texts [the Hadith], clearly define the word 'Jihad', as, religious fighting.

n.b.
This document source [though located on a US university website] is maintained/'authorised' as authentic, by an ISLAMIC group...

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.026

Quote:

Yadda - And almost all good moslems are duplicitous, and false, in how they represent ISLAM, when speaking to non-moslem audiences.

Yadda, look deep into my eyes  :) , I don't have a fixed world view. I was for most of my life an Anarchist. The only reason I don't use that as a self description now is the realisation that the only Anarchist gang worth anything is called 'general public'. I'm also an atheist, my view is unimpeded by dogma.

My only interest is in finding true things. Usually that means finding the point of paradox where the conflicting views collide. I don't wish to defend Islam actually. I find all religions pretty well equal in their respective nuttyness. But when one side is dominating the argument I'll take the other to make the balance.

Of course a Muslims point of view will always be biased. So will the view of any gang member be biased. I'm familiar with  'undercover mosque', it was a work of journalism that needed doing and it was well done. I don't want Mullah's like that in Australia and they are here. But it is equally false to assert that they represent the views of all Muslims.  Some of the preaching that comes off Christian pulpits and some of what is said in synagogues is as divisive and hate driven. All churches need to be held to account.

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 1:49pm:

Quote: Yadda - And almost all good moslems are duplicitous, and false, in how they represent ISLAM, when speaking to non-moslem audiences. Yadda, look deep into my eyes  :) , I don't have a fixed world view. I was for most of my life an Anarchist. The only reason I don't use that as a self description now is the realisation that the only Anarchist gang worth anything is called 'general public'. I'm also an atheist, my view is unimpeded by dogma. My only interest is in finding true things. Usually that means finding the point of paradox where the conflicting views collide. I don't wish to defend Islam actually. I find all religions pretty well equal in their respective nuttyness. But when one side is dominating the argument I'll take the other to make the balance. Of course a Muslims point of view will always be biased. So will the view of any gang member be biased. I'm familiar with  'undercover mosque', it was a work of journalism that needed doing and it was well done. I don't want Mullah's like that in Australia and they are here. But it is equally false to assert that they represent the views of all Muslims.  Some of the preaching that comes off Christian pulpits and some of what is said in synagogues is as divisive and hate driven. All churches need to be held to account.

Grey,

Thank you for your post, making your position clear.

Quote:

I don't want Mullah's like that in Australia and they are here.

So you support immigration restrictions?

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 1:49pm:

Of course a Muslims point of view will always be biased. So will the view of any gang member be biased. I'm familiar with  'undercover mosque', it was a work of journalism that needed doing and it was well done. I don't want Mullah's like that in Australia and they are here. But it is equally false to assert that they represent the views of all Muslims.  Some of the preaching that comes off Christian pulpits and some of what is said in synagogues is as divisive and hate driven. All churches need to be held to account.

You are starting from a false premise;

The premise that it is possible for moslems to define themselves [i.e. who is a moslem].

Wrong.

ISLAM alone, defines who is a moslem.




It is ISLAM itself, which defines who is a moslem.

Not you, and not those who may claim that they can define themselves as 'moslem', or may choose to refer to themselves as 'moslems'.

To be moslem, a person must accept the doctrines of ISLAM.

Doctrines which insist that it is 'legal' of moslems, to murder anyone who will not submit to ISLAM's authority over their lives, and to murder anyone who renounces his faith [in ISLAM].

Doctrines which promote deception as an act of Jihad, against those non-moslems who are [atm] too strong to subjugate.

THOSE ARE PROVABLE FACTS.

AND, within that definition of, 'anyone' [who can 'lawfully' be killed by moslems], is also included ppl, who may refer to themselves as moslems, but who live an un-ISLAMIC lifestyle.


+++

ISLAMIC law texts declare whom moslems can 'lawfully' kill,
i.e. 'unbelievers'.

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
law/fiqhussunnah/fus3_50
www site...
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Ramadan/1424/10/fiqhi_issues/Rulings_of_Fasting/article_02.shtml

n.b. "Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."


The Koran.....

"Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.
Koran 47.33-35

i.e. 'Those who disbelieve' and resist the authority of ISLAM over their lives, they are the enemies of Allah, kill them.
When you have the upper hand, slay them.



The Hadith,
"...If somebody (a moslem) discards his religion, kill him."
bukhari/ #004.052.260

Quote:

Bogarde - I have badly misjudged Jasignature. I took him for a person of goodwill but I find he is just a waste of space. Grey is a more serious problem. He seems to have education but a warped outlook and the inability or the refusal to see that what we are talking about is not religion as such, but a culture clash and a struggle for survival.

What's this? An attempt to divide and rule Bogey?  ;D

I'm inclined to agree with most of Greg Sheridans piece.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/how-i-lost-faith-in-multiculturalism/story-fn59niix-1226031793805

What he doesn't address is the cause of modern Islamic militancy. In large measure it's our own devil biting us (the western hegemony) on the arse. Not surprising for somebody who, as he said, has been an unwavering supporter of Israel.

Let me for the record say these things. And if I contradict myself, as Walt Whitman said. "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am legion, there are many of us living here."

I have never  supported multiculturalism. From the first time I heard the word I hated it. I love and desire cosmopolitan society, that happy period when cultures merge and share, reject what is not useful and adopt that which is good. It's a dynamic process that is beyond the scope of government interference.

I don't think France ever adopted MC in the first place. France has always taken the same line. The French are completely colourblind, anybody from anywhere is French - just as long as they act French in everyway. I love the french for their antiracism, I loathe their authoritarianism, (I once saw a gendarme whack a kid across the face with a truncheon for leaning on a parked car). France has been a favoured refuge for black americans like Billie Holliday, Paul Robson and Nina Simone, but it can never be cosmopolitan like London, or Istanbul.  

I supported a war to oust the Taliban even before 9/11. If there's one thing worse than fascism it's theofascism, nobody anywhere should have to live like that; not in Afghanistan, nor Yemen, Saudi Arabia or anywhere else. That includes Iran, but Iran is different. I don't believe
that the hard line clerics of Iran are as entrenched. I think the Persians are a sophisticated people who will soon sort themselves out.

I don't think that there's any reason to not accept 'economic refugees'. Things have to be extreme before people will leave their homelands for whatever reason. If it was a simple matter of 'being better off' Scotland and the North of England would have emptied into London decades ago and London would've emptied into Australia in the sixties. The vast majority of people will not leave no matter how bad things get.

If Al Quaeda terrorists wanted to enter Australia they'd be more likely to hold Israeli diplomatic passports and fly in Quantas business class, than attempt to cross the sea in a leaky boat.

Australia isn't served by damaging people psychologically before letting them out into the community. Nobody in their right mind would riot while waiting to get residency approval without feeling that this was the only way to be noticed enough to get anything happening at all before dieing of old age.

People should be dealt with always as themselves. Not as Jews or Muslims or black or white. The worst thing that is being said here is that Muslims are all the same. Nearly 2 billion people 'all the same', it's bullshit. There's a huge difference between Europe and Australia, Australia needs more people, give the kids training and a well paying job - end of problem. If you find some mad mullahs give 'em a lift to yemen. Drop 'em off halfway and let them swim the rest, no worries from me.  

There you go again Grey. You're inclined to agree with most of the article you say but the rest of your piece is a carefully constructed naysay to any kind of Europe-style problem arising here, despite what Sheridan has documented as the problems of Lakemba etc already.

We are not talking about tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. We are talking about 20, 30 years time when it will impinge on our grandchildren if we sdon't stop it infecting us now.
And it is an infection which no herbal remedies will cure once it has taken hold.

You are typical head-in-the-sand appeasement and it will all go away.
Well it won't.

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 3:23pm:

There you go again Grey. You're inclined to agree with most of the article you say but the rest of your piece is a carefully constructed naysay to any kind of Europe-style problem arising here, despite what Sheridan has documented as the problems of Lakemba etc already....  ...You are typical head-in-the-sand appeasement and it will all go away. Well it won't.

No! You're not listening. I said quite clealy that MultiCulturalism is wrong, I agree with Sheridan.

I think that there is a lot to be said for the way things were done in the fifties actually. And let me just say that we don't discuss solutions nearly enough. There are as many possible ways of doing things as there are people. Any problem is an opportunity to be creative and a good solution is a win win arradication of problematic situations for all concerned.

As I understand it, and I haven't studied it, in the fifties all immigrants went to a camp to be assessed processed and assigned to a place they were needed. Why on earth are there immigrant ghettoes in Sydney when the Pilbarra is crying out for people?

What Australia needs to do is have a vision for the future. We are extremely well placed to be a nation of considerable influence, a good influence. We get bogged down by "that's the way it's always done around here" thinking.

http://www.jeffbridges.com/because.html

You're doing everything but recognise there is a problem.
Well, is there a problem or not? And will it not get worse?

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 3:09pm:

Let me for the record say these things. And if I contradict myself, as Walt Whitman said. "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am legion, there are many of us living here."

This sounds very much like your are acknowledging the phenomenon of demon possession.

The United States of grey, perhaps ???

Sorry.

You are an atheist, and do not believe in spirit possession.
/sarc off






Quote:

I don't think that there's any reason to not accept 'economic refugees'. Things have to be extreme before people will leave their homelands for whatever reason. If it was a simple matter of 'being better off' Scotland and the North of England would have emptied into London decades ago and London would've emptied into Australia in the sixties. The vast majority of people will not leave no matter how bad things get.

No ???

Why can't, won't these people [who claim they only want a better life] stay, to 'nation build' their own homelands ???

And why shouldn't we expect them to ???

Especially when many of these 'economic refugees' exhibit extreme intolerance of our culture, and, when many of these 'economic refugees' exhibit criminal tendencies, which they justify, in our courts, by claiming that we [Australians] should 'accommodate' their nature, and their cultural 'difficulties'.






Quote:

Australia isn't served by damaging people psychologically before letting them out into the community. Nobody in their right mind would riot while waiting to get residency approval without feeling that this was the only way to be noticed enough to get anything happening at all before dieing of old age.

You said;

"Nobody in their right mind would riot while waiting to get residency approval..."

Exactly.


IMO, the truth is that ISLAM is a deceptive and violent philosophy, a cult, which creates a mental pathology, in those human beings who choose to embrace it.

That mental pathology which afflicts all good moslems, is so all encompassing, that all moslems deny any accountability for the consequences of their own choices.

ISLAM clearly teaches, inculcates, within the moslem psyche, that moslems are the victims of a SATANIC conspiracy against them, perpetrated by non-moslems.

ISLAM teaches, inculcates within moslems, a justification, to always place all blame for the consequences of moslem violent actions, upon non-moslems.

e.g.
Witness, the very latest moslem atrocity, in the UN compound, within Afghanistan.

Moslems will insist, that all blame for this murderous incident, lays with others, FOR PROVOKING MOSLEMS TO VIOLENCE.

Moslems never, ever, accept any responsibility, for their own wrong doing.

Always, moslems blame shift onto others, for every misfortune which befalls them [due to the own life choices].

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 3:02am:

Soren wrote on Apr 1st, 2011 at 9:42pm: Sneering and jeering is for morons.  You could not have your faith in reason without Christianity. You couldn't have your history, literature, philosophy, all your mental furniture without it. You wouln't be you without Christianity.   Don't believe in it. But when you sneer at it, when you jeer at it, you are the manic idiot sticking out his tongue at the mirror. Oh dear, you do have it bad don't you? I assure you Reason, History, Literature and joined up thinking all existed and would've continued to develop without religious interference. For instance neither spelt a miraculous natural hybrid discovered and cultivated near Jericho nor the subsequent further hybridization which occurred in Turkey 10,000 years ago to produce the wheat civilization is fed on needed the church. Neither did the wheel's, (and axles) inventor 3,500 years BCE, who managed to nut out the problems all on his/her own. Where does literature start ? The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' (2000 BCE) Or perhaps to the more poetic 16,000 years before that at Lascaux. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnSq0c7jM-A Ascribing human enlightenment to religion is just daft. The cart is pulling a dead horse up the mountain.

Your particular way of thinking and seeing is not based on Mesopotamian agriculture, the wheel or cave paintings.
It is the prouduct of the last 500 years of European civilisation. (that in turn of course was shaped by the previous 2500 years in very obvious and conscious ways.)
You could not think what you think without Christianity. Almost all of your rebellion against it is essentially based on Christian ethics. The church is mercilessly flogged not because it teaches Christian ethics but because it does not live up to it. Social justice is applied Christian ethics.  The very idea of equality is before the law (because off equality before god) is unthinkable outside Christianity.
All western political ideologies have developed out of engagement with Christianity. It is complete nonsense to pretend that it is now 'overcome' or somhow irrelevant. All non-western political stream have been the adaptations of Western ideas to local conditions.

Third world countries that were colonies once are full of resentment against the west beause their way of life has to adapt to Western ethics and they cannot cope with it. Aboriginese, Africans, Asian who resist Western ethics are failed people and  states. Japan and Korea are two examples of non western countries that have adapted consciously to the west keeping of their culture what they could. China is another, although it still carries the burden of a failed European idea (Marxism).

The Arabs are an excellent example of  being unable to adapt to Western ways, almost ex officio, because they recognise that western ways are Christian ways.

Being an atheist in a 'Christian' country is vastly different to being an atheist in a Muslim one. In the former, they let you live, for starters. So for an atheist like you to say that all religions are the same is nuttiness of the first order.

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 3:52pm:

You're doing everything but recognise there is a problem. Well, is there a problem or not? And will it not get worse?

It's implicit in my posts I recognise a problem. Most problems get worse unless they're attended to. Do you recognise that there might be a solution?

Oh yes there's a solution. Prevention.
Were you hoping I'd say a Final Solution?

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 3:58pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 3:52pm: You're doing everything but recognise there is a problem. Well, is there a problem or not? And will it not get worse? It's implicit in my posts I recognise a problem. Most problems get worse unless they're attended to. Do you recognise that there might be a solution?

Absolutely.


The problem....

ISLAM is a political tyranny, and ISLAM promotes, a vicious [un-reformable] violent political tyranny.

And, ISLAM will not change.



What must change, is how the West 'interacts' with moslems.

We, the West, must choose to separate ourselves from ISLAM, and from moslems.

Why so?

ISLAM is totally incompatible with Western ideals of democracy, freedom, justice.

Let moslems stew, in their own juices.

Many moslems would then see their error, and abandon ISLAM.

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 4:04pm:

Oh yes there's a solution. Prevention. Were you hoping I'd say a Final Solution?

Actually no, I didn't hope or expect that. Look if Australia banned all entry to Muslims, what would people call that? 'The cross Australia policy'? If all other Western countries are taking their share of Muslim refugees but Australia, the most underpopulated, underdeveloped, land mass on Earth, refuses. Does that look like a tenable position to you?

Quote:

Yadda - This sounds very much like your are acknowledging the phenomenon of demon possession.

:) Yes Yadda well spotted. As I said that was a quote originally by Walt Whitman who was dealing with a question accusing him of contradiction and also haveing a bit of fun with church doctrines at the same time.

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 4:12pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 4:04pm: Oh yes there's a solution. Prevention. Were you hoping I'd say a Final Solution? Actually no, I didn't hope or expect that. Look if Australia banned all entry to Muslims, what would people call that?

I would call it sanity.


In the face of a philosophy, which openly promotes views like this ---->

June 26, 2006
The roots of Islamism
".....Islamists believe in the re-ordering of society to secure total submission to a narrow, puritan and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam......
That cleansing process must be accomplished by suicidal violence, because, in the words of Islamism's most influential thinker, Sayyid Qutb, "the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood.".....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_gove/article679544.ece


And this, from the Koran

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. "
Koran 9.111

v. 9.111, in its guarantee of paradise to those who "fight in His cause, and slay and are slain" for Allah, is clearly encouraging the martyrdom of moslems, in 'the Cause of Allah'.
Their reward, is paradise.
Suicide bombing, anyone?

Oh look I reached 100 and became a full member. Now I can relax, I hated being a junior  :)

Quote:

In the face of a philosophy, which openly promotes views this this ---->

May the gods help us if we are all held to account for the thoughts and actions of the most extreme members of our communities.

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 4:25pm:

Quote: In the face of a philosophy, which openly promotes views this this ----> May the gods help us if we are all held to account for the thoughts and actions of the most extreme members of our communities.

But those are not the thoughts and actions of the most extreme members of moslem communities.

The are the thoughts and actions of good moslems.

All good moslems hold such views, and are motivated, by such views.

To not be so motivated, means that they themselves are declaring their own apostasy [rebellion against Allah], and that they are not true moslems.


There are numerous verses in the Koran, which castigate and threaten, those moslems [those moslem 'hypocrites'], who abandon their loyalty to Allah.





+++


In this thread, Grey made the claim....

Quote:

"My only interest is in finding true things."

You are a liar Grey.

You clearly refuse to 'face up to' objective truth, relating to moslems, and ISLAM.

You are averse to truth.

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 4:20pm:

Oh look I reached 100 and became a full member. Now I can relax, I hated being a junior  :)

Congrats - though I'm not sure that you should be too happy about the connotations that go with being known as a "full member"...

;)

hi,
went down the road from my house to burwood, nsw, road last night.
as i walked my usual route, i could hear arabic music - not the usual.
hmmmmmm - i thought - hashish pipes?
not a bad thing.
walking further down, i realised it (the sound) was coming from Sidnee's  cafe.
woaaa!
as i got closer, i was struck with just how beautiful is music was/is.
walking thru the cafe, i was tempted to stay. unusual. to say the least.
BUT, certain tables of ppl caught my eye, and, guess wot! they welcomed me!!!!!
i just had to do the thumbs up thing.  the ladies were dressed head to toe, but it DID NOT STOP THEM from being very friendly.
sometimes, the hottest have the coolest exterior.
Sidnees's Cafe, i salute you. you will, if given the chance, bridge a grap in social
relations here in Burwood.
we need lotz more of this integrity if Australia is to survive.
they are willing, as i'm willing.
j.

these are just normal ppl, having fun.
at least they know how to.
btw, i'm anglo, and 62 years old.
and i'm totally sick of the gov'ts this fine country is wearing nowadays.
this is really a dictatorship.

Saw some shadowy figures outside the front of my house, throw something at a house behind another. The shadowy figures eventually moved away and vanished. From out of that house a small troop of people came down to the corner of the merging street. They were Lebs (you can tell different races by how they 'move' or carry themselves sometimes.) and one had a Cricket bat.
I stood out the front of my yard, shirtless and defiant in the cold. The troop of Lebs saw me standing there in the dark of night. I stood like Yul Brynner. They weren't too sure of what to make of me and wether I was to blame for the projectile. They moved away, came back a bit ...unsure - before 'one' Lebs moved forward and followed distantly by one other, while the rest moved back to the house.
See, I thought, they can break ranks and individualise to some extent.I eventually told the Lebs what I knew and saw and we left it at that with them thanking me. In essence, it didn't matter if they were Lebs or not. They were wronged. It didn't matter if they acted as a group or as an individual. They were wronged at 2am in the night.

cheers,
;)

The Gospel according to Yadda

     “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

Unless the others are Muslims.

      “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Mum, not you Mu..PUT IT DOWN.

“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.”

But unto Muslims say what you like, and use capitals often.

"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for "of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Kick the little Muslim brats away Urrgh.

"For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me. 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'"

I was a Muslim, fill my mouth with dust and kick my sorry arse.

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers."

If your brother is a muslim, hammer the log into his ear.

Quote:

Equitist - Congrats - though I'm not sure that you should be too happy about the connotations that go with being known as a "full member"...

:) Thanks Equitist, yes you're right, I must press on for the more fitting 'senior'.

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 1:49pm:

My only interest is in finding true things.

+++





Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 4:59pm:

The Gospel according to Yadda      “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Unless the others are Muslims.       “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” Mum, not you Mu..PUT IT DOWN. “The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.” But unto Muslims say what you like, and use capitals often. "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for "of such is the kingdom of heaven." Kick the little Muslim brats away Urrgh. "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me. 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'" I was a Muslim, fill my mouth with dust and kick my sorry arse. "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers." If your brother is a muslim, hammer the log into his ear.

Grey,

You spit on truth.

And why?

Why is truth something which you cannot confront ?

Why is truth something which you refuse to confront ?






Grey,

Tell me my error.

But you place a burden upon me, but it is not mine, i have no truck with what you accuse me of.

You accuse me, suggesting that i am intolerant, and hate-filled, ONLY because i speak truthfully.

Your accusations against me, are just more of the same.

Just another lie, which you have embraced.

Tell me my error, but don't [falsely] play the champion of virtue.








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Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Psalms 97:10
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:...

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Amos 5:15
Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate:...

Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 15:9
The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Grey, I admire your patience - you're gonna need it to get to that 250 threshold if you continue to post on this thread...

;)

Grey revelations 1:1

If it all gets a bit fervorish, have a cup of tea and a nice lie down.

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 6:20pm:

Grey revelations 1:1 If it all gets a bit fervorish, have a cup of tea and a nice lie down.

Yadda Revelation 21:7


Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Seems to me that belief systems are a big burden, especially when you have to quote dogma.  I don't know the dogma, so I have to consider that it may be being inaccurately quoted, which, presumably could make the quotations LIES.  

I suppose that anyone who can't offer quantitative proof of everything that they claim is TRUTH is just delusional.  Religion sure attracts a lot of those people.  If they weren't scary, they'd be funnier.

Quote:

The worst thing that is being said here is that Muslims are all the same.

But you are the only one saying that Grey. It is your strawman. We have put up detailed and specific ideas and you have completely ignored them in favour of attacking your own generalisations.


Quote:

Australia needs more people, give the kids training and a well paying job - end of problem.

Just like in London?


Quote:

If you find some mad mullahs give 'em a lift to yemen. Drop 'em off halfway and let them swim the rest, no worries from me.

So how many do you think are mad? Do you know any that aren't mad?


Quote:

I think that there is a lot to be said for the way things were done in the fifties actually. And let me just say that we don't discuss solutions nearly enough.

Grey I have had great difficulty getting you to even acknowledge that people have suggested solutions. So why don't you take the lead?


Quote:

If all other Western countries are taking their share of Muslim refugees but Australia, the most underpopulated, underdeveloped, land mass on Earth, refuses. Does that look like a tenable position to you?

I have asked Abu several times whether the policy I suggest is fair to Muslims. He is yet to claim it is not fair.

Quote:

8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It does sound picturesque, would the fishing be any good?

Welcome SpinyMendoza, 'New' isn't so bad, after you've clocked up a few they call you 'junior'.

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 7:39pm:

But you are the only one saying that Grey. It is your strawman. We have put up detailed and specific ideas and you have completely ignored them in favour of attacking your own generalisations.

I think you must have your threads confused Free, I'm pretty sure after recapping quickly that the only solution proposed on your side of the road is to ban Muslims from the country.


Quote:

Just like in London?

Britain is suffering enormous economic difficulties and overcrowding of couse this has its concomitant social problems.


Quote:

So how many (mullahs) do you think are mad? Do you know any that aren't mad?

Well frankly no, but then that applies to the priestly class across the board IMO. Let's just confine the swim to 'dangerously mad'.


Quote:

[quote]I think that there is a lot to be said for the way things were done in the fifties actually. And let me just say that we don't discuss solutions nearly enough.

Grey I have had great difficulty getting you to even acknowledge that people have suggested solutions. So why don't you take the lead?[/quote]

Who me!!?  :D I'm an Anarchist, I don't do leadership, but I will put up some proposals if you like.



Quote:

[quote]If all other Western countries are taking their share of Muslim refugees but Australia, the most underpopulated, underdeveloped, land mass on Earth, refuses. Does that look like a tenable position to you?

I have asked Abu several times whether the policy I suggest is fair to Muslims. He is yet to claim it is not fair.[/quote][/quote]

You have a policy? Okay dig it out Free, let's have a look  :)

Quote:

I think you must have your threads confused Free, I'm pretty sure after recapping quickly that the only solution proposed on your side of the road is to ban Muslims from the country.

freediver wrote on Mar 24^th, 2011 at 7:32pm:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/sustainability-party/immigration.html

Quote:

Britain is suffering enormous economic difficulties and overcrowding of couse this has its concomitant social problems.

I was referring to this comment:


Quote:

Australia needs more people, give the kids training and a well paying job - end of problem.

As the Londan example demonstrates, this is simply not true. Or do you suggest that we solve every economic problem we have in order to stop Muslims blowing up busses?


Quote:

Well frankly no, but then that applies to the priestly class across the board IMO. Let's just confine the swim to 'dangerously mad'.

I think anyone who wants to dismantle democracy and personal freedom is dangerously mad. Even if they are sane they are dangerous. There are few groups where this mindset is a majority, but I suspect Islam is one of them.


Quote:

You have a policy? Okay dig it out Free, let's have a look

freediver wrote on Mar 24^th, 2011 at 7:32pm:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/sustainability-party/immigration.html

Quote:

Likewise, people who oppose freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the fundamental liberties we take for granted should be barred from entering this country. This policy would effectively screen out the problems of religious extremism that many of our politicians have been commenting on lately, without resorting to religious or racial discrimination, without throwing multiculturalism out the window and without the cringeworthy jingoism of some of our ‘character’ politicians. There is no need to refer to Australian history or Australian values. Democracy and freedom are universal values. Any values that are unique to Australia are probably rejected by other societies for good reason.

That's precisley what I've been advocating all along FreeDiver. But it appears you have changed your mind.

Grey wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 10:22pm:

Quote: Likewise, people who oppose freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the fundamental liberties we take for granted should be barred from entering this country. This policy would effectively screen out the problems of religious extremism that many of our politicians have been commenting on lately, without resorting to religious or racial discrimination, without throwing multiculturalism out the window and without the cringeworthy jingoism of some of our ‘character’ politicians. There is no need to refer to Australian history or Australian values. Democracy and freedom are universal values. Any values that are unique to Australia are probably rejected by other societies for good reason. That's precisley what I've been advocating all along FreeDiver. But it appears you have changed your mind.

Why do people want to come to this country if no refernce is to be made to its values, history, characteristics? Why should they be admitted?  On what grounds do they make their claims to come to this country? What values require that they be admitted to this country? Aren't they making their claims on the basis of the history and values of this country?


SO why would you two jokers advocate the irrelevance of these values?

Fair go Soren, lighten up on the new chums.

If anyone asked me to reveal IF I am an extremist, and I was one, and the prize for lying was great enough, I'd lie.  I chortle at this concept that you can SCREEN out extremists, like blowing the chaff off grain.  Certainly an anarchist knows that control is an illusion.  Screening is a silly political sham.

I had this other smile when, I think it was FREEDIVER asked if economic problems should be solved for the sake of admitting some... anyone.  Doesn't matter who.  The crux of the biscuit is SHOULD ECONOMIC PROBLEMS BE SOLVED?  Can they be?  If they can be, How can they be?  We wonder, IS there ENOUGH to go around?  hmmm.  I suppose that depends on who you ask, doesn't it?

Who do you want to allow to immigrate, pals?  Billionaires?  Millionaires?  Thousandaires?  Christians?  Jews?  Taoists?  People with curly hair, or straight?  Brown eyes, or blue?  

You can pretend that you have a country with a set of values, but you don't.  You have a rule book, but most of us don't worry too much about our legal positions as we go through our days, weeks, months, lives.  Sometimes we know that we have been a little criminal, and we tell a pal, but we don't step up for punishment, and our pals don't suggest that we do, either.

Britains are muttering, screaming, whingeing and crying over the arrival of Poles who "live on the dole" or don't do good work, or pick their noses in public, or something.  It's wonderful having easy targets for discontent, who are not elected.

Wait!  Who said what about DISMANTLING democracy and attacking personal freedoms?  Sounds like G.W. Bush-speak, to me.  Let's all try to remember that democracy is an ACTIVE and evolving state/State.  It's political, not religious.  You don't HAVE to let religion into political discussions.  If you do, you are corrupting the politics.

aintcha?

Soren, Democracy is not a value, universal or otherwise.  Freedom is not a value, either.  I tend to think that when we get confused about what's at stake, we get worried about things we never had, or couldn't lose.  

Have you ever considered the common phrase, Loss of life?  You can't LOSE life.  Oh, there's this other one, Everyone deserves a life.  Everyone who ever lives, even for a nano-second has one.  Life is essentially the culmination of one's past, as there was never a guarantee of anything more, just an assumption, or a hope.

When you bring up VALUES you are entering philosophical territory.  It's nice to know that there is some.  Sometimes I get worried when I can't see the EXIT sign.

Grey:


Quote:

But it appears you have changed your mind.

How so?

Soren:


Quote:

SO why would you two jokers advocate the irrelevance of these values?

You don't think democracy and personal freedom are important values? Do you think we left some out? Meat pies perhaps?

Spiny:


Quote:

If anyone asked me to reveal IF I am an extremist, and I was one, and the prize for lying was great enough, I'd lie.  I chortle at this concept that you can SCREEN out extremists, like blowing the chaff off grain.  Certainly an anarchist knows that control is an illusion.  Screening is a silly political sham.

So we should open the door to welcome rapists, murderers, thieves etc because they might sneak in anyway?


Quote:

Wait!  Who said what about DISMANTLING democracy and attacking personal freedoms?  Sounds like G.W. Bush-speak, to me.

I can refer you to quotes from muslims right here on this forum if it would help.


Quote:

Let's all try to remember that democracy is an ACTIVE and evolving state/State.  It's political, not religious.  You don't HAVE to let religion into political discussions.  If you do, you are corrupting the politics.

Muslims like to let religion dictate their politics. In fact they don't see any distinction between them


Quote:

Soren, Democracy is not a value, universal or otherwise.  Freedom is not a value, either.  I tend to think that when we get confused about what's at stake, we get worried about things we never had, or couldn't lose.

Are you suggesting we have never had democracy or freedom?

Maybe Australia doesn't want 'Redneck' Moslems in Australia?
Maybe Australia wants 'Gay' Moslems?
While the 'Wanker' Moslems go to the Occidental region and the 'Yobbo' Moslems go to Europe??

We all know that 'Gay' Australians all go to North America ;D

ay Australians go to North America because they figure they should be beloved for their accents?

I want to know how a country would go about "Welcoming" rapists, murderers and thieves.  I might have added that last category.  I think that the only way to WELCOME those people is to invite an ARMY.  Personally, I think that inviting armies is not a good idea.  I've never travelled and gotten into a government part of an airport and seen big banners welcoming criminals.  I think that the flowers and fancy booze welcomes are mostly reserved for corporate arrivals, and members of relic monarchies.  Those welcomes don't have anything to do with US, and we only pay for them.

FREEDIVER, I'm implying a lot more than I'm saying, in an attempt to avoid being nasty and over-bearing.  You can check back and see that I said democracy and freedom are not VALUES.  Now, wait a second, I didn't say you don't value those things, but they are not "Universal Shared Values".  And they REALLY AREN'T if they are specific to AUSTRALIA.  

Everyone's mother says that they are special and unique, but that's just what mothers say.  It's best to let it go.

You have freedom.  Everyone does.  You may not exercise it, because you believe that you welcome rapists and murders, but you make decisions about the freedoms you exercise, because nobody would stop you, or could stop you, if you decided to take a dump in the dairy aisle in the market.  And, you would probably have CONSEQUENCES, but those would only attempt to discourage further executions of your freedom.  I don't have to give you permission.  You are free to choose.  

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 8:59am:

Maybe Australia doesn't want 'Redneck' Moslems in Australia? Maybe Australia wants 'Gay' Moslems? While the 'Wanker' Moslems go to the Occidental region and the 'Yobbo' Moslems go to Europe?? We all know that 'Gay' Australians all go to North America ;D

That was pretty cute.  I like it.  

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 5:44am:

Wait!  Who said what about DISMANTLING democracy and attacking personal freedoms?  Sounds like G.W. Bush-speak, to me.  Let's all try to remember that democracy is an ACTIVE and evolving state/State.  It's political, not religious.  You don't HAVE to let religion into political discussions.  If you do, you are corrupting the politics. aintcha?

Siddiq Conlon from Sharia 4 Australia wants to replace democracy with Islamic rule.

"One day Australia will be ruled by Sharia,no doubt" he declares."That is why non muslims are worried,because they know one day they wont be able to drink their beer,they wont be able to eat pork and they wont be able to do their homosexual acts (what about muslims Smacking little boys- google bacha bazi,is having sex with little boys not considered homosexual in Islam?) because one day they know they will be controlled".
Read more from Siddiq here  www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/full-bred-aussie-with-a-longing-for-sharia-law/story-e6frg6z6-1225991941740

Hizb-ut-Tahrir  have also called for sharia law in Australia.
From their website-
"Hizb ut tahrir is a POLITICAL party whose ideology is Islam,so politics is its work and Islam is its ideology.
Hizb ut tahrir is a political group and not a priestly one."
Go have a look at their website  what i cited above comes from the about section in the bottom right hand of the page  www.hizb-australia.org

It appears Abu Rashid the moderator from the Islam section supports sharia law for Australia going by his comments on Siddiq Conlon in the aussiemuslims forum.
This is what abu said about sharia law-
"Yes we must deliever the message about the oneness of Allah,but also we need to promote and make PROPAGANDA for sharia"
"We need to promote Islam as a viable way of life,and a solution to the problems the world faces.Merely restricting our dawah (ganda) to speaking about the oneness of Allah does not present the full picture of Islam,and actually risks us falling into limiting Islam to becoming just a spiritual system like the jews and christians"
"In short we should not retract from promoting the political aspects of Islam,we should excel more in it,but we just need to do it in a very targeted and strategic manner"
Read Abu's comments here  www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showpost.php?p=484299&postcount=33


Islam is more than just a religion it is Political as well there is no separation of mosque and state with Islam.

If muslims want to make Islam political then we should engage them on all aspects of Islam just like we do with every other political parties policies,why should Islam be exempt from scruitiny if they want to make their belief political?

thanks Spiny Mendoza. I like to think I'm mentally ambidextrous.


Isn't it part of Australian History that the British dumped its worthless (criminals, etc) here, just like the West Africans sold off their worthless into Slavery to the Arabs and later the Americas??
So why other 'such people' are presented here (under the all-seeing Eye of Television)...

[/size] PERSONAL FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY!

[size=11] Conceptually, those two things don't go together.  Democracy implies loss of autocracy to the rule of a majority.  Worse, it can mean a perceived majority, or a to a wacky representative.  

aww, that's not pretty!

Jasignature, If you go all the way back to who got dumped, and where they were dumped, and then what happened after that, you begin to wonder why people love little old ladies in big mansions with hats that cost more than I get in a month.  And you REALLY have to smile at National Pride junk, and, then, at political correctness and "diversity" crap, too.  It's all marketing, isn't it?  What did we fall for, today?

Thanks Baron. I have asked Abu about it.


Quote:

I want to know how a country would go about "Welcoming" rapists, murderers and thieves.

By letting them immigrate.


Quote:

FREEDIVER, I'm implying a lot more than I'm saying, in an attempt to avoid being nasty and over-bearing.  You can check back and see that I said democracy and freedom are not VALUES.  Now, wait a second, I didn't say you don't value those things, but they are not "Universal Shared Values".

Fair enough. If they were universal, we wouldn't have to worry about immigrants trying to destroy our democracy and freedom. But they are not unique to Australia, or 'the west'.


Quote:

Democracy implies loss of autocracy to the rule of a majority.

Are you trying to say this is a bad thing?

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 8:44am:

Grey: Quote: But it appears you have changed your mind. How so?

Quote:

Likewise, people who oppose freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the fundamental liberties we take for granted should be barred from entering this country. This policy would effectively screen out the problems of religious extremism that many of our politicians have been commenting on lately, without resorting to religious or racial discrimination, without throwing multiculturalism out the window and without the cringeworthy jingoism of some of our ‘character’ politicians. There is no need to refer to Australian history or Australian values. Democracy and freedom are universal values. Any values that are unique to Australia are probably rejected by other societies for good reason.

I don't see any mention of Muslim or Islam there. I do see a rejection of 'Jingoism'.

Let me spell it out. We can discuss comparative religion. We can talk about the merits and otherwise of Sharia Law and Islam. They are generic terms that can be discussed in general ways. Likewise we can discuss Sunni, Catholicism, Orthodox Judaism, C of E., and Shia. We can discuss obesity, We can say that there are more obese people in Australia than anywhere else. But we can't say the fattest person on Earth is Australian or the thinnest is Ethiopean, because it aint necessarily so.

We can say Islam is the least progressive and liberal of the Abrahamic religions. That's a discussion by the way. It's arguable that in some ways it's more liberal than the others. But it's okay to talk about that. It's not okay to say all Muslims are the same and look what this cleric said, they're all like that. You cant say everybody who wants to immigrate to Australia should be treated on their merits as individuals except for Muslims. 2 billion Muslims are all hardliners and there isn't a progressive or liberal amongst them. Becauase when you talk like that you're talking like a smacking Nazi not an Australian.  

Except we know that if & when they get to a critical mass here there will be big trouble.
Only a blind fool would be in denial about that.

I'm saying that I think that you consider that you have special rights to withhold democracy and freedoms, at will, and that indicates to me that you don't mean DEMOCRACY and you don't MEAN freedom, but you might have some kind of ....hehehe.... unique sense of entitlement goin' on in your skull.  

I'm getting hung up on this notion that you can refuse entry to murderers and rapists.  Maybe you mean that you can refuse it to convicted murderers and rapists and thieves.  I add thieves because that is a liberal and inclusive thing to do.  You don't think that all murderers, rapists and thieves are CONVICTED, do you?  And you must not think that all convictions are RIGHTEOUS, do you?  

Can you tell a murderer, rapist and/or thief by appearance?  By profiling?  By magic devination? Why do you limit access to those people and not to pornographers or polygamists?

Quote:

Spiny - If anyone asked me to reveal IF I am an extremist, and I was one, and the prize for lying was great enough, I'd lie.  I chortle at this concept that you can SCREEN out extremists, like blowing the chaff off grain.  Certainly an anarchist knows that control is an illusion.

Yeah true enough, only don't hold me to an Anarchist party line. I'm the sort of Anarchist who's pragmatic on occasion, sometimes even Conservative. I might believe that money has outlived its usefulness and a globalised world should have a globalised citizenship; but I don't believe in scaring the children unnecessarily. I believe that Anarchism involves consensus amongst all of a communities reasonable people.

As far as screening goes, yes people can lie. But the 'screening' process gets the lie on paper. I believe in quickly giving all immigrants provisional citizenship for five years and kicking out ratbags whose aim and actions is to undermine the society they 'pretended' to want to join.

Quote:

But the 'screening' process gets the lie on paper.

Let me be clear about this. I mean all immigrants to a community can and should be asked to sign an agreement. Anarchists should always be willing to agree.

If a majority develops, of any sort, there will be a lot of people working against democratic principles.  I didn't say values.  

You can't pretend to VALUE freedom of RELIGION and then turn around and say, 'Cept for THAT one, right over there!  I understand the temptation to intolerance, particularly when it comes to religion.  I'm faithless, and I have NO patience for anyone's religion, and if I could wave my hand and wipe it out of all skulls, I would, in a hot second, with no excuses or exceptions.  I'd say it's an improvement, like THUMBS.

I rarely utter this secret notion, of mine, that all people who harbour religion are hopelessly stupid.  I never say it, and you don't know it. ;D

SIGN AN AGREEMENT?  Should they be feeling honest and truthful when they do that, bozo?

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 1:53pm:

SIGN AN AGREEMENT?  Should they be feeling honest and truthful when they do that, bozo?

Yes they should, but the point is that if they weren't, it is on paper and they can be held to account. - dozy  ;)

Quote:

We can say Islam is the least progressive and liberal of the Abrahamic religions. That's a discussion by the way. It's arguable that in some ways it's more liberal than the others. But it's okay to talk about that. It's not okay to say all Muslims are the same and look what this cleric said, they're all like that. You cant say everybody who wants to immigrate to Australia should be treated on their merits as individuals except for Muslims. 2 billion Muslims are all hardliners and there isn't a progressive or liberal amongst them. Becauase when you talk like that you're talking like a smacking Nazi not an Australian.

Like I said, you are the only one here talking like that.


Quote:

I'm saying that I think that you consider that you have special rights to withhold democracy and freedoms, at will,

What makes you think that?


Quote:

Can you tell a murderer, rapist and/or thief by appearance?  By profiling?  By magic devination? Why do you limit access to those people and not to pornographers or polygamists?

I expect immigration to do their best to sort it out. I don't expect them to be infallible. I got Abu and Malik to reveal what they really think easily enough, even though I didn't know what I was looking for at the time. And that is in a situation where they have no compulsion to answer.

Quote:

Like I said, you are the only one here talking like that.

'Get away' and 'come off it' and ' what the hell you talking bout?' ;D

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 2:21pm:

Quote: We can say Islam is the least progressive and liberal of the Abrahamic religions. That's a discussion by the way. It's arguable that in some ways it's more liberal than the others. But it's okay to talk about that. It's not okay to say all Muslims are the same and look what this cleric said, they're all like that. You cant say everybody who wants to immigrate to Australia should be treated on their merits as individuals except for Muslims. 2 billion Muslims are all hardliners and there isn't a progressive or liberal amongst them. Becauase when you talk like that you're talking like a smacking Nazi not an Australian.   Like I said, you are the only one here talking like that. [quote]I'm saying that I think that you consider that you have special rights to withhold democracy and freedoms, at will,

What makes you think that?


Quote:

Can you tell a murderer, rapist and/or thief by appearance?  By profiling?  By magic devination? Why do you limit access to those people and not to pornographers or polygamists?

I expect immigration to do their best to sort it out. I don't expect them to be infallible. I got Abu and Malik to reveal what they really think easily enough, even though I didn't know what I was looking for at the time. And that is in a situation where they have no compulsion to answer.[/quote]

Gentlemen, just because someone looks like a Nazi, sounds like a Nazi, and gives you the secret Nazi handshake, doesn't mean that he has gas chamber dreams in his bathroom.  

I want to  about the special abilities of immigration officers for sorting people for admittance.  What are their MEANS of detection?  Freediver, why do you have faith that immigration authorities are inherently fair, if they are not infallible?  I think that they better be infallible.  Is that too much to ask of people who are making life changing judgements of other folks?

Say, remember when Australia used rape as a political tool on the aboriginals?  I guess that was okay, huh?  And that was AFTER criminals were welcomed to Australia, too.  I'm starting to understand your concerns.  

Grey, you anarchal signature monitor.  Who's going to extort those immigrants to sign something?  YOU?  You don't believe that!  You'd forget the pen.  You'd use the paper for paper darts.  And what does that paper SAY?  "I'll be nice if you let me stay"?  or, "I'll obey all the non-rules"?  

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 3:24pm:

Grey, you anarchal signature monitor.  Who's going to extort those immigrants to sign something?  YOU?  You don't believe that!  You'd forget the pen.  You'd use the paper for paper darts.  And what does that paper SAY?  "I'll be nice if you let me stay"?  or, "I'll obey all the non-rules"?

;D You throw "Control is an illusion" at me. I accept that - to a point. It doesn't stop me weeding the veg. patch. It doesn't stop me trying to control who comes into my house. I think that multiculturalism is an illusion, because it implies what it ought not to imply, and it tries to control what ought to be an organic process. But we have borders, control points, to our countries, as we do to our houses. It's not unreasonable, at this stage of human development, to use them.

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I want to  about the special abilities of immigration officers for sorting people for admittance.  What are their MEANS of detection?  Freediver, why do you have faith that immigration authorities are inherently fair, if they are not infallible?  I think that they better be infallible.  Is that too much to ask of people who are making life changing judgements of other folks?

It's called doing their job. Like I said, I do not expect the system to be foolproof. I just expect them to do what they can. I expect them to use the same strategies they use to keep out rapists and murderers. Although in this case there is the added advantage that people are more likely to talk themselves out of a chance, so there would be a bigger focus on interview techniques - you know, the 'special abilities' that employers have to keep loonies out of the office. If they have to lie through their teeth, then so be it. At least they will know from the start that their views are not welcome here. I for one would not be keen to lie my way into a country that has the opposite view to me on things like democracy and personal freedom and forces me to not only give up those things, but to say that I want to give them up. In my opinion, 90% of the benefit will come from merely taking a stand. Another big benefit is that we can then easily send home the 'hate speech clerics'.

Or, as Grey put it:
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You throw "Control is an illusion" at me. I accept that - to a point. It doesn't stop me weeding the veg. patch. It doesn't stop me trying to control who comes into my house.

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Say, remember when Australia used rape as a political tool on the aboriginals?  I guess that was okay, huh?  And that was AFTER criminals were welcomed to Australia, too.  I'm starting to understand your concerns.

Are you suggesting that because of our history we should welcome rapists and murderers? If not, what is your point?

I think that you could accept that all Brits are not rapists and murderers.  I see that you are only saying that immigration agents should just do their jobs.  That's not advocating new policy.  

It is advocating new policy if their jobs do not currently include weeding out applicants who are fundamentally opposed to democracy and freedom. I'm pretty sure it is part of their job description to try to keep out Nazis etc. I don't see how this will fundamentally challenge the methods available to them. I'm not even sure why the methods are suddenly being made an issue.

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I'm pretty sure it is part of their job description to try to keep out Nazis

Anecdotal evidence suggests they didn't do a great job vetting the South African diaspora.

Freediver, the methods are fundamentally at issue when you say that you want them to do a good job.  Consider any job that you want to be done well.  If you know nothing about the process do you automatically accept that you are benefitting from it, and that, in this specific case, that you are safer BECAUSE of it?  Yikes!  That's a statement of FAITH.  

Well, that's okay.  You have faith that the water that comes out of the tap is potable, and the guys at immigration are going to try to weed out murderers and rapists and send them off to countries which will welcome them, and for their own good, too.   You aren't going to have concerns about any of that, and why should you?  

There's nothing inherently racist about not welcoming murderers and rapists.  I think that there's something quite childlike and trusting in the expression of faith that they can be sorted out, but I like children, as long as they are clean and don't touch things without permission.

I understand that children are fearful, and that they hold fears that are purposely taught to them.  That's why nightlights sell.  There are times when I have to fight an impulse to check under the bed for Mormons and astrologers.  We all got some of those buttons.

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 11:58am:

Islam is more than just a religion it is Political as well there is no separation of mosque and state with Islam. If muslims want to make Islam political then we should engage them on all aspects of Islam just like we do with every other political parties policies, why should Islam be exempt from scruitiny if they want to make their belief political?

Exactly so.