The problem with Islam is not the clothes that Muslims wear, but that it systematically denies people the right to choose for themselves what to wear.

What makes western society better is not the bikini. Nor is it that we reserve face coverings for a limited number of situations like weddings, children's parties, fund raising, cocktail parties, motorbikes, superheroes, advertising chicken burgers, skiing, sports mascots, halloween, robbing banks, theme park employees, scuba diving, keeping bees, ultra-conservative women, plays, funerals, breaking down social barriers, women who should not have sent in a nude photo, or simply looking cool by hiding your gaze behind sunnies and a low brim. The notion that showing your face in public is some kind of requirement in our society is bogus and was only invented in response to the burqa debate.

What makes our society better is simply that we are free to choose for ourselves.

Attempts to ban the burqa completely miss both of these points. It mistakes the symptoms of Islam's problems for the cause. It mistakes how we express our freedom for that freedom. It blames and punishes the victim. It makes our society more like Islam, not less. Instead of making sure that vulnerable women in our society are not coerced into dressing the way other people want, some would coerce them into immitating our expression of freedom so that they don't make us feel uncomfortable.

The Australian government recently put out a successful advertising campaign against domestic violence and abusive relationships. One of the signs of abuse it highlighted was trying to control what women wear. This campaign was successful in confronting the public with some of the more insidious ways that abusive partners try to control their spouse. This would no doubt apply to a Muslim couple where the man pressures the woman to wear certain clothes or refrain from wearing clothes that expose her body. The advertising campaign represents the rational path for our society to handle situations where vulnerable women are forced to wear the burqa or anything else. It cuts to the heart of our volues as a society. However, it also applies to people who try to deny women the right to choose conservative clothes. Like it or not, some women do choose to cover their face for their own reasons. Forcing these women against their will to expose any part of their body is not the sign of a progressive society. It is more than a sign of abuse. It is a vulgar abuse of power.

Freedom only means something if it applies to things you don't like. If people are only free to choose clothes that meet your approval, they are not free at all. We cannot deny people the right to choose what to wear without denying it to ourselves. It is important that we protect the right of Muslim women to choose what to wear, but it is equally important that we prevent our own government from telling people what they can and cannot wear in public.

<<Like it or not, some women do choose to cover their face for their own reasons. Forcing these women against their will to expose any part of their body is not the sign of a progressive society. It is more than a sign of abuse. It is a vulgar abuse of power.>>

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There are a few Australian born and bred women who come into the store where I work, that have converted or become Muslim. They cover their body and face pretty well. I believe they choose to dress this way, because their husbands appear to be Aussie too, so I doubt they would be forced or coerced into this style of dress.

Who do we think we are that we can tell an individual how to dress?

The burqa is not represenative of Islam, it's representative of islamofascism. People should enter our community who approve of its values and not because they want to undermine them. It's not 'tolerant' to allow representaives of fascism to wear their uniforms, it's stupid and weak. No woman in all human history has ever chosen to 'preserve their modesty' by wearing a burqa. Some choose it because they're idiotic enough to adopt it as a symbol of dissent. I support the 100 women coerced to wear the burqa by the extreme patriarchy of their society and don't much care about the oddballs who'd give away their freedoms by joining it.

http://www.habeeb.com/images/lebanon.photos/i.love.beirut.demonstration.jpg

Ive been to enough Muslim countries to know that they dress the same as anyone else.
The extremes such as the Burqa have more to do with ancient cultural practices than mainstream modern Muslims.
The Saudis for example are a repressive dictatorship that repress women because they are extremists..not because they are Muslims even though that may be their excuse.

Women should never be forced to wear the Burqa and nor should they ever be forced not to wear it. Like all things it should always be up to the individual  :)

adelcrow wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:01am:

The extremes such as the Burqa have more to do with ancient cultural practices than mainstream modern Muslims. The Saudis for example are a repressive dictatorship that repress women because they are extremists..not because they are Muslims even though that may be their excuse.

One of the 5 pillars of Islam is Hajj.
You make a pilgrimage to mecca to see a rock in a vagina and throw some rocks at satan.

Islam came from Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia one of the 5 pillars of Islam requires you to visit Saudi Arabia.

The Burka/niqab is from Islamic culture.
The muslim council of Britain said that not covering the face is a shortcoming and suggested that any muslims who advocate being uncovered could be guilty of rejecting Islam.
If you reject Islam as a muslim you are considered an apostate which carries the death penalty.
You cant pick and choose which parts of Islam to follow this is Islam not christianity the Quran is very clear with this.
www.quran.com/2/85
Read what the muslim council of britain had to say about those apostates who reject the niqab here
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8455955/Muslim-Council-women-cannot-debate-wearing-veil.html
Do you like how the men in Islam say women cannot debate wearing the veil?

Islam is a form of sexual apartheid for women you could search for ex muslim women like Maryam Namazie,Wafa Sultan,Aayan hirsi Ali,Noni Darwiche just to name a few and hear from them how Islam oppresses women.
Some ex muslim women have worked on Wiki Islam you could see what they say here-
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Women

If you looked at the above links it is clear women are under pressure from men to cover their faces lets see what a online cleric says about the niqab-
A woman says her husband will divorce her if she does not wear the niqab....
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20910/niqab

You could also go to the forum at The Council Of Ex Muslims and ask the women there about the lack of womens rights in Islam.www.councilofexmuslims.com

Very well said FreeDiver.
Maybe the Burqa is slowly changing. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that the look/fashion of the Geisha of Nippon was focused upon.

I believe that such 'fashions' tend to be ultra-Conservative and I don't think there is anything wrong with that, especially if it is the female who chooses to do so. I know there are some insecure men who think they know what fashion best suits women, just as women try to change the way men dress too.
I think Nuns are both casual in their attire informally, and put the robe and Habit on when upon Formal occassions (like going to the Catholic Club here in Campbelltown ;D).

I tend to think 'Western' Fashions have really evolved from the Occidental quarter and the Music Industry that comes with it. No offence, but Musicians have gotta be the most pathetically attired people on the planet ...but they sound way  8-).

Also, I think the fashions at the Melbourne Cup are like watching skanks on champers dressed as the Queen Mother. :P Erk!

I think we have a focus upon Moslems who come under the title of "Breeders", especially in their region of originality - the Middle-East.
Rather than a focus upon Moslems who come under the title of "Achievers."

Are there Moslem Achievers?
Well I tend to think that Moslem Males will have their 'future' in a positive way, here in Australia (and Samerica) where as the females might find more empowerment in the African and Occidental regions.
So soon we will see Moslem men progress into a state of Individuality, let alone for their Industry itself.

I passed a Moslem couple at the Camden Show not so long ago, their brown (bronzed aussie) skin glowing and their Fashion looking like a $1,000 spent off the cuff. Although the male seemed like a 'team player', the female was definately 'individual' in her ways.
My wife wasn't too impressed at me looking at the Moslem chick who had legs up to her earlobes. :o

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The burqa is not represenative of Islam, it's representative of islamofascism.

Grey you can make it represent whatever you want. But if you want to ban it you need to come up with something real, not just your imagination.


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People should enter our community who approve of its values

What are our values Grey? Personal freedom? Live and let live? Or conformity and meat pies? Would you have government imposed boganism?


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No woman in all human history has ever chosen to 'preserve their modesty' by wearing a burqa.

Yes they have Grey. You do not speak for these women. Again, making this crap up is not the same as a rational argument. You sound more and more like the stereotype from the ad claiming that the woman knew she deserved to be beaten.


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You cant pick and choose which parts of Islam to follow this is Islam not christianity the Quran is very clear with this.

Actually you can. Religion is like that. The evidence is simply that so many Muslims do pick and choose. But freedom is not like that. You cannot claim to support freedom but pick and choose which ones to support.

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Grey you can make it represent whatever you want. But if you want to ban it you need to come up with something real, not just your imagination.

One day there was Afghanistan, a burqa free area, then there was talibanised Afghanistan and wall to wall Burqas. Only in my imagination of course?


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[quote]No woman in all human history has ever chosen to 'preserve their modesty' by wearing a burqa.

Yes they have Grey. You do not speak for these women. Again, making this crap up is not the same as a rational argument. You sound more and more like the stereotype from the ad claiming that the woman knew she deserved to be beaten.[/quote]

Oh really? Where are these woman? Do the women of Saudi Arabia choose to take their rides in the car boot by choice too?

http://www.onthisdeity.com/6th-november-1990-%E2%80%93%C2%A0the-women-drivers-of-saudi-arabia/


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You sound more and more like the stereotype from the ad claiming that the woman knew she deserved to be beaten.

Take your meds free. ;D

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One day there was Afghanistan, a burqa free area, then there was talibanised Afghanistan and wall to wall Burqas. Only in my imagination of course?

Tell me Grey, what is the problem there? Is it that the women cover their face, or that they are not free to choose?


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Oh really? Where are these woman?

In societies that protect the right of individuals to choose for themselves what to wear.


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Take your meds free.

You are the one claiming to speak on behalf of all the world's women.

adelcrow wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

Women should never be forced to wear the Burqa and nor should they ever be forced not to wear it. Like all things it should always be up to the individual  :)

Well, that's as un-Islamic as it gets.

Soren wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:01pm:

adelcrow wrote on Apr 24th, 2011 at 10:23am: Women should never be forced to wear the Burqa and nor should they ever be forced not to wear it. Like all things it should always be up to the individual  :) Well, that's as un-Islamic as it gets.

And Soren's view is closer to Islam?

freediver wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 9:47am:

The problem with Islam is not the clothes that Muslims wear, but that it systematically denies people the right to choose for themselves what to wear.

And the burqa is an eminent example of this. You wish to protect and uphol Muslims' right to systematically deny their women's right to choose for themselves in the name of Islam.

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:04pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 24th, 2011 at 10:01pm: adelcrow wrote on Apr 24th, 2011 at 10:23am: Women should never be forced to wear the Burqa and nor should they ever be forced not to wear it. Like all things it should always be up to the individual  :) Well, that's as un-Islamic as it gets. And Soren's view is closer to Islam?

I am not here to represent Islam's views. I know this comes as a shock, but there it is, it's out now.

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And the burqa is an eminent example of this.

You mean banning it, or imposing it? Which one denies women the right to choose?


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You wish to protect and uphol Muslims' right to systematically deny their women's right to choose for themselves in the name of Islam.

No Soren, you misunderstand yet again. I am the one defending the right of a woman to choose. You know what rights and freedoms are don't you?

Soren wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:06pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 24th, 2011 at 10:04pm: Soren wrote on Apr 24th, 2011 at 10:01pm: adelcrow wrote on Apr 24th, 2011 at 10:23am: Women should never be forced to wear the Burqa and nor should they ever be forced not to wear it. Like all things it should always be up to the individual  :) Well, that's as un-Islamic as it gets. And Soren's view is closer to Islam? I am not here to represent Islam's views. I know this comes as a shock, but there it is, it's out now.

You are happy to describe the view as being as being the most unIslamic one. But now you go all shy when it comes to your own views? Tell me Soren, which position here is closer to that of Islam, mine or yours?

Grey wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 9:26am:

The burqa is not represenative of Islam, it's representative of islamofascism. People should enter our community who approve of its values and not because they want to undermine them. It's not 'tolerant' to allow representaives of fascism to wear their uniforms, it's stupid and weak. No woman in all human history has ever chosen to 'preserve their modesty' by wearing a burqa. Some choose it because they're idiotic enough to adopt it as a symbol of dissent. I support the 100 women coerced to wear the burqa by the extreme patriarchy of their society and don't much care about the oddballs who'd give away their freedoms by joining it. http://www.habeeb.com/images/lebanon.photos/i.love.beirut.demonstration.jpg

Those are the Beiruts we have all come to love, too.

The major difference between Western values and Islam, is the pure hatered of Islam, the personal insecurity, the arrogant self satisfaction which is the norm for moslums.

I think the West should stick to Politics and Aviation
and leave Religion and Fashion to the Middle-East (even if some believe in traditional, conservative attire that makes Western people feel insecure that Moslem women have something to hide like the CIA has.)
Moslem women must be doing something right without the need to feel 'liberated' by badly dressed Westerners, because they seem to enjoy having heaps of kids unlike Westerners and don't suffer heaps of divorces, especially after having the kids.