Is evil a relative or absolute term?

Think about that for a moment then consider the current case of Osama Bin Laden.

Most of the world/heads of state/media etc will readily equate the above person with evil .. the very personification of evil even. He has been described as a modern day Hitler, another Saddam etc ..  YET SOME people (not many) refer to Osama in positive and glowing terms.

A cursory glance at this message board .. and the member run Islam board in particular .. demonstrates my point.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1304726975/0

Osama is more like a Greek god - not perfect, by any means, but still a god.

And you have to admit, the ladies were fond of him. He definately had something under that kaftan. He had - has... Power.

That gentle caress of his, his soft voice reading the Koran, his love for his children. Yes, Osama was a very dear man. How will he be judged by God?

Alas, this is the will of God. But I can tell you now: if Osama was here, dear, you'd melt.

How will he be judged by God?

He will be judged by God as all people will be judged .. according to all their deeds here on earth.

In Osama's case .. his many deeds are readily documented here on earth .. and many have unfortunately witnessed/experienced them and have been adversely affected by them.

Lisa Jones wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

How will he be judged by God? He will be judged by God as all people will be judged .. according to all their deeds here on earth. In Osama's case .. his many deeds are readily documented here on earth .. and many have witnessed and have been adversly affected by them.

Oh, true! But he was still such a good man. Perhaps men and God have different ideas.

Lisa Jones wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

How will he be judged by God? He will be judged by God as all people will be judged .. according to all their deeds here on earth. In Osama's case .. his many deeds are readily documented here on earth .. and many have unfortunately witnessed/experienced them and have been adversely affected by them.

In addition .. one of the interesting things I've read about Osama .. was that towards the end .. even he himself was full of regret about many things he had done and he did not want his children to follow in his footsteps at all.

Isn't it amazing how a person suddenly rediscovers their sense of right and wrong  .. when they realise that their time on the run/in hiding is almost up.

I don't think Osama was dumb. And he wasn't a crook - he was motivated by the most religious of reasons.

But how do we even know what he did? They shot him dead. He certainly called for people to die and kill, and he was quite influential in this.

Still. Even Mother Theresa had her doubts.

A lot of things motivate us as individuals.

However, have you noticed that not many of us allow our motivations to take control of us so that they direct us on a path of calling for/causing mass terror/fear/murder?

Interesting hey.

Karnal wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 8:33pm:

I don't think Osama was dumb.  he was motivated by the most religious of reasons.

Yairs, yairs...

The plaint of the psychopath.

"God told me to"


Quote:

My name is John Johanna, I am misunderstood Lately I have been accused of grievous murder in cold blood My mission is most righteous, my cause is true and just The wicked need chastisement, you know it’s either them or us God told me to I did what I had to do God told me to

Bin Laden achieved nothing for Islam... Except death.

Helian .. interestingly enough your post brought to mind the plea of insanity which some criminals have been able to use when faced with a murder charge.

===> Perhaps Osama was not evil .. just clinically insane?

If this is true .. then what does this say for all the Muslims who followed him and carried out his acts of terror/fear/murder?

And what does this say for those like Abu .. who think highly of him even now?

Perhaps clinically insane people have the capacity to be evil also??

Lisa Jones wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:12pm:

And what does this say for those like Abu .. who think highly of him even now?

An embittered Ishwar-come-lately.

And that NZ Maori politician - whingeing about dishonouring a corpse... From a culture that once practised cannibalism.

Are you inferring that we're dealing with evil and insane people on this message board???

Surely not!

I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here.

he is an extremist and belongs there.

Good vs Evil

These are spiritual contructs .. and archetypal binaries.

One defines the other.

How do we define what is good and thus what is evil?

That is what the topic is about.

We can see problems in defining these terms if we look at certain individuals as examples.

On what basis can we then define these terms?

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there.

Oh well .. delete the topic then.

I was merely trying to revive the wasteland in here.

My bad.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there.

Oh. And I suppose Mother Theresa was a terrorist too, eh?

They both advocated suicide bombing and destroying the Satanic West, after all.

Karnal wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:33pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:21pm: I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there. Oh. And I suppose Mother Theresa was a terrorist too, eh? They both advocated suicide bombing and destroying the Satanic West, after all.

It's time for your cyanide pill - you have gone compeletly insane.

Lisa Jones wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:28pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:21pm: I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there. Oh well .. delete the topic then. I was merely trying to revive the wasteland in here. My bad.

i rarely remove postings here, have never removed a thread i believe.
do not try to "help" me ever.

Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:38pm:

Karnal wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:33pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:21pm: I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there. Oh. And I suppose Mother Theresa was a terrorist too, eh? They both advocated suicide bombing and destroying the Satanic West, after all. It's time for your cyanide pill - you have gone compeletly insane.

Ahh insane yes .. but is he also evil???

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:41pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:28pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:21pm: I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there. Oh well .. delete the topic then. I was merely trying to revive the wasteland in here. My bad. i rarely remove postings here, have never removed a thread i believe. do not try to "help" me ever.

Then stop your frigging whinging that you never get a chance to have a say on those other forums.

The basis for defining evil as opposed to insanity .. anyone?

As we've seen .. examples abound .. but what actually defines evil?

If this actual definition exists .. does it change in meaning when applied to particular people over space and time?

( for those who are following .. yes I am saying that perhaps evil is both absolute AND relative )

Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:38pm:

Karnal wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:33pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:21pm: I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there. Oh. And I suppose Mother Theresa was a terrorist too, eh? They both advocated suicide bombing and destroying the Satanic West, after all. It's time for your cyanide pill - you have gone compeletly insane.

Ah - your genocidal tendancies are coming to the fore, I see. Alas, they are impossible to supress in some. I, however, allude to the concept of pure evil.

You have obviously had nothing to do with nuns.

Lisa Jones wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

How will he be judged by God? He will be judged by God as all people will be judged .. according to all their deeds here on earth. In Osama's case .. his many deeds are readily documented here on earth .. and many have unfortunately witnessed/experienced them and have been adversely affected by them.

lisa, that only works if your god is the god. To Binladdin, he wasn't.

Deborahmac09 wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:16pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 8:18pm: How will he be judged by God? He will be judged by God as all people will be judged .. according to all their deeds here on earth. In Osama's case .. his many deeds are readily documented here on earth .. and many have unfortunately witnessed/experienced them and have been adversely affected by them. lisa, that only works if your god is the god. To Binladdin, he wasn't.

My dear fellow, there is only one God. Shiva, Vishnu, Mohammed, Buddha, Yesus, Arthur Stace, H. W Leadbeater, Krishnamurti, the workers of the world, the Invisible Hand, Master Satan, Usamah bin Laden, and us.

We are all one.

Forgiven.

And so it is.

Namaste.

Nite all!

Karnal wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:58pm:

Soren wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:38pm: Karnal wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:33pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:21pm: I don't consider a mass murdering terrorist to be spiritual and wish he had not been bought here. he is an extremist and belongs there. Oh. And I suppose Mother Theresa was a terrorist too, eh? They both advocated suicide bombing and destroying the Satanic West, after all. It's time for your cyanide pill - you have gone compeletly insane. Ah - your genocidal tendancies are coming to the fore, I see. Alas, they are impossible to supress in some. I, however, allude to the concept of pure evil. You have obviously had nothing to do with nuns.

Wishing to throtle you/provide access and encouragement in the direction of a cyanide pill is not genocidal - unless you have delusions of being the embodiment of the Ein Volk of the PB community. (How do you say Ein Volk in Paki Buggerese?)

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 9:04pm:

Bin Laden achieved nothing for Islam... Except death.

Our holy brother Usamah mobilized the people's Will. He was not subject to the ordinary moral constraints of men and beasts.

He knew, deep down, that there is no God (but Allah). Within him surged a will to power, unsurpassed by any other. Usamah laughed at nations, borders, laws. Indeed, he laughed in the very face of God.

And because of this, he achieved his own form of divinity - a place among the gods.

Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:35pm:

How do you say Ein Volk in Paki Buggerese?

We tend to prefer the subjective diminutive, as in, "the Paki buggers". However, we also use the deflective article, as in, "the Paki is buggered", but we also use the temporal definitive, qua, "the Paki is buggering". As always, it depends on the context and the object being, in the objective diminutive, buggered.

In this case, I think you'll find it is the Danish jungen. You may wipe yourself off, dear boy.

Oh - take a sweet with you as you leave.

Karnal wrote on May 7^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

And because of this, he achieved his own form of divinity - a place among the gods.

I've got no doubt he thought so.

...and the poor sandle-clad warriors of the Middle-East fought for what they believed in against the Evil technologically advanced Terminators from America who kill from the safety of afar and from heaven above itself.
Then one day, the Evil Terminators of America found their Economy left wanting for a second time in their history and all of Islam was free to run amok ...until the French came forth.
Then all of Islam's power was expended upon France and what was left of the Breeders known as Islam, came under the rule of Israel.

...now Israel found itself ruling over many millions of displaced Moslems that just bred, bred and bred. Would they gas them?
Or would they lead them to war against Italy? ;)

Anyone who Politically opposes the USA is 'Evil'.
Just like the USA/UK are 'mathematically' Evil and thus are again having an Economic meltdown. Besides being still archaically in Imperial, maybe the West shouldn't have messed with Mugabe :-?

thats actually amusing Jasign. ;D

Before defining Evil, we have to decide - does it exist? As a separate perceptible interactive force?

Is Evil something? Is Evil anything?  Is that anything?  (from 'Letterman') with my own additions.

From the (few) prior posts I've read -  it seems that Evil is entirely wrapped up in Religion.
Evil backwards is Live   God backwards is Dog -  So???????????

So - its easy - Evil is  not open for definition - it doesn't exist -  except in the hearts and minds of the superstitious and religious.  The Universe doesn't give a F n Continental about you or me - and  people create their own misery. Easier to blame it on God or the Devil!?
Allah or ?? the Anti-Christ???
Please  - People are evil, with a small 'e' - using the word in a purely descriptive way.

OK so maybe I have a description -  People = Evil.
Like that? :)

Evil can be 'defined', imo, as the absence of the spirit of God.



+++

e.g.

Q.
Can light and darkness, exist together?

A.
Light and darkness, cannot exist together.
Light will drive away the darkness.
Or, the darkness will try to extinguish the light.
But they cannot co-exist.

It is an impossibility.

Light and darkness, and, goodness and wickedness.
They are separate, and by definition, they cannot co-exist.



And the wicked cannot 'see' God, because the spirit of God will not [cannot!] 'touch' them.

Why not?
Our God is Holy.
And God will not 'touch' those, who refuse to separate the good, from the evil.
And God will not 'touch' those, who refuse to discern between good, and evil.



IMO, the purpose of this life, is so that we can [individually] demonstrate, plainly, if we want to live in the light, or if we want to live in the darkness.

Sadly, much of mankind will choose the darkness [i believe].

The selfish nature of the wicked, compels them [to remain in rebellion against the 'essence' of what God is].

Truth and light, and love.





John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Amazing... I have been watching this thread and three pages in, no one has considered what the dictionary has to say on the nature of evil. Why?  

Evil is defined as an intentional act of immorality which causes suffering and harm. So evil has three qualities... it must be intended... it must be immoral... it must have negative consequences of harm and/or suffering.

This narrows the focus of evil upon those with the capacity to understand morality and immorality at the time of the action. If you lack that ability to understand morality/immorality and intend an act which causes harm... you are not evil... most likely you are an animal hunting or a human who is mentally impaired either through age, genetics or insanity.

If a child of three shoots his brother dead... it is not evil because the child is mentally impaired due to age.
If a schizophrenic woman in the midst of an episode goes on a shooting spree... it is not evil because the woman is mentally impaired due to temporary insanity.
If a profoundly down syndrome man strangles another in a fit of rage... it is not evil because the man is mentally impaired due to genetics.  

A disturbance in the force :P

evil the word = palendrome opposite number unto live

the harmonic frequency is the polar opposite unto that which may

be interpreted as LOVE

EVOL

with forgiveness for confusions beloved ones,

i never left thee

namaste

A.
Light and darkness, cannot exist together.
Light will drive away the darkness.
Or, the darkness will try to extinguish the light.
But they cannot co-exist.

It is an impossibility.

__________

well i am here to announce they can will and do exist as you are living

through the paradigm at this very moment

in the 3rd dimension yes it is the order of things as it were

and so it is

namaste

IMO, the purpose of this life, is so that we can [individually] demonstrate, plainly, if we want to live in the light, or if we want to live in the darkness.

____________

fact

namaste

IMO, the purpose of this life, is so that we can [individually] demonstrate, plainly, if we want to live in the light, or if we want to live in the darkness.

____________

Now that I agree with, mostly, ..but we are not demonstrating to an almighty with the power to banish us to Hell....  re-incarnation is a nifty idea which connects with your philosophy  Light, but doesn't with Christianity. Can't be reborn if you are in Heaven or Hell - altho no doubt there is some writings somewhere which resolve this to the satisfaction of some.

I can't help but go with  re-incarnation over the other. I'm an atheist, as I've said before, - and I'll add that there is a spark in all of us - of the 'divine' if you want to put it that way. I'd say - more than this .    Inside -  not out there somewhere.
I think we have probably all come across people who are kind and good, and aren't religious.

So its not about an identifiable Evil  as in an entity -  except for those who believe in God. The early priests must have found it easier to explain the idea of evil to the folk of the land by giving it a name, thereby creating a very handy tool to hold over the heads of the folk, to control and rob them, all in the name of ....  Now that is an act of evil!.  :'( :P

and I'll add that there is a spark in all of us - of the 'divine' if you want to put it that way.

___________

by your own admission,beloved one

you are no atheist

namaste

So its not about an identifiable Evil  as in an entity

_______________

evil if you will,is a manifestation of thought through harmonics

sacred geometry

as above,so below

and so it is

namaste

Yadda wrote on May 8^th, 2011 at 3:38am:

Evil can be 'defined', imo, as the absence of the spirit of God. +++ e.g. Q. Can light and darkness, exist together? A. Light and darkness, cannot exist together. Light will drive away the darkness. Or, the darkness will try to extinguish the light. But they cannot co-exist. It is an impossibility. Light and darkness, and, goodness and wickedness. They are separate, and by definition, they cannot co-exist. And the wicked cannot 'see' God, because the spirit of God will not [cannot!] 'touch' them. Why not? Our God is Holy. And God will not 'touch' those, who refuse to separate the good, from the evil. And God will not 'touch' those, who refuse to discern between good, and evil. IMO, the purpose of this life, is so that we can [individually] demonstrate, plainly, if we want to live in the light, or if we want to live in the darkness. Sadly, much of mankind will choose the darkness [i believe]. The selfish nature of the wicked, compels them [to remain in rebellion against the 'essence' of what God is]. Truth and light, and love. John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

One can't exist without the other. Morals needs other morals, or a lack of morals, to compare themselves against. Good and evil, or good and bad, work in a dialectical relation; constantly playing off each other.

One can't exist without the other.

____________

this is 3rd dimensional rationale'

and thinking yes and totally understandable and expected yes

however

in the higher dimensions there is only LOVE and LIGHT

no evil can exist there beloved ones

and so it is

so be it

namaste

"One can't exist without the other. Morals needs other morals, or a lack of morals, to compare themselves against. Good and evil, or good and bad, work in a dialectical relation; constantly playing off each other. "


"as above, so below"     I can add "what goes up must come down"  :)

And so it is all about balance, neh? Why rant against the Dark, when the Light could not exist without it? These concepts we are all so eager to promote are really human attempts at taming the 'world', the Earth, and its multitudinous fecundity. Foolhardy.
She is never our enemy - unless we make her so.
Pretending that the minutiae of human bickering is cosmic and demands we understand!. Talk about lost in the wilderness.

One looks into the Abyss  ........

"as above, so below"     I can add "what goes up must come down"

___________

in context as above

planets going around stars/suns

these traversing around galaxies galaxies traversing around universes

universes traversing around omniverse and cosmosi

[that is in fact the as above part],the macro cosmos

electrons going around the nuclei the micro [below]

and here,

"Why rant against the Dark, when the Light could not exist without it?"

this is the physical universe and not aplicable to the higher dimensions

this is totally understandable you would be in a state of confusion upon

such matters and with forgiveness concerning individual interpretations

namaste

further at the micro level

1.6 X 10 to the -35th meter

all points of matter lose locality

that is

they become omni present

this is the void abyss you speaketh upon with ignorance

upon the relevence and factual context of matter

with forgiveness unto confusions and no judgement beloved

mear observational validations

i LOVE you and honour the LIGHT that dwelleth within you

namaste

research the fractal mandelbrot set

no interior

no exterior

and so it is

namaste

ooh yeah - seen that fractal stuff -  simply amazing- - so much the micro of the macro -  speaking as an earth-based being.

Higher dimensions??  I've bumped up against them, but I guess I have another round of incarnation to go through , seeing as I'm just a baby, really,  with  'strange' ideas.

So it is. :)

and

namaste

it is now that i ascend once again beloved ones

into and within these higher dimensions

being multidimensional this is no problem for one such as i..

i shall return with even higher frequencies to assist upon your world

with so very much LOVE

namaste

-:)

Defining evil...



muso wrote on May 8^th, 2011 at 7:41am:

A disturbance in the force :P

LOL

I like it.



Quote:

"...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."

Hmm .. some interesting perspectives outlined in here.

Have we come up with a definition for evil yet? Anyone?

No- apart from a dictionary definition.

Sort of supports my original post neh? ;D

Sappho wrote on May 8^th, 2011 at 6:26am:

Amazing... I have been watching this thread and three pages in, no one has considered what the dictionary has to say on the nature of evil. Why?   Evil is defined as an intentional act of immorality which causes suffering and harm. So evil has three qualities... it must be intended... it must be immoral... it must have negative consequences of harm and/or suffering. This narrows the focus of evil upon those with the capacity to understand morality and immorality at the time of the action. If you lack that ability to understand morality/immorality and intend an act which causes harm... you are not evil... most likely you are an animal hunting or a human who is mentally impaired either through age, genetics or insanity. If a child of three shoots his brother dead... it is not evil because the child is mentally impaired due to age. If a schizophrenic woman in the midst of an episode goes on a shooting spree... it is not evil because the woman is mentally impaired due to temporary insanity. If a profoundly down syndrome man strangles another in a fit of rage... it is not evil because the man is mentally impaired due to genetics.

Well said Sappho. A voice of sanity amongst all these ramblings. I must add however, that good and evil cannot exist without each other. If all evil were suddenly banished from the world, would good be what is left, or is it the fact we have a choice that defines good and evil?

Am I making sense here? :-/

Belgarion wrote on May 9^th, 2011 at 11:14pm:

Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 6:26am: Amazing... I have been watching this thread and three pages in, no one has considered what the dictionary has to say on the nature of evil. Why?   Evil is defined as an intentional act of immorality which causes suffering and harm. So evil has three qualities... it must be intended... it must be immoral... it must have negative consequences of harm and/or suffering. This narrows the focus of evil upon those with the capacity to understand morality and immorality at the time of the action. If you lack that ability to understand morality/immorality and intend an act which causes harm... you are not evil... most likely you are an animal hunting or a human who is mentally impaired either through age, genetics or insanity. If a child of three shoots his brother dead... it is not evil because the child is mentally impaired due to age. If a schizophrenic woman in the midst of an episode goes on a shooting spree... it is not evil because the woman is mentally impaired due to temporary insanity. If a profoundly down syndrome man strangles another in a fit of rage... it is not evil because the man is mentally impaired due to genetics.   Well said Sappho. A voice of sanity amongst all these ramblings. I must add however, that good and evil cannot exist without each other. If all evil were suddenly banished from the world, would good be what is left, or is it the fact we have a choice that defines good and evil? Am I making sense here? :-/

I think you are definitely making sense, but I disagree with you anyway.  ;)

I believe that for Ethics to exist, we need to create concepts of good, wrong and evil actions based on human social and antisocial behaviours and motivated by our personal experiences with the sensations of physical and emotional pleasure and pain.  

it_is_the_light wrote on May 8^th, 2011 at 9:55pm:

it is now that i ascend once again beloved ones into and within these higher dimensions being multidimensional this is no problem for one such as i.. i shall return with even higher frequencies to assist upon your world with so very much LOVE namaste -:)

Thank you, Master. Please come back and teach us more when your DNA has been renewed. Again.