Australian Politics Forum | |
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl
Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1304846869 Message started by abu_rashid on May 8th, 2011 at 7:27pm |
Title: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by abu_rashid on May 8th, 2011 at 7:27pm
Noam Chomsky: My Reaction to Osama bin Laden’s Death
May 6, 2011 We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. By Noam Chomsky It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.” Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement. There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.” We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region. There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president. Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.” There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about. Copyright 2011 Noam Chomsky |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by HC on May 9th, 2011 at 1:25pm
Whilst i HATE radical Islam/extremism to the core (that is to say, terrorists and those who would do harm to other humans) and have never been a Bin Laden fan, for the US to breach international law yet again is despicable . Little wonder the US and allies have been targets of terrorism, they have fanned the flames of hatred in the muslim world at the expense of our future security.
Ideally, I'd keep the west on its side of the fence, and the islamic world on their own. Never should the two entwine. Our ideals are clearly incompatible, as are our tenets of faith. Back to the OT- The US should be held accountable for it's crimes against humanity, as do those who kill in the name of their religion. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Karnal on May 9th, 2011 at 2:06pm
Chomsky's right. There was clearly an order to kill. I have no idea why - you'd think he'd be worth more alive than dead.
This makes me think there is something quite fishy about the whole War On Terror, and bin Laden's place in it. I wouldn't mind betting there were more players involved in 9/11 than Al Qaeda, but perhaps they're allies of the US. Pakistan? A confession is good enough? Not sure - this depends on US intelligence, which, as we've seen, is never 100% accurate, especially as Cheney's quick to point out - some of it has been obtained through torture. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by bobbythebat1 on May 9th, 2011 at 2:49pm
Abu - it is a war - you know. ;D
Were they supposed to read him his rights? |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by WESLEY.PIPES on May 9th, 2011 at 3:13pm
Of course he was executed - he knows too much.
|
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by bobbythebat1 on May 10th, 2011 at 7:58am ... wrote on May 9th, 2011 at 3:13pm:
Proof that he knew too much: Australia will never be given all the information that was picked up at his residence. The Yanks will keep it for themselves. There were hard disks, computers & 100 USB sticks full of juicy information. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Lestat on May 10th, 2011 at 10:10am Bobby. wrote on May 10th, 2011 at 7:58am:
Proof that he was guilty of 911. And I'll give you a hint, a translation of CNN from a tape that was found (and stated by Swiss intelligence at the time) to be a fake, doesn't constitute 'proof'. Beyond reasonable doubt...now, where have I heard that before? |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Karnal on May 10th, 2011 at 1:18pm Lestat wrote on May 10th, 2011 at 10:10am:
Er - that Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction and ties to Al Qaeda? |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by gizmo_2655 on May 10th, 2011 at 5:21pm Karnal wrote on May 10th, 2011 at 1:18pm:
Well no Saddam didn't.....but that's an entirely different situation.. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Belgarion on May 10th, 2011 at 5:31pm
It is a war, Bin Laden was an enemy combatant. Chomsky may wail and moan all he likes but there was no legal requirement to do anything other than what was done.
|
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Sappho on May 10th, 2011 at 5:51pm Belgarion wrote on May 10th, 2011 at 5:31pm:
Have to disagree there. I believe there was an obligation to see justice to be served. Summary execution is not justice. As it stands Bin Laden has been martyred and so will increase the level of support in his beliefs and terrorism in the long term... just as the martyrdom of Jesus increase the popularity of his philosophy and followers. The West needs to be very careful of who they make martyrs. There is also the idea, expressed by Robertson QC of Bin Laden having been mystified whereas a court case would have had the opposite effect. I think there was a need to have Bin Laden in a court of justice, in the witness box expressing his hatred and fanaticism to the world... that the world may know that he was hate filled with irrational beliefs. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by bobbythebat1 on May 10th, 2011 at 5:51pm
No different to Admiral Yamamoto's killing in WW2.
All is fair in love & war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vengeance Quote:
|
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Grey on May 10th, 2011 at 6:17pm
for a time there it did look like the entire Bush administration was nothing more than a puppet board of Halliburton's. Regan went way over the top ordering a missile strike on Philli. What Kissinger got up to in Laos and Cambodia was just plain Nazi and Albright's "we think the price was worth it" gets a special mention. Chuck Blair and Howard in the dock with them along with anybody left to round up for the shenanigins in South and Central America. If they could all go on trial in the Hague it wouldn't bother me one iota.
That said, there's a lot of facts Chomsky glosses right over. Bush never poisoned and massacred his own people like Saddam did. He didn't go to war against American women armed with acid and whips. He didn't blow up world heritage monuments and, sloppy as the execution of the war has been, military targets attacked by uniforms have been the order of the day. Ossama might have elicited more sympathy by attacking the Pentagon and Fort Worth where the drone pilots operate from. When I attack, (with words) the USA, I'm not attacking ordinary men, women and children. I'm attacking the people and policies of the ruling class and culture. airliners, tube trains, office blocks and Bali nightclubs are NOT legiimate targets. Nobody who sanctions and bankrolls those actions is worth worrying about. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by freediver on May 10th, 2011 at 6:38pm Quote:
Are you sure about that? I can't imagine anyone who supports or potentially supports terrorism would be genuinely concerned about the justice issues here. They want Bin Laden alive, whether he was responsible or not. Furthermore, the spectacle of a trial would have given his organisation a lot of attention. None of his supporters would have seen his stance as anything but at war with the west, particularly the US. I expect it would be more demoralising for them that we got it over and done with quickly, with little fanfare, and move quickly onto the next target. Quote:
There have been plenty of martyrs since Jesus. How many are still remembered today? |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by mickey rat on May 10th, 2011 at 7:26pm
Well, I have to say Noam Chomsky's comments sound OK to me. I wouldn't say I’m a Chomsky groupie but he HAS played a major part in my political education over the last 40 or so years, so I will always at least listen to what he says. In fact his voice had been so persuasive, I was convinced as I watched the twin towers fall on 9/11 that the Chileans (considering the date) or at least some other South or Central American group was exacting revenge. That it was actually disgruntled folks from elsewhere was not a surprise either. My thoughts at the time were "chickens home to roost" and Kissinger and others were finally getting their due. I am not anti-American as such, but Chomsky always managed to articulate my feelings about American foreign policies so much better than I could myself, so I'm glad he’s still active.
|
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by abu_rashid on May 11th, 2011 at 6:35am Quote:
This seems to be contrary to what those who've met him say about him. He is always described as a very calm, rational and lucid man, contrary to the media propaganda of him being some rabid raving lunatic. This is reported by both enemies and supporters alike. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Sappho on May 11th, 2011 at 7:19am
Irrespective of what you Abu or Freediver says... Bin Laden had a right to justice and all humanity has a right to see justice being done.
The 'Star Chamber' mentality is immoral and repugnant. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Lestat on May 11th, 2011 at 9:29am Belgarion wrote on May 10th, 2011 at 5:31pm:
So when Bin Laden strikes the S11 towers which housed US military offices....its terrorism, but when the US assasinate Bin Laden without trial...its war. Seems its only war when it suits your agenda. How convenient. Hypocricy at its finest. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Lestat on May 11th, 2011 at 9:33am Grey wrote on May 10th, 2011 at 6:17pm:
The World Towers housed US military offices as well as other legitimate military targets (using the western copy book on what is and isn't a legitimate target). Using your own western logic...does this not make the 3000 odd civilians killed on S11...um, 'collateral damage'. Or my favorite...should the attacks be blamed on the US government for hiding its military 'amongst civilians'. ::) Or can these words only be used when the west murders innocent civilians. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Belgarion on May 11th, 2011 at 12:24pm Lestat wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 9:29am:
So by using your own logic you Bin Laden groupies have nothing to bitch about have you? ;D |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Grey on May 11th, 2011 at 12:57pm Quote:
East West North or South when 'Leaders' go feral and start murdering ordinary people, I think reasonable people should kick up a stink about it. When they murder each other I think we can all cheer. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by mozzaok on May 11th, 2011 at 1:00pm Quote:
While I disagree in principle with the way Bin Laden was killed, I also hold no sympathy for him on a personal level, and as soon as he committed his life to radical jihadism, his fate was in his own hands. I agree with the opinion offered by FD, and that was the only justification that I could come up with to rationalise what was effectively a summary execution, other than the fact that almost any other course of action could have quickly spiralled out of control, with massive potential for personal harm to be visited upon innocent people by Bin Laden's fellow jihadists. I mourn the lowering of our standards of justice and decency, but I also accept that we do not live in a black and white world where there is always an easy choice between right and wrong. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Lestat on May 12th, 2011 at 9:43am Belgarion wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 12:24pm:
Actually...its your logic. Besides...who's bitching? |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Lestat on May 12th, 2011 at 9:46am Grey wrote on May 11th, 2011 at 12:57pm:
Ordinary people quite often do...unless of course when its Israeli's killing Palestinian children, or Americans bombing Afghan villages...when this occurs, those 'ordinary' people you speak of cheer on the sidelines whey they hear of another muslims killed. Don't believe me...check out the 'Extremism' board. Oh...and I look forward to you kicking up a stink the next time the west kills innocent muslims. Don't worry...unfortunately you won't have to wait long. |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by Grey on May 12th, 2011 at 10:03am Lestat wrote on May 12th, 2011 at 9:46am:
Oh don't worry Lestat, I've done my time on I/P threads and maybe I'll open one in General. ;) |
Title: Re: Chomsky on Bin Laden's murder Post by abu_rashid on May 14th, 2011 at 12:41am Quote:
No Lestat, according to the Western rules of propaganda, it'd make them human shields, since they housed military assets alongside civilians. But we all know that kind of "reasoning" only applies to the enemy. This is no two way street here. |
Australian Politics Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2! YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2025. All Rights Reserved. |