What would he get in Australia?
10 years? Out in 8?

+++++++++++++++++


MEMPHIS, TN - Memphis, TN (WMC-TV) - A jury gave the death penalty to a Memphis man who murdered the mother of his three children, and then dismembered her body. He will die by lethal injection.

It took less than two hours for the jury to convict James Hawkins on Friday, it took them just over two hours to decide on the death penalty.

Saturday, jurors heard testimony from Hawkins mother, Della Thomas, who told the jury she did not want her only son to die.

Hours before jurors would decide his fate, James Hawkins gave up his right to testify on his own behalf. He did ask the judge if he could say one thing.

"I do want to apologize to the Gaither family for what I did do," Hawkins said.

The family of murder victim Charlene Gaither hugged each other outside of court.

"Nobody won in this situation," Gaither's sister Cynthia Guy said.

"I'm relieved this is all over," Gaither's father, Louis Irvin Jr. said.

Hawkins mother quickly left the courthouse. Another family member placed her purse in front of TV cameras.

"Privacy, if your son was put to death would you want to be seen right now?" the family member asked.

Perhaps, the people in the toughest position, are Gaither and Hawkins three children.

They already lost their mom, at the hand of their dad. Now they know they will lose their father too.

Their daughter testified that her father forced her to help him cut up her mother's dead body. They then scattered the body parts in DeSoto County. She was 12 at the time.

"She has her days like everyone but with church and all these loved ones she'll be doing fine," Guy said.

Gaither's father said with God's help his grandchildren will be just fine.

"My mother was gone when I was two," Irvin said. "I'm not a murderer. I don't steal. I work every day. They can survive that's all I go to say."

"Ya'll keep us in your prayers, thank ya'll," Guy said to reporters before leaving.

The jury had to see some disturbing images during this trial, images that will stick with them for their whole lives.

Jurors do not receive any counseling after cases like this one.

More like 10 years, out in 5..

Quote:

More like 10 years, out in 5..

The average time served for murder in Australia is 17 years.

Ted's got it "sorted" ...




buzzanddidj wrote on May 31^st, 2011 at 3:40pm:

THE Baillieu Government and the Herald Sun are giving Herald-Sun readers a significant opportunity to give their views on sentencing for a range of crimes. The survey of tens of thousands of our readers will provide the Government with an in-depth indication of their opinions. Readers will be asked if they strongly agree or disagree with the minimum sentences being considered. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/let-us-hear-your-verdict-on-sentencing/story-fn6bn88w-1226065995603 And don't forget your "Be Magistrate for a Day" scratch card in the Weekend Herald-Sun Lucky winners will be given a wig and gavel (little hammer) and spend a day sentencing in one of Victoria's Magistrate Courts

So does "Ted" plan on handing out pitchforks, burning torches and nooses for the spectators to brandish and wave about?

Talk about dumb as pigshit ideas.

"Found guilty of murder!"
"kill him! burn him!"

"Found guilty of assault!"
"Kill him! burn him!"

"Found guilty of break and enter!"
"Kill him! burn him!"

"Found guilty of shoplifting!"
"Kill him! burn him!"

"Found guilty of speeding!"
"Kill him! burn him!"

I do not, and WILL NOT support the death-penalty under ANY
circumstances short of all-out war (spies, traitors etc).

Let people like this ROT in jail, NO parole.

And yes, I'm quite happy for my taxes to be spent that way.

Kat wrote on Jun 12^th, 2011 at 10:49pm:

I do not, and WILL NOT support the death-penalty under ANY circumstances short of all-out war (spies, traitors etc). Let people like this ROT in jail, NO parole. And yes, I'm quite happy for my taxes to be spent that way.

And I DO, and WILL support the Death penalty under appropriate circumstances..

You can not punish killing with killing, rape with rape or stealing with stealing.
People have and will always perpetrate the above, the idea is to not encourage it.

What does the bible say out of interest? Thou shall not kill or whatever. Any interpretations?

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 12^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

And I DO, and WILL support the Death penalty under appropriate circumstances..

Nobody has the right to take a life.

Did the US soldiers who gang raped the young girl in Iraq and then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime get the death penalty?

adelcrow wrote on Jun 13^th, 2011 at 10:43am:

Did the US soldiers who gang raped the young girl in Iraq and then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime get the death penalty?

What does that have to do with this story?

Hang em, and hang em high -

with a sign around his neck saying murderer.

jame-e wrote on Jun 12^th, 2011 at 11:13pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 12th, 2011 at 11:09pm: And I DO, and WILL support the Death penalty under appropriate circumstances.. Nobody has the right to take a life.

Leftist, PC shite, imo.


"Nobody has the right to take a life."

So, in your reality;

Nobody has the right to defend someone who is being murdered, by killing the murderer ???

Nobody has the right to prevent a murderer from murdering AGAIN, by killing [executing] a convicted murderer ???




Murderers [even in Australia] who have been released from prison have often murdered again.

The blood of their victims is on the hands of people like yourself, imo.

jame-e wrote on Jun 12^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

You can not punish killing with killing, rape with rape or stealing with stealing. People have and will always perpetrate the above, the idea is to not encourage it. What does the bible say out of interest? Thou shall not kill or whatever. Any interpretations?

Jesus said;

"Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother."
Matthew 19:16-19

All of the above were quoted by Jesus, directly from the book(s) of the law, the Torah,
Exodus 20:12-16
Deuteronomy 5:16-20

And including,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
From, Leviticus 19:18

The words used in the KJV of the OT is, thou shalt not kill.

But i would say that the word which Jesus used, imply's the truer meaning.

If there were a more Christian, God fearing state than Tennessee, then I'd like to see it.

We have a huge Operations facility in Memphis so I go there twice a year or so - very god fearing, honest people.

What would anyone else have done with the above Mr Hawkins?
Slap on the wrist? Naughty boy? Don't do it again?

Nope, not in this country. You got yourself a date on the Row Mr H.

Yadda wrote on Jun 13^th, 2011 at 3:50pm:

jame-e wrote on Jun 12th, 2011 at 11:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 12th, 2011 at 11:09pm: And I DO, and WILL support the Death penalty under appropriate circumstances.. Nobody has the right to take a life. Leftist, PC shite, imo. "Nobody has the right to take a life." So, in your reality; Nobody has the right to defend someone who is being murdered, by killing the murderer ??? Nobody has the right to prevent a murderer from murdering AGAIN, by killing [executing] a convicted murderer ??? Murderers [even in Australia] who have been released from prison have often murdered again. The blood of their victims is on the hands of people like yourself, imo.

'Leftist, pc shite, imo'

leaving the statement as it is, there are going to be many different opinions, that is why i thought I’d throw it in.

We are talking about the state taking a life, killing. Not somebody killing in defence of being killed, which is arguable in court.

As soon as the threat has ceased, so has the right to kill.

The state can not have a 'do as i say, not as i do' approach. It must lead by example.

jame-e wrote on Jun 13^th, 2011 at 5:07pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 13th, 2011 at 3:50pm: jame-e wrote on Jun 12th, 2011 at 11:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 12th, 2011 at 11:09pm: And I DO, and WILL support the Death penalty under appropriate circumstances.. Nobody has the right to take a life. Leftist, PC shite, imo. "Nobody has the right to take a life." So, in your reality; Nobody has the right to defend someone who is being murdered, by killing the murderer ??? Nobody has the right to prevent a murderer from murdering AGAIN, by killing [executing] a convicted murderer ??? Murderers [even in Australia] who have been released from prison have often murdered again. The blood of their victims is on the hands of people like yourself, imo. 'Leftist, pc shite, imo' leaving the statement as it is, there are going to be many different opinions, that is why i thought I’d throw it in. We are talking about the state taking a life, killing. Not somebody killing in defence of being killed, which is arguable in court. As soon as the threat has ceased, so has the right to kill. The state can not have a 'do as i say, not as i do' approach. It must lead by example.

If you are correct, then what is the example the state is setting, by releasing convicted murderers into the community [after 4-6 years] ???
[IMO, ideally, a convicted murderer would never again be released.]



IMO, if a person inadvertently  causes the death of another person, but that person had no intent to cause such a consequence, that person should be forgiven by our courts.

But imo, if a person causes the death of another, which is clearly a consequence of their own reckless behaviour, then that person should be held accountable for his/her actions, by our courts.
And imo, such a death should have the same 'consequence' in sentencing, as murder.

[e.g. perpetrators of so called, 'one punch deaths', or, a drink driver, whose driving causes the death of another person [however 'unintended' ], or, 'joy riders' in stolen vehicles, who's driving which [even indirectly] causes the death of another person [however 'unintended' ] ]

Yadda wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 7:48am:

jame-e wrote on Jun 13th, 2011 at 5:07pm: Yadda wrote on Jun 13th, 2011 at 3:50pm: jame-e wrote on Jun 12th, 2011 at 11:13pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 12th, 2011 at 11:09pm: And I DO, and WILL support the Death penalty under appropriate circumstances.. Nobody has the right to take a life. Leftist, PC shite, imo. "Nobody has the right to take a life." So, in your reality; Nobody has the right to defend someone who is being murdered, by killing the murderer ??? Nobody has the right to prevent a murderer from murdering AGAIN, by killing [executing] a convicted murderer ??? Murderers [even in Australia] who have been released from prison have often murdered again. The blood of their victims is on the hands of people like yourself, imo. 'Leftist, pc shite, imo' leaving the statement as it is, there are going to be many different opinions, that is why i thought I’d throw it in. We are talking about the state taking a life, killing. Not somebody killing in defence of being killed, which is arguable in court. As soon as the threat has ceased, so has the right to kill. The state can not have a 'do as i say, not as i do' approach. It must lead by example. If you are correct, then what is the example the state is setting, by releasing convicted murderers into the community [after 4-6 years] ??? [IMO, ideally, a convicted murderer would never again be released.] IMO, if a person inadvertently  causes the death of another person, but that person had no intent to cause such a consequence, that person should be forgiven by our courts. But imo, if a person causes the death of another, which is clearly a consequence of their own reckless behaviour, then that person should be held accountable for his/her actions, by our courts. And imo, such a death should have the same 'consequence' in sentencing, as murder. [e.g. perpetrators of so called, 'one punch deaths', or, a drink driver, whose driving causes the death of another person [however 'unintended' ], or, 'joy riders' in stolen vehicles, who's driving which [even indirectly] causes the death of another person [however 'unintended' ] ]

yadd, you often quote the Bible and clearly have read it. But just as clearly, you really dont understand it. You seem to have missed one of the primary messages of the Bible which is forgiveness. Maybe if you read an english translation it might help.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 8:53am:

yadd, you often quote the Bible and clearly have read it. But just as clearly, you really dont understand it. You seem to have missed one of the primary messages of the Bible which is forgiveness. Maybe if you read an english translation it might help.

Thank you.

I take your comment as a challenge, and as an invitation.     ;)


more to come...

Yadda wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 9:14am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 8:53am: yadd, you often quote the Bible and clearly have read it. But just as clearly, you really dont understand it. You seem to have missed one of the primary messages of the Bible which is forgiveness. Maybe if you read an english translation it might help. Thank you. I take your comment as a challenge, and as an invitation.     ;) more to come...

If it is a challenge to interpret the bible correctly then go for it. but your lack of forgiveness and a desire to punish anyone and everybody for everything is very Old Covenant.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 8:53am:

yadd, you often quote the Bible and clearly have read it. But just as clearly, you really dont understand it. You seem to have missed one of the primary messages of the Bible which is forgiveness. Maybe if you read an english translation it might help.

longweekend58,

Not at all.

I know the place which forgiveness plays, in God's plan.




The man Jesus, was Jewish, and was Torah observant,
i.e. as a man, Jesus considered himself bound by the law of Moses.

And Jesus was a Torah [law] teacher.

e.g.
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for not obeying the law [given by God] in not putting certain criminals [according to God's law] to death.

Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Jesus also said;

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Which commandments ???

"Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother."
Matthew 19:16-19

All of those commandments, above, were quoted by Jesus, directly from the book(s) of the law, the Torah,
Exodus 20:12-16
Deuteronomy 5:16-20



+++

And the argument can be made that Jesus himself, was the lawgiver to Moses.;

Though Jesus did not manifest himself as a man, to Moses, to the children of Israel, Jesus is and was the lawgiver to Moses.

The Law of Moses was given to Moses, by God [i.e. by Jesus].

That is what Jesus himself implied, and what the Bible says.


John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59  Then took they up stones to cast at him:...

1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.



John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...

John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Jesus said....

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.



+++


Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.



Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 9:26am:

If it is a challenge to interpret the bible correctly then go for it. but your lack of forgiveness and a desire to punish anyone and everybody for everything is very Old Covenant.

longweekend58,

Even in the 'Old Covenant', God's mercy was always extended to us, always offered to us.


Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


As it was also, in the new covenant....

Luke 17:3
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


John 8:10
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


But God's forgiveness and mercy, was never a 'blank cheque', as many Christians today believe, and as many Christians today dearly 'wish' to believe.

Those who believe that God's forgiveness and mercy will fall on all of mankind are sadly mistaken, imo.

God's forgiveness and mercy, is, and always was, joined with a requirement for ongoing repentance and remorse on our part, for our bad behaviour.

That 'message' is there, throughout the Bible

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.



The message that i get from studying the Bible is that there will be mercy for the repentant,
....but a 'stick' for the 'foolish', the unrepentant.

And the underlying message throughout the Bible too, is that if we join ourselves to God, that we should condemn and separate ourselves from oppressors and criminals.
.....and not be tolerant of oppressors and criminals.



Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:...


Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


Amos 5:14
Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
15  Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.


Hosea 12:6
Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.


Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.



In Isaiah, God rebukes the people of Jerusalem, and clearly identifies the sin of the people of that city, as a clear absence of proper judgement against wrongdoers, and criminals.

Speaking of Jerusalem [which was meant to be a holy city, for a holy people.] as an example of where there is no judgement [against criminals]...

Isaiah 1:21
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22  Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
23  Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.



Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.




If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked.


Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.




"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann

Yadda wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 10:45am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 9:26am: If it is a challenge to interpret the bible correctly then go for it. but your lack of forgiveness and a desire to punish anyone and everybody for everything is very Old Covenant. longweekend58, Even in the 'Old Covenant', God's mercy was always extended to us, always offered to us. Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. As it was also, in the new covenant.... Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. But God's forgiveness and mercy, was never a 'blank cheque', as many Christians today believe, and as many Christians today dearly 'wish' to believe. Those who believe that God's forgiveness and mercy will fall on all of mankind are sadly mistaken, imo. God's forgiveness and mercy, is, and always was, joined with a requirement for ongoing repentance and remorse on our part, for our bad behaviour. That 'message' is there, throughout the Bible Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The message that i get from studying the Bible is that there will be mercy for the repentant, ....but a 'stick' for the 'foolish', the unrepentant. And the underlying message throughout the Bible too, is that if we join ourselves to God, that we should condemn and separate ourselves from oppressors and criminals. .....and not be tolerant of oppressors and criminals. Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:... Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. Amos 5:14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken. 15  Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph. Hosea 12:6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually. Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. In Isaiah, God rebukes the people of Jerusalem, and clearly identifies the sin of the people of that city, as a clear absence of proper judgement against wrongdoers, and criminals. Speaking of Jerusalem [which was meant to be a holy city, for a holy people.] as an example of where there is no judgement [against criminals]... Isaiah 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. 22  Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: 23  Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them. Jeremiah 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked. Leviticus 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann

And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?) you have not yet addressed forgiveness or how Jesus fulfilled the law and replaced the death penalty for sin with LIFE.

I stay with my comment that you havent really understood the atonement for sins that was Jesus' death and resurrection.

"I will take fierce revenge on them and punish them with fury. I will take revenge on them, and then they will know that I am the LORD"

Ezekiel, 25:17


Pick whichever translation you like - King James or otherwise.
The message is the same.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 7:24pm:

"I will take fierce revenge on them and punish them with fury. I will take revenge on them, and then they will know that I am the LORD" Ezekiel, 25:17 Pick whichever translation you like - King James or otherwise. The message is the same.

yes but I am pretty sure you dont know what it is!

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 5:31pm:

And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?)

If that is what you want to believe.

I prefer the KJV.







longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 5:31pm:

....you have not yet addressed forgiveness or how Jesus fulfilled the law and replaced the death penalty for sin with LIFE. I stay with my comment that you havent really understood the atonement for sins that was Jesus' death and resurrection.

So we will all have God's gift of spiritual LIFE, if we accept Jesus' death as atonement for our own sin ?

OK.

But, what is God calling us from ?

What is God redeeming us from ?



+++


Matthew 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


longweekend58,

Do you believe, that what Jesus taught, was some 'new' teaching from God ???

That what Jesus taught was a new doctrine from God ?

And that God's law [the law given to Moses], is now of no effect ???


Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


Exodus 23:4
If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
5  If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.


And Jesus ?

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.






longweekend58,

And because all things are forgiven us, by the blood of Jesus, do you believe that we should join ourselves to the wicked [be tolerant of wickedness], because Jesus has made atonement for us ???


What did Jesus himself say ?

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.




Is it ok to join ourselves to those who murder, to those who commit adultery, to those who steal, to those who bear false witness [those who are liars and deceivers], and to those who abuse their parents,
....because we are safe under the atonement blood of Jesus sacrifice ?


Those are all choices which we have to come to, for ourselves.

IMO, we should preach God's kingdom, but as far as is possible, not join ourselves to this world.


John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.





Again, what was Jesus final word on the matter ?

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 13^th, 2011 at 10:43am:

Did the US soldiers who gang raped the young girl in Iraq and then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime get the death penalty?

Except for ALL the press coverage...they probably would have.....AND should have...

The US military uses the death penalty a lot more than civil courts do....

Quote:

The state can not have a 'do as i say, not as i do' approach. It must lead by example.

i agree. i'm going to lock you in my laundry for five years only letting you out into my garden for exercise once a day while raping you in the shower every night the entire time.

also im going to put a gun to your head and tell you to give me a portion of your income every year or i will dispossess your sh!t or and lock you in said laundry for even longer.

governments do it so it must be ok

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:07pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 13th, 2011 at 10:43am: Did the US soldiers who gang raped the young girl in Iraq and then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime get the death penalty? Except for ALL the press coverage...they probably would have.....AND should have... The US military uses the death penalty a lot more than civil courts do....

I'm pretty sure the US military hasn't carried out a death sentence since the 1950s.

Life_goes_on wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:20pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 4:07pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 13th, 2011 at 10:43am: Did the US soldiers who gang raped the young girl in Iraq and then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime get the death penalty? Except for ALL the press coverage...they probably would have.....AND should have... The US military uses the death penalty a lot more than civil courts do.... I'm pretty sure the US military hasn't carried out a death sentence since the 1950s.

"The death penalty under the Uniform Code of Military Justice was reinstated in 1984.  The military death row is located at the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. There are currently seven death row inmates awaiting execution"
As of November 2010...


And the 'last' execution actually carried out was 1961...

Yadda wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

[quote author=longweekend58 link=1307859223/15#22 date=1308036665] And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?)

If that is what you want to believe.

I prefer the KJV.



it is an unequivocal fact. I dont know why you cant use a modern translation in actual ENGLISH.

Yadda wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 5:31pm: And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?) If that is what you want to believe. I prefer the KJV. longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 5:31pm: ....you have not yet addressed forgiveness or how Jesus fulfilled the law and replaced the death penalty for sin with LIFE. I stay with my comment that you havent really understood the atonement for sins that was Jesus' death and resurrection. So we will all have God's gift of spiritual LIFE, if we accept Jesus' death as atonement for our own sin ? OK. But, what is God calling us from ? What is God redeeming us from ? +++ Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. longweekend58, Do you believe, that what Jesus taught, was some 'new' teaching from God ??? That what Jesus taught was a new doctrine from God ? And that God's law [the law given to Moses], is now of no effect ??? Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Exodus 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. 5  If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him. And Jesus ? Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38  This is the first and great commandment. 39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. longweekend58, And because all things are forgiven us, by the blood of Jesus, do you believe that we should join ourselves to the wicked [be tolerant of wickedness], because Jesus has made atonement for us ??? What did Jesus himself say ? Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Is it ok to join ourselves to those who murder, to those who commit adultery, to those who steal, to those who bear false witness [those who are liars and deceivers], and to those who abuse their parents, ....because we are safe under the atonement blood of Jesus sacrifice ? Those are all choices which we have to come to, for ourselves. IMO, we should preach God's kingdom, but as far as is possible, not join ourselves to this world. John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Again, what was Jesus final word on the matter ? Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You really, really need to read Romans again and perhaps to make it clearer since it is a heavy book, try a more modern translation. You seem to have a very limited understanding of the Atonement and the fulfillment of the Law of Moses meaning it DOES NOT APPLY any more. or do you go to church on saturday?

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:07pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 13th, 2011 at 10:43am: Did the US soldiers who gang raped the young girl in Iraq and then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime get the death penalty? Except for ALL the press coverage...they probably would have.....AND should have... The US military uses the death penalty a lot more than civil courts do....

actually the US military courts do not give out the death penalty nor does any US Fedearl court. it is the sole province of SOME US states.

Cliff Richard wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:10pm:

Quote: The state can not have a 'do as i say, not as i do' approach. It must lead by example. i agree. i'm going to lock you in my laundry for five years only letting you out into my garden for exercise once a day while raping you in the shower every night the entire time. also im going to put a gun to your head and tell you to give me a portion of your income every year or i will dispossess your sh!t or and lock you in said laundry for even longer. governments do it so it must be ok

What did i do wrong? or right...





Cliff Richard wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:10pm:

i'm going to lock you in my laundry for five years only letting you out into my garden for exercise once a day while raping you in the shower every night

Call me  ;)

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:51pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 4:07pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 13th, 2011 at 10:43am: Did the US soldiers who gang raped the young girl in Iraq and then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime get the death penalty? Except for ALL the press coverage...they probably would have.....AND should have... The US military uses the death penalty a lot more than civil courts do.... actually the US military courts do not give out the death penalty nor does any US Fedearl court. it is the sole province of SOME US states.

The sensible states in this country which listen to the wishes of the people in crime and punishment.

If you commit murder in this country, you likely face death row - and that is EXACTLY what the American people want.

Remember, politicians are there to serve the people.
It is a Government of the People by the people for the people.

America is a country where a select few people are a whole lot 'more equal' than the rest!

This is because those select few have the bizarre right to accumulate obscene wealth by wantonly exploiting the labour and debt of the rest!

Equitist wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 8:37pm:

America is a country where a select few people are a whole lot 'more equal' than the rest! This is because those select few have the bizarre right to accumulate obscene wealth by wantonly exploiting the labour and debt of the rest!

Hardly related to the topic love.

People who kill are put on Death Row.
Yep in tends to be the blacks, Mexicans and white trash but that is life.

Deal with it.

Equitist wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 8:37pm:

America is a country where a select few people are a whole lot 'more equal' than the rest! This is because those select few have the bizarre right to accumulate obscene wealth by wantonly exploiting the labour and debt of the rest!

R/P 10%: The ratio of the average income of the richest 10% is to the poorest 10%
R/P 20%: The ratio of average income of the richest 20% is to the poorest 20%

                        10% 20%
United States      15.9      8.4

Compare to Australia:
               
                 10%       20%
Australia      12.5      7      

Not that much different

Now, compare both to Bolivia
                 
                10%            20%                    

Bolivia      168.1      42.3      


The so called poverty line in both of our countries is a smacking joke, too. Could you stop with the hyperbole for five seconds?

whites get the death penalty more in proportion to their number of murders in the u.s.a as far as i know

this is mainly due to the fact that when whites commit murders (they commit, far, far, far fewer than NAMs) they commit them in the first degree

not just "he stepped on muh shoes officuh what do you expect"

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 8:29pm:

Remember, politicians are there to serve the people. It is a Government of the People by the people for the people.

What say the people?

Has the death penalty been increasing or decreasing in use across the world?

To quote one of my work colleagues to a different query I raised at the time but equally apt now -

"Rest of the world don't mean jack sh*t. This is America, this right here, right now USA"

The AMERICAN people for whom this system governs are strongly in favour of the death penalty and such is how it is.

District Attorneys run for re-election, over-turning the will of the people ain't a good look.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

To quote one of my work colleagues to a different query I raised at the time but equally apt now - "Rest of the world don't mean jack sh*t. This is America, this right here, right now USA" The AMERICAN people for whom this system governs are strongly in favour of the death penalty and such is how it is. District Attorneys run for re-election, over-turning the will of the people ain't a good look.

that alone is a travesty of judicial principles. an independant judiciary cannto exist when it has to be elected by the people.

jame-e wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 9:57pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 8:29pm: Remember, politicians are there to serve the people. It is a Government of the People by the people for the people. What say the people? Has the death penalty been increasing or decreasing in use across the world?

Has the death penalty been increasing or decreasing in use across the world America?

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:11am: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 5:31pm: And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?) If that is what you want to believe. I prefer the KJV. it is an unequivocal fact. I dont know why you cant use a modern translation in actual ENGLISH.

Is that so.






"This table compares various verses in the KJV, NIV, NASB, and NWT. The term "OMITTED" is used when either the phrase or the verse in question is omitted. This table is a very small sampling..."
http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/various.html


"The text shown here is the King James Version. Words, sentences, or entire verses in strikethrough illustrate portions that have been removed from the text underlying the KJV New Testament. Not all modern versions are the same. Sometimes the ESV will include a word the NIV doesn't, or the NASB might omit a phrase the NIV and NRSV both retain, etc... but for the most part, the examples below represent nearly all of the popular modern versions. (Psudeo-KJV versions such as the NKJV are far more subtle and are a different case. See the articles section for NKJV examinations.)
Compare your modern version and see what the KJV has that yours doesn't."
http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html


A small sample of verse comparison between the KJV, and the 'New' King James Bible...


Acts 4:27-KJV reads, "Thy holy child, Jesus." NKJV, NASV and RSV change "holy child" to "holy servant."

Acts 8:9-KJV reads, "bewitched the people." NKJV and NASV change "bewitched" to "astonished." NIV and RSV change "bewitched" to "amazed."

Romans 4:25-KJV reads, "Who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." NKJV and NASV change "for" to "because of." (Even the NIV and RSV use the correct word, "for").

Colossians 3:2-KJV reads, "Set your affection on things above." NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV change "affection" to "mind."

2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best."

Isaiah 11:3-the entire phrase, "And shall make Him of quick understanding" in the KJV is eliminated in the NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV.

Isaiah 66:5-the wonderful phrase, "But He shall appear to your joy" in the KJV disappears without explanation from NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV.

etc, etc, etc

http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/reynolds-nkjv.html



"Bible Versions and the Preeminence of Christ
This table compares various verses in the KJV, NIV, NASB, and NWT. The term "OMITTED" is used when either the phrase or word in question is omitted. This is just a small sample of over 200 verses."
http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/preeminence.html



"Most people believe the new versions are just "harmless" updating of words and made easier to understand.
...The new versions "take away" complete verses from the words of God.
...The average reader would never know it happened!"
http://www.av1611.org/biblevs.html
http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html






longweekend58,

Why do 'new', 'modern', bible versions use new words which clearly change the intent and the meaning of particular bible verses ???

And why do 'new', 'modern', bible versions in some instances, completely OMIT some verses [verses present in the KJV bible] ???

And do you personally count these many discrepancies in the 'new', 'modern', bible versions as 'immaterial' ???



e.g.
KJV, NIV, NASB, NWT
Lk 4:8        Get thee behind me, Satan.        OMITTED        OMITTED        OMITTED
Ac 23:9        Let us not fight against God.        OMITTED        OMITTED        OMITTED
Re 21:24        And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it.        The nations will walk by its light.        And the nations shall walk by its light.        And the nations will walk by means of its light.

from...
http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/various.html







Quote:

[quote] [quote] And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?)

If that is what you want to believe.

I prefer the KJV.

[/quote]


it is an unequivocal fact.

I dont know why you cant use a modern translation in actual ENGLISH.

[/quote]



longweekend58,

Do you understand why i prefer the KJV now ???




longweekend58,

Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 4:46pm: Yadda wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:11am: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 5:31pm: And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?) If that is what you want to believe. I prefer the KJV. it is an unequivocal fact. I dont know why you cant use a modern translation in actual ENGLISH. Is that so. "This table compares various verses in the KJV, NIV, NASB, and NWT. The term "OMITTED" is used when either the phrase or the verse in question is omitted. This table is a very small sampling..." http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/various.html http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html A small sample of verse comparison between the KJV, and the 'New' King James Bible... Acts 4:27-KJV reads, "Thy holy child, Jesus." NKJV, NASV and RSV change "holy child" to "holy servant." Acts 8:9-KJV reads, "bewitched the people." NKJV and NASV change "bewitched" to "astonished." NIV and RSV change "bewitched" to "amazed." Romans 4:25-KJV reads, "Who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." NKJV and NASV change "for" to "because of." (Even the NIV and RSV use the correct word, "for"). Colossians 3:2-KJV reads, "Set your affection on things above." NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV change "affection" to "mind." 2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best." Isaiah 11:3-the entire phrase, "And shall make Him of quick understanding" in the KJV is eliminated in the NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV. Isaiah 66:5-the wonderful phrase, "But He shall appear to your joy" in the KJV disappears without explanation from NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV. etc, etc, etc http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/reynolds-nkjv.html "Bible Versions and the Preeminence of Christ This table compares various verses in the KJV, NIV, NASB, and NWT. The term "OMITTED" is used when either the phrase or word in question is omitted. This is just a small sample of over 200 verses." http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/preeminence.html http://www.av1611.org/biblevs.html http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html longweekend58, And do you personally count these many discrepancies in the 'new', 'modern', bible versions as 'immaterial' ??? e.g. KJV, NIV, NASB, NWT Ac 23:9        Let us not fight against God.        OMITTED        OMITTED        OMITTED from... http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/various.html Quote: [quote] [quote] And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?) If that is what you want to believe. I prefer the KJV.

it is an unequivocal fact.

I dont know why you cant use a modern translation in actual ENGLISH.

[/quote]



longweekend58,

Do you understand why i prefer the KJV now ???




longweekend58,

Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.



[/quote]

I've always understood why you prefer the KJV. It was very clear from day one. most narrow-minded law-dependant people do. It is interesting that you use the KJV as your source material and then compare other translations to it. it has yet to occur to you that perhaps the modern translations are more accurate and that the english words used in these translations are the CURRENT meanings of these words? when you talk about 'discrepancies' you do so by making the invalid assumption that the KJV is error-free. it is not. these 'omitted' sentences are a difficulty for you but if you did some research you would that these bits arent in the most reliable early manuscripts. Rather than make the assumption that there is something evil in modern translations you would do better to assume that modern scholars are attempting to be very very accurate. and isnt the Word of God worth our BEST scholarship and our most accurate use of current langauge? take for example 'and the greatest of these is charity'. completely and totally inaccurate simply because 'charity' no longer means 'love'. when language morphs then translations of the Bible have to as well otherwise the Bible can end up inadvertently saying the wrong things because the languages has moved. And by the way, before you come up with the claim that the KJV is the only 'inspired' translation keep in mind that Ive seen an original 1611 print. It ISNT the KJV you have today as that is in itself a revision of the original.

Quote:

Acts 4:27-KJV reads, "Thy holy child, Jesus." NKJV, NASV and RSV change "holy child" to "holy servant." Acts 8:9-KJV reads, "bewitched the people." NKJV and NASV change "bewitched" to "astonished." NIV and RSV change "bewitched" to "amazed." Romans 4:25-KJV reads, "Who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." NKJV and NASV change "for" to "because of." (Even the NIV and RSV use the correct word, "for"). Colossians 3:2-KJV reads, "Set your affection on things above." NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV change "affection" to "mind." 2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best."

The above proves my point. in every single case where you complain about the changes in wording the reason is due to the changes in the meaning of english language.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

You really, really need to read Romans again and perhaps to make it clearer since it is a heavy book, try a more modern translation. You seem to have a very limited understanding of the Atonement and the fulfillment of the Law of Moses meaning it DOES NOT APPLY any more.

We are not, and can never be, justified by the law.

That is true.



But are you suggesting that God's law, is of no effect ?

Righteousness, is the law.

Isn't it ?


Isaiah 58:1
Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
2  Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

Isaiah 59:1
Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2  But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
3  For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4  None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

Jeremiah 9:1
Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
2  Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
3  And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
4  Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
5  And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
6  Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.


Why did Jesus teach his disciples to respect Moses law ???

Weren't Jesus disciples, the members of Jesus 'church' ???

Again, why did Jesus teach his disciples to respect Moses law ???


Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


FACT;
Jesus was a Torah law teacher.

Q.
Why ???








longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

.....or do you go to church on saturday?

Did Jesus keep the Sabbath ?

Or was Jesus a '1st day of the week' guy ?

The purpose of the Sabbath was that it was to be a day of rest and contemplation [meditation].

How do we keep Sunday ?





Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.


Are we a part of a worldly church [which has instituted a new day of worship, Sunday] ?

Or, are we God's children ?

How can we tell ?

"Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep...for it is a sign between me and you"




Sunday worship ???



Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Exodus 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Just as I thought... you are still stuck in LAW and dont understand that it has been fulfilled and is of NO AFFECT on new convenant christians. and the sabbath is SATURDAY - not sunday.

BTW you dont have to copy and past large screeds of scripture to make your case. you can do actually make your point in shorter form!

Quote:

Why did Jesus teach his disciples to respect Moses law ??? Weren't Jesus disciples, the members of Jesus 'church' ??? Again, why did Jesus teach his disciples to respect Moses law ???

This shouldnt be complex but you make it so.

A) Jesus was raised and lived UNDER THE LAW. prior to His death and resurrection the Law was in effect. Therfore He obviously was required to obey the Law and those that followed Him likewise

B) Jesus didnt form a 'church'

C) His death and resurrection FULFILLED the Law and made it of no effect to believers. That is the essence of the New Covenant.

You are SDA.... of course. it all makes sense now!

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 9:01am:

Quote: Acts 4:27-KJV reads, "Thy holy child, Jesus." NKJV, NASV and RSV change "holy child" to "holy servant." Acts 8:9-KJV reads, "bewitched the people." NKJV and NASV change "bewitched" to "astonished." NIV and RSV change "bewitched" to "amazed." Romans 4:25-KJV reads, "Who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." NKJV and NASV change "for" to "because of." (Even the NIV and RSV use the correct word, "for"). Colossians 3:2-KJV reads, "Set your affection on things above." NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV change "affection" to "mind." 2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best." The above proves my point. in every single case where you complain about the changes in wording the reason is due to the changes in the meaning of english language.

longweekend58,

You see one thing, and yet, i see something completely different.

Why is that ?


e.g.
Take one of the verse examples above....

2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best."


Should we seek to, "Study to shew [ourselves] approved unto God."  ???
OR,
Should we merely seek to, "study" to "do [our] best."  ???



longweekend58,

I see a world of difference in those two differing forms of words.

The form of words used in the KJV accord perfectly with the sentiment expressed in this following verse;

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


Whereas,
....the form of words used in the NIV and RSV make the seeking of mankind's own accomplishment(s) [his very self justification], the prime importance, and the emphasis.

Can't you see the difference ???

Can't you see the 'humanist' [God hating] influence, which is being expressed in the NIV and RSV form of words being used ???

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 9:34am:

Quote: Why did Jesus teach his disciples to respect Moses law ??? Weren't Jesus disciples, the members of Jesus 'church' ??? Again, why did Jesus teach his disciples to respect Moses law ??? This shouldnt be complex but you make it so. A) Jesus was raised and lived UNDER THE LAW. prior to His death and resurrection the Law was in effect. Therfore He obviously was required to obey the Law and those that followed Him likewise B) Jesus didnt form a 'church' C) His death and resurrection FULFILLED the Law and made it of no effect to believers. That is the essence of the New Covenant.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 10:01am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 9:01am: Quote: Acts 4:27-KJV reads, "Thy holy child, Jesus." NKJV, NASV and RSV change "holy child" to "holy servant." Acts 8:9-KJV reads, "bewitched the people." NKJV and NASV change "bewitched" to "astonished." NIV and RSV change "bewitched" to "amazed." Romans 4:25-KJV reads, "Who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." NKJV and NASV change "for" to "because of." (Even the NIV and RSV use the correct word, "for"). Colossians 3:2-KJV reads, "Set your affection on things above." NKJV, NASV, NIV and RSV change "affection" to "mind." 2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best." The above proves my point. in every single case where you complain about the changes in wording the reason is due to the changes in the meaning of english language. longweekend58, You see one thing, and yet, i see something completely different. Why is that ? e.g. Take one of the verse examples above.... 2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best." Should we seek to, "Study to shew [ourselves] approved unto God."  ??? OR, Should we merely seek to, "study" to "do [our] best."  ??? longweekend58, I see a world of difference in those two differing forms of words. The form of words used in the KJV accord perfectly with the sentiment expressed in this following verse; Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Whereas, ....the form of words used in the NIV and RSV make the seeking of mankind's own accomplishment(s) [his very self justification], the prime importance, and the emphasis. Can't you see the difference ??? Can't you see the 'humanist' [God hating] influence, which is being expressed in the NIV and RSV form of words being used ???

Im not going to continue debating this with you, Yadda. as an SDA you have a deeply flawed understanding of the new covenent and your uncritical use of the KJV and your rather ridiculous statement about 'God-hating' translators means your mind is closed.  it is the nature of a cult to presume evil-intent on anyone that challenges their beliefs. and oddly enough, it is a very very common attribute of cults to demand the use of the KJV exclusively. The reasons is that the KJVs language is difficult to understand nowadays and thus is much easier to be misinterpreted and for false doctrine to be taught to the (unfortunately) uncritical masses.

Enjoy 'church' on saturday. the rest of us have been freed from the condemnation of the Law and moved into the New Convenant which Jesus bought with His blood and which includes freedom from the law of the sabbath.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 9:36am:

You are SDA.... of course. it all makes sense now!

Because i respect scripture.

Because i seek guidance in my journey, from scripture.

Because scripture confirms that we should keep the Sabbath, you are sure, that i am a Seventh Day Adventist ?


Sorry, wrong.

I do not have an association with that church.

And, i have never had an association with that church.



I am merely someone who seeks guidance in my journey, from God's word.

And i DO look upon God's word as something very, very, special.

That is my grievous 'fault' longweekend58 .     ;D


Do you read the bible often longweekend58 ???






"The Bible will keep you from sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible."
Dwight L. Moody (American Evangelist, 1837-1899)

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 10:15am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 9:36am: You are SDA.... of course. it all makes sense now! Because i respect scripture. Because i seek guidance in my journey, from scripture. Because scripture confirms that we should keep the Sabbath, you are sure, that i am a Seventh Day Adventist ? Sorry, wrong. I do not have an association with that church. And, i have never had an association with that church. I am merely someone who seeks guidance in my journey, from God's word. And i DO look upon God's word as something very, very, special. That is my grievous 'fault' longweekend58 .     ;D Do you read the bible often longweekend58 ??? "The Bible will keep you from sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible." Dwight L. Moody (American Evangelist, 1837-1899)

so where do you go to church? what denomination? and just to avoid being silly, dont assume someone with a different viewpoint to you doesnt read the Bible. I read it daily. NKJV actually.

As a baby, i was christened as an Anglican.

Many years ago [as i was forming my beliefs], i tried a number of churches.

But i was a bible student even then, and i 'didn't fit'.


The best way to describe myself today, would be to say that i am non-denominational Christian.

But i clearly, i am not a member of your Church, so you can safely categorise me as 'a member of a cult'.

Right ?    ;D



Jesus said...
"...thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."
Revelation 2:6
Revelation 2:15

Nicolaitans???

'Nicolaitan', refers to those who [Nico] 'rule over' or 'conquer', and [the laity] 'the people'.

Jesus in Revelation, and, in the Gospels, said that he hated those hypocrites, who use the authority of 'religion' [a false, worldly 'spirituality'], to rule over men.

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Popes???

'Papa'?


"....And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
"...But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
Matthew 23:1-13

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


But you know all of this longweekend58,
....because you read the Bible daily.




+++

I am not a member of your Church.

What if i am accepted of God longweekend58, does that count for anything in your Church ?



Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2  He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3  He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4  In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5  He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.



+++



Hosea 4:1
Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 11:08am:

As a baby, i was christened as an Anglican. Many years ago [as i was forming my beliefs], i tried a number of churches. But i was a bible student even then, and i 'didn't fit'. The best way to describe myself today, would be to say that i am non-denominational Christian. But i clearly, i am not a member of your Church, so you can safely categorise me as 'a member of a cult'. Right ?    ;D Jesus said... "...thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." Revelation 2:6 Revelation 2:15 Nicolaitans??? 'Nicolaitan', refers to those who [Nico] 'rule over' or 'conquer', and [the laity] 'the people'. Jesus in Revelation, and, in the Gospels, said that he hated those hypocrites, who use the authority of 'religion' [a false, worldly 'spirituality'], to rule over men. Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Popes??? 'Papa'? "....And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." "...But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matthew 23:1-13 John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. But you know all of this longweekend58, ....because you read the Bible daily. +++ I am not a member of your Church. What if i am accepted of God longweekend58, does that count for anything in your Church ? Psalms 15:1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? 2  He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart. 3  He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour. 4  In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not. 5  He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. +++ Hosea 4:1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.

which means you dont attend a church at all? that is not healthy.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

which means you dont attend a church at all? that is not healthy.

It is not healthy for Israel [the Jewish people] either, to be shunned and treated as a pariah, a scapegoat, by the world community.

Because men hate Israel [God's people], does that mean that God hates, has forsaken Israel [his people] ???

Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people?....
...
25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


If all of the world would come against Israel, and condemn Israel, should i fear what man can do, or should i fear God ???



Psalms 85:8-11



Isaiah 40:1
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2  Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4  Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5  And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
6  The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
7  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.



Isaiah 41:8-14

Isaiah 43:1-7

Isaiah 44:1-8

Isaiah 54:4-8

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 11:52am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 11:14am: which means you dont attend a church at all? that is not healthy. It is not healthy for Israel [the Jewish people] either, to be shunned and treated as a pariah, a scapegoat, by the world community. Because men hate Israel [God's people], does that mean that God hates, has forsaken Israel [his people] ??? Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people?.... ... 25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: If all of the world would come against Israel, and condemn Israel, should i fear what man can do, or should i fear God ??? Psalms 85:8-11 Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2  Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4  Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5  And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6  The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 41:8-14 Isaiah 43:1-7 Isaiah 44:1-8 Isaiah 54:4-8

to what question was that an answer? I asked if you attend a church and your response was this off-topic diatribe. when yu dont attend a church you end up losing the plot of Gods continuing work in His people. you should be attending a church.

Quote:

which means you dont attend a church at all? that is not healthy.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 12:01pm:

I asked if you attend a church and your response was this off-topic diatribe. when yu dont attend a church you end up losing the plot of Gods continuing work in His people. you should be attending a church.

Why ???

I don't see it as [spiritually] healthy to attend a Christian church, in this age.

I will not join myself, with those who have embraced 'Replacement Theology'.

I will not join myself, with those who declare their hatred for the last remnant of God's covenant people.

I will not join myself, with those who have chosen, to appease a philosophy like ISLAM.




Google;
church "anti israel christians"

Google;
christians, church, israel is the scapegoat


Who are God's watchmen ?

Who are they that call themselves by God's name ??? christ-ians ?

Who are the blind ???

Isaiah 56:10
His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11  Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12  Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
.....Isaiah 6:9

John 12:38
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.







If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked.


Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Deuteronomy 32:8
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9  For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Quote:

I don't see it as [spiritually] healthy to attend a Christian church, in this age.

perhaps a read of Heb 10:24.25 is in order which specifically states you SHOULD attend church.

Quote:

I will not join myself, with those who have embraced 'Replacement Theology'.

what on earth is that? sounds like something you invented.

Quote:

I will not join myself, with those who declare their hatred for the last remnant of God's covenant people. I will not join myself, with those who have chosen, to appease a philosophy like ISLAM.

Hmm.. let me count the number of churches that are anti-Israel... not very many and in fact it is very much the REVERSE. You'd know that if you actually attended one and got your information first hand instead of from google.

What is wrong with a modern church that teaches, preaches and practices the Word of God? and please, dont start by saying YOU have all the answers and everyone else is wrong. if that is your position then we have nothing more to discuss and you might as well join wharfy in the conspiracy theory threads.

Quote:

If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked.

I would suggest that despite your years of bible study you really DONT understand grace and redemption - the major theme of the bible.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

Quote: I don't see it as [spiritually] healthy to attend a Christian church, in this age. perhaps a read of Heb 10:24.25 is in order which specifically states you SHOULD attend church.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.



'Replacement Theology' ???

Google it.


'Replacement Theology', is NOT something which Yadda devised, or invented.

It came from the hearts of proud and vain men.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 1:01pm: Quote: I don't see it as [spiritually] healthy to attend a Christian church, in this age. perhaps a read of Heb 10:24.25 is in order which specifically states you SHOULD attend church. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. 'Replacement Theology' ??? Google it. 'Replacement Theology', is NOT something which Yadda devised, or invented. It came from the hearts of proud and vain men.

there is more than one of you right?

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

Quote: If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked. I would suggest that despite your years of bible study you really DONT understand grace and redemption - the major theme of the bible.

If we are all under grace, then what need is there for judgement, of Christians ???

Surely we are all forgiven, all under grace ?

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


Who are the 'adversaries' of God ???




Deuteronomy 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Proverbs 17:15
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.



Its not rocket science.


SATAN tells man,
"You can choose to do whatever you like. You are all God's in your own right. You decide, what is 'right' or 'wrong'."

God tells man,
"You can choose to do whatever you like. I give your body 'life' and the spirit [life force] which motivates your body, comes from me. And there will be an accounting when you die. I set before you a blessing and a curse, good and evil, it is your choice which you will take up."

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 1:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 1:01pm: Quote: I don't see it as [spiritually] healthy to attend a Christian church, in this age. perhaps a read of Heb 10:24.25 is in order which specifically states you SHOULD attend church. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. 'Replacement Theology' ??? Google it. 'Replacement Theology', is NOT something which Yadda devised, or invented. It came from the hearts of proud and vain men.

some support this doctrine, most dont. however, it is hardly a central tenet of scripture demanding you abandon all churches. nor does it come from 'vain and proud' men. Personally i think the doctrine is in error. however, i dont abuse those that beleive it because MANY good men and women over the years have beleived it. Your understanding of dispensational theology and the convenants is sorely confused.

But you still havent answered why you wont go to church when the bible requires it.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 1:39pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 1:08pm: Quote: If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked. I would suggest that despite your years of bible study you really DONT understand grace and redemption - the major theme of the bible. If we are all under grace, then what need is there for judgement, of Christians ??? Surely we are all forgiven, all under grace ? Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. Who are the 'adversaries' of God ??? Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Its not rocket science. SATAN tells man, "You can choose to do whatever you like. You are all God's in your own right. You decide, what is 'right' or 'wrong'." God tells man, "You can choose to do whatever you like. I give your body 'life' and the spirit [life force] which motivates your body, comes from me. And there will be an accounting when you die. I set before you a blessing and a curse, good and evil, it is your choice which you will take up."

well I was certainly right. you have little to no understanding of grace and redemption.  you really do need to read Romans - perhaps with a good commentary to help over the complex bits like 'there is therefore now no condemnation...' I dont think you get it that the grace of God COVERS sins and that that Grace was required ONCE. too complex to discuss on this forum but you need to do an indepth study on grace and redemption. Get a few books on the topic. if all; you accept is your OWN understanding then there is a very good chance you will get it wrong as I think you have.

Quote:

God tells man, "You can choose to do whatever you like. I give your body 'life' and the spirit [life force] which motivates your body, comes from me. And there will be an accounting when you die. I set before you a blessing and a curse, good and evil, it is your choice which you will take up."

that is a very poor explanation, simplistic to its core and missing the divine elements of grace and redemption.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 11:07pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:07pm: To quote one of my work colleagues to a different query I raised at the time but equally apt now - "Rest of the world don't mean jack sh*t. This is America, this right here, right now USA" The AMERICAN people for whom this system governs are strongly in favour of the death penalty and such is how it is. District Attorneys run for re-election, over-turning the will of the people ain't a good look. that alone is a travesty of judicial principles. an independant judiciary cannto exist when it has to be elected by the people.

Yeah who would have though eh?
A District Attorney system where they are answerable to the people for whom they serve?

How novel.

However on death penalty cases, as you know, it goes all the way up to the Supreme Court if necessary who are not elected by the public by appointed based on their service.

The death penalty has MAJORITY SUPPORT in this country.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 1:50pm:

Quote: God tells man, "You can choose to do whatever you like. I give your body 'life' and the spirit [life force] which motivates your body, comes from me. And there will be an accounting when you die. I set before you a blessing and a curse, good and evil, it is your choice which you will take up." that is a very poor explanation, simplistic to its core and missing the divine elements of grace and redemption.

Grace and redemption ?

The answers are all in the OT.



Read about the period of bondage in Egypt.

Read about the scapegoat, being released to wander in the world.    Leviticus 16.

Physical 'Israel', were always a part of a spiritual analogy.

The Bible is a book full of spiritual analogies.

The NT prodigal son parable, etc, etc.

And the parable of the 'talents';

"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."






IMO, our life is all about our making choices, and [the necessity of us to] coming to understand that there are always consequences for the choices we make.



1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


What do we lust after ???

Have we learnt anything in our journey, in this place ???

Have we come to love righteousness ???

OR, do we still love this world [....more than God's righteousness] ???


James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
...
8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.


Grace and redemption ?

What did Jesus say would happen to the 'unprofitable' servant [in the parable of the 'talents'] ???      Matthew 25:30


Understand it.

Our God, is a God of righteousness.


Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.




God, is real.

God is a spirit being.

Men are flesh.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 2:09pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 11:07pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:07pm: To quote one of my work colleagues to a different query I raised at the time but equally apt now - "Rest of the world don't mean jack sh*t. This is America, this right here, right now USA" The AMERICAN people for whom this system governs are strongly in favour of the death penalty and such is how it is. District Attorneys run for re-election, over-turning the will of the people ain't a good look. that alone is a travesty of judicial principles. an independant judiciary cannto exist when it has to be elected by the people. Yeah who would have though eh? A District Attorney system where they are answerable to the people for whom they serve? How novel. However on death penalty cases, as you know, it goes all the way up to the Supreme Court if necessary who are not elected by the public by appointed based on their service. The death penalty has MAJORITY SUPPORT in this country.

Exactly so Andrei.Hicks.

Surely some official [a judge, or DA's] being accountable to the people [he or she serves] is to be preferred, to having such officials appointed by some incompetent 'bureaucracy' ???

Look at the state of 'justice system' in this country, Australia.

The 'justice system' in Australia is dysfunctional.

Street brawling, granny raping housebreakers, murderers, drunk drivers who cause death of innocent people.

Where is the deterrent ???

The 'justice system' in Australia is very sad joke.

If i had my way....
.....i'd be sending our pollies, and judges to prison, for their reckless incompetence and their clear moral corruption.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

If i had my way.... .....i'd be sending our pollies, and judges to prison, for their reckless incompetence and their clear moral corruption.

Pre-election promise....

''There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead."



Post-election, politicians invariably reveal, that the verbal promises which politicians make, are not worth the paper that they are written on.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

Quote: If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked. I would suggest that despite your years of bible study you really DONT understand grace and redemption - the major theme of the bible.

And therein lies the rub.

The New Testament does not preach death to non-believers. It does not teach exclusion, hatred or judgement of others. It does not teach "death to all appeasers", who according to Yadda above, are God's adversaries and will all go to hell.

Paul himself was a reformed zealot. When he says to "abhor that which is evil" and "cleave to that which is good", he is referring to the decisions we make in our own lives. He is not encouraging hatred, scorn and judgement of others - he is advising to do the exact opposite.

Abhoring evil is not about preaching hatred. It's about being firm in your resolve and willingness to forgive. This is a very difficult thing to practice, but it is, I think, the very essence of what Longweekend means by the New Covenant.

How can anyone possibly ignore the following sentence in Romans 12:9: "be kindly affectioned to one another in brotherly love"?

Or: "bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not?"

Or: "for I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

Therefore, the point of Yadda's quote is not to discriminate against others; church-going Christian, Seventh Day Adventist, "replacement theologian", Islam-appeasing, pro or anti-Israel, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or anyone else.

This isn't a problem with the book (or the translation). It's not even a problem with the interpretation - any layman should be able to understand it.

It's a problem with NOT reading the very book you're basing your judgement upon.

The question for me is this: how can self-professed Christians ignore the central message of their own faith?

As the New American Standard Bible says it: "let love be without hypocrisy."

It's easy to play Bible quotes, friends - much harder to live them!

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 3:39pm:

The New Testament does not preach death to non-believers. It does not teach exclusion, hatred or judgement of others. It does not teach "death to all appeasers", who according to Yadda above, are God's adversaries and will all go to hell. Paul himself was a reformed zealot. When he says to "abhor that which is evil" and "cleave to that which is good", he is referring to the decisions we make in our own lives. He is not encouraging hatred, scorn and judgement of others - he is advising to do the exact opposite. Abhoring evil is not about preaching hatred. It's about being firm in your resolve and willingness to forgive. This is a very difficult thing to practice, but it is, I think, the very essence of what Longweekend means by the New Covenant. How can anyone possibly ignore the following sentence in Romans 12:9: "be kindly affectioned to one another in brotherly love"? Or: "bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not?" Or: "for I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Therefore, the point of Yadda's quote is not to discriminate against others; church-going Christian, Seventh Day Adventist, "replacement theologian", Islam-appeasing, pro or anti-Israel, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or anyone else. This isn't a problem with the book (or the translation). It's not even a problem with the interpretation - any layman should be able to understand it. It's a problem with NOT reading the very book you're basing your judgement upon. The question for me is this: how can self-professed Christians ignore the central message of their own faith? As the New American Standard Bible says it: "let love be without hypocrisy." It's easy to play Bible quotes, friends - much harder to live them!

Among the shite, a line of truth.

Yadda is a sinful person, Yadda is a morally challenged person,   ...i carry the same moral burden as everyone else.
....and yet, Jesus loves me.      :)



Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.


Luke 17:3
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.




Paul said....

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


But we would be foolish children [of God], to imagine that wickedness will not be its own reward.


Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Exactly. Forgiveness - no matter how hard it is.

It's not that complicated or esoteric. The message seems pretty clear to me.

The wicked will face judgement - as all do - but not from us.

Forgive, effende, bless Him, bless Him.

Thou art forgiven.

You can go back to church now.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 1:50pm: Quote: God tells man, "You can choose to do whatever you like. I give your body 'life' and the spirit [life force] which motivates your body, comes from me. And there will be an accounting when you die. I set before you a blessing and a curse, good and evil, it is your choice which you will take up." that is a very poor explanation, simplistic to its core and missing the divine elements of grace and redemption. Grace and redemption ? The answers are all in the OT. Read about the period of bondage in Egypt. Read about the scapegoat, being released to wander in the world.    Leviticus 16. Physical 'Israel', were always a part of a spiritual analogy. The Bible is a book full of spiritual analogies. The NT prodigal son parable, etc, etc. And the parable of the 'talents'; "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods." IMO, our life is all about our making choices, and [the necessity of us to] coming to understand that there are always consequences for the choices we make. 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. What do we lust after ??? Have we learnt anything in our journey, in this place ??? Have we come to love righteousness ??? OR, do we still love this world [....more than God's righteousness] ??? James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. ... 8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Grace and redemption ? What did Jesus say would happen to the 'unprofitable' servant [in the parable of the 'talents'] ???      Matthew 25:30 Understand it. Our God, is a God of righteousness. Psalms 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. 5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Jeremiah 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. God, is real. God is a spirit being. Men are flesh.

And you, my friend, are a fool. your theology is badly corrupted by your own thinking. When referring to 'grace' one does not go to the OT as you seem to always do. 'grace' is provided by the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus. Reading your replies confirms that you know next-to-nothing of Grace and Redemption. Have you noticed that you do not even bother to answer any of my comments? You are so fixated on your own 'learning' that you reject anybodys elses doctrine. Trouble is, your doctrine appears to be mainly non-biblical garbage. I cant even get you to discuss the issue. you merely quote tons of scripture - usually no relevant - and then through in a few irrelevant comments.

You very much need to go to church and get your doctrine realigned to the Bible - not YOUR thinking.

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 2:09pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 11:07pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:07pm: To quote one of my work colleagues to a different query I raised at the time but equally apt now - "Rest of the world don't mean jack sh*t. This is America, this right here, right now USA" The AMERICAN people for whom this system governs are strongly in favour of the death penalty and such is how it is. District Attorneys run for re-election, over-turning the will of the people ain't a good look. that alone is a travesty of judicial principles. an independant judiciary cannto exist when it has to be elected by the people. Yeah who would have though eh? A District Attorney system where they are answerable to the people for whom they serve? How novel. However on death penalty cases, as you know, it goes all the way up to the Supreme Court if necessary who are not elected by the public by appointed based on their service. The death penalty has MAJORITY SUPPORT in this country. Exactly so Andrei.Hicks. Surely some official [a judge, or DA's] being accountable to the people [he or she serves] is to be preferred, to having such officials appointed by some incompetent 'bureaucracy' ??? Look at the state of 'justice system' in this country, Australia. The 'justice system' in Australia is dysfunctional. Street brawling, granny raping housebreakers, murderers, drunk drivers who cause death of innocent people. Where is the deterrent ??? The 'justice system' in Australia is very sad joke. If i had my way.... .....i'd be sending our pollies, and judges to prison, for their reckless incompetence and their clear moral corruption.

feel the grace and compassion...

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 3:39pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 1:08pm: Quote: If we join ourselves with the wicked, that is, if we ourselves, tolerate what is wicked, we will be judged with the wicked. I would suggest that despite your years of bible study you really DONT understand grace and redemption - the major theme of the bible. And therein lies the rub. The New Testament does not preach death to non-believers. It does not teach exclusion, hatred or judgement of others. It does not teach "death to all appeasers", who according to Yadda above, are God's adversaries and will all go to hell. Paul himself was a reformed zealot. When he says to "abhor that which is evil" and "cleave to that which is good", he is referring to the decisions we make in our own lives. He is not encouraging hatred, scorn and judgement of others - he is advising to do the exact opposite. Abhoring evil is not about preaching hatred. It's about being firm in your resolve and willingness to forgive. This is a very difficult thing to practice, but it is, I think, the very essence of what Longweekend means by the New Covenant. How can anyone possibly ignore the following sentence in Romans 12:9: "be kindly affectioned to one another in brotherly love"? Or: "bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not?" Or: "for I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Therefore, the point of Yadda's quote is not to discriminate against others; church-going Christian, Seventh Day Adventist, "replacement theologian", Islam-appeasing, pro or anti-Israel, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or anyone else. This isn't a problem with the book (or the translation). It's not even a problem with the interpretation - any layman should be able to understand it. It's a problem with NOT reading the very book you're basing your judgement upon. The question for me is this: how can self-professed Christians ignore the central message of their own faith? As the New American Standard Bible says it: "let love be without hypocrisy." It's easy to play Bible quotes, friends - much harder to live them!

aint that the truth!!

Yadda wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 3:39pm: The New Testament does not preach death to non-believers. It does not teach exclusion, hatred or judgement of others. It does not teach "death to all appeasers", who according to Yadda above, are God's adversaries and will all go to hell. Paul himself was a reformed zealot. When he says to "abhor that which is evil" and "cleave to that which is good", he is referring to the decisions we make in our own lives. He is not encouraging hatred, scorn and judgement of others - he is advising to do the exact opposite. Abhoring evil is not about preaching hatred. It's about being firm in your resolve and willingness to forgive. This is a very difficult thing to practice, but it is, I think, the very essence of what Longweekend means by the New Covenant. How can anyone possibly ignore the following sentence in Romans 12:9: "be kindly affectioned to one another in brotherly love"? Or: "bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not?" Or: "for I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Therefore, the point of Yadda's quote is not to discriminate against others; church-going Christian, Seventh Day Adventist, "replacement theologian", Islam-appeasing, pro or anti-Israel, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or anyone else. This isn't a problem with the book (or the translation). It's not even a problem with the interpretation - any layman should be able to understand it. It's a problem with NOT reading the very book you're basing your judgement upon. The question for me is this: how can self-professed Christians ignore the central message of their own faith? As the New American Standard Bible says it: "let love be without hypocrisy." It's easy to play Bible quotes, friends - much harder to live them! Among the shite, a line of truth. Yadda is a sinful person, Yadda is a morally challenged person,   ...i carry the same moral burden as everyone else. ....and yet, Jesus loves me.      :) Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Paul said.... Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. But we would be foolish children [of God], to imagine that wickedness will not be its own reward. Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

All you ever do is throw down some disconnected bible verses and pretend that this constructs an argument for your position

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 5:30pm:

And you, my friend, are a fool.

I concede.

That is true.






longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 5:30pm:

....your theology is badly corrupted by your own thinking. When referring to 'grace' one does not go to the OT as you seem to always do. 'grace' is provided by the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus. Reading your replies confirms that you know next-to-nothing of Grace and Redemption. Have you noticed that you do not even bother to answer any of my comments?

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.






longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 5:30pm:

You are so fixated on your own 'learning' that you reject anybodys elses doctrine. Trouble is, your doctrine appears to be mainly non-biblical garbage. I cant even get you to discuss the issue. you merely quote tons of scripture - usually no relevant - and then through in a few irrelevant comments.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


Isaiah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
17  O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.


Isaiah 54:6
For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7  For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.





longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 5:30pm:

You very much need to go to church and get your doctrine realigned to the Bible - not YOUR thinking.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:11am: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 5:31pm: And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?) If that is what you want to believe. it is an unequivocal fact.

You have said that modern English translations of the Bible are more accurate [than the KJV].

Do you have an example which clearly demonstrates that unequivocal fact ?




I do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

I believe that the original Bible texts were written by men.

But i do believe that those men were guided, inspired, by the spirit of God.






+++




longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 5:30pm:

You very much need to go to church and get your doctrine realigned to the Bible - not YOUR thinking.

I need to be guided by today's Church ?

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


longweekend58,

Do you imagine that Paul, above, is speaking of 'The Anti-Christ' ???

Do you believe that 'The Anti-Christ' is some future, end time personality, that will be guided by the spirit of SATAN ???

LOL

Such blindness.



2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best."


Q.
Don't MEN today, exalt themselves above God ???

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Such blindness.



longweekend58,

Rather than to study to do what the best of men can do [i.e. to exalt myself], shouldn't i really seek to be guided today, by God's spirit [and not by men] ?

And don't i really need to;

"Study to shew [myself] approved unto God."   ???







Yadda the heretic.



Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2011 at 5:31pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 3:18pm: Street brawling, granny raping housebreakers, murderers, drunk drivers who cause death of innocent people. Where is the deterrent ??? The 'justice system' in Australia is very sad joke. If i had my way.... .....i'd be sending our pollies, and judges to prison, for their reckless incompetence and their clear moral corruption. feel the grace and compassion...

So in your reality there is no place for judgement and justice, beside grace and compassion ?

You would give justice to the victims of criminals and oppressors, by telling the victim [or their family], that we must show grace and compassion, to criminals and oppressors ?

And that is how justice is served,
.....in your reality ???

By forgiving the wicked, and the violent ?








Psalms 33:4
For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.


Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:...


Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


Isaiah 56:1
Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2  Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.


Isaiah 61:8
For I the LORD love judgment,...


Jeremiah 22:3
Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.


Amos 5:14
Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
15  Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.


Hosea 12:6
Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.




How can we deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, without judgement of the oppressor / criminal ?

Yadda wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:53am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 4:46pm: Yadda wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:11am: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 5:31pm: And despite all your lengthy King James quotes ( you do know there are modern english translations that are more accurate, right?) If that is what you want to believe. it is an unequivocal fact. You have said that modern English translations of the Bible are more accurate [than the KJV]. Do you have an example which clearly demonstrates that unequivocal fact ? I do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I believe that the original Bible texts were written by men. But i do believe that those men were guided, inspired, by the spirit of God. +++ longweekend58 wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 5:30pm: You very much need to go to church and get your doctrine realigned to the Bible - not YOUR thinking. I need to be guided by today's Church ? 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. longweekend58, Do you imagine that Paul, above, is speaking of 'The Anti-Christ' ??? Do you believe that 'The Anti-Christ' is some future, end time personality, that will be guided by the spirit of SATAN ??? LOL Such blindness. 2 Timothy 2:15-KJV reads, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God." NKJV and NASV change "study" to "be diligent." NIV and RSV change "study" to "do your best." Q. Don't MEN today, exalt themselves above God ??? 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Such blindness. longweekend58, Rather than to study to do what the best of men can do [i.e. to exalt myself], shouldn't i really seek to be guided today, by God's spirit [and not by men] ? And don't i really need to; "Study to shew [myself] approved unto God."   ??? Yadda the heretic. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

pretty much the only thing you got right.

Quote:

So in your reality there is no place for judgement and justice, beside grace and compassion ? You would give justice to the victims of criminals and oppressors, by telling the victim [or their family], that we must show grace and compassion, to criminals and oppressors ? And that is how justice is served, .....in your reality ??? By forgiving the wicked, and the violent ?

for someone who claims to have read the Bible you clearly didnt understand much of it, especially those pesky passages about forgiveness.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:27am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:53am: Yadda the heretic. pretty much the only thing you got right.

And do you convince me of my sin ?



Acts 24:13
Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:


Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26  Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Yadda wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:20am:

So in your reality there is no place for judgement and justice, beside grace and compassion ? You would give justice to the victims of criminals and oppressors, by telling the victim [or their family], that we must show grace and compassion, to criminals and oppressors ? And that is how justice is served, .....in your reality ??? By forgiving the wicked, and the violent ?

This sounds like a completely new revelation to you, Yadda, which is a bit strange, considering it's - pretty much - the whole point of the New Testament.

In this country, we excercise judgement and justice in the courts.

Revenge, honour killings, kangaroo courts, trial by media, and all the rest - these are antithetical to Christianity and Christian societies.

Yes, it's a fact, sad but true: the Bible advises forgiveness, grace and compassion for all criminals and opressors.

Yadda wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:53am:

I do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I believe that the original Bible texts were written by men. But i do believe that those men were guided, inspired, by the spirit of God.

Good points, Yadda. I agree. The Bible is a compilation of heterogenous texts selected and put together by a committee - the first Council of Nicea.

Many of the non-selected books were destroyed. Some, like the Nag Hamadi texts, were saved from the fire and discovered - like the Dead Sea Scrolls - after WWII.

The Nag Hamadi gospels (the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary Magdalene and others) present Jesus as a mystic. He's not the dour, pious man presented in the New Testament, but a cryptic storyteller with a great sense of humour.

There were no half measures with Jesus. He fasted, went alone into the desert, hung out with the poor and unpopular, and submitted willingly to his torture and execution.

And he forgave his torturers for the most brutal, corrupt and unjust execution of power - his own execution for narrow political purposes.

And I'm sure he meant this to be an example. Jesus did not go around blaming Romans and condemning them all to hell. He publicly forgave them. As Jesus said, "I come not to bring peace, but a sword."

It's a hard truth, Yadda. Jesus did not follow the status quo. His teachings are not easy. As he said, "not all who go in my name shall enter the Kingdom."

The purpose of these quotes is not semantic. They are ways to live life. They are meant to be applied, like all spiritual teachings, in practice.

There are no inerrant words of God. Language is the stuff of mortals. God, wherever and whomever he or she is, lives in our actions.

Karnal wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 12:16pm:

The Nag Hamadi gospels (the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary Magdalene and others) present Jesus as a mystic. He's not the dour, pious man presented in the New Testament, but a cryptic storyteller with a great sense of humour. There were no half measures with Jesus. He fasted, went alone into the desert, hung out with the poor and unpopular, and submitted willingly to his torture and execution. And he forgave his torturers for the most brutal, corrupt and unjust execution of power - his own execution for narrow political purposes. And I'm sure he meant this to be an example. Jesus did not go around blaming Romans and condemning them all to hell. He publicly forgave them. As Jesus said, "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." It's a hard truth, Yadda. Jesus did not follow the status quo. His teachings are not easy. As he said, "not all who go in my name shall enter the Kingdom." The purpose of these quotes is not semantic. They are ways to live life. They are meant to be applied, like all spiritual teachings, in practice. There are no inerrant words of God. Language is the stuff of mortals. God, wherever and whomever he or she is, lives in our actions.

Matthew 27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


Google;
atonement blood two goats, scapegoat




Leviticus 16:7
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8  And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9  And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10  But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.





The world is the wilderness, where the scapegoat must wander...

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27  And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

Deuteronomy 28:64
And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65  And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66  And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

Deuteronomy 28:37
And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.


....how long ?

Luke 21:24

Yadda wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 12:16pm: The Nag Hamadi gospels (the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary Magdalene and others) present Jesus as a mystic. He's not the dour, pious man presented in the New Testament, but a cryptic storyteller with a great sense of humour. There were no half measures with Jesus. He fasted, went alone into the desert, hung out with the poor and unpopular, and submitted willingly to his torture and execution. And he forgave his torturers for the most brutal, corrupt and unjust execution of power - his own execution for narrow political purposes. And I'm sure he meant this to be an example. Jesus did not go around blaming Romans and condemning them all to hell. He publicly forgave them. As Jesus said, "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." It's a hard truth, Yadda. Jesus did not follow the status quo. His teachings are not easy. As he said, "not all who go in my name shall enter the Kingdom." The purpose of these quotes is not semantic. They are ways to live life. They are meant to be applied, like all spiritual teachings, in practice. There are no inerrant words of God. Language is the stuff of mortals. God, wherever and whomever he or she is, lives in our actions. Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Google; atonement blood two goats, scapegoat Leviticus 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8  And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9  And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10  But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. The world is the wilderness, where the scapegoat must wander... Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27  And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. 65  And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: 66  And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: Deuteronomy 28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee. ....how long ? Luke 21:24

was there a coherent statement in there or are you just flicking through your concordance and trying to find passages? what exactly are you trying to say?

Right. What ARE you saying, Yadda?

I read, I googled atonement and scapegoats, I looked up the Bible quotes, I did everything just like you said.

And I still have no new idea what you're talking about.

There are parallels revealed in the Bible, between the historic events which happened to ancient Israel [recorded in the OT], and what is happening to those peoples today.

Which 'peoples' ???

Amos 9:8-9


But you have no need to enquire about such things, of me.

You, the devout, who know these things already.




Isaiah 29:9-14

Amos 8:11

2 Timothy 2:15

Matthew 13:10

Matthew 25:29-30







Yadda the incoherent heretic.





1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Another one who thinks cut 'n paste is writing opinion. Enough with this crap, we too can read, hear and see, stop trying to be a news source we don't need.

As to the sentence he got, it was relevant to where he lived. Trying to compare it to Oz law is ridiculous and pointless.

Apart from which, what has it got to do with you anyway? Did you have to change your travel plans to avoid that penalty possibility? If so, have you really checked the new location out?

A fool and his life are soon parted.

Well, personally, I think it's a denial of my basic human right to kill whomever I wish. It's in the constitution.

Google it, friends.

Yadda wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 4:03pm:

14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Exactly. Your posts are as pearls before swine, Yadda.

Yadda wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 4:03pm:

There are parallels revealed in the Bible, between the historic events which happened to ancient Israel [recorded in the OT], and what is happening to those peoples today. Which 'peoples' ??? Amos 9:8-9 But you have no need to enquire about such things, of me. You, the devout, who know these things already. Isaiah 29:9-14 Amos 8:11 2 Timothy 2:15 Matthew 13:10 Matthew 25:29-30 Yadda the incoherent heretic. 1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

the second time you've been correct.

Karnal wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 12:16pm:

Good points, Yadda. I agree. The Bible is a compilation of heterogenous texts selected and put together by a committee - the first Council of Nicea. Many of the non-selected books were destroyed. Some, like the Nag Hamadi texts, were saved from the fire and discovered - like the Dead Sea Scrolls - after WWII. The Nag Hamadi gospels (the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary Magdalene and others) present Jesus as a mystic. He's not the dour, pious man presented in the New Testament, but a cryptic storyteller with a great sense of humour. There were no half measures with Jesus. He fasted, went alone into the desert, hung out with the poor and unpopular, and submitted willingly to his torture and execution. And he forgave his torturers for the most brutal, corrupt and unjust execution of power - his own execution for narrow political purposes. And I'm sure he meant this to be an example. Jesus did not go around blaming Romans and condemning them all to hell. He publicly forgave them. As Jesus said, "I come not to bring peace, but a sword." It's a hard truth, Yadda. Jesus did not follow the status quo. His teachings are not easy. As he said, "not all who go in my name shall enter the Kingdom." The purpose of these quotes is not semantic. They are ways to live life. They are meant to be applied, like all spiritual teachings, in practice. There are no inerrant words of God. Language is the stuff of mortals. God, wherever and whomever he or she is, lives in our actions.

Is this how Jesus and Christianity is taught nowadays? Or has it always been presented like this?

I ask because i and many others i know think instantly of rules and hellfire etc.

Jesus sounds like a pretty cool dude, why is he not on more t-shirts?

jame-e wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 9:14pm:

Is this how Jesus and Christianity is taught nowadays? Or has it always been presented like this?

Definately not!

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 9:53pm:

jame-e wrote on Jun 18th, 2011 at 9:14pm: Is this how Jesus and Christianity is taught nowadays? Or has it always been presented like this? Definately not!

'Definately not!' - why?

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

Mmmmm, pity.

jame-e wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 9:14pm:

Is this how Jesus and Christianity is taught nowadays? Or has it always been presented like this? I ask because i and many others i know think instantly of rules and hellfire etc. Jesus sounds like a pretty cool dude, why is he not on more t-shirts?

Jesus message was not PC.

Jesus would tell the truth, even when what he was going to say offended people, especially the religious establishment of the day.

And that is why he was hated by them.

Because he spoke the truth, always.

Because speaking the truth, he exposed the religious hypocracy of his critics.



"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."





"And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."


"Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;"


"And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them:"


"And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him"


"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."


"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?"

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

That is just a slanderous accusation.

And nothing more.



Acts 24:5
For we have found this man [Paul] a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
6  Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
7  But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
8  Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him.
9  And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.
10  Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11  Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
12  And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13  Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:





Paul gives an account of himself, as a persecutor of the early church....

Acts 26:9
I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10  Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11  And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12  Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13  At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14  And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15  And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

why can you not just READ the Bible for a change instead of making a mis-interpretation of everything?

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 2:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 18th, 2011 at 11:38pm: Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said. why can you not just READ the Bible for a change instead of making a mis-interpretation of everything?

I am reading the Bible - every time Yadda does Quotes.

I notice this has piqued a nerve with "Christians", but it's not slanderous or misinterpreting - read the Bible, folks! Why do you think Paul wanted to get rid of circumcision? He wanted to turn a Jewish cult into a mainstream Roman religion - and he succeeded.

Karnal wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 3:03pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19th, 2011 at 2:47pm: Karnal wrote on Jun 18th, 2011 at 11:38pm: Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said. why can you not just READ the Bible for a change instead of making a mis-interpretation of everything? I am reading the Bible - every time Yadda does Quotes. I notice this has piqued a nerve with "Christians", but it's not slanderous or misinterpreting - read the Bible, folks! Why do you think Paul wanted to get rid of circumcision? He wanted to turn a Jewish cult into a mainstream Roman religion - and he succeeded.

Thats YOUR interpretation and a rather flawed one especially since the next 300 years saw christians executed by the Romans for their faith. the 'circumcision' issue is clearly explained in the bible that you dont read or understand. It was instituted by God originally and then WITHDRAWN for reasons you will need to find from the bible but is clearly explained.

Instituted by God? What are you - a Muslim?

We've all read the Bible, Longweekend - some more than others. I'm not making an interpretation. Paul is explicit about expanding a small Jewish cult into a church. It was his project, and he was clear and open about it.

What is contentious - and I've agreed that it is - is that followers of an Essene teacher called Yeheshua became, over a few hundred years, pagan worshippers of a god called Jesus the Christ: the Virgin birth, the Trinity; the whole evolution into the universal signifier (God) that a humble Jew became.

Personally, I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher. This is just one of my views. There is also substantial evidence to suggest that Jesus didn't exist at all - that his story was put together from pagan sources such as Dionysis, Isis and Prometheus. The parallels are compelling.

To me, it makes no difference. Millions of Hindus worshop gods like Shiva and Krishna with no evidence of these gods walking the earth. To me, it comes down to how you apply your faith, not the truth of your faith itself.

I don't expect Christians to believe this. Christians are largely obsessed with a reified ideal of truth. Personally, I think truth is what you do with it, but I don't expect anyone to care what I think.

I just hope that you practice what you preach, as this is the most you can ask of anyone. There are many faiths and ways in this world. Pick one, play it well, and respect the choices of others. Everyone is just as in the dark as we are, and doing what they can with what they have.

I really don't think God cares what brand of God you follow.

stop making stuff up karnal

Cliff Richard wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:10pm:

stop making stuff up karnal

Quite right.

Karnal wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:09pm:

Instituted by God? What are you - a Muslim? We've all read the Bible, Longweekend - some more than others. I'm not making an interpretation. Paul is explicit about expanding a small Jewish cult into a church. It was his project, and he was clear and open about it. What is contentious - and I've agreed that it is - is that followers of an Essene teacher called Yeheshua became, over a few hundred years, pagan worshippers of a god called Jesus the Christ: the Virgin birth, the Trinity; the whole evolution into the universal signifier (God) that a humble Jew became. Personally, I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher. This is just one of my views. There is also substantial evidence to suggest that Jesus didn't exist at all - that his story was put together from pagan sources such as Dionysis, Isis and Prometheus. The parallels are compelling. To me, it makes no difference. Millions of Hindus worshop gods like Shiva and Krishna with no evidence of these gods walking the earth. To me, it comes down to how you apply your faith, not the truth of your faith itself. I don't expect Christians to believe this. Christians are largely obsessed with a reified ideal of truth. Personally, I think truth is what you do with it, but I don't expect anyone to care what I think. I just hope that you practice what you preach, as this is the most you can ask of anyone. There are many faiths and ways in this world. Pick one, play it well, and respect the choices of others. Everyone is just as in the dark as we are, and doing what they can with what they have. I really don't think God cares what brand of God you follow.

The fact is that there are many, many people alive today [including ex-moslems], who know that Jesus is real.


EXAMPLE;
A UK woman, Yasmin, says that a spirit being, Jesus Christ, manifest himself, to her [in a 'vision'].
I acknowledge, that Yasmin's claim, is not a 'proof' of her experience.
But does your 'non-experience' in any way dis-prove Yasmin's experience?
[i.e. because YOU have not shared such an experience ??? LOL    ]

"Yasmin, who was raised in the North of England, has been forced out of her town...Brought up in a Muslim family, she converted after having a vision of Jesus...
She fled to another part of Britain, but the attacks soon started again as locals found out about her."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece

It is very threatening for some, to have their perception of reality challenged.

And those who challenge our [or, the] common perception of reality, often experience the ridicule and open hostility of the 'common' man.

John 15:17-19
Galatians 4:29


Nevertheless, there are many people alive today who claim to have had spiritual experiences, which they claim, have convinced them of another reality beyond this one [which we all commonly 'experience'].



If you are an atheist in this age, i would be asking myself why [i have not had any spiritual experience].

Oh yes, that right, because i only believe in what i can see, and what i have experienced myself.

And that that, is the extent of reality, and i am certain of it.
/sarc off

Romans 8:9
....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



Karnal,

IMO, you, and many atheists like you, do not have the humility to imagine that reality, is NOT bounded by your own senses and comprehension.

It is impossible for the carnal mind of a man, to have knowledge ['proof'] of the spiritual.

But hey, go your own way.

Have a nice life.

Walk your path.

Believe what you will.

And we all do.      ;)




Google;
modern muslims visions jesus


2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

Moslems and atheists display very similar 'symptoms'/responses, when confronting Christianity [i.e. responses to the 'Christianity' which is 'revealed' within scripture].

Is that just a coincidence ???

I don't believe that it is just a coincidence.

IMO, both moslems and atheists exhibit a resistance to, and a hatred of, the spirit of God.

i.e.
The God of Israel.

Again, is that a coincidence ???

I don't believe that it is.


Google;
muslims hate Paul because Paul clearly taught Christ's divinity


Paul's testimony...

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow [Paul], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
6  Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
7  But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
8  Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him.
9  And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.
10  Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11  Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
12  And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13  Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:




Paul's testimony...

Acts 26:9
I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10  Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11  And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12  Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13  At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14  And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15  And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Karnal wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:09pm:

Instituted by God? What are you - a Muslim? We've all read the Bible, Longweekend - some more than others. I'm not making an interpretation. Paul is explicit about expanding a small Jewish cult into a church. It was his project, and he was clear and open about it. What is contentious - and I've agreed that it is - is that followers of an Essene teacher called Yeheshua became, over a few hundred years, pagan worshippers of a god called Jesus the Christ: the Virgin birth, the Trinity; the whole evolution into the universal signifier (God) that a humble Jew became. Personally, I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher. This is just one of my views. There is also substantial evidence to suggest that Jesus didn't exist at all - that his story was put together from pagan sources such as Dionysis, Isis and Prometheus. The parallels are compelling. To me, it makes no difference. Millions of Hindus worshop gods like Shiva and Krishna with no evidence of these gods walking the earth. To me, it comes down to how you apply your faith, not the truth of your faith itself. I don't expect Christians to believe this. Christians are largely obsessed with a reified ideal of truth. Personally, I think truth is what you do with it, but I don't expect anyone to care what I think. I just hope that you practice what you preach, as this is the most you can ask of anyone. There are many faiths and ways in this world. Pick one, play it well, and respect the choices of others. Everyone is just as in the dark as we are, and doing what they can with what they have. I really don't think God cares what brand of God you follow.

you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question.

Yadda wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 8:02am:

Romans 8:9 ....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

True. However, you don't need to believe anything to experience the spirit of Christ. This is universal, and open to everyone. If it wasn't, Paul would not have experienced what he did on the road to Damascus.

I'm sure Jesus is real, but there are many kinds of reality in this universe. Like our human understanding of "God", our understanding of "reality" is mutable. Figures like Jesus have left us with some very useful signposts. Our beliefs, convictions and actions are able to turn lead into gold, or gold into lead.

Believe me, I have not produced much gold in my life, but I know it exists. I think we are all capable of finding it, but we need to find it in our own way and in our own time.

It's a very human trait to tell everyone that our own path is the best. Personally, I would prefer people followed their own paths and let us all know when they get to their destination.

Are we there yet?

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 10:29am:

you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question.

You're right, Longweekend. There is no evidence to say that Jesus did NOT exist. But equally, very few historians would claim that there is any evidence to suggest that he did - beyond the testimonies of the gospels. And who wrote them? No one knows.

Historically speaking, this is a problem. To be historically valid, written or archaological evidence must be sourced. This is is the problem 19th century Christians had in defending Christianity from the onlaught of the Enlightenment, particularly after the publishing of Darwin's On the Origin of the Species.

Christian rationalists like C.S Lewis put the story of Jesus down as a myth (with the proviso that it actually happened). For Christian existentialists like Kierkergaard, the very crux of Christianity is that it is not rational, but a leap -

Of faith.

Personally, I never questioned the existence of Jesus until I read Freke & Gandy's the Jesus Mysteries. The parallels between the pagan myths of Osiris, Dionysis and Mithras and the story of Jesus are astounding. Events such as being born of a virgin mother, being born in a cave or cowshed on December 25, priests or "wise men" being present at his birth, riding triumphantly into town on a donkey and having palm leaves placed before him, turning water into wine at a marriage ceremony, dying and being resurrected at Easter, and acting as a human sacfifice to absolve the sins of humanity - all are in the myths of the above pagan gods.

In fact, early church fathers such as Tertullian (160-220 AD) were so worried about these parallels that they proposed the "doctrine of diabolical mimicry": Satan placed these details within pagan myths to confuse future Christians!

But to be honest, I really don't know. Theologians have argued against Freke and Gandy's thesis, among them this:

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/archive/thinking/387a/

I'm with Kierkergaard on this one. Fact is fact, faith is faith, and truth is only important if you're trying to convince someone of something.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I think you should practice what you believe, do it as well as you can, and what you can't do yourself, leave all in the hands of G_d.

Yes, friends, I'm just as in the dark as Yadda or Longweekend or the frien who goes by the name of Cliff Richard. Whomever He or She is, all I can say is this:

God is great!

Quote:

you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question.

I agree longy, the existence of Christ isn't seriously disputed, there's not any evidence that says he 'didn't' live..

Some of the things attributed to him can, and have, been though...

Karnal wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 12:07pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20th, 2011 at 10:29am: you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question. You're right, Longweekend. There is no evidence to say that Jesus did NOT exist. But equally, very few historians would claim that there is any evidence to suggest that he did - beyond the testimonies of the gospels. And who wrote them? No one knows. Historically speaking, this is a problem. To be historically valid, written or archaological evidence must be sourced. This is is the problem 19th century Christians had in defending Christianity from the onlaught of the Enlightenment, particularly after the publishing of Darwin's On the Origin of the Species. Christian rationalists like C.S Lewis put the story of Jesus down as a myth (with the proviso that it actually happened). For Christian existentialists like Kierkergaard, the very crux of Christianity is that it is not rational, but a leap - Of faith. Personally, I never questioned the existence of Jesus until I read Freke & Gandy's the Jesus Mysteries. The parallels between the pagan myths of Osiris, Dionysis and Mithras and the story of Jesus are astounding. Events such as being born of a virgin mother, being born in a cave or cowshed on December 25, priests or "wise men" being present at his birth, riding triumphantly into town on a donkey and having palm leaves placed before him, turning water into wine at a marriage ceremony, dying and being resurrected at Easter, and acting as a human sacfifice to absolve the sins of humanity - all are in the myths of the above pagan gods. In fact, early church fathers such as Tertullian (160-220 AD) were so worried about these parallels that they proposed the "doctrine of diabolical mimicry": Satan placed these details within pagan myths to confuse future Christians! But to be honest, I really don't know. Theologians have argued against Freke and Gandy's thesis, among them this: http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/archive/thinking/387a/ I'm with Kierkergaard on this one. Fact is fact, faith is faith, and truth is only important if you're trying to convince someone of something. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I think you should practice what you believe, do it as well as you can, and what you can't do yourself, leave all in the hands of G_d. Yes, friends, I'm just as in the dark as Yadda or Longweekend or the frien who goes by the name of Cliff Richard. Whomever He or She is, all I can say is this: God is great!

I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question. What is harder to do: write som mythical stories in the distant past or miraculously heal the sick from terminal illnesses and severe disabilitiies. When God does the latter I have no reason (or right) to question the Bible that He wrote. SOmetimes it is MORE than faith.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 2:24pm:

I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question.

Everything should be questioned. This is how we get better at things. If I was a faith healer, I'd be questioning why some leave their crutches in the church, praising Jesus, and others go home disappointed.

Was it Jesus? Was it them? Was it the faith-healer's over-enthusiastic thrust that nearly took out an eye?

Sometimes faith can move mountains. At other times, who knows?

Karnal wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 4:00pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20th, 2011 at 2:24pm: I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question. Everything should be questioned. This is how we get better at things. If I was a faith healer, I'd be questioning why some leave their crutches in the church, praising Jesus, and others go home disappointed. Was it Jesus? Was it them? Was it the faith-healer's over-enthusiastic thrust that nearly took out an eye? Sometimes faith can move mountains. At other times, who knows?

if you prayed for someone to be healed from a terminal illness and 1 out of ten was healed, why would you still question God??? What you call 'faith' is nothing of the sort.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 5:42pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 20th, 2011 at 4:00pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20th, 2011 at 2:24pm: I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question. Everything should be questioned. This is how we get better at things. If I was a faith healer, I'd be questioning why some leave their crutches in the church, praising Jesus, and others go home disappointed. Was it Jesus? Was it them? Was it the faith-healer's over-enthusiastic thrust that nearly took out an eye? Sometimes faith can move mountains. At other times, who knows? if you prayed for someone to be healed from a terminal illness and 1 out of ten was healed, why would you still question God??? What you call 'faith' is nothing of the sort.

hahahahaha

Hang the filth and send a message.