JEWISH and Muslim representatives appealed to Dutch lawmakers not to enforce plans requiring animals to be stunned before halaal and kosher slaughtering rituals.

One cannot condone animal cruelty under any circumstances at any time whatsoever.
However, the Jewish and Muslim representatives should be stunned as well for even accepting animal cruelty as being kosher.

Continued ...



"We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission.

"One of the first measures taken during the occupation (during World War II) was the closing of kosher abattoirs," Dutch Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs added during the debate in The Hague.

Dutch law required animals to be stunned before being slaughtered but made an exception for ritual halaal and kosher slaughters.

The country's Party for Animals (PvdD) which holds two seats in the 150-seat Dutch parliament, has submitted a proposal, if implemented, would see this exception abolished.

Dutch media widely reported that the PvdD's proposal was expected to get a majority nod from parliamentarians.

"It will cause an irreversable fracture in our society," said Ronnie Eisenmann, who leads Amsterdam's Jewish community.

"Changes in the law will do nothing to ease the suffering of animals," he added.

Jewish and Muslim representatives Thursday insisted the ritual slaughter respected the animals' welfare, notably restriction methods used to limit suffering and those slaughtering received expert training.

They did however offer to implement some measures which they said would ease the animals' suffering, especially better controls in abattoirs where ritual slaughters were performed and an improvement in conditions under which animals were being transported.


http://www.middle-east-online.com/ENGLISH/?id=46766

I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they??

cods wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:31am:

I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they??

The Cruelty of Wounding

Birds suffer pain and stress when they are wounded by shotgun pellets. Computer simulation estimates and the observations of ‘rescuers’ on the wetlands indicates that duck shooters wound at least as many birds as they kill outright. Even shooting groups acknowledge that at least one in every four birds targeted will be wounded—amounting to tens of thousands each duck shooting season.

The physical action of a shotgun involves a spray of pellets, and a flying bird can be wounded by even a single pellet. Other birds flying with the target bird can also be wounded.  Depending on the distance between gun and bird it may take a number of pellets to kill a bird outright.  Those downed birds who are not recovered may suffer over long period before recovery or death from their wounds or through predation by foxes

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/factsheets/duck_shooting.php

Quote:

"We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission.

Well, I have a suggestion.  Become vegetarians!

Or starve.

I could not care less about these people.

cods wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:31am:

I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they??

Cods, IF the halaal/kosher method is done correctly, the animal doesn't even notice the incisions...and simply passes out from lose of blood...no stress, no fear.

Wimmera wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:46am:

Quote: "We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission. Well, I have a suggestion.  Become vegetarians! Or starve. I could not care less about these people.

I have often asked.. what would become of the animals if we all turn vegetarian tomorrow..

most would die of starvation. or neglect.

it is normal for us to eat meat.. the caveman ate meat long before he grew wheat...

its just that in this day and age... we should be far more advanced in this.

we dont treat our cats and dogs like this.. and nor we should so these animals deserve respect.where are all these animal rights groups.. like PETA...wheres the noise???

It would seem that the cruelty is due to the failure of the Indo Agricultural dept on inspections, rather than HALAL method of slaughter.


In Indonesia, the MUI allows slaughterhouses to stun the animals before cutting as well as cutting without stunning. What the MUI should do to avoid similar cases in the future is possibly regulate that stunning must be conducted before cutting.

Alternatively, those who stun animals after cutting must make certain that the procedures and equipment can ensure the animals are not distressed, free from pain and die immediately.

This incident clearly demonstrates the failure of the Indonesian livestock services system. In particular, the monitoring and supervision roles of the MUI and Agriculture Minsitry have not been effective.

The system which allows Indonesian slaughterhouses to attain halal certificates valid for two years might need more regular monitoring and inspections.

The lack of monitoring on halal practices in Indonesia has actually been a subject of debate among Muslim Indonesians for a long time.

This incident has upset both Indonesian Muslims and Australians. Most Indonesian Muslims feel that inhumane treatment of animals is neither Islamic in every way nor halal. Therefore, Australia’s support for Indonesia to deal with this issue becomes very important and would be greatly appreciated.

http://m.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/06/09/australian-cattle-exports-indonesia-ban-or-assistance.html

Cods, I have no sympathy for the welfare of people who hang onto stone-age religious practices, be they Jews or Muslims.  So, a good protein deprivation might shoot the message home.  On the other hand, it probably wouldn't - which presents another possible solution, the subject of another thread, perhaps!   ;)

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:50am:

cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:31am: I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they?? Cods, IF the halaal/kosher method is done correctly, the animal doesn't even notice the incisions...and simply passes out from lose of blood...no stress, no fear.

have you seem them do it giz?.. we dont do it like that anymore there must be a reason for that?. I know there is no nice way of killing a beast ,but we can put a man on the moon.... we can do better than this I feel.

BlOoDy RiPpEr wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:02am:

JEWISH and Muslim representatives appealed to Dutch lawmakers not to enforce plans requiring animals to be stunned before halaal and kosher slaughtering rituals.

What's wrong with the pansies of the West. Religious nutters like myself were told we were welcome in the West and so too were our totems. My religious manual says there is nothing wrong with slitting the throat of an animal.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:50am:

cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:31am: I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they?? Cods, IF the halaal/kosher method is done correctly, the animal doesn't even notice the incisions...and simply passes out from lose of blood...no stress, no fear.

As a kid, I watched my uncle (a sheep farmer) kill a sheep in this method

Done CORRECTLY - with a VERY sharp knife - the animal suffers NO pain or stress

This method is standard practice by sheep farmers - in AUSTRALIA - for personal consumption and filling the home freezer

It SOUNDS more gruesome than the REALITY

Wimmera wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:05am:

Cods, I have no sympathy for the welfare of people who hang onto stone-age religious practices, be they Jews or Muslims.  So, a good protein deprivation might shoot the message home.  On the other hand, it probably wouldn't - which presents another possible solution, the subject of another thread, perhaps!   ;)

I understand wimmer but can you imagine these poor countries letting these animal free to roam if they cant sell them or eat them..

education and facilities I am thinking we can do better if we can provide $500.000 fro a school we can see they have proper slaughtering facilities. cant we?

Cods, I don't think it will matter one iota how much money is thrown at this problem.  The nature of this type of beast is to revert to the 'old ways' when nobody is looking.

I am anti-live exports.  I do not believe for a fistful of dollars, Australia should be condoning barbaric animal practices.  Live exports from Australia should cease.  The practice then should be banned worldwide on animal welfare grounds.

Ludwig should stick the boots into Meat & Livestock Australia.  They have known about the disgusting cruelty for a very long time and have done nothing about it.

By live exports, I am referring to the meat trade.

buzzanddidj wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:08am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:50am: cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:31am: I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they?? Cods, IF the halaal/kosher method is done correctly, the animal doesn't even notice the incisions...and simply passes out from lose of blood...no stress, no fear. As a kid, I watched my uncle (a sheep farmer) kill a sheep in this method Done CORRECTLY - with a VERY sharp knife - the animal suffers NO pain or stress This method is standard practice by sheep farmers - in AUSTRALIA - for personal consumption and filling the home freezer It SOUNDS more gruesome than the REALITY

Over the years, I have witnessed many sheep being killed by this method - once they have been caught, cradled and settled by an experienced person, the final stage of the process is quick and apparently painless and stress-free...

I have also witnessed hundreds of (wild) rabbits being quickly and 'painlessly' killed by neck-breaking - unfortunately, this has been mostly after they have been trapped in a leg-trap (which is a particularly-gruesome and painful method of catching any animal)...

Still couldn't bring myself to do either personally...

As for MLA...they have fundamentally failed in their ethical and fiduciary duties - and ought to be forced to compensate their members who have been adversely-affected by their failures (if they do not do so on a voluntary basis)...

A class action may be in order...

Dunno if the Govt can de-register (or take similar action) - but this may prove to be in order too...

Either way, beef farmers may need to create a new representative body from scratch...

Equitist wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:33am:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 9:08am: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:50am: cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:31am: I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they?? Cods, IF the halaal/kosher method is done correctly, the animal doesn't even notice the incisions...and simply passes out from lose of blood...no stress, no fear. As a kid, I watched my uncle (a sheep farmer) kill a sheep in this method Done CORRECTLY - with a VERY sharp knife - the animal suffers NO pain or stress This method is standard practice by sheep farmers - in AUSTRALIA - for personal consumption and filling the home freezer It SOUNDS more gruesome than the REALITY Over the years, I have witnessed many sheep being killed by this method - once they have been caught, cradled and settled by an experienced person, the final stage of the process is quick and apparently painless and stress-free... I have also witnessed hundreds of (wild) rabbits being quickly and 'painlessly' killed by neck-breaking - unfortunately, this has been mostly after they have been trapped in a leg-trap (which is a particularly-gruesome and painful method of catching any animal)... Still couldn't bring myself to do either personally...

I do believe sheep are a more docile beast than a bull/cow the way sheep just lay there whilst being shorn says heaps doesnt it???..

my son shoots wild pigs.. I cant even look at the meant he brings home for his dogs.

China, Korea and the Philippines to name just a few non Muslim or Jewish countries have just as poor a record when it comes to animal cruelty.
Thats why I reckon it should be ok to farm Aussie dogs and transport them live for slaughter despite the unbelievable cruelty they will endure if its ok for cattle farmers to do the same thing in the name of a dollar.

cods wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:52am:

Wimmera wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:46am: Quote: "We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission. Well, I have a suggestion.  Become vegetarians! Or starve. I could not care less about these people. I have often asked.. what would become of the animals if we all turn vegetarian tomorrow.. most would die of starvation. or neglect. it is normal for us to eat meat.. the caveman ate meat long before he grew wheat... its just that in this day and age... we should be far more advanced in this. we dont treat our cats and dogs like this.. and nor we should so these animals deserve respect.where are all these animal rights groups.. like PETA...wheres the noise???

People often make the flawed assumption that there were once cows, pigs, sheep etc running wild, and would simply return to their old ways if we didn't farm them for food.  
While this is partially true, 'wild' stock bears little resemblance to todays domesticated animals.  Cows as we know them never existed in the wild - they were selctively bred from aurochs, which were far too big and uncontrollable to ever be a viable farm animal.  In effect we've created new species, for the sole purpose of being our food, so what's to say they could adapt to life outside of this purpose?

... wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:52am: Wimmera wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:46am: Quote: "We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission. Well, I have a suggestion.  Become vegetarians! Or starve. I could not care less about these people. I have often asked.. what would become of the animals if we all turn vegetarian tomorrow.. most would die of starvation. or neglect. it is normal for us to eat meat.. the caveman ate meat long before he grew wheat... its just that in this day and age... we should be far more advanced in this. we dont treat our cats and dogs like this.. and nor we should so these animals deserve respect.where are all these animal rights groups.. like PETA...wheres the noise??? People often make the flawed assumption that there were once cows, pigs, sheep etc running wild, and would simply return to their old ways if we didn't farm them for food.   While this is partially true, 'wild' stock bears little resemblance to todays domesticated animals.  Cows as we know them never existed in the wild - they were selctively bred from aurochs, which were far too big and uncontrollable to ever be a viable farm animal.  In effect we've created new species, for the sole purpose of being our food, so what's to say they could adapt to life outside of this purpose?

I was thinking more along the lines of food for them and even water.. as you say they are a domestic animal they are not bred to take care of themselves..but I wouldnt know about that... I have just seen sheep that have been lost and their wool is dragging on the ground..imagine all those bulls running wild.

Most of today's animals which are farmed for meat and milk would fail the natural selection process, if suddenly released into the (largely non-existent) wild...

Those released, into the harsh climates that exist in most sparsely-vegetated-cum-populated parts of Oz, would fare particularly-badly...

Although goats seem to have done alright.  See more wild goats in the WA outback than kangaroos.

buzzanddidj wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:30am:

Continued ... "We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission. "One of the first measures taken during the occupation (during World War II) was the closing of kosher abattoirs," Dutch Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs added during the debate in The Hague. Dutch law required animals to be stunned before being slaughtered but made an exception for ritual halaal and kosher slaughters. The country's Party for Animals (PvdD) which holds two seats in the 150-seat Dutch parliament, has submitted a proposal, if implemented, would see this exception abolished. Dutch media widely reported that the PvdD's proposal was expected to get a majority nod from parliamentarians. "It will cause an irreversable fracture in our society," said Ronnie Eisenmann, who leads Amsterdam's Jewish community. "Changes in the law will do nothing to ease the suffering of animals," he added. Jewish and Muslim representatives Thursday insisted the ritual slaughter respected the animals' welfare, notably restriction methods used to limit suffering and those slaughtering received expert training. They did however offer to implement some measures which they said would ease the animals' suffering, especially better controls in abattoirs where ritual slaughters were performed and an improvement in conditions under which animals were being transported. http://www.middle-east-online.com/ENGLISH/?id=46766

Love how they have to throw a bit of WWII war guilt in there just to bolster the argument.
It seems those 6 million didn't die in vein, their deaths have allowed Jews for the rest of time to get away with what ever they see fit from illegal land grabs, formation of ghetto's, starving of the afore mentioned ghetto's & now ritual slaughter.
Is there anything they won't attach this "Guilt" too to get their way?

On a light note ...




http://www.seinfeldcentral.com/images/seinfeld_logo300.jpg



Quote:

Elaine: Excuse me? Excuse me, but I didn't get a meal. Attendant: Are you sure? Elaine: Yes, I'm sure! I would know if a tray of food had been served to me. Attendant: Would you? Ooooh, them's fightin' words, Monroe. Attendant: Well, the only meal left is a kosher meal. Elaine: Kosher meal? I don't want a kosher meal. I don't even know what a kosher meal is. Passenger 1: I think it means when a Rabbi has inspected it, or something. Passenger 2: No, no. It all has to do with the way they kill the pig. Passenger 1: They don't eat pigs! Passenger 2: They do if it's killed right-- under a Rabbi's supervision. http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheAirport.htm

Love how they have to throw a bit of WWII war guilt in there just to bolster the argument.
It seems those 6 million didn't die in vein, their deaths have allowed Jews for the rest of time to get away with what ever they see fit from illegal land grabs, formation of ghetto's, starving of the afore mentioned ghetto's & now ritual slaughter.
Is there anything they won't attach this "Guilt" too to get their way?  
[quote]



That is one of the most disgusting comments I have read on Oz Politics.      

Maeve wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

Love how they have to throw a bit of WWII war guilt in there just to bolster the argument. It seems those 6 million didn't die in vein, their deaths have allowed Jews for the rest of time to get away with what ever they see fit from illegal land grabs, formation of ghetto's, starving of the afore mentioned ghetto's & now ritual slaughter. Is there anything they won't attach this "Guilt" too to get their way?   [quote] That is one of the most disgusting comments I have read on Oz Politics.

Truth is often unpalatable

I didn't see anything untrue in that statement.

Jews and muslims agreeing on something?  :o :o

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 10:41am:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:30am: Continued ... "We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission. "One of the first measures taken during the occupation (during World War II) was the closing of kosher abattoirs," Dutch Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs added during the debate in The Hague. Dutch law required animals to be stunned before being slaughtered but made an exception for ritual halaal and kosher slaughters. The country's Party for Animals (PvdD) which holds two seats in the 150-seat Dutch parliament, has submitted a proposal, if implemented, would see this exception abolished. Dutch media widely reported that the PvdD's proposal was expected to get a majority nod from parliamentarians. "It will cause an irreversable fracture in our society," said Ronnie Eisenmann, who leads Amsterdam's Jewish community. "Changes in the law will do nothing to ease the suffering of animals," he added. Jewish and Muslim representatives Thursday insisted the ritual slaughter respected the animals' welfare, notably restriction methods used to limit suffering and those slaughtering received expert training. They did however offer to implement some measures which they said would ease the animals' suffering, especially better controls in abattoirs where ritual slaughters were performed and an improvement in conditions under which animals were being transported. http://www.middle-east-online.com/ENGLISH/?id=46766 Love how they have to throw a bit of WWII war guilt in there just to bolster the argument. It seems those 6 million didn't die in vein, their deaths have allowed Jews for the rest of time to get away with what ever they see fit from illegal land grabs, formation of ghetto's, starving of the afore mentioned ghetto's & now ritual slaughter. Is there anything they won't attach this "Guilt" too to get their way?

I find myself agreeing with you on this smithy. There are many others not far behind us also that have had a gut-full of the Jew’s crying WW2 at any opportunity just to emphasise their point of view or help their arguments.

I think what happened to certain Jews in WW2 was horrific, but I am over their constant woo-with-me attitudes on everything, especially when they are called into account for their actions and behaviour, and then they start blaming and re-calling atrocities that happened in WW2 at the drop of a hat just to get their own way.

What they doing to the Arabs today in no different to what certain Germans did to them during WW2, and there is no excuse for there behaviour.

I really don’t have any time for them or their hard-luck stories anymore.  You can only tell a hard-luck story so many times before it becomes common place, and people start realising you are only telling it to get sympathy and special treatment.

buzzanddidj wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:41am:

cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:31am: I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they?? The Cruelty of Wounding Birds suffer pain and stress when they are wounded by shotgun pellets. Computer simulation estimates and the observations of ‘rescuers’ on the wetlands indicates that duck shooters wound at least as many birds as they kill outright. Even shooting groups acknowledge that at least one in every four birds targeted will be wounded—amounting to tens of thousands each duck shooting season. The physical action of a shotgun involves a spray of pellets, and a flying bird can be wounded by even a single pellet. Other birds flying with the target bird can also be wounded.  Depending on the distance between gun and bird it may take a number of pellets to kill a bird outright.  Those downed birds who are not recovered may suffer over long period before recovery or death from their wounds or through predation by foxes http://www.animalsaustralia.org/factsheets/duck_shooting.php

I'm sure you could find many many more examples Buzz, however the one thing they all have in common is they are all examples of mans inhumanity to animals.
I would suggest that had the example you gave showing the birds suffering from shotgun pellets was aired on a four corners program in living colour, the public outcry would have been just the same.

cods wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:06am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:50am: cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:31am: I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they?? Cods, IF the halaal/kosher method is done correctly, the animal doesn't even notice the incisions...and simply passes out from lose of blood...no stress, no fear. have you seem them do it giz?.. we dont do it like that anymore there must be a reason for that?. I know there is no nice way of killing a beast ,but we can put a man on the moon.... we can do better than this I feel.

The reason we 'don't do it' like that anymore is SPEED cods, not humanitarian concerns.....just dollars.
The Halaal/Kosher method (and they're pretty much the same) takes at least four times as long, due to only one animal in the killing room, and giving the beast water, calming it etc..

Non Halaal slaughtering is done like a production line....in mass numbers

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 10:41am:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:30am: Continued ... "We are against any form of stunning because it's against our religion," Yusuf Altuntas, president of the CMO -- an organisation that links the Muslim community with the Dutch government -- told a parliamentary commission. "One of the first measures taken during the occupation (during World War II) was the closing of kosher abattoirs," Dutch Chief Rabbi Binyomin Jacobs added during the debate in The Hague. Dutch law required animals to be stunned before being slaughtered but made an exception for ritual halaal and kosher slaughters. The country's Party for Animals (PvdD) which holds two seats in the 150-seat Dutch parliament, has submitted a proposal, if implemented, would see this exception abolished. Dutch media widely reported that the PvdD's proposal was expected to get a majority nod from parliamentarians. "It will cause an irreversable fracture in our society," said Ronnie Eisenmann, who leads Amsterdam's Jewish community. "Changes in the law will do nothing to ease the suffering of animals," he added. Jewish and Muslim representatives Thursday insisted the ritual slaughter respected the animals' welfare, notably restriction methods used to limit suffering and those slaughtering received expert training. They did however offer to implement some measures which they said would ease the animals' suffering, especially better controls in abattoirs where ritual slaughters were performed and an improvement in conditions under which animals were being transported. http://www.middle-east-online.com/ENGLISH/?id=46766 Love how they have to throw a bit of WWII war guilt in there just to bolster the argument. It seems those 6 million didn't die in vein, their deaths have allowed Jews for the rest of time to get away with what ever they see fit from illegal land grabs, formation of ghetto's, starving of the afore mentioned ghetto's & now ritual slaughter. Is there anything they won't attach this "Guilt" too to get their way?

What ghetto's, there are no ghetto's.
"Show me the ghetto's" we all cry.
Where are the starving people?
Why no photos on the front page of Time magazine, showing kids with bare distended bellies and the blowflies hanging off the runny snotty noses that we used to see from Africa?
Where are all the photo's of the starving people taken by the concerned 'impartial' NGO's, or even the Palestinian media which are controlled by the terrorists.
There are none is why.
Not a one.
This is just absolute crap made up by the terrorists to garner Western sympathy from gullable left wingers.
Why can we only see photos of the beautiful fresh food markets in Gaza, the brand new water theme park or the new multi story shopping mall, and the chubby people in them.
Check our the websites of the restaurants advertised on the internet.
They even have a five star for christs sake.
Starving my ass, their last census conducted by the Hamas terrorists in 2006 shows a growing population, and not one consistent with living in a ghetto.
Where are the bodies, or do you think they are making Soylent Green patties out of them and eating them.
As for illegal land grabs, you might care to remember the 4 wars Israel fought to the knife to defend itself from rampaging Arab armies in 1948, 1956, 1967 & 1973.
Do you imagine for one second if Israel had lost any of those wars that Israel would even exist as a nation today?
Or whether those four or five countries invading Israel all those times would not have carved up the entire region for themselves had they won, or do you imagine somewhere in a wet dream that they were going to establish a 'Palestinian' state.
Because the Ottoman's had 1200 long years to do just that very thing, and it never happened.
Do you think the Lebanese keep thousands of these people locked up for stamps behind razor and recently introduced draconian employment laws for Palestinians that make Workchoices look great, or the Jordanians slaughtered thousands upon thousands of them during the Black September massacre of 1970 for something to do.
Or why the Saudi's treat them today as low paid coolies, or the Egyptians until not so long ago would rather aid Israel in keeping the Palestinians locked in their box called Gaza.
Or why the Iraqi's deported the lot of them only a couple of years ago, or the Jordanians tore up all the dual Jordanian/Palestinian passports to keep them out despite the fact that the Jordanian population is right now 60% Palestinian.
Even the King's wife is Palestinian.
So you might want to think again about these 'poor' downtrodden people, because their own Muslim brothers don't want a bar of them with the exception of Iran & Syria who are quite happy to arm these nutters as long as they kill Jews, and of course keep out of their territory.
And if you have a gutful of hearing about the 6 million people sent to their deaths in a systematic and brutal way, empty your stomach because the world will never be allowed to forget so it never ever happens again to another people.

Quote:

And if you have a gutful of hearing about the 6 million people sent to their deaths in a systematic and brutal way, empty your stomach because the world will never be allowed to forget so it never ever happens again to another people.

I knew someone would come back with this sort of rant.
I never said we should forget
I never said it should be ignored
But what has WWII got to do with the ritual slaughter of animals other than to either
A) invoke a sense of guilt & therefore sympathy
or
B) to infur any decision against the ritual slaughter makes those charged with that decision as bad as NAZI'S.

Yes I know all the arguments about the Arabs etc etc etc we hear about them on a weekly basis, & yes they ask for alot of what they get.
But why is everytime someone dares question Israel about new settlements, excessive force,blockades etc etc are they labeled a Jew hater, anti-semite.
Its about time people were allowed to question without guilt being thrown in their faces.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 12:33pm:

Quote: And if you have a gutful of hearing about the 6 million people sent to their deaths in a systematic and brutal way, empty your stomach because the world will never be allowed to forget so it never ever happens again to another people. I knew someone would come back with this sort of rant. I never said we should forget I never said it should be ignored But what has WWII got to do with the ritual slaughter of animals other than to either A) invoke a sense of guilt & therefore sympathy or B) to infur any decision against the ritual slaughter makes those charged with that decision as bad as NAZI'S. Yes I know all the arguments about the Arabs etc etc etc we hear about them on a weekly basis, & yes they ask for alot of what they get. But why is everytime someone dares question Israel about new settlements, excessive force,blockades etc etc are they labeled a Jew hater, anti-semite. Its about time people were allowed to question without guilt being thrown in their faces.

HEAR HEAR !!

I believe we are supposed to think the jews are a protected species.

Not in this camp, they aren't.  No creed is.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 12:33pm:

But why is everytime someone dares question Israel about new settlements, excessive force,blockades etc etc are they labeled a Jew hater, anti-semite. Its about time people were allowed to question without guilt being thrown in their faces.

Possibly because in many cases they are a Jew hater or anti semite smithy, and believe me I'm not referring to you.
But I'm glad you liked the rant though, it's one of my better ones.

I think the reference to WW2 was simply made as a timeline...

To show that the current exemption is a long standing one..

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 2:05pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 12:33pm: But why is everytime someone dares question Israel about new settlements, excessive force,blockades etc etc are they labeled a Jew hater, anti-semite. Its about time people were allowed to question without guilt being thrown in their faces. Possibly because in many cases they are a Jew hater or anti semite smithy, and believe me I'm not referring to you. But I'm glad you liked the rant though, it's one of my better ones.

Yes, anti-semites exist.  It doesn't mean that most who speak out against Israel's actions are, and it doesn't mean that the main defence is calling someone anti-semitic or reminding them about WW2.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 8:50am:

cods wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 8:31am: I am not sure how anyone can do such a barbaric thing to be honest,what sort of people are they?? Cods, IF the halaal/kosher method is done correctly, the animal doesn't even notice the incisions...and simply passes out from lose of blood...no stress, no fear.

Yeah, I can't see why people think a bolt in the head is more humane than being bled out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnjk6S_uzc&feature=player_embedded#t=95s

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Yes, anti-semites exist.  It doesn't mean that most who speak out against Israel's actions are, and it doesn't mean that the main defence is calling someone anti-semitic or reminding them about WW2.

Yeah, when you speak out against terrorists attacking the jews (not just in Israel),  you can speak out against Israel's treatement of terrorists.

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 7:36pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jun 17th, 2011 at 2:10pm: Yes, anti-semites exist.  It doesn't mean that most who speak out against Israel's actions are, and it doesn't mean that the main defence is calling someone anti-semitic or reminding them about WW2. Yeah, when you speak out against terrorists attacking the jews (not just in Israel),  you can speak out against Israel's treatement of terrorists.

I'll speak out against terrorist attacks on jews as I'll speak out against Israel's unproportionate attacks on Palestine.  The calls of anti-semitism doesn't excuse their actions just like it wouldn't excuse the actions of any one here murdering another person because of past atrocities.  And in the end, the slaughter of innocent lives only serves to prolong the dispute.  But it seems you can continue to view every palestinian as a terrorist, if you like.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 7:50pm:

unproportionate

Please explain.

WHat would you accept as a "proportionate" response to 4 open wars and countless terrorsist attacks around the world?

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 7:57pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jun 18th, 2011 at 7:50pm: unproportionate Please explain. WHat would you accept as a "proportionate" response to 4 open wars and countless terrorsist attacks around the world?

International law defines it as: The incidental (i.e., unintended) harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportionate and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated by an attack on a military objective.

Furthermore, you are more than welcome to check out episode 3, season 1 of West Wing, which gives you a great dialogue on Proportionality. I know it's pretty amateur to bring up a fictional dialogue, but nonetheless it was fantastic and well worth a watch.

Are you telling me that the pallos have an identifiable military force in uniform that carries out attacks on Israel and Israel retaliates against civilians rather than target those easily identifiable palestinian military units?

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:05pm:

Are you telling me that the pallos have an identifiable military force in uniform that carries out attacks on Israel and Israel retaliates against civilians rather than target those easily identifiable palestinian military units?

Oh please.  Israel spends the highest proportion of its national budget on defence, and it isn't just for helmets and boots.  And I'm sure, as shown by the 2008 Christmas Gaza conflict that they can distinguish military vs civilian. During that conflict, they recognised several buildings which happened to be apartment buildings, schools and hospitals, as military objectives.  And even though after they called for citizens to be evacuated from those buildings, and that call was not answered by Hamas, they still had an obligation to ensure that they conducted a proportional attack; the onus did not go away.  In the end, Israel is a democratic country with a vast western ideology, and because of that, regardless of how much anger you, and I, have for the actions of Hamas I will always hold Israel to a higher level because they fight to protect the values I cherish as my own.  For them to ignore their duty only means Israel's government is no better than the people they fight.  

I promise you that it sickens me to death to know Hamas has in their political ledger not only the denouncement of Israel but a statement declaring the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jewish people.  That doesn't however mean we go out and start killing palestinian people and draw blood to show superiority.