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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl General Discussion >> General Board >> Is Religion compatible with Evolution? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029 Message started by franfran on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:37am

Title: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:37am

For those who believe literally in the story of Adam and Eve, the answer would be no, but these people would be in the minority. For the majority of Christians, who would see the creation stories in Genesis as being allegories rather than factual accounts, the answer would be yes, religion and evolution are compatible.

Here's one view on the subject:

Quote:

Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said while the Church had been hostile to Darwin's theory in the past, the idea of evolution could be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas.

Father Giuseppe Tanzella-Nitti, Professor of Theology at the Pontifical Santa Croce University in Rome, added that 4th century theologian St Augustine had "never heard the term evolution, but knew that big fish eat smaller fish" and forms of life had been transformed "slowly over time". Aquinas made similar observations in the Middle Ages.

The conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University will discuss Intelligent Design to an extent, but only as a "cultural phenomenon" rather than a scientific or theological issue.

Monsignor Ravasi said Darwin's theories had never been formally condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, pointing to comments more than 50 years ago, when Pope Pius XII described evolution as a valid scientific approach to the development of humans.

Marc Leclerc, who teaches natural philosophy at the Gregorian University, said the "time has come for a rigorous and objective valuation" of Darwin by the Church as the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth approaches. Professor Leclerc argues that too many of Darwin's opponents, primarily Creationists, mistakenly claim his theories are "totally incompatible with a religious vision of reality".

Earlier this week, prominent scientists and leading religious figures wrote to The Daily Telegraph to call for an end to the fighting over Darwin's legacy. They argued that militant atheists are turning people away from evolution by using it to attack religion while they also urge believers in creationism to acknowledge the overwhelming body of evidence that now exists to support Darwin's theory.

The Church of England is seeking to bring Darwin back into the fold with a page on its website paying tribute to his "forgotten" work in his local parish, showing science and religion need not be at odds.

link to original article

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:37am

And here's another:

Quote:

Are those incompatible positions: to believe in God and to believe in evolution?

[Dawkins:] No, I don’t think they’re incompatible if only because there are many intelligent evolutionary scientists who also believe in God—to name only Francis Collins [the geneticist and Christian believer recently chosen to head the National Institutes of Health] as an outstanding example. So it clearly is possible to be both. This book more or less begins by accepting that there is that compatibility. The God Delusion did make a case against that compatibility in my own mind.

This is a surprising response because Dawkins compatriots on this side of the pond haven’t been nearly so respectful toward Collins. I would have expected Dawkins to hold a very similar opinion to that of Harris and Myers.

I wonder whether you might be more successful in your arguments if you didn’t convey irritation and a sense that the people who believe in God are not as smart as you are.

[Dawkins:] I think there is a certain justified irritation with young-earth creationists who believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old. Those are the people that I’m really talking about. I do sometimes accuse people of ignorance, but that is not intended to be an insult. I’m ignorant of lots of things. Ignorance is something that can be remedied by education. And that’s what I’m trying to do.

This is another distinction that rarely seems to get made. I don’t recall Dawkins himself making it in The God Delusion. Maybe he did, it has been a year since I read it. If so it wasn’t hard to overlook.

The ubiquitous use of “creationists” to describe those with whom they differ is, it seems to me, an attempt to lump everyone into one group. This overlooks the ongoing and often heated discussions between people like Collins and people like John MacArthur. There is quite a difference there. I’m glad to see Dawkins acknowlege it, even if the reporter had to twist his arm a bit.

Finally, the interview ends amusingly with a discussion of stridency:

Is there anything else I’ve missed?
I would be glad if you didn’t use the word “strident.” I’m getting a little bit tired of it.

I’ve read your books and I would not disagree with that characterization.
OK. Well, let me plant one idea in your head. When somebody offers an opinion about anything other than religion—say, politics or economics or football—they will use language that is no more or less outspoken than mine, and it isn’t called strident. As soon as it’s an atheistic opinion, immediately the adjective “strident” is attached to it, almost as though the word atheist can’t be used without the preceding adjective “strident.” You wouldn’t talk about a strident Christian.

No, you’d simply use “militant” or “Dominionist” or “Fundamentalist.” The implication is very similar if not identical. What’s delicious here is that he seems utterly unaware of the irony. Of all people, he’s one of the last in a position to complain about dismissive adjectives attached to his beliefs. A little Biblical reference to specks and logs seems in order.

That said, the statements in this interview are refreshing. I wish his fans in this country would take his example to heart.

link to original article

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:46am

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:37am:

No they are not compatible. They are poles apart. Evolution is based on scientific observation and factual evidence whereas religion is based on some old book full of bronzed age myths and ancient scribblings.

Genesis is totally incompatible with our understanding of science and the Universe. The earth is not the center of the Universe like the Bible says it is simply because the bible was written by primitive people with insufficient knowledge because God is imaginary.

And I don't see the scientific fraternity making any reference to Genesis in the bible as a credible source of understanding the origins of the universe do you ?? I'd hardly call that compatibility.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:50am

OK then. Respnse number one. Now I'll have to wait and see if someone intelligent posts something....

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by GoddyofOz on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 3:02am

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:50am:

OK then. Respnse number one. Now I'll have to wait and see if someone intelligent posts something....

I take it you're Religious; that's the only way you could have been somehow offended by nails post.

let me say to you; he is absolutely right in his description of the Bible; it is full of inconsistencies and fallacies. Sexism and murder. Incest and racism.

The Bible is a collection of fairytales that were painted as truth in a time when people could not know any better. In a time when hopelessness ran rampant, and the people needed hope. In short, they could be easily fooled.

Clearly, not much has changed today, only the difference is modern day religious people are that way because their parents made them so. It is a cycle of falsification and brainwashing, and even now religious organizations and individuals (Reverend Nile) seek to force their beliefs on everyone else.

To answer the point of the OP, No, Religion and Evolution could not be more incompatible. Religious figureheads find the theory of Evolution as a major threat to their beliefs, and that is enough for me to be convinced, actual science aside, that the theory is correct.

I'm sorry fran, but your beliefs are wrong. It can't even be debated.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 5:40am

"Goddidit, says so in the bible" is a hypothesis. At least it would be within sciences methodology. 'Evolution theory' is a conclusion reached after observation and experiment have produced the data to verify or disprove the hypothesis. There is therfore no base from which to draw comparisons between the assertion of religion and the conclusion of science.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by pansi1951 on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 6:17am

Charles Darwin wrote 'The Origin of the Universe' in 1859, and that book caused most of the remaining principles by which human life was understood in religious terms to go up in smoke.

The Christian church resisted Darwin with vigour, and mostly still does. 'Creation Science' is nothing more than ignorant rantings reflecting a frightened and dying religious mentality.

furthermore, there is much evidence to suggest that the species of life known as Homo is not eternal because we have fouled our environmental nest so thoroughly ie overpopulation and weapons of mass destruction (not the ones in Iraq) that the survival of the human species faces at best long odds.

No. Evolution and the Abrahamic religion of the Christian bible can not go hand in hand. If you believe one, you cannot believe the other.

I'm sure many practising Christians do believe in evolution, but they conveniently put the idea to the back of their mind for the sake of their sanity.

No offence or disrespect to the OP for this answer.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by nairbe on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 7:26am

NO

and the relentless drive by religion to try and give themselves relevance is pathetic.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution, is a theory.

duh people, duh!

n.b.
Ancient rocks do not come with date stamps on them.

n.b.
Fossils which are, 'millions of years old', do not have date stamps on them.

+++++++

Fossils are 'millions of years old'

find that image, here....
"The Missing Link"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242797856/0

Yadda asked....
"Why can't this fossil [image above] be, say, 4 thousand years old???"

See the response, below....

"The Missing Link"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242797856/79#79

Yadda wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 4:01pm:

Amadd wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 3:48pm:

Quote:

i.e. Why can't this fossil be, say, 4 thousand years old???

Hmmmmm????

4,000 years!!! I doubt if it's even possible to get a fossil that young.

Amadd,

You are mistaken.

After being taught at school that it takes millions of years for fossils to form, you, and many others have made fallacious assumptions about the 'age of dinosaurs'.

N.B.
Under the right environmental circumstances, dead organic material can 'fossilise' [petrify] in under 20 years.

That is proven FACT.

i.e. It has been proven [observed to happen], SCIENTIFICALLY.

i"The Missing Link"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242797856/86#86

Quote:

READ, AND LISTEN TO YOUR OWN WORDS!!!

In your own statement,

....."I'll put my trust in science.",

.....you are effectively saying is,

"I believe that a particular fossil, is 47 million years old, because 'scientists', and 'experts' say it is."

Where is YOUR respect for true scientific rigour and process?

You believe that a particular fossil, is 47 million years old, even in the absence of, and without 'science' presenting, conclusive, objective evidence.

i.e. Without proving the assertion, with the rigour of true, scientific process!

"The Missing Link"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242797856/89#89
See images of 70 million year old T-Rex soft tissue in this [above] post.

"Multiculti - preserve cultural id amid enemies"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242606209/30#30

Quote:

HERE IS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT.

"A Tyrannosaurus rex fossil has yielded what appear to be the only preserved soft tissues ever recovered from a dinosaur. Taken from a 70-MILLION-YEAR-OLD THIGHBONE, the structures look like the blood vessels, cells, and proteins involved in bone formation."

Soft tissue taken from a 70-MILLION-YEAR-OLD THIGHBONE of a T-rex???

What poppycock!

Google....
soft tissue t-rex
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=soft+tissue+t-rex&btnG=Google+Search&met...

Item at the National Geographic Society site....
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0324_050324_trexsofttissue.html

According to modern science, SOFT TISSUE from a T-rex has survived for 70-MILLION-YEARS.

....Do you really, really, believe that SOFT TISSUE from a T-rex has survived for 70-MILLION-YEARS???

"Multiculti - preserve cultural id amid enemies"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242606209/51#51

Quote:

.....it has been proven, that petrification of organic material can take place, in less than 20 years.
http://hissheep.org/evolution/proof_of_rapid_petrification.html
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5179/

Google,
rapid petrification
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=rapid+petrification&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Think of the consequences of this *fact*, on our understanding of the age of [dinosaur] fossils.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by muso on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:13am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 6:17am:

The church was critical of Darwin for over 100 years then issued an apology, ahh the hypocrisy of religion.

Islam believes in Evolution its just that muslims do not believe it applies to humans!

Muslims will say we did not come from monkeys,its easier for them to believe we were made from mud and dirt because that is what the Quran states in sura 38:71.

The Quran clearly states we were made from mud and dirt which is not compatible with science!
http://quran.com/38/71
With Quran translations read all 3 by Yusef Ali,Pickthal and Shakir to get by that mistranslation nonsense.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:17am

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

[size=18]Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution is a scientific fact the theory explains how it happens.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:24am

If you are saying that religion (and I am talking specifically about the Christian religion here, but comparisons with other religions could be interesting) is incompatible with evolution because of the creation story, your argument only holds good if we are looking at Creationists, or Fundamental Christians, who are very much in the minority. Even Dawkins sees a difference between "young-earth creationists", who he describes as ignorant, and mainstream Christianity.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:59am

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

"Mankind, just look at our history"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1313024041/0#0

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:06am

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:17am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution is a scientific fact

.....the theory explains how it happens.

LOL

Don't be naive.

Not all, but much of modern science and its conclusions, are the result of human supposition [and sometimes, even the result of scientific fraud].

That is a fact.

Dictionary;
supposition = = an assumption or hypothesis.

Google;
science, misconduct fraud

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:17am

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:24am:

If you are saying that religion (and I am talking specifically about the Christian religion here, but comparisons with other religions could be interesting) is incompatible with evolution because of the creation story,

your argument only holds good if we are looking at Creationists, or Fundamental Christians, who are very much in the minority.

Even Dawkins sees a difference between "young-earth creationists", who he describes as ignorant, and mainstream Christianity.

Yadda is very much in the minority ;D , and is a 'young earth' Christian.

What is modern Christianity, today ???

Many modern Christian churches don't even acknowledge the existence of their God!

2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:23am

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:17am:

Many modern Christian churches don't even acknowledge the existence of their God!

I would suggest that any church which doesn't acknowledge the existence of God could not be said to be Christian. Were there any particular churches you had in mind?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:35am

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:06am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:17am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution is a scientific fact

.....the theory explains how it happens.

LOL

Don't be naive.

If anyone can prove a scientific theory is wrong that theory has to be discarded if you knew about science you would understand this fact.

Lots of evidence for evolution here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils

The church apologised to Darwin for misunderstanding evolution long after he died-

Quote:

Church officials compared the apology to the late Pope JP 2nd decision to say sorry for the vaticans 1633 trial of galileo,the astronomer who apalled prelates by declaring that the earth revolved around the sun.

The officials said that senior bishops wanted to atone for the VILIFICATION their predecessors heaped on Darwin in the 1860"s,when he put forward his theory that man was descended from apes

Read apology from Church to Darwin here-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1055597/Church-makes-8216-ludicrous-8217-apology-Charles-Darwin--126-years-death.html

The church spent all this time bagging Darwin and his theory of evolution then apologised what a bunch of hypocrites!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:02pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:35am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:06am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:17am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution is a scientific fact

.....the theory explains how it happens.

LOL

Don't be naive.

Baron,

I can't convince you.

Just like everyone else, you have to look at all of the available evidence [from both sides of an argument], and then come to your own conclusion(s), 'belief'.

If you want to believe that there is no God, because you cannot see him, that is for you to decide, for you to choose.

If you want to believe that evolution is not a theory, but that evolution is a scientifically proven fact, that is for you to decide, for you to choose.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:13pm

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:50am:

OK then. Respnse number one. Now I'll have to wait and see if someone intelligent posts something....

what exactly do you want to hear idiot ??

maybe you should ask your local preacher for an intelligent comment :D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:16pm

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:17am:

Many modern Christian churches don't even acknowledge the existence of their God!

I would suggest that any church which doesn't acknowledge the existence of God could not be said to be Christian. Were there any particular churches you had in mind?

Which God are you talking about ??

There are thousands of Gods created by humans. Take your pick ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:18pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:02pm:

which God are you talking about ??

Here is a list of 2800 Gods you don't believe in. All are invisible just like yours :) LOL

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:22pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution, is a theory.

duh people, duh!

So you believe the explanation in your stupid old book that says that the Universe is only 6000 years old ??

It would also mean that there are no distance objects that are more than 6000 light years away from us :D LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:36pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:22pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution, is a theory.

duh people, duh!

You are making assumptions, about circumstances.

About the speed of light.

But you, like scientists, are only human.

e.g.
If i fire a bullet, out of the barrel of a rifle, and the bullet coming out of the barrel is travelling at 3,000 feet / sec, can i assume that the bullet will still be travelling at 3,000 feet / sec, after it has travelled 500 yards ???

Hmmmm?

Regards the speed of light;
You are assuming that the speed of light is, and always has been a constant, throughout recorded history.

Can you PROVE that 'fact' ???

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:40pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:36pm:

You are making assumptions, about circumstances.

About the speed of light.

But you, like scientists, are only human.

If i fire a bullet, out of the barrel of a rifle, and the bullet coming out of the barrel is travelling at 3,000 feet / sec, can i assume that the bullet will still be travelling at 3,000 feet / sec, after it has travelled 500 yards ???

Hmmmm?

Regards the speed of light;
You are assuming that the speed of light is, and has been a constant, throughout recorded history.

Can you PROVE that 'fact' ???

The speed of light has been well and truly established by observation and experimentation. This is part of the scientific process which is not satisfied with some gibberish written in some old book.

Where is your evidence that the Universe is no more than 6000 years old ?? Please provide this evidence ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:44pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

The speed of light has been well and truly established by observation and experimentation.

This is part of the scientific process which is not satisfied with some gibberish written in some old book.

Where is your evidence that the Universe is no more than 6000 years old ?? Please provide this evidence ??

Duh.

Read my question, again.

"Regards the speed of light;
You are assuming that the speed of light is, and always has been a constant, throughout recorded history.

Can you PROVE that 'fact' ???"

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:56pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:44pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

The speed of light has been well and truly established by observation and experimentation.

This is part of the scientific process which is not satisfied with some gibberish written in some old book.

Where is your evidence that the Universe is no more than 6000 years old ?? Please provide this evidence ??

so what was the speed of light 6000 years ago ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by mozzaok on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

If by that statement, you mean that people who need to create fantasies to explain the things they do not yet understand, are inclined that way because their brains have not evolved to the point where logic and evidence hold a greater importance for them than ritual and wishful thinking, then you may be right. ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:44pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

The speed of light has been well and truly established by observation and experimentation.

This is part of the scientific process which is not satisfied with some gibberish written in some old book.

Where is your evidence that the Universe is no more than 6000 years old ?? Please provide this evidence ??

Google;
is the speed of light a constant

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:58pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:44pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

The speed of light has been well and truly established by observation and experimentation.

This is part of the scientific process which is not satisfied with some gibberish written in some old book.

Where is your evidence that the Universe is no more than 6000 years old ?? Please provide this evidence ??

Google;
is the speed of light a constant

so what was the speed of light 6000 years ago ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:00pm

mozzaok wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

It's even worse. They need to believe what is written in some old book written by primitives in order to justify their own existence ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:02pm

mozzaok wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Wishful thinking.........is an atheist saying, "I wish there was not a creator God who made rules."

;D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:07pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:02pm:

mozzaok wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Wishful thinking.........is an atheist saying, "I wish there was not a creator God who made rules."

;D

so what was the speed of light 6000 years ago ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:09pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:58pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

Google;
is the speed of light a constant

so what was the speed of light 6000 years ago ??

For a 'definitive' answer, ask an evolutionary 'scientist'.

Its gotta be recorded in a fossil somewhere, along with the time stamp tag on the side of the fossil.
/sarc off

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:14pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:09pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:58pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

Google;
is the speed of light a constant

so what was the speed of light 6000 years ago ??

For a 'definitive' answer, ask an evolutionary 'scientist'.

Its gotta be recorded in a fossil somewhere, along with the time stamp tag on the side of the fossil.
/sarc off

No you are the one who made the assertion that the speed of light is not constant so now you can back up your assertion with facts !!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:18pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:14pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:09pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:58pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

Google;
is the speed of light a constant

so what was the speed of light 6000 years ago ??

For a 'definitive' answer, ask an evolutionary 'scientist'.

Its gotta be recorded in a fossil somewhere, along with the time stamp tag on the side of the fossil.
/sarc off

No you are the one who made the assertion that the speed of light is not constant so now you can back up your assertion with facts !!

LOL

When i finish my time machine [next week!], i'll travel back in time, taking the required instruments of course, and barring any mis-haps, i will return to the present, and let you know - what the speed of light was 6000 years ago.

:P

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:24pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:18pm:

No don't bother returning. Just stay back there with the rest of the brain dead god gobbing morons. You'll be right at home with those god fearing f.ckwits :)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:45pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:24pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:18pm:

No don't bother returning. Just stay back there with the rest of the brain dead god gobbing morons. You'll be right at home with those god fearing f.ckwits

:)

Just another eloquent, and informative post from lastnail.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 2:21pm

Quote:

n.b.
Ancient rocks do not come with date stamps on them.

n.b.
Fossils which are, 'millions of years old', do not have date stamps on them.

Yes they do Yadda.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 2:29pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:02pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:35am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:06am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:17am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution is a scientific fact

.....the theory explains how it happens.

LOL

Don't be naive.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 2:39pm

::)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 3:09pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:45pm:

Just another eloquent, and informative post from lastnail.

an appropriate response to one of your many fallacious arguments ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by freediver on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 7:09pm

yes

http://www.ozpolitic.com/evolution/evolution-become-religion.html

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by perceptions_now on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 7:52pm

No!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 7:58pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:09pm:

For a 'definitive' answer, ask an evolutionary 'scientist'.

Its gotta be recorded in a fossil somewhere, along with the time stamp tag on the side of the fossil.
/sarc off

you made the assertion so you answer the question !!

any credible scientist would say there was no change in the speed of light so if you have any evidence to the contrary lets hear it.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by nairbe on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:28pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:06am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:17am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution is a scientific fact

.....the theory explains how it happens.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

science may well have it's faults but at least much of it is provable and almost all is based on mathematical probability. Religion is a fairy tale with no basis no facts and no proof. Even the margin of probability is against it.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:40pm

freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 7:09pm:

yes

http://www.ozpolitic.com/evolution/evolution-become-religion.html

so how come Noah didn't make room for all of the dinosaurs on his boat ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:42pm

nairbe wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:28pm:

all they have is an old book full of errors and human atrocities :(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:57pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:40pm:

so how come Noah didn't make room for all of the dinosaurs on his boat ??

Maybe he didn't see you....

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:12am

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:40pm:

so how come Noah didn't make room for all of the dinosaurs on his boat ??

Maybe he didn't see you....

Hehe

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:29am

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

COMMENT; Creation isn't finished yet.

So, what is God doing ???

Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Don't believe it ?

Fine.

Is God unrighteous ?

How do you make an omelette ? ;D

+++

Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Joel 3:9
Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Isaiah 26:21
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by muso on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:45am

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:17am:

Many modern Christian churches don't even acknowledge the existence of their God!

I would suggest that any church which doesn't acknowledge the existence of God could not be said to be Christian. Were there any particular churches you had in mind?

Universal Utilitarianist. 8-)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 11:24am

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:17am:

Many modern Christian churches don't even acknowledge the existence of their God!

I would suggest that any church which doesn't acknowledge the existence of God could not be said to be Christian. Were there any particular churches you had in mind?

fran,

Sorry.

I did not express my [intended] meaning very well, in my statement above.

I maybe should have said this;

Many ministers in many modern Christian churches don't even acknowledge the existence of their God, or recognise the divinity of Jesus.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 12:48pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 11:24am:

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:17am:

Many modern Christian churches don't even acknowledge the existence of their God!

I would suggest that any church which doesn't acknowledge the existence of God could not be said to be Christian. Were there any particular churches you had in mind?

that's because they are more interested in the money they can extort from their gullible parishioners ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 12:49pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:40pm:

so how come Noah didn't make room for all of the dinosaurs on his boat ??

Maybe he didn't see you....

Hehe

so what happened to the dinosaurs ?? Did Noah leave them behind :D LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:28am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 12:49pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:40pm:

so how come Noah didn't make room for all of the dinosaurs on his boat ??

Maybe he didn't see you....

Hehe

so what happened to the dinosaurs ?? Did Noah leave them behind :D LOL

Reason - there was no Noah - & the idiots who wrote the Bible
didn't even know about dinosaurs.
What worries me are the bible bashing losers like Longweekend
who believe all this crap.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 12:49pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:40pm:

so how come Noah didn't make room for all of the dinosaurs on his boat ??

Maybe he didn't see you....

Hehe

so what happened to the dinosaurs ?? Did Noah leave them behind :D LOL

Reason - there was no Noah - & the idiots who wrote the Bible
didn't even know about dinosaurs.
What worries me are the bible bashing losers like Longweekend
who believe all this crap.

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 3:36am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am:

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything. I just asked what I thought was a pretty straightforward question. In response, a number of mentally challenged forum members have come forward to equate religion with creationism.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:43am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 12:49pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:12am:

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:40pm:

so how come Noah didn't make room for all of the dinosaurs on his boat ??

Maybe he didn't see you....

Hehe

so what happened to the dinosaurs ?? Did Noah leave them behind :D LOL

Reason - there was no Noah - & the idiots who wrote the Bible
didn't even know about dinosaurs.
What worries me are the bible bashing losers like Longweekend
who believe all this crap.

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

Hmmm, if you put FranFran in bed with Yadda again I shall have to jump on your head.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:48am

Frances wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 3:36am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am:

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

Sorry Nail, carry on, all is forgiven ;D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 7:18am

Seriously, Sciences method is that 'nothing can be proven to be true, all you can do is prove something to be useful to believe.' Religion however, COMMANDS that you believe, at the peril of your immortal soul. I don't think Fran, that you can realistically call yourself religious and be prepared to cut out the bits you don't like.

Yadda likes to hate Muslims. He's forever citing his favourite Koranic verses to show how violent and evil Islam is. And yet the Koran and the bible are virtually the same book. I opened a Koran today for the first time and the random opening was the story of Noah's Ark funnily enough. And Yadda doesn't ever quote the teachings of Jesus when Jesus is saying, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." — Luke 19:27.

If we apply the scientific method to religion and demand a proof of usefulness to believe, what is there? The Holy Land?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by pansi1951 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 7:29am

The creation of Adam and Eve is a bad and misleading myth. The biblical idea is simply wrong, not even symbolically valid. It is an inaccurate idea that has helped to set the stage for the development of a guilt-producing dependency-seeking neurotic religion.

We must remember that humanity is not flawed by some real or mythical act of disobedience that had us expelled from some fanciful Garden of Eden.

We are still evolving, but at this stage we haven't worked out what it is to be human.

creation> wham! bam! we're done, finished, completo.

evolution> we are still evolving. We haven't got to the finished product of humanity yet. Still growing and learning what it is to be grounded in humanity.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by nairbe on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 7:40am

If you consider the storey of Adam and Eve as the christians like to then their children were guilty of incest. All that in breeding no wonder they don't know what really happened. Rather explains why the church is a shelter for sex offenders.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by freediver on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 8:17am

Quote:

The creation of Adam and Eve is a bad and misleading myth. The biblical idea is simply wrong, not even symbolically valid.

So why do researchers of evolution use it's symbology so often?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by muso on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 8:53am

nairbe wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 7:40am:

They were actually Jews. What about the Land of Nod though?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Imperium II on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 8:56am

land of

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by pansi1951 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 9:12am

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 8:17am:

Quote:

The creation of Adam and Eve is a bad and misleading myth. The biblical idea is simply wrong, not even symbolically valid.

So why do researchers of evolution use it's symbology so often?

I have no idea. I would say the garden of Eden was not a perfect place though. For one, why would an evil snake be there if it was perfect?

If Adam was created perfect, why was he lonely?

It seems the sin of Adam and Eve was predestined because God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely die. That means everything we do on this earth is also predestined.

And what was a tree of the knowledge of good and evil doing in paradise?

Whoever wrote that wanted us to believe that Eden was paradise but it was a crap hole even before Eve took the first bite of the apple.

Fair enough to say the symbolism is correct at first glance, but not if you look deeper into the story.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:02am

barnaby joe wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 8:56am:

land of

http://i2.listal.com/image/93598/600full-make-way-for-noddy-photo.jpg

Oooo that's clever, what a moron. From your other posts I'd guess it to be your reading level.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:05am

Frances wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 3:36am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am:

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything.
I just asked what I thought was a pretty straightforward question.
In response, a number of mentally challenged forum members have come forward to equate religion with creationism.

Fran -
and you got an answer which is no.
Religion is not compatible with Evolution.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by pansi1951 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:11am

Not compatible like:

electricity and water

right wingers and humanitarianism

politicians and honesty

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:34am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:05am:

Frances wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 3:36am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am:

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything.
I just asked what I thought was a pretty straightforward question.
In response, a number of mentally challenged forum members have come forward to equate religion with creationism.

Fran -
and you got an answer which is no.
Religion is not compatible with Evolution.

Interesting trivia... When Darwin first proposed his theory of evolution, the (Christian Protestant Church of England at least), did not have a problem with it in principle... It was initially seen as a sign of God's greatness - that from nothing god could will human life into existence (even if by ascent from lower order species).

What the Churches objected to was the suggestion that nature was capricious, random, opportunistic and 'cruel' - therefore by inference - god was essentially not omni-benevolent.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 5:46pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 6:17am:

Really?? And Darwin managed to do that the very same year he published On the Origin of Species????

Sure you can believe both.......it's easy..
'God' is an eternal being, so 'god's' time might be different to ours..
It's entirely possible that the six days needed to create the world etc, were far far longer than our measured days...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:05pm

Just an observation .. it's interesting to note that these types of topics are no longer being posted in Spirituality.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Equitist on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:20pm

:-X

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by freediver on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 7:20pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:34am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:05am:

Frances wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 3:36am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am:

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything.
I just asked what I thought was a pretty straightforward question.
In response, a number of mentally challenged forum members have come forward to equate religion with creationism.

Fran -
and you got an answer which is no.
Religion is not compatible with Evolution.

It's interesting how the public perception of the supposed 'conflict' is so different. It's as if they think the current political dialogue in the US reflects what has gone on since Mendel, or even Galileo.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:12pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

Just an observation .. it's interesting to note that these types of topics are no longer being posted in Spirituality.

Actually, when I started this thread I thought it belonged in the Spirituality section but when I looked at what was there, it all seemed to be about Eastern religions, the New Age and other esoteric stuff. The only thread that seems to be anywhere in the area I was talking about is the more recent "A question about Jesus religions..."

If I should have put it in the Spirituality section, perhaps one of the moderators can move it?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:26pm

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 7:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:34am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:05am:

Frances wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 3:36am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 2:30am:

franfran and Yadda are another couple of losers who not only believe this bullshit but try and convince others to believe it as well :(

I'm not asking anyone to believe anything.
I just asked what I thought was a pretty straightforward question.
In response, a number of mentally challenged forum members have come forward to equate religion with creationism.

Fran -
and you got an answer which is no.
Religion is not compatible with Evolution.

I think the last great "ace" against Darwinism has been played by nutjob American "Neo-Christians" as "intelligent design" in a ridiculous attempt to first return to the Churches' initial position on the matter, then to "resolve" their original objection by suggesting that, through intelligent design, god's will (as manifested through nature) is demonstrably NOT capricious, random, opportunistic and 'cruel'.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:28pm

Frances wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 10:12pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

Just an observation .. it's interesting to note that these types of topics are no longer being posted in Spirituality.

At one stage, good topics like this would appear in Spirituality.

I guess my point is that it's a shame this is no longer possible.

Ah well .. never mind .. such topics are probably better positioned up here given they have better exposure opportunities.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:01pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!

God and religion are man made constructs.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:06pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!

Oh really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_%28philosophy_of_science%29

In particular .. read this section:

Concepts that are considered constructs .. include .. scientific hypotheses and theories (e.g., evolutionary theory, gravitational theory), as well as classifications (e.g. in biological taxonomy) are also conceptual entities considered to be constructs.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:08pm

http://creationmuseum.org/

Quote:

WELCOME AND PREPARE TO BELIEVE

The state-of-the-art 70,000 square foot museum brings the pages of the Bible to life, casting its characters and animals in dynamic form and placing them in familiar settings. Adam and Eve live in the Garden of Eden. Children play and dinosaurs roam near Eden’s Rivers. The serpent coils cunningly in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Majestic murals, great masterpieces brimming with pulsating colors and details, provide a backdrop for many of the settings.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:11pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:06pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_%28philosophy_of_science%29

In particular .. read this section:

Concepts that are considered constructs .. include .. scientific hypotheses and theories (e.g., evolutionary theory, gravitational theory), as well as classifications (e.g. in biological taxonomy) are also conceptual entities considered to be constructs.

So how does the theory of God factor into that definition ??

The evolutionary process is not man made. The description and naming of it is man made but the process is observable by anything or anyone.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm

Evoultion is based on evidence but the bible contains not one scrap of evidence.
It's based on bronze age myths from primitive people who
knew nothing of dinosaurs or other galaxys -
they hardly knew even .00000001% of what we know now.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:22pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

how come none of the true believers can tell us why Noah didn't save the dinosaurs ?? Didn't he build his boat big enough :) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:26pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

how come none of the true believers can tell us why Noah didn't save the dinosaurs ?? Didn't he build his boat big enough :) LOL

What makes you believe that he didn't have any dinosaurs on board?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:27pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:26pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

how come none of the true believers can tell us why Noah didn't save the dinosaurs ?? Didn't he build his boat big enough :) LOL

What makes you think he didn't have any dinosaurs on board?

So where are the dinosaurs now ?? :D LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:29pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

Bobby .. evolution is just a theory .. a man made construct. And just like all man made constructs .. this construct has its issues and limitations.

As a scientist .. you ought to know that.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:30pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:27pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:26pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

how come none of the true believers can tell us why Noah didn't save the dinosaurs ?? Didn't he build his boat big enough :) LOL

What makes you think he didn't have any dinosaurs on board?

So where are the dinosaurs now ?? :D LOL

The same place where the dodos went to .. Last Nail.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:34pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

Bobby .. evolution is just a theory .. a man made construct. And just like all man made constructs .. this construct has its issues and limitations.

As a scientist .. you ought to know that.

True Lisa - but the limitations of the theory of evolution are
far less than a book full of bronze age myths.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

Bobby .. evolution is just a theory .. a man made construct. And just like all man made constructs .. this construct has its issues and limitations.

As a scientist .. you ought to know that.

A theory that is back up by mountains of evidence unlike the theory of God which is only backed by some old book full of bronze aged myths :(

And don't tell me that your faith is a substitute for evidence :D LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm

Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Equitist on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

Bobby .. evolution is just a theory .. a man made construct. And just like all man made constructs .. this construct has its issues and limitations.

As a scientist .. you ought to know that.

Well, I'm glad that's settled: there's no need for humanity to engage in any further discussions of human constructs such as spirituality or science - since all constructs have infinite issues and limitations!?

Case closed!?

End of!?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:34pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

Bobby .. evolution is just a theory .. a man made construct. And just like all man made constructs .. this construct has its issues and limitations.

As a scientist .. you ought to know that.

True Lisa - but the limitations of the theory of evolution are
far less than a book full of bronze age myths.

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:39pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm:

Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.

No I haven't. What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:42pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:34pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

Bobby .. evolution is just a theory .. a man made construct. And just like all man made constructs .. this construct has its issues and limitations.

As a scientist .. you ought to know that.

True Lisa - but the limitations of the theory of evolution are
far less than a book full of bronze age myths.

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

Hi Lisa,
We can disagree & be mature enough to still be friends can't we? :)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:42pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:39pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm:

Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.

No I haven't. What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??

I have answered you. Read above Last Nail.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:43pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:39pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm:

Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.

No I haven't. What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??

I have answered you. Read above Last Nail.

No you haven't. You have answered it using a fallacy.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:44pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

So do you believe as the bible describes that the Universe is only 6000 years old and the earth is the center of the Universe ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:45pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:34pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

Bobby .. evolution is just a theory .. a man made construct. And just like all man made constructs .. this construct has its issues and limitations.

As a scientist .. you ought to know that.

True Lisa - but the limitations of the theory of evolution are
far less than a book full of bronze age myths.

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

Hi Lisa,
We can disagree & be mature enough to still be friends can't we? :)

Absolutely! The great thing about having these sorts of discussions with genuine people like you Bobby is that no matter what the outcome .. we always walk away as friends respecting each other's different viewpoint/s.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:46pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:43pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:39pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm:

Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.

No I haven't. What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??

I have answered you. Read above Last Nail.

No you haven't. You have answered it using a fallacy.

Huh?

Could you be more specific?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:48pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:44pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

So do you believe as the bible describes that the Universe is only 6000 years old and the earth is the center of the Universe ??

That isn't what the Bible says at all (although certain man formed religions may state this).

Perhaps that is why I originally stated in here that evolution and religion are compatible in that they are man made constructs.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:49pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

See here ..

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:54pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:46pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:43pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:39pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm:

Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.

No I haven't. What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??

I have answered you. Read above Last Nail.

No you haven't. You have answered it using a fallacy.

Huh?

Could you be more specific?

Certainly

Weak Analogy

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/wanalogy.html

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:57pm

Have you actually bothered to read what's in your link Last Nail lol??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:58pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:48pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:44pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

So do you believe as the bible describes that the Universe is only 6000 years old and the earth is the center of the Universe ??

Yes it does. It states that earth is the center of the Universe. Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic church for disproving this using scientific evidence !!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:58pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:30pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:27pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:26pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

how come none of the true believers can tell us why Noah didn't save the dinosaurs ?? Didn't he build his boat big enough :) LOL

What makes you think he didn't have any dinosaurs on board?

So where are the dinosaurs now ?? :D LOL

The same place where the dodos went to .. Last Nail.

bump for Last Nail

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:02am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Have you actually bothered to read what's in your link Last Nail lol??

Yes I have. Your using a weak analogy to make your point.

And regarding the dodo let us see the history of this animal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/driven-to-extinction-who-killed-the-dodo-481631.html

Quote:

Driven to extinction: Who killed the Dodo?

Its name has passed into common parlance as a byword for obsolescence. But now a new expedition hopes to shed more light on an iconic bird. Steve Connor reports

For such an iconic animal, it seems strange that we know next to nothing about the dodo - except, of course, that it is dead. We don't know how it lived, what it ate, how many eggs it sat on or even whether it was fat or thin.

But that could all change with a scientific expedition just begun in Mauritius, the remote island in the Indian Ocean where the dodo lived for millions of years before being driven to extinction in the late 17th century, just 80 years after it was sighted by European sailors.

British and Dutch scientists have joined forces to excavate a unique dodo burial ground where the bones of hundreds and possibly thousands of birds have been preserved in marshland for more than 10,000 years. It will be the first time scientists have had access to well-preserved dodo remains that have remained untouched. At last, some light maybe shed on a mysterious and emblematic creature that has come to epitomise how easy it is for man to wipe out a species.......

So how long ago did the dinosaurs become extinct ?? Seems like well before Noah's time :) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:06am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:58pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:48pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:44pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

So do you believe as the bible describes that the Universe is only 6000 years old and the earth is the center of the Universe ??

Yes it does. It states that earth is the center of the Universe. Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic church for disproving this using scientific evidence !!

Nowhere in the BIBLE does it state that the earth is at the centre of the universe. This was something believed by the RELIGIOUS teachings of the CATHOLIC CHURCH at that time.

Galileo was imprisoned for teaching otherwise during the Inquisition period and was forced to recant his teachings about the universe.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:13am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Have you actually bothered to read what's in your link Last Nail lol??

So how long ago did the dinosaurs become extinct ?? Seems like well before Noah's time :) LOL

Dodos and dinosaurs are now extinct. That was my point.

Incidentally .. your original question was why is it that Noah didn't have any dinosaurs on the ark .. remember? I then asked you .. what makes you think that he didn't .. and you replied that if it were true .. then where are these dinosaurs today?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:17am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:06am:

Galileo was imprisoned for teaching otherwise during the Inquisition period and was forced to recant his teachings about the universe.

Psalm 93:1
"(...) the world also is established, that it cannot be moved."

Psalm 104:5
"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

1 Chronicles 16:30
"(...) the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."

Ecclesiastes 1:5,
"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his
place where he arose."

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:19am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:13am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:57pm:

Have you actually bothered to read what's in your link Last Nail lol??

So how long ago did the dinosaurs become extinct ?? Seems like well before Noah's time :) LOL

yes but when did the dinosaurs become extinct ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:17am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:06am:

Galileo was imprisoned for teaching otherwise during the Inquisition period and was forced to recant his teachings about the universe.

Last Nail .. a couple of things:

>> sighs and takes a deep breath <<

1) Do you not know the difference btwn the words EARTH and WORLD???

2) Do you not know that even today we STILL refer to sunrise???

3) Do you not know the difference btwn the words MOVED and REMOVED???

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:29am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

I doubt that... When Biblical verses are used by every fake preacher and half-wit to mean whatever they want them to mean...

You'd be just another in an endless line of those who'd think they've apprehended their 'true' meaning.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:33am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:17am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:06am:

Galileo was imprisoned for teaching otherwise during the Inquisition period and was forced to recant his teachings about the universe.

you're just redefining the definition of words to suit your silly arguments. What does the 'world' actually mean ?? Is there a description in your bible of the planet line up of our solar system or is that excluded from your naive definition of it ??

And I asked you before to give me the period of time when the dinosaurs become extinct. Is that so hard for you ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:35am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:29am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

Actually .. if you take a closer look .. you will find that only when bits and pieces of the Bible are taken and are quoted/used out of context .. you will end up with confusion/contradiction.

Just take a look at Last Nail's Bible verse laden post above .. it proves my point perfectly.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:38am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote:

The Vatican claims Darwin's theory of evolution is compatible with Christianity
The Vatican has admitted that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution should not have been dismissed and claimed it is compatible with the Christian view of Creation.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:39am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:35am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:29am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

Actually .. if you take a closer look .. you will find that only when bits and pieces of the Bible are taken and are quoted/used out of context .. you will end up with confusion/contradiction.

Please don't tell me you have the academic prowess to discern the contextual meaning of Biblical texts, having absorbed it all and 'discovered' their holistic 'true' meaning...

Cos that really would be the definition of 'insane religious nutjob'

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:40am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:29am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

bible bashers have a whole lot of excuses to rationalize what is written in their bible. Here are some of them.

those words don't actually mean what they say !!

you are suppose to interpret that passage metaphorically !!

you are not supposed to interpret that passage literally !!

It was ok to murder and rape people because those times were different

Only a theologian can interpret it

And this one is the one that gets used the most

You are quoting that verse out of context

;) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:42am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:33am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:17am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:06am:

Galileo was imprisoned for teaching otherwise during the Inquisition period and was forced to recant his teachings about the universe.

No .. I've actually highlighted YOUR MISTAKES! You obviously don't know much about the Bible .. do you? Even so .. you feel you can sit there and quote it out of context and without any idea of what it is you are quoting. You can continue to do so if you so desire .. but it will only enable and empower me to make you look rather stupid.

So .. by all means .. please continue to quote the Bible at me.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:45am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:35am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:29am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

Preachers do this all of the time. Go to any church service and preachers will quote different verses from different parts of the bible as part of their sermon ;)

But of course when a preacher quotes the bible out of context then it is always OK isn't it . They have a license to do it and nobody else does ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:45am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:42am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:33am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:17am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:06am:

Galileo was imprisoned for teaching otherwise during the Inquisition period and was forced to recant his teachings about the universe.

You're getting closer to the definition in my previous post.... Keep going, I reckon you've got it in you to get there. ;D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:49am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:42am:

So how did the catholics get it so wrong when they have a direct connection to the creator ??

How can that be ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:57am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:39am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:35am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:29am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

Actually .. if you take a closer look .. you will find that only when bits and pieces of the Bible are taken and are quoted/used out of context .. you will end up with confusion/contradiction.

No .. nothing like that. I was merely stating a simple fact.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:57am

No answer Lisa ?

Some more history for you to add some context to those original quotes ;)

Quote:

The medieval European belief in the concept of a fixed Earth and a Sun
orbiting Earth was based upon literal interpretation of a couple of
statements included in Bible verses.

Possibly the most important of these scriptural references to a
geocentric cosmological system was Joshua 10:12-13:

"Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up
the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight
of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the
valley of Ajalon.
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had
avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book
of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted
not to go down about a whole day."

By taking these verses literally, medieval theologists regarded them
as clear biblical (and thus established) evidence that indeed the Sun
was moving.

Additional biblical proof for a moving Sun was seen in Ecclesiastes
1:5, where it is said:
"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his
place where he arose."

Other biblical verses were interpreted as scriptural evidence that the
Earth is fixed and immovable:

Psalm 93:1
"(...) the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."

Psalm 104:5
"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

1 Chronicles 16:30
"(...) the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."

Upon these text passages from the Old Testament, theologians based the
doctrine of a fixed Earth with the Sun orbitting it. For example,
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) referred to these passages,
when he became involved in the controversy about Galileo Galilei's
work. On 12 April 1615, he wrote in a letter, refusing Galilei's
scientific concept of the Sun being orbited by the Earth which proved
wrong the doctrine:
"I say that, as you know, the Council [of Trent] prohibits expounding
the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers.
And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the
commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and
Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad
litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the
earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile
in the center of the universe."

And even reformer Martin Luther was still a man of medieval
Scripture-based cosmology. In 1539, he commented the ideas of German
astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus, who had made a case of a cosmological
system with the Sun in the center and all planets including the Earth
orbiting it, with the deprecative statement:
"Der Narr will die ganze Kunst Astronomiae umkehren! Aber wie die
Heilige Schrift anzeigt, so hiess Josua die Sonne still stehen und
nicht das Erdreich."
("That fool tries to distort the entire art of astronomy! But as the
Holy Scripture shows, Joshua commended the Sun to stand still, and not
the Earth!")

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:59am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:49am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:42am:

So how did the catholics get it so wrong when they have a direct connection to the creator ??

Do they?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:02am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:59am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:49am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:42am:

So how did the catholics get it so wrong when they have a direct connection to the creator ??

Do they?

that's what they claim ;)

and when did the dinosaurs become extinct ??

Is that before or after Noah ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:03am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote:

Didn't I originally state in here that religion and evolution were compatible? There you go!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:03am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote:

Didn't I originally state in here that religion and evolution are compatible? There you go!

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:06am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

Actually .. this is what I originally posted in here. Many thanks Bobby for proving me correct lol :P

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:06am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:06am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

Actually .. this is what I originally posted in here. Many thanks Bobby for proving me correct lol :P

Then how come animals don't follow it ?? :D LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:09am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote:

We seem now to have come full circle - this is the article I quoted at the beginning of the thread.....

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:10am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:06am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:06am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

Actually .. this is what I originally posted in here. Many thanks Bobby for proving me correct lol :P

Then how come animals don't follow it ?? :D LOL

Huh???

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:12am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

the word EVOLUTION is but the process is NOT man made where as both the word RELIGION and its processes are man made !! How many times do I have to say this ?

This is just another weak analogy of yours. It is pathetic when people have to resort to fallacious arguments in order to make their point :(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:13am

Frances wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:09am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote:

We seem now to have come full circle - this is the article I quoted at the beginning of the thread.....

Did you?? I didn't read the article in question. In fact I only just saw it a moment ago when Bobby posted it.

I still maintain my original stance .. ie that religion and evolution are compatible as man made constructs.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:14am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:10am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:06am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:06am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

Actually .. this is what I originally posted in here. Many thanks Bobby for proving me correct lol :P

Then how come animals don't follow it ?? :D LOL

Huh???

well animals like humans are a consequence of evolution so it only makes sense that they follow religion but they don't ;) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:14am

Frances wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:09am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote:

We seem now to have come full circle - this is the article I quoted at the beginning of the thread.....

Yes full circle & we'll never get anywhere.
Let people believe whatever they want.

Carl Sagan

Quote:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:15am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:12am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

Oi! You stated something different before and I corrected you. Stop changing the goal posts. Wait a sec.. let me grab the posts in question (so that you never try this stunt again).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:16am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:06pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!

Bump for Last Nail.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:19am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:13am:

Frances wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:09am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

Quote:

We seem now to have come full circle - this is the article I quoted at the beginning of the thread.....

They are not compatible just because the Vatican says so. They are just like most bible bashers which change their views over time as science makes them and their old teachings less relevant. They are hypocrites and them and their old book is obsolete :(

The Vatican also apologized for persecuting Galileo. The question is how did they get it so wrong when their bible hasn't changed ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:21am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

Bump for Last Nail.

Oh and you're right .. the Bible hasn't changed.

The constructs of evolution and religion however have.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:21am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:16am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:06pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!

Bump for Last Nail.

the theory may be a construct but the observable processes are not a construct unlike the theory of God ;)

Con you make a distinction here or do you need me to spell it out more ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:23am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:21am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

Bump for Last Nail.

Oh and you're right .. the Bible hasn't changed.

The constructs of evolution and religion however have.

So when can we see an updated version of the bible or are you forever going to twist its meanings to suit your own twisted arguments ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:26am

Last Nail .. you do realise that you have in fact just admitted that evolution and religion are both constructs and theories. Good stuff! I knew we'd get there eventually.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:27am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:26am:

Last Nail .. you do realise that you have in fact just admitted that evolution and religion are both constructs and theories. Good stuff! I knew we'd get there eventually.

yes evolution is a scientific theory backed up by plenty of evidence and your evidence for the theory of God is......??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:28am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:23am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:21am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

Bump for Last Nail.

Oh and you're right .. the Bible hasn't changed.

The constructs of evolution and religion however have.

So when can we see an updated version of the bible ..

Umm .. you better read my post again Last Nail. I stated that the Bible HASN'T CHANGED.

The point I was trying to make is that the Bible isn't what is changing here .. just the ideas of men as they develop over time through constructs like Evolution and Religion.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:29am

Carl Sagan

Quote:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:33am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:28am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:23am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:21am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

Bump for Last Nail.

Oh and you're right .. the Bible hasn't changed.

The constructs of evolution and religion however have.

So when can we see an updated version of the bible ..

Umm .. you better read my post again Last Nail. I stated that the Bible HASN'T CHANGED.

Yes but why hasn't it changed ??

Science changes its books when new evidence comes to light that dispels previous theories. That's part of the scientific process but the Vatican refuses to change the bible even though it has been proven wrong :(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:41am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:29am:

Carl Sagan

Quote:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

You've quoted a scientist who was also a drug addict and an agnostic.

Many thanks Bobby.

Not sure what else I can say to you right now.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:41am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:57am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:39am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:35am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:29am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:26am:

Come on .. if you're gonna start quoting Bible verses at me .. verses you've never seen or read before in your life and which you've obviously googled .. you're gonna lose this argument .. and badly.

Actually .. if you take a closer look .. you will find that only when bits and pieces of the Bible are taken and are quoted/used out of context .. you will end up with confusion/contradiction.

No .. nothing like that. I was merely stating a simple fact.

No, you're stating a naive opinion, being unaware of its irony.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:45am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:29am:

Carl Sagan

Quote:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

You've quoted a scientist who was also a drug addict and an agnostic.

Many thanks Bobby.

Not sure what else I can say to you right now.

Another fallacy which is indicative of poor debating skills :(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:33am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:28am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:23am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:21am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:07am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04am:

Yes but they didn't always believe this. But how can this be when their Bible has not changed ??

Because RELIGION just like EVOLUTION ARE BOTH MAN MADE CONSTRUCTS.

Bump for Last Nail.

Oh and you're right .. the Bible hasn't changed.

The constructs of evolution and religion however have.

So when can we see an updated version of the bible ..

Umm .. you better read my post again Last Nail. I stated that the Bible HASN'T CHANGED.

As I stated above .. the point I was trying to make is that the Bible isn't what is changing here .. just the ideas of men as they develop over time through constructs like Evolution and Religion.

Hence .. this is why it is the Vatican that is changing .. and not the Bible. As such .. the Vatican's rules/laws etc change and thus the Vatican's books/documents also change.

As regards Evolution .. you're right Last Nail .. just like Religion .. it also changes its books. See how similar they are?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:51am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:45am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:29am:

Carl Sagan

Quote:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

You've quoted a scientist who was also a drug addict and an agnostic.

Many thanks Bobby.

Not sure what else I can say to you right now.

Another fallacy which is indicative of poor debating skills :(

Change the record Last Nail .. it's getting tiresome.

Oh and FYI .. I merely stated some FACTS on the fellow.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:52am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am:

So why isn't the bible changed to reflect the correct evidence ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:53am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am:

As regards Evolution .. you're right Last Nail .. just like Religion .. it also changes its books. See how similar they are?

Evolution refers to change by natural selection.

If Religion changes (and it claims a mortgage on ultimate truth), does it mean that its previous permutations were lies? I so, what does it say of what you believe today?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:55am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:51am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:45am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:29am:

Carl Sagan

Quote:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

You've quoted a scientist who was also a drug addict and an agnostic.

Many thanks Bobby.

Not sure what else I can say to you right now.

Another fallacy which is indicative of poor debating skills :(

Change the record Last Nail .. it's getting tiresome.

Oh and FYI .. I merely stated some FACTS on the fellow.

If there Is something that he said that you disagree with ?? Lets hear it ??

And bump to you.

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:56am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:52am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am:

So why isn't the bible changed to reflect the correct evidence ??

Are you reading my posts at all Last Nail?

Why should the Bible change?? The Bible isn't at issue here.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:58am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:56am:

Why should the Bible change??.

But it does and it has, many times, over the centuries.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:58am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:53am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am:

As regards Evolution .. you're right Last Nail .. just like Religion .. it also changes its books. See how similar they are?

They just make it up by trying to shove a square peg into a round hole whilst desperately trying to hold onto an obsolete, unsubstantiated book full of drivel :(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:58am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:56am:

Why should the Bible change?? The Bible isn't at issue here.

But it does and it has, many times, over the centuries.

So you still believe that Genesis is an accurate account of the origins of the Universe ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:53am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am:

As regards Evolution .. you're right Last Nail .. just like Religion .. it also changes its books. See how similar they are?

You're asking me about Religion now? What makes you think I'm even remotely interested in this particular man made construct?

If anything .. I'm very cynical about Religion.

I do believe in the Bible though.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

I do believe in the Bible though.

Why?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:58am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:56am:

Why should the Bible change??.

But it does and it has, many times, over the centuries.

Has it? Can you tell me more?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:53am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am:

As regards Evolution .. you're right Last Nail .. just like Religion .. it also changes its books. See how similar they are?

So why don't you believe in burning witches and stoning people to death for committing adultery ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:03am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

I do believe in the Bible though.

Why?

Does it matter?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:07am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:58am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:56am:

Why should the Bible change??.

But it does and it has, many times, over the centuries.

Has it? Can you tell me more?

The excision of parts of St Mark's Gospel, in the early years of Christianity.

The suppression (declarations of heresy) of gospels other than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The multiple mistranslations of Greek to Latin to other languages over the centuries.

The reinterpretations of Biblical texts (particularly over the last 50 years) to play at making it 'relevant' to modern times.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:07am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:03am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

I do believe in the Bible though.

Why?

Does it matter?

It does when you make claims about Biblical 'truth'.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:53am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:47am:

As regards Evolution .. you're right Last Nail .. just like Religion .. it also changes its books. See how similar they are?

So why don't you believe in burning witches and stoning people to death for committing adultery ?

In the New Testament of the Holy Bible .. it was Jesus who spared the life of a sinful woman who was caught in the act of adultery. The RELIGIOUS hypocrites who were present however .. wanted the woman stoned.

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

Needless to say .. no one could throw a stone at the woman .. and one by one they all left.

If we read what the Bible itself says .. and not what Religion says about it .. we get a clearer picture of what Jesus was all about.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

So you'd believe that today's criminals should be forgiven, not punished?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:13am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:07am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:03am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

I do believe in the Bible though.

Why?

Does it matter?

It does when you make claims about Biblical 'truth'.

The reason why I asked DOES IT MATTER .. is because this topic is about the compatibility of religion and evolution.

In short .. we're getting personal and offtopic.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

So you'd believe that today's criminals should be forgiven, not punished?

Read my post again .. and in its entirety. You've missed the point entirely.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:15am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:13am:

The reason why I asked DOES IT MATTER .. is because this topic is about the compatibility of religion and evolution.

In short .. we're getting personal and offtopic.

It's not getting personal to me. My questions are meant to elicit a sense of the depth of your understanding of what you claim to believe, not a denigration of who you are.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:07am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:58am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:56am:

Why should the Bible change??.

But it does and it has, many times, over the centuries.

Has it? Can you tell me more?

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:18am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

So you'd believe that today's criminals should be forgiven, not punished?

Read my post again .. and in its entirety. You've missed the point entirely.

I understand the text... The sinful woman (adulterer) was a criminal in the 1st century (Adultery being a crime then). Jesus suggested that a criminal should be forgiven not punished. Just because a crime in the bible is not a crime today, does not mean the text is relevant today with regard to its possible original meaning.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:19am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:15am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:13am:

The reason why I asked DOES IT MATTER .. is because this topic is about the compatibility of religion and evolution.

In short .. we're getting personal and offtopic.

It's not getting personal to me. My questions are meant to elicit a sense of the depth of your understanding of what you claim to believe, not a denigration of who you are.

But it is getting personal AND offtopic.

Also .. I do not wish to derail this very worthy topic.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:22am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:18am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

So you'd believe that today's criminals should be forgiven, not punished?

Read my post again .. and in its entirety. You've missed the point entirely.

In short .. you can read but you cannot understand the point of the passage.

This hint may help you .. think back to what this topic is about ie RELIGION.

Now read my post again ..

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:24am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am:

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

These 'players' were religious scholars and Church leaders of their day... As were many of the originators of the texts.

As you've never read an original manuscript, nor, I suspect, are you aware that significant changes have occurred over the centuries, you're not in a position to know whether the current versions are a true and accurate expression of the original biblical texts (which they are not) nor do you seem to be aware that the legacy of Jesus was hotly debated for nearly 300 years after his death with fatal consequences for the losers.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:25am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:18am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

So you'd believe that today's criminals should be forgiven, not punished?

Read my post again .. and in its entirety. You've missed the point entirely.

In short .. you can read but you cannot understand the point of the passage.

This hint may help you .. think back to what this topic is about ie RELIGION.

Now read my post again ..

Being intentionally obtuse only masks your pseudo-understanding of the subject.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am

Perhaps this will help illustrate my point a tad further.

John Chapter 8

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

John 8:3-30

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

You're forgetting that Jesus absolved her without punishment. The Pauline Christian text would have it that Judaic law is redundant (particularly as it was often at odds with Roman law).

Would you will the same for today's criminals?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:25am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:18am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

So you'd believe that today's criminals should be forgiven, not punished?

Read my post again .. and in its entirety. You've missed the point entirely.

In short .. you can read but you cannot understand the point of the passage.

This hint may help you .. think back to what this topic is about ie RELIGION.

Now read my post again ..

Being intentionally obtuse only masks your pseudo-understanding of the subject.

Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

Actually .. I'm not forgetting the point of the passage at all.

But I've noticed that you keep ignoring it for some reason.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am:

Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know.

Or it could be that you don't really know or believe what you are talking about and you're trying to mask it by being obtuse.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:35am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

Actually .. I'm not forgetting the point of the passage at all.

But I've noticed that you keep ignoring it for some reason.

As I said, I understand the text and the Pauline reason for denigrating Judaic law (in favour of Jewish adherence to Roman law).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:36am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am:

Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know.

Or it could be that you don't really know or believe what you are talking about and you're trying to mask it by being obtuse.

Well .. if you read back .. you will note that I am the one doing a lot of the answering whilst you and a few others are just sitting there doing a lot of the asking.

That in itself is very telling.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:37am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am:

Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know.

Or it could be that you don't really know or believe what you are talking about and you're trying to mask it by being obtuse.

Well .. if you read back .. you will note that I am the one doing a lot of the answering whilst you and a few others are just sitting there doing a lot of the asking.

That in itself is very telling.

I think if you read back, you will note that I have made more statements than asked questions.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:35am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

Actually .. I'm not forgetting the point of the passage at all.

But I've noticed that you keep ignoring it for some reason.

As I said, I understand the text and the Pauline reason for denigrating Judaic law (in favour of Jewish adherence to Roman law).

I don't think you understand the text I've referenced at all to be quite honest.

Why?? You keep ignoring the point of the text .. as well as its relevance to this topic.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:41am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am:

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

I don't think you understand the text I've referenced at all to be quite honest.

Why?? You keep ignoring the point of the text .. as well as its relevance to this topic.

Was he? Or were the Pauline-affected writers of the Gospel making a statement about the subservience of Judaic Law with regard to Roman Law?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:47am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:24am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am:

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

The New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek .. and as it so happens I do have access to that Bible actually. In fact I was first introduced to it at age 5 by my Greek mother.

You shouldn't assume too much about people you don't know.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:47am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:24am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am:

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

You and your mother speak ancient Greek?

No original manuscripts exist (of course). All we have are transcriptions written by monks and others who may or may not have had a scholarly grasp of Aramaic or Greek (particularly when Latin became the lingua franca of the Roman Empire).

After Constantine, Christianity became a political arm of the emperor.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:41am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am:

Was he? Or were the Pauline-affected writers of the Gospel making a statement about the subservience of Judaic Law with regard to Roman Law?

As you well know (and insist on ignoring) .. the point of the passage is that Jesus confounded the pathetic and hypocritical religious leaders of the day. The very same hypocrites who attempted to use this woman as a trap hoping to trick Jesus. The Romans didn't permit the Jews to carry out their own executions, so if He had ordered her stoned they would have reported Him to the Romans; if He had said she should not be stoned, they would accuse Him of breaking Moses' law.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:52am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:47am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:24am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am:

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

Who mentioned ancient Greek?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:54am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am:

It was the pathetic and hypocritical religious leaders of the day that Jesus confounded in this passage. The very same hypocrties who attempted to use this woman as a trap hoping to trick Jesus. The Romans didn't permit the Jews to carry out their own executions, so if He had ordered her stoned they would have reported Him to the Romans; if He had said she should not be stoned, they would accuse Him of breaking Moses' law.

The Jews were most definitely allowed to carry out their own executions with regard to Judaic laws the Romans allowed to stand (for which the punishment was death).

Adultery was less of a crime under Roman law than Judaic law, so all the writers were trying to put across, was that Roman law was less severe than Judaic law and therefore more 'worthy' of obedience.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:56am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:41am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am:

Was he? Or were the Pauline-affected writers of the Gospel making a statement about the subservience of Judaic Law with regard to Roman Law?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:54am:

Adultery was less of a crime under Roman law than Judaic law, so all the writers were trying to put across, was that Roman law was less severe than Judaic law and therefore more 'worthy' of obedience.

LMAO! There's a white elephant in the middle of the room but you refuse to see it. There's not much more that I can do for you Helian.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:01am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

This is the white elephant .. in case you're wondering.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:04am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:01am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

This is the white elephant .. in case you're wondering.

The 'white elephant' being?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:04am

VERSE 6 - "This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground."

And of course I am right .. now that I've revealed this missing verse lol :)

Thanks for playing Helian. It was fun.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:05am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:04am:

And it is a white elephant because?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:07am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:41am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am:

Was he? Or were the Pauline-affected writers of the Gospel making a statement about the subservience of Judaic Law with regard to Roman Law?

Bump for Helian. Happy reading!

I totally enjoyed revealing my missing verse to you at the very end. Incidentally .. it's a technique I often use when I debate people who google Bible "stuff" and have no idea what they are on about. You would do well to remember this for next time.

Ok .. night all and sleep well.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:16am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:07am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:41am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am:

Was he? Or were the Pauline-affected writers of the Gospel making a statement about the subservience of Judaic Law with regard to Roman Law?

Bump for Helian.

Oh and good night lol :)

You'll need to be more careful trying to play at being informed, Lisa.

Good reading matter for you would be biblical interpolations over the centuries... Where verses that previously did not exist appeared in later transcriptions and vice versa.... Such as that where Jesus wrote in the sand after the 'scribes and pharisees' attempted to 'tempt' Jesus.

You'll find quick enough that as Pauline Christianity took hold in Europe after the spilt with the Jerusalem Council the legacy of Jesus became increasingly pro-Roman with versions of the current texts altered accordingly with other Gospels excised altogether.

Being obtuse requires a sharp mind.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:23am

All that ^^^ = irrelevant waffle.

Oh and as such it's a tad annoying.

Even so .. something tells me our discussions are going to be rather interesting from now on Mr Helian.

It's dreadfully late. Sleep well and sweet dreams.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:23am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:07am:

I totally enjoyed revealing my missing verse to you at the very end. Incidentally .. it's a technique I often use when I debate people who google Bible "stuff" and have no idea what they are on about. You would do well to remember this for next time.

Interesting... Are you saying your belief in the bible has taught you to be dishonest?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:26am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:23am:

All that ^^^ = irrelevant waffle.

No it reveals that the New Testament was not nor ever has been an unaltered final word on the life of Jesus. (i.e. not the 'truth').

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:31am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:23am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:07am:

Interesting... Are you saying your belief in the bible has taught you to be dishonest?

Not at all.

The Bible does however state in Matthew 10:16

Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

I merely withheld my missing verse in order to test you out. I must say .. it was funny watching you post so much irrelevant dribble and with such dedication too.

OK seriously now .. I'm gone. I've got to be up by 7 am. Good night (or should I say good morning).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:36am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:31am:

I merely withheld that verse in order to test you out.

So your belief in the bible has taught you to tell lies and half-truths? Like, say, the 'scribes and Pharisees' you describe as hypocrites?

Does 'Being wise as a serpent' mean dishonesty to you?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Imperium II on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:40am

wowio

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Imperium II on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:56am

Quote:

I've got to be up by 7 am.

getting your back hair waxed, eh?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:20am

The bible is a translation of a feeling into a thought, a thought into a vibration on a chord that's picked up by air and thrown across space. The vibration was then picked up by organs mounted on the side of heads, (which, compared to cats and others really aren't to well designed). By way of teeny bones and tiny ducts the vibration is translated back into a thought , (by an organ quite capable of changing words and meanings to suit the new environment without conscious decision making). From there the thought is transcribed as a series of highly stylised pictures on paper. Then follows a 2000 year history of translation into other 'languages', 'modernisations', political correcting, revisions, reinterpretations and typos.

The bible doesn't change! Did you never play Chinese whispers?

If a god wanted to communicate with you, is this the method it would choose?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by freediver on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:23am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:11pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:06pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!

I posted a response here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1313274155

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:27am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

Then a little old lady rushed forwards and picked up a stone, and Jesus spake unto her saying - "Mum, MUM PUt it down, not you mum, MUM STOP IT!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:52am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:29am:

Carl Sagan

Quote:

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

You've quoted a scientist who was also a drug addict and an agnostic.

Many thanks Bobby.

Not sure what else I can say to you right now.

I just found out that he sometimes smoked pot.
He wasn't a drug addict.
Who cares?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan

Quote:

Carl Edward Sagan (English pronunciation: /ˈseɪɡən/ ) (November 9, 1934 – December 20, 1996) was an American astronomer , astrophysicist , cosmologist , author, science popularizer , and science communicator in the space and natural sciences . During his lifetime, he published more than 600 scientific papers and popular articles and was author, co-author, or editor of more than 20 books. In his works, he advocated skeptical inquiry and the scientific method . He pioneered exobiology and promoted the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) .

Sagan became world-famous for his popular science books and for the award-winning 1980 television series Cosmos: A Personal Voyage , which he narrated and co-wrote.[2] A book to accompany the program was also published. Sagan also wrote the novel Contact , the basis for the 1997 film of the same name .

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:02am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:39pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:35pm:

Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.

No I haven't.

What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??

lastnail,

Making more 'scientific' assumptions, again i see.

A scientific process [i.e. proving some hypothesis by examining and evaluating all of the available evidence] demands intellectual honesty and rigour and a willingness to examine every piece of evidence which may be related to a subject/issue.

People who straight-out, refuse to examine [some of the] evidence, because they know that that [some particular] evidence may lead to a conclusion which they do not wish to embrace, are not engaging in the 'scientific' process.

Science [the scientific process] today, has been corrupted by some people in our culture.

Some people, today, are [clearly] using 'something' which they call 'science', as an intellectual tool [as a weapon?] to defend a belief system - their own.

It is clear that some people, are only willing to engage in the 'scientific process' when very particular parts of the evidence agrees with their own preconceived notions, about what is clearly 'obvious'.

And it is clear that some people, will discard conclusions, refuse to entertain conclusions [based on very particular parts of the available evidence], which do not agree with their own preconceived notions, about what is clearly 'obvious'.

That, is not science.

Science, is about truth.

Science, is about not discarding truth, science is about facing and confronting truth.

lastnail asks....
"Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible ??"
"Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible ??"
"Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible ??"

Proverbs 14:16
A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.

Listen up people....
Obviously, dinosaurs are NOT described in the bible.

Q.
How do we know this ???

A.
Because lastnail is a Bible expert !
And i'm sure that we can all assume, that lastnail has read the Bible, many, many times.
Else how would lastnail know, that dinosaurs are not described in the bible ???
/sarc off

+++

"What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??"

Dinosaurs were probably hunted and made extinct by mankind.
e.g.
Where are sabre tooth tigers, and mammoths [and probably many other extinct species], today ???

Dead.

And, by the way, dinosaurs are described in the Bible.

But they are not called 'dinosaurs', in the Bible.

+++

Job 40:15
Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

He [dinosaurs] had a tail, like a tree [trunk] ?

Are there any creatures alive today that have a 'tail like a cedar [i.e. a tree trunk]'?

"....his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly."

T-rex was clearly a meat eater, but perhaps there were other dinosaurs that, "eateth grass as an ox.", which had large 'loins' [hindquarters] ???

+++

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;.....

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:17am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:44pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.

So do you believe as the bible describes that the Universe is only 6000 years old and the earth is the center of the Universe ??

Thought I'd jump in (only just found this thread)..

The bible doesn't actually define the 'age' of Earth....that was 'worked out' by James Ussher, an Archbisop in the Curch of Ireland, in 1650.

He calculated backwards using dates in the OT, and came up with a creation date of October 23 4004 BC..

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:18am

Hi Lisa,
You still need to answer Nail's question:

Quote:

Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible

It's a simple question but it shows that your bible is severely lacking in any credibility.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:19am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

This idea was suggested by another on another forum...

The most fascinating thing about the Cambrian explosion is the evolution of eyes, which science still cannot account for. Humans do not know from where or how eyes evolved. They simple turned up unannounced. Without eyes, there is no light, because we cannot see.

'And God said, "Let there be light,' and there was light.'

More realistically, that sentence and the creation myth in Genesis are referring to part of God's ancestry or incarnations or evolutions linking Him to El, the Canaanite god of Creation. Mythologically, Jehovah or El, were seeking to answer one of man's yearning quests which plagues all ages of our history, which plagues us even now. How and why are we here?

Evolution would suggest that it was in some parts a lucky draw. There was an almost infinite number of possible universes with this one. that we all know to be ours, being but one. We've discovered the scientific parameters in which life can exist are limited allowing very narrow extremes in climate, environment, biological and chemical development. One of the first things that evolved when life emerged from this extremely improbable universal possibility, was survival. Survival is very strong in life. It seems that only sophisticated yet irrational thoughts such as suicide idealization can override its influence on life.

For social beings survival means cooperation. Values and rules aid cooperation. So God belief not only seeks to answer the quests of how and why we are here, it also seeks to tell those of faith how to live cooperatively. God belief gives meaning. The harsh reality of our existence when considered without gods, that being survival, is disheartening for most. God belief resolves this by giving people a sense of something else beyond mere survival but which is attainable only after first living.

There are others however, who are not disheartened by the nature of life as Survival. Survival is not the only powerful product of life. It's rather extraordinary that through some seridipity of chance and determinism, the universe should be conscious at this epoc of its existence. That humans are conscious and self aware is that the universe is conscious and self aware, since humans are of the universe.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:25am

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:23am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:11pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:06pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!

I posted a response here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1313274155

And it was an excellent response too Freediver!

Here it is again:

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:22am:

Actually the process, to the extent it goes beyond natural selection, is not observable. Even natural selection is not directly observable. It is an interpretation, not an observation. Being able to distinguish observation and interpretation is key to understanding the philosophy of science.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:40am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:55am:

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??

I don't know.

Was the book of Job written before, or after the flood lastnail ???

I ask you lastnail, because, you know so much about the contents of the bible. ;)

/sarc off

So, what is the answer lastnail ???

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:42am

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

The most fascinating thing about the Cambrian explosion is the evolution of eyes, which science still cannot account for. Humans do not know from where or how eyes evolved. They simple turned up unannounced. Without eyes, there is no light, because we cannot see.

Although the reason jellyfish can navigate around objects without 'eyes' suggests that some of their cells are light sensitive, enabling the animal to determine the existence of an object in its path and take some form of evasive action.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:44am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:18am:

Hi Lisa,
You still need to answer Nail's question:

Quote:

Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible

It's a simple question but it shows that your bible is severely lacking in any credibility.

Lol bobby....it's a simple question, and there is a simple answer to match it..
The Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve etc, were the last things created, but the first things described in detail...Lots of other things aren't 'described' in the bible, except in general terms...i.e 'the beasts in the fields and the fishes in the seas'..

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:44am

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:40am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:55am:

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??

Naughty, naughty Lisa... Deflection is deception. ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:47am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:42am:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

The argument refers to eyes as we know eyes to be now. Otherwise, for those jellyfish without eyes, how do you know that echolocation is not playing a roll?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:49am

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:47am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:42am:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

The argument refers to eyes as we know eyes to be now. Otherwise, for those jellyfish without eyes, how do you know that echolocation is not playing a roll?

Probably because no cells with sonar capabilities have been discovered within jellyfish, but photo-sensitive cells apparently have been.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:51am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

I do believe in the Bible though.

Why?

Let me answer that one.

Because believing in the Bible is so much more satisfying that believing in the changing vanity and the pride of men.

John 17:17
....thy word is truth.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:52am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:40am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:55am:

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??

Naughty, naughty Lisa... Deflection is deception. ;)

Lisa, the bible makes it perfectly clear that humans were a part of the great creation, so must have co-existed with dinosaurs.

To the other question, Jewish tradition holds that Moses is the author of the first five books of the bible.

Now, how does your question relate to the question asked of you? Or, is it as Helian suggests, you deflect so as to avoid the absurd outcomes of your God belief?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:54am

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:51am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

I do believe in the Bible though.

Why?

Let me answer that one.

Because believing in the Bible is so much more satisfying that believing in the changing vanity and the pride of men.

Christo-centric Biblical texts have changed multiple times since the 1st century... For political and chauvinistic reasons as well as to denigrate Judaism. Would that not also count as acts of vanity and pride?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:03am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:54am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:51am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:02am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am:

I do believe in the Bible though.

Why?

Let me answer that one.

Because believing in the Bible is so much more satisfying that believing in the changing vanity and the pride of men.

God belief is so filled with anthropomorphism, that to study the nature of God is to hold a mirror up to humanity.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:05am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:40am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:55am:

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??

Naughty, naughty Lisa... Deflection is deception. ;)

The question was put to Yadda .. so I fail to see how I am allegedly deflecting.

Speaking of deflection Helian .. it was basically all you did last night.

And last night essentially consisted of me being on the receiving end of answering many questions put to me by agnostics and atheists like you and others for most of the night.

That fact alone is very telling.

Also .. you may have noticed that I don't appreciate being asked the same question over and over again AFTER it has been previously answered by me .. simply because someone here isn't bothered to read back.

Another thing which you no doubt now know is that I find it annoying when people (like you) come on here to post a few googled bits n pieces about the Bible. This type of BS becomes painfully apparent within a few posts and it only ends up with me winning the debate and making my opponent look very silly.

If you care to read back .. I've been at pains to recurringly warn you and others NOT to google stuff from the Bible .. because it will backfire. And that is exactly what happened last night Helian. You proved to me that you know nothing at all about the actual contents of the Bible save what you could google.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:12am

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/195

And I've returned today to see that you remained online to have a dummy spit about it all too.

Helian .. get over it and move on. Even better .. how about you try READING the Bible itself BEFORE you start throwing parts of it at me. The same applies to anyone else reading this post and who hasn't bothered to read the Bible itself .. yet feels compelled to start quoting bits that they have googled. Save yourself the worry of the inevitable dummy spit that you will no doubt experience after I finish with you.

Ok .. I need to finish packing. I'm off on a business trip for the next 5 days.

Take care everyone and stay safe. I'm not sure if/ when I will be able to log back in.

Until then .. God bless.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:12am

Lisa

Having been born and raised a Roman Catholic and subjected to religious education from 5 to 18, let alone being subject to strict Irish Catholic traditions of religious observance, I have an intimate enough knowledge of Christian texts to not need to necessarily refer to online texts.

You seem to think that your deception and dishonesty when debating somehow equates to you winning an argument.

My question to you is, what is the point of believing in the Bible (particularly the New Testament) if you do not learn to practise the values it espouses (like honesty) ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:15am

From the Landover Baptist forum-

These guys quote the bible verses...lol.

A guide to the evolutionist conspiracy-
www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=4474

The religious might claim they are compatible with evolution-

How was Adam created according to the bible?

Does the creation of adam conflict with evolution?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:20am

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:52am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:40am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:55am:

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??

Naughty, naughty Lisa... Deflection is deception. ;)

Bump for Lisa.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:23am

Also Lisa, your Biblical knowledge appears to consist of naive and uncritical recital of the text.

For example, your belief that there was no Jewish law to put a man to death, is easily countered by even a superficial reading of the New Testament, let alone referring to secular sources...

John the Baptist was executed by Herod Antipas (the Tetrach of Galilee and Perea). Antipas was legally entitled to execute a law breaker and did so... Even the New Testament will agree to that.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:12am:

Helian .. there you go again .. get over it. I outted YOUR dishonesty actually. You made out that you knew what the hell you were talking about. I merely showed you that you had no idea. Actually .. the Bible itself did that .. I merely posted a verse from it and it was the verse itself which showed you up.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/195

It's all there for everyone to read. I'm certainly not going to rehash last night all over again. It was (and still is) embarrassing for you .. and that much is painfully clear.

Your issue is not with me .. it is with the Bible. Best you take it up with God.

Now .. I've got to pack. I'll check back in here if/when I can.

One last thing .. I've read Sappho's posts and I would very much like to respond to her at some stage. She raises many valid and genuine points which deserve to be explored further.

Ok log off time. Catch you all later.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:30am

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:15am:

I just read that...what a hoot.
He HAS to be taking the micky.......

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:32am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

Helian .. there you go again .. get over it. I outted YOUR dishonesty actually. You made out that you knew what the hell you were talking about .. I merely showed you that you had no idea. Actually .. the Bible itself did that .. I merely posted a verse from it and it was the verse itself which showed you up

Lisa, your deliberate excision of one verse of text did not counter my argument that Jesus was absolving a criminal of punishment (under the Torah)...

My question to you was, do you also agree with absolving 21st century criminals from punishment for the same reason Jesus gave to the 'scribes and Pharisees'?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:38am

Grey wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:20am:

There is a very good reason why God does not reveal himself, openly, to the consciousness of mankind.

Think politicians, and greasy poles.

Self-serving, corrupted individuals.

Not unlike many of those who elected them.

Politicians are our 'representatives', after all.

+++

Serving one's own passions is the greatest slavery.
Thomas Fuller

All is mystery; but he is a slave who will not struggle to penetrate the dark veil.
Benjamin Disraeli

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:40am

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

There is a very good reason why God does not reveal himself, openly, to the consciousness of mankind.

Wow, arrogance of 'Biblical' proportions ;D

You now claim to know the mind of god :o

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:45am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

I merely posted a verse from it and it was the verse itself which showed you up.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/195

Lisa not only is your excision irrelevant to the argument, you also demonstrated that you have only the most superficial of familiarity with Biblical text.

I refer you to
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/180#192

(i.e. "The Romans didn't permit the Jews to carry out their own executions").

You seem to be of the opinion that Romans did not permit Jews to carry out the death penalty.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:50am

Lisa,

Quote:

Also .. you may have noticed that I don't appreciate being asked the same question over and over again AFTER it has been previously answered by me .. simply because someone here isn't bothered to read back.

I am sorry Lisa - I don't have the time to read through all 16 pages.
What was the answer to the question:

Quote:

Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:53am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:40am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

There is a very good reason why God does not reveal himself, openly, to the consciousness of mankind.

Wow, arrogance of 'Biblical' proportions ;D

You now claim to know the mind of god :o

helian,

That is the essential difference between us helian.

You say that it is an arrogance in any man, to seek to know God.

Whereas, ~~i believe~~, ~~i know~~, i arrogantly know, that God wants us to know him.

+++

Numbers 16:5
...the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy;...even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.
22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 4:1
If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.

Jeremiah 15:19
Therefore thus saith the LORD, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:32am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

Helian .. now you want to go over the same circles we covered last night .. over a period of 5 plus hours?? Here's an idea .. read back .. it's all there.

You should now know that the point of the passage was that Jesus was able to skillfully highlight the hypocrisy of RELIGION and that is what I have previously stated to you in this topic.

The fact that the Bible supports what I have recurringly stated has proven to be rather inconvenient and embarrassing for you.

Incidentally .. I care little for your disclosure this morning that you've had a strict Roman Catholic religious upbringing Helian. Even more importantly .. Jesus doesn't care for it either. In fact .. as you may have noted .. Jesus doesn't care much for religion at all. Jesus had a disdain for religion and its hypocrisy and the Bible has many portions which reveal this.

The bottom line?? You have issues .. but they are not with me .. they are with the Bible. It is the Bible which powerfully refuted, undermined and confounded your arguments last night Helian .. all I did was post the relevant verses from the Bible.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword.

- Hebrews 4:12

Hey everyone .. please .. by all means have a read back. This topic was pretty much alive for most of the night and this morning. Heaps of great stuff came up.

Happy reading. Catch you all .. whenever.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:08pm

Lisa,

Quote:

Happy reading. Catch you all .. whenever.

Don't go - now I'll be forced to read through 16 pages
to find your answer to Nail's question. :'(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

You should now know that the point of the passage was that Jesus was able to skillfully highlight the hypocrisy of RELIGION and that is what I have previously stated to you in this topic.

And what I'm saying to you is that the point to the text is more easily explained by the gospel writers' desire to subjugate Judaic law by Roman Law. The text (i.e. Jesus writing in the sand) was a later interpolation to lead a naive reader to interpret that perhaps Jesus was writing the sins of the 'scribes and Pharisees' (although the text does not reveal what was written in the sand).

What I asked of you (which you refuse to acknowledge) is would you will the same (absolution without punishment) for 21st century criminals?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

The fact that the Bible supports what I have recurringly stated

My argument was that it more closely supports the subjugation of Judaic law by Roman law.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Incidentally .. I care little for your disclosure this morning that you've had a strict Roman Catholic religious upbringing Helian.

Are you rejecting the fact that there are countless millions of people who actually have a greater cultural and academic understanding of Biblical texts than you?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Even more importantly .. Jesus doesn't care for it either.

Are you claiming to know the mind of god (via the mind of Jesus) as well ?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

In fact .. as you may have noted .. Jesus doesn't care much for religion at all. Jesus had a disdain for religion and its hypocrisy and the Bible has many portions which reveal this.

No, its the New Testament writers who imply that claim. That wasn't the claim of members of the Jerusalem Council which pre-dates Christianity as the authority of Jesus' legacy.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

The bottom line?? You have issues .. but they are not with me .. they are with the Bible. It is the Bible which powerfully refuted, undermined and confounded your arguments last night Helian .. all I did was post the relevant verses from the Bible.

How can the bible refute my claims, when it is biblical texts I am using? (i.e. Jewish leaders' right to pass the sentence of execution, which you appear to have not been aware of, no doubt using only Jesus' trial as your source of information... Ignoring the execution of John the Baptist by Tetrarch Herod Antipas - as stated in biblical texts).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:08pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:53am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:40am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

There is a very good reason why God does not reveal himself, openly, to the consciousness of mankind.

Wow, arrogance of 'Biblical' proportions ;D

You now claim to know the mind of god :o

You did not say you seek to know god, you claimed you knew god's mind (with particular reference to why he hides from us).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:12pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:08pm:

Lisa,

Quote:

Happy reading. Catch you all .. whenever.

Don't go - now I'll be forced to read through 16 pages
to find your answer to Nail's question. :'(

There is nothing to read. Lisa just can't admit that the bible is completely wrong when it comes to explaining the origins of the Universe. She has to make stuff up and redefine the meaning of words in order to justify the relevance of her bible and yet science is quite happy to change its ideas and theories as new evidence comes to light. Isn't it ironical how no credible scientist uses the bible as a scientific reference ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:16pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:32am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

you are guilty of what you accuse others of doing and that is quoting the bible out of context :( Isn't that typical of course.

And there is no evidence that Jesus even existed. It is just one of many fictional characters in the biblical equivalent of a Harry Potter novel ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:31pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:16pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:32am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

There is some anecdotal evidence that there was a man named Jesus, alive at the times mentioned and in the places mentioned.....
There are records from Roman sources, city records and even some archaeological evidence.....

The whole 'Son of God' thing is neither proved or disproved by any of this...of course...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:53am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:40am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

There is a very good reason why God does not reveal himself, openly, to the consciousness of mankind.

Wow, arrogance of 'Biblical' proportions ;D

You now claim to know the mind of god :o

You did not say you seek to know god, you claimed you knew god's mind (with particular reference to why he hides from us).

helian,

I am no 'mind reader'.

The bible states that God hides himself, removes himself from us, because of our wickedness.

+++

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The bible states, that to do righteousness, is to know God;

Jeremiah 22:16
...was not this to know me? saith the LORD.

What is 'righteousness' ???

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Isaiah 45:19
...I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Amos 5:4
For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Psalms 27:8
When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:42pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:53am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:40am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

There is a very good reason why God does not reveal himself, openly, to the consciousness of mankind.

Wow, arrogance of 'Biblical' proportions ;D

You now claim to know the mind of god :o

You did not say you seek to know god, you claimed you knew god's mind (with particular reference to why he hides from us).

helian,

I am no 'mind reader'.

The bible states that God hides himself, removes himself from us, because of our wickedness.

Your god sounds like a bit of an anal wimp ;D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:48pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:31pm:

Well, actually there's no direct evidence that Jesus existed... Even non-religious sources (i.e. Josephus) only records what the New Testament writers and others decades after the death of Jesus, wrote about him.

However, it is possible to perhaps infer from Biblical texts that Jesus existed. Why, for example, do the New Testament texts go to so much trouble (lie, even) to have Jesus born in Bethlehem as opposed to Nazareth? If he was a fictional character, wouldn't it have been easier just to have recorded Mary and Joseph as having been resident in Bethlehem in the first place?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:42pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:32pm:

helian,

I am no 'mind reader'.

The bible states that God hides himself, removes himself from us, because of our wickedness.

Your god sounds like a bit of an anal wimp ;D

Har-har-har helian.

It is to laugh.

Psalms 95:7
For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

The unrepentant.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:48pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:31pm:

Historically, there WAS a (or several) Roman censuses held during that period....mostly in April to July admittedly....which does tie in with the 'travelling to Bethelem' part of the birth story..

And there was actually a tomb found, which contained coffins listing names including Mary, wife of Joseph...Jesus, son of Joseph, James, son of Joseph etc...
Whether these are a) real inscriptions and b) actually refer to the family of the same Jesus who was mentioned in the bible (they are all fairly common names of that period), has been the source of some pretty nasty arguments in recent years...

Ok, granted this from wiki, which isn't all that reliable....but it's what I mean..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Family_Tomb

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:25pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14pm:

Historically, there WAS a (or several) Roman censuses held during that period....mostly in April to July admittedly....which does tie in with the 'travelling to Bethelem' part of the birth story..

Yes, trouble is the dates of the Census at about the time of Jesus birth, do not coincide with reign of Herod the Great (dying 4BCE), within which the New Testament has Jesus being born, and the Census of Quirinius (circa 6CE). Also a Census of citizens did not require the logistical nightmare of returning people to their place of birth for the Census (which was done for tax purposes - meaning the person's town of employment/permanent residence was more relevant). Can you imagine even today the logistical nightmare of returning citizens to their place of birth!

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14pm:

And there was actually a tomb found, which contained coffins listing names including Mary, wife of Joseph...Jesus, son of Joseph, James, son of Joseph etc...
Whether these are a) real inscriptions and b) actually refer to the family of the same Jesus who was mentioned in the bible (they are all fairly common names of that period), has been the source of some pretty nasty arguments in recent years...

Yes, Joseph, Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) and Jesus (Joshua) were very common names in the 1st century.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:34pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:25pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14pm:

Historically, there WAS a (or several) Roman censuses held during that period....mostly in April to July admittedly....which does tie in with the 'travelling to Bethelem' part of the birth story..

Yes, trouble is the dates of the Census at about the time of Jesus birth, do not coincide with reign of Herod the Great (dying 4BCE), within which the New Testament has Jesus being born, and the Census of Quirinius (circa 6CE). Also a Census of citizens did not require the logistical nightmare of returning people to their place of birth for the Census (which was done for tax purposes - meaning the person's town of employment was more relevant). Can you imagine even today the logistical nightmare of returning citizens to their place of birth!

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14pm:

Yes, Joseph, Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) and Jesus (Joshua) were very common names in the 1st century.

From what I read on the subject of the censuses...is that they took place on a pretty regular basis...there wasn't just one, that'd serve no purpose, they were every 5 or 10 years (I think)..more likely 10 years..

And I'm not postulating that the tombs belongs to the 'Son of God' or anything...just that there may have been a man (named Jesus) alive at the time concerned, who was perhaps used as a 'template' for the NT...

Why??..I don't know....one of the more interesting theories about it was that the Biblical Jesus, rather than being the son of god, was in fact a descendant of the previous ruling family of Israel and he wanted to depose Herod, who was apparently a Roman puppet king, and take the throne back..

Which would mean it was a political, not religious, revolution...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

True, but the first census in that part of Palestine occurred only after the banishment of Herod Archelaus and the imposition of direct Roman rule. Emperors only took a census of Roman territory for direct taxation purposes.

Herod Archelaus was banished from Judea in 6CE. Galilee was ruled by Herod Antipas.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:46pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:13am:

Mohammad copied (stole?) a lot of words from the Bible and Torah.

The Quran says god made man from dirt and mud this is not compatible with evolution!

From Genesis 2:7
The lord god formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,and the man became a living being.
http://bible.cc/genesis/2-7.htm

Where does Darwin say man was made from dirt/dust/mud?

If man was made by god from dirt/dust/mud as the bible-quran-torah claim how is this compatible with evolution?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:59pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

It still fits in though....depending on which 'Herod' the bible meant....as best as I recall, only the the title 'King Herod' was used...so there are 2 or 3 to chose from...Herod the Great, Herod Archelaus or Herod Antipas.

Taking into account that the 'Ministry of Jesus' (his active 'preaching' period) is generally somewhere around 27AD to 36AD, and that Jesus was 'around 30' when he started preaching, the birth date could still fit within the Census of Quirinius...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:08pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

The only King Herod (circa that time) was Herod the Great.

Herod Archelaus was an Ethnarch and Antipas was a Tetrarch.

Also Mary and Joseph, as residents of Galilee, were the subjects of Antipas and not subject to direct Roman rule at the time.

There was certainly a psychological advantage of having Jesus born near 4BCE and therefore subject to Herod the Great's infamous tyranny (the deaths of the innocents - even though there is no evidence this ever took place) as Herod the Great was by 3BCE roundly despised in Palestine even by his own family, many of whom he had executed on suspicion of trying to poison him (which was probably true!).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:08pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

Do you know what the 'biggest' problem with this sort of discussion is????

It's that the whole BC-AD (or BCE-CE) dating system is based on the 'apparent' birth date OF Jesus....So it's entirely possible that the dates we're talking in, are out by anything up to 10 years.....

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:15pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:12pm:

True... But it doesn't explain why subjects of Herod Antipas in Galilee would be subject to a Roman Census in Judea when Galilee was not taxed by Rome but by Antipas.

Nor how Jesus is required be new-born in both 4BCE and 6CE for the New Testament stories to line up.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:16pm:

you are guilty of what you accuse others of doing and that is quoting the bible out of context :( Isn't that typical of course.

More interesting still, is that Lisa is using the same tactics as the Jews used against Jesus, in the bible story she quoted... Argumentative Trickery.

Quote:

Lisa wrote...
In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

Jesus was a Rabbi. Jesus belonged to the Jewish Sect which was The Way. He was baptised into The Way and he preached The Way to the poor mainly. He was a very religious man.

What Jesus was against were the Pharisees... thems that did him in. The Pharisees were more than a religion, they were a social movement on the precipice of becoming a political party.

Quote:

The Last Nail wrote...
And there is no evidence that Jesus even existed. It is just one of many fictional characters in the biblical equivalent of a Harry Potter novel ;)

Quote:

To Tiberius Caesar and the Senate of Rome from Herod Antipas
[excerpt]

As to what Pontius Pilate says in regard to my cowardice and disobedience in the case of Jesus of Nazareth, I will say in my own defence: I ws informed by all the Jews that this was the same Jesus that my father aimed to destroy in his infancy; for I have it in my father's private writings and accounts of his life, showing that when the report was circulated of three men inquiring where was he that was born King of the Jews, he called together the Hillel and Shammai schools, and demanded the reading of the sacred scrolls; that it was decided he was to be born in Bethlehem of Judea, as read and interpreted that night by Hillel. So when my father learned that there was a birth of a male child in Bethlehem under very strange circumstances, and he could not learn who nor where the child was, he sent and had the male children slain that were near his age. Afterward he learned that his mother had taken him and fled into the wilderness. For this attempt to uphold the Roman authority in the land of Judea the world has not ceased to curse him to this day; and yet the Caesars have done a thousand worse things, and done them a thousand times, and it was all well. Just think how many lives have been lost to save the Roman Empire; while those infants were only removed in their innocence from the evil to come. The proper way to judge of action is to let the actor judge, or the one with whom the action terminates. If this should be done, and there is a life of happiness beyond for innocence to dwell in, those infants as well as the Rachels should be thankful to my father for the change. Again, my lords, Pilate is a higher officer than I; and you know in our law the lower court always has the right to appeal to the higher. As to Pilate's saying that Jesus was a Galilean, he is mistaken. Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, as the records show. And as to his citizenship, he had none. He wandered about from place to place, having no home, making his abode principally with the poor. He was a wild fanatic, who had taken up the doctrines of John (but not his baptism), and was quite an enthusiast. He had learned sooth-saying, while in Egypt, to perfection. I tried to get him to perform some miracle while in my court, but he was too sharp to be caught in a trap; like all necromancers, he was afraid to show off before the intelligent. From what I could learn he had reprimanded some of the rich Jews for their meanness, and his reproaches were not out of the way, from what I heard they would have been much better men if they had practised what he preached.

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:55pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Just saying it is so does not make it so... Your statement is evidential and so needs evidence.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:15pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:12pm:

It doesn't???......What is unusual about a 'state' taxing it's subjects and then passing the money/info on to a larger group, like a government??

In NSW we pay taxes to the NSW Gov...but still have to fill out the Australian (Federal) Census forms......taxes and census are not always the same thing....
The feudal system of England was similar....the Lords collected tax money from the serfs and lesser landholders, so they could send the required tithe to the king....

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:06pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Just saying it is so does not make it so... Your statement is evidential and so needs evidence.

As does yours.

However, even the Vatican does not acknowledge the authenticity of this letter nor many allegedly written by Pilate.

Also no Tetrarch would speak so brazenly towards an Emperor... That would only occur as an apocryphal document written when it was safe to be seen to address a long dead non-Christian Emperor in that manner long after the old Empire had been Christianised and the period 1CE - 3CE widely considered as corrupt and sinful.

It blatantly tries to undo the obvious irreconcilability of Jesus birth circa 4BC and in Bethlehem and his birth just prior to the Census of Quirinius (6CE), spuriously attempting to give historical credence to the Gospels' birth accounts. They should've stuck to St Mark's story.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:12pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:15pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:12pm:

It doesn't???......What is unusual about a 'state' taxing it's subjects and then passing the money/info on to a larger group, like a government??

Antipas was given Tetrarchy over Galilee and Perea by his father, which was endorsed by Augustus.

Antipas as Tetrarch was required to pay tribute to Rome, other than that Rome rarely interfered in peaceful territories under its overlordship.

Antipas could raise taxes himself over his Tetrarchy. So long as Rome received its tribute, they had little interest in the internal affairs of non-Roman governed territories unless they became of concern to the Empire.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:18pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Just saying it is so does not make it so... Your statement is evidential and so needs evidence.

Even without the religious angle.....we're STILL using 2000+ yr old records, from at least three different cultures (all of which used different calendars and dating systems) to decode what happened...
There's no real guarantee that whoever first aligned the Greek, Roman and Hebrew calendars with our contemporary dating system was actually right on the money.....

Bear in mind the 'original' Roman calendar only had 10 months and 304 days...and was based on the lunar cycle...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:29pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Just saying it is so does not make it so... Your statement is evidential and so needs evidence.

No doubt, but there was, without doubt, a 10 year gap between the death of Herod the Great and the Census. Jesus could not have been newborn at both events.

There's an obvious reason why the Gospel writers were so desperate to have Jesus born in Bethlehem, of course (even to the point of fabricating his birth story which does not appear in Mark but in Matthew and Luke which are younger and primarily based on Mark). Messiahship... The Messiah was prophesied to come from the City of David - Bethlehem. Unfortunately for the Gospel writers, Jesus was not born in Bethlehem.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:33pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Just saying it is so does not make it so... Your statement is evidential and so needs evidence.

Pfft... of course the Catholic Faith is going to question the validity of that letter... Jesus is tagged as a fake.

Otherwise, you seem to forget that Herod was a friend amongst the Roman elite... he studied with them... he played in his youth with them... so it is no surprise that he spoke in more liberal terms with them.

What about this then....

Quote:

The Babylonian Talmud

It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and God said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him." Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:41pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Just saying it is so does not make it so... Your statement is evidential and so needs evidence.

You seem to have forgotten that the Popes, by the 7th century had assumed the role and titles of the old Emperors and the Vatican had inherited the administration of the Empire. The Popes, by then, had no admiration at all for the Emperors prior to Constantine the Great, in fact they were roundly despised in the new Christian world as venal.

The Vatican would have every reason to support the validity of letters that gave credence to the ridiculous chronological errors in the Gospels, if they were authentic.

Jesus is disparaged in those letters by rulers who themselves are despised in the Gospels - The Gospels being the highest authority on Christian and temporal matters by the 7th century.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm

Just for the record :

I believe Jesus probably existed as an historical figure.

I believe he was not born in Bethlehem, so could not have fulfilled the requirements of Scripture for Messiahship.

I do not believe he considered himself the Messiah (or the 'Son of God').

I believe the Jesus story became the story of 'Christ' (Messiah) via Pauline doctrine.

I believe Jesus was virtually unknown in Palestine during his lifetime.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

LOL... that's all you got... Just insults and personal opinion backed up with personal belief most likely born of a... oh you don't know... it's just a feeling is all.

Helian is a good name for you... reminds me of Helium... very light weight.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by freediver on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:21pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

You should start a new thread on that.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:21pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

Gee, didn't pick you as the bitchy type.

So far, you've dredged up apocryphal letters, well known to be written centuries after the time to which they refer... Thought you were better than that.

Do some reading there, girl... Or... maybe you can reconcile the, now almost universally acknowledged, contradictions and errors in the New Testament books.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:29pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Then how do you account for this letter from Herod to Tiberius?

The question is, how do you account for it?

It is dated from the 6th - 7th centuries CE.

Just saying it is so does not make it so... Your statement is evidential and so needs evidence.

And what is the reason???

Any way you look at it...it's pretty specious to 'worry' about the birth location...
I'm sorry, but how does a religious reference to a birth location affect historical facts???

Don't sweat so much about the 'Gospel'...think more about the historical ideas...It's NOT so much about whether Jesus was 'God's' son....it's about whether Jesus ever lived AT ALL....Yes I understand the ex-catholic, 'I hate the church' concept...because I feel the same way.....that doesn't erase the idea that a man named 'Jesus' did live at the times mentioned....he may not have done the miracles or been the 'son of god'...but he most likely DID life...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:37pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:12pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:08pm:

Lisa,

Quote:

Happy reading. Catch you all .. whenever.

Don't go - now I'll be forced to read through 16 pages
to find your answer to Nail's question. :'(

Are you sure Nail?
Maybe the answer is hidden in there somewhere?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:38pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

And what is the reason???

The reason? New Testament writers claim that Jesus was the Messiah.

It was of paramount importance to the authors of the Jesus birth story that he had to be born in Bethlehem - The City of David, which is why all the effort in the NT nativity stories to make sure he was born there.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

Any way you look at it...it's pretty specious to 'worry' about the birth location...
I'm sorry, but how does a religious reference to a birth location affect historical facts???

It's a worry to those ancient Pauline writers who had it in their heads that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

he may not have done the miracles or been the 'son of god'...but he most likely DID life...

Yes, I agree... He probably existed as an historical figure. (I have said so 2 or 3 times above).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:38pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

And what is the reason???

The reason? New Testament writers claim that Jesus was the Messiah.
It was of paramount importance to the authors of the Jesus birth story that he had to be born in Bethlehem - The City of David, which is why all the effort in the NT nativity stories to make sure he was born there.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

Any way you look at it...it's pretty specious to 'worry' about the birth location...
I'm sorry, but how does a religious reference to a birth location affect historical facts???

[highlight]It's a worry to those ancient Pauline writers who had it in their heads that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.[/highlight]
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

he may not have done the miracles or been the 'son of god'...but he most likely DID life...

Yes, I agree... He probably existed as an historical figure. (I have said so 2 or 3 times above).

1) The reason? New Testament writers claim that Jesus was the Messiah.
Yeah but that's a 'political' idea...and not really 'true'

2) [highlight]It's a worry to those ancient Pauline writers who had it in their heads that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.[/highlight]
And again...it's 'political, not historical...

3) The City of David, which is why all the effort in the NT nativity stories to make sure he was born there.

Well the City of David is (possibly) important to the whole Jesus story...since Jesus WAS(apparently), the Scion of the House of David and therefore the Wearer of the Crown of Israel...

"Yes, I agree... He probably existed as an historical figure. (I have said so 2 or 3 times above)."
Which means that he wasn't the 'Son of God'...but 'may' have been a political opponent of the Roman Regime...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:02pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, you ARE WRONG....
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/pontius-pilate-faq.htm
http://www.bandoli.no/historicalrecords.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
http://users.binary.net/polycarp/jesus.html

Whether or not you accept the 'Son of God' idea....the MAN Jesus was probably 'REAL'.......according to historical sources....

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:03pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:38pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

And what is the reason???

The reason? New Testament writers claim that Jesus was the Messiah.
It was of paramount importance to the authors of the Jesus birth story that he had to be born in Bethlehem - The City of David, which is why all the effort in the NT nativity stories to make sure he was born there.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

Any way you look at it...it's pretty specious to 'worry' about the birth location...
I'm sorry, but how does a religious reference to a birth location affect historical facts???

[highlight]It's a worry to those ancient Pauline writers who had it in their heads that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.[/highlight]
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

he may not have done the miracles or been the 'son of god'...but he most likely DID life...

1. Yes, it was political, but was transmogrified into a spiritual status by Pauline Christians

2. Yes, the new Christian movement inherited the idea of Messianism from its direct predecessor Messianic Judaism, but it was considered a spiritual role by Pauline Christians.

3. But as the Gospel of Matthew tells us, Jesus is related to David via Joseph (not Mary), thereby putting paid to his 'seed of David' claim through descent from his father.

4. He may have been an unsuccessful political opponent of Rome who paid for his crime by the harshest known Roman punishment reserved for the worst criminals and insurrectionists - Crucifixion.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:05pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

Do some reading eh? Want to suggest a non-catholic text which references this apparently erroneous letter, or link it for that matter... if it's so well know it would be on the net too.

As to the bitchy remark... what do you expect when you start these silly flaming, deflecting games?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

Come on now, Sapph... Chill out... It ain't like it's life or death.

Find a website of a widely respected biblical scholar (say, Eisenman, but there are others)... And you'll find out all you need to know about the myriad forgeries and interpolations that have occurred during the first 500 years of Christendom.

BTW the Catholic Church ain't all bad when it comes to the truth... They even accept the 'Donation of Constantine' was a forgery.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! :P

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Find a website of a widely respected biblical scholar (say, Eisenman, but there are others)... And you'll find out all you need to know about the myriad forgeries and interpolations that have occurred during the first 500 years of Christendom.

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

Nonetheless, in my search for the truth in your spurious claims, I happened upon this....

Quote:

John 7:53 to 8:11: One of the most famous forgeries* in the Bible is the well-known story of the woman observed in adultery. It was apparently written and inserted after John 7:52 by an unknown author, perhaps in the 5th century CE. This story is often referred to as an "orphan story" because it is a type of floating text which has appeared after John 7:36, John 7:52, John 21:25, and Luke 21:38 in various manuscripts. Some scholars believe that the story may have had its origins in oral traditions about Jesus.
It is a pity that the status of verses John 8:1-11 are not certain. If they were known to be a reliable description of Jesus' ministry, they would have given a clear indication of Jesus' stance on the death penalty.

What say you about this one Lisa?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:57pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

Humblest apologies, all my sources are in the form of books I have gathered over the many years of my de-Catholicism :)

One I have suggested to you (all 1000 pages of it) was Eisenman's "James the Brother of Jesus". You can order it online.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:05pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

Quote:

What say you about this one Lisa?

Good work there Sapph... John 8 3:11 was quoted by Lisa as her self-declared coup de grâce. I did suggest to her it was an interpolation... But... well... y'know these Christians and their misguided faith in the veracity of Biblical texts. ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

From what I have found so far the main complaint about the ancient letters is that the dates do not coincide with the date of Christ's crucifixion. That's a pretty weak premise to work off since everyone knows that the date of the birth and death of Christ are contentious.

Interestingly, I have found no commentary on the forgery of King Herod's letter.

Now you say it is a well know forgery, but cannot even site a book or requote a passage to justify that claim. Not even your "James, brother of Jesus" makes reference to it.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:20pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

Don't worry, I'm rifling even as you wrote.

I can tell you that not one document claimed to have been written from the birth of Jesus until his death has ever been proved authentic, nor any 'letters' from Antipas or Pilate RE Jesus. Not a single one.

His crucifixion must have almost literally been a non-event... If it happened at all, he was one in a long line of non-Roman citizen nobodies who were executed for some form of insurrection.

Biblical scholars suggest it was due to the ruckus he caused in the Temple that triggered his arrest by Roman (not Jewish) authorities and was summarily executed... And that would have been the end of his story, if not for the strange Messianic movement he belonged to and the bizarre conversion of a well-bred, well connected, well related, zealous, scholarly and charismatic Roman citizen - Saul of Tarsus.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:26pm

More info on Antipas and Pilate RE Christianity...

By the time the first Christian texts were written (Acts circa late 50s CE), both Pilate and Antipas had both been exiled (both in the mid to late 30s CE) and by the 40s CE, they were both dead, so it is unlikely they ever knew of the central role their legacy was to play in the Christian psychodrama.

Christians in Rome did not attract much negative attention until the reign of Claudius. Their reputation descended rapidly (and were not distinguished from Jews at the time) and was at an all time low during the reign of Nero (who ultimately accused them of attempting to destroy Rome by fire).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

You are checking the index aren't you? Such a thing would be found in the index.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Haven't found it yet... Interesting though that Christianity was a minuscule movement even after the deaths of both Pilate and Antipas.

What possible reasons would Antipas have to write such an impassioned and brazen letter to Tiberius about Jesus when Antipas was dead by circa 40 CE ! Years before the first Christian texts appeared even mentioning his name!

Even Josephus only wrote only two small passages referring to Jesus (and written after the Jewish Revolt after 80CE), most of which has been demonstrated to be later Christian interpolations. He had more to say about James.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:49pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:03pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:38pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

And what is the reason???

The reason? New Testament writers claim that Jesus was the Messiah.
It was of paramount importance to the authors of the Jesus birth story that he had to be born in Bethlehem - The City of David, which is why all the effort in the NT nativity stories to make sure he was born there.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

Any way you look at it...it's pretty specious to 'worry' about the birth location...
I'm sorry, but how does a religious reference to a birth location affect historical facts???

[highlight]It's a worry to those ancient Pauline writers who had it in their heads that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.[/highlight]
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

he may not have done the miracles or been the 'son of god'...but he most likely DID life...

1)Yes, that's the point
2)Yes, that's the point
3)Yes that's the point
4)Yes, that's the point

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! :P

' I was right!'...NO you weren't...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! :P

Gizmo -
I am still waiting for your humble - on your knees - apology.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:51pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! :P

[highlight]Gizmo -
I am still waiting for your humble - on your knees - apology.[/highlight]

Read UP...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:51pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:49pm:

1)Yes, that's the point
2)Yes, that's the point
3)Yes that's the point
4)Yes, that's the point

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you 6 pages ago... Have another read!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:51pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:49pm:

1)Yes, that's the point
2)Yes, that's the point
3)Yes that's the point
4)Yes, that's the point

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you 6 pages ago... Have another read!

Umm can you list a postnumber, or a date/time??...It's a little to hard to 'find' the post, 6 pages ago...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Caius was an enemy of Herod and suspected him of acting against Rome... accused him even... and on more than one occasion. It was Caius who was instrumental in having Herod exiled.

In such a climate, Herod's motives would be at question and he would know it well, so there was a need to carefully and clearly extricate himself from rumour and accusation.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Against a religion that virtually did not exist? He had more to answer for over his execution of John the Baptist.

BTW Eisenman cannot find evidence (outside Christian texts) that Jesus was even associated with John. While John and James attract the attention of writers of the time, Jesus attracts no comment whatsoever.

Yes, Antipas fell out with Caligula... Encouraged by his Antipas's nephew.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:30pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

The letter which I reference also justifies his actions concerning John the Baptist. And Herod is not necessarily defending himself against a religion that did not exist, he is defending his actions against the Laws of Rome as they applied to the Jesus crucifixion.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:38pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Firstly the 'letter' also refers to 'deaths of the innocents' under Herod the Great which did not arise in the Christian story until well after Antipas' death. Nearly all religious scholars will agree that the 'deaths of the innocents' did not occur.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:48pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:08pm:

Lisa,

Quote:

Happy reading. Catch you all .. whenever.

Don't go - now I'll be forced to read through 16 pages
to find your answer to Nail's question. :'(

Bobby .. I'm back (but only for a little while).

I'm away on business atm and as such I'm pretty busy.

Now .. have you had a chance to read this topic yet?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:50pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:38pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Good point. However, that many, and not most scholars will argue, they believe it did not occur because it is not mentioned by Josephus in his histories. Nonetheless, there are others who argue that the death of a few innocents in a small Jewish village is not the kind of history that Josephus was interested in.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:52pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

You should now know that the point of the passage was that Jesus was able to skillfully highlight the hypocrisy of RELIGION and that is what I have previously stated to you in this topic.

The fact that the Bible supports what I have recurringly stated

My argument was that it more closely supports the subjugation of Judaic law by Roman law.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Incidentally .. I care little for your disclosure this morning that you've had a strict Roman Catholic religious upbringing Helian.

Even more importantly .. Jesus doesn't care for it either.

Are you claiming to know the mind of god (via the mind of Jesus) as well ?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

In fact .. as you may have noted .. Jesus doesn't care much for religion at all. Jesus had a disdain for religion and its hypocrisy and the Bible has many portions which reveal this.

Nothing in the Bible supports your claims or ideas. And that is why I keep re iterating that your problem is not with me .. but with the Bible itself.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:54pm

Also, Antipas's issue with John the Baptist was both his popularity with Galileans and his vocal condemnation of Antipas's divorce from his first wife and his second marriage to his brother's wife. This prompted Antipas's Father-in-law to wage a successful war against Antipas.

Nothing to do with religion...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:58pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

I was about to post something a little more descriptive. But your post pretty much sums things up rather well Sappho.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:58pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:50pm:

Yet not a single writer (other than Christian writers) mention it at all. And when it is mentioned, it is decades after the timeline within which it supposedly took place... Such an outrage and not a word of condemnation... Antipas marries his brother's wife and it starts a war! Herod murders babies en-masse and no reference to it is ever made... Yet every other atrocity Herod committed, including within his own family, is well documented.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:00pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:58pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

I was about to post something a little more descriptive. But your post pretty much sums things up rather well Sappho.

So, how are you going with John 8 1:11 there Lisa?

How about the Jewish right to execution? Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

The Holy Bible begs to differ with your beliefs.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:07pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

The Holy Bible begs to differ with your beliefs.

Depends on which bible you're referring to... What with all those additions and redactions, who knows what the truth is... The NT wouldn't be a good place to start looking for it (the truth that is)

How's John 8 1:11 going?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:08pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:45am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

I merely posted a verse from it and it was the verse itself which showed you up.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/195

You poor thing. You're STILL struggling to come to terms with the fact that I made a fool out of you last night.

I've recurringly stated to you .. READ THE BIBLE BEFORE you start quoting it to me.

Had you done this last night .. you would have seen that you were posting crap lol!

Ah well .. we live and learn eh Helian.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:10pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

The Holy Bible begs to differ with your beliefs.

The only additions and reductions I've seen are those which you've attempted to disguise in your posts over the past 48 hours.

Incidentally .. have you had any sleep?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:11pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:08pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:45am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

I merely posted a verse from it and it was the verse itself which showed you up.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/195

As I said the 'text' you quoted was an interpolation... But, of course, you wouldn't know that.

You understand the bible the way a parrot understands what it means when it says "Hello".

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:13pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:10pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

The Holy Bible begs to differ with your beliefs.

The only additions and reductions I've seen are those which you've attempted to disguise in your posts over the past 48 hours.

Maybe you could ask Sappho about the John 8 interpolation.... You like her, don't you?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:29pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

Quote:

What say you about this one Lisa?

Bump for Lisa... It might help to explain the ribbing Helian is giving you atm.

To Helian,
I did find something which shows that the document could be, not necessarily a fogery, but definitely tampered with.

Your busy atm with Lisa, so we'll leave it there for now. Remind me next week and I'll dig it up again and tell you about it.

Ultimately though, all histories are tampered stories.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Aussie on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:31pm

Even those you refer to Sappho?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:32pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:29pm:

Ultimately though, all histories are tampered stories.

That's true, but here's the thing... Few Christians (and no "neo-Christians") understand that about Biblical text.

Fundamentalism requires that they believe every word as if it were direct from a deity itself.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:35pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:08pm:

Lisa,

Quote:

Happy reading. Catch you all .. whenever.

Don't go - now I'll be forced to read through 16 pages
to find your answer to Nail's question. :'(

Bobby .. I'm back (but only for a little while).

I'm away on business atm and as such I'm pretty busy.

Now .. have you had a chance to read this topic yet?

No sorry - I was too busy.
I did reply to Gizmo though.
Can you find it?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:50pm

bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:29pm:

Ultimately though, all histories are tampered stories.

Ok... I concede the point... I'm satisfied that the letter I quoted is a forgery and I have the evidence to prove it so and that evidence is the history of the forgery itself.

It's quite a story, but bloody hard to find... amazing that Christians will use such letters as these and pass them off as real.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:02pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time ;)

Hi Nail,
We still can't get answers for simple questions like that.
Why won't the Bible believers just become rational for 1 minute
& accept that such a simple statement pulls their whole story apart?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:03pm

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:05pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:02pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time ;)

Yes they are so sure of their beliefs and bible but are dumbfounded when it comes to answering seemingly obvious questions :) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Aussie on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:08pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time ;)

Not before his time at all. They were late for the boat, is all.

:D

See, easy.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Sappho on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:16pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:26pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 6:08pm:

As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.

muso wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 9:38am:

Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.

Yep ..

We know know that the biblical quote from Lisa is a well known forgery... that the letter I quoted from King Herod is an extraordinary forgery... that Lisa refuses to explore the idea of dinosaurs in biblical times and that Nail, Bobby and Helian revel in the teasing of Lisa.

What's say we try and get back on topic? Radical concept I know, but it may prove interesting.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:40pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:08pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time ;)

Not before his time at all. They were late for the boat, is all.

:D

See, easy.

Or maybe the doors on the boat weren't big enough for the dinosaurs to fit through so they got left behind :D LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:44am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian, wrote:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 1:09am

Frances wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:44am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's a forgery

Quote:

Four historians are typically referenced to justify Jesus’s existence: Pliny the younger, Suetonius, Tacitus are the first three. Each one of their entries consists of only a few sentences at best and only refer to “Christus” or the Christ, which in fact is not name but a title. It means the “Anointed one.” The fourth source is Josephus, and this source has been proven to be a forgery for hundreds of years. Sadly, it is still cited as truth.

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 7:22am

Frances wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:44am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The above is not quite what we have of Josephus's first of only 2 small references to Jesus, written around 90 CE and based on what was told to him by his contemporaries. The highlighted sentences are what nearly all religious historians agree are later Christian interpolations into the text.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

So all historians agree that the following is the most Josephus wrote about Jesus :

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Bearing in mind that Josephus was just reporting what was received wisdom by 90CE and did not bother to investigate further, which indicates how irrelevant Christianity was even by 90CE.

Jesus was clearly a largely unheard of and irrelevant historical figure during the 1st century CE. Josephus's reference to him barely confirms that he existed at all.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 9:13am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Just for the record :

#1,
I believe Jesus probably existed as an historical figure.

#2,
I believe he was not born in Bethlehem, so could not have fulfilled the requirements of Scripture for Messiahship.

#3,
I do not believe he considered himself the Messiah (or the 'Son of God').

#4,
I believe the Jesus story became the story of 'Christ' (Messiah) via Pauline doctrine.

#5,
I believe Jesus was virtually unknown in Palestine during his lifetime.

So your position is the the Gospel(s) account of Jesus, and of his life, was [in your opinion] largely all a fabrication and untrue ?

Point 3, especially, is in conflict with the Gospel(s) account of what Jesus [supposedly] stated about himself.

i.e.
The Gospel(s) account clearly shows that Jesus did claim to be the Jewish Messiah, and be divine.

But of course, if the Gospel(s) account of Jesus life, was largely all a fabrication and untrue, then Jesus would not have been the Jewish Messiah.

And if your assertion, point 2, is correct, then Jesus himself would must likely have been in on the deception too ???

So, for any individual, it all hinges upon whether you can believe that the Gospel(s) and NT account of Jesus, and of his life, was true.

1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Luke 24:13
And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Yes, it is an unbelievable account isn't it.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 9:42am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:02pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time ;)

"What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??"

"Is Religion compatible with Evolution?"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/213#213

"Is Religion compatible with Evolution?"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/218#218

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by muso on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 9:58am

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by franfran on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:28pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 7:22am:

Bearing in mind that Josephus was just reporting what was received wisdom by 90CE and did not bother to investigate further, which indicates how irrelevant Christianity was even by 90CE.

Jesus was clearly a largely unheard of and irrelevant historical figure during the 1st century CE. Josephus's reference to him barely confirms that he existed at all.

Given that the Romans were persecuting the Christians in an effort to eliminate the religion altogether, it is unlikely that there would be many commentators writing about them. Certainly, there are numerous writings mentioning Jesus, but the problem with using most of them as evidence is that they were practically all written by Christians. From an objective point of view, you have to look for something that is written by someone who was not a follower of Christ

From The Talmud

Quote:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover

Pliny the Younger (governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor) (61 AD – ca. 112 AD)

Quote:

They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117) - Annals 15.44

Quote:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Quote:

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:45pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 9:42am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:02pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time ;)

that's not an answer. that's just your twisted opinion based on zero evidence.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:47pm

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:49pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:47pm:

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?

Because he died like everyone else.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 1:01pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:47pm:

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?

2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

The world says;

Jesus is dead.
God is a myth.
The theory of evolution, is a scientific fact.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 1:09pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:47pm:

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?

And the theory of God is backed up by what facts and evidence ??

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 2:24pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:49pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:47pm:

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?

Because he died like everyone else.

That's pretty much it Bobby....
IF he had been a supernatural entity (Son of the Creator, etc)...he really wouldn't have BEEN cruxified...
As a friend of mine used to say, years ago.....how many REAL witches were burned at the stake, during the Persecution of Witches in the Middle Ages????.....answer: none...because it's so hard for frogs to light matches....

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 8:19pm

Frances wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 12:28pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 7:22am:

Yes, the Christian movement had its problems in the 1st century CE.

To confuse things further, Romans did not distinguish between austere Orthodox Judaism, Messianic Judaism and Pauline Christianity.

However, Jesus was not initially associated with Pauline Christianity but with the more extreme Messianic Judaism. He never, in his lifetime, met Saul/Paul and anyone who knew Jesus (given that he existed at all) would not have associated him with the strange Jewish 'perversion' that was Paul's idea of the legacy of Jesus.

According to Robert Eisenman, however, Josephus, did have some association with the Essenes and Eisenman suggests that his largely benign (if fleeting) references to Jesus were the result of that association.

Other writers (circa Jesus' time) may have taken a dimmer view of Jesus (regarding his more obvious involvement with Messianic Judaism as demonstrated by James) and if they wrote about him in depth in that negative light, those documents would have been unlikely to survive later Christian purges of anti-Jesus accounts.

As it stands the Gospel of Peter portrays a much more angry and violent Jesus than the four Gospels of the NT (even if that gospel is considered a forgery).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 8:32pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 9:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

My opinion is that the Jesus we know of today is entirely a Pauline fabrication.

The Gospels' account of what Jesus said are so full of interpolations or recollections by Pauline sympathisers or tainted by the religious 'war' raging between Paul and James of the Jerusalem Council over the legacy of Jesus, that anything Pauline Christianity has to say about Jesus (particularly what he said and did) is highly questionable in terms of historical fact.

I doubt Jesus was in on any deception and likely never considered himself the Messiah. If he did, then he failed in fulfilling his mission as a Jewish Messiah and he would have known that himself. The Jewish Messiah had a military role who, through god's favour, would save the Jews from their enemies... Not change sides and work for enemies of Judaism. The 'spiritual' Messiah was entirely a Pauline idea and Jesus didn't live to determine his Pauline legacy.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 8:04am

One final point regarding Paul's mission.

When Saul had his 'Road to Damascus' experience, he did not convert to 'Pauline Christianity', he converted to Messianic Judaism as defined by the Jerusalem Council led by James. He initially submitted to James' authority and began evangelising the Council's doctrine to non-Jews.

We can take from this that the ghostly Jesus, he claimed communed with him, did not command him to countermand James' orders and initially he followed James instructions.

Not so long after his conversion, he unilaterally takes it on himself to diverge from the Council's doctrine and begins evangelising something completely different - effectively a new religion.

It has been suggested that he did this because non-Jews could not and would not convert to Judaism (initially a Council requirement, prior to advancing to Messianic Judaism) as Judaism was seen by 'Gentiles' as unreasonably austere.

Initially James appears to have acceded to the idea that non-Jews would never accept full submission to Mosaic Law, but Paul pushed the point so far that James finally drew the line against Paul and sent agents to undo the damage Paul was doing to the Messianic movement and demanded Paul stand before the Council to account for his 'heresy'. Those arguments are laid out in Acts (with a Pauline bias, of course).

To cut a long story short, we can take from this that Jesus obviously never directed Paul to diverge from Judaism evidenced by the fact that, directly after his conversion, Paul submitted to the Council as the highest authority on the Messianic movement's orthodoxy.

So, what has all this got to do with religion and the theory of evolution being (in)compatible? All Religion is based on doctrine which (at least in principle) is necessarily immutable (i.e. It's doctrine does not evolve - except by mistranslation, misinterpretation, deceptive interpolation and redaction). It is, in that regard, incompatible with science which openly accedes to the inevitability (or at least the probability) of change to its doctrines.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by pansi1951 on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 8:39am

Helian, Have you studied theology? you seem to have very good knowledge of the bible. I have read some of John Shelby Spong's books and I'm sure he would agree with what you are saying. He is a retired bishop and has studied the holy bible for probably 60 years or more.

I really think to understand the bible and Christian religion, you have to have the guts to be prepared to stand alone if you should happen to come to the conclusion that there is no 'protector' God in the heavens who is hanging out waiting to give one a serve and the other a gift, for no obvious reason.

Spong reckons you can follow a Christian faith without believing that the bible was God breathed, but it would be so far removed from the church of today that we wouldn't recognise it.

I can't see how you can believe in both creation and evolution. Maybe ditch the bible story and say there was a God that caused the big bang, if you really need a God, then you can have both....sort of.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 8:46am

Pansi, Yes I have read and listened to Spong and I agree with him completely. I believe that if 'Christianity' has any chance of survival, it will be along the lines that Spong proposes.

Have I studied, Theology? No, not in the formal sense, but as any ex-Catholic will affirm, the process of de-Catholicism requires many years of commitment to the truth behind the fantasy of the doctrine.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 8:44am

helian,

Thanks for your considered response, in posts #346, #347

It is good to at least understand your own perspective on the Jesus 'issue', and your own perceptions regarding 'Pauline' Christianity.

As i have already stated....
"So, for any individual, it all hinges upon whether you can believe that the Gospel(s) and NT account of Jesus, and of his life, was true."

And i do.

As i examine the account of Jesus life, and take into in consideration the OT scripture relating to the history of the Jewish people, to me, it all [collectively, but not wholly] makes sense.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:50am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 8:46am:

There is nothing to study. It is an old book written by ignorant peasants which is somehow given more attention than it deserves.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:02am

Quote:

Poppycock!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUjd8x-1xM0&feature=related

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Grey on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:12am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJUkEW7u41A&feature=related

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by boogieman on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 6:12am

Frances wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:37am:

link to original article

There's nothing in religion that negates evolution at all. The Creationisrs are the ones who started this isue because they didn't like being "monkeys".

The truth is though that religion is incompatible with everything as it's a fraud, a fake, a lie of gigantic proportions.

Like any good lie, the more often it's repeated the more people will believe it.

But it's still a lie.

With photos of the Big Bang now available it becomes more obvious that some God did not create anything at all. Except doubt.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 7:26am

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 8:44am:

The thing is that, really, its the essence of the Christian message which should be important... Being (1) living one's life by the golden rule - to do to others only that which you'd have done to you (or - that which is hateful to you, do not do to others), (2) Love one's neighbour as oneself. The second 'rule' requiring, of course, that the adherent learn to love / respect himself first such that he can reflect that degree of respect towards others (all respect being essentially self-respect) and (3) To ensure one's actions are guided by those principles.

Christian mythology is incidental and essentially irrelevant... Who cares whether or not Jesus was actually the 'Messiah' whose coming was foretold by the 'Prophets'?, Who cares whether there were or were not 12 apostles, or that Jesus did or did not perform miracles? Or whether he was born in Bethlehem or somewhere in Galilee, or that he was born of a virgin, or whether or not he rose from the dead. These were just stories conjured up by great storytellers to appease ancient and superstitious peoples who required that the central religious figure be a better / stronger / abler 'god' than the local competition!

None of the ridiculous Christian mythological baggage is worth even 5 minutes consideration when contemplating one's answer to the greatest of moral and ethical questions, 'How should I live?'.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by jakub on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 9:31am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 7:26am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 8:44am:

Just shows how badly most of them miss the point......

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 9:35am

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 8:46am:

There is nothing to study. It is an old book written by ignorant peasants which is somehow given more attention than it deserves.

Hear hear Nail !
Bronze age myth that plays on peoples fear of death.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by boogieman on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 7:53am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 9:35am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 8:46am:

There is nothing to study. It is an old book written by ignorant peasants which is somehow given more attention than it deserves.

Hear hear Nail !
Bronze age myth that plays on peoples fear of death.

Actually it wasn' written by ignorant peasants at all. And, further, Christianity as a religion did not fully exist until around 300 AD. Prior to that there were many small groups claiming differing beliefs in a God and all claiming to be the one religion. They had similar basics but different beliefs and rituals. You might say it was much like today where there are so many versions of Christians you can't count them.

The Bible as we know it did not exist until around 300 AD. Prior to that there were various documents that were written by what you call ignorant peasants. Given semi God like status today for some reason.

The person who had the Bible written as one book was the Roman Emperor Constantine who himself converted to Christianity and appointed himself head of this new religion.

He had his gathering of priests and scholars gather as much documentation as they could and instructed them to put it all together to make a cohesive narrative, convincing to the minds of that time.

It has been since rewritten of course and many things have been changed but Constantine is really the person who combined all those splinter religions into one. You see he had his writers include as many rituals and quotes as possible from all the smaller groups so they were included.

Brilliant strategy actually as he turned his enemies into followers by doing what he did.

Why did he become Christian himself? It was because of a dream he had just before yet another big battle. He dreamt he won the battle but he carried a large cross into and during that battle.

So you could say Christianity is all one man's dream, but however you look at it it is not real or true. There is no God.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:44pm

boogieman wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 7:53am:

They were ignorant peasants making incorrect and unsubstantiated claims about the origins of the Universe and then persecuting anyone that didn't tow their line :(

And the 3 day resurrection, virgin birth, heaven and hell are ideas that are all plagiarized from ancient religions.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:46pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 11:06am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 10:17am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.
Evolution, is a theory.

Evolution is a scientific fact

.....the theory explains how it happens.

Where as religion is made up of legends, and urban myths.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:55pm

and the theory of God is backed up by what evidence ??

where is the evidence Yadda ?? just some old book written by ignorant peasants ;) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by boogieman on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:22pm

Hey Yadda and your ignorant friends.

You do understand that saying the same thing over and over ad nauseum never makes it true don't you. When you do that do you know who you are actually trying to convince?

Of course you do. Yourselves. ONLY. So each time you do that remember to be polite as you are addressing yourself.

You do make a good case against evolution though. Your lack of ability to see the evidence would indicate that not all of us have evolved and some not at all. But that too is part of the evolution theory isn't it?

You say evolution is a theory. As a comic I saw a while ago said, after stating that line of yours, "Thank God gravity is a law!". You will observe the irony in him saying those words won't you.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by boogieman on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:29pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:44pm:

boogieman wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 7:53am:

That's what I said mate. I just included the relevant information so others might be able to Google it and see the facts.

You want to argue about who was an ignorant peasant and who wasn't? What on earth is your point with that. You have no idea what level of knowledge any of the writers of any of the documents had. In their time they were neither ignorant nor peasants. Or do you have CV's for each of them, including Constantine's "experts"?

First you'd need to be able to define what "peasant" meant in Jesus's era wouldn't you. You can't even do that. And "ignorant peasant" Ignorant of what? They may have been scholars of some things but not others. Does that imply ignorance? The rubbish that people claim about things they don't know! Really. Careful, bruised ego here.

Prove otherwise instead of such aggressive, sweeping statements.

The point I would have thought was that the Bible is a fake, a story and who gives a poo who wrote it and what they were?

Is your ego that shattered you have to fight about who is an ignorant peasant and who isn't? I feel pity for you in that case. Get a grip.

Maybe you'd like to discuss the Bible with me given you are such an expert on who wrote it.

Let's test you out shall we? Here's a few starters which you won't answer or be able to. How embarrassing.

In Genesis where are the words that first tell you it's a fake?

In Genesis where are the words that prove God was NOT a perfect creator?

Was Satan real?

What did Jesus's time alone in the desert tell us?

There you go. 4 simple ones to cut your teeth on. If you want to throw around how much you know it should be simple to answer these little questions.

Just ignore them as you don't know do you? You're just another know it all bully who demands attention.

You wanted to argue, you have an argument that you won't win. You will just look foolish if you try to compete. Up to you.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:27pm

boogieman wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:29pm:

[

That's what I said mate. I just included the relevant information so others might be able to Google it and see the facts.

You want to argue about who was an ignorant peasant and who wasn't? What on earth is your point with that. You have no idea what level of knowledge any of the writers of any of the documents had. In their time they were neither ignorant nor peasants. Or do you have CV's for each of them, including Constantine's "experts"?

They were both ignorant and peasants !!

The people who wrote the bible believed in burning witches at the stake, murdering homosexuals, stoning women to death for adultery or being raped by other men. There are also descriptions of animal sacrifice, mass murder, mass rape, infanticide, plundering whole villages etc. You name it, anything that is abhorrent is written in that silly old book :(

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:31pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:27pm:

boogieman wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:29pm:

Not to mention, a parent that drowns their children is evil.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:46pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

More to my arguement, we don't know who or what god is. More what actually. If we find what, we can then work on who ;p.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:07pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:46pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

More to my arguement, we don't know who or what god is. More what actually. If we find what, we can then work on who ;p.

if god is purely imaginary then there is NO scientific test to prove its existence.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:13pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:07pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:46pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

More to my arguement, we don't know who or what god is. More what actually. If we find what, we can then work on who ;p.

if god is purely imaginary then there is NO scientific test to prove its existence.

I don't beleive god is imaginary. What is god is another question. Humans have to try and understand everything. In this case, perhaps god is simply a process.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:19pm

boogieman wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:29pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:44pm:

boogieman wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 7:53am:

The problem is, boogie and nails, that the bible has been rewritten, several times at least, over the centuries...most notably the King James version...But possibly before that, due to poor lighting, bad translations, barely litterate scribes etc...

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:25pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

My God is bigger than their god.

That's all, i can say.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:26pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:07pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:46pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

More to my arguement, we don't know who or what god is. More what actually. If we find what, we can then work on who ;p.

if god is purely imaginary then there is NO scientific test to prove its existence.

That is correct.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:30pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

My God is bigger than their god.

That's all, i can say.

Not if the others are pantheists ;D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:32pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:13pm:

I don't beleive god is imaginary. What is god is another question. Humans have to try and understand everything. In this case, perhaps god is simply a process.

then to which god are you referring to because there are at least 2500 different gods that people believe in ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:33pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:26pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 3:07pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:46pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:39pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 2:10pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

to have an theory, first you have to understand what something is.
that is why the only theory on god is, what exactly is god. No one can agree.

they know all about their God when it suits them and plead ignorance when it doesn't suit them ;)

You mean their version of god. My point, is no one seem to agree who or what god is.

that's right. Here is a list of Gods that christians deny ;)

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

More to my arguement, we don't know who or what god is. More what actually. If we find what, we can then work on who ;p.

if god is purely imaginary then there is NO scientific test to prove its existence.

That is correct.

so then you agree that god is purely imaginary !!

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:35pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 7:26am:

That's just the viewpoint you've chosen to adopt Helian .. and that's fine. Many however choose to differ.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:05am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:35pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 7:26am:

That's just the viewpoint you've chosen to adopt Helian .. and that's fine. Many however choose to differ.

Yes, it's certainly my viewpoint (although its interesting you make this statement in a diminutive context - being yourself a Christian n'all)...

While I'm sure many (if not most) Christians would (or should at least in principle) agree with my 'viewpoint', others seem content to parrot forged / interpolated / mistranslated / redacted Biblical text as 'truth'.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:55am

Do your assumptions give you much comfort, Helian?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:09pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:55am:

Do your assumptions give you much comfort, Helian?

Either it_is_the_light has possessed you or.... ;D

Does your reference to 'assumptions' refer to my belief that (perhaps) most Christians would agree in principle with my viewpoint?

If so, then I will amplify my response... My assumption was intended as a sign of my respect towards believing Christians that they were in the main not moronic parrots mindlessly regurgitating flawed dogma... But I accept my assumption here could be wrong... Maybe they are.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:16pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:55am:

Do your assumptions give you much comfort, Helian?

You often feel the need to resort to this type of "response" when you sense you're losing the argument.

You needlessly bring in other posters into your reply .. in some vague attempt to denigrate the poster who has cornered you.

Perhaps you ought to try a different tact with me ... particularly in view of what happend to you last Saturday night in this very topic.

Speaking of which I trust you have significantly recovered now and you've given yourself permission to get some sleep/rest. You were getting a tad too obsessive there at one stage Helian .. given the many hours you sacrificed for this topic alone .. and I was rather concerned for your health.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:22pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

There you go again .. bringing other posters into your "reply" in some vague attempt to denigrate the poster who has cornered you.

It all smacks of insecurity and immaturity if you ask me.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:29pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:22pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? ;D

There you go again .. bringing other posters into your "reply" in some vague attempt to denigrate the poster who has cornered you.

It all smacks of insecurity and immaturity if you ask me.

And focus on a one-line frivolous comment making it the point to your 'objections' indicates to me that you are the more pernicious kind of Christian parrot... Avoiding the argument due to an abject lack of knowledge about what you are talking and feigning 'outrage' at the incidental...

BTW Sappho also accepts the existence of forgeries and later interpolations into Biblical text... I notice you do not quote her on those points.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:33pm

Prove that Jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:43pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:55am:

Do your assumptions give you much comfort, Helian?

Goodness gracious me .. after reading back (you may recall I've been away since last Sunday afternoon on business) .. it seems you haven't had much sleep at all Helian.

Perhaps it's good in a way that this particular topic is keeping you awake and preventing you from getting much sleep Helian. You're struggling to come to terms with it all .. obviously.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:46pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:43pm:

This issue can be resolved very quickly. Just pray for Jesus to appear in front of us then we know that Jesus is real and not imaginary ;)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:54pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:43pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 12:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:55am:

Do your assumptions give you much comfort, Helian?

Yes, I'm a prolific writer (mostly not on forums!)...

On the subject of religion, I'm particularly intrigued by Christians (of your ilk) who appear unable to come to terms with how Biblical text has been (often deceptively) manipulated by redaction, interpolation, misinterpretation and mistranslation over 20 centuries.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 1:01pm

You're "prolific" now eh lmao ? Nahh Helian .. you're just obsessed and obviously in denial about it too.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 1:08pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

You're "prolific" now eh lmao ? Nahh Helian .. you're just obsessed and obviously in denial about it too.

No, prolific is the more correct term for those who know me...

As for denial, I will readily accept propositions that are counter to my own where the other party is capable of sound and reasoned argument... So far, when it comes to religious / theological debate, you have not demonstrated the faculties which are the sine qua non for delivering sound and reasoned argument.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 1:45pm

Prove that Jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 2:09pm

Nail,
Jesus has appeared to many people including Longweekend.

It was however, after Longweekend ate a bag of magic mushrooms. ;D

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 2:12pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 2:09pm:

Nail,
Jesus has appeared to many people including Longweekend.

It was however, after Longweekend ate a bag of magic mushrooms. ;D

once i asked badweekend to pray for Jesus to appear in front of me and everyone else on this forum but I'm still waiting :( Maybe jesus has retired from duty ;) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 3:16pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

You're "prolific" now eh lmao ? Nahh Helian .. you're just obsessed and obviously in denial about it too.

No, prolific is the more correct term ..

So in short .. I was right (again).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 3:18pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 2:12pm:

once i asked badweekend to pray for Jesus to appear in front of me and everyone else on this forum but I'm still waiting :( Maybe jesus has retired from duty ;) LOL

Why don't you pray yourself? You're the one with the need/request.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Imperium II on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 3:32pm

helian why are you bothering with lisa

i would have thought everybody would have seen how transparent she was a very long time ago

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by thelastnail on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 6:10pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 2:12pm:

once i asked badweekend to pray for Jesus to appear in front of me and everyone else on this forum but I'm still waiting :( Maybe jesus has retired from duty ;) LOL

Why don't you pray yourself? You're the one with the need/request.

but I'm not a believer but you are so it should work for you. Let us know when you get some results :) LOL

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 7:17pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 3:18pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 2:12pm:

once i asked badweekend to pray for Jesus to appear in front of me and everyone else on this forum but I'm still waiting :( Maybe jesus has retired from duty ;) LOL

Why don't you pray yourself? You're the one with the need/request.

but I'm not a believer but you are so it should work for you. Let us know when you get some results :) LOL

See .. again it is YOU who has the need. How about YOU pray for God to give YOU the power to get over yourself and finally believe in HIM??

Give it a go .. it won't kill you. This 1st step may change your life in a wonderful way though.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:04pm

barnaby joe wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 3:32pm:

helian why are you bothering with lisa

i would have thought everybody would have seen how transparent she was a very long time ago

Yeah, I know... But I'm intrigued by the mechanics of blind faith... Such as the lengths people will go to protect their sense of (self-)righteousness (particularly when it comes to blind faith in religion) even to the point of displaying the characteristics of being (almost literally) blind stupid.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:09pm

To think .. I was about to post more or less the same thing regarding you Helian.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:12pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:09pm:

To think .. I was about to post more or less the same thing regarding you Helian.

So, John 8 1:11... Your opinion? Would you agree with Sappho ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm

For goodness sakes Helian .. I asked YOU to read that portion of the Holy Bible last Saturday night. I note that you never bothered to read it either (not until I made a fool of you that is).

Now .. seven days on and here we are again .. only now you are quoting the same citation back to me in some vague manner.

Sheesh .. is this going to be yet another rerun of last Saturday night?

I know you must enjoy staying up all night with me but in all honesty I find you infuriatingly and predictably boring as well as ignorant. And that tends to be a turn off for me.

If you wish to debate me tonight .. please .. have the decency to pretend to be intelligent.

I'm feeling tired as it is .. and chances are you will put me to sleep rather quickly if you keep posting your incessant ignorant driven and last minute desperate out of context googled nonsense.

I'm merely giving you a friendly warning .. given you attempted the above stunts last week and they backfired rather quickly.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:29pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

For goodness sakes Helian .. I asked YOU to read that portion of the Holy Bible last Saturday night. I note that you never bothered to read it either (not until I made a fool of you that is).

So, you're not willing to debate the contentious issue of John 8 1:11 then?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Deborahmac09 on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

For goodness sakes Helian .. I asked YOU to read that portion of the Holy Bible last Saturday night. I note that you never bothered to read it either (not until I made a fool of you that is).

So, you're not willing to debate the contentious issue of John 8 1:11 then?

and that issue is ?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:36pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

So, you're not willing to debate the contentious issue of John 8 1:11 then?

CONTENTIOUS ISSUE??? Oh .. you mean you've been sitting there all week trying to figure out something which you've suddenly deemed contentious for us to explore/discuss tonight?

Fair enough Helian .. so what's your "contention" for tonight? Just lie down on the couch .. relax and tell me all about it.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:36pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

For goodness sakes Helian .. I asked YOU to read that portion of the Holy Bible last Saturday night. I note that you never bothered to read it either (not until I made a fool of you that is).

So, you're not willing to debate the contentious issue of John 8 1:11 then?

and that issue is ?

It is an interpolation. Added to John centuries after it is almost universally agreed the Gospel of John was written.

It's quite well known (as an interpolation) and Sappho located a source of its history last week

Quote:

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you personally think about biblical canon.

Let's start with that.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

I quoted Sappho's sourcing of it.

I have known of the text's spurious origins for quite some time as it is one of the most famous of likely interpolations. It is by far not the only example of interpolation, mistranslation, misinterpretation and redaction... But it is one of the most famous.

Other famous ones include (for example) the mistranslation / misinterpretation of 'young woman' as opposed to 'virgin' (regarding the status of Mary's conception of Jesus).

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

So .. you're now basically telling me that you're into conspiracy theories which emerge from time to time (about anything and everything). Only this time .. the conspiracy theory concerns biblical canon.

Great << sighs >>

Have you anything else for me Helian?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:57pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

So .. you're now basically telling me that you're into conspiracy theories which emerge from time to time (about anything and everything). Only this time it concerns biblical canon.

Great .. sighs.

Why would you dismiss it as a conspiracy theory?

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:57pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

So .. you're now basically telling me that you're into conspiracy theories which emerge from time to time (about anything and everything). Only this time it concerns biblical canon.

Great .. sighs.

Why would you dismiss it as a conspiracy theory?

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Helian .. from time to time you will hear provocative and sensational claims made against biblical canon.

You will also find that these claims are made by those trying to cash in on the moment (and they usually do this by marketing themselves via a film, a book, or some doctoral thesis).

It gets tiresome (and predictable) after a while.

Oh and as regards this portion of your post:

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Could you tell me .. what has caused you to conclude this?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of authenticity of all Biblical scripture with an emphasis on the originality of the four gospels (most recently - as I have stated earlier - Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus). However, these days its easier to use electronic sources of information such as :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery#Textual_history

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Lisa on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:43pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Ok .. so you've listed Eisenman as an authority regarding the New Testament. Let's work with that for a moment.

You do realise that Eisenman produced that book based on his own assumption that there MUST be a conspiracy?

Also .. you ought to know that Eisenman has never had access to the Dead Sea Scrolls, because he lacked training in interpreting paleographic documents.

As regards wiki .. well lol :)

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:02pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:43pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

I have Eisenman's book in front of me and he refers to texts from translations of the Dead Sea scrolls over 100 times throughout his 1000 page 'James the Brother of Jesus'.

As for wiki... Follow the sources cited (as you may have done when beginning your search for information about Eisenman)

BTW Even Paul in Acts records the deadly animosity between himself and James.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of [rejecting the] authenticity of all Biblical scripture....

Moslems also make the same claim about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture.

Whereas the reasons of atheists, for rejecting the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture may differ, you sit in the same camp with moslems.

Which is OK [by me].

But i say, 'Let the buyer beware.'

Being cynical, i say that both moslems and atheists make those claims about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture - because dismissing the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture serves their purposes [of promoting a conflicting worldview, to the one which OT & NT Biblical scripture proposes].

Matthew 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[and Matthew 13:12]

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of [rejecting the] authenticity of all Biblical scripture....

That's a very spurious claim not worthy of you, Yadda.

I could say that your implacable hostility to Muslims inhibits your rationality.

There are already a myriad of worldviews where neither Christianity nor Islam play any part at all.

Would you say the same of a Chinese Zen Buddhist who happened to inquire into the origins of Christianity?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:30pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Being cynical, i say that both moslems and atheists make those claims about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture - because dismissing the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture serves their purposes [of promoting a conflicting worldview, to the one which OT & NT Biblical scripture proposes].

That's a very spurious claim not worthy of you, Yadda.

I could say that your implacable hostility to Muslims inhibits your rationality.

Yes, you could say that.

But in reply i could state that;
My hostility towards what good moslems choose to embrace, is based in reason, and comes from an understanding of what ISLAM promotes in the world, as human 'virtue'.
i.e.
ISLAM promotes the 'virtue' of the 'righteous' enslavement and murder of human beings, who choose to reject ISLAM's violent protestations, of being a virtuous philosophy which all of humanity MUST be forced to embrace.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

There are already a myriad of worldviews where neither Christianity nor Islam play any part at all.

Would you say the same of a Chinese Zen Buddhist who happened to inquire into the origins of Christianity?

No.

I would say, "Enquire away."

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:41pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

That's a very spurious claim not worthy of you, Yadda.

I could say that your implacable hostility to Muslims inhibits your rationality.

Then your understanding of Islam and a humanist atheist sensibility are diametrically opposed to each other. The fact that Muslims may or may not question the veracity of the NT and that Atheists may or may not do the same is merely incidental and not in any way necessarily linked or for the same reasons.

As I said... Your post is not (or should not) be worthy of you.

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

No.

I would say, "Enquire away."

An example of the flaw in your logic.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:05am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:41pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

That's a very spurious claim not worthy of you, Yadda.

I could say that your implacable hostility to Muslims inhibits your rationality.

Then your understanding of Islam and a humanist atheist sensibility are diametrically opposed to each other.

The fact that Muslims may or may not question the veracity of the NT and that Atheists may or may not do the same is merely incidental and not in any way necessarily linked or for the same reasons.

FACTS;

1/
Moslems object to the worldview of Christians [belief in a non-moslem God], and commonly persecute and murder Christians for that reason.

2/
'Humanists' [atheistic political regimes] object to the worldview of Christians [belief in God], and [have] commonly persecuted and murdered Christians for that reason.

China, U.S.S.R., Communist East European regimes, Cambodia.

Moslems and humanist atheists have murdered many, many, Christians.

And essentially, moslems and humanist atheists murdered Christians, for the very same reason.

i.e.
Because the Christians didn't believe what the moslems and humanist atheists believed.

helian,

Denying reality, is not worthy of you.

Dictionary;
humanism = = a rationalistic outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:35am

Yadda wrote on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:05am:

Yadda, you're sounding more like a rabid Muslim daily...

Not surprising really, opposite extremes stand at the extremities of an arc... Side by side.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:50am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:35am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:05am:

Yadda, you're sounding more like a rabid Muslim daily...

Not surprising really, opposite extremes stand at the extremities of an arc... Side by side.

helian,

"An example of the flaw in your logic."

A good, 'rabid' moslem would feel obligated to kill me, as he would view my existence, my life, is an insult to ISLAM, and an insult to ISLAM's god, Allah.

I do not want [or have any desire] to kill moslems.
....i merely want to separate myself from them, and from their 'justified' and 'righteous' homicidal tendencies.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 1:14am

Yadda wrote on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:50am:

I do not want [or have any desire] to kill moslems.
....i merely want to separate myself from them, and from their 'justified' and 'righteous' homicidal tendencies.

Or so you'd have us believe...

Just what would you do in defence of your.... religion?

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:09am

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Yadda
Do you realise many atheists oppose communism?

Christian morality did include killing heretics did you forget this fact?

Do you know the Chinese have made it illegal for someone under 18 to attend mosques and Islam is forbidden for those who are under 18?

Religion has never been compatible with science just look at the persecution of galileo etc.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:25am

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:09am:

Religion has never been compatible with science just look at the persecution of galileo etc.

Was nice of John Paul II to finally undo the mindless damage the Catholic Church did to itself and restore Galileo's reputation though, eh!! So it took 350 years... What's a few centuries in the grand scheme of things? ;D

Quote:

On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and issued a declaration acknowledging the errors committed by the Catholic Church tribunal that judged the scientific positions of Galileo Galilei, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.

We can only guess at the number of brilliant minds over those 3 centuries who were discouraged from applying their minds to science due to the mindless vindictiveness meted out by Church Princes on those who dared question the validity of their patently obvious religious garbage.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:25am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 1:14am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:50am:

A good, 'rabid' moslem would feel obligated to kill me, as he would view my existence, my life, is an insult to ISLAM, and an insult to ISLAM's god, Allah.

I do not want [or have any desire] to kill moslems.
....i merely want to separate myself from them, and from their 'justified' and 'righteous' homicidal tendencies.

Or so you'd have us believe...

Just what would you do in defence of your.... religion?

I don't have to fight to defend my God.

My God can defend himself, against any man.

My God is not a powerless, pipsqueak of a little God, who has to subcontract out, to assassins.

In the following Hadith, is described, how Mohammad himself secures the political assassination of an enemy of Allah, the powerless, hurt, God.....

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?"....."
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

helian,

Moslems.

Why won't you condemn those persons who choose to embrace ISLAM, and those persons who choose to give their allegiance to a clearly murderous and wicked philosophy ?

Who is a moslem ???

A moslem is a person who declares;

"I am a moslem. Allah is my God, and Mohammed is his prophet."

Who is a moslem ???

A moslem, is a person who chooses to embrace a philosophy, ISLAM, which tells moslems that it is 'lawful' for moslems, to lie to, to plunder and to rob, to rape, to enslave, and to kill those, who do not believe, as they believe.

"And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."
Koran 33:27

helian,

Do you consider yourself to be a morally sound person ?

What would you be prepared to sacrifice, in promoting your own 'principles' in the world ?

Your integrity ?

e.g.
Do you choose to 'stand behind' moslems, and their moslem 'rights' in our Australian society ?

Do you choose to stand behind persons who believe that their FULL [moslem] rights include the 'right' to oppress, enslave and murder other human beings, because those other human beings do not believe what they believe ?

And do you feel comfortable, at the same time, to try to apply a malicious slur against someone, who openly says that we have the right to scrutinise and, if worthy, to judge that the moslem philosophy [the vile and murderous philosophy which moslems choose to embrace] is abhorrent ?

Dictionary;
abhorrent = = inspiring disgust and loathing.

Just what would you do in defence of your.... religion?

helian,

Why are you are trying to 'draw me out', and seeking to get me to equate my own worldview, with the worldview of oppressors and murderers ?

helian,

People like you disgust me.

You refuse to condemn evil and wickedness in our midst.

You must have a heart the size of a rat turd.

You can only find the courage to condemn my 'intolerance', because i call for a judgement, by our society, against those who choose to embrace a clearly evil and wicked philosophy.

You refuse to condemn those, who choose to embrace ISLAM.

And you choose stand behind moslems, and you stand behind what their philosophy promotes in the world.

You stand behind moslems who embrace a philosophy which teaches that it is 'lawful' for them to intimidate, oppress, enslave and murder, other human beings.

Isaiah 59:14
And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Verge on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:43am

The basic principle of Religion is that it is a collection of traditions, which are designed to guide the social development of a particular group of people within the respective society. The most significant aspect of religion is that it symbolizes the ultimate hope that when someone dies, the universe will provide a spiritual accommodation for their soul.

Once upon a time we were convinced the earth was flat and man couldnt fly. Look at us now.

One can not take statements made over 2000 years ago as absolute because there wasnt the technology avaliable then to test them.

Its for this reason why christanity itself has evolved over the last 2000 years itself, and it has worked in many circles to evolve with changing perspectives, techologies and cultures.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:45am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:25am:

We can only guess at the number of brilliant minds over those 3 centuries who were discouraged from applying their minds to science due to the mindless vindictiveness meted out

by Church Princes

on those who dared question the validity of their patently obvious religious garbage.

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:09am:

I did not forget that fact.

And those 'Christians' today, are condemned by history.

Yes ?

Q.
And why does history condemn those persons ?

A.
Because they are revealed [by our examination of history] to be oppressors, using religion, using Christianity, to secure their own political authority.

Jesus clearly condemned such machinations....

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Jesus said...
"...thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."
Revelation 2:6
Revelation 2:15

Nicolaitans???

'Nicolaitan', refers to those who [Nico] 'rule over' or 'conquer', and [the laity] 'the people'.

Jesus in Revelation, and, in the Gospels, said that he hated those hypocrites, who use the authority of 'religion' [a false, worldly 'spirituality'], to rule over men.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Verge on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 10:11am

Yadda wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:45am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:25am:

We can only guess at the number of brilliant minds over those 3 centuries who were discouraged from applying their minds to science due to the mindless vindictiveness meted out

by Church Princes

on those who dared question the validity of their patently obvious religious garbage.

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:09am:

Great response Yadda.

Many seem to forget that there are those who have hidden behind religion for the purposes of seeking power.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Yadda on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 10:15am

Verge wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 10:11am:

Great response Yadda.

Many seem to forget that there are those who have hidden behind religion for the purposes of seeking power.

Thank you Verge, for the acknowledgement .

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:46pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:25am:

I don't have to fight to defend my God.

My God can defend himself, against any man.

My God is not a powerless, pipsqueak of a little God, who has to subcontract out, to assassins.

Ah, no 'he' doesn't. What happens is those demented by blind faith do the killing in 'his' name.

Yadda wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:25am:

helian,

People like you disgust me.

You refuse to condemn evil and wickedness in our midst.

You must have a heart the size of a rat turd.

Yadda, the most vile people you will ever meet are scum like yourself who see virtue in burning the village in order to save it.

You are a 'Muslim', you're just too blind stupid to know it.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by mozzaok on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:54pm

If the OP's question had been can religion and sanity be compatible, Yadda's ravings would have made a very strong case for the negative.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by Soren on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:11pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:25am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:09am:

Religion has never been compatible with science just look at the persecution of galileo etc.

The Athenians killed Socerates for a lot less.

ANyway, universities started in Christiendom and that's where they have always flourished. The Reformation was a great boost to them and to science as well as free thought.

Title: Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Post by helian on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:15pm

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:11pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:25am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:09am:

Religion has never been compatible with science just look at the persecution of galileo etc.

The Renaissance began in Florence, patronised by a 'corrupted' Papacy pursuing something beyond the constraints of its religious office.