Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?

helian said....


NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 8:32pm:

I doubt Jesus was in on any deception and likely never considered himself the Messiah. If he did, then he [Jesus] failed in fulfilling his mission as a Jewish Messiah and he would have known that himself. The Jewish Messiah had a military role who, through god's favour, would save the Jews from their enemies... Not change sides and work for enemies of Judaism. The 'spiritual' Messiah was entirely a Pauline idea and Jesus didn't live to determine his Pauline legacy.

helian,

Of course i'm sure that you are aware that Jesus role as Jewish Messiah, that he, Jesus, should appear as an expected military / political figure, is contradicted [supposedly, by Jesus himself] in the NT.

"....And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
....Concerning Jesus of Nazareth,....
....we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel:...
....Then he [Jesus] said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Jesus] expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself....."
Luke 24:13-31



But lets explore the apparent contradictory aspects of the nature and role of the Jewish Messiah.
What was the traditional [expected] function of the Jewish Messiah ?
Wasn't the Messiahs' traditional redemptive function to,
1/ cleanse [and judge] his own people, and to,
2/ then destroy their [and God's] enemies ?

But it is clear that there was a distinct difference....between the 'vision' which Jesus presented to the Jewish nation, and the expectation which the Jewish people/nation had [and still have!] of their Messiah.
The Jewish people/nation had an expectation, that the Jewish Messiah would appear as a powerful [redeeming] military / political figure.
But the NT man Jesus came as a spiritual healer, and he personally presented his purpose, as being, to call both the Jewish nation, and Jewish individuals, to spiritual repentance.

Luke 5:32
I came....to call....sinners to repentance.

Matthew 15:24
.....I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And hadn't the [national] redemptive process [promised by their God] always been portrayed [in their scripture] as being, a two part process ?
First and foremost, the need for the atonement [ceremonial 'cleansing'] of the 'holy' people/nation ???
And then [subsequent to their repentance and atonement, 'cleansing'], their redemption [forgiveness] by their God ?

But what Jesus encountered, among the political / religious leaders of the Jewish nation, was a deep seated rejection of his 'vision' of national healing, through repentance.





Think about the history of Jewish people;
Hadn't the ancient Hebrew/Judaic religious culture always been steeped in a [at that time] centuries old understanding, of a national and individual need [as a holy people, as servants of their God], for an atonement for sin ???
Which had always been fulfilled 'in type', within the performance of Judaic religious ceremonies involving animal sacrifice ?
Where the 'guilt' of the people, was placed upon the [innocent] animal being sacrificed ?
A role which it could be argued, Jesus did fulfil.
Jesus died, as an innocent man, executed by the Roman authority, on behalf of his guilty, and 'unrepentant' accusers, the political elite of his day.

And is the self-sacrifice 'thing' of Jesus, so 'weird', as many would claim ???

Don't we see the act of self-sacrifice commonly practised in men, and also in nature [among animals], to protect [to 'redeem'] something loved ???



+++

Isaiah 51:5
My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.

Jeremiah 8:5
Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
6  I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
7  Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I agree with Helian. The New Testament is a Paulinian construct, and since the Council of Nicea, "Christians" identified as Paulinians: worshipers of a pagan-style "god" known as Jesus Christ.

Once, believe it or not, Christians were a much broader church. And the gospels served a very political purpose. You don't see the Gospel of Thomas in the New Testament.

The whole Messiah thing is a red herring. Jesus was a member of the Essenes, a Messianic cult. During the Roman occupation, these groups became powerful and competed for the centre of Jewish politics. There are still many groups within Judaism that have very competing ideas. Some believe in heaven and hell. Some believe in reincarnation. Some don't believe in an afterlife at all. There are fundamentalists and mystics and political Jews. Among these, there are Zionists and anti-Zionists, and competing forms of Zionism.

Israel is country with 22 daily newspapers and less than half the population of Australia. It is a nation of completely different voices. The Jews could never agree on a messiah, and the Paulines were only one cult out of many.

I don't think Jesus saw himself as a messiah - in fact, he actively discouraged this. The messiah thing was tacked on afterwards by Paul. It was Paul who shaped the Christian church - perhaps more than Jesus.

After all, for many Christians, the teachings of Jesus are almost irrelevant. The point of Christianity is to worship Jesus as God. Say a prayer, get baptised, take Jesus into your heart, and everything else comes.

This was Paul's idea, not Jesus'.

No, he was not the messiah, he was justa naughty boy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA

Crucify Him! Crucify Him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkbqzWVHZI&feature=related

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:01am:

I agree with Helian. The New Testament is a Paulinian construct, and since the Council of Nicea, "Christians" identified as Paulinians: worshipers of a pagan-style "god" known as Jesus Christ. Once, believe it or not, Christians were a much broader church. And the gospels served a very political purpose. You don't see the Gospel of Thomas in the New Testament. The whole Messiah thing is a red herring. Jesus was a member of the Essenes, a Messianic cult. During the Roman occupation, these groups became powerful and competed for the centre of Jewish politics. There are still many groups within Judaism that have very competing ideas. Some believe in heaven and hell. Some believe in reincarnation. Some don't believe in an afterlife at all. There are fundamentalists and mystics and political Jews. Among these, there are Zionists and anti-Zionists, and competing forms of Zionism. Israel is country with 22 daily newspapers and less than half the population of Australia. It is a nation of completely different voices. The Jews could never agree on a messiah, and the Paulines were only one cult out of many. I don't think Jesus saw himself as a messiah - in fact, he actively discouraged this. The messiah thing was tacked on afterwards by Paul. It was Paul who shaped the Christian church - perhaps more than Jesus. After all, for many Christians, the teachings of Jesus are almost irrelevant. The point of Christianity is to worship Jesus as God. Say a prayer, get baptised, take Jesus into your heart, and everything else comes. This was Paul's idea, not Jesus'.

Jesus discouraged this, because he knew that he [an innocent man] must be judged, condemned, and killed by the chief priests and scribes...

Luke 9:18
And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
19  They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
20  He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21  And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
22  Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.




But the Gospel account states that Jesus did acknowledge that he was the Jewish Messiah, AND, divine...

Mark 14:61
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62  And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:24
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25  Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not:




John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE&feature=related

But where does he say that he's the messiah?

Yes, I and the Father are one, I am the Christ, the alpha and omega et al.

But what if Jesus meant we're ALL this - and more?

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:36am:

Crucify Him! Crucify Him!

And the blood of the atonement sacrifice was sprinkled upon the people...

Exodus 24:6
And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8  And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.



Jesus, was the atonement sacrifice.


Matthew 27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:57am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 17th, 2011 at 11:36am: Crucify Him! Crucify Him! And the blood of the atonement sacrifice was sprinkled upon the people... Exodus 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8  And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. Jesus, was the atonement sacrifice. Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Crikey, what is it with you religious fundamentalcases and your blood lust!?

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:57am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 17th, 2011 at 11:36am: Crucify Him! Crucify Him! And the blood of the atonement sacrifice was sprinkled upon the people... Exodus 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8  And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. Jesus, was the atonement sacrifice. Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Of course the Bible will "prove" the story it was edited to tell.

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the Pauline messiah myth ISN'T wrong. But without the Bible, how can you ever verify this?

Yes, intuition, divine revelation, all that. But this never happens to Buddhists, or Muslims, or Jews. Just Christians. Why?

Because they've been taught the Bible.

Just as there are many rooms in my Father's house, there are many gospels NOT in the Bible.

See the Nag Hamadi texts.

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:57am:

Jesus, was the atonement sacrifice.

....not the scapegoat.







"Like as a woman with child...."
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231830268/0#0

Quote:

"Dictionary, scapegoat = = 1 a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings or mistakes of others. 2 (in the Bible) a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16). ".....On the day of atonement, two goats without blemish were taken by the priest, upon which lots were cast, one for the Lord, and the other for the scapegoat. The one upon which the Lord's lot fell, was then slain, and his blood carried into the sanctuary to make an atonement for the children of Israel. After which the sins of the people were confessed upon the head of the other, or scapegoat. And the scapegoat was set free, into the wilderness." In the levitical atonement sacrifice, an innocent [substitute] was sacrificed, as atonement for the sins of the people. Dictionary, atonement = = 1 reparation for a wrong or injury. 2 (the Atonement) Christian Theology the reconciliation of God and mankind through the death of Jesus Christ. In exchange for their sacrifice offering [symbolising their acceptance of their guilt], the guilty [of the children of Israel] were 'set free', but were [still, symbolically] separated from their God."

Grey wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:27am:

No, he was not the messiah, he was justa naughty boy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA

Darn it Grey....you beat me to it....

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 8:58am:

Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ? helian said.... NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 8:32pm: I doubt Jesus was in on any deception and likely never considered himself the Messiah. If he did, then he [Jesus] failed in fulfilling his mission as a Jewish Messiah and he would have known that himself. The Jewish Messiah had a military role who, through god's favour, would save the Jews from their enemies... Not change sides and work for enemies of Judaism. The 'spiritual' Messiah was entirely a Pauline idea and Jesus didn't live to determine his Pauline legacy. helian, Of course i'm sure that you are aware that Jesus role as Jewish Messiah, that he, Jesus, should appear as an expected military / political figure, is contradicted [supposedly, by Jesus himself] in the NT.

Yadda, the minute you quote the NT regarding what Jesus said or claimed, you are quoting Pauline propaganda. You must understand this as not history, but one side of a religious 'war' raging between Messianic Judaism and Paul's idea of a form of Judaism that would be palatable to the more 'easy-going' (religiously speaking) non-Jews.

The Jewish Messiah is a role in the Jewish religious psychodrama concerned with the deliverance of the Jewish people from their enemies. Anything else is a Jewish heresy, plain and simple.

Paul clearly deceived James of the Jerusalem Council and invented his own version of Jesus' legacy. Paul used cunning rhetoric, lies and distortion of Jewish tradition to achieve these ends and was unapologetic about it, even to the point of appealing to Rome, as a Roman citizen, to save his own skin from the veritable charges of traitorous blasphemy that James levelled against him... And James was right. Paul wheedled his way into the hierarchy (probably due to his privileged birth), he deceived the Council and arrogated to himself a position of authority over James that he did not deserve.

No matter what Paul subsequently did (right or wrong) no one can deny that he used his considerable intellect, high birth and charisma to found 'Christianity' (as it became known) based on lies and deception.

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:36am:

Crucify Him! Crucify Him!

Welease Wodger.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 12:21am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 17th, 2011 at 11:36am: Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Welease Wodger.

Who is Roger ?

And why should he be released ???      ;)

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 12:06pm:

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the Pauline messiah myth ISN'T wrong. But without the Bible, how can you ever verify this?

But by using the term 'myth' you'd be suggesting that the story does not necessarily require adherence to any historical truth and need not appeal to the rational mind but to the emotional 'heart'.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:15am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 17th, 2011 at 12:06pm: Mind you, this doesn't mean that the Pauline messiah myth ISN'T wrong. But without the Bible, how can you ever verify this? But by using the term 'myth' you'd be suggesting that the story does not necessarily require adherence to any historical truth and need not appeal to the rational mind but to the emotional 'heart'.

By myth I mean a lineage of pagan sacrificial gods like Osiris, Dionysis, Attis and Mithras (myth?) - the thesis of Freke and Gandy in the Jesus Mysteries - a very good read.

Myths are stories where truth, the obsession of Christianity, lies within the text itself - not in a historical person or series of events. Within paganism, the "truth" of the object of prayer/devotion is not so important. Your devotion is.

So yes, Helian, you're spot on.

As theologians like CS lewis have argued, Christianity can't be proven rationally or historically. And why would you want to?

This only becomes the point if you're basing your professed superiority over other faiths on the "truth" of your own. It becomes a legal question - a question that is not based in faith or the teachings of Jesus, but narrow fundamentalist dogma.

Conservative Christian fundamentalists lament how modern spirituality has become a supermarket, how people flick from Buddhism to Scientology to Christianity, etc, and blend them all into a post-modern soup. The problem with this is that the "truth" gets lost - that hard truths get avoided, that people will just do whatever they think sounds nice.

Maybe. But this is how Paul created Christianity, and it's how knowledge has travelled around the globe since the beginning of language, travel and trade.

Christian fundamentalists have no answers to the question of truth. All they can ever really say is that they feel Jesus in their hearts - that's the truth.

I have no problem with that.

Had Jesus been the Jewish messiah, there wouldn't have been a Christian religion. The messiah concept is most closely copied by the Muslim notion of the mahdi. In my view, the faith in Jesus is more like that in a redeemer of souls and hearts, rather than in the coming of a liberator of the body (politic), a sword wielding warrior. There is also such a notion, I know, but it is always deferred to future generation. For the present time (at any time in hisrtory) Jesus is  regarded by his devotees as a lord of their hearts and minds (which in turn ought to rule their bodies but that's another discussion).

It's totally beyond despute now that Jesus Christ had never existed as in the biblical depiction.

Soren wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 10:59am:

Had Jesus been the Jewish messiah, there wouldn't have been a Christian religion. The messiah concept is most closely copied by the Muslim notion of the mahdi. In my view, the faith in Jesus is more like that in a redeemer of souls and hearts, rather than in the coming of a liberator of the body (politic), a sword wielding warrior. There is also such a notion, I know, but it is always deferred to future generation. For the present time (at any time in hisrtory) Jesus is  regarded by his devotees as a lord of their hearts and minds (which in turn ought to rule their bodies but that's another discussion).

This also assumes, that the only reality, is the one which we all see, hear, and feel, with our senses [and also now, the reality which we can measure, with our machines].

All wisdom [in this apparent universe], does not reside with man.

Far from it.    ;D



There is a lot, which we do not see, and it is real,  ......more real, than this world.

But, where is my proof ???

Eh ?

LOL

Quote:

This also assumes, that the only reality, is the one which we all see, hear, and feel, with our senses [and also now, the reality which we can measure, with our machines]. All wisdom [in this apparent universe], does not reside with man. Far from it.    Grin There is a lot, which we do not see, and it is real,  ......more real, than this world. But, where is my proof ??? Eh ? LOL

How about answering the harder questions and provide some factual information that JESUS CHRIST was in fact an actual human being.

You cannot because is not true.

State factual infiormation puhlease.

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 1:25pm:

It's totally beyond despute now that Jesus Christ had never existed as in the biblical depiction. Nobody has thus far proved me wrong that the biblical depiction of Jesus Christ was merely a figment of the imagination. Just a story which somewhat aligns with real observations is all it is. So try try again. Prove me right yet again. I'm telling you the very truth now, as I have in the past again and again. Jesus Christ never existed in real life...get it? I very much hope that you get get it

Beyond dispute? Gee, you haven't been watching the Christian channel lately, have you?

It's one thing to say we don't have proof of Jesus. It's another to say that this means he never existed.

It goes beyond Christianity too. There's an interesting grave in present-day Iran, showing a man with crucifix wounds and telling a story much like Jesus'. Here, they believe that Jesus travelled to Persia after he came back from the grave, married and settled down.

True? Who knows?

I have researched extensively. I know.

Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false.

Proof pluhlease  ::)

Then he went to Japan.  ;)

http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm


Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

I have researched extensively. I know. Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false. Proof pluhlease  ::)

Kenneth Humphreys has zilch credentials as a historian.

How 'bout some serious proof then?

No use glossing over the bs.

Any well meaning person must be well sick of the glossed over bs.

So where is the logic residing here?
Where is the proof that JESUS CHRIST existed as told within the bible?

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

I have researched extensively. I know. Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false. Proof pluhlease  ::)

I know that [all being well] a Subway Seafood Sensation exists in my near future,
....all being well, i will encounter this reality, this Saturday morning.

Can i prove to you that this will happen ???

Nup.






Amadd,

As far as, 'Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed', and you know this,   ....good luck to you.

I am happy for you to believe, whatever you want to believe......
.....so long as it does not involve cutting my head off, or, cutting the head off people who are dear to me.

Yadda wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:58pm:

Amadd wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 2:34pm: I have researched extensively. I know. Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false. Proof pluhlease  ::) I know that [all being well] a Subway Seafood Sensation exists in my near future, ....all being well, i will encounter this reality, this Saturday morning.

Not if you have read the book of Leviticus, my friend. Shellfish is harum.

Karnal wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:23pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 2:58pm: Amadd wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 2:34pm: I have researched extensively. I know. Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false. Proof pluhlease  ::) I know that [all being well] a Subway Seafood Sensation exists in my near future, ....all being well, i will encounter this reality, this Saturday morning. Not if you have read the book of Leviticus, my friend. Shellfish is harum.

K,

I know that Allah will reject me, because i am not a moslem.

Will my God [the God of Israel] reject me, too, if i am not Jewish ?

Yadda wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:33pm:

K, I know that Allah will reject me, because i am not a moslem. Will my God [the God of Israel] reject me, too, if i am not Jewish ?

No, my friend, He will welcome you!

Karnal wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:36pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 18th, 2011 at 3:33pm: K, I know that Allah will reject me, because i am not a moslem. Will my God [the God of Israel] reject me, too, if i am not Jewish ? No, my friend, He will welcome you!

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

It's good that I'm a vegetarian then. Mind you, I do like a drink.

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 1:25pm:

It's totally beyond despute now that Jesus Christ had never existed as in the biblical depiction.

Well, not so totally in dispute as you'd think. If the historical Jesus did not exist, it would have been easy to simply invent the story of his birth in Bethlehem by claiming his family already lived there, rather than co-opting the Census story to have him recorded as having been born there.

Clearly there were enough witnesses at the time who could claim (or at least by second hand) that he was born somewhere in Galilee (if not in Nazareth). After all, there is no dispute that James (his brother) existed and there is reason to believe (albeit via Acts) that James acknowledged he existed.

t's good that I'm a vegetarian then. Mind you, I do like a drink.

__________

forgiven

namaste

Yadda wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

This also assumes, that the only reality, is the one which we all see, hear, and feel, with our senses [and also now, the reality which we can measure, with our machines].

In fact we humans have built machines and technology which can detect and 'sense', beyond our own human senses.

e.g.
Visible light [i.e. light which is visible to humans], is a small part of the whole light spectrum.




Take the example of radio waves [a part of the wider 'light' spectrum];

500 years ago, radio waves effectively did not exist [within the human experience].

Why so?

Because we humans can not see 'invisible' radio waves.

But today, a human being of average intelligence, would not dream of claiming that radio waves do not exist.

With expanding human knowledge, what would have once been considered 'magic', becomes commonplace knowledge among men.

Today, modern man has technology, which [mostly] we all blandly take for granted.

An example of;

"Familiarity, breeds contempt." ???



Doesn't my argument clearly demonstrate, that it is very likely, almost certain, that there are likely to be further, un-discovered 'realities' beyond our ken, beyond the [present] knowledge of sceptics ?

And wouldn't it have been the sceptics of this present age, who, in another age, would have been among the most prolific of 'witch burners', 500 years ago ?

Those who today claim, that what is not commonly known [that which is not the common experience], is 'dangerous' heretical rantings ?

In fact we humans have built machines and technology which can detect and 'sense', beyond our own human senses.

e.g.
Visible light [i.e. light which is visible to humans], is a small part of the whole light spectrum.

____________

beloved one

it is the case in truth and concrete science that yes

you do reside and extrapolate individual interpretation eminating from

the 3rd order of dimension..an illusionary state of being

a very dense frequency yes

however

you are multidimensional and exist on many levels

and of course are eternal

having an experience in 3rd density cut off from your all knowing

wisdom and higher self

do any deny this fact?

im interested with forgiveness

namaste

Good to see Yadda and the Light on the same page here.

Forgiven.

Light, do you ever actually READ other's posts before responding and forgiving?

blessings and i welcome my presence within your awareness

at this moment at your point in the 3rd dimensional matrix grid

i am with thee beloved

fear not

simply look there within

i am that i am there dear one

it is the LIGHT

namaste

-:)

I didn't think so.

master karnal id

i do detect some confusionary reaction from you

beloved one..

this is quite ok and or cool

forgiven divine and sacred HEART

namaste

some may comfort fear

this is so

i let that be and do not judge this reaction

or judge those whom do seek to judge

with forgiveness and blessings

all are equal yes

do any deny this fact?

im interested with forgiveness

namaste

Karnal wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:50am:

Light, do you ever actually READ other's posts before responding and forgiving?

K,

I think that you have met your alter ego, in the id,    it_is_the_light.

Err,   ....frien.

harmonics

frequency and

individual ViBrAtIoN interpretations yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiSCBXbHAg

Cymatic experiment

namaste

Yadda wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:50am: Light, do you ever actually READ other's posts before responding and forgiving? K, I think that you have met your alter ego, in the id,    it_is_the_light. Err,   ....frien.

K,

This is the universes' harmonic frequency returning to yourself, your interpretations.

Yes ?

namaste

Yadda wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:50am: Light, do you ever actually READ other's posts before responding and forgiving? K, I think that you have met your alter ego, in the id,    it_is_the_light. Err,   ....frien.

forgiven for ignorance and confusions

beloved brother soul

I hope this comforts you

namaste

Yadda wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:17pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 1:08pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:50am: Light, do you ever actually READ other's posts before responding and forgiving? K, I think that you have met your alter ego, in the id,    it_is_the_light. Err,   ....frien. K, This is the universes' harmonic frequency returning to yourself, your interpretations. Yes ? namaste

You may well be right. The universe does have a sense of humour, after all.

Forgiven.

Karnal wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 1:22pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 1:17pm: Yadda wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 1:08pm: Karnal wrote on Aug 19th, 2011 at 10:50am: Light, do you ever actually READ other's posts before responding and forgiving? K, I think that you have met your alter ego, in the id,    it_is_the_light. Err,   ....frien. K, This is the universes' harmonic frequency returning to yourself, your interpretations. Yes ? namaste You may well be right. The universe does have a sense of humour, after all. Forgiven.

Absolutely, in my experience.       ;D

K,

This is the universes' harmonic frequency returning to yourself, your interpretations.

Yes ?

namaste

__________

i am that i am a humble servant within you all yes

it is the LIGHT

a mirror to question your reaction when negative

and validate wisdom courages and strengths and positive thought

with compassion

and forgiveness

namaste

-:)

Thank you for your wisdom, courage, strength and positive thought, Light.

You are a most humble brother being, and definately within us all. Did you read the original post about messiahs?

i do not dwell with dogma or doctrine

i would suggest look within your HEART

and see the messiah cascading there in LOVE ViBrAtIoN

through the vessel of the LIGHT

it is there within you now

the 7 seals the chakras

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8dHxgtM2HQ


Chakra Activation

beloved ones

with so very much LOVE

it is so

and so it is

so be it

namaste

-:)

True. But how does this relate to the Jewish Messiah?

i speak upon the messiah within

i do not polarise the topic as the title of thread may suggest

this is illusion and 3rd dimensional confusion

and disinformationalistical hypothosisms

forgiven

namaste

Ah. Do you think this is what Jesus was talking about - the messiah within?

the king drome resides within

it is so and so it is so be it

namaste

-:)

Yes, but the Kingdom is a particularly Qabalistic reference, don't you think? As above, so below. Thus, so below, as above.

Just as it is vice versa is versa vice versa is vice versa versa is versa vice versa vice versa vice versa, etc, etc, etc.

i am that i am

and so it is