Obviously, this question can't properly be gauged until the results of the Census are detailed, but even then, I wouldn't take much from that, because of dumb Xenophobic viral emails telling people to state their religion as Christianity because of some fear of an influx of Muslims to Australia.

However, everywhere I look (T.V Shows like Can of Worms and Q&A, various forums, comments, tweets etc) and through people I know personally, a resounding mocking of Religion has become more and more apparent. This coupled with outrage at the actions of Rev. Nile in NSW sends a clear message.

The biggest tell of all, we have an Atheist Prime Minister, although she has proven she is all too willing to suck up to the Fundamentalist Conservative vote when it comes to the gay marriage issue.

So, when it comes down to it, is Religion on a decline into Irrelevence in Australia? I say Irrelevence because it is extremely naive to suggest it will disappear entirely.

GoddyofOz wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 1:09am:

Obviously, this question can't properly be gauged until the results of the Census are detailed, but even then, I wouldn't take much from that, because of dumb Xenophobic viral emails telling people to state their religion as Christianity because of some fear of an influx of Muslims to Australia. However, everywhere I look (T.V Shows like Can of Worms and Q&A, various forums, comments, tweets etc) and through people I know personally, a resounding mocking of Religion has become more and more apparent. This coupled with outrage at the actions of Rev. Nile in NSW sends a clear message. The biggest tell of all, we have an Atheist Prime Minister, although she has proven she is all too willing to suck up to the Fundamentalist Conservative vote when it comes to the gay marriage issue. So, when it comes down to it, is Religion on a decline into Irrelevence in Australia? I say Irrelevence because it is extremely naive to suggest it will disappear entirely.

We can only pray...

GoddyofOz wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 1:09am:

Obviously, this question can't properly be gauged until the results of the Census are detailed, but even then, I wouldn't take much from that, because of dumb Xenophobic viral emails telling people to state their religion as Christianity because of some fear of an influx of Muslims to Australia. However, everywhere I look (T.V Shows like Can of Worms and Q&A, various forums, comments, tweets etc) and through people I know personally, a resounding mocking of Religion has become more and more apparent. This coupled with outrage at the actions of Rev. Nile in NSW sends a clear message. The biggest tell of all, we have an Atheist Prime Minister, although she has proven she is all too willing to suck up to the Fundamentalist Conservative vote when it comes to the gay marriage issue. So, when it comes down to it, is Religion on a decline into Irrelevence in Australia? I say Irrelevence because it is extremely naive to suggest it will disappear entirely.

Religion doomed to irrelevance ???

Sure is!



Goddy,

Here is an interesting Christian article for you....

It suggests that when a culture chooses to reject God, it will always happily embrace homosexuality [i.e. self gratification].


Pornography
"....a man can go from being thankful, and from failing to acknowledge the nature of his Creator as revealed in the creation, into homosexuality!

It is pretty startling isn't it?, that you can go from being unthankful to being "gay"?

....Therefore God gives them up to their impure hearts.  This is where we come to the issue of turning homosexual.  How can that actually happen?  How could it happen that we as a nation, as a people, could go from being unthankful to our Creator to being homosexual?  And is it happening around us today?  It must be!  "Gay Liberation" is in the newspaper every day.  More and more people are "coming out front" and saying that they have been what are called "closet queens" all their lives.  They have been secretly homosexual and now they finally realize, in their delusion, that it was really O.K. and so they want to practice it everywhere and with everybody.  How does it come about?  This is the really startling thing that God says, in effect:  "Being unthankful will turn you 'queer'." "
http://ldolphin.org/wise/0491.html


i.e.
When a culture becomes obsessed with self gratification, it will always choose to EMBRACE homosexuality, even coming to accept homosexuality as a 'norm'.

Yadda wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 1:56am:

GoddyofOz wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 1:09am: Obviously, this question can't properly be gauged until the results of the Census are detailed, but even then, I wouldn't take much from that, because of dumb Xenophobic viral emails telling people to state their religion as Christianity because of some fear of an influx of Muslims to Australia. However, everywhere I look (T.V Shows like Can of Worms and Q&A, various forums, comments, tweets etc) and through people I know personally, a resounding mocking of Religion has become more and more apparent. This coupled with outrage at the actions of Rev. Nile in NSW sends a clear message. The biggest tell of all, we have an Atheist Prime Minister, although she has proven she is all too willing to suck up to the Fundamentalist Conservative vote when it comes to the gay marriage issue. So, when it comes down to it, is Religion on a decline into Irrelevence in Australia? I say Irrelevence because it is extremely naive to suggest it will disappear entirely. Religion doomed to irrelevance ??? Sure is! Goddy, Here is an interesting Christian article for you.... It suggests that when a culture chooses to reject God, it will always happily embrace homosexuality [i.e. self gratification]. Pornography "....a man can go from being thankful, and from failing to acknowledge the nature of his Creator as revealed in the creation, into homosexuality! It is pretty startling isn't it?, that you can go from being unthankful to being "gay"? ....Therefore God gives them up to their impure hearts.  This is where we come to the issue of turning homosexual.  How can that actually happen?  How could it happen that we as a nation, as a people, could go from being unthankful to our Creator to being homosexual?  And is it happening around us today?  It must be!  "Gay Liberation" is in the newspaper every day.  More and more people are "coming out front" and saying that they have been what are called "closet queens" all their lives.  They have been secretly homosexual and now they finally realize, in their delusion, that it was really O.K. and so they want to practice it everywhere and with everybody.  How does it come about?  This is the really startling thing that God says, in effect:  "Being unthankful will turn you 'queer'." " http://ldolphin.org/wise/0491.html i.e. When a culture becomes obsessed with self gratification, it will always choose to EMBRACE homosexuality, even coming to accept homosexuality as a 'norm'.

Self Gratification?

Why do you think God or Allah wants people to worship and love him so badly? Self Gratification.

Not while Yadda lives!

There will always be religion , but the theistic religion of the bible will have to evolve or die. We, as humans have come too far in the world of science to believe the bible story. We are so better educated than we were 2000 years ago, so it stands to reason that the bible is totally irrelevant to today's people. Take away the bible scriptures and what are you left with?

Maybe theist religions will follow a more grounded position like Buddhism or Hinduism where people are accountable to themselves instead of some self serving god that needs continuous praise and glory.

People should live by their conscience, if you don't have one it can be troublesome though.

Not a chance Goddy, Australians love easy answers too much. If we were atheist we might have to do the right thing because we want to not because we will get punished for eternity when we die.

If any of you actually went to church you'd see the silliness in the OP. The church is dogin very well thank you and not just oldies... the pentecostal churches particulary have a very strong and growing membership with  mostly young people. Thats why the census had no classification for 'pentecostal' while uniting and anglican which are dying retain theirs. LOL  

GoddyofOz wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 1:09am:

Obviously, this question can't properly be gauged until the results of the Census are detailed, but even then, I wouldn't take much from that, because of dumb Xenophobic viral emails telling people to state their religion as Christianity because of some fear of an influx of Muslims to Australia. However, everywhere I look (T.V Shows like Can of Worms and Q&A, various forums, comments, tweets etc) and through people I know personally, a resounding mocking of Religion has become more and more apparent. This coupled with outrage at the actions of Rev. Nile in NSW sends a clear message. The biggest tell of all, we have an Atheist Prime Minister, although she has proven she is all too willing to suck up to the Fundamentalist Conservative vote when it comes to the gay marriage issue. So, when it comes down to it, is Religion on a decline into Irrelevence in Australia? I say Irrelevence because it is extremely naive to suggest it will disappear entirely.

I have noticed the trend towards openly mocking religion. I first came across it in my first office job and it seems to be getting more prevalent, but that may be just down to the internet giving these people a voice. Most of the people involved seem to be bitter about having it imposed on them in school (or worse) and feel the need to make a stand against it. It can look pretty silly making a stand against something so benign.

Being largely reactionary I don't think it will be a permanent change to our society. These people can get far more obnoxious, are not afraid to throw around deeply flawed arguments and are not afraid to try to use the law to impose their views on others, so it won't be long till there is a public reaction against them. Either that or people will just get over it and get on with their lives. I would hate for public debate here to mirror the 'culture wars' in the US.

Longweekend,

Quote:

The church is doing very well thank you

The Catholic Church especially - they have $billions in gold bullion
stored in Switzerland & vast property estates.

Their sales product is everlasting life & also burning forever in hellfire & damnation
if you don't believe them ( & give money to their cause ) -
both of which which can never be disproven.

Can't people see that it's scam?

Quote:

LongWeekend - The church is dogin very well thank you and not just oldies...

An unfortunate choice of phrase there... ;D ;D

Grey wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

Quote: LongWeekend - The church is dogin very well thank you and not just oldies... An unfortunate choice of phrase there... ;D ;D

Also - he can't even spell doing.
I have to correct his spelling when I quote him
yet he claims to have a university degree - what a loser!

I think as Christianity in its various sects becomes more and more of a minority religion, and it's no longer forced down kids' throats in school, it will start to gain more respect.

I know other non-religious people on here will disagree totally with what I say, but I really don't look on it as a bad thing. Last Sunday I saw a small congregation heading to a local Catholic
Church. Many of them seemed to be immigrants. The priests were standing outside the church in their very colorful regalia welcoming them as they arrived.  It struck me as being nice to see. It's a legacy and a tradition from the past, and really it gives people a chance to reflect on their personal ethical performance over the past week, which is something that the rest of us generally don't do. It provides a kind of feedback for the individuals on things they need to improve on.  

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 3:57pm:

I think as Christianity in its various sects becomes more and more of a minority religion, and it's no longer forced down kids' throats in school, it will start to gain more respect. I know other non-religious people on here will disagree totally with what I say, but I really don't look on it as a bad thing. Last Sunday I saw a small congregation heading to a local Catholic Church. Many of them seemed to be immigrants. The priests were standing outside the church in their very colorful regalia welcoming them as they arrived.  It struck me as being nice to see. It's a legacy and a tradition from the past, and really it gives people a chance to reflect on their personal ethical performance over the past week, which is something that the rest of us generally don't do. It provides a kind of feedback for the individuals on things they need to improve on.

I fully agree. While I don't believe in God (I never have) and I can't get my head around the idea of believing in such a thing, I think that religion serves a purpose for a lot of people.

I don't have a problem with the bulk of the churches. I think they do a pretty good job in relation to the work they do for the community - yes, even the Catholic church which a lot of people seem to have the most problems with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia

.. religion in Australia remains dominated demographically by Christianity, with 64% of the population claiming at least nominal adherence to the Christian faith as of 2007 ... 18.7% of Australians declared "no-religion" on the 2006 Census with a further 11.2% failing to answer the question. The remaining population is a diverse group that includes fast-growing Islamic and Buddhist communities.

Hmmm ..

Life_goes_on wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:06pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 3:57pm: I think as Christianity in its various sects becomes more and more of a minority religion, and it's no longer forced down kids' throats in school, it will start to gain more respect. I know other non-religious people on here will disagree totally with what I say, but I really don't look on it as a bad thing. Last Sunday I saw a small congregation heading to a local Catholic Church. Many of them seemed to be immigrants. The priests were standing outside the church in their very colorful regalia welcoming them as they arrived.  It struck me as being nice to see. It's a legacy and a tradition from the past, and really it gives people a chance to reflect on their personal ethical performance over the past week, which is something that the rest of us generally don't do. It provides a kind of feedback for the individuals on things they need to improve on.   I fully agree. While I don't believe in God (I never have) and I can't get my head around the idea of believing in such a thing, I think that religion serves a purpose for a lot of people. I don't have a problem with the bulk of the churches. I think they do a pretty good job in relation to the work they do for the community - yes, even the Catholic church which a lot of people seem to have the most problems with.

I've got no problem with the above perspectives either. It's only annoying when the church tries to flex its wings within the wider community and politics.

Religion gives some people a reason to get up in the morning and that can only be a good thing.

I don't see a younger demographic at the traditional churches, they are predominantly over 50 or even 60, maybe the younger ones are flocking to the modern day 'new age' churches like Hillsong. I can verify this observance from personal attendance. The congregations are bordering on ancient.

Religion doesn't bother me, only the religious people like yadda, who claims his God is the right God and all other Gods are false. Everyone to their own, but that doesn't give you the right to put a dampener on the beliefs of others. Only his ilk will believe his bible stories, no one else.

yadda, would you be game to step away from your theistic safety net and seriously study other beliefs?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:23pm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia .. religion in Australia remains dominated demographically by Christianity, with 64% of the population claiming at least nominal adherence to the Christian faith as of 2007 ... 18.7% of Australians declared "no-religion" on the 2006 Census with a further 11.2% failing to answer the question. The remaining population is a diverse group that includes fast-growing Islamic and Buddhist communities. Hmmm ..

The key word there is nominal.  The subject of religion came up at a barbecue once, and between cooking the snags, the host asked of his wife "Sherl - What are we again? - you know - religion?"  There must be a heap of those 'nominals' out there, and I just wonder if it's a true reflection of demographics to count them as being religious in any way.  It's up to individuals to express themselves in whatever way they choose.  

Of course of that 64%,  a fair proportion of them think that another fair proportion are heretics and are going to hell, so to try to lump them together as some kind of homogenous body is just a tad misleading.

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves.

It's been like that for some time.

I know I would not want it any other way.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way.

That same freedom should also be used to expose all religious teachings for the fraud that they are instead of religious institutions maintaining that they are above criticism.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way.

Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia.

Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:51pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. That same freedom should also be used to expose all religious teachings for the fraud that they are instead of religious institutions maintaining that they are above criticism.

I have no issue with that view. Religious organisations (like ANY organisation) ought to be accountable/subject to the laws of our country IF they are involved in any illegal activities.

Or .. are you asserting something a little different in your post Last Nail?

Religion is becoming increasingly relevant due to the influx of muslims whos religious beliefs taint every aspect of their lives and who wish the broader society to accommodate those beliefs, and the small but increasing numbers of Christian fundamentalists. Then we have the new age gaia worshippers, pagans, wiccans etc. who play with ancient beliefs because they think its cool.

For a rational agnostic like me this represents a serious threat to our society. Australia has got along just fine as one of the most secular nations on earth however I see a new Inquisition on the horizon.

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

As usual .. well stated Mr Muso :)

Grey wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

Quote: LongWeekend - The church is dogin very well thank you and not just oldies... An unfortunate choice of phrase there... ;D ;D

as 'king of the typos' I do occasionally come up with some rippers...

Belgarion wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:55pm:

Religion is becoming increasingly relevant due to the influx of muslims whos religious beliefs taint every aspect of their lives and who wish the broader society to accommodate those beliefs, and the small but increasing numbers of Christian fundamentalists. Then we have the new age gaia worshippers, pagans, wiccans etc. who play with ancient beliefs because they think its cool. For a rational agnostic like me this represents a serious threat to our society. Australia has got along just fine as one of the most secular nations on earth however I see a new Inquisition on the horizon.

Well with people like Abu & Longweekend on this forum an
inquisition would not be far away - if you let them have their way.

---

<< bows her head in prayer >>

Dear God

Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen

PS Please expedite this request.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:20pm:

<< bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request.

it does get old, I admit. The reason that it continues is that neither of these dimwtis have half the integrity or intelligence necessary to move on. It doesnt seem to occur to them that I am not Catholic either - despite being repeatedly told so. What really ensures it continues  is that both these boneheads insist on occupying positions on topics that are well beyond ludicrous. You have experienced the breathtaking stupidity of toenail (and pansi) on the subject of real estate so you know what I mean. These three are little different from PRevailing but without the mental illness excuse he has. You cannot get a credible or reasonable response from any of them on any topic. 'debating' with them on any topic is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:20pm:

<< bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request.

Hi Lisa,
I hope God answers your prayers.  :)

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:28pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. it does get old, I admit. The reason that it continues is that neither of these dimwtis have half the integrity or intelligence necessary to move on. It doesnt seem to occur to them that I am not Catholic either - despite being repeatedly told so. What really ensures it continues  is that both these boneheads insist on occupying positions on topics that are well beyond ludicrous. You have experienced the breathtaking stupidity of toenail (and pansi) on the subject of real estate so you know what I mean. These three are little different from PRevailing but without the mental illness excuse he has. You cannot get a credible or reasonable response from any of them on any topic. 'debating' with them on any topic is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Or it may be that God is using these very same people to teach YOU the invaluable lessons of patience and forbearance Mr Longweekend.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. That same freedom should also be used to expose all religious teachings for the fraud that they are instead of religious institutions maintaining that they are above criticism. I have no issue with that view. Religious organisations (like ANY organisation) ought to be accountable/subject to the laws of our country IF they are involved in any illegal activities. Or .. are you asserting something a little different in your post Last Nail?

I just don't like how followers think that their irrational religious beliefs are above criticism just because it is personal to them.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:20pm:

<< bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request.

The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. Hi Lisa, I hope God answers your prayers.  :)

Now that comment has made my day :)

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:32pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL

Excuse me .. how do you know that God isn't already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail?

Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs?

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:28pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. it does get old, I admit. The reason that it continues is that neither of these dimwtis have half the integrity or intelligence necessary to move on. It doesnt seem to occur to them that I am not Catholic either - despite being repeatedly told so. What really ensures it continues  is that both these boneheads insist on occupying positions on topics that are well beyond ludicrous. You have experienced the breathtaking stupidity of toenail (and pansi) on the subject of real estate so you know what I mean. These three are little different from PRevailing but without the mental illness excuse he has. You cannot get a credible or reasonable response from any of them on any topic. 'debating' with them on any topic is like shooting fish in a barrel.

so when are you going to move on and stop replying to these threads ??

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:34pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:28pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. it does get old, I admit. The reason that it continues is that neither of these dimwtis have half the integrity or intelligence necessary to move on. It doesnt seem to occur to them that I am not Catholic either - despite being repeatedly told so. What really ensures it continues  is that both these boneheads insist on occupying positions on topics that are well beyond ludicrous. You have experienced the breathtaking stupidity of toenail (and pansi) on the subject of real estate so you know what I mean. These three are little different from PRevailing but without the mental illness excuse he has. You cannot get a credible or reasonable response from any of them on any topic. 'debating' with them on any topic is like shooting fish in a barrel. so when are you going to move on and stop replying to these threads ??

I know I can't really answer for and on behalf of Longweekend .. but in all fairness .. he has the right to reply in any thread of his choosing.

Incidentally .. that same right (and freedom) extends to the rest of us Last Nail.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:30pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:28pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. it does get old, I admit. The reason that it continues is that neither of these dimwtis have half the integrity or intelligence necessary to move on. It doesnt seem to occur to them that I am not Catholic either - despite being repeatedly told so. What really ensures it continues  is that both these boneheads insist on occupying positions on topics that are well beyond ludicrous. You have experienced the breathtaking stupidity of toenail (and pansi) on the subject of real estate so you know what I mean. These three are little different from PRevailing but without the mental illness excuse he has. You cannot get a credible or reasonable response from any of them on any topic. 'debating' with them on any topic is like shooting fish in a barrel. Or it may be that God is using these very same people to teach YOU the invaluable lessons of patience and forbearance Mr Longweekend.

Perhaps true. But Im certainly not learning any facts from these dim bulbs!

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:32pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL

That is because God has given us all FREE WILL, the ability to make our OWN choices.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:34pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs?

For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade

1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
(see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html)

2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world.

3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire.

4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire.

5) God never calls the fire department.

6) Therefore God doesn't exist.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:44pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL That is because God has given us all FREE WILL, the ability to make our OWN choices.

If an all knowing omniscient God knows the future then how do us mere mortals have the power to change it ?? Where is our free will to change a predefined future ??

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:46pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:34pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs? For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade 1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. (see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html) 2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world. 3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 5) God never calls the fire department. 6) Therefore God doesn't exist.

As it so happens .. the Bible canvasses this very same issue (the issue of tempting Jesus to PROVE His power).

Matthew 4

After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.

The devil came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

Jesus answered, “It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

  He will command his angels concerning you,
  and they will lift you up in their hands,
  so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:46pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:34pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs? For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade 1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. (see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html) 2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world. 3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 5) God never calls the fire department. 6) Therefore God doesn't exist.

you need some new material. Your agruments are fallacious as you only look at 0.00000001% of the argument and use that to determine your belief. In your ridiculous argument a God that answered every prayer in the positive bar this one 'wouldnt exist'.

your logic is false and so is your approach. And it will always be so until you actually seek the TRUTH or an ANSWER. for now, all you are doing is defending a position with no interest whatsoever if your beleif is true or not.

God reveals Himself to EVERYONE who genuinely seek Him. It has always been the case and always will be.  When you genuinely seek answers (and miracles) they will be provided. But for now, all you seek is argument and deabting your own position with zero regard for truth.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:52pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:46pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:34pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs? For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade 1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. (see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html) 2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world. 3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 5) God never calls the fire department. 6) Therefore God doesn't exist. As it so happens .. the Bible canvasses this very same issue (the issue of tempting Jesus to PROVE His power). Matthew 4 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The devil came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:   He will command his angels concerning you,   and they will lift you up in their hands,   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’

WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity!

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:52pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:46pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:34pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs? For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade 1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. (see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html) 2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world. 3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 5) God never calls the fire department. 6) Therefore God doesn't exist. As it so happens .. the Bible canvasses this very same issue (the issue of tempting Jesus to PROVE His power). Matthew 4 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The devil came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:   He will command his angels concerning you,   and they will lift you up in their hands,   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’

what test ??

Your morally perfect god never ever calls the fire brigade and allows people to burn to death :(

Longweekend,

Quote:

WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity!

What else are you Longweekend?
It seems like you have Walter Mitty Syndrome.  ;D

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity!

LOL Your morally perfect and all powerful God allows its own creation to burn to death for the sake of a 20 cent phone call :(

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:52pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:46pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:34pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs? For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade 1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. (see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html) 2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world. 3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 5) God never calls the fire department. 6) Therefore God doesn't exist. As it so happens .. the Bible canvasses this very same issue (the issue of tempting Jesus to PROVE His power). Matthew 4 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The devil came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:   He will command his angels concerning you,   and they will lift you up in their hands,   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity!

Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:58pm:

Longweekend, Quote: WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity! What else are you Longweekend? It seems like you have Walter Mitty Syndrome.  ;D

I know to a person of your limited intellegence, education and experience that it might appear unlikely that a person of 50 might have more than one ability. But to the rest of us, we know that most people have expertise in a variety of fields and endeavours. not all of us are as limited as you and toenail.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:01pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:55pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:52pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:46pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:34pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs? For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade 1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. (see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html) 2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world. 3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 5) God never calls the fire department. 6) Therefore God doesn't exist. As it so happens .. the Bible canvasses this very same issue (the issue of tempting Jesus to PROVE His power). Matthew 4 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The devil came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:   He will command his angels concerning you,   and they will lift you up in their hands,   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity! Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf.

very true. it was an excellent response tho. Thanks. It seems that people want proof of His power - not his existance. Perhaps that is why God chooses to speak softly and the only ones that hear are those that are listening.

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:04pm:

very true. it was an excellent response tho. Thanks. It seems that people want proof of His power - not his existance. Perhaps that is why God chooses to speak softly and the only ones that hear are those that are listening.

Proof of either will do ;)

where is it ??

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:03pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:58pm: Longweekend, Quote: WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity! What else are you Longweekend? It seems like you have Walter Mitty Syndrome.  ;D I know to a person of your limited intellegence, education and experience that it might appear unlikely that a person of 50 might have more than one ability. But to the rest of us, we know that most people have expertise in a variety of fields and endeavours. not all of us are as limited as you and toenail.

so what expert will you be tomorrow ?? :D LOL

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:03pm:

I know to a person of your limited intellegence, education and experience that it might appear unlikely that a person of 50 might have more than one ability. But to the rest of us, we know that most people have expertise in a variety of fields and endeavours. not all of us are as limited as you and toenail.

Intelligence - at least I can spell it - what a loser you are Longweekend.  ;D

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:01pm:

Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf.

Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;)

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:04pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:55pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:52pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:46pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:34pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL How do you know that God isnt already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs? For the same reason that god never calls the fire brigade 1) God is defined as being omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. (see the definition at http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/G0172100.html) 2) An omniscient God would know of every house fire in the world. 3) An omnipotent God would be able to call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 4) A morally perfect God would call the fire department when he saw a house fire. 5) God never calls the fire department. 6) Therefore God doesn't exist. As it so happens .. the Bible canvasses this very same issue (the issue of tempting Jesus to PROVE His power). Matthew 4 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The devil came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:   He will command his angels concerning you,   and they will lift you up in their hands,   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ WOW. brilliant response and I am embarrassed that as a Biblical Scholar I didnt jump on that at the first opportunity! Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. very true. it was an excellent response tho. Thanks. It seems that people want proof of His power - not his existance. Perhaps that is why God chooses to speak softly and the only ones that hear are those that are listening.

Many have ears .. but that doesn't necessarily mean they're listening.

Also .. there are too many religious voices out there confusing/devastating genuine people who are wanting to know and understand God.

Religion has a lot to answer for in this regard. I also think it's important that we as Christians come clean about this reality.

Ahh here we are again .. passionately discussing/debating religion.

This can only mean one thing .. IT MUST BE SATURDAY NIGHT EVERYONE lol :)

Where is my friend Mr Helian?? He's usually about :)

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:11pm:

Many have ears .. but that doesn't necessarily mean they're listening. Also .. there are too many religious voices out there confusing/devastating genuine people who are wanting to know and understand God. Religion has a lot to answer for in this regard. I also think it's important that we as Christians come clean about this reality.

Hey Lisa have you ever asked yourself why all Gods are invisible or the ones that are visible are inanimate non living objects ?? Perhaps these gods don't actually exist except in ones imagination ;)

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:15pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:11pm: Many have ears .. but that doesn't necessarily mean they're listening. Also .. there are too many religious voices out there confusing/devastating genuine people who are wanting to know and understand God. Religion has a lot to answer for in this regard. I also think it's important that we as Christians come clean about this reality. Hey Lisa have you ever asked yourself why all Gods are invisible or the ones that are visible are inanimate non living objects ?? Perhaps these gods don't actually exist except in ones imagination ;)

That's wrong Nail,
I worship the Sun God & he is visible every day.  ;D

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 5:34pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 5:20pm: << bows her head in prayer >> Dear God Would you PLEASE end this long running online feud btwn my friends Longweekend and Bobby as well as Last Nail. I know that I'm expecting a miracle here .. but it's ever so tiresome and I hate being caught up in the middle all the time. Amen PS Please expedite this request. The mere fact that God never answers this prayer and others like it is more proof that your god does not exist ;) LOL Excuse me .. how do you know that God isn't already answering this prayer Mr Last Nail? Have you been personally checking all His prayer request logs?

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;)

Last Nail .. a few moments ago .. you essentially claimed to know all God's prayer request logs .. now you are essentially claiming to know all His actions also??

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:17pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:15pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:11pm: Many have ears .. but that doesn't necessarily mean they're listening. Also .. there are too many religious voices out there confusing/devastating genuine people who are wanting to know and understand God. Religion has a lot to answer for in this regard. I also think it's important that we as Christians come clean about this reality. Hey Lisa have you ever asked yourself why all Gods are invisible or the ones that are visible are inanimate non living objects ?? Perhaps these gods don't actually exist except in ones imagination ;) That's wrong Nail, I worship the Sun God & he is visible every day.  ;D

yes but a non living entity ;)

That is an unusual standard to apply.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:17pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:10pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;) last Nail .. a few moments ago .. you essentially claimed to know all God's prayer requests .. now you are essentially claiming to know all His actions also??

yes but Jesus said in the bible that God answers all prayers but obviously Jesus was lying.

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:18pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:17pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:15pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:11pm: Many have ears .. but that doesn't necessarily mean they're listening. Also .. there are too many religious voices out there confusing/devastating genuine people who are wanting to know and understand God. Religion has a lot to answer for in this regard. I also think it's important that we as Christians come clean about this reality. Hey Lisa have you ever asked yourself why all Gods are invisible or the ones that are visible are inanimate non living objects ?? Perhaps these gods don't actually exist except in ones imagination ;) That's wrong Nail, I worship the Sun God & he is visible every day.  ;D yes but a non living entity ;)

To you Nail but to me the Sun God is a living entity who warms the Earth
so that we can live.
He also answers my prayers.

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

I understand what they are trying to say, for example a religion doesnt have the right to rape children for example. But article 9 is so hopelessly compromised that it eliminates the concept of 'a right' and replaces it with 'convenience'. Rights are by definition OFTEN inconvenient and until they are allowed to stand when they are uncomfortable and inconvenient they arent really rights at all.

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:20pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:17pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:10pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;) last Nail .. a few moments ago .. you essentially claimed to know all God's prayer requests .. now you are essentially claiming to know all His actions also?? yes but Jesus said in the bible that God answers all prayers but obviously Jesus was lying.

liek any small immature child you seem to not understand that 'NO' is an answer.

I bet you caused your mother grief with your constant petulant whiny demands

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:20pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:18pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:17pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:15pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:11pm: Many have ears .. but that doesn't necessarily mean they're listening. Also .. there are too many religious voices out there confusing/devastating genuine people who are wanting to know and understand God. Religion has a lot to answer for in this regard. I also think it's important that we as Christians come clean about this reality. Hey Lisa have you ever asked yourself why all Gods are invisible or the ones that are visible are inanimate non living objects ?? Perhaps these gods don't actually exist except in ones imagination ;) That's wrong Nail, I worship the Sun God & he is visible every day.  ;D yes but a non living entity ;) To you Nail but to me the Sun God is a living entity who warms the Earth so that we can live. He also answers my prayers.

As it so happens .. the Holy Bible canvasses people like you Bobby.

Have a read here:

Romans 1:25 and 26

They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator.

That is why God abandoned them.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:20pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:17pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:10pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;) last Nail .. a few moments ago .. you essentially claimed to know all God's prayer requests .. now you are essentially claiming to know all His actions also?? yes but Jesus said in the bible that God answers all prayers but obviously Jesus was lying. liek any small immature child you seem to not understand that 'NO' is an answer. I bet you caused your mother grief with your constant petulant whiny demands

At least Nail grew up.
He found out Father Xmas wasn't true but you still
think he comes down the chimney & give you presents.  ;D

Lisa,

Quote:

As it so happens .. the Holy Bible canvasses people like you Bobby. Have a read here: Romans 1:25 and 26 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. That is why God abandoned them.

Lisa - God abandoned me long ago -
I am destined to burn forever in hellfire & damnation.

Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal.

J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World.

Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:35pm:

Lisa, Quote: As it so happens .. the Holy Bible canvasses people like you Bobby. Have a read here: Romans 1:25 and 26 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. That is why God abandoned them. Lisa - God abandoned me long ago - I am destined to burn forever in hellfire & damnation.

If you truly know the hopelessness of your pathetic situation and destiny .. why don't you try crying out to God for mercy and deliverance?

Or is this just another "joke" for you Bobby? Just remember .. a joke is ALWAYS half true.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:39pm:

Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal.

Or .. it could be that these so called facts of existence also reflect the reality that we are no longer able to control our lives or anything in our world for that matter.

If we all take a good, hard, honest look at ourselves we might also be able to see the truth regarding ourselves. We are truly that hopeless and helpless .. we've done everything we can to destroy ourselves and our planet. We've polluted our air, our water, our land, our morals, our bodies, our minds .. there's really nothing left to damage anymore.

We've "handled" OUR situation well .. haven't we?

And if the consequences of our own actions prove negative/disastrous .. we have the hide to blame God for it.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:40pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:35pm: Lisa, Quote: As it so happens .. the Holy Bible canvasses people like you Bobby. Have a read here: Romans 1:25 and 26 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. That is why God abandoned them. Lisa - God abandoned me long ago - I am destined to burn forever in hellfire & damnation. If you truly know the hopelessness of your pathetic situation and destiny .. why don't you try crying out to God for mercy and deliverance? Or is this just another "joke" for you Bobby? Just remember .. a joke is ALWAYS half true.

Lisa - I just hope God doesn't exist - because if he does
then I'm in a lot of trouble.  ;)

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

no it doesnt. it defines this 'right' WITHIN the framework of restrictions. In doing so it pretty much says that this 'right' can be legislated away. That makes it no longer a right but a priviledge. the freedom of specch right for instance is not a right if you are legally not allowed to comment on a raft of topics or people.

<<And if the consequences of our own actions prove negative/disastrous .. we have the hide to blame God for it.>>
.........................................................................................

As I'm sure they will in time because our resources are not infinite. I wouldn't blame anyone or anything but human greediness.

I don't blame God for anything because there is no God to blame. We are big kids now, we can cop the consequences of our own mistakes.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:39pm:

Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal. J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World. Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus.

why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream?

Sprong is not an idiot longweekend.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:20pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. I understand what they are trying to say, for example a religion doesnt have the right to rape children for example. But article 9 is so hopelessly compromised that it eliminates the concept of 'a right' and replaces it with 'convenience'. Rights are by definition OFTEN inconvenient and until they are allowed to stand when they are uncomfortable and inconvenient they arent really rights at all.

Which is why Europe, despite apparently having freedom of religion, has absurd bans on Muslim turrets, various items of clothing etc. These are hardly necessary.


Quote:

Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

True rights are above law and above democracy. This is not context, this is making rights subject to democracy and law. In other words, if 50% of people want to take your rights away, they will be taken away. How much protection is that? To me it seems like it gives no more protection than a democracy that lacks any such 'convention'. It is a worthless piece of paper.

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:05pm:

Sprong is not an idiot longweekend.

he is hardly mainstream.

Spong is sprung.

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:20pm: freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. I understand what they are trying to say, for example a religion doesnt have the right to rape children for example. But article 9 is so hopelessly compromised that it eliminates the concept of 'a right' and replaces it with 'convenience'. Rights are by definition OFTEN inconvenient and until they are allowed to stand when they are uncomfortable and inconvenient they arent really rights at all. Which is why Europe, despite apparently having freedom of religion, has absurd bans on Muslim turrets, various items of clothing etc. These are hardly necessary. Quote: Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy? True rights are above law and above democracy. This is not context, this is making rights subject to democracy and law. In other words, if 50% of people want to take your rights away, they will be taken away. How much protection is that? To me it seems like it gives no more protection than a democracy that lacks any such 'convention'. It is a worthless piece of paper.

well said. Article 9 was written with Islam in mind. True rights have NO ONE IN MIND. they stand above law and majority opinion. the freedom of speech is the right to express minority opinions - even distasteful and abhorrent ones.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:02pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:39pm: Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal. J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World. Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus. why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream?

Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend,  and you turn against your own kind. I'd hate to sit next to you in the pew.

Why is it that you call anyone you don't agree with an idiot?

You call people who don't vote for your beloved liberal party idiots too.

You call Professor Steven Keen an idiot because he has a different opinion on money matters to you.

I don't agree with heaps of people, it doesn't mean they are idiots.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:32pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:02pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:39pm: Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal. J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World. Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus. why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream? Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend,  and you turn against your own kind. I'd hate to sit next to you in the pew. Why is it that you call anyone you don't agree with an idiot? You call people who don't vote for your beloved liberal party idiots too. You call Professor Steven Keen an idiot because he has a different opinion on money matters to you. I don't agree with heaps of people, it doesn't mean they are idiots.

Sprong doesnt beleive in the Bible ergo he is a fool. And I call Keen a fool because for nearly 5 years now every single predictio he has made has failed. That is not a recommendation to listento him slavishly like you do.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:26pm:

True rights have NO ONE IN MIND. they stand above law and majority opinion. the freedom of speech is the right to express minority opinions - even distasteful and abhorrent ones.

Constitutional rights are not above the law, they are a part of the basis upon which law is founded.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:24pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:05pm: Sprong is not an idiot longweekend. he is hardly mainstream.

and that is in his favour. Just because it is mainstream, does not make it right.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:40pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:32pm: longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:02pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:39pm: Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal. J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World. Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus. why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream? Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend,  and you turn against your own kind. I'd hate to sit next to you in the pew. Why is it that you call anyone you don't agree with an idiot? You call people who don't vote for your beloved liberal party idiots too. You call Professor Steven Keen an idiot because he has a different opinion on money matters to you. I don't agree with heaps of people, it doesn't mean they are idiots. Sprong doesnt beleive in the Bible ergo he is a fool. And I call Keen a fool because for nearly 5 years now every single predictio he has made has failed. That is not a recommendation to listento him slavishly like you do.

He's an idiot because he believes the bible was written by men? that would be most of the world who are idiots.

Keen's not a fool, but you could be for not understanding WHY his predictions  have not come to fruition yet. clue - stimulus packages, another clue QE1 and QE2. Watch his predictions fall nicely into place when the stimulus is finished.

Quote:

Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend,

Actually  by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:40pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:35pm: Lisa, Quote: As it so happens .. the Holy Bible canvasses people like you Bobby. Have a read here: Romans 1:25 and 26 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. That is why God abandoned them. Lisa - God abandoned me long ago - I am destined to burn forever in hellfire & damnation. If you truly know the hopelessness of your pathetic situation and destiny .. why don't you try crying out to God for mercy and deliverance? Or is this just another "joke" for you Bobby? Just remember .. a joke is ALWAYS half true. Lisa - I just hope God doesn't exist - because if he does then I'm in a lot of trouble.  ;)

I can only speak to you as a caring friend Bobby.

What you do with what I tell you .. is entirely up to you.

NB Apologies for the delay in responding to you .. but I had to attend to dinner.

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:56pm:

Quote: Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, Actually  by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either.

No. The very standards, definitions and core values which God has recurringly expounded throughout the Holy Bible preclude Sprong from claiming the title of Christian.

Sprong is in fact a humanist.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:14pm:

Ahh here we are again .. passionately discussing/debating religion. This can only mean one thing .. IT MUST BE SATURDAY NIGHT EVERYONE lol :) Where is my friend Mr Helian?? He's usually about :)

bump for Helian (in case he missed it).

Thought you'd turn up soon lol :P

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:21pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:56pm: Quote: Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, Actually  by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either. No. The very standards, definitions and core values which God has recurringly expounded throughout the Holy Bible preclude Sprong from claiming the title of Christian. Sprong is in fact a humanist.

Impressions differ, especially when we accept that it was written by humans, with human thoughts, human frailties and human superstition. Sprong understands this.

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:34pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 8:21pm: Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:56pm: Quote: Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, Actually  by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either. No. The very standards, definitions and core values which God has recurringly expounded throughout the Holy Bible preclude Sprong from claiming the title of Christian. Sprong is in fact a humanist. Impressions differ, especially when we accept that it was written by humans, with human thoughts, human frailties and human superstition. Sprong understands this.

Sprong ought to understand this .. given he himself has contributed to the continuum of human thought by offering his own impressions which embody his own inherent frailties.

Regrettably .. I very much doubt Sprong himself understands this even though he functions within the boundaries of a humanist framework.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:24pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:05pm: Sprong is not an idiot longweekend. he is hardly mainstream.

I'm actually quite pleased that people are quoting humanist and/or non mainstream voices.

It's about time we took a CLOSER look at what these people have to say.

lol, hate it when it double posts  :-[

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:03pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:40pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:35pm: Lisa, Quote: As it so happens .. the Holy Bible canvasses people like you Bobby. Have a read here: Romans 1:25 and 26 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator. That is why God abandoned them. Lisa - God abandoned me long ago - I am destined to burn forever in hellfire & damnation. If you truly know the hopelessness of your pathetic situation and destiny .. why don't you try crying out to God for mercy and deliverance? Or is this just another "joke" for you Bobby? Just remember .. a joke is ALWAYS half true. Lisa - I just hope God doesn't exist - because if he does then I'm in a lot of trouble.  ;) I can only speak to you as a caring friend Bobby. What you do with what I tell you .. is entirely up to you. NB Apologies for the delay in responding to you .. but I had to attend to dinner.

Never mind - I'm watching the Rugby:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1313254805/15

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:20pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:17pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:10pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;) last Nail .. a few moments ago .. you essentially claimed to know all God's prayer requests .. now you are essentially claiming to know all His actions also?? yes but Jesus said in the bible that God answers all prayers but obviously Jesus was lying. liek any small immature child you seem to not understand that 'NO' is an answer. I bet you caused your mother grief with your constant petulant whiny demands

that's not what the bible says. It says the Jesus answers all prayers. No ifs or buts ;)

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:32pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:02pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:39pm: Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal. J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World. Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus. why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream? Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend,  and you turn against your own kind. I'd hate to sit next to you in the pew. Why is it that you call anyone you don't agree with an idiot? You call people who don't vote for your beloved liberal party idiots too. You call Professor Steven Keen an idiot because he has a different opinion on money matters to you. I don't agree with heaps of people, it doesn't mean they are idiots.

badweekend is the sort of bloke that would put 10 bucks in the offering plate and take back $9.95 in change ;) LOL

Last Nail .. your last post has nothing at all to do with this topic.. and it's nothing more than an attack on another poster.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 9:58pm:

Last Nail .. your last post has nothing at all to do with this topic.. and it's nothing more than an attack on another poster. I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.

in response to his unwarranted attacks on people that don't agree with him.

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 10:03pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 9:58pm: Last Nail .. your last post has nothing at all to do with this topic.. and it's nothing more than an attack on another poster. I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. in response to his unwarranted attacks on people that don't agree with him.

Ahh right .. so we're back to playing tit for tat. Pity.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 10:05pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 10:03pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 9:58pm: Last Nail .. your last post has nothing at all to do with this topic.. and it's nothing more than an attack on another poster. I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. in response to his unwarranted attacks on people that don't agree with him. Ahh right .. so we're back to playing tit for tat. Pity.

badweekend always starts it. just read his posts. Why don't you have a go at him for bagging others or is it a case that he agrees with you ??

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 9:43pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:21pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:20pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:17pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:10pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;) last Nail .. a few moments ago .. you essentially claimed to know all God's prayer requests .. now you are essentially claiming to know all His actions also?? yes but Jesus said in the bible that God answers all prayers but obviously Jesus was lying. liek any small immature child you seem to not understand that 'NO' is an answer. I bet you caused your mother grief with your constant petulant whiny demands that's not what the bible says. It says the Jesus answers all prayers. No ifs or buts ;)

Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails...

I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers....

There's probably half a dozen references on this site that proves the bible is fake. Have a quick squizzy. Only problem with the bible is that somewhere else we are sure to find a verse that completely counteracts these ones.

Remember the one "in his own good time"? there you go, he got out of the answering prayer thing with five little words. He was going to do it, they just died before he got around to it.


Maybe when the bible is taken as a good story book with lots of valuable lessons in it for getting through life, a new Christianity will arise. a bit more believable and down to earth.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

     "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref]

Look at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.

We see the same thing over and over again...

In Matthew 21:21:

     I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."  

http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

The bible is not fake Pansi, just misunderstood. It is the way it is interpreted.  It is not the word of god, it is the word of man. That is where the problem comes in.

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

The bible is not fake Pansi, just misunderstood. It is the way it is interpreted.  It is not the word of god, it is the word of man. That is where the problem comes in.

ok the bible is not fake, it is an actual book. It is declared to be the word of god, but it is the word of many men, all flesh and bone human men.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:30am:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 10:22am: The bible is not fake Pansi, just misunderstood. It is the way it is interpreted.  It is not the word of god, it is the word of man. That is where the problem comes in. ok the bible is not fake, it is an actual book. It is declared to be the word of god, but it is the word of many men, all flesh and bone human men.

Well .. you are both entitled to your opinions.

That doesn't change the fact that the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

Well, you'd have to read the full document rather than just that snippet, but others have explained that there are religious cults which break national laws, and this potentially applies to many mainstream religions such as Islam, and some Christian Sects. The Exclusive Brethren come to mind.

I think we need to have the freedom to practice any religion as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws or impinge on individual rights to chop and change their religion without fear of being threatened with death or being deprived of contact with their loved ones etc.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:42am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 11:30am: Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 10:22am: The bible is not fake Pansi, just misunderstood. It is the way it is interpreted.  It is not the word of god, it is the word of man. That is where the problem comes in. ok the bible is not fake, it is an actual book. It is declared to be the word of god, but it is the word of many men, all flesh and bone human men. Well .. you are both entitled to your opinions. That doesn't change the fact that the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

http://asa.chm.colostate.edu/archive/asa/199610/0151.html

That's a question that even Catholic Theologians continue to debate amongst themselves. Most will argue that it is imperfect because it was written by men. The link is a Vatican Press Release that legitimises Evolution in the eyes of the Catholic Church and thus makes it necessary to make an entirely different interpretation of Genesis as being "ancient fables".

People use the term "Mainstream Christianity".  In fact, Christianity has a number of 'mainstreams'.  Roman Catholicism and the Protestant branch are two of the main ones in Australia. While they have a lot of commonality, they are far from compatible.

muso wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:52am:

freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. Well, you'd have to read the full document rather than just that snippet, but others have explained that there are religious cults which break national laws, and this potentially applies to many mainstream religions such as Islam, and some Christian Sects. The Exclusive Brethren come to mind. I think we need to have the freedom to practice any religion as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws or impinge on individual rights to chop and change their religion without fear of being threatened with death or being deprived of contact with their loved ones etc.

So how does the swiss ban on turrets, or the various bans on 'Muslim' clothing fit into that? The Americans seem to have a much better grasp on religious freedom.


Quote:

as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws

So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights?

muso wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:57am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 11:42am: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 11:30am: Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 10:22am: The bible is not fake Pansi, just misunderstood. It is the way it is interpreted.  It is not the word of god, it is the word of man. That is where the problem comes in. ok the bible is not fake, it is an actual book. It is declared to be the word of god, but it is the word of many men, all flesh and bone human men. Well .. you are both entitled to your opinions. That doesn't change the fact that the Holy Bible is the Word of God. That's a question that even Catholic Theologians continue to debate amongst themselves. Most will argue that it is imperfect because it was written by men.

True .. that still doesn't change the fact that the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

The issue is that these theologians argue from humanist philosophical frameworks. These frameworks function as blinkers.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 10:13pm:

Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails... I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers....

I don't think so


Quote:

In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:      Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

freediver wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:03pm:

So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights?

Surely you can see that if a religion requires to sacrifice a virgin to the Sun God every wednesday, then legality trumps human rights? Please let me know if you don't find that blindingly obvious so I can start to worry about you.

OK, that's an extreme example, but there need to be some secular controls in place for religion.  

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

bump for Muso and Freediver

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:21pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:27pm: freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy? bump for Muso and Freediver

there is nothing to bump. can't you see it's an old book written by primitive and ignorant fools. Why do you place so much importance on this one book ??

Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:28pm:

Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip.

yes but the basis for your arguments is the truth of this one book. It's really sad that people in the 21st century still want to hang on to a piece of obsolete and outdated text which has no value and relevance whatsoever to the present time.

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:32pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:28pm: Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip. yes but the basis for your arguments is the truth of this one book. It's really sad that people in the 21st century still want to hang on to a piece of obsolete and outdated text which has no value and relevance whatsoever to the present time.

Umm .. you obviously haven't yet read back because you still haven't quite realised what we're actually talking about.

Here's a hint: It starts with R and ends with ELIGIOUS FREEDOM.

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:10pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 10:13pm: Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails... I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers.... I don't think so Quote: In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:      Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus..

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:55pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:32pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:28pm: Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip. yes but the basis for your arguments is the truth of this one book. It's really sad that people in the 21st century still want to hang on to a piece of obsolete and outdated text which has no value and relevance whatsoever to the present time. Umm .. you obviously haven't yet read back because you still haven't quite realised what we're actually talking about. Here's a hint: It starts with R and ends with ELIGIOUS FREEDOM.

yes i know what it means. Do you think that it is still ok to  burn witches at the stake just because some old book says so ?? Is this the sort of freedom that you seek ?

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:10pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 10:13pm: Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails... I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers.... I don't think so Quote: In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:      Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus..

But Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect.
When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth. Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer, he is clearly lying.

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:01pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:10pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 10:13pm: Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails... I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers.... I don't think so Quote: In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:      Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus.. But Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect. When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth. Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer, he is clearly lying.

No, Jesus is the Son of God, not God...Just because some sections of Christianity are confused on that point doesn't mean the bible is 'wrong'....

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:11pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:08pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:01pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:10pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 10:13pm: Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails... I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers.... I don't think so Quote: In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:      Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus.. But Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect. When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth. Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer, he is clearly lying. No, Jesus is the Son of God, not God...Just because some sections of Christianity are confused on that point doesn't mean the bible is 'wrong'....

That's just metaphorical speak. Jesus is an incarnation of God.

Was Jesus lying when the bible says the following ??


Quote:

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:      For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. In Matthew 21:21:      I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:      Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:      "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:      Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:      And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. In Mark 9:23:      All things are possible to him who believes. In Luke 1:37:      For with God nothing will be impossible.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:11pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:08pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:01pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:10pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 10:13pm: Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails... I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers.... I don't think so Quote: In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:      Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus.. But Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect. When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth. Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer, he is clearly lying. No, Jesus is the Son of God, not God...Just because some sections of Christianity are confused on that point doesn't mean the bible is 'wrong'....

That's just metaphorical speak. Jesus is an incarnation of God.

Was Jesus lying when the bible says the following ??


Quote:

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:      For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. In Matthew 21:21:      I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:      Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:      "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:      Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:      And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. In Mark 9:23:      All things are possible to him who believes. In Luke 1:37:      For with God nothing will be impossible.

muso wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:16pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:03pm: So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights? Surely you can see that if a religion requires to sacrifice a virgin to the Sun God every wednesday, then legality trumps human rights? Please let me know if you don't find that blindingly obvious so I can start to worry about you. OK, that's an extreme example, but there need to be some secular controls in place for religion.

Not really. The rights of the virgin trump the rights of the religious people. You do not need to invoke the law at all. Otherwise, the law comes first and rights only exist to the extent they fit conveniently within the law, and whatever changes they want to make to the law in the future. There is nothing at all to clarify when the law trumps religious freedom or vice versa - the law always comes first, no matter how arbitrary it is.

Hence my example of bans on turrents and clothes on the basis that they are associated with a religion. The convention provides no way of distinguinshing the human sacrifice example from a ban on telling people about your religion or building a church. That is why it is meaningless.

The Americans have a much better grasp of this.

freediver wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:51pm:

muso wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:16pm: freediver wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:03pm: So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights? Surely you can see that if a religion requires to sacrifice a virgin to the Sun God every wednesday, then legality trumps human rights? Please let me know if you don't find that blindingly obvious so I can start to worry about you. OK, that's an extreme example, but there need to be some secular controls in place for religion.   Not really. The rights of the virgin trump the rights of the religious people. You do not need to invoke the law at all. Otherwise, the law comes first and rights only exist to the extent they fit conveniently within the law, and whatever changes they want to make to the law in the future. There is nothing at all to clarify when the law trumps religious freedom or vice versa - the law always comes first, no matter how arbitrary it is. Hence my example of bans on turrents and clothes on the basis that they are associated with a religion. The convention provides no way of distinguinshing the human sacrifice example from a ban on telling people about your religion or building a church. That is why it is meaningless. The Americans have a much better grasp of this.

I agree that you can circumvent it as it stands. I'd suggest that if there was no provision to do that, then many governments probably wouldn't sign it.

Going back to the virgin sacrifice, do I take it that if the virgin approved,  felt honoured and actually wanted to be sacrificed, you'd allow it to go ahead on the basis of religious freedom? - Or maybe you are of the opinion that if somebody wants to be murdered, they have a right to it?

As far as the European Convention,  it's more than just the convention as it is written.  Laws  are passed  by individual member nations with the intent of the convention in mind, and if they are challenged in court, it happens in accordance with that intent. Generally the legislation itself goes into a lot more depth than the original document.

By the way your original statement "It is legal as long as it's not illegal" tends to be the way things work.  There is nothing banal or stupid about it. That's just how it works.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:43pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:26pm: True rights have NO ONE IN MIND. they stand above law and majority opinion. the freedom of speech is the right to express minority opinions - even distasteful and abhorrent ones. Constitutional rights are not above the law, they are a part of the basis upon which law is founded.

you got it the wrong way around. law is based on the constitution, not the other way around. in a democracy NOTHING supersedes the constitution.

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:44pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:24pm: Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:05pm: Sprong is not an idiot longweekend. he is hardly mainstream. and that is in his favour. Just because it is mainstream, does not make it right.

Actually, usually it does.

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:34pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 8:21pm: Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 7:56pm: Quote: Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, Actually  by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either. No. The very standards, definitions and core values which God has recurringly expounded throughout the Holy Bible preclude Sprong from claiming the title of Christian. Sprong is in fact a humanist. Impressions differ, especially when we accept that it was written by humans, with human thoughts, human frailties and human superstition. Sprong understands this.

His primary assumption is that the Bible was not divinely inspired. Ergo, the rest of his beleif-set is NOT Christian.

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 9:43pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:21pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:20pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:17pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:10pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm: Longweekend .. it matters not if we are Bible Scholars or not .. esp in view of the fact that in times past God has seen fit to use a lowly donkey and even simple fishermen to speak on His behalf. Yet this all powerful god can seemingly do anything except to physically appear in front of people except in the bible of course ;) last Nail .. a few moments ago .. you essentially claimed to know all God's prayer requests .. now you are essentially claiming to know all His actions also?? yes but Jesus said in the bible that God answers all prayers but obviously Jesus was lying. liek any small immature child you seem to not understand that 'NO' is an answer. I bet you caused your mother grief with your constant petulant whiny demands that's not what the bible says. It says the Jesus answers all prayers. No ifs or buts ;)

Lastnail to mummynail.. "Can I have an icecream?"
Mummynail: "NO"
Lastnail: "Why wont you ANSWER ME!!!"

(tantrum ensues)

muso wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:52am:

freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. Well, you'd have to read the full document rather than just that snippet, but others have explained that there are religious cults which break national laws, and this potentially applies to many mainstream religions such as Islam, and some Christian Sects. The Exclusive Brethren come to mind. I think we need to have the freedom to practice any religion as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws or impinge on individual rights to chop and change their religion without fear of being threatened with death or being deprived of contact with their loved ones etc.

This is where the weakness comes in. If a 'right' has to be subject to a set of fallible laws then this 'right' has become much, much weaker.

freediver wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:03pm:

muso wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 11:52am: freediver wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 6:05pm: muso wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:54pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves. It's been like that for some time. I know I would not want it any other way. Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia. Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society" Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary. Well, you'd have to read the full document rather than just that snippet, but others have explained that there are religious cults which break national laws, and this potentially applies to many mainstream religions such as Islam, and some Christian Sects. The Exclusive Brethren come to mind. I think we need to have the freedom to practice any religion as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws or impinge on individual rights to chop and change their religion without fear of being threatened with death or being deprived of contact with their loved ones etc. So how does the swiss ban on turrets, or the various bans on 'Muslim' clothing fit into that? The Americans seem to have a much better grasp on religious freedom. Quote: as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights?

well said.

i am not religious

i am that i am the CHRIST

this is within you also beloveds

namaste

-:)

muso wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 3:35pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 1:51pm: muso wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:16pm: freediver wrote on Aug 28th, 2011 at 12:03pm: So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights? Surely you can see that if a religion requires to sacrifice a virgin to the Sun God every wednesday, then legality trumps human rights? Please let me know if you don't find that blindingly obvious so I can start to worry about you. OK, that's an extreme example, but there need to be some secular controls in place for religion.   Not really. The rights of the virgin trump the rights of the religious people. You do not need to invoke the law at all. Otherwise, the law comes first and rights only exist to the extent they fit conveniently within the law, and whatever changes they want to make to the law in the future. There is nothing at all to clarify when the law trumps religious freedom or vice versa - the law always comes first, no matter how arbitrary it is. Hence my example of bans on turrents and clothes on the basis that they are associated with a religion. The convention provides no way of distinguinshing the human sacrifice example from a ban on telling people about your religion or building a church. That is why it is meaningless. The Americans have a much better grasp of this. I agree that you can circumvent it as it stands. I'd suggest that if there was no provision to do that, then many governments probably wouldn't sign it. Going back to the virgin sacrifice, do I take it that if the virgin approved,  felt honoured and actually wanted to be sacrificed, you'd allow it to go ahead on the basis of religious freedom? - Or maybe you are of the opinion that if somebody wants to be murdered, they have a right to it? As far as the European Convention,  it's more than just the convention as it is written.  Laws  are passed  by individual member nations with the intent of the convention in mind, and if they are challenged in court, it happens in accordance with that intent. Generally the legislation itself goes into a lot more depth than the original document. By the way your original statement "It is legal as long as it's not illegal" tends to be the way things work.  There is nothing banal or stupid about it. That's just how it works.

You are using the classic 'argument from exception'. your example isnt valid as it is probably never going to happen. We see this more and more as laws are enacted to prevent such-and-such or protect us from this-thing yet none of these have much likelihood of occurring. This way we sacrifice rights and freedoms to protect us from a problem that doesnt exist. No law will ever be perfect and trying to be so is perhaps the greatest threat we have. The right to freedom of religion shoudl be absolute and issues of unlawful behaviour shoudl be treated as a secondary aspect - assuming it even happens. AS FD said, some religions have used rape. The right of the individual trumps the right to freedom of relgious expression.  It really IS that simple. we we try and codify rights and handle all the inter-related issues we end up with a mess that reduces our freedoms and offers no more rights or protections. Rights must be treated as RIGHTS - not priviledges or conveniences. If we do otherwise we wil end up eliminating our rights altogether. The competing issues of law vs rights will always be complex. But it is better than trying to legislate them.

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 3:51pm:

Lastnail to mummynail.. "Can I have an icecream?" Mummynail: "NO" Lastnail: "Why wont you ANSWER ME!!!" (tantrum ensues)

That's not what your bible says.

The question is was Jesus lying about the power of prayer ?? Obviously he was.

And now you are comparing your omnipotent God to its imperfect creation. The analogies you bible bashers use are so infant like that only the gullible would swallow them.

In this, one of the most voluntarily irreligious countries on earth, the question 'Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?' sort of answers itself.

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I agree that you can circumvent it as it stands. I'd suggest that if there was no provision to do that, then many governments probably wouldn't sign it.

That's great. You have to make a convention to protect human rights meaningless in order to get countries who want to deny those rights to sign it.


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Going back to the virgin sacrifice, do I take it that if the virgin approved,  felt honoured and actually wanted to be sacrificed, you'd allow it to go ahead on the basis of religious freedom?

The question here is whether to allow people to commit suicide. That question has nothing to do with religion. Adding religion as a context does not change the question.


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As far as the European Convention,  it's more than just the convention as it is written.  Laws  are passed  by individual member nations with the intent of the convention in mind, and if they are challenged in court, it happens in accordance with that intent.

But what is the intent - to protect freedom of religion, or to protect governments that want to make the 'rule of law' over-ride religious freedom? To me it reads like the latter.


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By the way your original statement "It is legal as long as it's not illegal" tends to be the way things work.  There is nothing banal or stupid about it. That's just how it works.

That is how people lose their freedom of religion. The fact that it works is not some kind of defence.


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AS FD said, some religions have used rape. The right of the individual trumps the right to freedom of relgious expression.

Not exactly. Both are human rights. It's just that rights are individual. To use a common example, my right to swing my fists ends at your nose. This is not to say that noses have more rights than fists or that one right supercedes the other, just that rights protect individuals only and end when they impact upon another.


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we we try and codify rights and handle all the inter-related issues we end up with a mess that reduces our freedoms and offers no more rights or protections. Rights must be treated as RIGHTS - not priviledges or conveniences. If we do otherwise we wil end up eliminating our rights altogether. The competing issues of law vs rights will always be complex. But it is better than trying to legislate them.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The fist-nose example I gave is a simple one, but in practice there are always conflicting rights and freedoms and the distinction between victim and agressor can get very subtle. As soon as you get more than one person they cannot help but lose rights.

freediver wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 9:36pm:

Quote: As far as the European Convention,  it's more than just the convention as it is written.  Laws  are passed  by individual member nations with the intent of the convention in mind, and if they are challenged in court, it happens in accordance with that intent. But what is the intent - to protect freedom of religion, or to protect governments that want to make the 'rule of law' over-ride religious freedom? To me it reads like the latter.

IMO, Western society has taken a misstep, in moving away, in largely abandoning, in law, a determination to protect the rights of the individual, to instead, assuming that to protect the rights of the group [over the rights of the individual] is a greater virtue.



"The meaning of God"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1310829488/11#11

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I can imagine that some may argue, that societal laws should protect the majority, and NOT specifically, the individual. I disagree, strongly!! If the detail of the law protects the rights of every individual, THEN AUTOMATICALLY, the interests of every person [of the majority], are also protected. Whereas, lawmakers who make laws for the benefit of 'the majority' will invariably tend to trample upon the interests and rights of some individuals, "in the interests of the majority." IMO, the purpose of our laws should be, to protect the individual, every individual, rather than our laws being 'devoted' to protecting 'society'.

....sorry, i somehow double posted.

Thanks Yadda.

Yadda wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 1:56am:

GoddyofOz wrote on Aug 27th, 2011 at 1:09am: Obviously, this question can't properly be gauged until the results of the Census are detailed, but even then, I wouldn't take much from that, because of dumb Xenophobic viral emails telling people to state their religion as Christianity because of some fear of an influx of Muslims to Australia. However, everywhere I look (T.V Shows like Can of Worms and Q&A, various forums, comments, tweets etc) and through people I know personally, a resounding mocking of Religion has become more and more apparent. This coupled with outrage at the actions of Rev. Nile in NSW sends a clear message. The biggest tell of all, we have an Atheist Prime Minister, although she has proven she is all too willing to suck up to the Fundamentalist Conservative vote when it comes to the gay marriage issue. So, when it comes down to it, is Religion on a decline into Irrelevence in Australia? I say Irrelevence because it is extremely naive to suggest it will disappear entirely. Religion doomed to irrelevance ??? Sure is! Goddy, Here is an interesting Christian article for you.... It suggests that when a culture chooses to reject God, it will always happily embrace homosexuality [i.e. self gratification]. Pornography "....a man can go from being thankful, and from failing to acknowledge the nature of his Creator as revealed in the creation, into homosexuality! It is pretty startling isn't it?, that you can go from being unthankful to being "gay"? ....Therefore God gives them up to their impure hearts.  This is where we come to the issue of turning homosexual.  How can that actually happen?  How could it happen that we as a nation, as a people, could go from being unthankful to our Creator to being homosexual?  And is it happening around us today?  It must be!  "Gay Liberation" is in the newspaper every day.  More and more people are "coming out front" and saying that they have been what are called "closet queens" all their lives.  They have been secretly homosexual and now they finally realize, in their delusion, that it was really O.K. and so they want to practice it everywhere and with everybody.  How does it come about?  This is the really startling thing that God says, in effect:  "Being unthankful will turn you 'queer'." " http://ldolphin.org/wise/0491.html i.e. When a culture becomes obsessed with self gratification, it will always choose to EMBRACE homosexuality, even coming to accept homosexuality as a 'norm'.

Homosexuality isn't, of course, normal.  And, obviously, it isn't natural either.

It is natural and occurs in other non-human animals that tend to form pair bonds. It even occurs in non-primates and non-mammals. There is even a Darwinian explanation for it.

The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it.

Grey wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 10:47pm:

The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it.

Perhaps we ought to be asking .. can we eradicate what some of us perceive as superstition because the blinkers which help us interpret the world .. fail to grasp what religion is all about?

Food for thought hey.

Grey wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 10:47pm:

The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it.

True. Its almost a certainty that superstition cannot fully be eradicated... Even atheists sometimes feel compelled to touch wood.  :)

freediver wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 7:30pm:

It is natural and occurs in other non-human animals that tend to form pair bonds. It even occurs in non-primates and non-mammals. There is even a Darwinian explanation for it.

It may well be natural as a way of providing relief of sexual tension. Animals have been documented to use all sorts of substitutes to a mat of their own species to relief sexual tension.


On that account, should people be able to marry their blow up dolls?? Their horses, goats, sheep?

Soren wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 11:26pm:

On that account, should people be able to marry their blow up dolls?? Their horses, goats, sheep?

What would be the point?

Blow up dolls, horses, goats or sheep won't sue you for half the house after the love has gone ;D

And you can also eat them when you're through with them... Apart from the blow up doll... But you could just incinerate her.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 11:40pm:

And you can also eat them when you're through with them...

Ring my agent!! I have an idea for the next  Master Chef

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Grey wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:47pm: The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it. Perhaps we ought to be asking .. can we eradicate what some of us perceive as superstition because the blinkers which help us interpret the world .. fail to grasp what religion is all about? Food for thought hey.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm

Humans 'Predisposed' to Believe in Gods and the Afterlife

We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies. This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts, such as the existence of supernatural agents or gods, and the possibility of an afterlife or pre-life.'


A bit more food for thought.

Ok .. night all .. this busy bee needs to be up at 6 am.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 30^th, 2011 at 12:08am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:50pm: Grey wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:47pm: The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it. Perhaps we ought to be asking .. can we eradicate what some of us perceive as superstition because the blinkers which help us interpret the world .. fail to grasp what religion is all about? Food for thought hey. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm Humans 'Predisposed' to Believe in Gods and the Afterlife We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies. This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts, such as the existence of supernatural agents or gods, and the possibility of an afterlife or pre-life.' A bit more food for thought. Ok .. night all .. this busy bee needs to be up at 6 am.

Humans are also 'predisposed' to take hallucinatory drugs

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 11:06pm:

Grey wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:47pm: The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it. True. Its almost a certainty that superstition cannot fully be eradicated... Even atheists sometimes feel compelled to touch wood.  :)

I have this deep rooted fear that women can read my mind. Whenever I have a dirty thought they turn around and stare at me. I think this concealed power is what 'secret womens business' is all about.  ;)

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Grey wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:47pm: The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it. Perhaps we ought to be asking .. can we eradicate what some of us perceive as superstition because the blinkers which help us interpret the world .. fail to grasp what religion is all about? Food for thought hey.

Yeh but...no  ;D

Grey wrote on Aug 30^th, 2011 at 1:16am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 11:06pm: Grey wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:47pm: The answer has to be 'no' in all honesty. Nothing that IS can be deemed irrelevant. The question really is - 'can you eradicate superstition?' I very much doubt it. True. Its almost a certainty that superstition cannot fully be eradicated... Even atheists sometimes feel compelled to touch wood.  :) I have this deep rooted fear that women can read my mind. Whenever I have a dirty thought they turn around and stare at me.

Yeah, ain't that the truth... That fear got so bad in me that at one stage that I actually had to stop publicly masturbating.

;D

To be human is to experience self-consciousness, to know separation, to be made aware of limits, and to contemplate ends. One cannot be human therefore without being filled with chronic anxiety, It sounds depressing, but surely it is true. Animals don't need caffeine to start the day, or anti depressants to combat suicidal thoughts.

As the realisation of mortality grew in humans a dreadful sense of anxiety gripped them. The most powerful coping device of all , and the one that I suspect did more to secure this evolutionary breakthrough than any other at the dawn of self-consciousness, was the birth of a theistic concept of God and thus the beginning of what we now call religion.

An emotional thermostat designed to control that hysteria had to be created, survival required it. The creation of various theistic religious forms was the major component of that thermostat.

Whatever the catalyst it finally dawned on human beings to postulate a male deity who ruled the sky and related to the female deity identified with the earth. In time the rain came to be thought of as divine semen that sent from Father Sky to impregnate (fertilise) Mother Earth to make her bear new life and bring forth new fruit.

We should expect to see shock, trauma and hysteria return in countless numbers of ways when theism dies as it is doing today.

But in place of that grovelling to the God of theism, we will be able to open ourselves in new ways to discover the ground of being that is met and known in the self that is emerging as expanded consciousness.

taken from A New Christianity for a New World John Shelby Spong.

Soren wrote on Aug 29^th, 2011 at 11:26pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 29th, 2011 at 7:30pm: It is natural and occurs in other non-human animals that tend to form pair bonds. It even occurs in non-primates and non-mammals. There is even a Darwinian explanation for it. It may well be natural as a way of providing relief of sexual tension. Animals have been documented to use all sorts of substitutes to a mat of their own species to relief sexual tension. On that account, should people be able to marry their blow up dolls?? Their horses, goats, sheep?

I wasn't talking about sexual gratification. Other animals form homsexual pair bonds that resemble heterosexual ones in every detail except sexual reproduction. These can exclude sex altogether.