While we demand Australian Heads of Government subvert justice in Indonesia to save our white people from their little brown people, demanding that these senior politicians personally intervene, we subject their children to just as bad, or worse, without any consideration for their age or circumstance.

It is this which makes us, at best, a laughing stock in Asia... At worst, pernicious and vindictive hypocrites.


Quote:

Of the 500 people arrested, a disturbing number are children. They are boys from Indonesian fishing villages who are recruited to work as cooks and deckhands on asylum seeker boats.... it is thought there may be as many as 40 Indonesian boys in jails in Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-29/casualties-in-the-war-against-smugglers/3607994?WT.svl=news0

I think you would find that all people smugglers were merely cooks. None of them smuggled people.

So what, FD? They're still children. I would have thought their age would have been the standout issue of that post, rather than their occupation.

freediver wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 1:10pm:

I think you would find that all people smugglers were merely cooks. None of them smuggled people.

It think its safer to assume 14 year old boys from poor villages are more likely to be cooks and deckhands than organisers of international people smuggling rackets.

So only the organisers of criminal enterprises should be charged? Everyone else can go free?

What about drug smugglers? Should the mules get off if they insist they aren't the ringleaders?

Their occupation if obviously the issue. They are not in jail because of their age, but because they are part of an international criminal enterprise that takes advantage of desperate people and often kills them.

You need to think about the consequences of your actions. What do you think would be the consequence of sending young criminals back to Indonesia without charge? Why do you think these criminal gangs are recruiting boys to do a mans job in the first place? Do you think it is like Maccas where they hire kids because of minimum wages?

freediver wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 1:21pm:

You need to think about the consequences of your actions. What do you think would be the consequence of sending young criminals back to Indonesia without charge? Why do you think these criminal gangs are recruiting boys to do a mans job in the first place?

I think Indonesian children should be treated distinctly from adults... In the same way we demand of Indonesians... And in the same way we treat Australian minors, recruited in Australia, to commit crimes in Australia, for Australian crime gangs.

Actually, for some bizarre reason, we even arrogate to ourselves a form of Australian exceptionalism with regard to Australian adults in jail in Indonesia.

Quote:

Their occupation if obviously the issue. They are not in jail because of their age, but because they are part of an international criminal enterprise that takes advantage of desperate people and often kills them.

If it wasn't for their age, we probably wouldn't be talking about it.



Quote:

What do you think would be the consequence of sending young criminals back to Indonesia without charge?

What do you think will be the consequence of imprisoning children?

I think they would stop employing children as people smugglers.

Boohoo, don't get on a people smuggling boat.

freediver wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 2:45pm:

I think they would stop employing children as people smugglers.

The attitude that makes us the white trash of Asia.

freediver wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 2:45pm:

I think they would stop employing children as people smugglers.

That's naive. Plenty more where they came from.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:01pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 2:45pm: I think they would stop employing children as people smugglers. The attitude that makes us the white trash of Asia.

hi lee kwan i thought you were dead

got any new things to say about malays lately?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:02pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 2:45pm: I think they would stop employing children as people smugglers. That's naive. Plenty more where they came from.

Why do you think they send children in the first place?

Well, it's obviously not because we've demonstrated any leniency toward kids, is it?

Perhaps children are hired for the same reason a lot of women in poorer countries are hired; they're seen as submissive and loyal. Easier to control.

Quote:

Well, it's obviously not because we've demonstrated any leniency toward kids, is it?

Yes it is.


Quote:

Perhaps children are hired for the same reason a lot of women in third world countries are hired; they're seen as submissive and loyal. Easier to control.

How many female pirates do you know?

Even a half hearted consideration of the situation would lead you to realise that children are obviously not the ideal candidates for this job, so it must be something external to the job itself that makes them hire children.

The popular demand for the observance of Australian exceptionalism... That's the flaw in our flaunting of our pride in our adherence of the rule of law and observance of human rights...

We've lived too long as vassals of the US, to the point where we imagine ourselves to be a superpower and demand the world (particularly Indonesia) treat Australian citizens as special cases.

freediver wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:08pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 3:02pm: freediver wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 2:45pm: I think they would stop employing children as people smugglers. That's naive. Plenty more where they came from. Why do you think they send children in the first place?

Yet we treat Australian minors, in the same circumstances, as minors.

Just so you know, I changed 'third world' to poorer in my last comment.



Quote:

How many female pirates do you know?

I know as many female pirates as I know people smugglers. How many child pirates do you know? Or female people smugglers?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:16pm:

The popular demand for the observance of Australian exceptionalism... That's the flaw in our flaunting of our pride in our adherence of the rule of law and observance of human rights... We've lived too long as vassals of the US, to the point where we imagine ourselves to be a superpower and demand the world (particularly Indonesia) treat Australian citizens as special cases.

Yeah, funny that.  Australian citizens arrested in, say, England or Sweden or Switzerland - we don't demand anything because we know that these countries look at things in a similarly civilised way, like we do.

Some backward, halfcocked, corrupt country arrests Australians and subjects them to degrading  and corrupt treatment and we raise our voices.

Fancy that.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:20pm:

Just so you know, I changed 'third world' to poorer in my last comment. Quote: How many female pirates do you know? I know as many female pirates as I know people smugglers. How many child pirates do you know? Or female people smugglers?

So your argument is that you don't know anyone involved, therefor you must be right?

Don't be ridiculous. I was answering your question.

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:56pm:

Yeah, funny that.  Australian citizens arrested in, say, England or Sweden or Switzerland - we don't demand anything because we know that these countries look at things in a similarly civilised way, like we do. Some backward, halfcocked, corrupt country arrests Australians and subjects them to degrading  and corrupt treatment and we raise our voices. Fancy that.

Guess that explains our hypocrisy towards our treatment of their minors, then. ::)

Australia can, and should, be better than that.

I think they put those minors on the boats because they know that we will treat them less harshly than the adults - and certainly less harshly than they would treat minors in similar circumstances.

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 4:57pm:

I think they put those minors on the boats because they know that we will treat them less harshly than the adults - and certainly less harshly than they would treat minors in similar circumstances.

That's exactly what Australian crims do with Australian minors here in Australia... And we treat them less harshly... But, it seems, our concern for minors extends only to our own... Australian exceptionalism at work.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 4:37pm:

Don't be ridiculous. I was answering your question.

You mostly just missed the point. I will try to make it simpler for you. Do you think children are ideal candidates for the job of smuggling people over open ocean? Or do you think there might be some other explanation?

Quote:

You mostly just missed the point. I will try to make it simpler for you. Do you think children are ideal candidates for the job of smuggling people over open ocean? Or do you think there might be some other explanation?

Quote:

Even a half hearted consideration of the situation would lead you to realise that children are obviously not the ideal candidates for this job, so it must be something external to the job itself that makes them hire children.

Do children make the best soldiers? Probably not, but there are thousands of child soldiers.

How can we know what motivates people smugglers to employ children and in what capacity they use them?

Quote:

How can we know what motivates people smugglers to employ children and in what capacity they use them?

Thinking about it would be a good start.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 6:46pm:

Do children make the best soldiers? Probably not, but there are thousands of child soldiers. How can we know what motivates people smugglers to employ children and in what capacity they use them?

I think I can guess... Children are easily duped by adults, being less capable of comprehending what they're getting into... The few hundred dollars they are offered is more than their family would make, put together, in two years.

Australia then imprisons them for their naivete - and not in juvenile centres... But in adult prisons...

Australian hypocrisy... Australian arrogation of exceptionalism at work for the world to see... And we're all the lesser for it.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 5:29pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 4:57pm: I think they put those minors on the boats because they know that we will treat them less harshly than the adults - and certainly less harshly than they would treat minors in similar circumstances. That's exactly what Australian crims do with Australian minors here in Australia... And we treat them less harshly... But, it seems, our concern for minors extends only to our own... Australian exceptionalism at work.

That is because we put our minors before the criminal intent of their mentors. We know there is a scam, yet we take a longer view, for the sake of the 'children'.

Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by thetr own people if they broke similar laws.

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:00pm:

Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by thetr own people if they broke similar laws.

Yet it is we who lecture Asia on human rights and the special rights of children.

Then lock theirs in prisons with adult rapists and murderers.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 6:58pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 6:46pm: Do children make the best soldiers? Probably not, but there are thousands of child soldiers. How can we know what motivates people smugglers to employ children and in what capacity they use them? I think I can guess... Children are easily duped by adults, being less capable of comprehending what they're getting into... The few hundred dollars they are offered is more than their family would make, put together, in two years. Australia then imprisons them for their naivete - and not in juvenile centres... But in adult prisons... Australian hypocrisy... Australian arrogation of exceptionalism at work for the world to see... And we're all the lesser for it.

You think the children are kidnapped?

freediver wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 6:58pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 6:46pm: Do children make the best soldiers? Probably not, but there are thousands of child soldiers. How can we know what motivates people smugglers to employ children and in what capacity they use them? I think I can guess... Children are easily duped by adults, being less capable of comprehending what they're getting into... The few hundred dollars they are offered is more than their family would make, put together, in two years. Australia then imprisons them for their naivete - and not in juvenile centres... But in adult prisons... Australian hypocrisy... Australian arrogation of exceptionalism at work for the world to see... And we're all the lesser for it. You think the children are kidnapped?

No, I think they're duped into going along for the ride for US$500... And I'd bet it's not because the people smugglers give a flying sh!t whether they're imprisoned with adults if they're caught... It'd be because kids are easier to persuade than adults who have the faculties to weigh up the consequences of getting caught (like 5 years away from their family for $500).

Quote:

No, I think they're duped into going along for the ride for US$500

Wow. I thought you only had to offer lollies. Those Indonesian kids aren't so silly after all. Still, you better alert the authorities about this.

You beeding hearts make it sound like these kids are being held in maximum security playing pick up the soap with serial killers. ::)

I think you will find they are being acommodated far better in detention than they ever were in their home village.

Belgarion wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:27pm:

I think you will find they are being acommodated far better in detention than they ever were in their home village.

Well, I guess some of us will have to believe that... Given we've been hectoring Asia about human rights for decades.

freediver wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:02pm:

Quote: No, I think they're duped into going along for the ride for US$500 Wow. I thought you only had to offer lollies. Those Indonesian kids aren't so silly after all. Still, you better alert the authorities about this.

Aww, I reckon they'd know... Don't you reckon? Given the same crap goes on here...

Either these kids are kidnapped or they aren't. You can't argue it both ways.

I think they go into it knowing what the situation is, and with their family also knowing what the situation is, and that the lenient treatment of minors plays a significant role in the outcome. There is no other reason to send a child on one of these boat trips. There are more than enough dirt poor Indonesian adults looking for work, who would create a far more professional image for the smugglers. Who would want to board a leaky boat staffed by children for a dangerous voyage over open water?

Quote:

I think they go into it knowing what the situation is, and with their family also knowing what the situation is, and that the lenient treatment of minors plays a significant role in the outcome. There is no other reason to send a child on one of these boat trips. There are more than enough dirt poor Indonesian adults looking for work, who would create a far more professional image for the smugglers. Who would want to board a leaky boat staffed by children for a dangerous voyage over open water?

You could very well be right but is that not still exploitation? Whatever their role, the point is that they are children and they are in prison. If we are to lock up kids it should at least be done only in the most extreme of cases. Kids working on a people smuggling boat don't cut it.

Of course it is exploitation.

Working on a people smuggling boat is pretty extreme. You are working for an organised crime gang in international waters breaking the federal laws of at least two countries, putting many lives at risk. Why are you pretending it is some kind of insiginficant offence?

We need to consider the consequences of our actions. If letting children go scott free leads to more children being sent on these dangerous voyages and more of them drowning, is that a good thing?

You do not have an option that involves no child being harmed.

Did you read the actual article?


Quote:

They are boys from Indonesian fishing villages who are recruited to work as cooks and deckhands on asylum seeker boats. It is official policy not to charge children caught in this situation - they are supposed to be deported.

Quote:

One of the longest detentions involves a 16-year-old boy named Ardi. He spent one and a half years in custody before his lawyer managed to obtain enough evidence to prove Ardi was a minor. He was then transferred from an adult prison to an immigration detention centre in Darwin, and from there he was supposed to be sent home. But Radio National's Background Briefing program has discovered that almost two months later, Ardi was still in detention, despite having no charges against him.

Quote:

Another one of the boys is 15-year-old Ose Lani, who accepted an offer in April last year to crew a refugee vessel headed to Ashmore Island. He says he was in a fish market when a man approached him with a $500 job offer. Ose Lani says he did not know the nature of the work, and only realised he was involved in transporting immigrants to Australia when he saw people boarding his boat. "When I got to the place where the people were, I did not know what place it was. I was on the boat," he said. "I asked myself, 'what kind of place is this?' But I just followed along. I went wherever they told to me to go." The boat was intercepted by Australian authorities and Ose Lani was sent to a juvenile detention centre in Darwin. There, a Department of Immigration official assessed Ose Lani to be a child. Despite this, the Australian Federal Police charged the boy, based on a wrist X-ray analysis that it said determined the boy was over 18. Ose Lani was then sent to an adult prison in Brisbane. "Jail nearly killed me. That was the first and last time for me," he said.

Is that what you're arguing for?

This smuggler is an adult, not a child.  ::)

So we are very lenient on minors?

Do you think putting children in adult prisons is lenient?

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:28am:

Either these kids are kidnapped or they aren't. You can't argue it both ways.

You're too seasoned around here to get away with that dishonesty... I've never suggested kidnapping.. Leave the lying to the weaker posters here.


freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:28am:

I think they go into it knowing what the situation is, and with their family also knowing what the situation is, and that the lenient treatment of minors plays a significant role in the outcome. There is no other reason to send a child on one of these boat trips. There are more than enough dirt poor Indonesian adults looking for work, who would create a far more professional image for the smugglers. Who would want to board a leaky boat staffed by children for a dangerous voyage over open water?

Either Australia recognises the rights of all children or it recognises the rights of none... Or are you suggesting we should recognise the special rights of white kids and not those of brown kids... Or is it that just rich kids have special rights and its poverty that disenfranchises other kids, white, brown or black? Or is it only Australian kids who have special rights?

Which is it? One rule for all... Or just for some?

And by the way... No doubt kids are not only more easily persuaded, I'd bet they're cheaper than adults.

And as for the smugglers and their desire for a "professional image"...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrZRrzfMF3o

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

Of course it is exploitation. Working on a people smuggling boat is pretty extreme. You are working for an organised crime gang in international waters breaking the federal laws of at least two countries, putting many lives at risk. Why are you pretending it is some kind of insiginficant offence? We need to consider the consequences of our actions. If letting children go scott free leads to more children being sent on these dangerous voyages and more of them drowning, is that a good thing? You do not have an option that involves no child being harmed.

I would not allow in anyone.

From 1 - 100 years of age.

If you allow in some, then the door is ajar.

I have plenty of sympathy for people in difficult situations, it is most unfortunate, but you cannot make exceptions at any time.

One exception leads to another, and another, and another etc.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:51am:

freediver wrote on Oct 30th, 2011 at 9:50am: Of course it is exploitation. Working on a people smuggling boat is pretty extreme. You are working for an organised crime gang in international waters breaking the federal laws of at least two countries, putting many lives at risk. Why are you pretending it is some kind of insiginficant offence? We need to consider the consequences of our actions. If letting children go scott free leads to more children being sent on these dangerous voyages and more of them drowning, is that a good thing? You do not have an option that involves no child being harmed. I would not allow in anyone. From 1 - 100 years of age. If you allow in some, then the door is ajar. I have plenty of sympathy for people in difficult situations, it is most unfortunate, but you cannot make exceptions at any time. One exception leads to another, and another, and another etc.

Missed the point, Hicks... Read the thread.

I dislike the use of 'white' and 'brown' children.

I thought days of viewing people like that were long gone.....

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:56am:

I dislike the use of 'white' and 'brown' children. I thought days of viewing people like that were long gone.....

You've been out of Australia a while, then?

Quote:

I've never suggested kidnapping..

You did suggest this:


Quote:

No, I think they're duped into going along for the ride for US$500...

Is it not kidnapping if you trick them into agreeing to go?


Quote:

Either Australia recognises the rights of all children or it recognises the rights of none... Or are you suggesting we should recognise the special rights of white kids and not those of brown kids...

As has already been established, we are in fact extremely lenient on children. This is a question of determining whether the person is a child, not whether children should be imprisoned. Obviously it is not as easy to track down the identity of people involved in international people smuggling rings as it is for a local child. We do not let local adult offenders walk free by merely claiming to be younger than they are, so it is not in any way a double standard as you suggest.


Quote:

And by the way... No doubt kids are not only more easily persuaded, I'd bet they're cheaper than adults.

You get what you pay for. You don't see children doing these jobs unless there is some kind of external reason for it.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:11pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 7:00pm: Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by thetr own people if they broke similar laws. Yet it is we who lecture Asia on human rights and the special rights of children. Then lock theirs in prisons with adult rapists and murderers.

Bollocks.

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

Quote: I've never suggested kidnapping.. You did suggest this: [quote]No, I think they're duped into going along for the ride for US$500...

Is it not kidnapping if you trick them into agreeing to go?[/quote]
Not at all... You can dupe someone into doing something, or going somewhere by not informing them of the danger or the risk of detention... the omission of which is not tantamount to kidnapping.


freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

Quote: Either Australia recognises the rights of all children or it recognises the rights of none... Or are you suggesting we should recognise the special rights of white kids and not those of brown kids... As has already been established, we are in fact extremely lenient on children. This is a question of determining whether the person is a child, not whether children should be imprisoned. Obviously it is not as easy to track down the identity of people involved in international people smuggling rings as it is for a local child. We do not let local adult offenders walk free by merely claiming to be younger than they are, so it is not in any way a double standard as you suggest.

If we believe that the special rights of children exist, then we must be vigilant in ensuring that a greater injustice is not committed against a child by presuming them to be adults because we do not have immediate access to their legal guardians. Once placed in an adult prison, we have already violated their recognised special rights without taking every measure to determine their age. If we get it wrong once, then we're on notice that our system of age determination is flawed.

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:00pm:

Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws.

Well said!

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:50pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 7:00pm: Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws. Well said!

Stupidly said. The state of their system is not an excuse for failing ours.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:51pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30th, 2011 at 12:50pm: Soren wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 7:00pm: Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws. Well said! Stupidly said. The state of their system is not an excuse for failing ours.

Who exactly stated that it is being used as an excuse? Or are you just assuming that it is?

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30th, 2011 at 12:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30th, 2011 at 12:50pm: Soren wrote on Oct 29th, 2011 at 7:00pm: Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws. Well said! Stupidly said. The state of their system is not an excuse for failing ours. Who exactly stated that it is being used as an excuse? Or are you just assuming that it is?

When it was raised as a point with regard to mitigating our imprisoning of Indonesian children in adult prisons.

Otherwise, why raise it at all?

We do not put Indonesian children, as children, into adult prisons. It is not possible under our legal system. If they were put into adult priosns it was because they had no ID to prove that they were under 18 or they are children like these children.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/05/15/1226056/376270-refugees.jpg

OMG! Those individuals are definitely NOT children.

Soren wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 2:45pm:

We do not put Indonesian children, as children, into adult prisons. It is not possible under our legal system. If they were put into adult priosns it was because they had no ID to prove that they were under 18 or they are children like these children.

Only pretty ones are children (under 18), Soren?

Quote:

If we believe that the special rights of children exist, then we must be vigilant in ensuring that a greater injustice is not committed against a child by presuming them to be adults because we do not have immediate access to their legal guardians.

So anyone who can successfully hide their identity while committing crimes accross multiple countries should get off scott free if they can't figure out who he is quick enough?


Quote:

Only pretty ones are children (under 18), Soren?

What is your alternative Helian? That any criminal can choose to be under 18 and get a free pass?

Kids Schmids. There's lots of them, they're dumb and trusting of grownups. In another thread there was an outcry about this story -

http://www.news.com.au/world/shocking-scenes-as-passers-by-ignore-dying-toddler-2-in-chinas-guangdong-province/story-e6frfkyi-1226170576832#ixzz1bBxdU4HE

Where is your form people?

<<Yet it is we who lecture Asia on human rights and the special rights of children.

Then lock theirs in prisons with adult rapists and murderers.>>
.............................................................................

Yes, we are hypocritical, but then we learnt well from father America. Australia has an abysmal standard of human rights abuses. Some may say 'who cares' what Amnesty International or other Human Rights watchdogs say about us. As a nation we should care. If we don't care about our reputation in the world, we are the losers, no one else.

It is past time that Australia tried to improve her image in the eyes of the world. Do we want to be looked on as an image of America?

We have the audacity to jump up and down when Indonesia treats one of our children the same way that we treat many of their children. We are in fact worse than Indonesia in that the 14 year old boy has been protected while awaiting trial, but their children are imprisoned with no such protection.

I'll say it again.....


SHAME! AUSTRALIA SHAME!

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:20pm:

Quote: If we believe that the special rights of children exist, then we must be vigilant in ensuring that a greater injustice is not committed against a child by presuming them to be adults because we do not have immediate access to their legal guardians. So anyone who can successfully hide their identity while committing crimes accross multiple countries should get off scott free if they can't figure out who he is quick enough?

So anyway, back to the point... Indonesian minors in Australian adult prisons...

There are two problems here...

The first is the process by which we determine the age of an Indonesian offender (wrist X-rays) is clearly flawed and, if its true that up to 40 of 500 Indonesians in adult prisons are minors, then its seriously flawed... What, do you imagine, we would be saying to Indonesia if it was they who were imprisoning Australian children at that rate? Can you imagine the headlines and talkback radio comments?

The second is that it appears we're almost criminally slow to do the right thing when its clear we've made a mistake :


Quote:

One of the longest detentions involves a 16-year-old boy named Ardi. He spent one and a half years in custody before his lawyer managed to obtain enough evidence to prove Ardi was a minor. He was then transferred from an adult prison to an immigration detention centre in Darwin, and from there he was supposed to be sent home. But Radio National's Background Briefing program has discovered that almost two months later, Ardi was still in detention, despite having no charges against him. Ardi's lawyer David Svoboda says he demanded the immediate release of his client. He says the next day, a Department of Immigration official told him Ardi would be on a plane to Indonesia the same day. Mr Svoboda says he believes that if he had not made those inquiries, Ardi may have remained in detention indefinitely.

Justice delayed is ........ ?

Regarding an Indonesian boy who had been locked up in a maximum security jail in Western Australia .


Quote:

The AFP have not accepted his date of birth, but have not performed the most basic checks. They did not notify Indonesian consular officials of his presence nor did they seek their assistance in determining Kurniawan’s age. Instead the AFP used a wrist-bone scan to determine his age. This technique, established in Australia during the 1950s, is widely discredited. It involves comparing X-rays with those taken from a sample of largely white middle-class children in the United States in the 1930s. It doesn’t take into account that Indonesian children are often working by the time they are 13 and that their wrists therefore show more wear and tear.

Interesting that (but not particularly surprising)... The wrist tests compares Indonesian village childrens' with those taken from a sample of largely white middle-class children in the United States in the 1930s.

http://directaction.org.au/issue34/indonesian_children_in_australian_prisons

Quote:

What, do you imagine, we would be saying to Indonesia if it was they who were imprisoning Australian children at that rate?

I imagine we would be saying "here is the paperwork confirming their age."

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:41am:

Quote: What, do you imagine, we would be saying to Indonesia if it was they who were imprisoning Australian children at that rate? I imagine we would be saying "here is the paperwork confirming their age."

I guess we'd expect them to respond immediately and not rely on discredited wrist X-rays then have the minors locked up for a further 2 months without charge in a detention centre.

Helian what do you expect them to do if they don't know a criminal's age? Maybe drill into their skull and look for growth rings? These are people who deliberately hide their identity while committing crimes on the open sea. It is not a kid caught shoplifting at the local mall.

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:51am:

Helian what do you expect them to do if they don't know a criminal's age? Maybe drill into their skull and look for growth rings? These are people who deliberately hide their identity while committing crimes on the open sea. It is not a kid caught shoplifting at the local mall.

Careful Freediver, your prejudice is showing...

Alleged criminals, Freediver.... Alleged.

For a start, wrist scans is an unreliable method of age estimation... What should a just society do with a clearly flawed process that results in miscarriages of justice?

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am:

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

But that will happen only when the bribe is right.

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Alleged criminals, Freediver.... Alleged.

Are you suggesting they are innocent?


Quote:

For a start, wrist scans is an unreliable method of age estimation...

Is there a reliable method? It seems to me that all you are doing is complaining without offering any kind of improvement.


Quote:

What should a just society do with a clearly flawed process that results in miscarriages of justice?

This is not about justice Helian. It is not a question of innocence or guilt. It is about whether to give them a pardon. There is no burden of proof on our part. There is no "under 18 until proven over 18". It is you who seeks to undermine justice by insisting international criminals should walk free unless we can figure out who they really are.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/05/15/1226056/376270-refugees.jpg

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

Quote: Alleged criminals, Freediver.... Alleged. Are you suggesting they are innocent?

Under Australian law even alleged smugglers are innocent until proven guilty, aren't they?

Under Australian law, minors caught with alleged smugglers are to be immediately deported without charge, aren't they?


freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

Quote: For a start, wrist scans is an unreliable method of age estimation... Is there a reliable method? It seems to me that all you are doing is complaining without offering any kind of improvement.

How about holding those who may be minors in detention centres and not in maximum security prisons until their claims can be confirmed.


freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

Quote: What should a just society do with a clearly flawed process that results in miscarriages of justice? This is not about justice Helian. It is not a question of innocence or guilt.

Not about justice? ;D Isn't that the point of determining innocence or guilt?


freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

It is about whether to give them a pardon. There is no burden of proof on our part. There is no "under 18 until proven over 18". It is you who seeks to undermine justice by insisting international criminals should walk free unless we can figure out who they really are.

And we commit a greater injustice by holding minor in maximum security prisons. Why maximum security? How dangerous is a young Indonesian poor village boy?

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:58am: What would we expect the Indonesians to do? I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:28pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 8:33am: NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:58am: What would we expect the Indonesians to do? I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia. Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get.

I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you?

Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.)

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:28pm: Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 8:33am: NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:58am: What would we expect the Indonesians to do? I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia. Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get. I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you? Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.)

No one's asked me if I'd like an Australian head of state either, nor whether WA and Qld should secede... Looks like I'm stuck with the status quo, like the rest of us... Like it or not.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:36pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:33pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:28pm: Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 8:33am: NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:58am: What would we expect the Indonesians to do? I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia. Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get. I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you? Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.) No one's asked me if I'd like an Australian head of state either, nor whether WA and Qld should secede... Looks like I'm stuck with the status quo, like the rest of us... Like it or not.

Not that any of this has anything to do with managing a vast multi-ethnic, fractious, corrupt backwater.

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:36pm: Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:33pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:28pm: Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 8:33am: NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31st, 2011 at 7:58am: What would we expect the Indonesians to do? I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia. Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get. I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you? Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.) No one's asked me if I'd like an Australian head of state either, nor whether WA and Qld should secede... Looks like I'm stuck with the status quo, like the rest of us... Like it or not. Not that any of this has anything to do with managing a vast multi-ethnic, fractious, corrupt backwater.

No, nice thought, but...

Would you really want 7 separate independent post-Indonesian states created in the aftermath of an Indonesian dissolution?

Geez, our senior politicians would be spending all their Parliamentary time up there trying to subvert their separate political and justice systems demanding Australian exceptionalism for our locals who break their laws.

Quote:

Under Australian law, minors caught with alleged smugglers are to be immediately deported without charge, aren't they?

Not exactly. It takes a while, especially if they lie about their identity.


Quote:

How about holding those who may be minors in detention centres and not in maximum security prisons until their claims can be confirmed.

How would this determine how old the adults are? Wrist X-rays seem like a much more reliable method to me. Or have you changed your mind about what you are complaining about?


Quote:

Not about justice? Grin Isn't that the point of determining innocence or guilt?

Sure, but it is not the point of determining their age.

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:34pm:

Quote: Under Australian law, minors caught with alleged smugglers are to be immediately deported without charge, aren't they? Not exactly. It takes a while, especially if they lie about their identity.

Precious few can fake being under 18 I'd bet.


freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:34pm:

Quote: How about holding those who may be minors in detention centres and not in maximum security prisons until their claims can be confirmed. How would this determine how old the adults are? Wrist X-rays seem like a much more reliable method to me. Or have you changed your mind about what you are complaining about?

Haven't changed my mind at all... Never said they shouldn't be detained... And given only a fraction of those caught working boats could plausibly claim to be under 18, holding those who do in detention centres hardly constitutes a national security risk. The real smugglers are safe in Indonesia running mafia style organisations... The ones we catch are poor fishermen...

"Would you really want 7 separate independent post-Indonesian states created in the aftermath of an Indonesian dissolution?"

Yes, please. Well, how about 3 or 4? If they do not belong together, they shouln't be together. What unites Indonesia?
Javanese overlordship. We have seen how it works in Timor.

Australia is a functioning democracy with a constitution that is older than most other constitutions in the world. Australi is a commonwealth as a result of a democratic choice. The Australian legal and political system is superior to almost every other in existence. Certainly in a completly different and uperior league from Indonnesia and the rest of Asia.

To me, that's a good enough reason to claim exception from the corrupt semi-sharia law that passes for justice in Indonesia. I think it is a false politeness to treat the backward and corrupt as if they weren't. It takes away what is lft of thir dignity, denying them their ability to take responsibiliy for themselves. There should not be a 'diversity of standards' by which countries are judged.

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Precious few can fake being under 18 I'd bet.

They fooled you.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/05/15/1226056/376270-refugees.jpg


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Never said they shouldn't be detained...

So you support the detainment of children now?


Quote:

And given only a fraction of those caught working boats could plausibly claim to be under 18

Who said it has to be plausible?

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:42pm:

There should not be a 'diversity of standards' by which countries are judged.

We should hold ourselves accountable only to the standards we have set for ourselves and those we'd will for all others...

The level of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own.

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote: Precious few can fake being under 18 I'd bet. They fooled you. http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/05/15/1226056/376270-refugees.jpg

Did they?


freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote: Never said they shouldn't be detained... So you support the detainment of children now?

Holding them in a centre designed for minors until their guardians can be contacted is not unreasonable... Seems the ones who were released as minors were not identified as such by the authorities, but by charity groups who sometimes took a few weeks to locate and obtain verifiable identification... A sight shorter than they had already been detained in maximum security prisons.


freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote: And given only a fraction of those caught working boats could plausibly claim to be under 18 Who said it has to be plausible?

Common sense. Or would you mistake your dad for your son?

And if they insisted on (the discredited) wrist x-rays, then maybe they shouldn't compare Indonesian village boys' wrists to middle class American ones.

How old is the American wrist xray survey?

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:42pm:

How old is the American wrist xray survey?

Done in 1930, I believe.

So you think modern day Indoesia is sufficiently backwards that the kids lead a life so much harder than American children during the great depression that it would show up as a statistically significant difference on wrist Xrays?

Or are they just a different type of human so Xrays of white people don't count?

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:47pm:

So you think modern day Indoesia is sufficiently backwards that the kids lead a life so much harder than American children during the great depression that it would show up as a statistically significant difference on wrist Xrays? Or are they just a different type of human so Xrays of white people don't count?

Depends on whether the middle class kids had been working since they were 12, I guess (which I doubt)... The age when most Indonesians from poor fishing villages are expected to take on an adult's job ready or not. I'd bet even most Australian kids during the depression didn't work as hard.

Apples with apples...

Either way, the wrist X-ray procedure has already been discredited as unreliable.

Either way, you still have not suggested a viable alternative to the X-rays. Are we back to drilling into their skulls? You seem to change your mind about what your complaint is every time this comes up.

Who discredited it?

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 8:14pm:

Either way, you still have not suggested a viable alternative to the X-rays. Are we back to drilling into their skulls? You seem to change your mind about what your complaint is every time this comes up. Who discredited it?

FD, you might not be sufficiently Irish Catholic atheist to see the point of helian's argument. All you need is artful conviction if you are in that category.

If foreigners are reliably identified as under age, they are treated accordingly under Australian law. If they cannot be reliably identified, the people who need to deal with them will take an educated guess until reliable information comes to hand.
This seems to work for most reasonable observers, except the Irish Catholic atheist demographic - or two out of three at any rate.

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 8:14pm:

Either way, you still have not suggested a viable alternative to the X-rays. Are we back to drilling into their skulls? You seem to change your mind about what your complaint is every time this comes up. Who discredited it?

It's great reading your thrashing around... Usually it's only the sh!t posters who play that game here...

Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...


Quote:

The United Nations child protection agency UNICEF has warned that dental and skeletal tests should not be relied upon to determine the age of children, and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees says if the exact age is uncertain, the child should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:17pm:

If foreigners are reliably identified as under age, they are treated accordingly under Australian law. If they cannot be reliably identified, the people who need to deal with them will take an educated guess until reliable information comes to hand.

Not easy for that 'reliable information' coming to hand when the 'people who deal with them' don't bother to verify their claim nor inform the Indonesian consulate or Embassy.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 8:36am:

Soren wrote on Nov 1st, 2011 at 9:17pm: If foreigners are reliably identified as under age, they are treated accordingly under Australian law. If they cannot be reliably identified, the people who need to deal with them will take an educated guess until reliable information comes to hand. Not easy for that 'reliable information' coming to hand when the 'people who deal with them' don't bother to verify their claim nor inform the Indonesian consulate or Embassy.

Well, they are busy. Mebbe the detained Indonesians could actually think of contacting their own embassy.

Australia can be expected to act as a nanny state to Australians, not the whole bloody world.

Quote:

Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...

I think wrist Xrays would give a better estimate of age than telling a charity about the problem.


Quote:

and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child

Do you think this would be more accurate? Do you think it is not already done? Do you think the interviewers are unaware than the Indonesian people smugglers are from Indonesia and speak Indonesian?

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 7:10pm:

Quote: Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start... I think wrist Xrays would give a better estimate of age than telling a charity about the problem.

Really? It was a refugee rights activist group that got those minors mentioned previously back home, not wrist X-rays or the Australian authorities.


freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 7:10pm:

Quote: and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child Do you think this would be more accurate? Do you think it is not already done? Do you think the interviewers are unaware than the Indonesian people smugglers are from Indonesia and speak Indonesian?

Speak Indonesian do they?

Poverty-stricken village kids are going to be more fluent in Bahasa Indonesia than any one of the 742 languages and dialects spoken within the Indonesian archipelago, you think?

In the cases mentioned previously, the Australian authorities didn't bother to consult the Indonesian Consulate / Embassy or make any attempt (other than wrist X-rays) to verify the minors' claims.

Perhaps they were prioritising the processing of the refugees above the criminals that smuggled them in.

Did the parents of these 'children' know what they were up to? It seems to me that the most obvious course of action is to wait for the parents to come forward and make a complaint. This would be a good way to separate out those who genuinely are minors from those trying to hide their identity.

Are you suggesting that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation? It all seems either very far fetched or based on only half the story.

freediver wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 6:47pm:

Did the parents of these 'children' know what they were up to? It seems to me that the most obvious course of action is to wait for the parents to come forward and make a complaint. This would be a good way to separate out those who genuinely are minors from those trying to hide their identity.

The definition of 'minor' in a poverty-stricken Indonesian village is unlikely to be the same as ours, where the age of 'majority' is more closely associated with puberty and when the minor can take on the labour responsibilities of an adult, or even marry.


freediver wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 6:47pm:

Are you suggesting that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation? It all seems either very far fetched or based on only half the story.

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

don't tell me they have mistaken a 13 year old for a grown up!

If these kids look like our late teens early twenties, then a fetish aout the number of revolutions around the sun since their birth may be not that relevant de facto, even if it is de jure.
Turn it around - would you want developmentally adult foreigners in  juvenile prison with all the innocent Aussie bunnies???

Mind you, I have seen a middle eastern kid in a junior high school uniform  with a bushier and longer beard than I could ever hope for, a hairy middle weight viking lesbian trapped in a man's body though I am.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:56pm: Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really. If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Obviously people who do not know how it feels to join an international crime syndicate at 13 are unlikely to find out how it feels to end up in a big kids prison at 13.

He still got off lightly.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:56pm: Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really. If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Where are his parents??  By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents.

But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values.

But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!!

It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!!  Are you sure you are an atheist?

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 8:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 7:17pm: freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:56pm: Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really. If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think? Obviously people who do not know how it feels to join an international crime syndicate at 13 are unlikely to find out how it feels to end up in a big kids prison at 13. He still got off lightly.

Did he?

I'll have to take your word for it.

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 7:17pm: freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:56pm: Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really. If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think? Where are his parents??  By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents. But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values. But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!! It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!!  Are you sure you are an atheist?

Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere...

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own...

Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us.

I am a 12 year old Hindu girl.

LAWYER!!!!

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:36pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 9:01pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 7:17pm: freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:56pm: Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really. If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think? Where are his parents??  By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents. But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values. But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!! It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!!  Are you sure you are an atheist? Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere... The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own... Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us.

What concern us is : how do we know what age he is when we get im off that boat without authentic proof of ID?

How many 13 year old do YOU know that look 18-19?


Or are you saying tha Australian governement officials knowingly treat obviously 13 boys as adults? If so, you should report it to the Attorney General.

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 9:36pm: Soren wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 9:01pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 7:17pm: freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:56pm: Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really. If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think? Where are his parents??  By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents. But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values. But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!! It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!!  Are you sure you are an atheist? Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere... The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own... Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us. What concern us is : how do we know what age he is when we get im off that boat without authentic proof of ID? How many 13 year old do YOU know that look 18-19? Or are you saying tha Australian governement officials knowingly treat obviously 13 boys as adults? If so, you should report it to the Attorney General.

Probably the authorities couldn't be bothered going any further that the wrist x-ray check... Didn't even call the Consulate or Embassy...

I'd bet it already has been reported to the Attorney General.

Quote:

Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere...

We cannot apply our standards for being able to tell how old a criminal is. Were it an Australian criminal whose age could not be determined he would be treated the same way, and there would be no obligation on the police to move heaven and earth to figure out who he is. No hypocrisy there. Remember the 'German' lass?


Quote:

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein

You keep confusing this for an issue of justice, which it is not. It is not out of justice that we let criminals walk free.

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:03pm:

We cannot apply our standards for being able to tell how old a criminal is. Were it an Australian criminal whose age could not be determined he would be treated the same way, and there would be no obligation on the police to move heaven and earth to figure out who he is. No hypocrisy there. Remember the 'German' lass?

Calling the Indonesian Embassy is moving heaven and earth to you? Do you have a tractor sized phone or are you a 4 inch midget?


freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:03pm:

Quote: The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein You keep confusing this for an issue of justice, which it is not. It is not out of justice that we let criminals walk free.

Minors, you mean... The rest are alleged criminals... I'm aware you don't see it as a matter of justice... It's clear its more like vigilantism to you.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:02pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 9:58pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 9:36pm: Soren wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 9:01pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 7:17pm: freediver wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 6:56pm: Quote: In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing. Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really. If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think? Where are his parents??  By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents. But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values. But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!! It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!!  Are you sure you are an atheist? Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere... The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own... Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us. What concern us is : how do we know what age he is when we get im off that boat without authentic proof of ID? How many 13 year old do YOU know that look 18-19? Or are you saying tha Australian governement officials knowingly treat obviously 13 boys as adults? If so, you should report it to the Attorney General. Probably the authorities couldn't be bothered going any further that the wrist x-ray check... Didn't even call the Consulate or Embassy... I'd bet it already has been reported to the Attorney General.

Do you rally think the Embassy would have their details all in the 'computer'??

Their parents don't even know where they are! THEY don't know where they are or what they are doing  (pull the other one).

"officer, I went fishing one day and blow me down wiv a fevver, here I am in Ostraliya!  Gimme asylum or a packet of fags. I am child."

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:11pm:

Do you rally think the Embassy would have their details all in the 'computer'?? Their parents don't even know where they are! THEY don't know where they are or what they are doing  (pull the other one). "officer, I went fishing one day and blow me down wiv a fevver, here I am in Ostraliya!  Gimme asylum or a packet of fags. I am child."

Remember that if one of your nephews goes missing in Indonesia.

Clever.
When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember.

why would anybody go to bali on a vacation anyway.

what a sh!t place.

barnaby joe wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

why would anybody go to bali on a vacation anyway. what a sh!t place.

Bali is amazingly beautiful, with wonderful people. If you are confusing the small strip at kuta designed to entertain the aussie yob element , then you are not really talking about the real bali, and the crassness of that area has developed because of aussies, not because of the balinese.

You just described capitalism in a nutshell there Mozz.

Is there any wonder that there are protests going on?

I'm not really understanding your short and narrow view there.
Trust me mate, I'm squinting very tightly in an attempt to understand what you're on about.

IMO, look up "Logan's Run". Download that and see if it fits with your POV.

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:00pm:

Clever. When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember.

Are you comparing minors sailing 170 Kms in a fishing boat, into open water to dump 50+ asylum seekers on an uninhabited Island reef then sailing 170 Kms back with a footy piss up in Bali?

Quote:

Calling the Indonesian Embassy is moving heaven and earth to you?

You keep saying that, but I don't believe that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation. I think your whole argument is based on not having a clue what actually happened and filling in the blanks with whatever suits your argument at the time.


Quote:

Minors, you mean... The rest are alleged criminals... I'm aware you don't see it as a matter of justice... It's clear its more like vigilantism to you.

No Helian, it's just that there is a subtle yet important distinction between whether the people smugglers are people smugglers and whether they are over 18. Both of these points I have raised before and you  decided that your complaint was now about something else, only to change your mind back again.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:10am:

Quote: Calling the Indonesian Embassy is moving heaven and earth to you? You keep saying that, but I don't believe that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation. I think your whole argument is based on not having a clue what actually happened and filling in the blanks with whatever suits your argument at the time. [quote]Minors, you mean... The rest are alleged criminals... I'm aware you don't see it as a matter of justice... It's clear its more like vigilantism to you.

No Helian, it's just that there is a subtle yet important distinction between whether the people smugglers are people smugglers and whether they are over 18. Both of these points I have raised before and you  decided that your complaint was now about something else, only to change your mind back again.[/quote]
What I have always argued is that minors should be treated as minors in Australia under Australian law. What you have argued from page 1, in varying degrees of deflective rhetorical quality, is that "it doesn't matter, they're still with people smugglers" or "they're probably lying and not minors anyway".

Quote:

What I have always argued is that minors should be treated as minors in Australia under Australian law. What you have argued from page 1, in varying degrees of deflective rhetorical quality, is that "it doesn't matter, they're still with people smugglers" or "they're probably lying and not minors anyway".

What I argued was that they use minors as people smugglers because we are so lenient on them. Your argument assumes some kind of magical ability to know how old a foreign criminal is when they try to hide their identity.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:44am:

Quote: What I have always argued is that minors should be treated as minors in Australia under Australian law. What you have argued from page 1, in varying degrees of deflective rhetorical quality, is that "it doesn't matter, they're still with people smugglers" or "they're probably lying and not minors anyway". What I argued was that they use minors as people smugglers because we are so lenient on them. Your argument assumes some kind of magical ability to know how old a foreign criminal is when they try to hide their identity.

Minors do not pilot those boats to Ashmore.

And, (as the lawyers for minors discovered when confirming the claims of their clients) few poor village kids, in the parts of Indonesia where these minors live, possess papers themselves... Probably because most are illiterate, I'd bet...

But at the very least now, you accept that minors are on board and your beef is now Australian leniency in the case of Indonesian minors.

Quote:

Minors do not pilot those boats to Ashmore.

So what?

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 12:32pm:

Quote: Minors do not pilot those boats to Ashmore. So what?

They are minors... Under Australian law they have not allegedly committed any crime... Those boats are piloted by adults.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 6:48am:

Soren wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 11:00pm: Clever. When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember. Are you comparing minors sailing 170 Kms in a fishing boat, into open water to dump 50+ asylum seekers on an uninhabited Island reef then sailing 170 Kms back with a footy piss up in Bali?

I am illustrating how preposterous it is to pretend they had no idea of what was going on. These were not the first boat from that part of indonesia where they have lived all their lives.

Are you suggeting they had thought they were taking a load of Arabs, Persians and Afghans on a Club Med deep sea fishing trip?

Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:42pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 5th, 2011 at 6:48am: Soren wrote on Nov 4th, 2011 at 11:00pm: Clever. When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember. Are you comparing minors sailing 170 Kms in a fishing boat, into open water to dump 50+ asylum seekers on an uninhabited Island reef then sailing 170 Kms back with a footy piss up in Bali? I am illustrating how preposterous it is to pretend they had no idea of what was going on. These were not the first boat from that part of indonesia where they have lived all their lives. Are you suggeting they had thought they were taking a load of Arabs, Persians and Afghans on a Club Med deep sea fishing trip?

I have been suggesting (for the last 8 pages) that under Australian law, if they have not reached the age of majority, then they are minors and are entitled, under Australian law, to be treated as minors, including the expectation that Australian authorities will make reasonable efforts in every case to verify their claims of minority.

How can you tell they are minors when you get them off the boats?

Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:59pm:

How can you tell they are minors when you get them off the boats?

Follow up on their claims of minority... Even if that means referring their case to asylum seeker action groups and charities.

Quote:

I have been suggesting (for the last 8 pages) that under Australian law, if they have not reached the age of majority, then they are minors and are entitled, under Australian law, to be treated as minors, including the expectation that Australian authorities will make reasonable efforts in every case to verify their claims of minority.

And you have been missing the point for 8 pages - that is what Australian law already says and does.


Quote:

They are minors...

So why bring up the fact that they were not pilots? You seem to change the topic constantly rather than actually addressing any single issue, because you cannot make a valid argument on any single issue. Changing your mind is not the same thing as a rational argument.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

Quote: I have been suggesting (for the last 8 pages) that under Australian law, if they have not reached the age of majority, then they are minors and are entitled, under Australian law, to be treated as minors, including the expectation that Australian authorities will make reasonable efforts in every case to verify their claims of minority. And you have been missing the point for 8 pages - that is what Australian law already says and does.

Law requires vigilant attention and consistent action to ensure it is upheld. If 9 - 10% of Indonesians in adult prisons are minors, the law is not being upheld.


freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

Quote: They are minors... So why bring up the fact that they were not pilots? You seem to change the topic constantly rather than actually addressing any single issue, because you cannot make a valid argument on any single issue. Changing your mind is not the same thing as a rational argument.

Firstly it hardly detracts from my point (and distracts only those who seek to deflect the argument.

If you did not use deflective rhetoric, regarding minors being used as people smugglers, we wouldn't have to go there at all.

But they are being used as people smugglers. They are no different to a 16 year old helping to smuggle in half a tonne of heroin.

Except more people die because of the people smugglers.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 7:46pm:

But they are being used as people smugglers. They are no different to a 16 year old helping to smuggle in half a tonne of heroin. Except more people die because of the people smugglers.

They are used by people smugglers... Under Australian law, as minors they have not committed any crime by their actions.

Mate, half a tonne of heroin would kill many times more than people smuggling.
(Another deflection of yours, BTW)

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 7:46pm:

They are no different to a 16 year old helping to smuggle in half a tonne of heroin. Except more people die because of the people smugglers.

Sorry FD. I've got to go "call" on that one.

Any links?

A bunch of people just drowned due to the actions of people smugglers in a single incident.

How many people do you think die due to heroin in Australia each year?


Quote:

They are used by people smugglers... Under Australian law, as minors they have not committed any crime by their actions.

You can spin the law however you want. That does not mean that it is an issue of justice.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:46pm:

A bunch of people just drowned due to the actions of people smugglers in a single incident. How many people do you think die due to heroin in Australia each year?

You raised it FD (although obviously as a deflection), you substantiate it...

I personally know of three people who died from heroin overdose and know of a few more than that.


freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:46pm:

Quote: They are used by people smugglers... Under Australian law, as minors they have not committed any crime by their actions. You can spin the law however you want. That does not mean that it is an issue of justice.

Australian law is not necessarily in the interests of justice, FD?

No Helian. Like I said, whether they are under 18 and whether they committed the crime are two separate issues, only one of which is about justice.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 10:02pm:

No Helian. Like I said, whether they are under 18 and whether they committed the crime are two separate issues, only one of which is about justice.

It is highly unlikely that 14 year old boys take any active part in navigating a fishing boat 170 Kms in open water to Ashmore... We Australians have determined that they are not the alleged culprits of people smuggling due to their age (and no doubt due to high unlikelihood of their inability to control adults being smuggled to Ashmore). They, far more than likely did not smuggle anyone and, under Australian law, they did not commit a crime.

It seems this issue is gaining some more attention...

And highlights both the hypocrisy of Australia's demands for our own citizens with regard to the Indonesian justice system and the lack of our duty of care when dealing with theirs.


Quote:

...the jailing of the boys has sparked growing outrage among lawyers, diplomats, politicians and human rights activists in Australia and Indonesia, particularly when measured against Indonesia's treatment of a 14-year-old Lake Macquarie boy who appeared in court in Bali on Friday, accompanied by his father, and pleaded for leniency on drug offences.

Quote:

X-ray age test deemed useless INTERNATIONAL experts warn that using wrist X-rays to determine age is unethical, inaccurate and potentially unlawful. To expose the fallibility of the police's preferred technique, Terry Fisher, from Fisher Dore Solicitors in Brisbane, commissioned expert analysis from England's former children's commissioner, Professor Al Aynsley-Green, who says the X-rays ''can never tell precisely the chronological age'' of an adolescent. It could only estimate skeletal maturity by bone density. The result could be two years too old or too young, Professor Aynsley-Green said. In some cases, the discrepancy can be five years. ''Serious injustice is possible,'' he said. A United Nations child protection agency and the Australian Medical Association have called the test useless.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/plucked-from-poor-villages-boys-land-in-jail-20111105-1n14h.html#ixzz1crhx6LFO

No points for guessing what the Australian white trash 10% would have to say if the Indonesian media made rich celebrities out of their minors on being repatriated after unjustly serving time in Australian adult prisons...

Bali boy to talk after six-figure deal with Nine and 60 Minutes

Quote:

It is highly unlikely that 14 year old boys take any active part in navigating a fishing boat 170 Kms in open water to Ashmore...

So what?


Quote:

We Australians have determined that they are not the alleged culprits of people smuggling due to their age

No Helian, that is not what we have determined. Their age does not change the facts, only the consequences.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 7:55am:

Quote: We Australians have determined that they are not the alleged culprits of people smuggling due to their age No Helian, that is not what we have determined. Their age does not change the facts, only the consequences.

We have determined that minors are not people smugglers.

Is a minor caught smuggling drugs not a drug smuggler? Is a minor caught stealing not a thief?

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 8:10am:

Is a minor caught smuggling drugs not a drug smuggler? Is a minor caught stealing not a thief?

This thread refers to minors caught with alleged people smugglers, which we have determined are not themselves alleged people smugglers.

Quote:

which we have determined

How so?

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:04am:

Quote: which we have determined How so?

Because we have determined that, due to their minority, they are not capable of intent to smuggle people into Australia.

from what I have read 14 year old boys in some countries and Indonesia is one of them is a MAN...he is not longer a child..he is expected to do what anyone of 18/20 will do.... and yes I would imagine that would include steering a boat..full of paying asylums seekers.

cods wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:55am:

from what I have read 14 year old boys in some countries and Indonesia is one of them is a MAN...he is not longer a child..he is expected to do what anyone of 18/20 will do.... and yes I would imagine that would include steering a boat..full of paying asylums seekers.

And some other countries allow marriages at 13.

However, we are in Australia (or at least I am) and in Australia, Australian law prevails.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 9:51am:

freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2011 at 9:04am: Quote: which we have determined How so? Because we have determined that, due to their minority, they are not capable of intent to smuggle people into Australia.

People under 18 are not capable of intent in general, or only with respect to this particular crime?

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 6th, 2011 at 9:51am: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2011 at 9:04am: Quote: which we have determined How so? Because we have determined that, due to their minority, they are not capable of intent to smuggle people into Australia. People under 18 are not capable of intent in general, or only with respect to this particular crime?

Forget the cock-eyed attempts at deflection...

This thread refers to minors caught with alleged people smugglers (and Australia's seriously flawed attempts at verifying their claims of minority).

We have determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers.

Under Australian law with regard to minors caught with alleged people smugglers, intent or foreknowledge is not pursued legally.

My personal belief (and do not confuse this as the point of this thread) is that they are highly unlikely to be capable of people smuggling insofar as it would require (a) the ability to control 50+ potentially panicked adults, (b) considerable knowledge of how to reach a destination unknown to minors (namely Ashmore, 170Kms from the southernmost Indonesian island - Rote) and (c) significant experience and skill at navigating a vessel through open waters - Not an exercise Indonesian fishing village kids would ever have embarked on to catch fish for their village.

This is not a deflection. It goes to the heart of the matter. You are insisting that people smugglers are not even accused of being people smugglers. There is a big difference between letting a kid off for committing a crime and rpetending he did not do it in the first place.


Quote:

We have determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers.

How so?


Quote:

Under Australian law with regard to minors caught with alleged people smugglers, intent or foreknowledge is not pursued legally.

Of cours it isn't, as they would be let off regardless of the outcome. That does not mean that 'we have determined' there was no intent.


Quote:

as it would require (a) the ability to control 50+ potentially panicked adults

How hard do you think it is to control people in a boat? Where are the going to run to?


Quote:

(b) considerable knowledge of how to reach a destination unknown to minors

You have pointed out about a dozen times now that they were not the 'pilot' of the boat. Each time I respond 'so what' and you end up backpedalling and pretending I am the one deflecting, only to make the same idiotic claim yet again.

So, this time try answer. So what?

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2011 at 8:01pm:

This is not a deflection. It goes to the heart of the matter. You are insisting that people smugglers are not even accused of being people smugglers. There is a big difference between letting a kid off for committing a crime and rpetending he did not do it in the first place. Quote: We have determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers. How so? [quote]Under Australian law with regard to minors caught with alleged people smugglers, intent or foreknowledge is not pursued legally.

Of cours it isn't, as they would be let off regardless of the outcome. That does not mean that 'we have determined' there was no intent.


Quote:

as it would require (a) the ability to control 50+ potentially panicked adults

How hard do you think it is to control people in a boat? Where are the going to run to?


Quote:

(b) considerable knowledge of how to reach a destination unknown to minors

You have pointed out about a dozen times now that they were not the 'pilot' of the boat. Each time I respond 'so what' and you end up backpedalling and pretending I am the one deflecting, only to make the same idiotic claim yet again.

So, this time try answer. So what?[/quote]
I'm loving the airplay this is getting beyond this forum..

I will not respond any further to my personal belief (as stated above) regarding the issue of minors caught with alleged smugglers.

This thread refers to minors caught with alleged people smugglers (and Australia's seriously flawed attempts at verifying their claims of minority).

We have (as in Australia has) determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers.

Under Australian law with regard to minors caught with alleged people smugglers, intent or foreknowledge is not pursued legally.

Quote:

We have (as in Australia has) determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers.

Round and round we go.

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2011 at 7:27pm:

Quote: We have (as in Australia has) determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers. Round and round we go.

Not me, buddy... Just you.

Just seen this 'topic'.

Obscene and redundant.

Lets be more positive eh??????????

Seems we're a bit sloppy when it comes to 'expert' witnesses with regard to determining the age of Indonesian fishing villagers' kids


Quote:

Doubts were raised about Dr Low's credentials as an expert witness for the Crown. BELINDA LONSDALE, BARRISTER: Your principal area of practice, I think, is in gastro-intestinal radiology? VINCENT LOW: Yes. BELINDA LONSDALE: And in fact you've told us that you're not a bone radiologist? VINCENT LOW: Yes. KERRY BREWSTER: Judge Bowden ruled that Wat had been under 18 at the time of his arrest. His judgement casts grave doubt on the AFP'S almost total reliance on the controversial X-rays to prove age.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3358566.htm?site=melbourne

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 8^th, 2011 at 11:07pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2011 at 7:27pm: Quote: We have (as in Australia has) determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers. Round and round we go. Not me, buddy... Just you.

Maybe I missed something Helian. As far as I can tell you have just repeated the same idiotic statement over and over again without explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

freediver wrote on Nov 9^th, 2011 at 7:49pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 8th, 2011 at 11:07pm: freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2011 at 7:27pm: Quote: We have (as in Australia has) determined those minors are not themselves alleged people smugglers. Round and round we go. Not me, buddy... Just you. Maybe I missed something Helian. As far as I can tell you have just repeated the same idiotic statement over and over again without explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Keep going...

Your replies reiterate and emphasise the point of the OP.

There is nowhere left to go. We are down to you repeating yourself.

goodbye  :)

freediver wrote on Nov 9^th, 2011 at 9:40pm:

There is nowhere left to go. We are down to you repeating yourself.

You have spent most of the last 10 pages attempting to deflect from the OP... From 'they're all guilty anyway' to 'people smuggling kills more than a half tonne of heroin'...

We were never going to my personal opinion on the intent, foreknowledge and capacity of Indonesian minors in this issue.

Fact is a significant number of Indonesian minors are in Australian adult prisons due largely to Australia's use of a seriously flawed process for determining age... And it turns out we've been misusing the technology...

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3358566.htm?site=melbourne

If you've nothing further to add to that... Then don't reply any further.

Quote:

We were never going to my personal opinion on the intent, foreknowledge and capacity of Indonesian minors in this issue.

Yet you brought it up, and it is apparently central to your position, and is the only explanation for your claim that this is an issue of justice. If you don't want people to question your absurd beliefs, don't post them over and over again. Not charging a minor for a crime does not mean that they did not do it. Not piloting a boat does not mean they are not people smugglers.

Can you blokes hang on a tick? I've got to nick down the street and grab the pizza and beer.

I'll be right back!!!

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 12:59pm:

While we demand Australian Heads of Government subvert justice in Indonesia to save our white people from their little brown people, demanding that these senior politicians personally intervene, we subject their children to just as bad, or worse, without any consideration for their age or circumstance. It is this which makes us, at best, a laughing stock in Asia... At worst, pernicious and vindictive hypocrites. Quote: Of the 500 people arrested, a disturbing number are children. They are boys from Indonesian fishing villages who are recruited to work as cooks and deckhands on asylum seeker boats.... it is thought there may be as many as 40 Indonesian boys in jails in Australia. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-29/casualties-in-the-war-against-smugglers/3607994?WT.svl=news0

What a marvellous example of the unselfconscious paradox of the modern western progressivist mind:

To this group of internationalists, in one breath/thought, the west is repudiated as the oppressing, mendacious, exploitative, greedy and colonising villan of the ages - but in the next breath/fit of pique, it is demanded that the west should have higher. better, more noble values and practices than anyone else!


But no matter! As long as one has mastered the art of being convinced each way, who cares about paradoxes??

Soren wrote on Nov 10^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

What a marvellous example of the unselfconscious paradox of the modern western progressivist mind: To this group of internationalists, in one breath/thought, the west is repudiated as the oppressing, mendacious, exploitative, greedy and colonising villan of the ages - but in the next breath/fit of pique, it is demanded that the west should have higher. better, more noble values and practices than anyone else! But no matter! As long as one has mastered the art of being convinced each way, who cares about paradoxes??

That's where we put ourselves baby. It's a bugger ain't it?

Uncle wrote on Nov 10^th, 2011 at 7:58pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 10th, 2011 at 7:55pm: What a marvellous example of the unselfconscious paradox of the modern western progressivist mind: To this group of internationalists, in one breath/thought, the west is repudiated as the oppressing, mendacious, exploitative, greedy and colonising villan of the ages - but in the next breath/fit of pique, it is demanded that the west should have higher. better, more noble values and practices than anyone else! But no matter! As long as one has mastered the art of being convinced each way, who cares about paradoxes?? That's where we put ourselves baby. It's a bugger ain't it?

I like that in a progressivist, his acknowledgement of his idiocy and his pride in it.  "We're here, we're thick, whatcha gonna do about it?"


God's marvellous zoo, what?

Soren wrote on Nov 10^th, 2011 at 8:26pm:

I like that in a progressivist, his acknowledgement of his idiocy and his pride in it.  "We're here, we're thick, whatcha gonna do about it?" God's marvellous zoo, what?

No, not my acknowledement of my idiocy and my pride. But acknowledgement of the idiocy and the pride of the society to which I use to acquiesce.

It is still your God's marvellous zoo if you believe in it  ;)

So is the west the worst kind of imperialist regime with oppressive laws, greed, racism, etc - or a superior system of values, laws and practices?

Yes and No.

No and Yes.

Uncle wrote on Nov 10^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

Yes and No. No and Yes.

Just as I thought - progressives make Vicky Pollard look like a coherent, articulate girl who knows her own mind. Yeah but no but yeah but no but .... and mooooving ever foooward like that.

A bit of self doubt is a good thing. Especially when you are wrong.

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2011 at 7:22pm:

Quote: We were never going to my personal opinion on the intent, foreknowledge and capacity of Indonesian minors in this issue. Yet you brought it up, and it is apparently central to your position, and is the only explanation for your claim that this is an issue of justice.

Central to my position is the notion of leadership by example, not by lecturing and hypocrisy. Has been from page 1.

Yours has been to deflect... Still is... And it would be if this went on for 60 pages.

Soren wrote on Nov 10^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

What a marvellous example of the unselfconscious paradox of the modern western progressivist mind: To this group of internationalists, in one breath/thought, the west is repudiated as the oppressing, mendacious, exploitative, greedy and colonising villan of the ages - but in the next breath/fit of pique, it is demanded that the west should have higher. better, more noble values and practices than anyone else!

Don't over-egg it.

While Australia is somewhat in the habit of lecturing other states (particularly Indonesia) that this nation is a paragon of higher. better, more noble values and practices than anyone else, we have (for example) also stood firm against (among many other things) our opposition to the death penalty (nothing ignoble about that) and lived those values here as we would expect (or ask) of others.

In the case of Indonesian minors caught with alleged smugglers, Australia must apply more rigorous vigilance and creditable methods in its process of determining their claims of minority... Not impossible to do, as action groups acting for these minors have proved.

Soren wrote on Nov 10^th, 2011 at 9:29pm:

Uncle wrote on Nov 10th, 2011 at 9:21pm: Yes and No. No and Yes. Just as I thought - progressives make Vicky Pollard look like a coherent, articulate girl who knows her own mind. Yeah but no but yeah but no but .... and mooooving ever foooward like that.

Even when you agree with him he still remains a snapperhead  ::)

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 11^th, 2011 at 6:43am:

Soren wrote on Nov 10th, 2011 at 7:55pm: What a marvellous example of the unselfconscious paradox of the modern western progressivist mind: To this group of internationalists, in one breath/thought, the west is repudiated as the oppressing, mendacious, exploitative, greedy and colonising villan of the ages - but in the next breath/fit of pique, it is demanded that the west should have higher. better, more noble values and practices than anyone else! Don't over-egg it. While Australia is somewhat in the habit of lecturing other states (particularly Indonesia) that this nation is a paragon of higher. better, more noble values and practices than anyone else, we have (for example) also stood firm against (among many other things) our opposition to the death penalty (nothing ignoble about that) and lived those values here as we would expect (or ask) of others. In the case of Indonesian minors caught with alleged smugglers, Australia must apply more rigorous vigilance and creditable methods in its process of determining their claims of minority... Not impossible to do, as action groups acting for these minors have proved.

You can only exopext Australia to take greater care of Indonesian minors if you think Australia is better morally, legally, socially etc than Indonesia.
And if Australia (and the west) is better, then lectutring and reprimanding third worlders who are not in our league is OK.

In other words, if we set a higher standard for ourselves, we must not defer to those ho are happy witheir own lower standards.

This is the paradox, not the particular case of indonesian minors. That's  just an a propos illustration of the progressivist, multicultural paradox. To illustrate the paradox another way:


In the summer of 1881, when King Kalakaua of Hawaii, visiting England, was invited to a dinner party at which the Prince of Wales (that is, the future King Edward VII) was also to be present. The prince insisted that King Kalakaua should take precedence in the seating arrangements over the crown prince of Germany, who was his own brother-in-law and the future Kaiser. To back up his insistence, Bertie offered the following flawless gem of imperial logic: "Either the brute is a king, or he's a common or garden black person; and if the latter, what's he doing here?"

Quote:

Central to my position is the notion of leadership by example, not by lecturing and hypocrisy.

But you have not actually established any genuine hypocrisy, merely repeated yourself. To establish genuine hypocrisy would require you to discuss those subtle issues you are refusing to discuss on the grounds that they would unravel your argument.


Quote:

Yours has been to deflect... Still is...

Refusing to accept those claims that you insist "we have determined" already is not deflection. You do not get to limit the boundaries of the debate and insist we accept all your assumptions before we are allowed to discuss with you. That's just not how it works.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

Quote: Central to my position is the notion of leadership by example, not by lecturing and hypocrisy. But you have not actually established any genuine hypocrisy, merely repeated yourself. To establish genuine hypocrisy would require you to discuss those subtle issues you are refusing to discuss on the grounds that they would unravel your argument.

The hypocrisy is based on our general commitment to safeguarding the rights and special needs of those we consider minors (particularly our own) on the one hand and our misuse of discredited technology to refute the claims of those Indonesians who claim to be minors on the other.

You have tried page after page to deflect the argument back to my personal belief regarding the foreknowledge, intent and agency of Indonesian minors to act in the capacity of adult smugglers.

Quote:

and our misuse of discredited technology

That is not hypocritical. The same technology is used across the board when we don't know how old someone is. You have not suggested a better technology. You are confusing different contexts with different standards. We are merely applying the same standard in a different context.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2011 at 3:53pm:

Quote: and our misuse of discredited technology That is not hypocritical. The same technology is used across the board when we don't know how old someone is. You have not suggested a better technology. You are confusing different contexts with different standards. We are merely applying the same standard in a different context.

A better technology.... Like, say, the one the minors' advocates deployed to confirm their minority? ::)

So naive. If you could just ask someone how old they are and take the answer for granted, they could just ask the aleged minor. Are you expecting the kid's mother to say oh no my son is actually 19 not 15 please put him in jail for a few years he is a bad boy?

Wrist X rays will always be more accurate than asking someone with a motive to lie. An advocate is by definition biased.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2011 at 9:54pm:

So naive. If you could just ask someone how old they are and take the answer for granted, they could just ask the aleged minor. Are you expecting the kid's mother to say oh no my son is actually 19 not 15 please put him in jail for a few years he is a bad boy? Wrist X rays will always be more accurate than asking someone with a motive to lie. An advocate is by definition biased.

So cynical.

Maybe the Australian authorities should refer the case to asylum seeker advocates... They seem to have had a bit of success in confirming the age of minors.

Wrist X rays have been discredited as a means of determining age with the accuracy required... Can easily be out by up to 4 years.

Quote:

They seem to have had a bit of success in confirming the age of minors.

How do you measure this success? By how good the advocates feel about what they have done?

Why would you want a child sitting in prison while 'advocates' go off on their little missions, when a wrist X ray could free them immediately?

freediver wrote on Nov 13^th, 2011 at 12:13pm:

Quote: They seem to have had a bit of success in confirming the age of minors. How do you measure this success? By how good the advocates feel about what they have done?

By the confirmation of their clients claims of minority, of course.


freediver wrote on Nov 13^th, 2011 at 12:13pm:

Why would you want a child sitting in prison while 'advocates' go off on their little missions, when a wrist X ray could free them immediately?

They may as well use a ouija board.

When it comes to Indonesian fishing village minors who have been working hard manual labour for years by the time they're 14, the discredited wrist x-ray is highly likely to produce an inaccurate result.

Quote:

By the confirmation of their clients claims of minority, of course.

How has it been confirmed?


Quote:

When it comes to Indonesian fishing village minors who have been working hard manual labour for years by the time they're 14, the discredited wrist x-ray is highly likely to produce an inaccurate result.

because American kids during the great depression had it easy?

freediver wrote on Nov 13^th, 2011 at 5:08pm:

Quote: By the confirmation of their clients claims of minority, of course. How has it been confirmed? [quote]When it comes to Indonesian fishing village minors who have been working hard manual labour for years by the time they're 14, the discredited wrist x-ray is highly likely to produce an inaccurate result.

because American kids during the great depression had it easy?[/quote]
The only good thing about your descent into asking mindless questions is that it keeps this thread current beyond this forum.

Wrist X-rays for determining exact age is not reliable and has been discredited... It can estimate age to within 4 years. That is a fact.


Quote:

16-year-old Indonesian orphan, who was held at Sydney's Silverwater jail for two years, has became the 33rd minor to have people smuggling charges dropped because the wrist X-ray technique was discredited in court.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/indon-boy-allegedly-sexually-abused-20111113-1ndlr.html

As a matter of interest, I wonder what the indicated age of the 'Bali Boy' would be, if he was subjected to a wrist X-ray!?

Equitist wrote on Nov 13^th, 2011 at 10:41pm:

As a matter of interest, I wonder what the indicated age of the 'Bali Boy' would be, if he was subjected to a wrist X-ray!?

Would be an interesting exercise. Not one that the Australian authorities would like to roll the dice on, I'd bet.


Quote:

We have in a number of instances visited children in jail, we have gone back to their villages, we've established they're children, and we've satisfied the prosecuting authorities that they're children and they have been deported. In just about every case the children have spent at least 12 to 18 months in jail, and in one case a child was convulsing in tears and when we sought to explore with him as to whether or not he had been maltreated sexually in jail. So I believe there's some basis in that instance to believe that that has happened. We know there's a lot of sexual abuse by prisoners against other prisoners in jail, so it comes as no surprise that a child held in an Australian jail is at risk.

http://www.intellasia.net/news/articles/indonesia/111347004.shtml

Quote:

Wrist X-rays for determining exact age is not reliable and has been discredited... It can estimate age to within 4 years. That is a fact.

Yes you are good with facts. Unfortunately you are not so good at making a point with them.


Quote:

We have in a number of instances

So that is it? Success in a 'number' of cases? Is there anything in the current rules that prevents this from happening? Or are you pointlessly arguing for more of the same? Good on facts, bad on making a point?

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2011 at 8:26pm:

Quote: Wrist X-rays for determining exact age is not reliable and has been discredited... It can estimate age to within 4 years. That is a fact. Yes you are good with facts. Unfortunately you are not so good at making a point with them.

You're not so good with facts and unfortunately you're even worse at rising above your own ego.

So you are pointlessly arguing for more of the same?

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2011 at 9:02pm:

So you are pointlessly arguing for more of the same?

No, you're endlessly attempting to deflect for the sake of your own ego's need.

Sorry, I was trying to figure out if you had a point or not.

Are you defending the current arrangements?

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2011 at 7:43pm:

Sorry, I was trying to figure out if you had a point or not. Are you defending the current arrangements?

Help me catch up quickly freediver,  'Current arrangements' about what, and what is your description of them?

:)

Holding captured people smugglers in detention until we can confirm their age. Helian seems to be complaining about the underage people smugglers that get held in detention as a result, yet every time I ask him to suggest alternatives he proposes what we already have.

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2011 at 8:09pm:

Holding captured people smugglers in detention until we can confirm their age. Helian seems to be complaining about the underage people smugglers that get held in detention as a result, yet every time I ask him to suggest alternatives he proposes what we already have.

Oh I see.  You clearly already do understand what Helian is saying even though you pretend otherwise with:


Quote:

Sorry, I was trying to figure out if you had a point or not. Are you defending the current arrangements?

:)

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2011 at 9:02pm:

So you are pointlessly arguing for more of the same?

I think he is arguing that The Australian officials that directly and indirectly deal with these issues and the policy makers behind them are cruel and unintelligent thugs. Thats pretty clear.

They are all wrong and he's right. Like you though, i'd like to find out what he thinks he is right about.

Aussie wrote on Nov 15^th, 2011 at 8:19pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 8:09pm: Holding captured people smugglers in detention until we can confirm their age. Helian seems to be complaining about the underage people smugglers that get held in detention as a result, yet every time I ask him to suggest alternatives he proposes what we already have. Oh I see.  You clearly already do understand what Helian is saying even though you pretend otherwise with: Quote: Sorry, I was trying to figure out if you had a point or not. Are you defending the current arrangements? :)

Let's let Helian say whether I am have it right.

Quote:

Let's let Helian say whether I am have it right.

If s/he can understand it!

:D

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2011 at 8:09pm:

Holding captured people smugglers in detention until we can confirm their age. Helian seems to be complaining about the underage people smugglers that get held in detention as a result, yet every time I ask him to suggest alternatives he proposes what we already have.

You're getting sloppy with your bullsh!t, there "FD".

It ain't just "detention" there, is it "FD".

Unless incarceration in an adult prison for months or years is "detention" to you... And as a result of the use of a discredited technology ...

Looks like the Federal government has been woken up to the greater injustice served against minors than the political need for the Australian white trash guarantee of approval.

13... Lucky for some... Hopefully this thread played its part...


Quote:

Federal Police have been instructed by the Minister for Home Affairs to make more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-15/calls-for-inquiry-into-young-indonesians-in-prisons/3673332?WT.svl=news2

jame-e wrote on Nov 15^th, 2011 at 9:29pm:

i'd like to find out what he thinks he is right about.

Watch out, fella... You're gonna get what you're after.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-15/calls-for-inquiry-into-young-indonesians-in-prisons/3673332?WT.svl=news2

freediver wrote on Nov 15^th, 2011 at 9:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 8:19pm: freediver wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 8:09pm: Holding captured people smugglers in detention until we can confirm their age. Helian seems to be complaining about the underage people smugglers that get held in detention as a result, yet every time I ask him to suggest alternatives he proposes what we already have. Oh I see.  You clearly already do understand what Helian is saying even though you pretend otherwise with: Quote: Sorry, I was trying to figure out if you had a point or not. Are you defending the current arrangements? :) Let's let Helian say whether I am have it right.

FD, you're a bullsh!t artist... But I reckon even you've worked that out.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 6:10am:

jame-e wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 9:29pm: i'd like to find out what he thinks he is right about. Watch out, fella... You're gonna get what you're after. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-15/calls-for-inquiry-into-young-indonesians-in-prisons/3673332?WT.svl=news2

The above article is nothing but bias dreamy dribble. Offering that up says more about your argument than it does about the issue.



Quote:

The Federal Police use a wrist X-ray technique to establish the age of people in detention who claim they are teenagers, but it is widely discredited by doctors and the courts.

Do you have an acceptable alternative?

Do you have any articles that reference the main stakeholder and authority in this area?

Still wondering what you think you are right about?

jame-e wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 8:27pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16th, 2011 at 6:10am: jame-e wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 9:29pm: i'd like to find out what he thinks he is right about. Watch out, fella... You're gonna get what you're after. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-15/calls-for-inquiry-into-young-indonesians-in-prisons/3673332?WT.svl=news2 The above article is nothing but bias dreamy dribble. Offering that up says more about your argument than it does about the issue. Quote: The Federal Police use a wrist X-ray technique to establish the age of people in detention who claim they are teenagers, but it is widely discredited by doctors and the courts. Do you have an acceptable alternative? Do you have any articles that reference the main stakeholder and authority in this area? Still wondering what you think you are right about?

Jame-e, the reason the wrist x ray bone age test that was used is discredited, is that the reference material (comparison x ray used as the 'base-line') are x rays of white children, of northern european backgrounds and from fairly well off families....and they were taken between 1931 and 1942.....

Asians have slightly different bone sizes and growth patterns, and malnutrition can slow, or even stop bone growth and development...

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 8:37pm:

jame-e wrote on Nov 16th, 2011 at 8:27pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16th, 2011 at 6:10am: jame-e wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 9:29pm: i'd like to find out what he thinks he is right about. Watch out, fella... You're gonna get what you're after. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-15/calls-for-inquiry-into-young-indonesians-in-prisons/3673332?WT.svl=news2 The above article is nothing but bias dreamy dribble. Offering that up says more about your argument than it does about the issue. Quote: The Federal Police use a wrist X-ray technique to establish the age of people in detention who claim they are teenagers, but it is widely discredited by doctors and the courts. Do you have an acceptable alternative? Do you have any articles that reference the main stakeholder and authority in this area? Still wondering what you think you are right about? Jame-e, the reason the wrist x ray bone age test that was used is discredited, is that the reference material (comparison x ray used as the 'base-line') are x rays of white children, of northern european backgrounds and from fairly well off families....and they were taken between 1931 and 1942..... Asians have slightly different bone sizes and growth patterns, and malnutrition can slow, or even stop bone growth and development...

So a more accurate 'base-line' is needed. Highly agree.

Will it do away with doubt? no. Will it ultimately change the process? no.

I'm sure the people that actually have to lock these people up and look into their eyes would desire a better system.
A better system is what should be being discussed. Long range tomato throwing is most likely excruciating for those on the ground and totally unproductive in the improvement of the system.

As FD has said, first and foremost these people are criminals. Ultimately i feel for the 18 to 25 year old(s) who are essentially still 'kids', who are victims of the same situation, only they don't get any tomatoes thrown on their behalf. <replace with 'fewer tomatoes'.

jame-e wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 8:27pm:

Quote: The Federal Police use a wrist X-ray technique to establish the age of people in detention who claim they are teenagers, but it is widely discredited by doctors and the courts. Do you have an acceptable alternative?

Here's a start...


Quote:

Federal Police have been instructed by the Minister for Home Affairs to make more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families.

Which is the greater cause? To ensure we don't Incarcerate minors in adult prisons or convict people smugglers regardless of age and circumstance?

jame-e wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 10:21pm:

So a more accurate 'base-line' is needed. Highly agree.

How about "more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families"


jame-e wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 10:21pm:

Will it do away with doubt? no.

What does away with doubt?

Can we minimise doubt? Yes. Like "more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families


jame-e wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 10:21pm:

Will it ultimately change the process? no.

Really? I guess if you're an Indonesian minor, then if "more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families" gets you home as opposed to 2 years detained in an adult prison, then that significantly changes the outcome of a process that maximises certainty, don't you reckon?

jame-e wrote on Nov 16^th, 2011 at 8:27pm:

Still wondering what you think you are right about?

Guess you would have had to have read the thread...

Here...

Quote:

In the case of Indonesian minors caught with alleged smugglers, Australia must apply more rigorous vigilance and creditable methods in its process of determining their claims of minority... Not impossible to do, as action groups acting for these minors have proved.

And here...

Quote:

We should hold ourselves accountable only to the standards we have set for ourselves and those we'd will for all others... The level of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own.

Now starting to be recognised politically...


Quote:

"No young person claiming to be a minor should be incarcerated in an adult prison unless they have been proven to be an adult through a creditable means and due legal process. The use of wrist x-rays has been discredited by medical experts and should not be used to determine a child's age.

and on the ground...


Quote:

Federal Police have been instructed by the Minister for Home Affairs to make more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families.

See, when we (collectively) start to forget our commitment to our own standards (i.e. the same ones about which we remind other nations considered errant), is the day stop giving a sh!t when we commit an offence against them...

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 17^th, 2011 at 6:13am:

Do you have an acceptable alternative?

Here's a start...


Quote:

Federal Police have been instructed by the Minister for Home Affairs to make more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families.

Explain how it is that you can believe that talking to families in Indonesisa will be more accurate than bone scans?
Put yourself in the position of authority and do a risk assessment on your proposal. Remember to forget about your feelings when doing so, and focus more on the matters of process and Australia's future liability if your proposition was implimented. I take it you would desire this information to be the sole means of determining age?


NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 17^th, 2011 at 6:20am:

What does away with doubt? Can we minimise doubt? Yes. Like "more thorough attempts to get information about a person in custody from their homes and families

My birth certificate does away with doubt. If i smuggled people from Indonesia to Australia by bout, arresting authorities would know my age in short time.

I think though, that we can agree to disagree. Am i right to assume that you would support Australia pursuing the families of all foreign criminals who claim to be minors? You think it would give a better indication of age, therefore worth the time and costs.
I don't think the potential outcomes warrant the change.

jame-e wrote on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

Explain how it is that you can believe that talking to families in Indonesisa will be more accurate than bone scans? Put yourself in the position of authority and do a risk assessment on your proposal. Remember to forget about your feelings when doing so, and focus more on the matters of process and Australia's future liability if your proposition was implimented. I take it you would desire this information to be the sole means of determining age?

Firstly, let's amplify the term 'talking to families' to avoid its obvious rhetorical attempt to over-simplify.

'talking to families' includes seeking information from the minor's locale, including school records, other official records (like birth certificates), community leaders and government officials.

Secondly, whether or not 'talking to families' (in its amplified context) is the sole means is not the argument so much as it should be the primary means of verifying detainees' claims of minority. Certainly the wrist x-ray procedure is a discredited means for determining age... To rely on it is to risk subjecting the detainee to a miscarriage of justice.

However, if it is true that, by 18, all humans' wrists have fully developed, then a wrist x-ray that indicates an undeveloped wrist would be useful in confirming that the claimant is a minor. If, however, the wrist x-ray indicates a developed wrist, then (as all experts are advising) we should presume that the claimant may be a minor. In those instances, the Australian authorities need to be more vigilant and apply creditable methods for confirming a claimant's minority.


jame-e wrote on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

My birth certificate does away with doubt.

Does it really? So, birth certificates cannot be forged then?

Nothing does away with doubt.


jame-e wrote on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

I think though, that we can agree to disagree. Am i right to assume that you would support Australia pursuing the families of all foreign criminals who claim to be minors? You think it would give a better indication of age, therefore worth the time and costs. I don't think the potential outcomes warrant the change.

When a just people set standards for themselves in the administration of justice... They are not committing to the cheapest solution, they are committing to the cause of justice. It would be cheaper to do away with courts altogether and rely solely on a prosecutor's gut feel... But would it be justice?

Quote:

Heading off a potentially damaging row, Ms Gillard said yesterday: ''I do have concerns that this is taking too long. ''I will be saying to President Yudhoyono that we do want to work co-operatively with Indonesian authorities, including Indonesian police, to do what we can to speed the determination of people's ages.'' Under the new arrangements, the process for obtaining documents such as birth certificates, school records and the like will be accelerated and streamlined.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/pm-resists-call-to-dump-xray-test-20111119-1nomd.html#ixzz1eBf3IXaR

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 20^th, 2011 at 6:51am:

jame-e wrote on Nov 19th, 2011 at 11:42pm: Explain how it is that you can believe that talking to families in Indonesisa will be more accurate than bone scans? Put yourself in the position of authority and do a risk assessment on your proposal. Remember to forget about your feelings when doing so, and focus more on the matters of process and Australia's future liability if your proposition was implimented. I take it you would desire this information to be the sole means of determining age? Firstly, let's amplify the term 'talking to families' to avoid its obvious rhetorical attempt to over-simplify. 'talking to families' includes seeking information from the minor's locale, including school records, other official records (like birth certificates), community leaders and government officials. Secondly, whether or not 'talking to families' (in its amplified context) is the sole means is not the argument so much as it should be the primary means of verifying detainees' claims of minority. Certainly the wrist x-ray procedure is a discredited means for determining age... To rely on it is to risk subjecting the detainee to a miscarriage of justice. However, if it is true that, by 18, all humans' wrists have fully developed, then a wrist x-ray that indicates an undeveloped wrist would be useful in confirming that the claimant is a minor. If, however, the wrist x-ray indicates a developed wrist, then (as all experts are advising) we should presume that the claimant may be a minor. In those instances, the Australian authorities need to be more vigilant and apply creditable methods for confirming a claimant's minority.

An attempt to over-simplify? By who?
Don't use the phrase in relation to the issue and there will be no need for amplification.


NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 20^th, 2011 at 6:51am:

jame-e wrote on Nov 19th, 2011 at 11:42pm: My birth certificate does away with doubt. Does it really? So, birth certificates cannot be forged then? Nothing does away with doubt.

Yes, you are Philosophically correct. In reality though, my birth certificate does away with doubt. Or the entire debate is meaningless.



jame-e wrote on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 11:42pm:

I think though, that we can agree to disagree. Am i right to assume that you would support Australia pursuing the families of all foreign criminals who claim to be minors? You think it would give a better indication of age, therefore worth the time and costs. I don't think the potential outcomes warrant the change.

When a just people set standards for themselves in the administration of justice... They are not committing to the cheapest solution, they are committing to the cause of justice. It would be cheaper to do away with courts altogether and rely solely on a prosecutor's gut feel... But would it be justice?
[/quote]

You call it justice, i don't. I don't think that it does anyone justice to exert such effort for foreign criminals while citizens, who we know are children, are rotting just as acutely outside our prison walls.
A line has to be drawn somewhere, surly?

Other than the quick moral fix that would be gained by releasing a few 'potential' children from prison, do you see any greater outcomes?
I used 'outcomes', but what i prefer is ramifications. You must see some future liability?