It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship?
Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship.

adelcrow wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship? Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship.

Say no more.

I've always held woman and children first.

but it sounds like the whole situation on board was rather badly handled.

wildkactus wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 6:38pm:

I've always held woman and children first. but it sounds like the whole situation on board was rather badly handled.

Im surprised the media hasnt picked up on it..no one seems to be batting an eye lid when a lady says
" My husband and I were lucky enough to get on a lifeboat while others were being pushed away"
and women are saying
"There was no room left on the lifeboats so my husband and I had to swim for it"

Quote:

children and women were given priority when it came to allocating places on lifeboats, but the system proved to be difficult to implement because many men "weren't accepting this" because they wanted to remain together as a family, prompting "huge confusion".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16561382


Priority should have gone to children, the elderly (there were many, apparently) and those unable to swim.

An ugly example of how people treat each other when in a panic.

Im dumbfounded by the whole thing.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 6:33pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 6:31pm: It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship? Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship. Say no more.

LOL.  I knew someone would say that, but from the (limited) pictures Ive seen, it looked like most of the passengers were asian.

... wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 7:11pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 6:33pm: adelcrow wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 6:31pm: It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship? Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship. Say no more. LOL.  I knew someone would say that, but from the (limited) pictures Ive seen, it looked like most of the passengers were asian.

The interviews I am quoting from were with Europeans and yanks

adelcrow wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 7:18pm:

... wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 7:11pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 6:33pm: adelcrow wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 6:31pm: It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship? Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship. Say no more. LOL.  I knew someone would say that, but from the (limited) pictures Ive seen, it looked like most of the passengers were asian. The interviews I am quoting from were with Europeans and yanks

Correction: most of the passengers were either asian, european or american.  There have been reports of small numbers of australians and antarticans too. 

... wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 7:20pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 7:18pm: ... wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 7:11pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 6:33pm: adelcrow wrote on Jan 15th, 2012 at 6:31pm: It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship? Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship. Say no more. LOL.  I knew someone would say that, but from the (limited) pictures Ive seen, it looked like most of the passengers were asian. The interviews I am quoting from were with Europeans and yanks Correction: most of the passengers were either asian, european or american.  There have been reports of small numbers of australians and antarticans too.

Im going on the interviews I have seen..I am assuming like all cruise ships the passengers were from all over the world.

it doesnt sound as if FIREDRILL was a priority either..its almost April12th.uncanny when you think about it happening in the year 2012.

It sounds like incompetence. The weather conditions were good. There have been ships wrecked in that location since antiquity.  There was an Etruscan ship lost in that very spot (off Giglio) around 600BCE.

Apart from the fact that the evacuation was organised by the passengers, it  sounds like the captain was not the last to leave the ship.

They had minutes from the time they hit rocks to when the boat started listing badly. Sounds doubtful they had much time to organise anything. In those circumstances it wouldn't have taken long before the life boats became impossible to launch. Though why anyone would bother with lifeboats is beyond me - from the photos today it looks like they could just about walk to shore.

muso wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 8:06am:

It sounds like incompetence. The weather conditions were good. There have been ships wrecked in that location since antiquity.  There was an Etruscan ship lost in that very spot (off Giglio) around 600BCE. Apart from the fact that the evacuation was organised by the passengers, it  sounds like the captain was not the last to leave the ship.

It does that. Mind you, if the hazard was well known to locals, why was there not a feckin' great marker on top of it? It's a busy shipping area so a lit cardinal mark wouldn't be too much to expect.

Gist wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 8:12am:

They had minutes from the time they hit rocks to when the boat started listing badly. Sounds doubtful they had much time to organise anything. In those circumstances it wouldn't have taken long before the life boats became impossible to launch. Though why anyone would bother with lifeboats is beyond me - from the photos today it looks like they could just about walk to shore.

I read somewhere it was 400 metres. Anyone who was able to swim the distance but took a place in the lifeboats should feel very ashamed.

Does anyone know how the people died? Was it something to do with the impact or did they drown?

It's the middle of winter over there now.

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 9:33am:

It's the middle of winter over there now.

and pitch dark..the water was freezing..no matter what you think PANIC would have set in I am sure..

the whole thing looks very bad for the captain..and so it should.

Although it's unwise to speculate based on initial media reports,  it does seem the whole evacuation was badly handled.  The financial imperatives that drive merchant ship operations tend to result in poor training and minimal compliance with safety standards. We may be seeing the result of this here.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 8:24am:

Gist wrote on Jan 16th, 2012 at 8:12am: They had minutes from the time they hit rocks to when the boat started listing badly. Sounds doubtful they had much time to organise anything. In those circumstances it wouldn't have taken long before the life boats became impossible to launch. Though why anyone would bother with lifeboats is beyond me - from the photos today it looks like they could just about walk to shore. I read somewhere it was 400 metres. Anyone who was able to swim the distance but took a place in the lifeboats should feel very ashamed. Does anyone know how the people died? Was it something to do with the impact or did they drown?

Initial reports had it that those who died were those who panicked and jumped overboard.  Panic combined with a plunge into icy seas don't do any favours to elderly folks, who tend to make up a large slice of the cruise ship market.

Gist wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

muso wrote on Jan 16th, 2012 at 8:06am: It sounds like incompetence. The weather conditions were good. There have been ships wrecked in that location since antiquity.  There was an Etruscan ship lost in that very spot (off Giglio) around 600BCE. Apart from the fact that the evacuation was organised by the passengers, it  sounds like the captain was not the last to leave the ship. It does that. Mind you, if the hazard was well known to locals, why was there not a feckin' great marker on top of it? It's a busy shipping area so a lit cardinal mark wouldn't be too much to expect.

There is - or at least there was in the 90's :)  I remember seeing it.   Modern ships don't rely on these. They have far more sophisticated navigational equipment, that was obviously ignored.  They are actually dismantling many lighthouses as a result of that.

adelcrow wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship? Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship.

You sound sexist.
Under the notion of equality there shouldn't have been preference for any gender. We're all equal.

muso wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 2:22pm:

Gist wrote on Jan 16th, 2012 at 8:15am: muso wrote on Jan 16th, 2012 at 8:06am: It sounds like incompetence. The weather conditions were good. There have been ships wrecked in that location since antiquity.  There was an Etruscan ship lost in that very spot (off Giglio) around 600BCE. Apart from the fact that the evacuation was organised by the passengers, it  sounds like the captain was not the last to leave the ship. It does that. Mind you, if the hazard was well known to locals, why was there not a feckin' great marker on top of it? It's a busy shipping area so a lit cardinal mark wouldn't be too much to expect. There is - or at least there was in the 90's :)  I remember seeing it.   Modern ships don't rely on these. They have far more sophisticated navigational equipment, that was obviously ignored.  They are actually dismantling many lighthouses as a result of that.

No, not a lighthouse a cardinal mark. A lighthouse tells you roughly where you are and then you have to use some kind of navigation aid/skills to work out a precise position. A cardinal mark is just a pole sitting on top of a hazard. The crew doesn't need to do any navigating other than to avoid the thing. The light flashes a code to tell crews which side is clear water. You'll see quite a few of them around most large harbours.

As for "sophisticated navigational equipment", you'd be talking about GPS. GPS is accurate most of the time. And therein lies the problem because sometimes GPS is downright inaccurate but everyone has become complacent and started relying on the damn things. There was a racing sailboat went aground last year off Wollongong on a very well know island. Both the skipper and navigator were highly experienced and they certainly knew the island was there because the whole point of the race was to go around it. It's thought the cause was GPS error although both skipper and navigator were lost so there is some doubt.

The best, most foolproof inshore navigation method is still an experienced person, an up to date chart and a bearing compass that's been tested for error. But almost nobody does any of that stuff anymore.

Gist wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 3:46pm:

[The best, most foolproof inshore navigation method is still an experienced person, an up to date chart and a bearing compass that's been tested for error. But almost nobody does any of that stuff anymore.

Exactly right. Too many so called navigators rely on advanced technology rather than the basic tools and skills.

I have found that looking where you are going helps.

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 6:33pm:

I have found that looking where you are going helps.

LOL... I would think so!!! another thing is most of these reefs.. rockshelfs call them what you will have been there for centuries..to become the captain of a super Liner I would have at least thought he would have done his apprenticeship!!!!

Was the Captain 'George Costanza' from Seinfeld, who always used to make me laugh at the time.
This rat however couldn't get off his ship fast enough abandoning all to their fate, and the Coast Guard Commander had to actually order the coward back on board from shore to co-ordinate the evacuation.
Disgusting state of affairs, and an embarrassment to the sea faring community.
Some of the passengers stated when they got into the life boat, the cords (wires) snapped.
The safety equipment on passenger ships would have a planned maintenance program associated with them I would have thought, even in Italy.
And having a large amount of Filipino and other cheap laboring non Italian speaking crew aboard doesn't help the communication system in an emergency like this.
This truely was a disaster waiting to happen.

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 7:25am:

Was the Captain 'George Costanza' from Seinfeld, who always used to make me laugh at the time. This rat however couldn't get off his ship fast enough abandoning all to their fate, and the Coast Guard Commander had to actually order the coward back on board from shore to co-ordinate the evacuation. Disgusting state of affairs, and an embarrassment to the sea faring community. Some of the passengers stated when they got into the life boat, the cords (wires) snapped. The safety equipment on passenger ships would have a planned maintenance program associated with them I would have thought, even in Italy. And having a large amount of Filipino and other cheap laboring non Italian speaking crew aboard doesn't help the communication system in an emergency like this. This truely was a disaster waiting to happen.

Welcome to the modern global village. I think you'd find pretty much all cruise liners work that way. We did a trip just a couple of years ago on a ship owned by a US cruise line although it was flagged in Nassau. The captain was Norwegian, officers were a mixed bag including at least one Brit. The deck crew mostly looked Filipino. The house maids were also Filipino. Waitstaff from India. They source them from wherever is cheapest to keep costs down.

Gist wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 10:19am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jan 18th, 2012 at 7:25am: Was the Captain 'George Costanza' from Seinfeld, who always used to make me laugh at the time. This rat however couldn't get off his ship fast enough abandoning all to their fate, and the Coast Guard Commander had to actually order the coward back on board from shore to co-ordinate the evacuation. Disgusting state of affairs, and an embarrassment to the sea faring community. Some of the passengers stated when they got into the life boat, the cords (wires) snapped. The safety equipment on passenger ships would have a planned maintenance program associated with them I would have thought, even in Italy. And having a large amount of Filipino and other cheap laboring non Italian speaking crew aboard doesn't help the communication system in an emergency like this. This truely was a disaster waiting to happen. Welcome to the modern global village. I think you'd find pretty much all cruise liners work that way. We did a trip just a couple of years ago on a ship owned by a US cruise line although it was flagged in Nassau. The captain was Norwegian, officers were a mixed bag including at least one Brit. The deck crew mostly looked Filipino. The house maids were also Filipino. Waitstaff from India. They source them from wherever is cheapest to keep costs down.

I thought so Gist.
I'm sure it works fine, right up until there is an emergency.
Personally speaking, I sailed with the Grey Funnel Line for twenty years and language was no barrier.
It should be a requirement though that the cruise liner crew all have the ability to understand and speak the one lingo.

adelcrow wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship.

Have you got proof of that or are you just making it up?

Also, women and children first is an outdated concept.  I see no reason why a fit and healthy 19 year old woman should be able to get off a sinking ship before an elderly, sick or disabled man.

cods wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 6:02am:

it doesnt sound as if FIREDRILL was a priority either..its almost April12th.uncanny when you think about it happening in the year 2012.

What surprised me is that the Costa Concordia is actually larger than the Titanic which was, of course, the largest cruise ship in the world 100 years ago.

However, the Costa Concordia is only half the size of the present largest cruise ship in the world, which I think is called the Empress of the Seas.

Gist wrote on Jan 16^th, 2012 at 3:46pm:

As for "sophisticated navigational equipment", you'd be talking about GPS.

Well, ships like that use integrated navigation nowadays according to my brother who has hands on experience with it. That includes GPS, radar, electronic charts and sonar.

It's all displayed on an integrated electronic computer navigation system. You can virtually run them on "autopilot".

Cofgod wrote on Jan 19^th, 2012 at 5:07am:

cods wrote on Jan 16th, 2012 at 6:02am: it doesnt sound as if FIREDRILL was a priority either..its almost April12th.uncanny when you think about it happening in the year 2012. What surprised me is that the Costa Concordia is actually larger than the Titanic which was, of course, the largest cruise ship in the world 100 years ago. However, the Costa Concordia is only half the size of the present largest cruise ship in the world, which I think is called the Empress of the Seas.

from what I have read FIREDRILL was not done on the ship at all..disgraceful...


and the ship was far to close to the coast line at any rate.,.. by all accounts a request from one of the crew....WHAT THE!!!!.. 400 mtrs from land was a dead give away... I would say the fact it was so close to land is what saved more deaths...had the ship not stuck on the reef..god knows what the consequences would have been

Sounds like autopilot would have been a better option here.

Don't know how true it is but I've heard that the ship was further out when it struck rocks. On it becoming clear that the ship was taking water fast, he beached it to prevent a total sinking and greater loss of life.

For anyone interested, here's the track from the AIS (ship's identification radio signal). The AIS reports the ships position which it gets from a GPS unit so should be reasonably accurate... except that the track shown looks like it is well away from land. Could be an interesting inquest hearing.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=247158500&zoom=10&olddate=1/13/2012%209:02:00%20PM

adelcrow wrote on Jan 15^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

It is just me but is anyone else disturbed that men were on the life boats while women were being pushed away because there was no room left during the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship? Maybe Im a little old fashioned but it seems like a case of extreme cowardice by many of the men on that ship.

I agree; I thought the rule in such cases, is chidren,women, the elderly first and then the men.
Yet in this day of equal opportunity that would be gender discrimiation.
With a life jacket, anyone should have been able to float, although the water was rather cold.
The Captain did not act very duty-bound nor gentlemanly.
I recall the ship Scaubrin sinking in the late fifties, with 1500 migrants on board, mainly Greek, from Europe to Australia, with the  ship been manned, by a Swedisch Captain and Officers and an otherwise  German crew.
The Captain gave order to the crew to act efficiently, observing the rule the sea, and if it had to be, to use reasonable force, and they only had a loss of one life, a person dying from a heart attack.
Was there a big stink and a lot of complaints by the passengers in Australia, that the crew acted too rough on some male passengers.
The Captain just simply replied, we lost on passenger, due to a heart attack, was that not good enough, and the Captain was the last one to leave the sinking ship.

The captain is regarded as a total embarrassment in Italy. The latest craze is teeshirts with "Vado a bordo, Cazzo!"
(FFS Get on board!).

The words came from the Livorno Port Authority director, Gregorio De Falco.

http://shop.lipsiadesign.com/it/prodotto/97742-vada-a-bordo-cazzo-t-shirt-tsrtmncl-vadaabordo-t-shirt-del-giorno

http://store.lipsiasoft.com/uploads/107122_vadaabordocazzo.jpg

muso wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 7:42am:

The captain is regarded as a total embarrassment in Italy. The latest craze is teeshirts with "Vado a bordo, Cazzo!" (FFS Get on board!). The words came from the Livorno Port Authority director, Gregorio De Falco. http://shop.lipsiadesign.com/it/prodotto/97742-vada-a-bordo-cazzo-t-shirt-tsrtmncl-vadaabordo-t-shirt-del-giorno http://store.lipsiasoft.com/uploads/107122_vadaabordocazzo.jpg

Nice T- shirt.
That didn't take long, it even beat the usual unfunny jokes that come out after a disaster.

didnt the captain "fall" into a lifeboat??

muso wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 7:42am:

The captain is regarded as a total embarrassment in Italy. The latest craze is teeshirts with "Vado a bordo, Cazzo!" (FFS Get on board!). The words came from the Livorno Port Authority director, Gregorio De Falco.

Funnily enough, I got a couple of posts removed by the mods for featuring a word not unlike the one on that t-shirt. The difference mine wasn't actually a naughty word and this one is... and mine was in English. Go figure.  :)

The conversation (pretty one-sided) between the coast guard and the captain was interesting. Trouble was, the release that I found had an English translation voiceover so I couldn't hear most of what they were saying. If anyone comes across an unedited Italian version, could you please let me know?

Does anyone else here find it amazing that that particular conversation was released to the media? For what purpose?

Does anyone else here find it amazing that that particular conversation was released to the media? For what purpose?



Because that's what the dopey Italians do. You should know that.

Gist wrote on Jan 20^th, 2012 at 9:53am:

muso wrote on Jan 20th, 2012 at 7:42am: The captain is regarded as a total embarrassment in Italy. The latest craze is teeshirts with "Vado a bordo, Cazzo!" (FFS Get on board!). The words came from the Livorno Port Authority director, Gregorio De Falco. Funnily enough, I got a couple of posts removed by the mods for featuring a word not unlike the one on that t-shirt. The difference mine wasn't actually a naughty word and this one is... and mine was in English. Go figure.  :) The conversation (pretty one-sided) between the coast guard and the captain was interesting. Trouble was, the release that I found had an English translation voiceover so I couldn't hear most of what they were saying. If anyone comes across an unedited Italian version, could you please let me know? Does anyone else here find it amazing that that particular conversation was released to the media? For what purpose?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX_08zcCmx8&feature=related

This is it unedited. The subtitles are pretty accurate.

It becomes obvious from his tone that De Falco soon realises that he's talking to a dweeb.

Why was it released? Well it was pretty disgraceful behaviour. I think De Falco was the one with backbone. He handled the rescue impeccably. Also you have to realise that in some ways Italian society is very casual.

For example when I lost my baggage at Rome Airport once, I got a note to allow me back into the baggage area later to collect it. When I returned, there was a woman at the office there who just waved me through. The Carabinieri officer then came in and said to the woman in a mock serious tone "Hey! - that's my job. You can't give clearance like that." Then he looked at my pass and waved me through. It was an affected air of authority though. Italians can joke about most things, but when it comes to serious matters, most can get their act together very quickly and they are incredibly supportive of anybody in a spot of trouble.  I have a lot of respect for them. They are more like Aussies (She'll be right mate) than most other Europeans, and right now at least, Aussies are regarded as really cool in Italy.

Thanks muso. On a first listening I'd have to say I wasn't all that impressed with how De Falco handled the conversation. But I'll have to listen to it again.