What counts as a witness in Islam?

Would a medical examiner count?

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 11:57am:

Would a medical examiner count?

That might depend on his numeracy skills....

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 11:57am:

What counts as a witness in Islam? Would a medical examiner count?

There are different types of trials, which have different burdens for proof.

A conviction for adultery requires 4 witnesses.

One of the aims of the law is to prevent adultery and fornication from becoming widespread and open in society.

In the time of the great scholar, Ibn Taymiyyah, it was noted that in the centuries between his time (died 1328 CE) and Prophet Muhammed's time (610 CE) nobody had ever been convicted and stoned to death for adultery based on the evidence of four witnesses.
It is thought that this remains true until today.

Why?

The testimony of the 4 witnesses requires them to say "I saw his penis in her vagina". There is no alternative to that. If they say: “We saw him on top of her and they were naked”, that is not acceptable. Even if they say “We saw him doing with her what a man does with his wife,” that is not sufficient as testimony. They must say “We bear witness that his penis was in her vagina.”


In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses!


In other kinds of trial, there are other standards for evidence. For example, contract verification requires two witnesses.

Can the court apply a lesser punishment if the standard of evidence is lower?

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 12:45pm:

Can the court apply a lesser punishment if the standard of evidence is lower?

For adultery?

yes

falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses!

SO on what ground have adulterers been stoned to death then?

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

yes

It is not permissable to make accusations without the four witnesses.

Making an accusation without the four witnesses is a punishable offence.

“And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious ones. Except those who afterwards repent and do righteous deeds, for verily, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ”

[Quran, an-Noor v.4-5]

So you cannot even accuse a woman of sleeping around, even if everyone knows it and she is spreading diseases?

Does chaste mean virgin? Would this have to be established for that clause to apply?

Soren wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:31pm:

falah wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 12:42pm: In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses! SO on what ground have adulterers been stoned to death then?

Usually confession. Stoning is an expiation for sin. Some people cannot bear the guilt of adultery, and wish for their sin to be expiated by stoning.


If a person confesses against themselves 4 times before a judge, then the punishment becomes mandatory.

There are exceptions to this rule. For example, if a confessor is found to be insane he/she is not to be punished.



Quote:

Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that a man from the Aslam tribe came to Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and said to him, "I have committed adultery." Abu Bakr said to him, "Have you mentioned this to anyone else?" He said, "No." Abu Bakr said to him, "Then cover it up with the veil of God. God accepts tawba from his servants." His self was still unsettled, so he went to Umar ibn al-Khattab. He told him the same as he had said to Abu Bakr, and Umar told him the same as Abu Bakr had said to him. His self was still not settled so he went to the Messenger of God (Muhammmed, God's blessings & peace upon him) and said to him, "I have committed adultery," insistently. The Messenger of God turned away from him three times. Each time the Messenger of God turned away from him until it became too much. The Messenger of God questioned his family, "Does he have an illness which affects his mind, or is he mad?" They said, "Messenger of God, (we swear) by God, he is well." The Messenger of God, said, "Unmarried or married?" They said, "Married, O Messenger of God." The Messenger of God then gave the order and he was stoned.

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:50pm:

So you cannot even accuse a woman of sleeping around, even if everyone knows it and she is spreading diseases? Does chaste mean virgin? Would this have to be established for that clause to apply?

Everyone woman is presumed chaste until proven otherwise. In Islam, we have this idea that people are innocent until proven guilty.

I am curious Freeliar, how would it come that you would personally know whether or not a woman is spreading disease? Would you force her to take a medical test? Sounds like what the Nazis forced the brides of SS officers to undergo.

falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Soren wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:31pm: falah wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 12:42pm: In 1400 years nobody we do not know of any case that where a person has ever been convicted and stoned for adultery based on the evidence of witnesses! SO on what ground have adulterers been stoned to death then? Usually confession. Stoning is an expiation for sin. Some people cannot bear the guilt of adultery, and wish for their sin to be expiated by stoning. If a person confesses against themselves 4 times before a judge, then the punishment becomes mandatory. There are exceptions to this rule. For example, if a confessor is found to be insane he/she is not to be punished.

Time has stood still for you for 1400 years. Your mind is set in a 7th century mould and you have no chance of overcoming this affliction since it is something you have sought out and are cultivating as the main task of your existence.
How dreadful, to be like you.

Can both parties be sentenced based on the confession of one?

If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around.

If all 3 died of AIDS, people would know she had been spreading diseases.

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

Can both parties be sentenced based on the confession of one?

No


freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around.

They would know?



Quote:

Black parents... white baby http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-tlhf56Ka7g/TEXsU8hf6fI/AAAAAAAAAEI/grN9lc1DLyU/s1600/654104-nmachi-ihegboro.jpg http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3060907/Black-parents-give-birth-to-white-baby.html

Quote:

The black parents shocked when their son was born white with blond hair http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/16/article-1387468-0C156FBA00000578-128_468x470.jpg http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1387468/Black-couple-Francis-Arlette-Tshibangu-white-baby-blond-hair.html

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If all 3 died of AIDS, people would know she had been spreading diseases.

Doesn't really prove anything. They could have been drug users.

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around.

Sometimes white parents can have black children. Sometimes people have unknown black ancestry like this South African woman born to white parents:


The black woman - with white parents

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/mar/17/features11.g2


1955
http://api.ning.com/files/g92Ux971YI3SISpCBLDcOUd4iXnfW*pRnBZavZ5KHM4a9j-wFGUPGa2aRwKZYuIU7LFMU9payQj6MMn5zm1ikorEH5*zgZ-v/PH2007052501036.jpg?width=721

2009
http://api.ning.com/files/G9fVMgX2dyeUlAdlAXdGLGrhAcjAcprrRGKOMo*m1AChOMHbJ92aaS6vN1tEdgTqIBkGDYSIgOOTKqLWyR1yyr6OczECW3yk/sandra.jpg






Quote:

Her parents, Abraham and Sannie Laing, were white  -  indeed, as members of the Nationalist Party, they were fervent supporters of South Africa's apartheid regime  -  and yet their daughter undeniably looked black, with her brown skin and tightly curled hair. Her African features were almost certainly a throwback to an unknown ancestor whose DNA, having lain dormant for generations, had emerged in her. But when Sandra was a schoolgirl, this aspect of genetics was unknown and there was no such thing as a DNA test... ...For Abraham, the idea that his wife might have consorted with a black man, making him the most humiliated of cuckolds, was unthinkable (under South Africa's Immorality Acts, it was illegal to have sex with, or even kiss, a member of another race). Unpleasant, but far more bearable was the suggestion that he or his wife had a non-white branch near the root of their family tree. 'If her appearance is due to some "coloured blood" in either of us, then it must be very far back among our forebears, and neither of us is aware of it,' he declared. Such an argument turns out to be entirely conceivable. According to research published in the early Seventies, about 8 per cent of the genes of any modern Afrikaner are non-white. More recent studies put the number slightly higher, at 11 per cent. Of the 25,000 or so genes that determine inheritable characteristics, only a tiny fraction have to do with skin colour, hair texture and other visible markers of race. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1093674/The-tragic-story-white-girl-born-black-tore-family-apart.html

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around.

Quote:

Abu Huraira narrated that: "A bedouin came to God's Apostle (Muhammed, God's peace & blessings on him) and said, "My wife has delivered a black boy, and I suspect that he is not my child." God's Apostle said to him, "Have you got camels?" The bedouin said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "What color are they?" The bedouin said, "They are red." The Prophet said, "Are any of them Grey?" He said, "There are Grey ones among them." The Prophet said, "Whence do you think this color came to them?" The bedouin said, "O God's Apostle! It resulted from hereditary disposition." The Prophet said, "And this (i.e., your child) has inherited his color from his ancestors." The Prophet did not allow him to deny his paternity of the child. [Saheeh al-Bukhari]

falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 5:25pm:

freediver wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 4:24pm: Can both parties be sentenced based on the confession of one? No freediver wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 4:24pm: If a white woman married to a white man gave birth to a black baby who looked remarkably like the gardener, people would know she had been sleeping around. They would know? Quote: Black parents... white baby http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-tlhf56Ka7g/TEXsU8hf6fI/AAAAAAAAAEI/grN9lc1DLyU/s1600/654104-nmachi-ihegboro.jpg http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3060907/Black-parents-give-birth-to-white-baby.html [quote]The black parents shocked when their son was born white with blond hair http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/16/article-1387468-0C156FBA00000578-128_468x470.jpg http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1387468/Black-couple-Francis-Arlette-Tshibangu-white-baby-blond-hair.html

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 4:24pm:

If all 3 died of AIDS, people would know she had been spreading diseases.

Doesn't really prove anything. They could have been drug users.
[/quote]


Blacks can have albino babies, too.

falah wrote on May 4^th, 2012 at 2:38pm:

freediver wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:18pm: yes It is not permissable to make accusations without the four witnesses. Making an accusation without the four witnesses is a punishable offence. “And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious ones. Except those who afterwards repent and do righteous deeds, for verily, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ” [Quran, an-Noor v.4-5]

So a woman needs 4 reliable male witnesses who saw the penis enter the vagina to report being raped.

An Australian woman was raped in the UAE, she reported it without having 4 witnesses so she was jailed.

Islamic law punishes the rape victim if she cannot locate 4 witness to this rape.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/jailed-rape-victim-to-sue-commonwealth-20110605-1fnc6.html

Google "uae rape victim jailed"

Do you think it is a bit harsh jailing the rape victim falah?

Baronvonrort wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 5:19pm:

falah wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:38pm: freediver wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:18pm: yes It is not permissable to make accusations without the four witnesses. Making an accusation without the four witnesses is a punishable offence. “And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious ones. Except those who afterwards repent and do righteous deeds, for verily, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ” [Quran, an-Noor v.4-5] So a woman needs 4 reliable male witnesses who saw the penis enter the vagina to report being raped. An Australian woman was raped in the UAE, she reported it without having 4 witnesses so she was jailed. Islamic law punishes the rape victim if she cannot locate 4 witness to this rape.

Why does this forum attract so many liars? It is quite odd.

4 witnesses are required to convict a person for adultery, and as far as we know this has never happened.

Rape is a totally different crime to adultery, and 4 witnesses are not needed to convict a person for rape.

A rapist can be convicted on the testimony of the victim alone.

falah wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 6:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 7th, 2012 at 5:19pm: falah wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:38pm: freediver wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:18pm: yes It is not permissable to make accusations without the four witnesses. Making an accusation without the four witnesses is a punishable offence. “And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious ones. Except those who afterwards repent and do righteous deeds, for verily, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ” [Quran, an-Noor v.4-5] So a woman needs 4 reliable male witnesses who saw the penis enter the vagina to report being raped. An Australian woman was raped in the UAE, she reported it without having 4 witnesses so she was jailed. Islamic law punishes the rape victim if she cannot locate 4 witness to this rape. Why does this forum attract so many liars? It is quite odd. 4 witnesses are required to convict a person for adultery, and as far as we know this has never happened.

Yes it must be difficult to find 4 reliable people who saw the penis enter the vagina do you think that could have something to do with the conviction rate?

If you are talking adultery do you mean Zina (unlawful sexual intercourse)?
The good sheikh says a pregnant woman without a husband or master is proof of zina so what is this crap you are going on about?

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/88051/zina

falah wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 6:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 7th, 2012 at 5:19pm: falah wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:38pm: freediver wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:18pm: yes It is not permissable to make accusations without the four witnesses. Making an accusation without the four witnesses is a punishable offence. “And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious ones. Except those who afterwards repent and do righteous deeds, for verily, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ” [Quran, an-Noor v.4-5] So a woman needs 4 reliable male witnesses who saw the penis enter the vagina to report being raped. An Australian woman was raped in the UAE, she reported it without having 4 witnesses so she was jailed. Islamic law punishes the rape victim if she cannot locate 4 witness to this rape. Why does this forum attract so many liars? It is quite odd. 4 witnesses are required to convict a person for adultery, and as far as we know this has never happened. Rape is a totally different crime to adultery, and 4 witnesses are not needed to convict a person for rape. A rapist can be convicted on the testimony of the victim alone.

Sudanese female minor sentenced to death by stoning
Monday, 21 May 2012 17:51

A Sudanese judge, Sami Ibrahim Shabo sentenced to death by stoning a young woman accused of committing adultery.

Intisar Sharif Abdalla, believed to be between 15 and 17 years of age (although prison authorities claim she is 20) was sentenced to death in accordance with Article 146 of the Sudanese criminal law albeit without legal representation.

The judgment was made on May 13, 2012 after just one hearing and came after an “admission of guilt” plea following torture and brutal beatings by Sharif’s brother who instigated the case. Her co-accused however remains un-convicted and walks freely.

This absurd decision demonstrates both the inhumane and brutal sanctioning to death for committing sexual relations outside of marriage, but furthermore calls into questions the legal institutions and frameworks applied, especially as the “admission of guilt” was made under duress.

Sharif is accused of having a relationship outside wedlock and getting impregnated by a man that is not legally her husband.  Initially, she and the man whom she is co-accused with both denied the charges.

Her lawyer, only able to access her after the judgment was made, understands that following her initial denial she was beaten up and tortured repeatedly by her brother forcing her to confess to committing adultery. With the ‘coerced’ confession, Judge Sami Ibrahim Shabo of Ombada General Criminal Court, Khartoum state, sentenced her to stoning after just one court session.

Sharif is understood to be deeply traumatized and is without access to any suitable psychosocial support. Her newly born child is also with her in prison. Ultimately, some observers believe the judgment demonstrates the scale of discrimination against women and girls in Sudan and the biased judgments made against them for acts which involves two sexes – a man and woman. It is incredulous that the man with whom she has been accused is able to walk free showing explicitly the strong anti-women sentiment and harsh management of family disputes that exist within both the Sudanese judicial system and society.

Strategic Initiative for Women in the Horn of Africa (SIHA) is calling on the Sudan Ministry of Justice and other relevant Sudanese government bodies to investigate this case thoroughly and possibly overturn the judgment.

http://www.observer.ug/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18837:sudanese-female-minor-sentenced-to-death-by-stoning&catid=74:breakingnews&Itemid=117



You are barbarians, no question about it. This is sharia, not some quaint pre-Islamic cultural practice.

Ah, so that's how it works. Thanks Soren. I was wondering how the muslims got through several centuries without ever needing the 4 witnesses.

Soren wrote on Jun 1^st, 2012 at 11:06am:

falah wrote on May 7th, 2012 at 6:21pm: Baronvonrort wrote on May 7th, 2012 at 5:19pm: falah wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:38pm: freediver wrote on May 4th, 2012 at 2:18pm: yes It is not permissable to make accusations without the four witnesses. Making an accusation without the four witnesses is a punishable offence. “And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious ones. Except those who afterwards repent and do righteous deeds, for verily, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ” [Quran, an-Noor v.4-5] So a woman needs 4 reliable male witnesses who saw the penis enter the vagina to report being raped. An Australian woman was raped in the UAE, she reported it without having 4 witnesses so she was jailed. Islamic law punishes the rape victim if she cannot locate 4 witness to this rape. Why does this forum attract so many liars? It is quite odd. 4 witnesses are required to convict a person for adultery, and as far as we know this has never happened. Rape is a totally different crime to adultery, and 4 witnesses are not needed to convict a person for rape. A rapist can be convicted on the testimony of the victim alone. Sudanese female minor sentenced to death by stoning Monday, 21 May 2012 17:51 A Sudanese judge, Sami Ibrahim Shabo sentenced to death by stoning a young woman accused of committing adultery. Intisar Sharif Abdalla, believed to be between 15 and 17 years of age (although prison authorities claim she is 20) was sentenced to death in accordance with Article 146 of the Sudanese criminal law albeit without legal representation. The judgment was made on May 13, 2012 after just one hearing and came after an “admission of guilt” plea following torture and brutal beatings by Sharif’s brother who instigated the case. Her co-accused however remains un-convicted and walks freely. This absurd decision demonstrates both the inhumane and brutal sanctioning to death for committing sexual relations outside of marriage, but furthermore calls into questions the legal institutions and frameworks applied, especially as the “admission of guilt” was made under duress. Sharif is accused of having a relationship outside wedlock and getting impregnated by a man that is not legally her husband.  Initially, she and the man whom she is co-accused with both denied the charges. Her lawyer, only able to access her after the judgment was made, understands that following her initial denial she was beaten up and tortured repeatedly by her brother forcing her to confess to committing adultery. With the ‘coerced’ confession, Judge Sami Ibrahim Shabo of Ombada General Criminal Court, Khartoum state, sentenced her to stoning after just one court session. Sharif is understood to be deeply traumatized and is without access to any suitable psychosocial support. Her newly born child is also with her in prison. Ultimately, some observers believe the judgment demonstrates the scale of discrimination against women and girls in Sudan and the biased judgments made against them for acts which involves two sexes – a man and woman. It is incredulous that the man with whom she has been accused is able to walk free showing explicitly the strong anti-women sentiment and harsh management of family disputes that exist within both the Sudanese judicial system and society. Strategic Initiative for Women in the Horn of Africa (SIHA) is calling on the Sudan Ministry of Justice and other relevant Sudanese government bodies to investigate this case thoroughly and possibly overturn the judgment. http://www.observer.ug/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18837:sudanese-female-minor-sentenced-to-death-by-stoning&catid=74:breakingnews&Itemid=117 You are barbarians, no question about it. This is sharia, not some quaint pre-Islamic cultural practice.

Where is SOB,         ...condemning this incident ???


.....a deafening silence follows.

Sudan is not run according to Islamic law. If the article is correct, then it proves the point because confessions made under coercion are not accepted, and stoning cannot be applied to unmarried people.

Islamic law was promised in the 1990's, but the military dictators reneged. They put Islamic leaders in prison and expelled foreign Muslims like Osama bin Laden.

Sudan's government is not run by Islamic law and th following article is about how Muslims are unhappy with the military dictatorship ruling the country:

http://allafrica.com/stories/201202290514.html

Quote:

They put Islamic leaders in prison and expelled foreign Muslims like Osama bin Laden

;D