falah wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 11:05am:

Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines

Gawd help them - as if they didn't have enough ballast of their own to carry.

Soren wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 12:27pm:

falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:05am: Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines Gawd help them - as if they didn't have enough ballast of their own to carry.

The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia.

To be fair, Muslims in general are as mad as a bag of hamsters.

A PROMINENT Muslim youth leader, who preaches the perils of crime to his community, has been charged with possessing more than $1.5 million worth of cocaine.
Police allege 36-year-old Fadi Abdul-Rahman, who featured in Kevin Rudd's 2020 Summit in 2008 and has been a fighter for justice in western Sydney, was part of a commercial cocaine syndicate that was caught with 5kg of the drug hidden in a chess set.

...


He became a prominent public figure for his work in steering Lebanese youth away from a life of crime and his work was the subject of SBS and ABC TV documentaries.



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/muslim-youth-leaders-15m-cocaine-charges/story-e6freuy9-1226367805808


Soooooo Islamophobic of the police to notice and Murdoch to report. A conspiracy.

falah wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:27pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:05am: Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines Gawd help them - as if they didn't have enough ballast of their own to carry. The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia.

And did they pass your thesis?

an islamic camaleer shares his religous customs with Aussies :-





Sprintcyclist wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 10:03am:

Ahah - found it !!!! Quote: The Battle of Broken Hill otherwise known as the Broken Hill Massacre, was a fatal incident which took place near Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia on 1 January 1915. Two Muslim men shot dead four people and wounded seven more, before being killed by police and military officers. While the attack was politically and religiously inspired, as declared by the perpetrators in notes, the men were not members of any sanctioned armed force. The two men were later identified as being Muslims from the British colony of India, modern day Pakistan.[1][2] The attackers were both former camel-drivers working at Broken Hill. They were Badsha Mahommed Gool (born approx 1874[3]), an ice-cream vendor, and Mullah Abdullah (born approx 1854[4]), a local imam and halal butcher. Gool's ice-cream cart was well known in town and was used to transport the men to the attack site.[1][5] They also fashioned a home-made Ottoman flag which they flew. There appears to have been little effort made at hiding their identities. Abdullah had arrived in Broken Hill around 1898 and worked as a camel driver, before becoming a mullah and slaughtering animals according to halal Islamic rites. Several days before the killings Adbullah was convicted by Chief Sanitary Inspector Brosnan for slaughtering sheep on premises not licensed for slaughtering. It was not his first charge.[6] Considering the slaughter-house regulators believed that the halal method of slaughter was inhumane, there was little scope for Abdullah to legally prepare such meat for the Muslim community. In addition, he had ceased wearing his turban years before, "since the day some larrikin threw stones at me, and I did not like it".[5] Gool lived next door to Mullah Adbullah. Gool was a member of the Afridi, a Pashtun clan, from Afghanistan. He claimed he had been in the Turkish Army several times and was believed to regularly smoke strong marijuana.[7] Police Constable Mills later conjectured that Gool had used Abdullah's concerns over the fine as leverage to convince him to take part in the killings. [edit] Picnic train targetedEach New Year's Day the local lodge of the Manchester Unity Order of Oddfellows held a picnic at Silverton. The train from Broken Hill to Silverton was crowded with 1200 picnickers on 40 open ore trucks. Three kilometres out of town, Gool and Abdullah positioned themselves on an embankment located about 30 metres from the tracks. As the train passed they opened fire with two rifles, discharging 20 to 30 shots. The picnickers initially thought that the shots were being discharged in honour of the train's passing, but once their companions started falling, the reality sank in. Alma Cowie, aged 17 died instantly. William John Shaw, a foreman in the Sanitary Department, was killed on the train and his daughter Lucy Shaw was injured. Six other people on the train were injured: Mary Kavanagh, George Stokes, Thomas Campbell, Alma Crocker, Rose Crabb and Constable Robert Mills.[8] The railway guard on the train was "Tiger" Dick (Eric Edward) Nyholm, soon to be a father of six children, including the late Prof Sir Ronald Nyholm,[9] also of Broken Hill. Nyholm was a renowned marksman and proved instrumental in protecting the train's passengers from further injury. Police response Part of the rocky outcrop where the final battle took place.Gool and Mulla made their way from the train towards the West Camel camp where they lived. On the way they killed Alfred E. Millard who had taken shelter in his hut. By this time the train had pulled over at a siding and the police were telephoned. The police contacted Lieutenant Resch at the local army base who despatched his men. When police encountered Gool and Abdullah near the Cable Hotel, the pair shot and wounded Constable Mills. Gool and Abdullah then took shelter within a white quartz outcrop, which provided good cover. A 90-minute gun battle followed, during which armed members of the public arrived to join the police and military. By the end of the battle very little shooting came from the pair and most of it was off target, leading Constable Ward to conclude that Mullah Abdullah was already dead and Gool was wounded. James Craig, a 69-year-old occupant of a house behind the Cable Hotel, resisted his daughter's warning about chopping wood during a gun battle and was hit by a stray bullet and killed. He was the fourth to die. At "one o'clock a rush took place to the Turks' stronghold".[8] An eyewitness later stated that Gool had stood with a white rag tied to his rifle but was cut down by gunfire. He was found with 16 wounds. The mob would not allow Abdullah's body to be taken away in the ambulance. Later that day both bodies were disposed of in secret by the police. AftermathThe attackers left notes connecting their actions to the hostilities between the Ottoman and British Empires, which had been officially declared in October 1914. Believing he would be killed, Gool Mahomed left a letter in his waist-belt which stated that he was a subject of the Ottoman Sultan and that, "I must kill you and give my life for my faith, Allāhu Akbar."Mullah Abdullah said in his last letter that he was dying for his faith and in obedience to the order of the Sultan, "but owing to my grudge against Chief Sanitary Inspector Brosnan it was my intention to kill him first."[10] Apart from the fact that the police were forced to stop a mob from marching on an Afghan camp the following night, there was no violence against the Muslim community afterwards. Instead, the actions were seen as representative of 'enemy aliens' and the Germans in the area were the focus of violence. Believing the Germans had agitated the assailants to attack, the local German Club was burnt to ground, the angry mob cutting the hoses of the firemen who came to fight the flames.[11][10] The next day the mines of Broken Hill fired all employees deemed 'enemy aliens' under the 1914 Commonwealth War Precautions Act. Six Austrians, four Germans and one Turk were ordered out of town by the public. Shortly after all 'enemy aliens' in Australia were interned for the duration of the war.[11] The Silverton Tramway Company refunded in full the fares for the picnic train and the money was used to launch a public relief fund. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Broken_Hill

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 10:06am:

What is your point? We all know that people of any religion and culture are capable of those things, and have been. I could post just as many examples of Christians doing it but that would get us nowhere. Clearly the religion has nothing to do with people doing this things, it could be religion as a whole considering how similar Christianity is to them but then it could just be human nature.

That is kind of naive don't you think? You only have to read the tripe from Abu and Falah to see what role religion plays. For someone who is normally critical of religion in general you are strangely eager to defend Islamic terrorism.

Soren wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 1:09pm:

A PROMINENT Muslim youth leader, who preaches the perils of crime to his community, has been charged with possessing more than $1.5 million worth of cocaine. Police allege 36-year-old Fadi Abdul-Rahman, who featured in Kevin Rudd's 2020 Summit in 2008 and has been a fighter for justice in western Sydney, was part of a commercial cocaine syndicate that was caught with 5kg of the drug hidden in a chess set. ... He became a prominent public figure for his work in steering Lebanese youth away from a life of crime and his work was the subject of SBS and ABC TV documentaries. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/muslim-youth-leaders-15m-cocaine-charges/story-e6freuy9-1226367805808 Soooooo Islamophobic of the police to notice and Murdoch to report. A conspiracy.

Is this one a negative or positive representation? That cocaine is the lifeblood of the Taliban freedom fighters.

Soren wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 1:11pm:

falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:44pm: Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:27pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:05am: Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines Gawd help them - as if they didn't have enough ballast of their own to carry. The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia. And did they pass your thesis?

Awarded "High Distinction" - the highest award possible.

falah wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 11:05am:

Parts of my own thesis about the influence of the Muslims from Macassar on Aboriginal culture of Northern Australia: Quote: Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines Prior to being banned from Australia in 1908, thousands of Macassans visited Australia annually on monsoon winds in order to trade and gather pearls and trepang. Over the centuries they affected the culture of Aborigines that they traded with. They showed Aborigines along Australia’s northern coast a wider world, and demonstrated to them that there were foreign people of different colour who could be dealt with, and such relationships could be managed to the benefit of Aborigines. The sophistication, confidence, and knowledge attained though this relationship was observed and commented upon by European explorers and settlers. The contact between Macassan traders and Aborigines took place over a long time and was geographically widespread, although more concentrated in areas like East Arnhem Land and Napier Broome Bay. The influence of the contact on Aboriginal culture and technology was profound. The Macassan traders affected Aboriginal culture, religion, language, economy, and technology, as well as affecting Aboriginal expectations of foreign visitors... ...[Historian] Derek Mulvaney is critical of ‘Europocentric’ historians who ignore the effect of Asians on Australian history, singling out Andrew Sharp’s statement in The Discovery of Australia, that Asian ‘knowledge made no impact on the world at large or on the history of Australia.’5  Mulvaney considered the influence of Macassans on Aboriginal culture to be strong, arguing that: [quote]"Anthropologists have demonstrated convincingly that during the Macassan era, there were complex influences on aboriginal society which made a fundamental contribution to…ceremonial, material culture and language of Arnhem Land." 6 [Anthropologist] Mulvaney also described the effect of the relationship between the Macassans and Aborigines in these terms: [quote]“It is now recognised that its impact upon coastal Aboriginal society was profound. In addition to such material contributions such as the dug-out canoe and sail and metal implements, which probably enabled a more successful exploitation of the environment, the influence was all pervading.” 7

Peter Worsley, who conducted field research in Groote Eylandt in1952-3 for the Australian National University, considered the Macassan relationship influential on the religious and social organisation of Aborigines on Groote Eylandt, as well as affecting the way they evaluated their past 8:



Quote:

…the trepang expeditions can hardly have failed to make a considerable impact on the life of the Australian aborigines, on their economy and their social organization, as well as on their ideas and beliefs… …The world-view of the aborigines was greatly widened, not merely by direct contact with the Malay sailors, but also by first-hand experience of Indonesia itself, since many aborigines took employment in the vessels of the visitors, and thus visited the Celebes…and other parts of Indonesia for quite lengthy periods.9

Anthropologist Donald Thomson, who conducted research in Arnhem Land in the 1930’s, considered that the Macassans set a benchmark for conduct of foreign visitors in Arnhem Land:



Quote:

These visiting voyagers from Indonesia exercised a profound influence on the natives of Arnhem Land, which can be seen to this day. They established a good working relationship with the people and they left behind a tradition of respect amounting to hero worship which still remains. There is no doubt that failure to appreciate the history of Arnhem Land has been responsible for the extreme hostility which the white man and the Japanese met subsequently in this area. Visiting seafarers were expected to conform to the pattern of conduct which had been established, which included a respect for the integrity of the women, and to recognize also the territorial and other rights of the natives, as the Macassar trepang fishermen had done. Too much stress was laid by the white man on the primitive and savage disposition of the people, whereas we know now that as a result of their long contact with overseas visitors of a more advanced culture, they were more sophisticated than any other Australian aborigines, a fact which was noted by Matthew Flinders nearly a century and a half ago. 10

Historian Alan Powell argues that the impact of large numbers of Macassan traders visiting Australia may be the reason why the Northern Territory’s coastal Aborigines were better able to cope with European attempts of colonisation:


Quote:

The regular visits of a thousand men, or more, from another culture could not help but affect the lives of coastal Arnhem Landers…The second great influence of the Macassans lies in the conditioning of their hosts to the impact of alien life forces. Almost alone amongst the Australian Aborigines, the coastal Arnhem Landers had long and continuous experience of coping with outsiders before the coming of the British. That experience may help to explain why some were able to withstand so well the tremendous pressures which were put upon them in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. 11

Anthropologist Ian Crawford has written that Islamic beliefs such as the existence of Allah, the unity of mankind, and the existence of a universal law for mankind ‘provided Yolngu with a means of both comprehending and coping with developments’ that came with dealing with outsiders. Crawford argues that these beliefs have been used by Yolngu as “a conceptual weapon…in the struggle against domination against the ‘Other’.’12  Berndt and Berndt argue that contact with Macassans prepared Arnhem Landers, in some measure, for the cultural clash with Europeans.13

Crawford writes that ‘fleets of perahus sailing to the northern coasts of Australia in search of bêche-de mer opened to Aborigines a vision of a wider world.’ 14  The visitors from the East Indies opened up a wider world to Aborigines they visited, not just through their own presence, but by employing Aborigines to work on their perahus which took them around the northern Australian coast and sometimes even to the East Indies Islands to the north. Charley Djaladari, told Berndt and Berndt of what he had seen at Makassar:



Quote:

‘We saw so many things…the Balanda white men, with horses and carts and big houses and strange looking clothes …there were stone houses…there were so many people, and I couldn’t see them all’

In 1841, Port Essington settler, George Earl, remarked upon the Aborigines who were seen travelling with the Macassans in their praus:



Quote:

Nearly every prahu on leaving, the coast takes two or three natives to Macassar, and brings them back next season. 16

Berndt and Berndt noted that those Aborigines that had returned from such a journey ‘liked to talk of their journey through the islands to Macassar, and around the camp fires stories were told and songs were composed about what they had seen.’ 17



Quote:

They sing…of the Macassan wharfs; of the rice fields; money; the making of iron; the cutting of timber; the making of proas…of their houses, and so on; all the colorful life of an East Indies town is related in the poetic aboriginal songs… 18

Groote Eylandt elder Galiawa Nalanbayayaya Wurramarrba narrates how his father travelled to Makassar:


Quote:

My father often used to tell me stories of the Macassan days. He went away with them when he was a young boy. Wanabadi the Macassan took him and he was away for four [years]. 19

[/quote]


5 D J Mulvaney, The Prehistory of Australia, Thames and Hudson, London, 1969, pp. 19-20.

6 D Mulvaney, 'Beche-de-Mer, Aborigines and Australian History', Proceedings of the Royal Society of  Victoria, vol. 79, 196, p.454.

7 Mulvaney, The prehistory of Australia, p. 39.

8 P Worsley, Early Asian Contacts with Australia, Past and Present, vol. 7, 1955, pp. 6.

9 Ibid, pp3-5.

10 D Thomson, Arnhem Land: explorations among an unknown people, Geographical Journal, Vol. 112, 1948, pp.146-7.

11 A Powell, Far Country: a short history of the Northern Territory, Charles Darwin University Press, Darwin, 2009, pp.30-1.

12 I  McIntosh,  Can We Be Equal In Your Eyes?: a perspective on reconciliation from northeast Arnhem Land, PhD thesis, Northern Territory University, 1996, p214.

13  R Berndt, & C Berndt, Arnhem Land: its history and its people, F. W. Cheshire, Melbourne, 1954, p.70-1.

14 I Crawford, We Won the Victory: Aborigines and outsiders on the north-west coast of the Kimberley, Fremantle Arts Centre Press, Fremantle, 2001, p.97.

15 Berndt & Berndt, Arnhem Land…, p.56-8.

16 G, W, Earl, 'An account of a visit to Kisser, one of the Serawatti group in the Indian archipelago’, Journal of the Royal Geographical Society, vol. 11, 1841, p.116

17 Berndt & Berndt, Arnhem Land…, p.50.

18 R Berndt & C Berndt, ‘Secular figures of Northeastern Arnhem Land’, American Anthropologist, vol. 51, issue 2, 1949, p.216.

19G Wurramarrba, & J Stokes, (trans.) in K Cole, (ed.) Groote Eylandt Stories; changing patterns of life among the Aborigines on Groote Eylandt, Church Missionary Historical Publications, Melbourne, 1972, p. 32.
[/quote]

cont'd:

Urry and Walsh argue that there must have been a substantial influence on Aborigines who visited the East Indies.20  This opinion is supported by Earl’s 1846 observation regarding Aborigines returning from Makassar:


Quote:

A considerable number have paid one or more visits to Macassar, residing there for months together, which has familiarized them with the language and manners of the people of that country… 21

Captain Collet Barker, commandant at Raffles Bay, recorded in his journal an interview with a Macassan perahu captain who informed Barker about East Arnhem Land Aborigines:


Quote:

Described a very good run of blacks (in the Gulf of Carpentaria as well as I could make out) who wore clothes spoke a little Malay…never stole from them and made themselves useful in various ways helping them to get wood water turtle etc….Several had been at Macassar probably 100 of them, some were there now. They were useful sailors…The parts they inhabited was from two to four days sail about as far as from Port Essington to Timor… 22

On 7 May 1829 six praus appeared. 'In the last prau,' Barker recorded, 'I understood there were four…blacks who were going to Macassar.'” 23 Certainly, in the last days of the Macassan trade there were many Aborigines visiting Macassar and even living there as Charley Djaladjari told Berndt and Berndt in the 1940’s:


Quote:

When we reached…the port of Macassans the big boss named Karei  Deintumbo…came down to the wharf…my boss Wonabadi…said to him “I’ve got some boys here” – referring to my companions and myself. “All right,” Deintumbo replied. “I’ll take all these men, and they can come to my place to sleep and have food.” He gave us money and we went with him. Near where I stayed several countrymen of mine [Aborigines] were living. 24

Berndt and Berndt describe Makassar as a ‘Mecca for of the northeast Arnhem Landers.’ 25  Indigenous Australians who had travelled to foreign lands must have profoundly changed the world view of their families and tribes upon their return to Australia. James Urry and Michael Walsh discuss the fact that “Aborigines appear to have joined the praus voluntarily” and suggest that Aborigines may have been travelling with the Macassans due to having adopted the Islamic religion, and write that “the issue of religious conversion should not be overlooked.”26  Earl encountered some of these Aboriginal Muslims at Port Essington (1841):


Quote:

A few have been converted to Mohammedanism; one of these, Caraday, a chief of one of Goulbourn's Islands, visited us soon after our arrival at Port Essington. He had been circumcised, and refused to eat pork. 27

Another factor suggesting religious conversion amongst Aborigines was the intermarriage with Macassans, which would have been socially unacceptable on the Macassan side without converting the Aborigines to Islam. In the late 1940’s, Ronald and Catherine Berndt noticed that some of the people they encountered in Arnhem Land had physical features which suggested East Indies ancestry.28  Berndt and Berndt write that in the early periods of contact, relations between Aboriginal women and Macassan men were well-regulated.29  The traditional arrangement was that Aborigines should provide wives for their trading partners.30  Charley Djaladjari informed Berndt and Berndt that he had met several Aboriginal men and women who in Makassar who had married locals.31  Barbara Laklak Ganambarr, a Yolngu woman, tells how her grandfather told her that when the Macassans went back to their country:


Quote:

Some Aboriginal went with them. Some stayed there and married Makassan women and then came back. Some Makassans married Aboriginal women and took them back to Indonesia. 32

Archaelogical, documentary, and oral evidence demonstrates that the trepang trade was most intense in the region around Arnhem Land, while a less intense relationship occurred in the Kimberley region. Berndt argues that the East of Arnhem Land is the area of longest contact: “no other group of Aborigines in the Northern Territory, or perhaps in all Australia, has been subjected to such intensive contact with alien peoples, over such a long period of years…”33

In East Arnhem Land the attitude of Aborigines towards inter-gender relations was affected by the culture and attitude of the traders. In South Sulawesi, there are cultural boundaries between women and men who are not close relatives.34  This influence on Aboriginal culture was observed by Warner observed that in the East of Arnhem Land, Aborigines were protective of their wives and did not like to share their wives with others.35  Berndt and Berndt also noted that in areas where the cultural influence of the East Indies traders was greatest, such as in Groote Eylandt, women were segregated from men, and were jealously guarded from European and Japanese intruders. Women in these areas also had a notion of physical modesty, covering their private parts. In East Arnhem Land, and on Groote Eylandt, European explorers and missionaries noticed that Aboriginal women did not mix with strangers, and went to the bother of covering their private parts. A newspaper article regarding Arnhem Land in 1934 describes inter-gender relations on Groote Eylandt:


Quote:

…according to missionaries interviewed…The islanders keep their women hidden from strangers…there is said to be definite evidence of a Malay strain in the [coastal] aborigines, so that they have not lived in the simple isolation of the inland tribes. They have developed a business sense, and have been traders for generations. 36

In 1803 Flinders noted at Caledon Bay, in northeast Arnhem Land, that the only female that could see ‘wore a small piece of bark, in guise of a fig leaf.’37  Crawford that in the Kimberley an elderly man who died in the 1970’s had earlier informed his translator that he had seen an Aboriginal woman that on a trepanging boat wearing a grass or fabric skirt.38  This is likely to have been a result of the influence of Southeast Asian Islamic thought affecting Aboriginal culture. Intermarriage would have helped to spread cultural ideas about women. This attitude toward women is contrasted in the East coast of Australia where Aboriginal women could be seen by early explorers such as Captain James Cook who wrote:


Quote:

The natives of this country…go quite naked both men and women without any manner of Cloathing whatever, even the women do not so much as cover their privities. 39

Outside of Arnhem Land,40  and even in Western Arnhem Land, which saw less Macassan contact, Aborigines were less protective of their women.41  Warner wrote that wife-lending and prostitution was common in the West, however he did not discover such conduct in East Arnhem Land.42  Thompson mentioned that in the absence of the Macassans, large numbers of Japanese trepangers in Arnhem Land waters in the 1920’s and 1930’s had resulted in ‘the prostitution of women, including little girls’ becoming ‘ regular custom’ at Cape Stewart and at the King River in West Arnhem Land.43 

In the 1940’s Berndt and Berndt noticed that venereal disease was rare in eastern Arnhem Land, whereas it was more prevalent in Western Arnhem Land, which had less influence from the Macassans.44   In Western Arnhem Land, the Goulbourn Island Mission authorities had stated that in the 1940’s, 80 per cent of the population had been infected with venereal disease.45  The Aborigines in Western Arnhem Land informed Berndt and Berndt that they did not suffer from venereal disease in the days of early Macassan contact.46  Venereal disease seems to have been introduced at the time of European contact.47  Dr Cecil Strangman, Protector of Aborigines for the Northern Territory in 1908 considered Europeans to be the source of gonorrhoeal infections.48  Considering the devastating effect sexually transmitted diseases had on Aborigines population levels in other parts of Australia through its often resulting infertility, it is likely that the practice of segregating women from strangers saved the East Arnhem Land from a significant drop in population that had occurred in Aboriginal communities elsewhere. Another aspect of introduced Macassan culture was observed by John Lort Stokes, an officer onboard the HMS Beagle, who found that Aboriginal inhabitants of Arnhem Land possessed clothing, which he had not seen elsewhere in Australia:


Quote:

Hanging on trees round these habitations, were specimens of an article of clothing, never before seen among the Aborigines of Australia…It is a kind of covering…made from coarse grass. 49

Stokes later added this explanatory footnote regarding the clothing:


Quote:

I have since heard from Mr. Earl, that the women in the S.E. part of Van Diemen's Gulf [Arnhem Land], occasionally wear a covering round their waist, somewhat similar to the [clothing that Stokes had found]. 50

Considering the warm climate in the area, it would seem that the purpose of the skirt would be for modesty rather than for protection from the elements. Considering that the region was visited by trepangers, and Muslim Aboriginal men had visited the nearby colony at Port Essington, it seems likely that the wearing of clothes was a result of the influence of the Muslim trepangers.

20  Urry & Walsh, p. 94.
21   G W Earl, Enterprise in tropical Australia, London, 1846, p. 118.
22  C Barker, Joumal at Raffles Bay, 13 Sep 1828 - 29 Aug 1829, NSW Archives, 912747 SR Reel 2654.
23  Ibid. 
24  Berndt & Berndt,  Arnhem Land…, p.56.
25  Ibid, p.60.
26 Urry & Walsh, p. 94.
27 G W Earl, 'An account of a visit to Kisser, one of rhe Serawatti group in the Indian archipelago, Journal of the Royal Geographical Society, vol. 11, 1841, p.116.
28 Berndt, & Berndt, Arnhem Land…, p.6.
29 Ibid, p.28-9.
30 Ibid.
31 Ibid, pp.56-7.
32 B Ganambarr, ‘My Grandfather Used to Tell Me Sto

falah wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 7:33pm:

Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 1:11pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:44pm: Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:27pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:05am: Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines Gawd help them - as if they didn't have enough ballast of their own to carry. The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia. And did they pass your thesis? Awarded "High Distinction" - the highest award possible.

Awarded by whom? An islamic university, no doubt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZkStSdlh3c&feature=player_embedded

;D

Soren wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 8:02pm:

falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 7:33pm: Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 1:11pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:44pm: Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:27pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:05am: Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines Gawd help them - as if they didn't have enough ballast of their own to carry. The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia. And did they pass your thesis? Awarded "High Distinction" - the highest award possible. Awarded by whom? An islamic university, no doubt.

All my degrees are from Australian secular universities...not that you would know anything about university. Judging by the intellectual ability demonstrated in posts, i would be surprised if you even finished secondary schooling.

falah wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 8:51pm:

Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 8:02pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 7:33pm: Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 1:11pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:44pm: Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:27pm: falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:05am: Macassan Cultural Influence on Aborigines Gawd help them - as if they didn't have enough ballast of their own to carry. The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia. And did they pass your thesis? Awarded "High Distinction" - the highest award possible. Awarded by whom? An islamic university, no doubt. All my degrees are from Australian secular universities...not that you would know anything about university. Judging by the intellectual ability demonstrated in posts, i would be surprised if you even finished secondary schooling.

Well, you'd be surprised, pal. Shocked, actually.

Exactly. I know of at least one honourary diploma from the School of Pakistani Studies.

The old boy has earned every bit of it.

Quote:

The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia.

- Dear me, genocide everywhere but Arnhem land, due to learning??? something from muslims.
That must be one mighty impressive thesis.
I wonder if the good doctor placed any probability on the fact that europeans  of the 18th and 19th centuries would have considered arnhem land pretty worthless, so would not have cared who lived there?

I really hate made up history, where people take incredibly minor events and try to attach an importance to them that just never existed.
Cameleers??, yep no doubt about it, without them we would all be living under some rock.

lol, exactly. if i have to hear about those afghan cameleers one more time i will feel compelled to rip out my own spleen with a complementary kentucky fried chicken plastic fork.

Mattyfisk wrote on May 28^th, 2012 at 11:44pm:

Exactly. I know of at least one honourary diploma from the School of Pakistani Studies. The old boy has earned every bit of it.

Hey, PB, you are the Paki Bvgger with the cravat and the gold tooth from Bradford Poly's School of Post-colonian studies (marxist-leninist). Remember? 

Soren wrote on May 29^th, 2012 at 11:32am:

Mattyfisk wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:44pm: Exactly. I know of at least one honourary diploma from the School of Pakistani Studies. The old boy has earned every bit of it. Hey, PB, you are the Paki Bvgger with the cravat and the gold tooth from Bradford Poly's School of Post-colonian studies (marxist-leninist). Remember?

Exactly. And as faculty head, it was my privilege to award you with this marvellous honour.

Recipients are normally required to be tinted, but the faculty made an exception in your case.

We do not give out honourary diplomas in Pakistani Logic to just anyone.

mozzaok wrote on May 29^th, 2012 at 11:26am:

Quote: The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happened everywhere else in Australia. - Dear me, genocide everywhere but Arnhem land, due to learning??? something from muslims. That must be one mighty impressive thesis. I wonder if the good doctor placed any probability on the fact that europeans  of the 18th and 19th centuries would have considered arnhem land pretty worthless, so would not have cared who lived there?

Really? Why were the Aborigines in West Arnhem Land virtually wiped out, and  those who lived in the areas contacted by Muslims in  East Arnhem land able to resist genocide and dispossession of their lands?

I have been to Arnhem Land, and can tell you that is fertile land.

http://www.adrenalin.com.au/files/adventures/images/13242/katherine-gorge-arnhem-land-30-min-scenic-helicopter-flight-nt_large.jpg

http://svc054.bookeasy.com/images/darwin/arnhemlandplateau.jpg


The fact is that the fertile coastal areas still in Aboriginal hands today correspond to where contact with Muslim Macassan traders were strongest. We know where the Macassan traders had their camps due to recordings of European explorers and settler, anecdoatal evidence from Indigenous Australians, and archaeological evidence found at these camps.

In fact there is evidence to suggest that large previously nomadic Indigenous communities began settling permanently in coastal areas due to their trade with Muslim Macassans.

My thesis covers these topics.


http://www.environorth.org.au/nailsma/images/arnhemmap1.jpg
Orange is Aboriginal Land

http://www.environorth.org.au/css/environorth/images/maps//windows/al/map.gif

http://www.aboriginalartonline.com/aboriginalpainting/gimages/arnhemmap.gif

Christian Europeans made many attempts to turn Arnhem Land into cattle stations. One of the most ambitious of these ventures was initiated by a Melbourne-based syndicate, the Eastern and African Cold Storage Supply Company, which leased land in 1899 and in 1903 decided to attempt a pastoral venture. The lease was vast, covering the whole of North East Arnhem Land or 51 800 square kilometres. This lease took over some of those abandoned late in the nineteenth century to the north of the Roper River. However, this lease also failed and was abandoned within five years. Several accounts of large scale massacres of Aboriginal people and atrocities have been recorded by historians as occurring during the tenure of the company in the area (Dewar 1985). It seems likely that these pastoralists faced increasing hostility from local Aboriginal people, and this forced them to abandon the enterprise.

Mattyfisk wrote on May 29^th, 2012 at 11:52am:

Soren wrote on May 29th, 2012 at 11:32am: Mattyfisk wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 11:44pm: Exactly. I know of at least one honourary diploma from the School of Pakistani Studies. The old boy has earned every bit of it. Hey, PB, you are the Paki Bvgger with the cravat and the gold tooth from Bradford Poly's School of Post-colonian studies (marxist-leninist). Remember?  Exactly. And as faculty head, it was my privilege to award you with this marvellous honour. Recipients are normally required to be tinted, but the faculty made an exception in your case. We do not give out honourary diplomas in Pakistani Logic to just anyone.

Thanks.

It still hasn't arrived, though. Did you use Paki Post?

Er, yes. I believe the Bradford Post Office has been outsourced to Pakistan - part of British Post's anti-modernisation/Islamicisation project.

Sorry. It might take some time.

Quote:

I have been to Arnhem Land, and can tell you that is fertile land.

I hope you are not suggesting it was you who wrote that thesis, because you have failed to grasp even the most basic concepts presented to you in this thread. It is not the fertility in terms of biological diversity or biomass that is relevant here, but the productivity for european farming methods. The european immigrants did not have much use for 'fertile' tropical swamps, which is why even today there are hardly any white people up there. The wheat belts are a great example of the land that was actually useful.


Quote:

Several accounts of large scale massacres of Aboriginal people and atrocities have been recorded by historians as occurring during the tenure of the company in the area (Dewar 1985). It seems likely that these pastoralists faced increasing hostility from local Aboriginal people, and this forced them to abandon

Yeah, must be tough massacring people. Lucky the Aborigines had Islam to teach them how to turn a massacre into a glorious victory merely by discarding facts.

freediver wrote on May 29^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Quote: I have been to Arnhem Land, and can tell you that is fertile land. I hope you are not suggesting it was you who wrote that thesis, because you have failed to grasp even the most basic concepts presented to you in this thread. It is not the fertility in terms of biological diversity or biomass that is relevant here, but the productivity for european farming methods. The european immigrants did not have much use for 'fertile' tropical swamps, which is why even today there are hardly any white people up there. The wheat belts are a great example of the land that was actually useful.

Stop exposing your ignorance Freeliar. Only about 1% of Arnhem Land's 97,000 square kilometres are swamps.

If we compare similar areas in Australia's north, the Aborigines have been removed from the land, and white farmers have taken over the land. I have travelled around the Top End and seen that there are plenty of farms in the fertile coastal regions. Even in areas that borderline desert in the Northern Territory are being used by graziers. Arnhem Land is much greener and fertile than the areas to the south where there are lots of white farmers.


Quote:

Several accounts of large scale massacres of Aboriginal people and atrocities have been recorded by historians as occurring during the tenure of the company in the area (Dewar 1985). It seems likely that these pastoralists faced increasing hostility from local Aboriginal people, and this forced them to abandon

Yeah, must be tough massacring people. Lucky the Aborigines had Islam to teach them how to turn a massacre into a glorious victory merely by discarding facts.[/quote]


The fact is that the Yolngu learnt from these massacres and mounted successful guerilla warfare in Arnhem Land against pastoral invaders and Japanese fishers who trangressed against them.

The Macassan traders sold guns to the Yolngu and warned them about the White Christian invaders. Even today the Yolngu people use the Indonesian word "Balander" for white man.

The Yolngu had seen white Dutch in their travels to Indonesia. They had been told to be wary of the whites, and knew they needed to resist them, and they knew how to deal with them.

The is in contrast to Aborigines in the south of Australia who thought that white people were ghosts. There are accounts of Aborigines literally shitting themselves upon seeing white people for the first time in Tasmania.

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 3:53pm:

Imagine how you would represent soren. A man(questionable) with small genitals, bold hair and a 700ft carrot up his ass. Also uneducated, ignorant and unable to answer questions, accept reality and incorporate facts and evidence which would make dialogue fairly hard

We've done this already, skuppy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SK38Ln3FNs&feature=fvwrel

Quote:

I have travelled around the Top End and seen that there are plenty of farms in the fertile coastal regions. Even in areas that borderline desert in the Northern Territory are being used by graziers.

This doesn't mean the land is suitable for european farming methods. There have also been plenty of failures, for economic reasons - nothing to do with violent Muslim influenced aborigines. Do you think it is militant aborigines that have kept Darwin's population to only 130 thousand? Or might it be the fact that immigrants don't really want to go there? The fact is, even when the land is virtually free up there, it is difficult to make a farm economic.

The Ord river debate revolves around this issue too. It has enourmous potential, but just difficult to realise, even with modern technology.

Did your thesis even consider the more practical side of things? or did it attempt to attribute everything to Islam like you do with other periods of History?

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 6:29pm:

Did your thesis even consider the more practical side of things?

Gedoutatown!!!


Consider the practical side of things when Islamic ideological mileage is the sole consideration?

Did your thesis attempt to estimate the usefulness of the land to immigrant farmers in the absence of hostile aborigines? Did it consider the more rational and obvious explanation that the remoteness and lack of interest allowed the aborigines to maintain the self image of hostility without being slaughtered?

BTW, you still have not clarified whether it actually is your thesis. I hope you are not attempting to take credit for someone else's mindless postulations.

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:09pm:

Did your thesis attempt to estimate the usefulness of the land to immigrant farmers in the absence of hostile aborigines? Did it consider the more rational and obvious explanation that the remoteness and lack of interest allowed the aborigines to maintain the self image of hostility without being slaughtered? BTW, you still have not clarified whether it actually is your thesis. I hope you are not attempting to take credit for someone else's mindless postulations.

Freediver, I have already posted here that attempts were made to colonise Arnhem Land in the 19th century. The most recent attempt was made by the Melbourne-based Eastern and African Cattle and Cold Storage company as late as 1903.


http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12280261




This is one of the best books I have read about the war between the Yolngu people and the Eastern and African Cattle and Cold Storage company.

http://www.whywarriors.com.au/images/content/Purchase-Book-Why-Warrior.jpg

http://www.whywarriors.com.au/products/index.php

Falah, what exactly do you interpret from the fact that it was attempted? Obviously it is going to be attempted by someone. This does not mean that the land is suitable for european farming methods. The failure is just another demonstration that the land was not suitable. If the land was easy to make money off, there would have been no stopping the farmers from going up there and farming it. It is not like the entire tropical north is densely populated with farmers except for these little pockets of holdout violent aboriginal tribes. The entire area is sparsely populated, regardless of what the aborigines got up to.

Are you suggesting that you wrote a thesis about this but still haven't gotten your head around the difference between fertility and farmability?

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 11:01pm:

Falah, what exactly do you interpret from the fact that it was attempted?

Attempted more than once. The resistance from Aborigines is what made he difference between success and failure in these attempts.


That the Muslim Macassans prepared the Aborigines for the European invasion was known by European officials. Anthropoligist, Ronald Berndt, wrote that: "Berndt and Berndt wrote that ‘it was officially contended that these traders had incited the Aborigines to repulse white settlement or invasion of their territory.’¹


It is likely that the Macassans warned the Arhem Landers very early because Matthew Flinders' expidition was attacked at Woodah Island off the Arnhem Land coast in 1803 - this was noted as unusual behaviour for the usually timid Australian Aborigines.

In 1818 a lieutenant of Philip Parker King wrote home about the Aborigines:

"We have found them extremely hostile in every part occasioned by the presence of the Malays on their coast…suffice it to say that all our communications have been by means of spears, stones and shot. "²


The Yolngu use the Indonesian word Balander to describe white men which indicates that discussions about white men predated British settlement.

Berndt recorded that the Yolngu people informed him that the Macassans had given this warning: “Go back into the bush out of the way of...(Europeans) for they might come and fight us.” ³



American anthropolgist Warner lived with the Yolngu in the 1920's. He recorded being told by an elderly Yolngu man of how Macassans had warned his people about the Europeans:


Quote:

They said white men were all the same as animals and that they were big men and had hair on them and were very fierce and they just killed people because they liked to kill. They said the white men stole all the women of a people they visited, and when they complained they killed them... 4

Alfred Searcy, a customs collector in the 1880’s wrote in his diary about European interference in the in the Macasssan trade that this had was viewed as a hostile act by the Yolngu people: ‘there is little doubt that they look on the whites as enemies.’⁵   

Historian Ian Crawford wrote that the Macassans had taught the Aborigines about 'firearms, and they subsequently developed effective guerrilla warfare tactics.'⁶

In 1863, Dr James Martin noted that the Aborigines living in the coastal areas of the Kimberley, where Macassans were known to visit, had knowledge of guns, whilst the Aborigines living inland did not.⁷






freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 11:01pm:

Obviously it is going to be attempted by someone. This does not mean that the land is suitable for european farming methods. The failure is just another demonstration that the land was not suitable.

Freeliar, Arnhem Land would be far more suitable for grazing cattle than much of the land to the south in the Northern Territory, where Aborigines have been virtually wiped out, and whites have taken over.



freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 11:01pm:

If the land was easy to make money off, there would have been no stopping the farmers from going up there and farming it.

Many people believed that the area would make money. If people didn't think that it would make money, then why were so many attempts made to colonise the land?





freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 11:01pm:

It is not like the entire tropical north is densely populated with farmers except for these little pockets of holdout violent aboriginal tribes. The entire area is sparsely populated, regardless of what the aborigines got up to.

Freeliar, I have been around nearly all of Australia, and I can tell you that on the mainland there is hardly any parts of non-desert/non-mountain land that is not used by whites.


Arnhem Land and the coastal Kimberley region is the best land in the corner of Australia north of Alice Springs and west of Mt. Isa. However, most of these lands are still in Aboriginal hands - and these are the areas where Macassans traded. It is ludicrous for you to say that these lands wouldn't make money when they have advantages over cattle stations further inland. The coastal areas are far more arable, and their proximity to the sea would make trade easier.

This letter written to the Queenslander newspaper in 1886 describes the dire situation of Aborigines living in the less fertile and less hospitable South and Western sides of the Gulf of Carpentaria:


Quote:

The N!ggers Again. SIR, —I have just returned from a trip to the Gulf, and while there was able to see something of the way the natives are treated. Now this way of "subduing" and "dispersing" must end very soon, or, if not, before very many years there will be none left. At present they are hunted away from their usual hunting grounds, and sent to starve along the coast, or in the ranges. The few I saw are really being slowly starved to death. If they return at any time to their own birthplace they are at once dispersed by the stockman or the police…from all I saw and heard from the black people, there are very few of each tribe left. T. S. B. 8

¹ R Berndt & C Berndt, Arnhem Land: its history and its people, F. W. Cheshire, Melbourne, 1954, p.98

²  J Roe, letter to his father, no. 4 Mermaid at Coepang, Timor, 8 June 1818, Battye Library, cited in I, Crawford, We Won the Victory, p.99.

³ Berndt & Berndt, p.69

⁴ W L Warner, A Black Civilization: A study of an Australian tribe, Harper Torchwood, New York, 1964pp. 474-5.

⁵A Searcy, In Northern Seas, W.K. Thomas, Adelaide, 1905, p.10

⁶I Crawford, We Won the Victory: Aborigines and outsiders on the north-west coast of the Kimberley, Fremantle Arts Centre Press, Fremantle, 2001, p.

⁷ J Martin, Exlorations in north-western Australia, Journal of the Royal Geographical Society, vol. 35, 1865, pp. 242-3.

⁸T.S.B., ’The N!ggers Again’, The Queenslander, 12 June 1886, p.19.

Historian, Ian Crawford, compares the treatment of Australian Aborigines by European settlers to atrocities committed by the Nazis against Gypsies and Jews, albeit on a smaller scale.¹

Wherever European settlement was successful in Australia, Aboriginal number dwindled. Historian Henry Reynolds estimates that at least 20,000 Aborigines were killed violently by settlers in Australian frontier violence,² 

In the north of Australia the genocide against Aborigines was particularly brutal. On the 30th May 1865, the editor of the Rockhampton Bulletin wrote that hundreds of blacks were killed each year.³

As for women, Reynolds writes that it was common for Aboriginal women to be abducted by whites from the earliest days of settlement until the 1940’s.⁴


In the latter half of the 19th century, when pastoralists were attempting to colonise Arnhem Land, white attitudes towards Aborigines bordered on condoning genocide  not only in frontier areas, but could also be found in high Government office ⁵ This is demonstrated in a newspaper article about a lecture by missionary Father Woods:


Quote:

A Government official occupying a high and responsible position had told him that it was all very well to have sympathy with the blacks, but that Queensland could not get on until they were exterminated. 6

That Aborigines were being exterminated was confirmed by the Bishop of North Queensland in his address to the Australian Church Congress at Melbourne in 1906 which reveals the dangers that Australia’s Aborigines faced on the lawless frontiers:


Quote:

…The blacks have been shot and poisoned…now left to kill themselves with white vices where they have been 'tamed,' but very few have received at our hands either justice or consideration.7

When the British ship the Beagle explored the Australian coastline in 1842 explorer Lort Stokes wrote of his disgust at the way Aborigines were being treated:


Quote:

…such is the perversion of feeling among a portion of the colonists, that they cannot conceive how anyone can sympathize with the black race as their fellow men. In theory and practice they regard them as wild beasts whom it is lawful to extirpate…such is a very common sentiment.... …a party of natives was sent on board, with a request that I would allow the Vansittart to take them to Flinders Island…supposed to be the last of the aboriginal inhabitants of Tasmania…who have been hunted down like wild beasts…we have driven them from their native land… ...my countrymen…have sternly and systematically trampled on the fallen…they started with an erroneous theory…That the aborigines were not men, but brutes…and what cruelties flowed from such a doctrine!... …a war of extermination, the success of which was, in the end, complete, began to be carried on…they set about the hunting down and capture of the aborigines… and military operations on a most extensive scale were undertaken…and every method resorted to…8

In 1930, anthropologist Alfred Reginald Radcliffe-Brown estimated that the 1788 Aboriginal population in Australia was 300,000.  Noel Butlin considers the Radcliffe-Brown estimate to be supported by ‘anthropological understanding’
However, Mulvaney wrote that although this number was widely accepted by later anthropologists, this figure may be too conservative, and the population may have been much higher.   Historian Eric Rolls suggest that the actual figure was at least one and a half million.  And this is similar to Governor Phillip’s guess that there were a million Aborigines in Australia in 1788, which may be a conservative guess considering that, at the time, it was thought that the interior of Australia was largely uninhabited. 

In 1901 93,000 Aborigines survived, and more than half of these lived in the Northern Territory and Western Australia - mainly in areas where Macassans had traded with the Indigenous Australians. In the southeast of Australia where alien contact was unknown before Europeans arrived, few Aborigines remained. There were 7,434 Aborigines in New South Wales, 5815 in South Australia, 652 in Victoria, and in Tasmania only 157.  If we accept Radcliffe-Brown’s figure and compare it to the 1901 census figures we can see that there was a dramatic decline of Aboriginal population in Australia, with more than two-thirds having vanished off the face of the Earth. However, Butlin suggests that the the decline was even more dramatic, and that the Aboriginal population may have fallen by more than 90% from the numbers in the era prior to European contact: 


Quote:

“Whites rejected black rights to land and their access to resources; they fought and killed blacks with their superior technology of death and hastened their demise in other ways; they transmitted Western diseases; they speeded the departure of the blacks with prostitution and alcohol; and they allowed or forced a great many blacks to starve.” 9

¹Crawford,

²H, Reynolds, Frontier: Aborigines, settlers and land, Allen & Unwin, Sydney, 1987.

³Ibid.

⁴Ibid.

⁵P Knightley, Australia: Biography of a Nation, Jonathan Cape, London, 2000

⁶‘Something for the Black Commission’, The Queenslander, 28 February 1874, p.3.

⁷K Cole, Groote Eylandt Pioneer; a biography of the Reverend Hubert Ernest de Mey Warren, pioneer missionary and explorer among Arnhem Land Aborigines of Arnhem Land, Church Missionary Historical Publications, Melbourne, 1971, p. 5.

⁸J L Stokes, Discoveries in Australia; with an account of the coasts and rivers explored and surveyed during the voyage of H.M.S. Beagle, in the years 1837-38-39-40-41-42-43, vol. II, T. and W. Boone, London, 1846, pp. 459-66.

⁹N Butlin, Our Original Aggression: Aboriginal populations of Southeastern Australia 1788-1850, George Allen & Unwin, North Sydney, 1983

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:09pm:

Did your thesis attempt to estimate the usefulness of the land to immigrant farmers in the absence of hostile aborigines? Did it consider the more rational and obvious explanation that the remoteness and lack of interest allowed the aborigines to maintain the self image of hostility without being slaughtered?

Yes I considered this Freeliar, which is why I researched the history of European attempts to colonise the area.


In the latter half of the nineteenth century, the frontier of white settlement was encroaching on Arnhem Land.


Historian, Mulvaney, writes of Arnhem Land: ‘successive attempts were made to colonize’ the land.¹

In 1866, Captain Francis Cadell, after being commissioned by the South Australian Government to find a suitable location for a northern settlement, chose the Liverpool River on the north-central Arnhem Land coast. ²

In 1876 a gold prospecting party returned from an expedition at Blue Mud Bay in Arnhem Land without finding gold, however, the Government Resident at Darwin wrote that they had found the land in the area to be suitable for agricultural purposes.³

That Aborigines were being slaughtered in areas deemed to be suitable for farming in the Northern Territory is demonstrated in the statements of Government Resident, Charles Dashwood, in 1900 regarding the ‘administration of justice in the Northern Territory.’ He wrote that:


Quote:

It was notorious that the blackfellows were shot down like crows, and no notice was taken.4

The manner in which Aboriginal tribes were being done away with in the Northern Territory was mentioned in 1890 by Police-Inspector Foelsche, who wrote:

.
Quote:

..the tribe withering away fastest is the Woolwonga. My private opinion is that a good many have been put away with bullets. 5

 





¹Mulvaney, The Prehisory of Australia,
²AMcMillan, An Intruder’s Guide to East Arnhem Land, Duffy & Snellgrove, Potts Point, 2001, pp.43-44.
³No. 74 of 1876, to the Minister of Agriculture and Education, Adelaide, Northern Territory Incoming Correspondence
⁴A G Price, The History and Problems of the Northern Territory, Australia, A. E. Acott, Adelaide, 1930, p.26.
⁵Ibid.

You are still missing the point Falah. Was the hostility of these aborigines a cause of the lack of white settlement, or was it merely made possible because of the lack of interest - otherwise they would have been slaughtered?

How do you explain the low population density of europeans over the entire north coast of Australia, regardless of the hostility of the aborigines?

How do you rationally justify the comparison's you have made with southern areas of Australia?

Perhaps an example might bring it back down to earth. The North American Indians were far more militant and far more skilled at warfare than the Australian Aborigines. How did that work out for them?

freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2012 at 6:44pm:

Was the hostility of these aborigines a cause of the lack of white settlement, or was it merely made possible because of the lack of interest - otherwise they would have been slaughtered?

Freeliar, I have told you that many attempts were made to colonise the North of Australia, these attempts failed, largely, due to the defence of the Indigenous populations.

The only places where Europeans managed to get a strong foothold in the North, was places where the Macassans did not regularly visit.

Many attempts were made to establish colonies in the north prior to Darwin. Darwin success is due to the fact it was  a place not frequented by Macassans.



freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2012 at 6:44pm:

How do you explain the low population density of europeans over the entire north coast of Australia, regardless of the hostility of the aborigines?

There are a number of reasons. But it is no coincidence that the only large European settlement, (Darwin),  in the north-western coast of Australia is in the only fertile area in not used by Macassans



freediver wrote on Jun 1^st, 2012 at 6:44pm:

Perhaps an example might bring it back down to earth. The North American Indians were far more militant and far more skilled at warfare than the Australian Aborigines. How did that work out for them?

That comparison is not valid. In the US many native Americans were wiped out by the British & US armies, or after being defeated by the US army, transferred to reservations. British and Australian authorities did not make similar systematic efforts to wipe out Aborigines except in Tasmania. In Australia, most of the killing was done by settlers not organised militaries. Some massacres were carried out by authorities but these were localised and not systematic.

Australia's white population was also smaller than the US. By 1900 there were only about 3.7 million people on the entire continent of Australia. This compares to about 100 million living in North America.

Another difference is that the Indigenous people of North America faced a two-prong attack; White invasion, and Old World disease. The British Army actually used biological warfare against the American natives by giving them blankets infected with smallpox. This strategy would not work against the Aboriginal communities of northern Australia because they had already developed some resistance to Old World disease through centuries of foreign trade. This compare to estimates of maybe half the Indigenous population in the south of Australia dying from smallpox in 1789 at the the time of European invasion.

Muslims - utter bunch of nutcases, pretty much all of them.

Steer clear.

The Macassans developed a sense of territorial rights by negotiating Aboriginal permission to use their coasts.

When Europeans arrogantly refused to negotiate with Indigenous people affected by Macassan trade, they knew that they must defend their lands.


Indigenous people in northern coastal areas visited by Macassans were prepared to fight invaders from the earliest instances, unlike their Southern counterparts whose timidity often allowed European settlers to gain a strong foothold that made resistance more difficult. Berndt and Berndt wrote of Aboriginal resistance to invaders in Arnhem Land: ‘the history and background of this contact had shown disruption and discord since the early days of European settlement, and when the Indonesian trading was halted the whole position became accentuated.’ In Eastern Arnhem Land, in particular, Aborigines kept up hostilities with intruders, with spasmodic fighting, spearing and massacres continuing into the twentieth century:


Quote:

Today we would call such a defence “guerrilla warfare”, and perhaps look upon the defenders as patriots. The Aborigines regarded the Europeans visiting this coast as intruders, violating their territorial rights; and when strangers interfered with their womenfolk, threatened them with guns, or encroached on their reserves they responded…1

The readiness of Aborigines in Arnhem Land to aggressively defend themselves against foreigners with harmful intentions is demonstrated in John Lort Stokes’ account of what happened when Arhem Landers came to trade with the British exploration ship the Beagle in 1842, and determined that the intentions of the British explorers was not peaceful. Stokes had set out in a dinghy to intercept their canoe, but he had psoitioned the dinghy between the Arnhem Landers canoe and the shore, cutting off their potential escape route. This was perceived as a hostile act:


Quote:

One of them was a large square-headed fellow of ferocious aspect, whose countenance was lit up by a look of fierce revenge…I little thought that my pressing them would have so nearly led to fatal results… A few days after my interview…with the natives, Mr. Fitzmaurice went ashore…when on the summit of the cliffs…suddenly appeared a large party of natives with poised and quivering spears, as if about immediately to deliver them. Stamping on the ground, and shaking their heads to and fro, they threw out their long shaggy locks in a circle, whilst their glaring eyes flashed with fury as they champed and spit out the ends of their long beards. They were evidently in earnest, and bent on mischief...The foremost of this party was recognised to be the ill-looking fellow, who left me in the canoe with a revengeful scowl upon his face. 2

John Lort Stokes wrote that one of the main causes of failure of European settlement in Australi's north-west coast was Aboriginal defence of the lands.
Stokes wrote of the decision to abandon the Raffles Bay settlement in 1829:


Quote:

…The causes which led to its breaking up, are thus succinctly given by Dr. [Thomas Braidwood] Wilson. "The alleged causes were: first, the unhealthiness of the climate; secondly, the hostility of the natives… When Port Essington was located, all these had to be suffered over again"3

From earliest British contact, the Aborigines in the Arnhem Land region gained a reputation of being prepared to fight for their land and wealth. Berndt and Berndt wrote of the reputation of the coastal Arnhem Landers:


Quote:

Europeans visiting this north coast, particularly in the east and north-east, were usually careful in their dealings with the Aborigines. Most of them were in the habit of going armed, since it was generally believed that the natives were “wild” people , ready on the least provocation to spear a stranger.4

Note that Europeans deemed the Arnhem Landers as "wild", yet Macassans had been peacefully trading and making cultural exchanges with the same people for centuries.

In 1875 a member of a gold prospecting party, wrote in his journal of his group’s fear that they would be attacked by Aborigines as they sailed around the north coast of Arnhem Land:


Quote:

We heard that these were the worst black people on the whole coast.5

Northern Territory Customs collector, Alfred Searcy,  formed a similar opinion, writing in his journal:

Quote:

The black people also had to be reckoned with, for they have a bad name on this portion of the coast.6

Explorer, Matthew Flinders, also realised that the Indigenous people of Arnhem Land were not timidly going to allow invaders like those that the British had found in the south of Australia.

In 1803, when members of Flinders’ crew began cutting down vegetation without permission at Morgan Island, in Blue Mud Bay, a canoe carrying six warriors was quickly dispatched to defend their territory, and managed to spear one of the British before being dispersed by gunshot.  Flinders was surprised at the hostility:


Quote:

It does not accord with the usually timid character of the natives of Terra Australis, to suppose the Indians came over from Isle Woodah for the purpose of making an attack; yet the circumstance of their being without women or children, - their following so briskly after Mr. Westall, - and advancing armed to the wooders, all imply that they rather sought than avoided a quarrel. I can account for this unusual conduct only by supposing, that they might have had…Asiatic visitors, of whom we had found so many traces, some almost in sight of this place.7

What Flinders seems unable or unwilling to comprehend is the possibility that the Asiatic visitors may have sought permission from the owners before chopping down trees, thus setting the benchmark for behaviour expected from foreigners.

In 1866 John McKinlay’s exploration party was attacked by a large group of Aborigines in Western Arnhem Land.⁸  This was followed by the deaths of Mr Permain and Mr Boorodaile, who were were reportedly murdered by Aborigines whilst exploring the area near Port Essington in 1875,⁹  and in 1898 at King River a pair of buffalo shooters, T. Moore and K Mackenzie, were killed.¹⁰ In 1879 sea trepnager, E. O. Robinson returned from a trip to Darwin to his camp in Western Arnhem Land to find his partner Thomas Wingfield half buried nearby.¹¹  After several Europeans explorers and pastoralists had been attacked and in some cases killed in Arnhem Land during the 1870’ and 1880’s, a government report described the natives of northeast Arnhem Land as ‘numerous and dangerous.’¹²  In 1896, the ship Red Gantlet logged an Aboriginal attack in Castlereagh Bay in northeast Arnhem Land, and later the ship was reported missing altogether.¹³  A trepanger named Jim Campbell was also speared near the King River in 1913.¹⁴  In 1908, Dr Cecil Strangman, Protector of Aborigines for the Northern Territory, wrote that the natives of the Goyder River area in Castlereagh Bay ‘have gained an unenviable distinction for treachery and hostility to Europeans.’¹⁵  However, Strangman wrote that the Groote Eylandt natives had an even fiercer reputation: ‘I had been warned by Europeans that had previously visited this island that these natives were the worst and most hostile lot on the coast.’<sup>16 




1</sup>R Berndt & C Berndt, Arnhem Land: its history and its people, F. W. Cheshire, Melbourne, 1954.
²J L Stokes, Discoveries in Australia; with an account of the coasts and rivers explored and surveyed during the voyage of H.M.S. Beagle, in the years 1837-38-39-40-41-42-43, vol. II, T. and W. Boone, London, 1846
³Ibid
⁴Berndt & Berndt
⁵Journal of “Spence” kept on behalf of himself and Prospecting Party to Scott, Government Resident, Darwin, Northern Territory Incoming Correspondence
⁶A Searcy, In Northern Seas, W.K. Thomas, Adelaide, 1905.
⁷Flinders, M, A voyage to Terra Australis, vol. II, G.and W. Nicol, London, 1814.
⁸Berndt & Berndt
⁹Northern Territory Times and Gazette, 20 March 1875
¹⁰Northern Territory Times and Gazette, 16 December 1898
¹¹Berndt & Berndt
¹²Government Resident, Half-Yearly Report on Northern Territory to December 31st 1885
¹³Berndt & Berndt
¹⁴The Argus, 9 July 1913
¹⁵Berndt & Berndt
¹⁶Ibid

Falah, is it your thesis or not?


Quote:

There are a number of reasons.

The dominant one being its unsuitability for european agricultural methods. Did your thesis consider this, or conveniently ignore it? I have asked you this plenty of times. Why can you not even consider it?


Quote:

But it is no coincidence that the only large European settlement, (Darwin),  in the north-western coast of Australia is in the only fertile area in not used by Macassans

Of course it is no coincidence. The Macassans were telling everyone to hide from the white man. So when The white men settled in Darwin they stopped using it. You have a remarkable talent for getting even your own evidence backwards.

You also brush over the fact that Darwin only has 130000 people, despite being the only capital in an enourmous area of land that you claim to be fertile. Why do you think this is Falah? I'll give you a hint, it is not armies of aboriginal warriors on the outskirts of the city.


Quote:

That comparison is not valid.

And your comparison with the south of Australia is?


Quote:

Australia's white population was also smaller than the US.

So is it's pre-european native population. Both of these are down to the various practical measures of 'fertility' for European and Aboriginal lifestyles. But you did not consider this either, did you?


Quote:

Another difference is that the Indigenous people of North America faced a two-prong attack; White invasion, and Old World disease. The British Army actually used biological warfare against the American natives by giving them blankets infected with smallpox. This strategy would not work against the Aboriginal communities of northern Australia because they had already developed some resistance to Old World disease through centuries of foreign trade. This compare to estimates of maybe half the Indigenous population in the south of Australia dying from smallpox in 1789 at the the time of European invasion.

So here we have another far more rational contribution to the dominance of Europeans over aborigines in the South. Earlier you were attempting to attribute this to the lack of violence in southern aborigines. Again you demonstrate your inability to rationally interpret even your own evidence.

That is two rational explanations - farmability and disease resistance, vs one that simply does not add up - that despite the consistent trend of high European density in the south and low in the north, regardless of aboriginal population or hostility, the aborigines were somehow better off being violent towards immigrants, even though the only examples you cite of such violence are massacres of aborigines.

The reality you are incapable of facing is that Europeans went where they wanted to, and if the aborigines attacked them they were slaughtered. Few immigrants chose to go north because of the heat and difficulty with European methods up there. They still choose not to. This has absolutely nothing to do with hostility, and the cessation of hostilities between aborigines and immigrants has not changed this one bit. There are still hardly any Europeans in the far north and still hardly any going up there. Even where there is something as profitable as an enourmous mine up there, we choose to fly up and fly back rather than settle.

In Darwin, the supermarkets sell more apples than mangos.

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

Falah, is it your thesis or not?

As usual Freeliar, you continue to ask the same question over and over, despite the question already being answered.



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

Quote: There are a number of reasons. The dominant one being its unsuitability for european agricultural methods. Did your thesis consider this, or conveniently ignore it? I have asked you this plenty of times. Why can you not even consider it?

I have already told you that considered this. The land is suitable for European agricultural methods. It is much more suitable than the barren land to the south of the  Roper River that has been used by Europeans.

For example, in 1876 a gold prospecting party returned from an expedition at Blue Mud Bay in Arnhem Land without finding gold, however, the Government Resident at Darwin wrote that they had found the land in the area to be suitable for agricultural purposes.¹


If it were not suitable for agriculture, then why were so many attempts made to use it by Europeans? Why did Europeans say that it was suitable?


So there we have it an area with land suitable for farming but with a hostile Indigenous population.


What happened to areas of the Gulf of Carpentaria where the Macassans had not traded? Let's look at this 1885 letter written to a newspaper regarding what was happening in the less fertile areas of the Gulf:


Quote:

The N!ggers Again. SIR, —I have just returned from a trip to the Gulf, and while there was able to see something of the way the natives are treated. Now this way of "subduing" and "dispersing" must end very soon, or, if not, before very many years there will be none left. At present they are hunted away from their usual hunting grounds, and sent to starve along the coast, or in the ranges. The few I saw are really being slowly starved to death. If they return at any time to their own birthplace they are at once dispersed by the stockman or the police…from all I saw and heard from the black people, there are very few of each tribe left. T. S. B. 2

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

Quote: But it is no coincidence that the only large European settlement, (Darwin),  in the north-western coast of Australia is in the only fertile area in not used by Macassans Of course it is no coincidence. The Macassans were telling everyone to hide from the white man. So when The white men settled in Darwin they stopped using it. You have a remarkable talent for getting even your own evidence backwards.

Freeliar, the Macassans did not trade in the Darwin area. That is why the Europeans found it easy to invade the area.


freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

You also brush over the fact that Darwin only has 130000 people, despite being the only capital in an enourmous area of land that you claim to be fertile. Why do you think this is Falah? I'll give you a hint, it is not armies of aboriginal warriors on the outskirts of the city.

Perhaps, Freeliar, you can explain to us why Hobart or Canberra have similar populations despite being capitals.


freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

Quote: That comparison is not valid. And your comparison with the south of Australia is?

I would certainly think that the colonisation of southern Australia is a lot more relevant than a comparison with the North America



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

Quote: Australia's white population was also smaller than the US. So is it's pre-european native population. Both of these are down to the various practical measures of 'fertility' for European and Aboriginal lifestyles. But you did not consider this either, did you?

Freeliar the thesis is about Australia not North America. North America's inhabitable areas are much larger than Australia's. If we check population density, I can show estimates which would give Australia's non-desert regions higher pre-European popualtion density than North America.


freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

Quote: Another difference is that the Indigenous people of North America faced a two-prong attack; White invasion, and Old World disease. The British Army actually used biological warfare against the American natives by giving them blankets infected with smallpox. This strategy would not work against the Aboriginal communities of northern Australia because they had already developed some resistance to Old World disease through centuries of foreign trade. This compare to estimates of maybe half the Indigenous population in the south of Australia dying from smallpox in 1789 at the the time of European invasion. So here we have another far more rational contribution to the dominance of Europeans over aborigines in the South. Earlier you were attempting to attribute this to the lack of violence in southern aborigines. Again you demonstrate your inability to rationally interpret even your own evidence.

Freeliar, even if half the Indigenous population were wiped out in south-western Australia in 1789. This does not explain how the Europeans were able to extirminate the survivors over the next century and a half. Full-scale invasions of Victorian ad Queensland did not begin until at least half a century after the smallpox epidemic.

Freeliar, read account about the timidity of Aborigines in the south compared to the hostility of the Arnhem Landers as described by explorer Mathew Flinders in 1803. Flinders' report was the first comprehensive British report on the north of Australia. If you think that his reports didn't deter settlement in the region then you are dreaming.


Quote:

It does not accord with the usually timid character of the natives of Terra Australis, to suppose the Indians came over from Isle Woodah for the purpose of making an attack; yet the circumstance of their being without women or children, - their following so briskly after Mr. Westall, - and advancing armed to the wooders, all imply that they rather sought than avoided a quarrel. I can account for this unusual conduct only by supposing, that they might have had…Asiatic visitors, of whom we had found so many traces, some almost in sight of this place.3

People who were there attributed the hostility of the Arnhem Landers to the failure of all the pre-Darwin settlements.


Quote:

…The causes which led to its breaking up, are thus succinctly given by Dr. [Thomas Braidwood] Wilson. "The alleged causes were: first, the unhealthiness of the climate; secondly, the hostility of the natives… When Port Essington was located, all these had to be suffered over again"4

Darwin was established in the only area in the Northern Territory where Macassans did not visit.





freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

That is two rational explanations - farmability

Freeliar have you ever been there? Have you travelled around Australia? I have been around Australia, and I would rate Arnhem Land as being in the top 20% of Australia's farmable land in terms of rainfall and soil quality. I challenge you to provide evidence that Arnhem Land is not suitable for agriculture.



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

and disease resistance

Freeliar, let's look at disease resistance. Why were the Aborigines in the north who would be equally disease resistant due to the strong trade networks largely wiped out  in areas where the Macassans did not trade? History records the massacres that took place in these areas of the north. The most destructive disease in the North was venereal disease introduced by the Europeans - which as I explained earlier, the introduction of Islamic culture helped protect the Arnhem Landers from sexually transmitted disease.





freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

vs one that simply does not add up

You like to reach conclusion without knowing all the facts.


freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

- that despite the consistent trend of high European density in the south and low in the north

This is incorrect. Freeliar. Scholars say that that the southern population of Indigenous Australians were larger than in the north. Pardoe writes that the Indigenous population was distributed in a similar pattern to modern Australia with concentration along the Murray Darling river system.


¹No. 74 of 1876, to the Minister of Agriculture and Education, Adelaide, Northern Territory Incoming Correspondence
²The Queenslander, 12 June 1886, p.19
³  M Flinders, A voyage to Terra Australis, vol. II, G. & W. Nicol, London, 1814
⁴J L Stokes, Discoveries in Australia; with an account of the coasts and rivers explored and surveyed during the voyage of H.M.S. Beagle, in the years 1837-38-39-40-41-42-43, vol. II, T. and W. Boone, London, 1846

⁵Pardoe, C: "Becoming Australian: evolutionary processes and biological variation from ancient to modern times", Before Farming 2006, Article 4, 2004

falah wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:08am:

The Macassans developed a sense of territorial rights by negotiating Aboriginal permission to use their coasts. When Europeans arrogantly refused to negotiate with Indigenous people affected by Macassan trade, they knew that they must defend their lands.

Aboriginese were the wronged and oppressed Muslims (Palestinians, Taleban), Macassans were Al Qaeda/Mujahadeen/jihadis committed to Allah's sharia law, whites the Jews and Americans and kuffars.

To an Islamist mind, everything has always been along these sort of lines.

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 11:45am:

the aborigines were somehow better off being violent towards immigrants, even though the only examples you cite of such violence are massacres of aborigines.

Freeliar you ignore what I have already posted. Early British explorers like Mathew Flinders and John Lort Stokes had members of their crew killed. Many Europeans who tried to setlte in the area were killed by Arnhem Land Aborigines as I have previously posted:


Quote:

...In 1866 John McKinlay’s exploration party was attacked by a large group of Aborigines in Western Arnhem Land.8  This was followed by the deaths of Mr Permain and Mr Boorodaile, who were were reportedly murdered by Aborigines whilst exploring the area near Port Essington in 1875,9  and in 1898 at King River a pair of buffalo shooters, T. Moore and K Mackenzie, were killed.10 In 1879 sea trepnager, E. O. Robinson returned from a trip to Darwin to his camp in Western Arnhem Land to find his partner Thomas Wingfield half buried nearby.11  After several Europeans explorers and pastoralists had been attacked and in some cases killed in Arnhem Land during the 1870’ and 1880’s, a government report described the natives of northeast Arnhem Land as ‘numerous and dangerous.’12  In 1896, the ship Red Gantlet logged an Aboriginal attack in Castlereagh Bay in northeast Arnhem Land, and later the ship was reported missing altogether.13  A trepanger named Jim Campbell was also speared near the King River in 1913.14  In 1908, Dr Cecil Strangman, Protector of Aborigines for the Northern Territory, wrote that the natives of the Goyder River area in Castlereagh Bay ‘have gained an unenviable distinction for treachery and hostility to Europeans.’15  However, Strangman wrote that the Groote Eylandt natives had an even fiercer reputation: ‘I had been warned by Europeans that had previously visited this island that these natives were the worst and most hostile lot on the coast.’16  8Berndt & Berndt 9Northern Territory Times and Gazette, 20 March 1875 10Northern Territory Times and Gazette, 16 December 1898 11Berndt & Berndt 12Government Resident, Half-Yearly Report on Northern Territory to December 31st 1885 13Berndt & Berndt 14The Argus, 9 July 1913 15Berndt & Berndt 16Ibid

Freeliar, I have already suggested to you that you read Trudgeon's excellent book which describes the warfare between Europeans and the Yolngu people in East Arnhem Land.

I believe you to be both intellectually inadequate and too morally bankrupt to bother to read the book yourself to find the truth of the matter so I will post my own summary of the book:



Government settlement policies led to a low-level warfare being conducted in Arnhem Land in the half century prior to 1908, with all of Arnhem Land being gazetted for pastoral lease in the last twenty years of the twentieth century. In 1885, J. A. Macartney set up the Florida station in Yolngu territory in north-central Arnhem Land, and was soon shooting at any Aborigines he saw.  The Yolngu knew of guns from the Macassans; seeing that the pastoralists had guns they developed guerrilla warfare tactics to fight, killing station hands and cattle.  Mcartney abandoned the station in 1893, and the Yolngu were victorious. Several years passed before hostilities again began with the Eastern & African Cold Storage Supply Company arriving in 1903. [The company had taken lease of all eastern Arnhem Land, an area of about 50,000 square kilometres.¹]  The company approached from the south, recruiting a native police force, which would later be used to exterminate Yolngu clans to the north. including women and children.  At this point, several Yolngu clans decided to join together and attack the cattle stockmen.  The two opposing groups met in a forest where many were killed on both sides.    When the stockmen’s supply of bullets was depleted, they retreated southwards and never returned to northeast Arnhem Land again.  However, battles raged in the central and south eastern plains of Arnhem Land in the following years.   A large number of Yolngu men gravitated towards a camp east of the Arafura Swamp, from where an alliance was made to drive the stockmen out of Arnhem Land, and guerrilla war campaigns were planned.  In 1905, the company contacted the Government Resident requesting a police patrol of their northeast Arnhem Land leases.²


In 1905, the company contacted the Government Resident requesting a police patrol of their northeast Arnhem Land leases.³

Finally, in 1908, after persistent spearings of cattle, the Yolngu observed the stockmen packing up and herding their cattle out of Arnhem Land.⁴


The Yolngu credit the abandonment of cattle stations in East Arnhem Land to their ‘intense opposition to the intruders.⁵


However, even after the pastoralists finally retreated from Arnhem Land in 1908, the Arnhem Landers still had to protect their lands from poachers. I will provide a summary of Trudgeon's account of the aftermath of the retreat of the pastoralists, and the Australian government's ban on Macassan traders:

The Yolngu were victorious, but at great cost. Hostilities began again when the Macassans were banned from coming to Australian shores. European and Japanese trepangers and pearlers moved in, and the Yolngu faced a new problem. The newcomers did not behave like the Macassans;  they plundered the Yolngu coastal resources without paying compensation, and worse, often abducted and raped Yolngu women.  Yolngu would often spear and kill offending intruders, with this state of affairs continuing until the 1930’s.⁶ 



Berndt and Berndt write that this had given Arnhem Land Aborigines a reputation amongst Whites of being “savage and warlike.”

US anthropologist, W L Warner, visiting Arnhem Land in the late 1920’s wrote that ‘the killing of several whites and Japanese has put a heavy fear in the hearts of all intruders into these parts.’⁷

Arnhem Land had still not lost its reputation for a being a dangerous place for intruders when anthropologist Donald Thomson visited in the late 1930’s: ‘I was warned on all sides that it meant certain death to enter the area alone’<sup>8



1</sup>Cole K, A History of Numbulwar: the story of an Aboriginal community in Eastern Arnhem Land, 1952-1982, Keith Cole Publications, Bendigo, 1982, p.14.
²R, Trudgen, Why Warriors Lie Down and Die: towards an understanding of why the Aboriginal people of Arnhem Land face the greatest crisis in health and education since European contact, Aboriginal Resources and Development Services, Darwin, 2000
³Berndt & Berndt
⁴McMillan, A, An Intruder’s Guide to East Arnem Land, Duffy & Snellgrove, Potts Point, 2001.
⁵M Dreyfus, & M Dhulumburrk, Submission to Aboriginal Land Commissioner regarding control of entry onto seas adjoining Aboriginal land in the Milingimbi, Crocodile Islands and Glyde River area, Northern Land Council, Northern Land Council, Darwin, 1980
⁶Trudgeon
⁷Warner, W L, A Black Civilization: A study of an Australian tribe, Harper Torchwood, New York, 1964
⁸Thomson, D, Arnhem Land: explorations among an unknown people, Geographical Journal, Vol. 112, 1948

Quote:

For example, in 1876 a gold prospecting party returned from an expedition at Blue Mud Bay in Arnhem Land without finding gold, however, the Government Resident at Darwin wrote that they had found the land in the area to be suitable for agricultural purposes.

Interesting that you choose this claim over the reality that the land has never reached the potential you claim it has, regardless of the hostility of the aborigines. Your own examples demonstrate the mistakes made in attempting to turn the land into european style farms, but as usual you get your own evidence backwards. You don't need someone from 1876 with zero experience in tropical agriculture to tell you whether the land is suitable. you just need to open your eyes.


Quote:

If it were not suitable for agriculture, then why were so many attempts made to use it by Europeans? Why did Europeans say that it was suitable?

Because they were wrong. Again, you get your own example backwards. The failures to convert this land, even today when there is no hostility, demonstrates it lack of suitability.


Quote:

What happened to areas of the Gulf of Carpentaria where the Macassans had not traded? Let's look at this 1885 letter

Why don't you open your eyes instead and see the evidence right there in front of you, without rose tinted glasses - there is almost no-one up there. The land is still some of the least productive non-desert land in Australia. You need a 4WD to get there. Again, you merely demonstrate how blind Islam makes you to the reality in front of you and how it makes you unable to objectively interpret your own evidence.

I don't know what University awarded a thesis to you for your BS, but I hope it was one of those imaginary internet ones.

Falah didn't you also claim to have been up North? How could you possibly spend any time at all up there without noticing this? Did you fly into Darwin, drive out to one aboriginal camp, then straight back to a basement in Adelaide or something?

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 1:30pm:

Quote: . [quote]If it were not suitable for agriculture, then why were so many attempts made to use it by Europeans? Why did Europeans say that it was suitable? Because they were wrong. Again, you get your own example backwards. The failures to convert this land, even today when there is no hostility, demonstrates it lack of suitability.

Freeliar, you have failed to provide any evidence that Arnhem Land is not suitable for farming. Considering that the land to the west and far more barren lands to the south and east are used for agriculture I would like to know how you determined this.


Quote:

What happened to areas of the Gulf of Carpentaria where the Macassans had not traded? Let's look at this 1885 letter

Why don't you open your eyes instead and see the evidence right there in front of you, without rose tinted glasses - there is almost no-one up there. The land is still some of the least productive non-desert land in Australia. You need a 4WD to get there. Again, you merely demonstrate how blind Islam makes you to the reality in front of you and how it makes you unable to objectively interpret your own evidence.
[/quote]

Freeliar, Arnhem Land is the greenest part of the Gulf of Carpentaria coast. Yet where are all the cattle stations? Outside of Arnhem Land!

http://kernow.curtin.edu.au/www/Agrirobot1/map.gif


I have been all over Australia Freeliar. Even to the the middle, and I have found cattle stations in this inhospitable environment.

There are even cattle stations next to Lak Eyre which is dried up on average 29 out of every 30 years.

Arnhem Land is green and close to the sea. Makes much more sense to have a cattle station there than in the deserts of central Australia don't you think?

Attached is a map of Australia's population density per square kilometer. As you can see (if you open your eyes) the only place that is less densely populated than the entire tropical north is the arid desert. It is hardly the fertile crescent Falah makes it out to be - at least not in terms of European farming methods. This area of low population stretches almost all the way from Cairns to Perth. The dot at the top of the NT is Darwin - population 130 thousand.

If you restricted the data to immigrants of European descent, it would look even emptier, if that is possible.

You can clearly see the band of high population density. This is clearly not dictated by friendly natives, but by the suitability of the land for European farming methods. Even the widespread use of air conditioning won't get white people to live in the far north.

Perhaps Falah can point out on the map where hostile aborigines kept the immigrants at bay.

---

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 1:37pm:

Falah didn't you also claim to have been up North? How could you possibly spend any time at all up there without noticing this? Did you fly into Darwin, drive out to one aboriginal camp, then straight back to a basement in Adelaide or something?

Freeliar, I have driven around Australia. I have driven to Lake Eyre, I have driven to Ayres Rock. I have driven from Melbourne to Perth across the Nullarbor. I have driven the entire East coast from Melbourne to the Cape Tribulation. I have driven from Townsville to Darwin. I have driven from Darwin to Adelaide. I have seen from Melbourne to Darwin. I have driven up the Western coast. I have driven to the East coast of the Northern Territory. I have driven to Arnhem Land.

There are almost no towns in this country that I have not driven to.

I have camped in Arnhem Land. I have seen its plains its hills, its swamps. I have seen its beautiful waterfalls. I have seen the ancient Aboriginal rock art.

I believe that it is you Freeliar, who are the ignorant one, who likes to make lots of claims based on no knowledge.

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:00pm:

Attached is a map of Australia's population density per square kilometer.

I will let you in on a little secret Freeliar. Population density does not prove one way or the other the agricultural potential of land.

The stupidity of you using that maps is obvious.

Arnhem Land is the same colour on that map as much of the farmland around the Murray and Darling Rivers! Why is that Freeliar?

Falah, please draw some lines on that map showing where the hostile armies of muslim-influenced aborigines kept the white farmers at bay.


Quote:

I will let you in on a little secret Freeliar. Population density does not prove one way or the other the agricultural potential of land.

It is a far better indicator than your magic arm waving logic. Look at the south east. The population density is an excellent predictor where European farming methods are profitable.


Quote:

Arnhem Land is the same colour on that map as much of the farmland around the Murray and Darling Rivers! Why is that Freeliar?

You have to go a long way inland to get a population density that low. The reason of course is that the river system drains a lot of arid desert.

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:14pm:

Falah, please draw some lines on that map showing where the hostile armies of muslim-influenced aborigines kept the white farmers at bay.

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/images/land-use-northern-territory.gif

This map shows the Aboriginal Land around the fertile coast in the Northern Territory


freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:14pm:

Quote: I will let you in on a little secret Freeliar. Population density does not prove one way or the other the agricultural potential of land. It is a far better indicator than your magic arm waving logic. Look at the south east. The population density is an excellent predictor where European farming methods are profitable.

How so. Most farming areas have low population densities.


Quote:

Arnhem Land is the same colour on that map as much of the farmland around the Murray and Darling Rivers! Why is that Freeliar?

You have to go a long way inland to get a population density that low. The reason of course is that the river system drains a lot of arid desert.[/quote]

I have been to those ares Freeliar and seen plenty of farms in the Mildura and Swan Hill areas on the Victorian NSW border which is shown in themap as having the same colour as Arnhem Land.

In fact I have visited much of the areas on the map that are given this yellow colour , and found that it is nearly all agricultural Land.

I have even visited much of the lowest density coloured areas (green) and found that there cattle stations on much of this land as well.

Travel Australia, and you will find cattle stations on most of the land not occupied by other farming. It is usually only in harsh deserts or mountains that you find no agriculture. Arnhem Land is neither desert or mountain.

Quote:

This map shows the Aboriginal Land around the fertile coast in the Northern Territory

Can you mark the locations of the hostile aboriginal tribes that kept the white farmers at bay?


Quote:

How so. Most farming areas have low population densities.

You are confusing the stereotype with the reality. Have you ever heard people complaining about urbanisation replacing some of our most productive farmlands? The cities spring up in suitable locations that are surrounded by a high population density of farmers. In general, the smaller the farms, the more farmers there are, and the bigger the nearby cities and towns are. This is also clearly demonstrated on the map.

If you also plotted farm profit per unit area of land, the map would look almost idential to the one of population density.


Quote:

I have been to those ares Freeliar and seen plent of farms in the Mildura and Swan Hill areas

You mean right beside that red dot on the map? Tell me Falah, how many red dots do you see in the Northern Territory, or anywhere between the centres of Cairns and Perth? You can include Darwin if you want.

Falah's thesis:

---

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:37pm:

Quote: This map shows the Aboriginal Land around the fertile coast in the Northern Territory Can you mark the locations of the hostile aboriginal tribes that kept the white farmers at bay?

http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/59/22959-004-70091ED7.gif

In this map, the Yuulngu tribe is shown in the northeast corner of Arnhem Land. They were the most succesful tribe in resisting European invasion, but there are other tribes in other areas which also managed to stave off invasion.



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:37pm:

Quote: How so. Most farming areas have low population densities. You are confusing the stereotype with the reality. Have you ever heard people complaining about urbanisation replacing some of our most productive farmlands?

This really has nothing to do with determining farming potential of land.



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:37pm:

The cities spring up in suitable locations that are surrounded by a high population density of farmers.

You seem ignorant of a lot of reality Freeliar. Many of Australia's cities were developed as convict holding centres. Some like Melbourne,  Ballarat, Cooktown, Kalgoorlie grew out of gold rushes. Canberra grew because of Federal funding.

Anyway, there are actually cities and towns that are in the same density on the map as Arnhem Land. Mildura, Robinvale, Swan Hill are in the yellow area like Arnhem Land. Those cities I mentioned are in some of the main citrus-producing areas in Australia.






freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:37pm:

In general, the smaller the farms, the more farmers there are, and the bigger the nearby cities and towns are. This is also clearly demonstrated on the map.

Freeliar this is hardly relevant. There are cattle stations in the middle of Australia in what most of us would consider desert. If a cattle station can make money there, why not in green Arnhem Land?



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:37pm:

If you also plotted farm profit per unit area of land, the map would look almost idential to the one of population density.

Ahhhh. Profit! So you acknowledge that the yellow areas are profitable? Or else why are there farms there?




freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 2:37pm:

Quote: I have been to those ares Freeliar and seen plent of farms in the Mildura and Swan Hill areas You mean right beside that red dot on the map? Tell me Falah, how many red dots do you see in the Northern Territory, or anywhere between the centres of Cairns and Perth? You can include Darwin if you want.

Freeliar, the red dot is no where near Mildura, Swan Hill or Robinvale. Looks more like Ouyen to me. Anyway the yellow areas are nearly all farmland - except for Arnhem Land.

Quote:

In this map, the Yuulngu tribe is shown in the northeast corner of Arnhem Land.

I see. Can you explain why the movement of white people into the area appears to have nothing at all to do with the land you claim was controlled by hostile aborigines? Doesn't it look more like the hostility of the aborigines was protected by their remoteness, rather than the other way round?


Quote:

Freeliar this is hardly relevant. There are cattle stations in the middle of Australia in what most of us would consider desert. If a cattle station can make money there, why not in green Arnhem Land?

I'll give you a hint Falah, how big does the station have to be in order to stay afloat? It is hardly going to support a high population density, and is only possible because of the ease with which you can maintain such a large area of land out there. Did you know that a lot of these farms are becoming less profitable? Some are even collapsing completely and no-one is bothering to farm the land. And no, this is not because of hostile aborigines driving them off the land.


Quote:

Freeliar, the red dot is no where near Mildura, Swan Hill or Robinvale. Looks more like Ouyen to me.

Populations:
Ouyen:      1 000
Mildura:   30 000
Swan Hill: 10 000

The red area represents densities of 1 000  to 10 000 people per square kilometer.

Once more, Falah provides evidence that contradicts what he is trying to say. The entire population of the Northern Territory is 230 000. Only about 100 000 of these live outside of Darwin, and a lot of these would be aborigines.

In contrast, Falah gives the example of the small country town of Mildura - population 30 000, or roughly one third of the NT population outside of Darwin. How many such towns could there be in the NT, even if just in the areas with friendly aborigines?

To what does Falah credit the large population in Mildura? - the suitability of the area for growing citrus.

Tell me Falah, whose argument does this back up?

Do you really think the aborigines from the Mildura area would have benefitted from being violent towards European immigrants?

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 3:02pm:

Quote: In this map, the Yuulngu tribe is shown in the northeast corner of Arnhem Land. I see. Can you explain why the movement of white people into the area appears to have nothing at all to do with the land you claim was controlled by hostile aborigines? Doesn't it look more like the hostility of the aborigines was protected by their remoteness, rather than the other way round?

Freeliar, the middle of Australia is actually just as remote and less hospitable country, yet you will find cattle stations even there in the desert. Why no cattle stations in green Arnhem Land?



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 3:02pm:

Quote: Freeliar this is hardly relevant. There are cattle stations in the middle of Australia in what most of us would consider desert. If a cattle station can make money there, why not in green Arnhem Land? I'll give you a hint Falah, how big does the station have to be in order to stay afloat? It is hardly going to support a high population density, and is only possible because of the ease with which you can maintain such a large area of land out there. Did you know that a lot of these farms are becoming less profitable? Some are even collapsing completely and no-one is bothering to farm the land. And no, this is not because of hostile aborigines driving them off the land.

The fact is Freeliar that people Europeans have dispossesed Aborigines in less fertile land than Arnhem Land and set up cattle stations. Arnhem Land is huge could support a lot of cattle. Yet strangely no cattle station there.

Arnhem Land is 100,000 km². The country is somewhat similar to that shown on the TV show Keeping Up With The Jones'. That family owned only 5000 km2 of land near the NT/WA border. Looked they were doing well. They can even afford multiple helicopters and lots of equipment, must be profitable.


Quote:

New outback drama: Keeping Up With The Joneses http://tvweek.ninemsn.com.au/img/blog/jones.jpg http://tvweek.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx?blogentryid=715100&showcomments=true

Quote:

Freeliar, the red dot is no where near Mildura, Swan Hill or Robinvale. Looks more like Ouyen to me.

Populations:
Ouyen:      1 000
Mildura:   30 000
Swan Hill: 10 000

The red area represents densities of 1 000  to 10 000 people per square kilometer.[/quote]


So why is Mildura and Swan Hill not represented then? Did you provide a dodgy map? I know the area well, and I can tell you that the red dot is not where Mildura or Swan Hill is.

Quote:

So why is Mildura and Swan Hill not represented then? Did you provide a dodgy map? I know the area well, and I can tell you that the red dot is not where Mildura or Swan Hill is.

Once again you completely miss the point on both counts Falah. So what if the dot on the map is out by a millimeter? The nearest big population of European immigrants is on the east coast of Queensland.


Quote:

That family owned only 5000 km2 of land near the NT/WA border.

Only? That's like 100km long by 50km wide. Most areas near the east coast would fit a few separate towns into that, all ultimately  supported by the land, and that's out in the grazing country. The three towns you gave as examples - Mildura, Robin Vale and Swan Hill are only about 100km away from each other, and they are the bigger towns in the area. Yet up there it can only support one family and a few part time employees. Once again your example merely demonstrates your inability to make sense of what is right in front of you.

Where did you get that figure of 5000 km2 from?

Do you think you could muster with a helicopter on the nothern tip of the NT?

freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 5:12pm:

Quote: So why is Mildura and Swan Hill not represented then? Did you provide a dodgy map? I know the area well, and I can tell you that the red dot is not where Mildura or Swan Hill is. Once again you completely miss the point on both counts Falah. So what if the dot on the map is out by a millimeter? The nearest big population of European immigrants is on the east coast of Queensland.

I guess your limited intelligence just wont get it.

The Arnhem Land area has a higher population density than many areas which have cattle stations. How can that be Freediver? If places with lower population de3nsity have catlle stations, then surely Arnhem Land could support cattle - according to your logic.



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 5:12pm:

Quote: That family owned only 5000 km2 of land near the NT/WA border. Only? That's like 100km long by 50km wide.

Yes, but Arnhem Land is about 20 times bigger, and of similar type of land. Therefore Arnhem Land should be able to support at least 20 of these profitable cattle stations.



freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 5:12pm:

Most areas near the east coast would fit a few separate towns into that, all ultimately  supported by the land

So I guess you haven't driven across the Nullarbor Plain, which is more than 1000 km across the coast and all you see in it is the one roadhouse.




freediver wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 5:12pm:

and that's out in the grazing country. The three towns you gave as examples - Mildura, Robin Vale and Swan Hill are only about 100km away from each other, and they are the bigger towns in the area. Yet up there it can only support one family and a few part time employees. Once again your example merely demonstrates your inability to make sense of what is right in front of you.

Different type of land use Freeliar. Cattle grazing uses much more land than irrigated orchard farms.

But judging by the barren lands to the south, Arnhem Land should be able to support hundreds of thousands of cattle.

http://greycliffspermaculture.com/pic_news_land_use_plan_cows_map.jpg


This map shows that all the northern coast is grazed by cattle - except the areas where Macassans traded in Arnhem Land and the Kimberley. The red areas are those lands used primarily for cattle grazing:

http://www.cossa.csiro.au/lb/lbbook/range/landuse.gif

Macassan atrefacts and their tamarind trees are found in across Arnehm Land, West of Darwin and around the Kimberley coasts. None of these areas where evidence of Macassans has been found have cattle grazing.


This map shows how Arnhem Land is one of the more fertile areas of Australia:

http://www.diamantina-tour.com.au/maps/australia_deserts/arid_zone.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LS7oMXFB0Q

Aboriginals just luuuvvv muslims

Quote:

The Arnhem Land area has a higher population density than many areas which have cattle stations. How can that be Freediver? If places with lower population de3nsity have catlle stations, then surely Arnhem Land could support cattle - according to your logic.

No Falah, that is not what I am saying. I am not attempting the rpedict the rpesence of cattle stations.


Quote:

Different type of land use Freeliar. Cattle grazing uses much more land than irrigated orchard farms

And it is a lower value use of the land. That is why the graph of cattle density has no apparent correlation with land value, productivity, population density etc. It effectively shows the margins between high value land that is put to better use and low value land that is not much use for anything. Once again your evidence contradicts what you say, but you cannot see it.

If you want a representaive plot of farmability, plot the profitability per unit area. You will find that this is the single most reliable indicator of population density, other than population density itself. Variations can be easily put down to things like mining, government spending (capital cities, including Darwin) and tourism (beach areas backed by otherwise useless swamps). Hostile aborigines does not even make it onto the list.


Quote:

But judging by the barren lands to the south, Arnhem Land should be able to support hundreds of thousands of cattle.

Are you suggesting the aborigines fought cattle? Can you explain your logic that the barren land indicates there should be lots of cattle nearby? Your own red and yellow map shows that cattle grazing areas are more common in the semi arid region.


Quote:

Yes, but Arnhem Land is about 20 times bigger, and of similar type of land

So it is flat and does not need clearing to raise cattle? Do you have any idea what cattle farming is like? Wet tropical areas introduce all sorts of problems.


Quote:

Therefore Arnhem Land should be able to support at least 20 of these profitable cattle stations.

Wow, even under your best estimate, we get 20 profitable farms, in an area that would support hundreds of thousands of in the south.


Quote:

This map shows how Arnhem Land is one of the more fertile areas of Australia

Again Falah, this is about European farming methods, not 'fertility' in some abstract sense. It's not like I haven't mentioned this before. Tropical coastlines like in the NT are about as far removed as you can get from European farming methods.

Quote:

The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia.

Quote:

The Yolngu had seen white Dutch in their travels to Indonesia. They had been told to be wary of the whites, and knew they needed to resist them, and they knew how to deal with them.

Quote:

Indigenous people in northern coastal areas visited by Macassans were prepared to fight invaders from the earliest instances, unlike their Southern counterparts whose timidity often allowed European settlers to gain a strong foothold that made resistance more difficult.

Falah, you seem to have fallen silent on your theory that southern aborigines would have been better off if they had been slightly more capable of putting up violent resistance to immigrants. Have you changed your mind?

Quote:

The contact between Macassan traders and Aborigines took place over a long time and was geographically widespread, although more concentrated in areas like East Arnhem Land and Napier Broome Bay.

Is that Broome Falah? How does your theory work out there?


Quote:

Several accounts of large scale massacres of Aboriginal people and atrocities have been recorded by historians as occurring during the tenure of the company in the area (Dewar 1985). It seems likely that these pastoralists faced increasing hostility from local Aboriginal people, and this forced them to abandon the enterprise.

Can you explain how massacaring aborigines helped the aborigines and drove the white people off? It hardly sounds like a successful strategy to me on the part of the aborigines.


Quote:

Described a very good run of blacks (in the Gulf of Carpentaria as well as I could make out) who wore clothes spoke a little Malay…never stole from them and made themselves useful in various ways

Yeah, real hostile....


Quote:

Berndt recorded that the Yolngu people informed him that the Macassans had given this warning: “Go back into the bush out of the way of...(Europeans) for they might come and fight us.” 3

Can you explain how this helped the aborigines repel them?


Quote:

In Eastern Arnhem Land, in particular, Aborigines kept up hostilities with intruders, with spasmodic fighting, spearing and massacres continuing into the twentieth century:

Massacres of who?


Quote:

The causes which led to its breaking up, are thus succinctly given by Dr. [Thomas Braidwood] Wilson. "The alleged causes were: first, the unhealthiness of the climate; secondly, the hostility of the natives…

I see - climate first eh?

Quote:

Arnhem Land is green and close to the sea. Makes much more sense to have a cattle station there than in the deserts of central Australia don't you think?

No Falah, Your own evidence, eg the yellow and red map contradicts this.

BTW, here is the governmentsite where you got some of your maps from.

http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/land/landuse/nt/index.html

Here is the full map of the NT:

http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/land/images/maps/state/nt/lu_landuse.gif

Do you notice the enourmous area to the south that is also allocated to other protected areas including indigenous use. Is that also because of the violent aborigines?What about all the other large areas outside of the areas you are attributing to aboriginal hostility?

Note also that the original version also includes the indices for the coloured areas you left out of your edited version. Why did you leave them out?

Attached is a zoomed in version around Darwin.

Of particular interest are the significant areas along the coast immediately adjacent to Darwin - the area you claim was not affected by maccassans - marked as minimal use.

How do you explain that, given the enourmous areas of consistent cattle grazing further south, other than the obvious explanation that the land is either unsuitable for grazing or only borderline?

Can you also explain the enourmous contiguous area of nature conservation between Darwin and the Yolngu area, assigned to neither farming nor aboriginal communities? This would not even be possible unless the area was either completely unprofitable or only marginally suitable to farming.

The only rational interpretation of the evidence is that the remoteness of the area permitted the aborigines to be hostile without being wiped out, rather than the other way round.

---

freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Quote: The Arnhem Land area has a higher population density than many areas which have cattle stations. How can that be Freediver? If places with lower population de3nsity have catlle stations, then surely Arnhem Land could support cattle - according to your logic. No Falah, that is not what I am saying. I am not attempting the rpedict the rpesence of cattle stations.

Freeliar, your argument is that Arnhem Land cannot support farming. You still have not provided any evidence to support such a claim despite every similar area in Australia being farmed in Australia.

Every part of mainland Australia except the harshest deserts and has been used for grazing or farming apart from the areas where Macassans traded.

Arnhem land gets plenty of rain and is rather green. So why could

Freeliar, Why could Arnhem Land not be used for farming by Europeans when surrounding areas are?




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Quote: Different type of land use Freeliar. Cattle grazing uses much more land than irrigated orchard farms And it is a lower value use of the land. That is why the graph of cattle density has no apparent correlation with land value, productivity, population density etc. It effectively shows the margins between high value land that is put to better use and low value land that is not much use for anything.

I can't believe how dumb you are Freediver. Can't you see that the existance of cattle station across northern Australia - which have existed for over a century - demonstrates that this land is profitable?

If you can put lots of cattle on barren land, then you can surely put lots more cattle on the green fertile area of Arnhem Land. How can your feeble mind not grasp this.

Cattle stations make profits in deserts, yet you think that they cannot make profits in a green area that receives lots of rain. How is that logical? Do you realise how retarded you are?





freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

If you want a representaive plot of farmability, plot the profitability per unit area. You will find that this is the single most reliable indicator of population density, other than population density itself.

I can't believe that you are so retarded that you cannot even grasp the fact that population density has nothing to do with it.

The population density in Arnhem Land is similar to that of much of Australia's agricultural land.

Furthermore, population density does not determine the viability of farmland.

In less densely populated areas, farms just get bigger. Big farms can still be profitable. Can you understand this simple fact?




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Quote: But judging by the barren lands to the south, Arnhem Land should be able to support hundreds of thousands of cattle. Are you suggesting the aborigines fought cattle?

It was part of the guerilla war strategy to spear as many cattle of the invaders as possible in Arnhem Land. But I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.



freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Can you explain your logic that the barren land indicates there should be lots of cattle nearby?

If cattle stations can exist on more barren lands than Arnhem Land then surely cattle can survive in Arnhem Land. Do your tiny brain not comprehend simple logic?




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Your own red and yellow map shows that cattle grazing areas are more common in the semi arid region.

Why is that Freeliar? Because cattle are the only type of agriculture understood to work in these areas by Europeans. Cattle are reared all over Australia, but in semi-arid areas only cattle station are profitable. If cattle stations can make profits in semi-arid areas surely they could be profitable in green Arnhem Land, can not your tiny brain process this?




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Quote: Yes, but Arnhem Land is about 20 times bigger, and of similar type of land So it is flat and does not need clearing to raise cattle?

Freeliar Arnhem Land is larger than Tasmania, it is almost half the size of Victoria. Most of Arnhem Land is fairly flat.

Europeans have cleared most of the forests in Victoria to make way for farms. Same could have been done in Arnhem Land. However, Arnhem Land is not as densely forested as southeast Australia, cearing land is not as much of an issue. The pastoralists who attempted to graze cattle in Arnhem Land did not clear the land before putting cattle on it.




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Do you have any idea what cattle farming is like? Wet tropical areas introduce all sorts of problems.

Freeliar, I have been to cattle farms in Indonesia. If they can farm cattle there, then cattle can be farmed in Arnhem Land which receives less rain. I have seen plenty of cattle station in Far North Queensland which has a similar climate to Arnhem Land.




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Quote: Therefore Arnhem Land should be able to support at least 20 of these profitable cattle stations. Wow, even under your best estimate, we get 20 profitable farms, in an area that would support hundreds of thousands of in the south.

No, dumbass, that was minimum, based on a very large farm in a similar climate. Sadly it seems that your feeble mind cannot even grasp the meaning of "at least".




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 10:41am:

Quote: This map shows how Arnhem Land is one of the more fertile areas of Australia Tropical coastlines like in the NT are about as far removed as you can get from European farming methods.

So are the semi-arid regions of Australia but you still find Europeans farming there.

Freeliar have you even been to the NT? I have seen plenty of farms up there.

Cattle stations, mango farms, cucumber farms, fruit farms, berry farms, grain farms, nut farms, vineyards, citrus farms. It all there Freediver.

http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/agriculture/statistics/nt/index.html

freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 11:49am:

Quote: Arnhem Land is green and close to the sea. Makes much more sense to have a cattle station there than in the deserts of central Australia don't you think? Here is the full map of the NT: http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/land/images/maps/state/nt/lu_landuse.gif Do you notice the enourmous area to the south that is also allocated to other protected areas including indigenous use. Is that also because of the violent aborigines?What about all the other large areas outside of the areas you are attributing to aboriginal hostility?

Freeliar, the large Aboriginal reserve in the south of the NT is a desert. Ever heard of the Tanami Desert? It has been left to the Indigenous people because it is desert.




freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 11:49am:

Note also that the original version also includes the indices for the coloured areas you left out of your edited version. Why did you leave them out?

because I got it from a different website dumbass.



freediver wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 11:49am:

Attached is a zoomed in version around Darwin. Of particular interest are the significant areas along the coast immediately adjacent to Darwin - the area you claim was not affected by maccassans - marked as minimal use.

Darwin is surrounded by swamp dumbass, why do you think the Macassans didn't bother to land there? Why do you think Darwin was the last choice for settlement after three attempts were botched elsewhere due to hostile Aborigines at Fort Dundas, Port Essington and Raffles bay.


This map shows swamplands in northern Australia. Note the area around Darwin surrounded by swamps

http://ausgrass2.myspecies.info/sites/ausgrass2.myspecies.info/files/u12/1ormer.gif

Quote:

Freeliar, your argument is that Arnhem Land cannot support farming.

No it isn't. It is more subtle than that.


Quote:

You still have not provided any evidence to support such a claim despite every similar area in Australia being farmed in Australia.

You yourself posted a map showing large areas immediately adjacent to Darwin that are not farmed. Of course you left out the bit of the index that indicated this. Was that a conscious choice?


Quote:

Every part of mainland Australia except the harshest deserts and has been used for grazing or farming apart from the areas where Macassans traded.

Not true. There are plenty of other areas. Like areas around Darwin, they are clearly unsuitable for farming.


Quote:

Arnhem land gets plenty of rain and is rather green. So why could

Like I said, european farming methods are not ideal for tropical coastlines.


Quote:

I can't believe how dumb you are Freediver. Can't you see that the existance of cattle station across northern Australia - which have existed for over a century - demonstrates that this land is profitable?

Some of it is marginally profitable - hence the extremely low population density. Some, like a lot of areas near Darwin which are similar to the yolngu areas, are still not profitable even with modern technology and a gradual shift towards adopting tropical farming methods.


Quote:

If you can put lots of cattle on barren land, then you can surely put lots more cattle on the green fertile area of Arnhem Land. How can your feeble mind not grasp this.

It is simply not true Falah. The areas in question are unsuiitable for grazing. The drier land to the south is actually more sutiable, and even there it is only marginally suitable - hence the 5000km2 farms. Your own evidence supports my argument on this.


Quote:

Cattle stations make profits in deserts, yet you think that they cannot make profits in a green area that receives lots of rain. How is that logical? Do you realise how retarded you are?

Falah, green on an areal map does not mean good grazing country. Yours is an incredibly naive approach to assessing farmability. There are all sorts of problems up north, which is why the drier areas were converted to grazing more unifromly, whereas large areas just near Darwin are not farmed at all.


Quote:

I can't believe that you are so retarded that you cannot even grasp the fact that population density has nothing to do with it.

But it does Falah. Repeating yourself won't change the facts. Farm profitability per unit area and population density are very closely linked. It is the closest predictor of population density you will find. How you managed to write a thesis on it without finding this out is beyond me.


Quote:

The population density in Arnhem Land is similar to that of much of Australia's agricultural land.

It is similar to much of the marginal land. How many 5000km2 farms do you think there are around the south east coast? How far do you think you have to go from Melbourne to get one that big? Your own example of Mildura disproves your argument - a single inland country town, credited by you to citrus, with a population of one third of the NT's population outside of Darwin, including non-europeans.


Quote:

Furthermore, population density does not determine the viability of farmland.

Duh. It is the other way round. Surely you considered this in your thesis. Farmability determines population density. I challenge you to find any other factor that comes even close to farmability as a predictor of population density.


Quote:

In less densely populated areas, farms just get bigger. Big farms can still be profitable. Can you understand this simple fact?

Sure. It is the interpretation of the fact that you get backwards. Farms don't get bigger in response to low population density. They have to start out bigger merely to survive, and the lack of people in the area (again due to lack of farmability) makes this possible.


Quote:

If cattle stations can exist on more barren lands than Arnhem Land then surely cattle can survive in Arnhem Land. Do your tiny brain not comprehend simple logic?

It is the farms as an economic unit that need to survive. The drier lands further south are better for cattle farming and your own evidence shows this.


Quote:

Because cattle are the only type of agriculture understood to work in these areas by Europeans.

No Falah. It is one of the lowest value uses of land - often bordered by 'minimal use' land - like thos areas around Darwin. It is what people do with land that they can't put to more valuable uses like cropping, unless it is too dry.


Quote:

Europeans have cleared most of the forests in Victoria to make way for farms.

Because victoria is far more similar to the land the immigrants farmed in the old country.


Quote:

No, dumbass, that was minimum, based on a very large farm in a similar climate.

A 'minimum' of twenty family farms in an area the size of Tasmania? Are you sure you are not overstating the huge potential of this area?


Quote:

Freeliar, the large Aboriginal reserve in the south of the NT is a desert. Ever heard of the Tanami Desert? It has been left to the Indigenous people because it is desert.

Because it is unsuitable for farming. Just like the Yolngu areas, and areas just outside of Darwin.


Quote:

because I got it from a different website dumbass

Which one? Why did they leave out the index when the regions are present in the area they showed?


Quote:

This map shows swamplands in northern Australia. Note the area around Darwin surrounded by swamps

Where is it from? It is based on reported swamps, in which case the data may merely reflect awareness. It is hardly a complete survey of swampland.

Quote:

The contact between Macassan traders and Aborigines took place over a long time and was geographically widespread, although more concentrated in areas like East Arnhem Land and Napier Broome Bay.

Is that Broome Falah? How does your theory work out there?

Falah, you seem to have fallen silent on your theory that southern aborigines would have been better off if they had been slightly more capable of putting up violent resistance to immigrants. Have you changed your mind?

Converstations with you just seem to go around in circles Freeliar. So I will just makes some statements based on fact.

*Freeliar does not seem to have visited Arnhem Land

*Freeliar has expressed no expertise in determining the farmability of land.

*In the 19th century, many people that visited Arnhem Land believed it would be suitable for farming.

*Arnhem Land is mostly flat forested area which receives high levels of rain.

*Cattle stations have been established in much drier areas to the immediate south of Arnhem Land.

*Many cattle stations have been established in tropical areas which receive similar amounts of rain to Arnhem Land

*There are successful cattle farms in other places which are more tropical like Indonesia.

*Many attempts were made to settle in Arnhem Land.

*Many attempts were made to graze cattle in Arnhem Land, and establish other businesses.

* All attempts to settle the Arnhem Land failed, at least in part, due to the hostility of the Indigenous people. This is demonstrated in the newspapers, journals, and official corresponddence of Europeans as well as anecdotal evidence from Indigenous tribes.

*As a last resort, Europeans settled for Darwin, which is surrounded by swampland.

*Macassans did not establish a strong presence in the Darwin area probably due to the difficult swampy and inaccessible coastal areas.

* Most of Anrhem Land is not swampy - unlike the area around Darwin.

*Despite all historical reports indicating that Arnhem was considered suitable for farming, Freeliar says it is not.

*Freeliar likes to make statements which are not supported by evidence.

*Freeliar is a liar as demonstrated in dozens of posts on Ozpolitics.

The APY lands in northern SA are quite beautiful and are sitting on many billions of dollars of resources.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2861904-16x9-940x529.jpg

Quote:

*Freeliar has expressed no expertise in determining the farmability of land.

Falah has repeatedly demonstated complete lack of comprehension of the concept of farmability, how it relates to European immigrants and European farming methods, and how it relates to population density.


Quote:

*In the 19th century, many people that visited Arnhem Land believed it would be suitable for farming.

Many people who actually attempted it believed it was not suitable. The CSIRO has done a lot of good work on this. Instead of actually using the information available, Falah dug up a letter from the 1800s from a man who decided it was suitable for farming (based on no experience in tropical agriculture), and relied on this letter and the colour of the land on google earth. He effectively equated the potential for european farming methods of tropical mangrove swamps and prime agricultural land in the south east of the country.


Quote:

*Cattle stations have been established in much drier areas to the immediate south of Arnhem Land.

Falah also appears to think that rainfall the the primary indicator of suitability for grazing, despite the clear patterns of a preference for grazing the middle band the NT, and the obvious problems experienced by european graziers in the wet tropics.


Quote:

* All attempts to settle the Arnhem Land failed, at least in part, due to the hostility of the Indigenous people.

Some of Falah's own evidence, based on the experience of farmers, shows that the primary reason was climate.


Quote:

*Despite all historical reports indicating that Arnhem was considered suitable for farming, Freeliar says it is not.

That is because I rely on actual evidence and experience, which is plentiful, not predictions made by uninformed europeans before the farming was actually attempted. It does not take a genius to figure this out, just an honest assessment of the evidence that is available.

Falah, why have you gone so silent about how your theory applies to the Broome area, and the validity of your comparison with the south of the country?

Why did you rely on a map of the NT that excluded the other vast areas assigned to aborigines and nature reserves, and that excluded the index showing that large areas of the NT near Darwin are not used for any kind of agriculture? Where did you get this misleading map from?

Are you in the slightest way aware of the difficulties faced by European farmers in the wet tropics? Why do you think Indonesian farmers are a good example of how successful European farmers will be in the tropics?

Where did you get the map of northern swamps from? It kind of reminds me of the map I made in about 2 minutes illustrating the absurdity of your theories. Did you honestly get through your entire thesis without a map showing how much seasonal wetland there is up there? What do you think normally happens to "large areas of flat land" in monsoonal rains?

Why do you think there is an enourmous nature reserve (one of the largest in the country) between Darwin and the Yolngu areas? Were we so scared of the aborigines we needed a few hundred kilometers of no mans land?

Was it just an undergrad thesis?

Whoo-hoo - Bun Fight at the OP Corral!

Sorry, guys - but you kinda lost me on the inclusion of the Broken Hill Massacre - and on exactly how this Macassan influence - with all respect - 'stopped genocide'.

Seems a very long bow to draw there - stretching all the way to Alpha Centauri, and you haven't even established that 'genocide' was in fact a reality - and not just a random series of events.

One could just as safely say that the influence of mixing with the French prevented the total genocide of the Irish by Cromwell and Co....it's simply drawing a conclusion without any solid base there.

Sorry, old mate - but I have lost faith in academics - and I can see why.

Now go ahead and offer this to the State Government of New South Wales.  Perhaps we could get some Macassan influence to help with the rise in Aboriginal incarceration of 56% since the 'Apology'.

_{“I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy."  ― John Adams}


ADDS:-  My prime clash of academia was in Peace Studies, where my response to the simple question "Do we live in a violent society?" was that indeed we did - and that the violence of our society started at the top and permeated its way down through each layer of society below - and then back up again in a never-ending cycle.

The prof would not accept that government had any hand in violence - since 'government should hold a monopoly on violence' (sic) and thus it was not 'violent'.

Lo and behold - four years later - while I am studying Terrorism etc - Lesson 1(a) is that THE most common and most casualty-causing Terrorism comes from government itself when allowed far too loose a rein.

Now - how are we to reconcile these two opposing 'academic' views?

Me?  I do it by being here - and elsewhere - and putting my views honestly in an open forum.

Bite me!

_{“There are two types of education... One should teach us how to make a living, And the other how to live.”
― John Adams}

P.S.  I am a great fan of John Adams - 2nd US President, and played by Sir Anthony Hopkins in the film Amistad.

Actually one interesting and valid point he did include was the exposure to some diseases that some northern tribes got from trading and interbreeding. While people tend to focus on the drama of massacres and the occasions when the aborigines fought back, the reality is that the death toll from disease outweighed everything else combined. This would have been slightly higher in the south where they had less exposure to foreign diseases over the millenia and a more sudden introduction to dense populations of Europeans.

freediver wrote on Jun 4^th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

Many people who actually attempted it believed it was not suitable.

Only after facing Aborigines who defended their land


freediver wrote on Jun 4^th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

The CSIRO has done a lot of good work on this.

Really. So you can gives us links to studies showing that Arnhem Land is not suitable for cattle grazing then?


freediver wrote on Jun 4^th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

Instead of actually using the information available, Falah dug up a letter from the 1800s from a man who decided it was suitable for farming (based on no experience in tropical agriculture) and relied on this letter and the colour of the land on google earth. He effectively equated the potential for european farming methods of tropical mangrove swamps and prime agricultural land in the south east of the country.

That agriculture has been deemed to be suitable in the area is sustained by the repeated attempts by British and Australian governments to settle the area despite fierce resistance from local Aborigines.

British explorers like Philip Parker King wrote about  Arnhem Land in the following manner:


Quote:

Here [Palm Bay, Western Arnhem Land]we found two streams of fresh water... The soil was here very good

Quote:

...everything bore the most luxuriant appearance...

Quote:

Mr. Cunningham [expedition's scientist] took the advantage of a good spot of soil in the vicinity of our wooding-place to sow every sort of seed that we possessed, namely, peach, apricot, loquat (a Chinese fruit), lemon, seventeen sorts of culinary seeds, tobacco, roses, and a variety of other European plants; and in addition to these, the coconut was planted, which we had found upon the beach of South-West Bay

Quote:

The soil [at Point Smith] is chiefly of a gray sandy earth, and in some parts might be called even rich...The climate seems here to favour vegetation so much that the quality of the soil appears to be of minor importance, for everything thrives and looks verdant.

At Port Essington, King wrote:


Quote:

Wood is abundant and convenient for embarking...the waters are well stocked with fish. As a harbour, Port Essington is equal, if not superior, to any I ever saw

Matthew Flinders wrote of Melville Bay area in East Arnhem Land:


Quote:

...on the south and eastern sides the country was covered with an agreeable intermixture of grass and trees, and better adapted for cattle than any I have seen in so low a latitude. The soil, though not deep, would produce most things suited to the climate; for the heat and moisture do so much for vegetation, that very little earth seems necessary to its support.

Based on such recommendations, settlements were attempted to be established at Fort Dundas, Fort Wellington, Port Essington, and Escape Cliffs.

Convicts grew vegetables at Fort Wellington on Raffles Bay, but this settlement had to be abandoned due to hostile natives.


Each settlement was abandoned after facing hostility from the natives.


There were the many attempts made by private entrepreneurs and investment companies to use the area for farming.

The fact that farming has been able to carried out in the less suitable area of Darwin as well as the NT/WA border and Northern Queensland demonstrates that farming in tropical areas by Europeans.






freediver wrote on Jun 4^th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

Quote: * All attempts to settle the Arnhem Land failed, at least in part, due to the hostility of the Indigenous people. Some of Falah's own evidence, based on the experience of farmers, shows that the primary reason was climate.

Freeliar, the Dutch settled in Jakarta for more than 300 years. The climate in Indonesia is more tropical than Arnhem Land. Europeans can survive in the tropics as evidenced by the settlement in places like Darwin, Cairns and Cooktown.




freediver wrote on Jun 4^th, 2012 at 6:45pm:

Quote: *Despite all historical reports indicating that Arnhem was considered suitable for farming, Freeliar says it is not. That is because I rely on actual evidence and experience...

of which you provide none. ;D

freediver wrote on Jun 4^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

Falah, why have you gone so silent about how your theory applies to the Broome area, and the validity of your comparison with the south of the country?

The Karrajarri people also fought to keep their lands and this is well documented.

The macassans traded in this region. However it is more pertinent to discuss Arnhem Land where the effects of Maccasan trade and cultural exchange was most profound.


Anyway this is the karrajarri lands near Broome determined as native title:


http://epress.anu.edu.au/apps/bookworm/view/country,+native+title+and+ecology/8681/images/AH%20Country%20Fig%205.2_opt.png



Most of the coast between Broome and the NT border were already Aboriginal Reserves prior to the Karrajarri title decision.

Quote:

Only after facing Aborigines who defended their land

You obviously didn't open your eyes in your travels. There are abandoned homesteads and small farming townships all over Australia. Even your own evidence puts climate first ahead of hostile aborigines - and this was for a single attempt, not a pattern of settlement.


Quote:

Really. So you can gives us links to studies showing that Arnhem Land is not suitable for cattle grazing then?

How about the maps of actual farm usage? Compared to the evidence you thought was relevant - the prime example being a single letter from the 1800's containing the uninformed opinion of a single observer, the second example being a modified map that deliberately excluded the key information, this puts me miles ahead of you in the evidence game, and that only took me a few minutes.


Quote:

That agriculture has been deemed to be suitable in the area is sustained by the repeated attempts

Again Falah, you have the evidence, but turn rational itnerpretation on its head. Suitability for agriculture should be judged by the success of agriculture. Attempts that turned into failures indicate that it is not suitable for agriculture, especially when you own evidence lists climate as the main cause for a specific example. This is a consistent pattern over the NT that is not confined to the areas you attribute to aboriginal hostility.


Quote:

...everything bore the most luxuriant appearance..

Falah, how is this any more of an informed opinion than your incredibly naive use of the colour on google earth as an indicator of suitability for european farming methods?


Quote:

The soil [at Point Smith] is chiefly of a gray sandy earth, and in some parts might be called even rich...The climate seems here to favour vegetation so much that the quality of the soil appears to be of minor importance, for everything thrives and looks verdant

Falah, this entire continent is full of examples of land that appeared rich and fertile in it's virgin state but turned out to be very poor in practice. Rather than having genuinely fertile soils, what little nutrients were present were locked up in the existing vegetation and was quickly depleted by farming. Jared Diamond gives a few examples in his book 'Collapse', but it is a common theme in Australian agriculture and even fisheries.

Were you unaware of this, or are you being deliberately deceptive by using uninformed pre-agriculutural assessments above the wealth of evidence and experience from actual attempts at farming this land?


Quote:

However it is more pertinent to discuss Arnhem Land where the effects of Maccasan trade and cultural exchange was most profound.

Why is it more 'pertinent'? Where did the Maccassans tend to come ashore in the Broome area? Given that you only have two examples to go by, surely you should make as much use as possible of what little evidence you have in attempting to assign cause and effect, rather than tossing half of it aside?


Quote:

Most of the coast between Broome and the NT border were already Aboriginal Reserves prior to the Karrajarri title decision.

Was this also a result of hostile aborigines?

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Quote: The soil [at Point Smith] is chiefly of a gray sandy earth, and in some parts might be called even rich...The climate seems here to favour vegetation so much that the quality of the soil appears to be of minor importance, for everything thrives and looks verdant Falah, this entire continent is full of examples of land that appeared rich and fertile in it's virgin state but turned out to be very poor in practice. Rather than having genuinely fertile soils, what little nutrients were present were locked up in the existing vegetation and was quickly depleted by farming. Jared Diamond gives a few examples in his book 'Collapse', but it is a common theme in Australian agriculture and even fisheries. Were you unaware of this, or are you being deliberately deceptive by using uninformed pre-agriculutural assessments above the wealth of evidence and experience from actual attempts at farming this land?

;D



It is a case of deceptive use of ignorance. Very common with Muslims. When it comes to debating anything involving Islam (and with Muslims, is there anything that doesn't ?),  it is a deliberate strategy to stay actively, militantly ignorant and use that as a strategic weapon against anyone.

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Quote: Only after facing Aborigines who defended their land You obviously didn't open your eyes in your travels. There are abandoned homesteads and small farming townships all over Australia.

I have found abandoned homesteads in various parts of Australia.

However, unlike Arnhem Land, none of them was abandoned due to an inability to exterminate Aborigines. In fact, in the places I have found abandoned homesteads, the Aboriginal populations have been removed from the land.

My research into these homesteads' collapse has shown that the cause was due to the homesteads being in regions with too little rain, or being too small.

There were also many farms that went out of business in the mid 20^th century due to a series of events such as the severe drought across most of Australia from 1918-1920, rising Australian currency in the mid 1920's s due to Britain devaluing their own pound, and subsequent commodity price crashes in Britain in the late 1920's and 1930's, drought across Eastern Australia from 1937-1947, and then Australia's main export market, Britain, joining the Common Market - many small and marginal farms never recovered from these events.

These events do not apply to the settlement of Arnhem Land in the 19^th century and beginning of the 20^th century.




freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Quote: Really. So you can gives us links to studies showing that Arnhem Land is not suitable for cattle grazing then? How about the maps of actual farm usage? Compared to the evidence you thought was relevant - the prime example being a single letter from the 1800's

Freeliar did you even bother to read all the evidence I provided?

Journals of British explorers saying how rich and fertile Arnhem Land was, and how suitable it would be for cattle grazing.

Matthew Flinders said he had never sen an area so close the equator that so suited to cattle grazing as he found in Arnhem Land.

There are similar reports from other exploratory expeditions sent by the British government and also by private individuals.

The scores of attempts by Europeans to settle in Arnhem Land - which were all attacked by the Indigenous inhabitants - demonstrate that people interested in farming felt that Anrhem Land was indeed suitable for farming.

The fact is that Aborigines putting up a fight was at least a substantial factor in the failure of every attempt to settle Arnhem Land.




freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Quote: That agriculture has been deemed to be suitable in the area is sustained by the repeated attempts Suitability for agriculture should be judged by the success of agriculture.

According to your logic the entire continent of Australia should be deemed unsuitable for farming because the Japanese failed to implement their farming techniques here in the 1940's. ;D



freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Attempts that turned into failures indicate that it is not suitable for agriculture,

No, failed attempts in fertile land demonstrate successful self-defence of Indigenous Australians.




freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

especially when you own evidence lists climate as the main cause for a specific example.

Freeliar, that is nonsense. If climate was a factor then why are there farms in the Kimberley region and Darwin area. According to your climate excuse there should be no European farms anywhere in northern Australia.

Every attempt to settle Arnhem Land met resistance from Indigenous Australians - every attempt - and there were dozens.

All the early British explorers found Arnhem Land to be good fertile land, but all were attacked- Matthew Flinders, John Lort Stokes, and Philip Parker recorded very similar experiences in Arnhem Land.

The British government and British entrepreneurs  considered Arnhem Land fertile enough to warrant significant investment and dozens of attempts at settlements, all were attacked by Indigenous Australians.



freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

This is a consistent pattern over the NT that is not confined to the areas you attribute to aboriginal hostility.

Freeliar, every part of the Northern Territory that is not Aboiginal Land is farmland apart from the swamps  around Darwin.


Have a look at the map which you posted. Even the less suitable area surrounding Darwin is mostly used for grazing!

Darwin is surrounded by swampland!

Arnhem Land is much better quality land, yet look at the map you provided grazing exists in most of the land around Darwin except for the worst swampland.




freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Quote: However it is more pertinent to discuss Arnhem Land where the effects of Maccasan trade and cultural exchange was most profound. Why is it more 'pertinent'?

I just explained. Macassan influence was strongest in Arnhem Land. If we want to examine the effect of Macassan cultural exchange it would be make sense to look at the area where that exchange was strongest felt. Can your feeble grasp this concept is that to challenging for you?



freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Where did the Maccassans tend to come ashore in the Broome area? Given that you only have two examples to go by, surely you should make as much use as possible of what little evidence you have in attempting to assign cause and effect, rather than tossing half of it aside?

Freeliar, Macassan campsites have been identified all over the Kimberley coast, some of the earthernware and firearms are centuries old.

Europeans recorded seeing Macassans across the coast, and Indigenous folklore records there presence.


If you are interested in reading about the identification of historical Macassan sites I suggest you read Professor Campbell Macknight's work on the topic. He is considered an expert on the topic and gave me advice on my thesis.

His book Voyage to Marege is very interesting.
His research is concentrated more on Arnhem Land.



The work of T Burns records numerous finds of Macassan sites on the Western Australian coast. If you are interested you could read  National Survey for the Register of Macassan/Indonesian Earthernware Pottery-shard Collections from the Northern Australian Coast:basis for the study of historical links between Australia and south-east Asia, a report for the Western Australia Heritage Committee, Department of Geology,
University of Western Australia, 1989.

http://books.google.com.au/books/about/National_Survey_for_the_Register_of_Maca.html?id=AMg9uQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34410802?q&c=book


French explorer, Frecycinet, recorded seeing 26 Macassan ships on the Kimberley coast in 1802.

Otherwise the work of historian Ian Crawford contains anecdotal evidence and folklore from Indigineous people in the Broome region.



British explorers in this region found Indigenous Australians displaying behaviour that demonstrated an understanding of foreigners such as approaching their ships and wanting to trade. Behaviour unheard of amongst Indigenous people in non-Macassan trade areas.



 


freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Quote: Most of the coast between Broome and the NT border were already Aboriginal Reserves prior to the Karrajarri title decision. Was this also a result of hostile aborigines?

I suggest you read the work of Dr Ian Crawford. His excllent book, We Won the Victory, explains how the Indigenous people in the area resisted European invasion.

Arnhem Land, place never visited by Freeliar, yet somehow deemed by him to be unsuitable for cattle grazing:

http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/9d8/08e/the-monsoon-forest-and-arnhem-land-jabiru.jpg




Quote:

Swamp buffalo were introduced into the Northern Territory from Timor early in the 19th century as a food source and a beast of burden. They escaped, thrived and became feral, causing significant environmental damage. Buffalo are also found in Arnhem Land and the Top End. An estimated 350,000 buffalo were living on the floodplains of Arnhem Land and the Katherine region in the 1980s. As a result, they were hunted in the Top End from 1885 until 1980. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Water_Buffalo_at_Fogg_Dam_%281%29.jpg/800px-Water_Buffalo_at_Fogg_Dam_%281%29.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Buffalo#Australia

http://buffaloaustralia.org/

Quote:

Arnhem Land, place never visited by Freeliar, yet somehow deemed by him to be unsuitable for cattle grazing:

Falah, can you explain why the plain is treeless?

Also, what do you think is the key difference between a cow and a water buffalo?

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 7:56pm:

what do you think is the key difference between a cow and a water buffalo?

In my opinion, cows meat tastes better than buffaloe.

Buffaloes were introduced to Arnhem Land by European settlers in the 1820's. The animal has been so successful in Anrhem Land that it has come to be considered a pest.


Quote:

Water buffalo have been domesticated for 5,000 years, and have become economically important animals. They provide more than 5% of the world’s milk supply...Milk from these animals is used by many human populations, and is the traditional raw material for mozzarella cheese and curd due to its higher fat content. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Buffalo#Importance_to_humans

falah wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56pm: what do you think is the key difference between a cow and a water buffalo? In my opinion, cows meat tastes better than buffaloe. Buffaloes were introduced to Arnhem Land by European settlers in the 1820's. The animal has been so successful in Anrhem Land that it has come to be considered a pest. Quote: Water buffalo have been domesticated for 5,000 years, and have become economically important animals. They provide more than 5% of the world’s milk supply...Milk from these animals is used by many human populations, and is the traditional raw material for mozzarella cheese and curd due to its higher fat content. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Buffalo#Importance_to_humans

I see you missed the point. It's the water. Buffalo can handle it, but cattle farms and swamps don't really mix, especially tropical swamps.

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:15pm:

falah wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:06pm: freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56pm: what do you think is the key difference between a cow and a water buffalo? In my opinion, cows meat tastes better than buffaloe. Buffaloes were introduced to Arnhem Land by European settlers in the 1820's. The animal has been so successful in Anrhem Land that it has come to be considered a pest. Quote: Water buffalo have been domesticated for 5,000 years, and have become economically important animals. They provide more than 5% of the world’s milk supply...Milk from these animals is used by many human populations, and is the traditional raw material for mozzarella cheese and curd due to its higher fat content. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Buffalo#Importance_to_humans I see you missed the point. It's the water. Buffalo can handle it, but cattle farms and swamps don't really mix, especially tropical swamps.

Freeliar, More than 90%  of Arnhem Land is not swamp, much of it is a plateau.
Quote:

East of the East Alligator River, most of the rivers of Arnhem Land are relatively small, and the floodplains relatively restricted. http://www.savanna.org.au/al/al_landscape.html

Buffalo is just one example of a type of farming that can be successful in Arnhem Land if Europeans had only managed to conquer the lands.




Quote:

Remote meatworks revived Posted: Thu, November 11, 2010 http://www.nlc.org.au/images/sized/files/various/DSC00489-400x0.JPG Federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin makes a purchase from Gunbalanya Meatworks. The revival of a run-down cattle station and adjoining abbatoir in a remote Northern Territory community is providing real jobs and affordable fresh meat to the Aboriginal peoples of Western Arnhem Land. The community of Gunbalanya, near the northern edge of world heritage listed Kakadu National Park, celebrated the official opening of the revamped Gunbalanya Meat Supply Pty Ltd operation in early November 2010. The meatworks is processing beef from the Aboriginal-owned Gunbalanya Station, which boasts more than 250 square kilometres of rich black floodplain country, and eventually hopes to kill up to 90 head per week. The meatworks revival comes on the back of an agreement struck between the Northern Land Council, the Indigenous Land Corporation and Gunbalanya meatworks. Under the deal, ILC will work in partnership with the community over 15 years to improve infrastructure and grazing practices at Gunbalanya Station, taking the cattle herd from 1,000 to 7,000 head, and to provide a major upgrade of the meatworks. It’s hoped the enterprise will soon employ up to 30 people and young men from Gunbalanya have shown their keen to work in both the pastoral and meat processing fields. NLC’s land management facilitator David Armstorng says the revival of Gunbalanya Station and the meatworks showed what could be achieved through good will negotiation and co-operation between families and organisations. “Traditional owners came to the Northern Land Council and wanted to work a way forward because their business was basically broken so the Northern Land Council, through the Indigenous Pastoral Program, got out here and looked at the figures and looked at ways forward for the business.” Under the arrangement the ILC will spend $3 million upgrading station infrastructure and extending the meatworks over 15 years. It’s hoped the property, once fully re-fenced, can support 7000-8000 cattle, allowing ILC to use Gunbalanya Station as a finishing point for its northern herd and increasing kill numbers at the meatworks. Adrian Gumudrul is one of the stockmen employed at Gunbalanya Station and, having spent almost half a century in the saddle, he’s the perfect mentor for young men and women wanting to follow in his footsteps. “I feel really good about what’s going on out here now,” Mr Gumudrul said. “The young people are getting jobs and looking up to all us who are out there working.” Gunbalanya Meats manager Dion Henderson said prime cuts from the meatworks were providing a cheaper food source for people across Western Arnhem Land and that word was spreading fast. “Everything that comes here’s frozen so to have fresh meat on hand all the time, they like it.” Mr Henderson predicts a bright future for the meatworks and pastoral operation and says having good staff is the key to any business plan. “The blokes that are there now are good and reliable. They turn up every day and really get excited about their work. They love sharpening their knives and they love to cut meat.” Gunbalanya meatworks is also processing buffalo from nearby Hodgson Downs, where up to 5000 buffalo run wild, and has plans the meat to restaurants in Sydney and Melbourne. http://www.nlc.org.au/media-releases/article/remote-meatworks-revived ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

http://www.nlc.org.au/images/sized/files/various/DSC00468-400x0.JPG

Project puts Aboriginal stockmen back in saddle

http://static.lifeislocal.com.au/multimedia/images/large/995717.jpg

FOR 15 years Aboriginal stockman Adrian Gumurul hunted wild buffalo across the flood plains near Kakadu until they had to be exterminated because of brucellosis in the 1980s.

''It was a great living, free on a horse, but it all fell away,'' he says.

But Mr Gumurul, 52, has returned to the saddle, mustering cattle across the same country in a project that will triple the number of jobs for indigenous workers in his tiny community of Gunbalanya, 320 kilometres east of Darwin.

''Things are changing for the better around here for the first time in years,'' he says. ''Our blokes are getting work like we used to when we were young.''

Under a pilot project brokered by the Northern Land Council, the Indigenous Land Corporation is spending $3.1 million to upgrade and manage the community-owned meatworks.

For years the meatworks slaughtered only a few cattle a week, for local consumption. But now up to 90 cattle a week will be slaughtered in the community, with meat exported to Asia and sent to some of Australia's top restaurants.

Under the project, fences are being rebuilt and and water holes dug to allow the community's existing 1000 cattle herd to be boosted to 8000.

Buffalo and other cattle will also be brought from three properties managed by the Indigenous Land Corporation in the Northern Territory to be slaughtered at the meatworks.

''The old stockmen like me are teaching the young fellas like what used to happen in the old days,'' Mr Gumurul says, standing beside his horse called No Name on a flood plain near the community.

http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news/state/agribusiness-and-general/general/project-puts-aboriginal-stockmen-back-in-saddle/1994278.aspx

Indigenous folk grazing cattle in Arnhem land Freeliar:

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/08/19/1226118/002197-110820-stockman.jpg

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Meatworks to provide jobs in Arnhem Land

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/2331634-3x2-940x627.jpg

The redevelopment of a meatworks in a remote Aboriginal community near Kakadu could create more than 50 local jobs, the Indigenous Land Corporation says...

...Over the next 15 years, the cattle herd there will be increased to 7,000.

The venture will also see young Indigenous people trained as pastoralists and meat processes.

"Young people going to learn to work for their own living, and caring for their own family," cattleman Adrian Gurrumul said.

Northern Land Council chief executive Kim Hill welcomed the venture.

"This meatworks is providing jobs for local peoples and importantly it will also give people access to better food and encourage healthy lifestyles," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-11-10/meatworks-to-provide-jobs-in-arnhem-land/2331630



;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote:

Buffalo is just one example of a type of farming that can be successful in Arnhem Land if Europeans had only managed to conquer the lands.

How many successful water buffalo farms do you know of? How is this any different from your argument that the existence of farms in Indonesia demonstrates the viability of the land for European immigrants? Why would someone go all the way to the frontier to try an experimental farming method of a product for which there is no market?


Quote:

...Over the next 15 years, the cattle herd there will be increased to 7,000.

Falah, the example you gave previously of the farm from that TV show would have over ten times as many cattle. It supports one family. It is hardly a gold mine for european farmers and would have been even harder in the past. I think it's great that the aborigines are working their way up in the world, but don't read too much into it.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2012 at 8:35am:

Quote: Buffalo is just one example of a type of farming that can be successful in Arnhem Land if Europeans had only managed to conquer the lands. How many successful water buffalo farms do you know of? How is this any different from your argument that the existence of farms in Indonesia demonstrates the viability of the land for European immigrants? Why would someone go all the way to the frontier to try an experimental farming method of a product for which there is no market?

Freeliar, buffalo farming is hardly experimental it has been carried out for 5000 years.

There is a huge market for buffalo. It is very popular in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines.

In the Northern Territory buffalo meat is being exported and there are also buffalo dairy farms. 5% of the worlds milk comes from buffalo, and it is used to make mozzarella cheese.


The Northern Territory had a big leather industry relying on buffalo hide until synthetics replaced most use of leather.





Quote:

...Over the next 15 years, the cattle herd there will be increased to 7,000.

Falah, the example you gave previously of the farm from that TV show would have over ten times as many cattle. It supports one family. It is hardly a gold mine for european farmers and would have been even harder in the past. I think it's great that the aborigines are working their way up in the world, but don't read too much into it.[/quote]

Freeliar, that is only one small area of Arnhem Land where the traditional owners are interested in cattle grazing.

There are many other parts of Arnhem Land suitable for cattle grazing:



Quote:

Arnhem Land traditional owners offer cattle lifeline Traditional owners of land in the Northern Territory are proposing to help cattle left hungry and stranded by the live export ban to Indonesia. Jonathan Farrell from the Ngukurr area, south east of Katherine, says there is feed and land for up to 100,000 animals after a bumper wet season. He says the Federal Government should pay to transport livestock to the area in Arnhem Land because they introduced the ban. "There is a lot of good country, no need for bores, we've got waters everywhere running," Mr Farrell said. "It will be a good thing for the community and they will be looking forward to it."... http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/07/06/3262707.htm?site=darwin

100,000 cattle in another small part of Arnhem Land.


Imagine how many millions of cattle could be put on the whole of Arnhem Land!

Quote:

The Northern Territory had a big leather industry relying on buffalo hide until synthetics replaced most use of leather

How many of these came from farmed buffalo?


Quote:

Freeliar, that is only one small area of Arnhem Land where the traditional owners are interested in cattle grazing.

Interested? This is 2012 - more than a century after the time you are talking about. More than a century after the evidence you have presented, which largely consists of people talking about the farming potential of this land. And still they are merely talking about it? What does that tell you about the potential profits involved?


Quote:

Jonathan Farrell from the Ngukurr area, south east of Katherine, says there is feed and land for up to 100,000 animals after a bumper wet season.

Again Falah, you seem to prefer to go by what people say the land can support rather than what it can actually support. In this case the guy is not even claiming the land could support that many cattle on a long term basis. It is land on the margins of what was settled by immigrants that, as your article explains, happened to temporarily be suitable for large numbers of cattle at a time when there was a glut of cattle on the market. Even so, the guy was only willing to bring cattle in if the government paid for it. What does that tell you about the potential profits involved?

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2012 at 6:42pm:

Quote: Freeliar, that is only one small area of Arnhem Land where the traditional owners are interested in cattle grazing. Interested? This is 2012 - more than a century after the time you are talking about. More than a century after the evidence you have presented, which largely consists of people talking about the farming potential of this land. And still they are merely talking about it? What does that tell you about the potential profits involved?

Freeliar you ignore all the actual farming that whas gone on in Arnhem land.

There are people grazing cattle in Arnhem Land today, but you said it couldn't be done.

The Eastern and African Cold Storage Company grazed cattle on Arnhem Land for 5 years before being driven off by Aborigines.


Many cattle station and other settlements existed in Arnhem Land for years before being driven off by Aborigines.

Why did these settlers fail to remove the Aborigines like they did in every other part of Australia that they settled?


Let us read about some accountsof the farms established in Arrnhem Land:



Quote:

The Rev James Watson returned to Darwin by the Mission lugger has just completed a journey from Katherine to Crocodile Island with horses, chiefly brood mares. The Island is about 100 miles east of Goulburn. During the trip the party passed through some wonderful pastoral and agricultural country. Many magnificent lagoons were passed, most of them covered with game of every kind, a sportsman's paradise. They passed through the Bullman silver-lead proposition which was deserted for the time being. Beautiful springs, bubbling up out of the ground, streams eight feet wide as clear as crystal ; lagoons miles round them; beautiful pastoral country park- like in appearance ; alternating with sandy country; belts of cypress pine timber extending for miles, The last outpost for any white man resident is the Mainoru station surrounded by magnificent lagoons. They were greatly interested in the station before that held by Messrs McNeice and Cobb (returned soldiers). At both of these places they received the greatest kindness - proverbial Territory hospitality. Met three lots of blacks towards Arafura station and Florida station. This is in Arnhem Land. They were greatly interested in the prospects of the returned soldiers, and were delighted with the splendid country they had chosen. It was a very refreshing sight to see a rushing torrent falling down over rocky falls and they simply amazed at the tremendous stretch of lagoons further north. Saw some of the offspring of cattle placed very many years ago on Arafura, abandoned long since. Some of the posts of the old homestead still remain...Made enquiries from blacks about supposed captive women but in no case could they gain any definite information except rumour. The horses were all landed on the Island in good order (350 miles). We had anticipated a little trouble owing to the horses being unshod over some of the stony country, but our fears were unfounded as not one of the horses showed any signs of lameness. Captain Wilkins was left on the mainland opposite Goulburn Island where he is busy catching rock wallabies. Farming operations are being conducted at Crocodile Island where, maize, cotton, peanuts, coconuts, bananas, sweet potatoes, etc. are being grown,. [Northern Territory Times and Gazette (Darwin, NT Friday 31 October 1924)]

Florida Cattle Station was on Yolngu land for about a decade



Quote:

NORTHERN TERRITORY NEWS. AN ENCOURAGING REPORT FROM THE NORTH COAST. [By Telegraph] Port Darwin. December 5. Mr. J. Arthur Macartney, owner of the Florida Station at Glyde's Inlet on the North Coast, has just returned from his station...The station, which has been formed about two years, has a surprisingly large natural increase. A substantial homestead has been erected and garden made. The growth of everything was astonishing, fruits bearing exceptionally early, and the plains being covered with wild rice. Wild fowl and fish abound. No white ants are to be seen as yet. Mr. Macartney says from his experience of sugar-growing in Queensland he firmly believes that two crops could be grown annually in Florida. (South Australian Register, Tuesday 6 December 1887)

Quote:

At Florida Station, around 1885 Yolngu were fed poisoned horse-meat after they killed and ate cattle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yolngu_people

Quote:

THE NORTHERN TERRITORY. By Telegraph Port Darwin. Januarv 23. The Adelaide returned from the McArthur River yesterday with one passenger. She brings news from that district, dated 4th inst., that the body of D. McKay, who was reported last week as supposed to have perished from the want of water, had been found by a stockman on the Brunette Run, sixteen miles from the head station, between there and Alroy Downs. The remains were covered by bushes, earth, and a rug...The police at Roper River report there is a rumour among the natives there that Mr. Watson, the Manager for Mr. J. A. Macartney, and one of his men have been speared by die natives at Florida Station... [South Australian Register, Tuesday 24 January 1893]

The Eastern & African Cold Storage Company tried to take off from where


Quote:

CATTLE OF THE NORTHERN : TERRITORY. According to the latest issue of Tho Northern Territory Times it is reported from Hodgson Downs that Mr. ¥. W. Palmer has completed taking delivery of that station on account of the E. and A. Storage Syndicate. As soon as the country is dry enough to admit of stock travelling Mr. Palmer will probably dispatch another 4,000 cattle sold by the syndicate to the Arafura Company, and will then proceed to Woloragang Station, near the Queens land border, which station he will lake over on account of the syndicate. Tin's property is the latest purchase of the syndicate, and is said to comprise a splendid herd of about 11,000 head. Mr. J. Bradshaw, who recently returned from the Goyder River, states that affairs there are decidedly prosperous...the stock are said to be looking consented and well, and calves and foals are numerous. The resuscitation of the Iong-deserted Florida Station is being rapidly proceeded with. [The Register (Adelaide, SA) Saturday 9 April 1904]

Quote:

NORTHERN TERRITORY ARABLE LANDS AND Mr BRACKENBURY 5. Mr. Heber Percy pronounces the lands at Florida, in Glvde's lnlet, to be "equal to the best of any lands I know in Queensland." 6. Mr. Holtze, F.L.A. in 1883, wrote— 'Our good land is on the wide plains of our rivers, where the tropical rains of centuries have deposited the alluvial soil of the higher country...We also hear of the magnificent soils of Florida Station; and Mr. D'Arcy Uur, who is surely able to speak with authority, tells me that some of the soil of the country lying between the Howley and the Daly River equals the best soils he has ever seen in Queensland.' I could give columns of similar extracts. 7. The soils were analysed by Dr. Schombunk and Mr. Cosmo Newberry, and met with their 'entire approval' for tropical agriculture. [South Australian Register (Adelaide, SA) Monday 7 December 1896]

I think this is the most interesting subjet you have brought to the board Falah. In the main it's been met with abuse, ridicule and ignorance, which is a shame.

The resistance of the Arnhem land natives is well known amongst anthropologists and they definitely are regarded as being an anomaly amongst Australian natives.

The land is largely fertile and an abundance of water being regarded as an impediment to agriculture is absurd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem_Land

While there's no doubt that the interaction between top end natives and Asia occured and must have introduced concepts unknown in the south, I've heard little support for the proposition that Islam was itself an influence. Do you have any evidence to suggest it was? Other. that is, from the odd Aboriginal person adopting it and refusing to eat pork. I've no doubt that the odd aboriginal person has converted to Judaism - and refuses pork.

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The land is largely fertile and an abundance of water being regarded as an impediment to agriculture is absurd.

It is not absurd Grey. Even Falah managed to acknowledge this in discussing why there are so many large areas around Darwin that are not used for anything. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with grazing will understand the risks associated with waterlogged soil.


Quote:

While there's no doubt that the interaction between top end natives and Asia occured and must have introduced concepts unknown in the south, I've heard little support for the proposition that Islam was itself an influence.

According to Falah, contact with Muslims made the aborigines automatically hostile and violent (because the maccassans told them to run and hide when they saw white people).


Quote:

There are people grazing cattle in Arnhem Land today, but you said it couldn't be done

Again, stick to what I actually say Falah. I have already explained this for you many times.


Quote:

Let us read about some accountsof the farms established in Arrnhem Land

Is this because you realise how silly it was to use accounts that list climate as the dominant reason - even for individual actions alone and ignoring patterns of settlement?

Oh wait, more examples of people talking about farming the area but not actually farming it? Do you see the apttern here Falah?


Quote:

Mr. Macartney says from his experience of sugar-growing in Queensland he firmly believes that two crops could be grown annually in Florida.

How many sugar can farms are there in the NT Falah?


Quote:

As soon as the country is dry enough to admit of stock travelling

LOL

How much money is currently made from cattle farming the Yolngu area?

Falah, just about every example you give of how suitable the area is for European farming methods merely demonstrates your complete ignorance of what makes good farmland. You have a particular focus on pre-agricultural assessments made from ignorance. The only time you gave evidence explaining why these farms later failed, the evidence listed climate as the dominant cause of failure. Your attempts show a desperate search for any evidence that goes against the grain, no matter how flawed or dated, and a deliberate rejection of the overwhelming evidence of the marginal suitability of the area for farming.

Why are you relying on the assessments made before farming was attempted rather than the assessments made after the farms failed?

Why do you think the actual farmers themselves listed climate as the dominant cause of failure?

Why is the example of Broome not pertinent? Is it because of the only two examples you have of areas that had frequent contact, this one demonstrates the opposite of what you are arguing? It is about the only significant white settlement in thousands of kilometers of coastline from Darwin to Perth - coastline where aborigines that had even less contact got huge tracts of land handed to them much earlier?

Do you still think southern aborigines would have been better off if they were more hostile and violent? Why have you gone silent on this comparison that you started out with?

Are you aware of the common themes in Australian farming and fisheries of areas that initially appeared fertile but turned out not be be so?

Why do you think the areas of the NT that are farmed have such an extremely low population density and such enormous farms, many the size of european countries?

What fraction of the 'big buffalo leather industry' in the NT came from farmed buffalo? Why do you think it would be profitable to farm an animal that is already a pest that people are trying to get rid of?

Do you understand the difference in suitability for wet tropical areas between cattle and water buffalo?

Are you aware of any health problems experience by cattle in waterlogged soil?

What do you think happens when monsoonal rain falls on "large areas of flat land" in crocodile country?

Why do you think the green looking plain you used as evidence has no trees on it?

Why do you think the aborigines in your example would only bring in cattle to graze on their land at a time when the cattle were going dirt cheap (due to the export ban) if the government helped pay for it?

How many of the '50 jobs' in your example are full time?

Can you explain how massacring aborigines helped the aborigines and drove the white people off?

Why did you use a map that deliberately left off the index showing the large areas around Darwin that are not used for anything? It also left off the other enormous areas of the NT assigned to aboriginal or conservation use.

Why do you think there is an enormous nature reserve (one of the largest in the country) between Darwin and the Yolngu areas? Were we so scared of the aborigines we needed a few hundred kilometers of no mans land?

Where did you get your map of northern swamps from? Do you think it is complete?

Do you still think that the colour on google maps is a good indication of suitability for european farming methods? Why do you think there is a consistent trend in your own evidence for the cattle farms to be south of the wettest areas, regardless of aboriginal hostility?

Do you still think that the potential for twenty farms in an area the size of Tasmania indicates fertile land?

Why did you give Mildura as an example of how the southeast also has a low population density in fertile land, when this one town has a population roughly equal to one third of the NT's population outside of Darwin, including aborigines?

Why do you think Indonesian farms indicate that the NT is suitable for european farming methods?

Did you consider at all the example of the Ord River Scheme?

Are you aware of any factor other than farm proifitability per unit area that is a better predictor of population density?

Are you aware of the experience of south African farmers as they attempted to colonise areas further north?

Why do you think that the example of the US and British armies in North America getting involved in disputes and moving the natives on to the least fertile areas supports your argument? Do you think our army would have been too scared of the aborigines, or would have been defeated by them?


Was it just an undergrad thesis?


Doesn't it simply make more sense that the remoteness of these tribes above anything else allowed them to get away with their hostility and violence, rather than causing it?

Grey wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 1:46pm:

I think this is the most interesting subjet you have brought to the board Falah. In the main it's been met with abuse, ridicule and ignorance, which is a shame. The resistance of the Arnhem land natives is well known amongst anthropologists and they definitely are regarded as being an anomaly amongst Australian natives. The land is largely fertile and an abundance of water being regarded as an impediment to agriculture is absurd. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem_Land While there's no doubt that the interaction between top end natives and Asia occured and must have introduced concepts unknown in the south, I've heard little support for the proposition that Islam was itself an influence. Do you have any evidence to suggest it was?

My thesis looked at the influence of Macassans in general, not just religious.

However, I was surprised when conducting my research to find that in Arnhem Land, there was a strong influence especially amongst the Yolngu people.

The one thing that Aborigines in Arnhem Land both seemed to get from the Macassans was the adoption of wearing clothes and coverin private parts.


The topic needs more research, but here are some of the things I found that the Yolngu had been influenced with:

*belief in Allah
*Several converts to Islam
*recitiation of Quran during rituals
*sending blessings on Muhammed in Arabic during rituals
*elements of Muslim prayers in rituals
*concept of Macassans bringing universal law
*wearing of clothes/covering private parts.
*circumcision

Quote:

*circumcision

;D

freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 6:43pm:

Even Falah managed to acknowledge this in discussing why there are so many large areas around Darwin that are not used for anything.

Freeliar, Darwin is hundreds of kilometres from Arnhem Land.



freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 6:43pm:

Quote: While there's no doubt that the interaction between top end natives and Asia occured and must have introduced concepts unknown in the south, I've heard little support for the proposition that Islam was itself an influence. According to Falah, contact with Muslims made the aborigines automatically hostile and violent (because the maccassans told them to run and hide when they saw white people).

The Macassans warned Aborigines to be wary of Europeans. The first Europeans exploration ships to visit Arnhem Land record the wariness and hostility of Aborigines, and this continued until Europeans gave up trying to settle Arnhem Land. The Macassans learnt about white people and guns from the Macassans and there are reports that Macassans sold guns to Aborigines.



freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 6:43pm:

Quote: Let us read about some accounts of the farms established in Arrnhem Land Is this because you realise how silly it was to use accounts that list climate as the dominant reason - even for individual actions alone and ignoring patterns of settlement?

Oh wait, more examples of people talking about farming the area but not actually farming it? Do you see the apttern here Falah?

Did you even read the accounts of Florida cattle station in Arnhem Land? You really are an ignoramus and a liar.



freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 6:43pm:

Quote: Mr. Macartney says from his experience of sugar-growing in Queensland he firmly believes that two crops could be grown annually in Florida. How many sugar can farms are there in the NT Falah?

Might have been plenty if only the Europeans could conquer Arnhem Land


freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 6:43pm:

Quote: As soon as the country is dry enough to admit of stock travelling LOL

You obviously cannot grasp the difference between cattle grazing and driving cattle through hundreds of kilometres of bush in the wet season.

Freeliar will never accept that Arnhem Land is suitable for farming, regardless of what evidence is given to him.

Even when Indigenous people start farming it themsleves he says it cannot be done.

Here is an account of Florida Station in East Arnhem Land after three years of operation:


Quote:

A VISIT TO FLORIDA CATTLE STATION NORTHERN TERRITORY. [From our special reporter} Leaving Port Darwin on October 27 in Messrs. Millar Brothers' steamer Active, we enjoyed a very pleasant run. On the 30th we sighted the Crocodile Islands, which lie about 20 miles from the land to the north of Glyde's Inlet. We were not Long in making the mouth of the inlet, and steamed up to an anchorage within about & miles of the station. Glvde's Inlet is about 3O miles in length from the mouth to the head of navigation, carrying good bold water all the way, with a width varying from about a quarter of a mile at the mouth to about 80 yards at the higher landing, where the smaller boats from Palmerston discharged station stores, at a distance of 4 or 5 miles from the station...The steaming distance from Port Darwin was computed to be about 350 miles. The Florida, Station is built on the further side of a rise from the inlet...We soon covered the 8 or 9 miles intervening between the lauding and the station, and were agreeably surprised by the appearance of the homestead. The main building ("Government House"), in fact all the station buildings, are substantially made of sawn timber, principally cypress pine, paperbark, and ironwood. The site has been admirably chosen. It is on a small hill, the end of a small range of rising ground, about 150 yards from and above a horseshoe lagoon that partially surrounds this spur of the range. It looks down on the station garden and horse paddock, and the rich grassy plains beyond. While the cook waa busy converting the flour and other stores we had just brought into toothsome viands we discussed the merits of some very fine pineapples, bananas, papayas or pawpaws, mulberries, guavas, pomegranates, melons, and passion fruit, the produce of the station garden, with which our table was laden. The rest of our stay at the homestead was devoted to an inspection of the stock...We found the cattle, with a few exceptions, in good condition...Mr. Macartney and his Manager, both of whom have had a very extended experience among cattle...Our inspection of the country was most satisfactory, grand richly-grassed plains, intersected every few miles by permanent creeks, with here and there large lagoons, proved to be permanent by the number and size of their finny denizens. The plains are divided, or framed as it were, by what appear to be gently rising hills...The tablelands are well watered by permanent creeks, which are kept always running by the frequent rains with which this part of the country is blessed; in fact so frequent are they that it may fairly be said that there is no dry season here. A record of the rainfall has not been kept, but Mr. Randell has noted that during the two years and four months or so in which Florida has been occupied, the longest spell of dry weather experienced was two months. In many particulars its climate presents a marked and very favourable contrast to that of Port Darwin. That very excellent heatgauge, butter, testifies by its solidity and rich colour that Florida must- be many degrees cooler than Port Darwin The luxuriance of the vegetation is simply wonderful. Mr. Macartney, who spent many years in the neighbourhood of some of the sugar districts of Queensland, feels confident that sugar will do splendidly on Florida. The block of country which is comprised In the Florida Run contains an area of about 10,000 square miles, extending front a short distance west of the mouth of the Blyth River, eastward to the Gulf of Carpentaria, embracing the whole of the coastline,. with an average depth inland of about 50 miles. It takes in the Gulf coast from Caps Wessel to about the north end of Blue Mud Bay.  Travellers who have explored the coast and made short trips inland speak very highly of it. It is thought that the auriferous country that two parties of prospectors from Port Darwin, one by Bea and one by land, went in search of some years ago near Blue Mud Bay, but could not reach because of the hostility of the natives, lies in the ranges some distance to the north-west of Blue Mud Bay...the percentage' of natural in crease [of the cattle herd] had been very high and the young stock fine and strong. One point about the breeding cattle worthy of note is that they are all fertile and rear their calves. There are about 100 well-bred useful horses on the station, all in first-rate order, bearing eloquent testimony to the excellence of their pastures. The stockyards are of a decidedly modern and permanent character, well and substantially built cf bloodwood posts and paperbark rails, with good strong workmanlike gates... ...Returning to the station it struck us as remarkable and worthy of note that the plain is covered with wild rice, whether indigenous or not we cannot say. It may be possible that the Malays, who spend some months every year on this coast beche-de-mer fishing, have dropped or planted some paddy, and that this is the result. There also are found large numbers of feathered game, amongst others bustards, scrub turkeys, geese, pigmy geese, ducks, jungle fowl, emus, native companions, jaberoos, three sorts of ibis, two sorts of cranes, several kinds of pigeons, snipe, quail, parrots, cockatoos, and numberless smaller birds. There are a few kangaroos, pretty large, and very fat— vexy different in this respect from their southern congeners. The lagoons and rivers teem with fish, most of which are similar to those in Queensland waters... ...the natives along this coast are amongst the most dangerous and hostile in the Territory. The absence of white ants will prove an especial boon to the station garden, or it will allow of the growth to maturity of the, various fruit-trees that in Port Darwin are piped out and weakened by the ant, and blown down by the first puff of wind. Among the trees in the Florida garden that seldom get a chance to mature in Darwin were noticed mangoes, guavas, papaya, oranges, lemons, cocoanuts, dates, tamarinds, and one or two other kinds of Chinese fruits. The garden also contains pomegranates, figs, sisyphus, mulberries, bananas, custard apples, pineapples, passion fruit, water and sweet melons. Among the vegetables are yams, sweet potatoes, English potatoes, eschalotts, radishes, 'long reds,' 12 to 15 inches long and 3 inches thick, 'turnip' radishes bigger than ordinary turnips, splendid lettuces with big solid hearts — quite a treat after the small leafy ones in Port Darwin — cucumbers up to 6 lb. weight, Chinese cabbage, English and Chinese beans, pie-melons, pumpkins of two kinds — one pumpkin vine yielded 622 lb. of fruit. Watermelons run up to 20 to 30 lb. weight and solid right through ; they bear all the year round. Two years ago they received a lot of fruit trees and plants from the Government Experimental Garden at Fannie Bay; amongst them were three rooted cuttings of mulberries, two of which died, and about fifty pineapple plants. When the only mulberry started into growth cuttings were made, and there are now fifteen trees, some of which are from 12 to 15 feet high, and cover a diameter of fully 20 feet. They are all loaded with fruit, rich black mulberries, quite equal for size and flavour to those grown in the southern colonies, but the great beauty about these trees is that they bear for nine months in the year, resting in June, July, and August. The fifty pineapple plants have increased to over 700, nearly all in bearing, some having two or three pines on a plant; they bear all the year round; some of the fruit taken as they came weighed 5 lb. each. With plenty of fruit all through the year, plenty of fresh milk and butter, game and fish in profusion, and cool breezes all the time, it is little wonder that all hands are healthy.' :o :o :o :D :D :D :D  8-) [South Australian Register (Adelaide, SA), Thursday 5 January 1888]

Quote:

The police at Roper River report there is a rumour among the natives there that Mr. Watson, the Manager for Mr. J. A. Macartney, and one of his men have been speared by die natives at Florida Station, but the police doubt the accuracy of the statement, as they believe information would have been sent them if an attack had taken place. [South Australian Register (Adelaide, SA) Tuesday 24 January 1893]

Quote:

Apropos to the reported Castlereagh Bay murder, it was only by the last S.S. Adelaide voyage that a young man named Hill (a connection of the firm of Hill, Clark & Co., of Sydney) went round to inspect Florida. He should have got there about the time -the murder was committed, and if so he would be in rather a queer fix himself, anticipating, as he must have done, the presence of Mr. Watson at the station, and being a perfect stranger to the locality... ...It is more than likely that the alleged murder by blacks of Watson and McKay corresponds with the reported murder in the Borroloola district, of which some mention was made last week. McKay was not long ago engaged driving between the Elsey and Pine Creek. It is a singular co- incidence that two of the same name should have met their fate under such cruel circumstances about the same time. That is, of course, assuming the Florida murder to be a fact. The co-incidence is strengthened by the report that the man who died of thirst at Brunette Station and the man who was speared by blacks at Florida Station are brothers. Moreover, they are said to have been two of the best bushmen in the Territory... ...By the S.S. Adelaide mail a report his come to town respecting a supposed murder in the Castlereagh Bay district. The tenor of the report is that two white men-Mr. John Watson (the manager of Mr. J. A. Macartney's station properties) and a stockman named McKay were speared by blacks at Florida Station.- Information to this effect was given to Constable Scott, of the Roper River police camp, by some natives, and up to the time of the Adelaide's departure for here the constable was unable to prove whether the rumour was true or false. From all we can hear of the matter there would seem to be some very good reasons for feeling the gravest concern for the lives of the two men named...the story runs that one night while they slept in camp they were attacked by natives and killed. There is nothing improbable in the report, and we feel disposed to believe that another terrible murder will have to be added to our already overstocked criminal records [Northern Territory Times and Gazette (Darwin, NT) Friday 27 January 1893]

falah wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 9:46pm:

if only the Europeans could conquer Arnhem Land

You do not realise it, but what you are saying is that Europeans could conquer your sorry, backward, Islamic Ottoman caliphate arses in the Middle East but were powerless against some spear-wielding, bare-arse Islamic Abos in Arnhem Land.

This is what's meant by the Islamic disconnect between what you fantasize about and what actually is. But as I said, you do not realise this.

Carry on.  This is the advantage the West has over you - you just have no fooking idea how stupid you are.  Thank god you are Arabs. If you were anything else - Swiss, German, English,  we'd be fooked. Thank God Islam is Arabic.

Soren wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 11:46pm:

falah wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:46pm: if only the Europeans could conquer Arnhem Land You do not realise it, but what you are saying is that Europeans could conquer your sorry, backward, Islamic Ottoman caliphate arses in the Middle East but were powerless against some spear-wielding, bare-arse Islamic Abos in Arnhem Land. This is what's meant by the Islamic disconnect between what you fantasize about and what actually is. But as I said, you do not realise this. Carry on.  This is the advantage the West has over you - you just have no fooking idea how stupid you are.  Thank god you are Arabs. If you were anything else - Swiss, German, English,  we'd be fooked. Thank God Islam is Arabic.

Hey mate - if you are European, why don't you frigging go live there and leave Aussies in peace with our own culture - we are sick of hearing about it.

Soren wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 11:46pm:

falah wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:46pm: if only the Europeans could conquer Arnhem Land You do not realise it, but what you are saying is that Europeans could conquer your sorry, backward, Islamic Ottoman caliphate arses in the Middle East

You have heard of something called World War One? You know, armies mobilised and all that sort of thing.



Soren wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 11:46pm:

but were powerless against some spear-wielding, bare-arse Islamic Abos in Arnhem Land.

Unfortunately you are to retarded to follow the conversation, but it has been mentioned that the frontier war in Australia was mainly fought between Aborigines and settlers not the army.

Perhaps an exception was made in Tasmania, but this genocide caused the British to much embarrassment on the international stage, so it was decided to leave the genocide up to settlers with police backing them up occasionally when things got a little too hot them to handle.

corporate_whitey wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:27am:

Hey mate - if you are European, why don't you frigging go live there and leave Aussies in peace with our own culture - we are sick of hearing about it.

You are the guy in the middle. We are standing around, amazed and disturbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qurTK_0re3Y

falah wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:34am:

Soren wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 11:46pm: falah wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:46pm: if only the Europeans could conquer Arnhem Land You do not realise it, but what you are saying is that Europeans could conquer your sorry, backward, Islamic Ottoman caliphate arses in the Middle East You have heard of something called World War One? You know, armies mobilised and all that sort of thing. Soren wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 11:46pm: but were powerless against some spear-wielding, bare-arse Islamic Abos in Arnhem Land. Unfortunately you are to retarded to follow the conversation, but it has been mentioned that the frontier war in Australia was mainly fought between Aborigines and settlers not the army. Perhaps an exception was made in Tasmania, but this genocide caused the British to much embarrassment on the international stage, so it was decided to leave the genocide up to settlers with police backing them up occasionally when things got a little too hot them to handle.

Kicking the stuffing out of the Caliphate was easy because they had armies but kicking the sh!t out of the Abos was impossible because the army was busy kicking the sh!t out of the Caliphate.

Is that what you are saying? Sounds like it.

I just want to know why you keep talking about Europe and the old dart - this is Australia - if you cant embrace it and become it - get out.  But dont bring your provincial attitudes and conflicts from Europe and inflict it on our culture

Some how he thinks I would side with him over a fellow Australian who happens to be Aborigine just because he comes from England or Europe?  Nah...dont think so - Aussies before foreigners.

Winning war against people who not only don't have modern weapons, but don't even have a concept for war is not difficult. To celebrate it a hundred years later as a national triumph takes a real RW mindset.

If you come from England and want to pick on third generation Chinese Australians...have a guess who I side with?  The Aussie - thats who...not you you pommy git.

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FD - It is not absurd Grey. Even Falah managed to acknowledge this in discussing why there are so many large areas around Darwin that are not used for anything. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with grazing will understand the risks associated with waterlogged soil.

Digging drainage ditches is not uncommon in farming.

Grey wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 1:30am:

Quote: FD - It is not absurd Grey. Even Falah managed to acknowledge this in discussing why there are so many large areas around Darwin that are not used for anything. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with grazing will understand the risks associated with waterlogged soil. Digging drainage ditches is not uncommon in farming.

It is uncommon when the water is a meter deep and there are crocodiles in it. This is not some little patch of bog in an otherwise well drained area. As Falah put it, it is "large areas of flat land" under monsoonal rain. A lot of it is only just above sea level. Think about it Grey. Have a look back at Falah's own evidence of where they graze cattle. There is a consistent pattern of staying away from the wettest coastal areas, regardless of aboriginal activity. Even around Darwin there are massive areas that are not used for anything at all, in between the even bigger areas of nature reserves and aboriginal land.


Quote:

Winning war against people who not only don't have modern weapons, but don't even have a concept for war is not difficult. To celebrate it a hundred years later as a national triumph takes a real RW mindset.

There was no war Grey. The only person claiming a victory is Falah. According to him that is the only reason why there is a patch of aboriginal land in a region that is otherwise used for various reasons like nothing, nature reserves, aboriginal land, and cattle farms the size of european countries.

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 8:43am:

Grey wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 1:30am: Quote: FD - It is not absurd Grey. Even Falah managed to acknowledge this in discussing why there are so many large areas around Darwin that are not used for anything. Anyone with the slightest familiarity with grazing will understand the risks associated with waterlogged soil. Digging drainage ditches is not uncommon in farming. Even around Darwin there are massive areas that are not used for anything at all, in between the even bigger areas of nature reserves and aboriginal land.

Darwin is hundreds of kilomtres from Arnhem Land. It is the least productive land that Europeans had to be content with due to hostile Indigenous people the more productive Arnhem Land.

Did you even bother to read the newspaper article about how successful the Florida cattle station was?

If you knew anything about Arnhem Land you would know that the the flat land is the inland plateau. Much of the coastal areas have gently sloping hills.

Only about 1% of Arnhem Land is swamplands . Compare that to the Darwin area that the Europeans had to be content with which is nearly half swamplands.






freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 8:43am:

Quote: Winning war against people who not only don't have modern weapons, but don't even have a concept for war is not difficult. To celebrate it a hundred years later as a national triumph takes a real RW mindset. There was no war Grey. The only person claiming a victory is Falah.

Go read some history books you ignoramus.


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On December 1, 1826, the Tasmanian Colonial Times declared that:     We make no pompous display of Philanthropy. We say this unequivocally SELF DEFENSE IS THE FIRST LAW OF NATURE. THE GOVERNMENT MUST REMOVE THE NATIVES – IF NOT, THEY WILL BE HUNTED DOWN LIKE WILD BEASTS, AND DESTROYED!     – Colonial Times and Tasmanian Advertiser, 1826

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War

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Did you even bother to read the newspaper article about how successful the Florida cattle station was?

According to your article it had less than 1/10th as many cattle as another existing farm you used as an example and tried to portray as small, and which supports only one family.


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Only about 1% of Arnhem Land is swamplands

So you keep saying. You even posted a map purporting to show all the swamps up north, but went all silent when I asked you where it was from.


How much money is currently made from cattle farming the Yolngu area?

Falah, just about every example you give of how suitable the area is for European farming methods merely demonstrates your complete ignorance of what makes good farmland. You have a particular focus on pre-agricultural assessments made from ignorance. The letter you posted explaining the cause of failure even listed climate as the dominant reason. Your attempts show a desperate search for any evidence that goes against the grain, no matter how flawed or dated, and a deliberate rejection of the overwhelming evidence of the marginal suitability of the area for farming.

Why are you relying on the assessments made before farming was attempted rather than the assessments made after the farms failed?

Why do you think the actual farmers themselves listed climate as the dominant cause of failure?

Why is the example of Broome not pertinent? Is it because of the only two examples you have of areas that had frequent contact, this one demonstrates the exact opposite of what you are arguing? It is about the only significant white settlement in thousands of kilometers of coastline from Darwin to Perth - coastline where aborigines that had even less contact with maccassans got huge tracts of land handed to them much earlier?

Do you still think southern aborigines would have been better off if they were more hostile and violent? Why have you gone silent on this comparison that you started out with?

Are you aware of the common themes in Australian farming and fisheries of areas that initially appeared fertile but turned out not be be so?

Why do you think the areas of the NT that are farmed have such an extremely low population density and such enormous farms, many the size of european countries?

What fraction of the 'big buffalo leather industry' in the NT came from farmed buffalo? Why do you think it would be profitable to farm an animal that is already a pest that people are trying to get rid of?

Do you understand the difference in suitability for wet tropical areas between cattle and water buffalo?

Are you aware of any health problems experience by cattle in waterlogged soil?

What do you think happens when monsoonal rain falls on "large areas of flat land" in crocodile country?

Why do you think the green looking plain you used as evidence has no trees on it?

Why do you think the aborigines in your example would only bring in cattle to graze on their land at a time when the cattle were going dirt cheap (due to the export ban) if the government helped pay for it?

How many of the '50 jobs' in your example are full time?

Can you explain how massacring aborigines helped the aborigines and drove the white people off?

Why did you use a map that deliberately left off the index showing the large areas around Darwin that are not used for anything? It also left off the other enormous areas of the NT assigned to aboriginal or conservation use.

Why do you think there is an enormous nature reserve (one of the largest in the country) between Darwin and the Yolngu areas? Were we so scared of the aborigines we needed a few hundred kilometers of no mans land?

Where did you get your map of northern swamps from? Do you think it is complete?

Do you still think that the colour on google maps is a good indication of suitability for european farming methods? Why do you think there is a consistent trend in your own evidence for the cattle farms to be south of the wettest areas, regardless of aboriginal hostility?

Do you still think that the potential for twenty farms in an area the size of Tasmania indicates fertile land?

Why did you give Mildura as an example of how the southeast also has a low population density in fertile land, when this one town has a population roughly equal to one third of the NT's population outside of Darwin, including aborigines?

Why do you think Indonesian farms indicate that the NT is suitable for european farming methods?

Did you consider at all the example of the Ord River Scheme?

Are you aware of any factor other than farm proifitability per unit area that is a better predictor of population density?

Are you aware of the experience of south African farmers as they attempted to colonise areas further north?

Why do you think that the example of the US and British armies in North America getting involved in disputes and moving the natives on to the least fertile areas supports your argument? Do you think our army would have been too scared of the aborigines, or would have been defeated by them?


Was it just an undergrad thesis?


Doesn't it simply make more sense that the remoteness of these tribes above anything else allowed them to get away with their hostility and violence, rather than causing it?

[url]Did you consider at all the example of the Ord River Scheme?[/url]

A friend of mine was for a time Australia's leading agricultural economist. He has worked overseas for most of his life, " I prefer to work for people whose economies are basket cases rather than people who are determined to make their economy a basket case." He's currently in the Southern Caucus, but has worked in Africa & South America in some of the most challenging environments on the planet.

He has said of the Ord. "It is impossible not too make money out of such an environment. The problems of the Ord are all about corporate greed. If the place had been opened to, and settled by refugees it would be a paradise."

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He has said of the Ord. "It is impossible not too make money out of such an environment. The problems of the Ord are all about corporate greed. If the place had been opened to, and settled by refugees it would be a paradise."

I see, so corporate greed is preventing corporations from making money where it is impossible not to make money?

Are you sure he is an economist?

Falah - the example you gave earlier of a farm and meatworks providing jobs for aborigines in Ahrnem land. Is it true that this would not have been possible without a massive handout from the government? Do you think European immigrants in the 1800s got such massive handouts, or did the government decide to let farms survive based on their own profitability?

Also, rather than being on the rolling hills or fertile plateau you talk about, it appears to be down on a crocodile infested floodplain that is under water for most of the year. Can you explain why aborigines would set up their flagship cattle farm on a floodplain that they can't let the cattle on for a big chunk of the year, rather than the more fertile and suitable lands you described?

The farm is not even in the Yolngu area. Nor is the other 'planned' farm you used as an example, which is not even going ahead despite the opportunity that arose with the drop in cattle prices, because the aborigine promoting the idea could not get the government to give him a bag of money.

Is it true that the plateau you described is referred to by local aborigines as the 'stone country'?

If the land is so suitable for farming, why is it that even the current owners have such trouble turning a profit from it?

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

Quote: Did you even bother to read the newspaper article about how successful the Florida cattle station was? According to your article it had less than 1/10th as many cattle as another existing farm you used as an example and tried to portray as small, and which supports only one family.

Don't lie Freeliar, the farm that you are referrring to is huge, and I never said it was small. It is one of the biggest farms in Australia. Just another example of how Islam-haters like you tell lies.




freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

How much money is currently made from cattle farming the Yolngu area?

How much money would you expect to be made in an area where farmers were forced out of?




freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

Falah, just about every example you give of how suitable the area is for European farming methods merely demonstrates your complete ignorance of what makes good farmland. You have a particular focus on pre-agricultural assessments made from ignorance.

Don't lie Freeliar. I posted a newspaper article from an eyewitness saying how well the Farm in Eastern Arnhem Land was doing.

Did you even bother to read the descriptions of how big the fruit was and how much better the trees grew in Arnhem Land than the Darwin area?







freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

Do you still think southern aborigines would have been better off if they were more hostile and violent? Why have you gone silent on this comparison that you started out with?

If they had have killed Captain Cook from the start, they would probably be a lot better off.



freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

Why do you think the areas of the NT that are farmed have such an extremely low population density and such enormous farms, many the size of european countries?

You retard, population density has nothing to with farming viablity. There are farms in areas with much less population density. So farms are clearly viable in lowly populated areas.