I don't think I have ever come across any mention of how they would propose to run the economy better than the two major parties.

So please educate the phallic one (me). I promise to keep an open mind, but I would like to see links of proof too in support of these policies.

Phallic Baldwin wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 9:37pm:

I don't think I have ever come across any mention of how they would propose to run the economy better than the two major parties. So please educate the phallic one (me). I promise to keep an open mind, but I would like to see links of proof too in support of these policies.

I doubt the Greens would know what an economic policy was if it chained itself to a tree.

Quote:

Principles The Australian Greens believe that:     human economies exist within, and are dependent upon, natural systems; resource management is, therefore, central to good economic management.     equity of access to the essentials of life and promoting equality are central goals for a civilised society.     the free market economy, by externalising the environmental and social costs of greenhouse gas emissions is creating the greatest market failure of all time, namely climate change.     the cost of addressing climate change now is far less than the cost of failing to do so.     timely and cost effective solutions to social, environmental and economic challenges can be achieved by a cohesive industry policy.     the fulfilment of human potential and the enrichment of lives is best achieved when people work together for common goals.     sustainable, equitable economic progress is best achieved by government ownership of natural monopolies and new government investment in strategic assets.     government finances must be sustainable over the long run; budget deficits and surpluses must balance each other over the business cycle.     long term government borrowing is the preferred mechanism for funding long term infrastructure investments.     governments have an important role to play in regulating markets and correcting market failures, but markets where they function well have an important role to play in the allocation of resources.     social, political and economic institutions must allow individuals and communities to determine their own priorities.     the Goods and Services Tax (GST) is unfair, regressive and places an unfair burden on individuals and small business.     progressive taxes such as income taxes are preferable to regressive forms of taxation such as the GST.     national governments must not allow the pressures from the globalisation of trade to override the democratic preferences of their citizens.     international institutions such as the World trade Organisation (WTO) the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank must assist countries to achieve their democratically determined priorities within ecological constraints. Goals The Australian Greens want:     an economy that meets human needs without unnecessarily damaging the natural environment.     full accountability of government and corporations to the broader community.     an equitable taxation system that generates the revenue necessary to fund public services at the appropriate level of government.     international trade regulations that ensure human rights and that protect the natural environment.     industry policy and major infrastructure decisions to be consistent with national environmental and social goals.     industry assistance, and the granting of tax concessions, that align industry development with national goals. Measures The Australian Greens will Taxation     reduce inequities in the current personal tax system by:     reducing tax breaks for high income earners;     removing Fringe Benefits Tax concessions which promote increased use of motor vehicles;     removing the concessional arrangements for Capital Gains Tax;     only allowing losses from an investment to be offset against income from the same investment;     abolishing the 30% Private Health Insurance Rebate in order to increase funding for public hospitals;     taxing family trusts in the same way as companies;     eliminating high rates of effective marginal taxation for those on welfare benefits; and     introduce a new top marginal tax rate of 50 per cent on incomes of $1 million or over.     introduce an estate tax with full provisions to protect the family farm, the family home and small business with a threshold of $5 million as indexed from the year 2010.     conduct an inquiry with a view to implementing changes to the tax system that address the negative impacts of the GST on:     income distribution;     environmental sustainability; and     business administration costs.     oppose any increase or extension to the GST.     implement a gradual and long term shift in the tax system from work based taxes to taxes on natural resources and pollution including:     a carbon tax levied on generators of mains-supplied electricity or gas     a national carbon trading scheme; and     other ecological taxes and charges at a level sufficient enough that their prices reflect the full environmental cost of their production, use or disposal.     introduce a system of minimum personal and corporate tax legislation to reduce the opportunities for individuals and companies to use loopholes to minimise their tax obligations.     conduct a full review of the superannuation system with the aim of reducing its complexity and establishing progressive rates of superannuation taxation.     return the company tax rate to 33% and broaden the company tax base by reducing tax concessions.     limit tax deductibility for salaries & salary-related expenses for any individual employee to $1million per year.     end subsidies and tax concessions to environmentally harmful industries. Economic Governance and Industry Development     implement triple bottom line accounting measures at all levels of government to incorporate social, environmental and financial impacts into policy development and assessment.     introduce broad measures of genuine national progress to supplement the current measures of GDP, including the production of a comprehensive national balance sheet that reflects this.     require all listed companies to report on standardised social and environmental indicators in their annual reports.     provide the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission with enhanced powers to prevent the formation of monopolies through ‘creeping acquisitions’ and to divest monopolies and oligopolies of assets if they are abusing their market power.     direct industry assistance towards the energy efficiency and renewable energy industries.     require major proposals to be subject to climate change impact assessment with the aim of reducing greenhouse gases. Investment and Overseas Relations     strengthen the regulatory framework for banks and financial institutions to ensure that consumers and investors are better protected.     ensure that natural monopolies and other essential public services are under public ownership.     reduce Australia’s foreign debt and foreign ownership through use of trade, financial and regulatory measures to ensure more productive use of foreign capital and strengthening of Australian manufacturing, recognising the need to support economies in developing countries.     require the Foreign Investment Review Board to broaden its assessment of the national interest to explicitly include Australia’s long run energy security.     revoke sections of the National Competition Policy that seek to impose market values in public, social and environmental areas of Australian life. Authorised and printed by Derek Schild, Australian Greens, 8-10 Hobart Place Canberra 2601

http://greens.org.au/policies/sustainable-economy/economics

Not saying I agree with them all but there they are.

It's a wishlist to Santa dsmithy

It's like a beauty queen saying "I want world peace". Sounds nice, means nothing but it'll never happen

There is hardly anything concrete in that smithy.

"High income earners" - totally subjective. Those idiots think $150k is high income.

"Remove tax breaks" - really? What ones?

You could go down the whole list.
They have no idea what they want....

Bunch of aging hippies and queers in a party basically.

Thoughts?

lol @greens thanks dsmithy.

Karnal wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 10:38pm:

Thoughts?

An economic policy is very specific eg like a recipe.

A string of recipes tied together is needed to create a great dinner ie run the economy

The offering you've got from the Greens is not even a recipe. It's simply saying "we want food"

As andrei pointed out - they don't even mention what food they want. The Greens are simply saying "Me hungry. Me want food"

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 10:23pm:

There is hardly anything concrete in that smithy. "High income earners" - totally subjective. Those idiots think $150k is high income. "Remove tax breaks" - really? What ones? You could go down the whole list. They have no idea what they want.... Bunch of aging hippies and queers in a party basically.

Theres a pdf link somewhere on the page to more indepth if you could be bothered, I couldn't ;)

bring back DEATH TAXES.

Quote:

government finances must be sustainable over the long run; budget deficits and surpluses must balance each other over the business cycle.

There's a good start. Who would have thought, they are actually fiscal conservatives at heart.

cods wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 5:10am:

bring back DEATH TAXES.

A political party mature enough to use death an taxes in the same sentence. Well not quite they did call it an estate tax. The Henry review found a bequest tax would be a "relatively efficient means" of taxing savings. If it was at a low flat rate and limited to large bequests excluding the family home, business or farm, it would be an entirely sensible policy. It would provide scope to offer tax incentives to encourage savings or asset formation at other stages of our life.

http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/FinalReport.aspx?doc=html/publications/Papers/Final_Report_Part_2/chapter_a3-1.htm

If we were allowed to carefully evaluate an estate tax without the hysteria, perhaps we'd find it's quite an efficient tax and not nearly as nasty as it sounds

MOTR wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 5:41am:

cods wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 5:10am: bring back DEATH TAXES. A political party mature enough to use death an taxes in the same sentence. Well not quite they did call it an estate tax. The Henry review found a bequest tax would be a "relatively efficient means" of taxing savings. If it was at a low flat rate and limited to large bequests excluding the family home, business or farm, it would be an entirely sensible policy. It would provide scope to offer tax incentives to encourage savings or asset formation at other stages of our life. http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/FinalReport.aspx?doc=html/publications/Papers/Final_Report_Part_2/chapter_a3-1.htm

of course everything starts out nice and easy....

once they have their foot in the door.. thats when things go pearshaped take a look at the changes over the years to super funds..

the only thing that hasnt changed is the GST

but I bet somewhere someone is working overtime to circumnavigate that one.


havent you heard of that old saying

"give them an inch and they will take a yard".

it goes back a long long way..so it must have some meaning to it!

Closing off taxation options forces governments to rely too heavily on those they have already secured. We have an incredibly inefficient tax system that creates all sorts of distortions. I'd support any political party that offered to introduce the Henry tax reforms in total.

MOTR wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 5:59am:

Closing off taxation options forces governments to rely too heavily on those they have already secured. We have an incredibly inefficient tax system that creates all sorts of distortions. I'd support any political party that offered to introduce the Henry tax reforms in total.

ok a lot of responsibility goes with that dont forget.

Where are the Coalitions economic policies?
We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback.
On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 7:12am:

Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition.

oh poor you!! sob sob

<< Where are the Coalitions economic policies? >>
......................................................................

It's a bit difficult to release what you don't have. They'll have to get onto that within the next year or so.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 7:12am:

Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition.

These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 7:56am:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy

Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate?
The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky
You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership.

Phallic Baldwin wrote on Jun 5^th, 2012 at 9:37pm:

I don't think I have ever come across any mention of how they would propose to run the economy better than the two major parties. So please educate the phallic one (me). I promise to keep an open mind, but I would like to see links of proof too in support of these policies.

The GREENS release their policies every election, the stupid among you just don't listen. Here is a deal, when phony Tony releases his policies I'll ring Adm Bandt and ask him to release his.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:06am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership.

Where are Labor's policies for the next election?

At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:20am:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel

You will need my vote in the Senate  :P

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:26am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P

I love DD's  8-)

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:08am:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-)

I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point

the greens economic policy ??


"There is an economy, but we don't agree with it."

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point

Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!!

:D :D :D :D

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 10:52am:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D

And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them?

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them?

More people hate Abbott than Gillard. He should go first!  ;D

Gist wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 12:23pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? More people hate Abbott than Gillard. He should go first!  ;D

Abbott is the preferred PM.

try again.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 12:45pm:

Gist wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:23pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? More people hate Abbott than Gillard. He should go first!  ;D Abbott is the preferred PM. try again.

Comprehension just isn't your thing is it? I said "hate", not "prefer". Maybe you could take some remedial reading and writing lessons?  :D :D

Gist wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 12:55pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:45pm: Gist wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:23pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? More people hate Abbott than Gillard. He should go first!  ;D Abbott is the preferred PM. try again. Comprehension just isn't your thing is it? I said "hate", not "prefer". Maybe you could take some remedial reading and writing lessons?  :D :D

The polls say around 60% of voters dont want either of them..and we always live our lives by the weekly polls  :D

That list does not show Green polices. It shows green aspirational goals. Apparently they dont know the difference.

'We want world peace' is NOT a policy

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 10:52am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them?

actually that is NOT what they are saying at all. Thas the trouble with amateurs and fools interpreting statistics.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 1:06pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 10:52am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? actually that is NOT what they are saying at all. Thas the trouble with amateurs and fools interpreting statistics.

More than 60% of voters polled want Rudd and Turnbull over Gillard and Abbott and are dissatisfied with Abbott and Gillards performances...whats your reading of those figures?

.....

We were only discussing the other night how bad a nanny state Australia is - with its rules and regulations on everything.

The Greens would make it even worse.

Don't do this, don't do that etc etc

People who do not live in this countries views and interference in our political affairs are not valued, welcomed or wanted.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

We were only discussing the other night how bad a nanny state Australia is - with its rules and regulations on everything. The Greens would make it even worse. Don't do this, don't do that etc etc

It works in Singapore

This aint Singapore and we dont take crap from communists.  You should leave Australia while you can.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 2:48pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 2:41pm: We were only discussing the other night how bad a nanny state Australia is - with its rules and regulations on everything. The Greens would make it even worse. Don't do this, don't do that etc etc It works in Singapore

Where freedom is a pipe dream.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:04pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 2:48pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 2:41pm: We were only discussing the other night how bad a nanny state Australia is - with its rules and regulations on everything. The Greens would make it even worse. Don't do this, don't do that etc etc It works in Singapore Where freedom is a pipe dream.

Asian democracy..we need it in Australia

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:07pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:04pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 2:48pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 2:41pm: We were only discussing the other night how bad a nanny state Australia is - with its rules and regulations on everything. The Greens would make it even worse. Don't do this, don't do that etc etc It works in Singapore Where freedom is a pipe dream. Asian democracy..we need it in Australia

Asia and democracy.

Goes together like shepherds pie and ice cream.

Adel, you are my Asia point man.

I am trying to keep costs down for a UK - Australia visit.
I am all good from Europe to Asia with Air France, then I have to pick one of their dodgeball airlines into Australia.

Rank these in order of acceptability -

Air China - out of Beijing
Garuda Indonesia - out of Dengpasar
China Southern - out of Guangzhou
Thai - out of Bangkok

What do you reckon?

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:14pm:

Adel, you are my Asia point man. I am trying to keep costs down for a UK - Australia visit. I am all good from Europe to Asia with Air France, then I have to pick one of their dodgeball airlines into Australia. Rank these in order of acceptability - Air China - out of Beijing Garuda Indonesia - out of Dengpasar China Southern - out of Guangzhou Thai - out of Bangkok What do you reckon?

I'd use Thai first Air China second but I usually fly Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:14pm:

Adel, you are my Asia point man. I am trying to keep costs down for a UK - Australia visit. I am all good from Europe to Asia with Air France, then I have to pick one of their dodgeball airlines into Australia. Rank these in order of acceptability - Air China - out of Beijing Garuda Indonesia - out of Dengpasar China Southern - out of Guangzhou Thai - out of Bangkok What do you reckon?

I like China Southern. I think they have a flight now from London/Sydney via Guangzhou

Business Lounge at Guangzhou is not very good though. But then again the price is cheap.

Service is great though

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:14pm: Adel, you are my Asia point man. I am trying to keep costs down for a UK - Australia visit. I am all good from Europe to Asia with Air France, then I have to pick one of their dodgeball airlines into Australia. Rank these in order of acceptability - Air China - out of Beijing Garuda Indonesia - out of Dengpasar China Southern - out of Guangzhou Thai - out of Bangkok What do you reckon? I'd use Thai first Air China second but I usually fly Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines

Thats what I was thinking.
Garuda is not featuring at the front of my thoughts right now.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:27pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:18pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:14pm: Adel, you are my Asia point man. I am trying to keep costs down for a UK - Australia visit. I am all good from Europe to Asia with Air France, then I have to pick one of their dodgeball airlines into Australia. Rank these in order of acceptability - Air China - out of Beijing Garuda Indonesia - out of Dengpasar China Southern - out of Guangzhou Thai - out of Bangkok What do you reckon? I'd use Thai first Air China second but I usually fly Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines Thats what I was thinking. Garuda is not featuring at the front of my thoughts right now.

Ive never flown Garuda but I hear it used to be like Aeroflot in the 70's. Kiss your loved ones goodbye when boarding and keep your life insurance up to date.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:30pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:27pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:18pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:14pm: Adel, you are my Asia point man. I am trying to keep costs down for a UK - Australia visit. I am all good from Europe to Asia with Air France, then I have to pick one of their dodgeball airlines into Australia. Rank these in order of acceptability - Air China - out of Beijing Garuda Indonesia - out of Dengpasar China Southern - out of Guangzhou Thai - out of Bangkok What do you reckon? I'd use Thai first Air China second but I usually fly Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines Thats what I was thinking. Garuda is not featuring at the front of my thoughts right now. Ive never flown Garuda but I hear it used to be like Aeroflot in the 70's. Kiss your loved ones goodbye when boarding and keep your life insurance up to date.

Me either but I was told once by a mate they were taking off, the door to the cockpit flew open and an argument was breaking out between the Captain and the FO on whose hand should be on the controls.

I would like to think he was joking but I dont think he was.

Anyway, enough de-railing the thread. I may look at China Southern.

PS - Qantas can fking jam that fare up their arse.
Most expensive and all you get is some miserable set of b*tches serving you with attitude.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 3:34pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:30pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:27pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:18pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 3:14pm: Adel, you are my Asia point man. I am trying to keep costs down for a UK - Australia visit. I am all good from Europe to Asia with Air France, then I have to pick one of their dodgeball airlines into Australia. Rank these in order of acceptability - Air China - out of Beijing Garuda Indonesia - out of Dengpasar China Southern - out of Guangzhou Thai - out of Bangkok What do you reckon? I'd use Thai first Air China second but I usually fly Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines Thats what I was thinking. Garuda is not featuring at the front of my thoughts right now. Ive never flown Garuda but I hear it used to be like Aeroflot in the 70's. Kiss your loved ones goodbye when boarding and keep your life insurance up to date. Me either but I was told once by a mate they were taking off, the door to the cockpit flew open and an argument was breaking out between the Captain and the FO on whose hand should be on the controls. I would like to think he was joking but I dont think he was. Anyway, enough de-railing the thread. I may look at China Southern. PS - Qantas can fking jam that fare up their arse. Most expensive and all you get is some miserable set of b*tches serving you with attitude.

I only use qantas on regional flights these days and only if I cant get anything else. I do agree that the people working for qantas have the worst attitude of any airline Ive flown with.
Singapore is always my first choice for international flights because they will bend over backwards for the customer.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:06pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 10:52am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? actually that is NOT what they are saying at all. Thas the trouble with amateurs and fools interpreting statistics. More than 60% of voters polled want Rudd and Turnbull over Gillard and Abbott and are dissatisfied with Abbott and Gillards performances...whats your reading of those figures?

classic statistical analysis would never ask such a far-reaching issue with just one question. Its only value is as  trend. It has little absolute value. It is the same about asking ANY question regarding a remote possibility - the result ends up very nebuous with a very high margin of error. The assumption is that people prefer turnball ovr abbot whereas the figure is approximately the inverse of his approval rating meaning.... (wait for it).... they dont like abbott which is exactly what the approval figures say. putting the most likely alternative in the question simply acts a alightening rod for discontent - not ann indicator of plumbing the depths of peoples actual opinions. It is the same thing with simplistic questions such as 'do you belive in climate change?' and then using the overwhelming majority responses as a vindication for whatever action you want.

good polling is about asking the right qestion and this question has value but only in relative terms - not as an absolute measure.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 4:47pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:12pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:06pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 10:52am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? actually that is NOT what they are saying at all. Thas the trouble with amateurs and fools interpreting statistics. More than 60% of voters polled want Rudd and Turnbull over Gillard and Abbott and are dissatisfied with Abbott and Gillards performances...whats your reading of those figures? classic statistical analysis would never ask such a far-reaching issue with just one question. Its only value is as  trend. It has little absolute value. It is the same about asking ANY question regarding a remote possibility - the result ends up very nebuous with a very high margin of error. The assumption is that people prefer turnball ovr abbot whereas the figure is approximately the inverse of his approval rating meaning.... (wait for it).... they dont like abbott which is exactly what the approval figures say. putting the most likely alternative in the question simply acts a alightening rod for discontent - not ann indicator of plumbing the depths of peoples actual opinions. It is the same thing with simplistic questions such as 'do you belive in climate change?' and then using the overwhelming majority responses as a vindication for whatever action you want. good polling is about asking the right qestion and this question has value but only in relative terms - not as an absolute measure.

My point exactly on the polls you keep quoting

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 4:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 4:47pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:12pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:06pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 10:52am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? actually that is NOT what they are saying at all. Thas the trouble with amateurs and fools interpreting statistics. More than 60% of voters polled want Rudd and Turnbull over Gillard and Abbott and are dissatisfied with Abbott and Gillards performances...whats your reading of those figures? classic statistical analysis would never ask such a far-reaching issue with just one question. Its only value is as  trend. It has little absolute value. It is the same about asking ANY question regarding a remote possibility - the result ends up very nebuous with a very high margin of error. The assumption is that people prefer turnball ovr abbot whereas the figure is approximately the inverse of his approval rating meaning.... (wait for it).... they dont like abbott which is exactly what the approval figures say. putting the most likely alternative in the question simply acts a alightening rod for discontent - not ann indicator of plumbing the depths of peoples actual opinions. It is the same thing with simplistic questions such as 'do you belive in climate change?' and then using the overwhelming majority responses as a vindication for whatever action you want. good polling is about asking the right qestion and this question has value but only in relative terms - not as an absolute measure. My point exactly on the polls you keep quoting

nice try but no cigar. Im referring to peripheral polls that have no measuring stick for accuracy. the voting intentions polls DO. your real problem is really an embarrasing one. You cant accept information you do not understand or do not like. I hope you dont monitor groundwater the same way.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 5:06pm:

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 4:48pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 4:47pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:12pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:06pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 10:52am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? actually that is NOT what they are saying at all. Thas the trouble with amateurs and fools interpreting statistics. More than 60% of voters polled want Rudd and Turnbull over Gillard and Abbott and are dissatisfied with Abbott and Gillards performances...whats your reading of those figures? classic statistical analysis would never ask such a far-reaching issue with just one question. Its only value is as  trend. It has little absolute value. It is the same about asking ANY question regarding a remote possibility - the result ends up very nebuous with a very high margin of error. The assumption is that people prefer turnball ovr abbot whereas the figure is approximately the inverse of his approval rating meaning.... (wait for it).... they dont like abbott which is exactly what the approval figures say. putting the most likely alternative in the question simply acts a alightening rod for discontent - not ann indicator of plumbing the depths of peoples actual opinions. It is the same thing with simplistic questions such as 'do you belive in climate change?' and then using the overwhelming majority responses as a vindication for whatever action you want. good polling is about asking the right qestion and this question has value but only in relative terms - not as an absolute measure. My point exactly on the polls you keep quoting nice try but no cigar. Im referring to peripheral polls that have no measuring stick for accuracy. the voting intentions polls DO. your real problem is really an embarrasing one. You cant accept information you do not understand or do not like. I hope you dont monitor groundwater the same way.

You cant just pick and choose the opinion polls that suit your view of the day.
You dont like the polls that show Gillard and Abbott are disliked by the majority of the population but you call for the polls that say Labor is on the nose to be used as a guideline for an immediate election.
You can put it any way you like but you're proving my point better than I could ever do.

adelcrow wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 5:30pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 5:06pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 4:48pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 4:47pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:12pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:06pm: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 12:10pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 10:52am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:11am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:08am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:26am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:20am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:06am: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:56am: adelcrow wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 7:12am: Where are the Coalitions economic policies? We're told to wait until the next election before they let the cat out of the bag but at least the Greens respect the voters enough to have their policies out there for continual debate and feedback. On one hand we have an honest and open Greens Party and on the other we have a mean and tricky Coalition. These Green policies have not changed since Tyran O'saurus Rex was a boy Where are the coalitions policies for the next election and are they constantly being put forward by the party for debate? The Greens are honest and open..the Coalition is mean and tricky You dont have to like the Greens but at least everyone can access their policies and ask questions of the leadership. Where are Labor's policies for the next election? At 57/43 - we don't need your vote adel You will need my vote in the Senate  :P I love DD's  8-) I doubt you'll ever see one in your lifetime..no govt likes losing power to prove a point Based on the fact that 63% rejects the carbon tax and 57% wants it repealed??!!! :D :D :D :D And 60% of people hate both Gillard and Abbott and dont want either of them as PM..should we get rid of them? actually that is NOT what they are saying at all. Thas the trouble with amateurs and fools interpreting statistics. More than 60% of voters polled want Rudd and Turnbull over Gillard and Abbott and are dissatisfied with Abbott and Gillards performances...whats your reading of those figures? classic statistical analysis would never ask such a far-reaching issue with just one question. Its only value is as  trend. It has little absolute value. It is the same about asking ANY question regarding a remote possibility - the result ends up very nebuous with a very high margin of error. The assumption is that people prefer turnball ovr abbot whereas the figure is approximately the inverse of his approval rating meaning.... (wait for it).... they dont like abbott which is exactly what the approval figures say. putting the most likely alternative in the question simply acts a alightening rod for discontent - not ann indicator of plumbing the depths of peoples actual opinions. It is the same thing with simplistic questions such as 'do you belive in climate change?' and then using the overwhelming majority responses as a vindication for whatever action you want. good polling is about asking the right qestion and this question has value but only in relative terms - not as an absolute measure. My point exactly on the polls you keep quoting nice try but no cigar. Im referring to peripheral polls that have no measuring stick for accuracy. the voting intentions polls DO. your real problem is really an embarrasing one. You cant accept information you do not understand or do not like. I hope you dont monitor groundwater the same way. You cant just pick and choose the opinion polls that suit your view of the day. You dont like the polls that show Gillard and Abbott are disliked by the majority of the population but you call for the polls that say Labor is on the nose to be used as a guideline for an immediate election. You can put it any way you like but you're proving my point better than I could ever do.

You are an educated person so you should be able to understand this explantion even if stats wasnt your area of study.

the voting intention polls are VERY clear and well defined plus have a long legacy and are understood preceisely by respondents and analysts. They poll an intention on an actual event which will occur. The rudd/turnball question is quite different. It is a poll on an event which more than likely wont happen and the respondents know it, therefore greatly reducing the confidence level of the result. But primarily, the question polls little more than the obverse of the abbot/gillard question. When both leaders are so unpopular you would get a similar response (within 10%) if you used two other credible alternatives such as Crean/Hockey. Its basic statsictical analysis. you have to interpret and compensate for any intrinsic bias in the question - of which there is a significant amount in this question.

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 5:06pm:

Im referring to peripheral polls that have no measuring stick for accuracy. the voting intentions polls DO.

Define what you mean by "accuracy".

Gist wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 5:57pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 5:06pm: Im referring to peripheral polls that have no measuring stick for accuracy. the voting intentions polls DO. Define what you mean by "accuracy".

what would be the point. you either couldnt understand the answer or would reject it because you dont like it.

SKippys' prediction: "If Abbott and Gillard are the leaders Gillard will win the next election"


REALLY?

Why am I not surprised by this statement from skip?

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:02pm:

Gist wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 5:57pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 5:06pm: Im referring to peripheral polls that have no measuring stick for accuracy. the voting intentions polls DO. Define what you mean by "accuracy". what would be the point. you either couldnt understand the answer or would reject it because you dont like it.

In other words, you have NFI. You're just talking out of your arse again. As I thought!  ;D ;D

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:05pm:

SKippys' prediction: "If Abbott and Gillard are the leaders Gillard will win the next election" REALLY? Why am I not surprised by this statement from skip?

18 months to go, the polls WILL change, so may the leaders. If Abbott is still the Lib leader, Labor are in with a better chance than they are if he's not. I;m still comfortable with the statement.[/

skippy. wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:05pm: SKippys' prediction: "If Abbott and Gillard are the leaders Gillard will win the next election" REALLY? Why am I not surprised by this statement from skip? 18 months to go, the polls WILL change, so may the leaders. If Abbott is still the Lib leader, Labor are in with a better chance than they are if he's not. I;m still comfortable with the statement.

And it could change ever worse for Gillard and the Greens

If Abbott's still leader then Labor and Greens will be in a worse position than what it is today

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:33pm:

skippy. wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:30pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:05pm: SKippys' prediction: "If Abbott and Gillard are the leaders Gillard will win the next election" REALLY? Why am I not surprised by this statement from skip? 18 months to go, the polls WILL change, so may the leaders. If Abbott is still the Lib leader, Labor are in with a better chance than they are if he's not. I;m still comfortable with the statement. And it could change ever worse for Gillard and the Greens If Abbott's still leader then Labor and Greens will be in a worse position than what it is today

I have confidence my fellow Australians are not as stupid as the solid gold conga line dance troupe you hang out with.

skippy. wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:36pm:

Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:33pm: skippy. wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:30pm: Maqqa wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:05pm: SKippys' prediction: "If Abbott and Gillard are the leaders Gillard will win the next election" REALLY? Why am I not surprised by this statement from skip? 18 months to go, the polls WILL change, so may the leaders. If Abbott is still the Lib leader, Labor are in with a better chance than they are if he's not. I;m still comfortable with the statement. And it could change ever worse for Gillard and the Greens If Abbott's still leader then Labor and Greens will be in a worse position than what it is today I have confidence my fellow Australians are not as stupid as the solid gold conga line dance troupe you hang out with.

And 63% of your fellow Australians are saying they reject the carbon tax

57% of your fellow Australians are saying they want the LIBs to repeal it

You are right - they aren't that stupid!