1. If someone says something stupid and you say, "Hey, that is stupid BS because ... xyz' - is that abuse?

2. If someone says stupid things because he/she is stupid (ie says says stupid things as a matter of personal policy and outlook), and you say to him: 'you speak like that because you are stupid" - is that abuse?

I mean, are there no idiots any more? Is every point of view, no matter how demonstratively unreasoned, how evidently inconsistent, how obviously blind needs to be respected and treated as 'valid'? Has all this self-esteem mongering that starts in kindy seeped into the life of adults now? Now even adults have to be sheltered from  their stupidity for fear of their developing of self-esteem related 'issues'?
It seems to me to be a result of the feminisation of education and then social interaction and discourse. Everyone now must beat around the bush like girls. No spade is vre called a spade because direct, frank language is seen s too masculine (ie aggressive).. What's happening?

I don't just mean on this forum but in the broader context. Some people should not be sheltered from the fact that they are idiots. As long as you tell them what was stupid and why in what they said or did, this should be seen as a valuable civic, manly virtue, not as abuse, not as bitching.

I have been called all sorts of things on this forum but I have never whined to the Mods. Why is it that only idiots whine to the mods? I am interested in the psychology of the whining idiots.

Whaddaya reckon?

I reckon you're an idiot.

Soren you are prolly the stupidest person on this forum. Dont be offended though mate its for your own good we tell you this.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:27pm:

Soren you are prolly the stupidest person on this forum. Dont be offended though mate its for your own good we tell you this. SOB

Now, now don't be modest.  I can't think of a more worthy winner of the title of stupidest person than your good self.

It's a real contest as to who is the stupidest here.
There's about a dozen candidates. Just when you think someone takes the prize, along comes another contender that gives them a run for their money.

Soren I hope the responses so far demonstrate to you the pitfalls of what you are asking for.


Quote:

1. If someone says something stupid and you say, "Hey, that is stupid BS because ... xyz' - is that abuse?

So long as you direct your criticism at what they posted, rather than the person, then no (it will not get you banned).


Quote:

2. If someone says stupid things because he/she is stupid (ie says says stupid things as a matter of personal policy and outlook), and you say to him: 'you speak like that because you are stupid" - is that abuse?

Yes (it will get you banned).


Quote:

Is every point of view, no matter how demonstratively unreasoned, how evidently inconsistent, how obviously blind needs to be respected and treated as 'valid'?

Of course not. You should simply ignore the more absurd ones.


Quote:

Has all this self-esteem mongering that starts in kindy seeped into the life of adults now?

It has nothing to do with self esteem. It is about sticking to the topic and having a functioning politics forum. It is usually the people I am least impressed with intellectually who try to argue that an insult is a substitute for an argument.


Quote:

It seems to me to be a result of the feminisation of education and then social interaction and discourse.

Because women never bitch about each other? There is something kind of embarrassing about watching grown men carry on like schoolgirls (and this is not a reference to discussing politics).

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

Soren I hope the responses so far demonstrate to you the pitfalls of what you are asking for. Quote: 1. If someone says something stupid and you say, "Hey, that is stupid BS because ... xyz' - is that abuse? So long as you direct your criticism at what they posted, rather than the person, then no (it will not get you banned).

Being an adult, this is the only way I have ever identified idiots.

But I must say, when someone says stupid things consistently, unfailingly - I think that needs to be recognised and a citation along the lines of 'you fooking idiot, you are amazingly thick' is in order. I think merit must be recognised and spoken of. It is not easy for some of the people here to show up every day, hail or shine, and be fooking idiots. We must not shy away from recognising such everyday heroes. We can't pat them on the head, so we have only words to encourage them.

Am I too generous? Maybe. But I like to recognise effort. It's good for morale, in my experience.

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

Quote: Is every point of view, no matter how demonstratively unreasoned, how evidently inconsistent, how obviously blind needs to be respected and treated as 'valid'? Of course not. You should simply ignore the more absurd ones.

Oh!? Ignore?

Ignorance, absurdity, militant stupidity are spreading like topsy. Ignoring them just encourages the spread.

Tut, tut, FD. 'Good men doing nothing when absurd idiots speak...' and all that.

Okay - you obviously want a bone


Quote:

It's good for morale, in my experience.

"you fooking idiot, you are amazingly thick"

*pats soren on the head*

SOB

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:44pm:

Quote: It seems to me to be a result of the feminisation of education and then social interaction and discourse. Because women never bitch about each other?

You misunderstand me. It is because women bitch and snipe and gossip and verbalise everything to within an inch of its interest-value. A bloke will typically explain where he's coming from and tell another bloke to fook off if the other is a recalcitrantly incomprehending. A woman will hiss and nag and start a gossip campaign.

I am speaking of stereotypes, of course. Not all men and women are so categorically different. Submissive or gay men will bitch and gossip like girls, for example.

Thats hilarious. Men do exactly the same thing as women. Dramas abound., Just look @ parliament. Look @ abbott. Look @ his whining all the time to the media (and subsequently all of us) about gillard all the time. And what do you talk to with a bunch of mates with beers? Football for a lil while then you talk about other ppl that arent there. you just dont call it "gossip" when you do it.

Maybe women dont talk generally about football so much and men dont talk about dresses so much but the idea and basic premise is the same.

SOB

Men are gossipy bitches just like women. When a woman does it she's a gossip. When a man does it, he's just saying it like it is. Anyone who's worked with a bunch of men will know they love a back-biting chit chat session.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 4:45pm:

Okay - you obviously want a bone Quote: It's good for morale, in my experience. "you fooking idiot, you are amazingly thick" *pats soren on the head* SOB

There you go, bitching and then  starting a gossip campaign.
What did I tell y'all?

i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever.

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:35pm:

i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever.

Thank you. I started this for all of us.


I think idiots know they are idiots. If they were really ignorant of it they would have been run over by a truck at age 7. They couldn't possibly go through life not knowing that they are not actually understanding anything going on around them.

That's the dilemma. How can they be idiots yet navigate through daily life?

Quote:

I think idiots know they are idiots.

That's the problem. They just might not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect


Quote:

Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:     tend to overestimate their own level of skill;     fail to recognize genuine skill in others;     fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;     recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

Point is, even though I am certain that it is impossible to get through to many morons, it is possible to get through to the lesser morons whom may pay attention to the greater morons unless non-morons are calling the greater morons morons. Not being allowed to call people retarded, not just their arguments, dampens awareness that anything else these people might say in the future, however superficially plausible, needs to be taken with a heavy dose of skepticism.

Calling people stupid is a valuable service.

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:57pm:

Quote: I think idiots know they are idiots. That's the problem. They just might not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect [quote] Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:     tend to overestimate their own level of skill;     fail to recognize genuine skill in others;     fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;     recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

Point is, even though I am certain that it is impossible to get through to many morons, it is possible to get through to the lesser morons whom may pay attention to the greater morons unless non-morons are calling the greater morons morons. Not being allowed to call people retarded, not just their arguments, dampens awareness that anything else these people might say in the future, however superficially plausible, needs to be taken with a heavy dose of skepticism.

Calling people stupid is a valuable service.
[/quote]

Indeed. But if you can't get through to them and you can't send them down the mines - what is to be done??

Treating them as if they were normal is a disservice to them and a disservice to normal people. What to do??

I maintain the faith that many of the people in question are young (early 20s) and will grow out of it in a few years. Most adolescents go through an emotionally driven rebellious stage. By the time they're nearing 30 though they should be able to keep their over sentimentalism in check and begin to reason. If not, I think stupidity may be permanent.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:33pm:

I maintain the faith that many of the people in question are young (early 20s) and will grow out of it in a few years. Most adolescents go through an emotionally driven rebellious stage. By the time they're nearing 30 though they should be able to keep their over sentimentalism in check and begin to reason. If not, I think stupidity may be permanent.

nah, i used to buy into that argument too, but it's not really that true. i guess to some extent it is with the majority they never grow out of it. they may cut their hair and get jobs but the opinions still remain. most of the worst offenders here are boomers and many are pushing or close to 60.

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:47pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 7:35pm: i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever. Thank you. I started this for all of us. I think idiots know they are idiots. If they were really ignorant of it they would have been run over by a truck at age 7. They couldn't possibly go through life not knowing that they are not actually understanding anything going on around them. That's the dilemma. How can they be idiots yet navigate through daily life?

Thanks Soren for demonstrating so ably that idiots are too stupid to understand they are idiots even when it is pointed out to them.

Of course, you're too fookin' thick to understand that but trust me, others will.

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

1. If someone says something stupid and you say, "Hey, that is stupid BS because ... xyz' - is that abuse?

No. As far as I'm concerned, that is perfectly acceptable according to the forum rules. You can call ideas stupid and explain why. Everybody has their stupid moments, but sometimes people whom we regard as stupid can occasionally understand something that others can't. I'll call it  the Forrest Gump effect.  ;)  


Quote:

2. If someone says stupid things because he/she is stupid (ie says says stupid things as a matter of personal policy and outlook), and you say to him: 'you speak like that because you are stupid" - is that abuse?

Yes, but it's very mild, and (my personal stance) I wouldn't necessarily take any action on it. It's better to call ideas stupid, because (ahem) it's stupid to attack the person when you really should be attacking the idea. 


Quote:

It seems to me to be a result of the feminisation of education and then social interaction and discourse. Everyone now must beat around the bush like girls. No spade is vre called a spade because direct, frank language is seen s too masculine (ie aggressive).. What's happening?

I'm all for calling a spade a spade. Explain why an idea is stupid and you'll be streets ahead. If somebody has obviously not even bothered to research a subject properly before making an inane superficial utterance, such  lack of personal diligence should be corrected.


Quote:

I don't just mean on this forum but in the broader context. Some people should not be sheltered from the fact that they are idiots. As long as you tell them what was stupid and why in what they said or did, this should be seen as a valuable civic, manly virtue, not as abuse, not as bitching. I have been called all sorts of things on this forum but I have never whined to the Mods. Why is it that only idiots whine to the mods? I am interested in the psychology of the whining idiots.

It goes deeper than that. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but there are times when we need to be totally frank about mediocrity and other matters.

For example: young people who think they are incredibly talented musicians (or dancers) . They may waste years of their lives thinking that they are actually quite good unless somebody tells them that they are totally crap. It's doing them a great service to tell them the truth, but it doesn't hurt to be a little bit subtle about it.

I've told you many times that your ideas on climate change were stupid, but I don't think you're stupid as such. .

Gist wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:43pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 7:47pm: JC Denton wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 7:35pm: i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever. Thank you. I started this for all of us. I think idiots know they are idiots. If they were really ignorant of it they would have been run over by a truck at age 7. They couldn't possibly go through life not knowing that they are not actually understanding anything going on around them. That's the dilemma. How can they be idiots yet navigate through daily life? Thanks Soren for demonstrating so ably that idiots are too stupid to understand they are idiots even when it is pointed out to them. Of course, you're too fookin' thick to understand that but trust me, others will.

Echoing me just makes you look really fooking retarded and abject, Git. Are you after that very impression? You are getting it, believe it or not.

muso wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 9:29pm:

It goes deeper than that. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but there are times when we need to be totally frank about mediocrity and other matters. For example: young people who think they are incredibly talented musicians (or dancers) . They may waste years of their lives thinking that they are actually quite good unless somebody tells them that they are totally crap. It's doing them a great service to tell them the truth, but it doesn't hurt to be a little bit subtle about it. I've told you many times that your ideas on climate change were stupid, but I don't think you're stupid as such. .

That's the area I am interested in: the space between the boot up the arse and subtlety.
Subtlety can work with people who have attained a certain degree of worldly wisdom, width and depth of  outlook and experience.

Idiocy means precisely the lack of that width and depth.

Is a kick up the arse the best way to direct and focus attention for such people (since speaking to them as if they were wise and considerate is pointless as they are idiots -ie lacking just that level of maturity and refinement).

Have I hit on the dilemma of the age? It seems so.

It's also a fine line between stupidity and laziness. 

muso wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 10:22pm:

It's also a fine line between stupidity and laziness.

As is between laziness and leisure. There are no leisurely idiots, whereas most idiots are mentally slugguish ( lazy).

sometimes i feel a lil guilty for not liking stupid idiots. They drag everyone down but they are ppl too so I try to be patient with them. Some ppl are just stupid.

eg:

Quote:

'Homophobes' - two guys smacking and sucking each other  - what's to like??

SOB

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:47pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 7:35pm: i know i love talking sh!t - discussing why stupid people are stupid is the greatest topic of conversation possibly ever. Thank you. I started this for all of us. I think idiots know they are idiots. If they were really ignorant of it they would have been run over by a truck at age 7. They couldn't possibly go through life not knowing that they are not actually understanding anything going on around them. That's the dilemma. How can they be idiots yet navigate through daily life?

Dunning and Kruger are way past you on this one, Soren.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFFczMYJoSY&sns=em

To summarise, there are two consequences of incompetence:
1. They make poor choices
2. They are unaware they make poor choices

The skills for being competent are the same skills for evaluating competency.

JC Denton wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 8:39pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 8:33pm: I maintain the faith that many of the people in question are young (early 20s) and will grow out of it in a few years. Most adolescents go through an emotionally driven rebellious stage. By the time they're nearing 30 though they should be able to keep their over sentimentalism in check and begin to reason. If not, I think stupidity may be permanent. nah, i used to buy into that argument too, but it's not really that true. i guess to some extent it is with the majority they never grow out of it. they may cut their hair and get jobs but the opinions still remain. most of the worst offenders here are boomers and many are pushing or close to 60.

Then that's quite disturbing.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 7:28am:

sometimes i feel a lil guilty for not liking stupid idiots.

Yeah, lucky. You could be a narcissist.

We need to be "tolerant" of idiots - their intelligence is as out of ones control as the colour of their skin is. 
However, just as you'd "politely suggest' that a 200kg heifer steer clear of 2 piece bikinis, so must the dopes be politely reminded that their vapid opinions would be best kept to themselves, or at least within the confines of a circle of their fellow idiots.

... wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 11:57am:

We need to be "tolerant" of idiots - their intelligence is as out of ones control as the colour of their skin is.  However, just as you'd "politely suggest' that a 200kg heifer steer clear of 2 piece bikinis, so must the dopes be politely reminded that their vapid opinions would be best kept to themselves, or at least within the confines of a circle of their fellow idiots.

You are ignoring the ones who are so stupid, they do not realise how stupid they are.
The ability to identify people who may lack a degree of education, is very different, from recognising people who lack an ability to reason, people can be poorly educated, and very smart.

I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason, so deliberately ignore logical arguments when they see them.

Quote:

Mozzaok wrote I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason

How can this be done in its entirety?

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:41pm:

... wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 11:57am: We need to be "tolerant" of idiots - their intelligence is as out of ones control as the colour of their skin is.  However, just as you'd "politely suggest' that a 200kg heifer steer clear of 2 piece bikinis, so must the dopes be politely reminded that their vapid opinions would be best kept to themselves, or at least within the confines of a circle of their fellow idiots. You are ignoring the ones who are so stupid, they do not realise how stupid they are. The ability to identify people who may lack a degree of education, is very different, from recognising people who lack an ability to reason, people can be poorly educated, and very smart. I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason, so deliberately ignore logical arguments when they see them.

I don't think it is possible to see a logical argument and ignore it (except for rhetorical reasons). It's like no-one choosing the greater evil knowingly (ie from where they are standing).

Most stupid people are stupid because they are not perceptive enough to recognise logical arguments (ie consistent and cohesive arguments).

What I find fascinating about idiots is the surprise value: they give us a glimpse into their jumble shop minds, stacked higgledy-piggledy with curios and strange, broken brick-a-brack. But like those shops, they became tiresome and frustrating after a while.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

Quote: Mozzaok wrote I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason How can this be done in its entirety?

One example would be when parents refuse their child have a life saving medical procedure, because it involves using blood products.
They have totally assimilated a belief that is completely contrary to reason, and no amount of logical explanation, can make them divert from their delusional belief, even if the very life of their own child is at stake.
I would call that a pretty entire refusal to accept reason.

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:00pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:44pm: Quote: Mozzaok wrote I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason How can this be done in its entirety? One example would be when parents refuse their child have a life saving medical procedure, because it involves using blood products. They have totally assimilated a belief that is completely contrary to reason, and no amount of logical explanation, can make them divert from their delusional belief, even if the very life of their own child is at stake. I would call that a pretty entire refusal to accept reason.

Yeah. I have seen this happen with 7th day adventists.

SOB

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:00pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:44pm: Quote: Mozzaok wrote I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason How can this be done in its entirety? One example would be when parents refuse their child have a life saving medical procedure, because it involves using blood products. They have totally assimilated a belief that is completely contrary to reason, and no amount of logical explanation, can make them divert from their delusional belief, even if the very life of their own child is at stake. I would call that a pretty entire refusal to accept reason.

A good example.

It's just that I've heard people complain about others having preconceived beliefs when they too have them in their judgements.

people are more or less rationalising creatures rather than rational - always be skeptical of somebody who claims to possess gnostic knowledge that everybody else appears to be unaware of (especially field experts) or somebody who complains about the preconcieved ideas or others - it's usually a big red flag

people who are honest about their own biases get a lot more respect from me

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:06pm:

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 2:00pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:44pm: Quote: Mozzaok wrote I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason How can this be done in its entirety? One example would be when parents refuse their child have a life saving medical procedure, because it involves using blood products. They have totally assimilated a belief that is completely contrary to reason, and no amount of logical explanation, can make them divert from their delusional belief, even if the very life of their own child is at stake. I would call that a pretty entire refusal to accept reason. Yeah. I have seen this happen with 7th day adventists. SOB

There was a story in the news about this very subject last week. A judge in Australia over ruled the parents wishes for a girl that needed a blood transfusion.

Spot of Borg
Gold Member


Posts: 3854
61.17 Posts per day

That must be a disorder.

... wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 11:57am:

We need to be "tolerant" of idiots - their intelligence is as out of ones control as the colour of their skin is.  However, just as you'd "politely suggest' that a 200kg heifer steer clear of 2 piece bikinis, so must the dopes be politely reminded that their vapid opinions would be best kept to themselves, or at least within the confines of a circle of their fellow idiots.

The problem is that their flawed thinking is franked every time they listen to talkback.

Soren wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 6:59pm:

Spot of Borg Gold Member Posts: 3854 61.17 Posts per day That must be a disorder.

You know its an average right? Surely you know that. I haven't been here long so the number is higher . .. . Of course i post a lot too if you have a problem then dont read.

SOB

We all need a hobby.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 6:42am:

Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 6:59pm: Spot of Borg Gold Member Posts: 3854 61.17 Posts per day That must be a disorder. You know its an average right? Surely you know that. I haven't been here long so the number is higher . .. . Of course i post a lot too if you have a problem then dont read. SOB

Please tell me you don't mean the  above.

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:41pm:

I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason, so deliberately ignore logical arguments when they see them.

The human brain works on autopilot a huge proportion of the time. Think about the first time you learnt to drive or ride a bike, or windsurf.  It was almost a case of sensory overload. It isn't until you put part of it on autopilot that you can handle the coordination.

The trick is knowing when to come out of autopilot.  People whose lives are very routine and who have to cope with a lot of tasks on "autopilot" are not always used to active thinking. It doesn't mean that they are incapable of active thinking, it's just like a muscle they are not used to using. Of course, after long periods of disuse, the cognitive function of the brain falls into a state analogous to muscular "atrophy". Anybody who doesn't exercise their brain can succomb to this.

I was going to give an true example of a woman in Africa who haggled for a hat. The merchant tried to sell her two for 10 Francs CFA.  The woman then got angry that he was trying to cheat her and said that she only wanted one hat. She then agreed on 10 Francs CFA  for one hat.  I found the original story and it was much funnier, but it was in "African" French.

Anyway-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7voCJjs_Jg

I think that's more gross ignorance than stupidity, but hey....

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:41pm:

I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason, so deliberately ignore logical arguments when they see them.

Whose logic are we talking about? Who's an expert on logic? We all see things differently and even if something sounds logical to you - it may not sound logical to someone else.

It amazes me how many people with average IQ's are successful and it's mainly because they're one-eyed.

mantra wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 9:06am:

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:41pm: I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason, so deliberately ignore logical arguments when they see them. Whose logic are we talking about? Who's an expert on logic? We all see things differently and even if something sounds logical to you - it may not sound logical to someone else. It amazes me how many people with average IQ's are successful and it's mainly because they're one-eyed.

Yes. People with low IQ are often successful for the same reason. I call it the Forrest Gump effect. People can often be too smart for their own good.  It's also stupid when you make something more expensive and complex than it has to be. (Engineer's syndrome)

The classic case that I remember was  a sampling "flying fox" device  that was designed to lower a bottle and take a water sample from a pond. It was immaculately engineered. The only problem was that it was too heavy and cumbersome to use.   After two or three attempts, the lab personnel gave up on the device and used a jar on a piece of string, which they threw into the pond. The "flying fox" rusted up and was never used. 

A surf rod probably would have worked well.

mantra wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 9:06am:

mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:41pm: I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason, so deliberately ignore logical arguments when they see them. Whose logic are we talking about? Who's an expert on logic?

Aristotle.
Bertrand Russel
Frege


There is a longish list of them, you know. Start with these, especially Aristotle, if you want to know more about logic. You will see that it's not a matter of opinion or point of view.

Is it not largely a matter of Perceptions?

What may be "stupid" to one person, may not be "stupid" to others, for any number of reasons!

There can be many reasons for holding a particular view, some of those reasons may be valid to one person or to the majority of people or indeed, everyone but one other person.

That said, over time, the one person, the majority or everyone but one may be proven to be correct OR the sole opposition person may be proven correct, over time!

I came to the conclusion, some time ago that everyone, including Forrest Gump, was worth listening to.

Everyone has a right to express their views and whilst we each have the right to accept or reject those views, IF we only listen to ourself or those with similar beliefs, then we run the risk of becoming myopic, in our minds eye.

Even though I may not agree with everything he or anyone else said, they have just as much right to say it and if I failed to listen then I may also fail to pick up the smallest, the most subtle of variations, BUT THAT ONE SMALL THING MAY CHANGE EVERYTHING!

Let me leave you with something to ponder?

There are a great many things that can & do, affect the everyday health, wealth & general lives of every human now living on this planet, who lived on the planet & who will live on this planet in the future and therefore there are about 7 Billion views on almost everything.

That said, there are only a few things that affect humanity on a global basis, over time!

So what do you think they are?

Soren wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 9:28pm:

mantra wrote on Jun 12th, 2012 at 9:06am: mozzaok wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:41pm: I consider the worst of all are those who put preconceived beliefs, above reason, so deliberately ignore logical arguments when they see them. Whose logic are we talking about? Who's an expert on logic? There is a longish list of them, you know. Start with these, especially Aristotle, if you want to know more about logic. You will see that it's not a matter of opinion or point of view.

I know that logic isn't just about a matter of opinion, but not everyone has bothered to access history's great philosophers to enhance their thinking power. Some mere mortals just need to deal with their basic skills and find their own way from point A to point B.

If it's not the route you've taken, although yours might be quicker and easier, then let them be if they don't want to take your logic on board. Becoming upset with a person who is stupid is not going to encourage them to become a better person.

I am not upset if someone is stupid. Most idiots are harmless.

I do get upset by the harm caused by stupidity. letting that harm pass unremarked would be even worse than stupid.

perceptions_now wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 10:09pm:

Is it not largely a matter of Perceptions? What may be "stupid" to one person, may not be "stupid" to others, for any number of reasons! There can be many reasons for holding a particular view, some of those reasons may be valid to one person or to the majority of people or indeed, everyone but one other person. That said, over time, the one person, the majority or everyone but one may be proven to be correct OR the sole opposition person may be proven correct, over time! I came to the conclusion, some time ago that everyone, including Forrest Gump, was worth listening to. Everyone has a right to express their views and whilst we each have the right to accept or reject those views, IF we only listen to ourself or those with similar beliefs, then we run the risk of becoming myopic, in our minds eye. Even though I may not agree with everything he or anyone else said, they have just as much right to say it and if I failed to listen then I may also fail to pick up the smallest, the most subtle of variations, BUT THAT ONE SMALL THING MAY CHANGE EVERYTHING! Let me leave you with something to ponder? There are a great many things that can & do, affect the everyday health, wealth & general lives of every human now living on this planet, who lived on the planet & who will live on this planet in the future and therefore there are about 7 Billion views on almost everything. That said, there are only a few things that affect humanity on a global basis, over time! So what do you think they are?

Well, you wouldn't go into a mental hospital and listen attentively to every small thing all the inmates have to say day in day out, hanging out for all the subtle variations, would you?

Soren wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 10:37pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jun 12th, 2012 at 10:09pm: Is it not largely a matter of Perceptions? What may be "stupid" to one person, may not be "stupid" to others, for any number of reasons! There can be many reasons for holding a particular view, some of those reasons may be valid to one person or to the majority of people or indeed, everyone but one other person. That said, over time, the one person, the majority or everyone but one may be proven to be correct OR the sole opposition person may be proven correct, over time! I came to the conclusion, some time ago that everyone, including Forrest Gump, was worth listening to. Everyone has a right to express their views and whilst we each have the right to accept or reject those views, IF we only listen to ourself or those with similar beliefs, then we run the risk of becoming myopic, in our minds eye. Even though I may not agree with everything he or anyone else said, they have just as much right to say it and if I failed to listen then I may also fail to pick up the smallest, the most subtle of variations, BUT THAT ONE SMALL THING MAY CHANGE EVERYTHING! Let me leave you with something to ponder? There are a great many things that can & do, affect the everyday health, wealth & general lives of every human now living on this planet, who lived on the planet & who will live on this planet in the future and therefore there are about 7 Billion views on almost everything. That said, there are only a few things that affect humanity on a global basis, over time! So what do you think they are? Well, you wouldn't go into a mental hospital and listen attentively to every small thing all the inmates have to say day in day out, hanging out for all the subtle variations, would you?

Whyever not?

Just because someone's mad, it doesn't mean they're stupid.

Kat wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 10:51pm:

Just because someone's mad, it doesn't mean they're stupid.

Nor that they are necessarily worth listening to - perception' point was among others the supposed value of listening to everyone equally attentively.  i think that is mad. Or rather anyone who actually did that would be already mad.

The inability to discern what is worth listening to and what isn't is an early and sure sign of stupidity. Most people do exercise such discrimination, you and perceptions included. Even SOB.

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

2. If someone says stupid things because he/she is stupid (ie says says stupid things as a matter of personal policy and outlook), and you say to him: 'you speak like that because you are stupid" - is that abuse?

It's because sometimes (and very often, I think), it is "stupid" to call someone or their ideas "stupid." It is "stupid" because very often when I get into arguments with people, I don't understand their views. I know I don't understand their views, which is why I keep arguing with them. If I knew why they had their views, I wouldn't be arguing with them, because I would know how I might develop those same views. Once I understand them, it then becomes pointless arguing with them. Because I am unable to reach those same views, I have no right to call someone stupid.

If you can't reason yourself into their situation/worldview, then you wouldn't be able to reason yourself out of their situation/worldview. Because you aren't in their situation and haven't proven that you can get out of it and therefore prove wrong their worldview, you don't have authority over that person. You'd be a hypocrite to call that person stupid. You have no experience of what it means to be that person. The fact that you can't reason yourself into their worldview/situation means that you are just as stupid as that person.

The best you can do is keep arguing with that person. Calling them "stupid" doesn't change anything. It still doesn't eliminate whatever misunderstanding or disagreement you have. At best, calling a person or their ideas "stupid" is cheap and not constructive.


Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

I mean, are there no idiots any more? Is every point of view, no matter how demonstratively unreasoned, how evidently inconsistent, how obviously blind needs to be respected and treated as 'valid'?

It depends on how much influence this person has. The more powerful they are in your society, the more you have to fight them. There just isn't any guarantee that calling them "stupid" will work or that it's the best way to achieve your goals.


Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

You misunderstand me. It is because women bitch and snipe and gossip and verbalise everything to within an inch of its interest-value. A bloke will typically explain where he's coming from and tell another bloke to fook off if the other is a recalcitrantly incomprehending. A woman will hiss and nag and start a gossip campaign.

Women put an emphasis on something different to what men do. For the sake of argument I will say that women are more relational -- they put emphasis on the process of living and surviving, and therefore concern themselves with people, how they interact and get through life. Men are more technical/practical -- they put emphasis on things that aren't essential to survival, things that they enjoy doing or develop their pride. You may not care about the things that are important to women, but I'm pretty sure they think you're a "jerk" for this reason. :D


muso wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 9:29pm:

No. As far as I'm concerned, that is perfectly acceptable according to the forum rules. You can call ideas stupid and explain why. Everybody has their stupid moments, but sometimes people whom we regard as stupid can occasionally understand something that others can't. I'll call it  the Forrest Gump effect.  ;)

Not always a good idea. Ideas can be associated with people and if they put a lot of effort or time into their ideas -- even 5 mins -- they'd be offended for being told they wasted their time. You could provoke a hostile reaction.


Soren wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 10:32pm:

I do get upset by the harm caused by stupidity. letting that harm pass unremarked would be even worse than stupid.

If these people have influence, then I can understand why you want to fight them. But up to a certain point, none of this matters anyway because everybody dies. Death is inevitable. What you fight for is only as good as whatever legacy you leave behind. How aggressive you want to be really depends on how much it will benefit yourself and/or this world/society. If you see it in black and white terms and absolutely have to win every time, you've probably got OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder).

Quote:

Not always a good idea. Ideas can be associated with people and if they put a lot of effort or time into their ideas -- even 5 mins -- they'd be offended for being told they wasted their time. You could provoke a hostile reaction.

In this forum I have noticed that whenever someone goes to a lot of effort and does a nice OP post for discussion immediately there are idiots insulting them without even reading it. Its disgusting imo.

Its the way ppl are in this world today. I have seen grown ppl going "lalalalala" so they wont hear someone elses point of view. I like to listen to everyone - especially ppl different to me. However in a place like this its good to find the ppl that agree on a particular topic because there are gangs of bullies with no point of view @ all whose aim is to insult as best they can and to stifle conversation.

Imo stupid is unable to grasp that others are different. That there are other points of view than your own. usually stupid ppl are religious. Close minded and scared some other view might get in their head. Its amazing that some can even get themselves onto the internet.

No I wasnt talking about anyone in particular there. It was general.

SOB

Imo stupid is unable to grasp that others are different. That there are other points of view than your own. usually stupid ppl are religious. Close minded and scared some other view might get in their head. Its amazing that some can even get themselves onto the internet.


Lord give me strength.

angeleyes wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 8:51am:

Imo stupid is unable to grasp that others are different. That there are other points of view than your own. usually stupid ppl are religious. Close minded and scared some other view might get in their head. Its amazing that some can even get themselves onto the internet. Lord give me strength.

Despite what you may believe i am not the "lord" and cannot give you strength. Are the keys on the kb getting heavy?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 9:03am:

angeleyes wrote on Jun 13th, 2012 at 8:51am: Imo stupid is unable to grasp that others are different. That there are other points of view than your own. usually stupid ppl are religious. Close minded and scared some other view might get in their head. Its amazing that some can even get themselves onto the internet. Lord give me strength. Despite what you may believe i am not the "lord" and cannot give you strength. Are the keys on the kb getting heavy? SOB

Is it to early for my triple malt?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 6:44am:

Imo stupid is unable to grasp that others are different. That there are other points of view than your own. usually stupid ppl are religious. Close minded and scared some other view might get in their head.

;D

Sounds to me like a very strong case of inability to graps that others are different.

WHat was the word you used for that? Stupid?

Soren wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 9:22am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 13th, 2012 at 6:44am: Imo stupid is unable to grasp that others are different. That there are other points of view than your own. usually stupid ppl are religious. Close minded and scared some other view might get in their head. ;D Sounds to me like a very strong case of inability to graps that others are different. WHat was the word you used for that? Stupid?

that didnt work. do you want to try again? Did the shoe fit or something?

SOB

Soren wrote on Jun 12^th, 2012 at 10:32pm:

I am not upset if someone is stupid. Most idiots are harmless. I do get upset by the harm caused by stupidity. letting that harm pass unremarked would be even worse than stupid.

Soren,

Do you equate stupidity with lack of intelligence? I think the two are related to a point, but are not the same. Many highly intelligent people often do really stupid things (especially in government), as do many uninteliigent people .

The way I imagine it is like an inverted bell curve, albeit somewhat assymmetrical. If the Y axis is stupidity and the X axis is intelligence.  Stupidity reaches a minimum around an IQ equivalent of 120. 

Mnemonic wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 1:16am:

It's because sometimes (and very often, I think), it is "stupid" to call someone or their ideas "stupid." It is "stupid" .....

That was probably one of the least stupid posts on this thread. I can see your clinical background coming through and I know exactly where you're coming from.  We can all learn something from you.

The other aspect is that what we see as stupidity can often be situational. For example, If two people are in love, they can do the most stupid things imaginable.

I associate the term "stupidity" more with acts than people, and in that context, "thoughless" is a close synonym.

Stupidity


Quote:

My wife died

Quote:

As Churchill said in a similar context, if I were your wife I'd do the same.

SOB

muso wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 10:07am:

The way I imagine it is like an inverted bell curve, albeit somewhat assymmetrical. If the Y axis is stupidity and the X axis is intelligence.  Stupidity reaches a minimum around an IQ equivalent of 120.

;D ;D ;D

Soren wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 7:47pm:

I think idiots know they are idiots.

I'm not so sure about that.  I recall reading, some years ago, an article about how people recognise competency in themselves and others.  I know it's not the same thing, but there are some similarities.  Basically, the article said that the tools that a person uses to determine that someone (be it themselves or someone else) is competent are the same tools that you use to be competent in the first place.  Therefore people who are incompetent are unable to recognise incompetence, and believe themselves to be competent.  Perhaps the same principles apply to idiots.

As an afterthought, maqqa seems to think that he himself is intelligent.....

Training and OH&S have a lot to answer for.

Idiots should be allowed to make mistakes and die, that’s what idiots do.

Training and OH&S have allowed many idiots to breed.

Not good.

Soren wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 10:29am:

;D ;D ;D

So you didn't answer my question. I take it that you equate stupidity with lack of intelligence.

We have competence, thoughtlessness, situational stupidity, government, lovers, the mad and the maniacal - we have everything expect stupidity.

Nowadays you call someone stupid and you get the scientists, the nurses, the social workers, the tolerant and the concerned and all the rest of them coming along and claimg their own particular segment of 'stupid' after their own particular narrow interests or understanding.

If I started a thread on 'spade', there would similarly a great variety of knotted brows holding forth about how not every spade is a spade.

FriYAY wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 10:34am:

Training and OH&S have a lot to answer for. Idiots should be allowed to make mistakes and die, that’s what idiots do. Training and OH&S have allowed many idiots to breed. Not good.

In my experience, it's not usually "idiots" who have accidents at work. Some of the best operators can have a lapse, in some cases due to complacency.  They are usually ashamed of it too. 

muso wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 10:34am:

Soren wrote on Jun 13th, 2012 at 10:29am: ;D ;D ;D So you didn't answer my question. I take it that you equate stupidity with lack of intelligence.

I don't. I equate stupidity with stupidity.

muso wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 10:38am:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 13th, 2012 at 10:34am: Training and OH&S have a lot to answer for. Idiots should be allowed to make mistakes and die, that’s what idiots do. Training and OH&S have allowed many idiots to breed. Not good. In my experience, it's not usually "idiots" who have accidents at work. Some of the best operators can have a lapse, in some cases due to complacency.  They are usually ashamed of it too.

Ahhhhh FFS it was a joke  ::)

Soren wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 10:38am:

We have competence, thoughtlessness, situational stupidity, government, lovers, the mad and the maniacal - we have everything expect stupidity. Nowadays you call someone stupid and you get the scientists, the nurses, the social workers, the tolerant and the concerned and all the rest of them coming along and claimg their own particular segment of 'stupid' after their own particular narrow interests or understanding. If I started a thread on 'spade', there would similarly a great variety of knotted brows holding forth about how not every spade is a spade.

There is no doubt that some people are just plain stupid. At the same time, there is no doubt that some highly intelliegent people can do incredibly stupid things.

Quote:

Rowena's particularly thick. She's one of our top earners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n677ZbzC24

Stupid is as stupid does.