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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Philosophy >> "I know that there is no god,...." http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1340112711 Message started by Yadda on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 11:31pm

Title: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 11:31pm

Adamant wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

Yadda

I know you to be a serious individual and devout in your beliefs, perhaps "you" the individual could share your beliefs with me/us on the forum.

I must state that I know that there is no god,

on the reverse side of the coin I wish no evil to anyone. That stated I look forward to your reply.

With respect adamant, you cannot know, that something does not exist, or that there is no God.

IMO, such a statement is not logical.

e.g.
If i stand before you, and i show you my closed fist, do you know what is hidden within it ?

I may claim that i have a 10 cent coin within my closed fist.

The point is that you cannot know if there is a 10 cent within my closed fist, unless i open my hand.

Then again, maybe there is no coin in my hand.

And again, you can never know that there is no coin in my closed hand, if i do not open my hand.

The point i am trying to make is that it is impossible to prove a negative, .....i.e. we cannot logically prove the NON-existence of something that does not exist, if it does not exist.

!!!

And while-soever something is withheld from our perception, THAT circumstance, is not proof, that an artefact or 'thing', does not exist.

And, the same logical conclusion must apply to the existence of a spiritual realm, or, to the existence of a 'God', or 'the' God. ;)

i.e.
Because, and while-soever, you are not aware of a 'God', THAT circumstance, in itself does not prove, that a 'God' does not exist.

Can you accept that logic ?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am

I know that your specific god does not exist.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:18am

If I am afraid of heigts but you are not, does that mean that the fear of hights doesn't therefore exist?

God is an experience of a relationship. Like love. If you don't experience love, does that mean that there is no such thing as love?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21am

Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

The fact you have to come up with silly arguments like that just proves that you are defending a seriously silly idea.

None of that makes a god more real then Cinderella.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by FriYAY on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Law of probability.
Just the idea of a god is already virtually impossible as it is one of an infinite number of possibility's as to the creation of our universe and/or life as we know it.
An extremely specific god bound by a strict story/history/factors/rules/characteristics is so far past possible it is safe to call it impossible.
Given that there is no evidence there is no probability passed the point that the story of Cinderella has.
If there was evidence then it would slightly increase probability, but there is none.

At this stage we have no way or means to limit the number of infinite possibility's either and until we can have some start as to knowing the origins of our universe it is pointless and ignorant to belief in anything let alone something so crazily specific.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Frances on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 5:01pm

So are you saying if you can't see something that it therefore does not exist?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 7:40pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

PP,

No, you don't.

PP,

Argument;
Even if my God did not exist, you could not >> prove << that my God did not exist.

Why so ???

That conclusion is based on simple logic.

You are a human being, with normal human perception.

You are a human being, you are NOT an omniscient being.

You do not know, you cannot know, if God exists, because you do not even know [in minute detail] what is contained within our own universe.

So, how could you know that, for instance, that the universe does not contain God ???

Dictionary;
omniscient = = knowing everything.

+++

Common human 'proof' is built upon, has a 'basis' in, our 'perception'.

What you are impso facto claiming, is that because you have not perceived the existence of God, therefore it is very likely, indeed almost certain, that God does not exist.

That is a very presumptuous, and arrogant thought [i.e. an imagined reality], imo.

+++

Consider;

somewhere on OzPol........

Quote:

Prior to Columbus discovering the Americas [well, discovering central America anyway] the American continents did not exist.
....well, not within the mental consciousness of Europeans.

n.b.
Effectively, THE AMERICAS DID NOT 'EXIST', in the consciousness of Europeans, prior to Columbus discovery of the Americas.

And i am sure that when Columbus returned to Spain, that initially many of his interlocutors were unable to 'conceive' of his 'new world', beyond the horizon.

And indeed, when they first heard the 'tale', many Europeans refused to believe, that Columbus had discovered a 'new world'.

+++

p.s.

The God of Israel does exist.

God, is very, very, real.

How can i know that God is real ?

I have 'perceived' him, ........even if you have not. ;D

So, is Yadda mad ?

If my perception, and my reality is different from yours, if my life experiences are different from yours, does that mean that my 'reality' is invalid, and, that your 'reality' is valid ???

Is that what you are saying ?

Again, imo, that is a very presumptuous, and arrogant thought [i.e. an imagined reality].

But hey, if you want to hold onto the reality which you have created, that is OK.

Tip;

If you want to 'perceive' God, stop accepting presumptions [as truth], and instead start accepting truth [whenever you stumble across it].

And, if you want to actively search for God, a good place to start, is in your Bible.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
- Winston Churchill

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
George Orwell

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 8:20pm

Frances wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 5:01pm:

So are you saying if you can't see something that it therefore does not exist?

No.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 8:22pm

Just looking at that the length and obscurity of that post just proves you are talking crap about crap.

I can perceive a French Chicken horse man but that doesn't make it so ding bat.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 8:57pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

PP,

What you expressed [above] is your reality.

What you expressed [above] is your, ........arrogance.

Nothing strange.

Arrogance is common in the human animal. :P

Dictionary;
arrogant = = having an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by adamant on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:16pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 11:31pm:

Adamant wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

Thank you Yadda for your answer. I am at the mo very busy but have tagged this and will respond as soon as time permits.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Bertram on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

i don't believe you have thought about any of this much, at all.

there is no 'infinite ways of creating the universe. this is just a figure of speech, like the 1001 nights is a figure of speech for a lot. I don't think you could list more than a handful plausible ways (and i don't mean crazy made-up stuff that has no resemblance of what we know and see).

god is extremely nonspecific. this is because god is not bound by the specificities of material objects or by language - our own very specific limitations. this counts against god in a big way if you want to limit things to the scientific way of seeing - a fairly recent invention, itself growing out of much older and more complex and much less 'scientistic' precedents.

cindarella is a parable and like all parables, it is true. a parable speaks to experience that recognises its truth.

we can very easily limit the possibilities of creation to what is plausible (small number) and conceivable (larger but still small number). as you say yourself, the origins are crucial because they set in motion thing like time, space, causality, extension and all the rst of the mental apparatus that enables us to consciously perceive the world.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:47pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21am:

Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

The fact you have to come up with silly arguments like that just proves that you are defending a seriously silly idea.

None of that makes a god more real then Cinderella.

You could not give a concise reason for why my analogy is silly even if your life depended on it.

Cindarella is real. Odysseus is real, Achilles, Oedipus, Antigone, Snow WHite. Everyone knows who they are. In a very real sense, Cindarella, Odysseus etc are better known (ie more real) to more people than you or me.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:51pm

Bertram wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21pm:

god is extremely nonspecific. this is because god is not bound by the specificities of material objects or by language - our own very specific limitations.

this counts against god in a big way if you want to limit things to the scientific way of seeing - a fairly recent invention, itself growing out of much older and more complex and much less 'scientistic' precedents.

Bertram,
There is a lot of truth in what you said, above.

God is a spiritual entity.

And i am an entity encased in flesh, and being encased in this flesh, it is very difficult, for my carnal mind, to perceive, and to even think, in a spiritual way.

I have difficulties, when i seek God, because i too, am caught up in this flesh, in this world.

One way of 'getting clear' of this flesh, is to meditate, and to enter a quiet time.

I also find that reading the bible can be [for me], very meditative.

I wrote.......

Quote:

Reading the bible, i believe, has 'changed my mind', in every sense of that expression!
And imo, reading the Bible, is a form of spiritual invocation.
IMO, the words and thoughts expressed within the Bible, express [to me] the mind of our God.
Reading those words and thoughts, exposes me to the spirit, which i want to be influenced by.

God, is a spirit being, we are flesh, and we are caught up in the cares of this world.

Being in that circumstance, how can we comprehend God ???

We can't.

We are just grasping at an idea, an ideal, of what he is.

I have been in his presence [out of my body], and i [still] do NOT know, what God is.

But, i want to live in his presence, when i leave here!!!

I can 'say' that God, is a spirit, .......but what does that mean ???

I do not know what that statement really means.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

My advice, to everyone who will listen is;

If you can find it within you, GIVE UP THIS WORLD, and seek God.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 11:36pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:51pm:

Bertram wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 10:21pm:

"Everything you have seen, every flower, every bird, every rock will pass away and turn to dust, but that you have seen them will not pass away."

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by FriYAY on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:26am

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Yeah, but it is not proof is it.

No one can prove it either way.

I liked the way the fella explained his belief on QandA the other night.

He believes in the big bang - but he also can not "prove" there was not some entity involved before that.

I'll stay agnostic.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:32am

FriYAY wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:26am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Why does an entity take center stage when it is just one in an infinite number of possibility's?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by FriYAY on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 11:41am

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:32am:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:26am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Why does an entity take center stage when it is just one in an infinite number of possibility's?

I didn't make it center stage. It's center stage of this thread.

So you agree an entity is a possibility! Interesting. ;)

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 11:45am

FriYAY wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 11:41am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:32am:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:26am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Why does an entity take center stage when it is just one in an infinite number of possibility's?

I didn't make it center stage. It's center stage of this thread.

So you agree an entity is a possibility! Interesting. ;)

Haha I have never disagreed with that.
Doesn't make it even remotley probable or sane to believe in.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by FriYAY on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 11:47am

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 11:45am:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 11:41am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:32am:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 10:26am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

FriYAY wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 3:18pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

But how do you prove it?

Why does an entity take center stage when it is just one in an infinite number of possibility's?

I didn't make it center stage. It's center stage of this thread.

So you agree an entity is a possibility! Interesting. ;)

Haha I have never disagreed with that.
Doesn't make it even remotley probable or sane to believe in.

I agree, but i can not prove it one way or the other.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 23^rd, 2012 at 12:48am

For Soren,

"Know what it is to be a child...
To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour."
William Blake, Auguries of Innocence

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jun 23^rd, 2012 at 10:54pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 11:31pm:

With respect adamant, you cannot know, that something does not exist, or that there is no God.

IMO, such a statement is not logical.

I agree with the logic, however, what you can't tell is what somebody else "knows".

Many theists, including yourself, can say "I know that (my) God exists"

The basis of this is revelatory, not logic based. By the same token, another person can say " I know that (a particular) God does not exist.", not on the basis of any logical argument about probability, but on a gnostic (small g) basis. It's a personal knowledge that transcends any logical arguments.

Nobody (including yourself) can question the knowledge held by another person because nobody can look inside another person's head. PP's logic is flawed, but the OP said nothing about logical arguments.

I can say "I know that my favourite colour is blue" and no amount of logicl arguments can counter that personal knowledge. The same goes for the gnostic theist and the gnostic atheist positions. Neither can be countered by logic. Pascal's wager collapses in a heap when it comes to personal knowledge.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 11:27am

muso wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2012 at 10:54pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 11:31pm:

With respect adamant, you cannot know, that something does not exist, or that there is no God.

IMO, such a statement is not logical.

I agree with the logic, however, what you can't tell is what somebody else "knows".

Many theists, including yourself, can say "I know that (my) God exists"

The basis of this is revelatory, not logic based. By the same token, another person can say " I know that (a particular) God does not exist.", not on the basis of any logical argument about probability, but on a gnostic (small g) basis. It's a personal knowledge that transcends any logical arguments.

Nobody (including yourself) can question the knowledge held by another person because nobody can look inside another person's head. PP's logic is flawed, but the OP said nothing about logical arguments.

I can say "I know that my favourite colour is blue" and no amount of logicl arguments can counter that personal knowledge. The same goes for the gnostic theist and the gnostic atheist positions. Neither can be countered by logic. Pascal's wager collapses in a heap when it comes to personal knowledge.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

muso,

I think that i covered this...

Quote:

If my perception, and my reality is different from yours, if my life experiences are different from yours, does that mean that my 'reality' is invalid, and, that your 'reality' is valid ???

Is that what you are saying ?

Again, imo, that is a very presumptuous, and arrogant thought [i.e. an imagined reality].

muso,

I have no argument with what you are saying. [except for your last line. what you said there just doesn't make any sense, to me, at all. ;) ]

And i reread my own comments [in this thread] the other day, and i saw a flaw in one of my own statements, a flaw in how i expressed myself.

I am looking for it again now.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 12:26pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 11:27am:

And i reread my own comments [in this thread] the other day, and i saw a flaw in one of my own statements, a flaw in how i expressed myself.

I am looking for it again now.

Yadda wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 7:40pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2012 at 9:31am:

I know that your specific god does not exist.

PP,

.......You do not know, you cannot know, ~~if God exists~~, because you do not even know [in minute detail] what is contained within our own universe.

So, how could you know that, for instance, that the universe does not contain God ???

I think i should rather have expressed myself this way....

"You do not know, you cannot know, if God does not exist,..."

Clearly, if something does exist within a [vast and] unsearchable environment/space, we can still have knowledge, of that 'thing',
1/ if we come across the 'thing', or,
2/ if in some other way, that the 'thing' is revealed to our perception.

But we can NEVER know [and therefore we can never prove] that something does NOT exist within a [vast and] unsearchable environment/space, ....because [within a [vast and] unsearchable environment/space] we ourselves do not have the capacity to search and to know if that 'thing' exists within the bounds of that environment/space.

Dictionary;
know = = be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information. have knowledge or information concerning. be absolutely sure of something.

As human beings, we can only ever have the capacity to know of those 'things' which are within the 'reach' of our own [limited] perception [...or, knowledge of things which are within the 'perception' of those machines which we are able to conceive of, and then construct].

If we are able to conceive** of the [possible] existence of something, we may be able to construct a machine which can demonstrate that something does in fact exist.

** i.e.
If we are able to imagine.

And with that, i come back to Blake...

"Know what it is to be a child...
To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour."
William Blake, Auguries of Innocence

Consider;
Being able to imagine, does not necessarily mean, that what we 'imagine' is wrong [incorrect], or even unreal.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Hamlet, William Shakespeare

IMO, people who live exclusively in this world, i.e. people who know the bounds of their 'reality' only from their physical/temporal perceptions, live in a very small world.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 12:42pm

IMO, i believe that my God [who is also teh God of Israel] is very real, and i believe that he does exist, outside of time and space as we know it.

i.e.
I do not believe that the God of creation, is 'contained' within the universe, as we know it.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 7:48pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

OK, I'll play devil's advocate (very appropriate you say, ok). I know there is no god because it came to me in a dream. I discovered a way of astral travelling using my mind, where I could see the entire universe. We all have this capability. So the information that there is no god came to me from astral travelling.

Now you can't prove that Astral travel does not exist because you can't look inside my head, and because you are not omniscient. I know that it's true, and using that method, I also know that no gods exist.

So, a claim of revelatory knowledge can be used to demonstrate any religious position you want. I could be lying through my teeth, but you could never know.

"Astral travel!!!!!???" I hear you say.

Suffice it to say Horatio,that your philosophy has never dream't of that particular one.

- and Yadda - don't take offense. I mean none. Rest, rest, perturbed spirit!

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jun 29^th, 2012 at 10:26pm

muso wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 7:48pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

'I know there is no god because it came to me in a dream. I discovered a way of astral travelling using my mind, where I could see the entire universe. We all have this capability. So the information that there is no god came to me from astral travelling.

....So, a claim of revelatory knowledge can be used to demonstrate any religious position you want.'

muso,

Nice try. ;D

I'll say this for you again, once more, with feeling....

Believe whatever you want to believe.

We all do.

I do.

And, I'll say this for you again....

What we believe, determines how we will act [ how we will choose] in this life.

muso,

Do those two statements make any sense to you ?

'Common-sense' ?

muso,

I'm just an idiot.

You shouldn't listen to me.

The universe which we live in has no laws, and even if it does, they don't apply to human beings.

Right ?

The truth is that nothing that i say, will have much effect upon anyone.

We are all upon our own path, a path which is determined by our own beliefs and our own choices.i'...Yadda - don't take offense.'

"You make yourself and others suffer just as much when you take offence, as when you give offence."

H.B.T.H.C. Ken Keyes

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 3:06pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2012 at 10:26pm:

I'll say this for you again, once more, with feeling....

Believe whatever you want to believe.

We all do.

I do.

And, I'll say this for you again....

What we believe, determines how we will act [ how we will choose] in this life.

I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem when you tell me that somebody cannot possibly know something to be true or false based on this premise

Quote:

With respect adamant, you cannot know, that something does not exist, or that there is no God.

Yes you can. You can know something, I can know something, and so can Adamant.

The argument that you can't know something, anything, is invalid to the point of being preposterous. The same argument could be used for things that we accept to be true.

1+1 = 2. We can't know this for sure because you don't know all the mathematics in the universe. You have to be God to know that 1+1= 2.

I think, therefore I am. We can't know that because it could all be an illusion. (or translated into Christian - it is all an illusion.

There is however a subset of illusions, sometimes called persistent illusions. For the purpose of ensuring that we don't drift away into a nebulous cloud of solipsistic ramblings (the favourite position of Fundmental Christians and Muslims). such persistent illusions are commonly referred to as reality.

- and if you were starving, you'd probably eat the real carrot rather that n the illusory one. Illusory carrots have no nutritional value.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 3:17pm

x = 1, y = 1
x = y
x^2= xy
x^2 - xy = 0
x(x - y) = 0

x = y
x^2 = y^2
x^2 - y^2 = 0
(x - y)(x + y) = 0

x(x - y) = (x + y)(x - y)
Dividing both sides by (x-y), we get,
x = x + y
<=> 1 = 1 + 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 1:09am

muso wrote on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2012 at 10:26pm:

I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem when you tell me that somebody cannot possibly know something to be true or false based on this premise

Quote:

With respect adamant, you cannot know, that something does not exist, or that there is no God.

Not so, muso.

muso,

Consider Bertrand Russell's teapot 'argument', the possibility of a [theoretical] 'celestial' teapot being in an orbit around the sun.

TWO POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES [possibilities] APPLY [if we were utilising only 20th century technology];

Circumstance #1,
If there is a physical teapot, in an orbit of the sun, can it be possible to discover [i.e. to 'know'] that this teapot exists, and that it is orbiting the sun?

Circumstance #2,
If there is no teapot in an orbit of the sun, is it possible for mankind [observing only from the earth] to know that there is [in fact] no teapot in an orbit around the sun?

A.
#1, Yes. [Because it is possible to have knowledge of a 'positive' existence.]

A.
#2, No.

Q.
Why 'No', for #2 ?

A.
Simply, that because of the vastness [in linear space] of the orbit around the sun, mankind [if utilising only 20th century technology] could never know for certain that a theorised [none existent] 'celestial' teapot [in an orbit around the sun], did not exist.

muso,

Therefore it is perfectly logical and valid for me to say that we [mankind] cannot know some things.
That some knowledge [i.e. to have a 'positive' knowledge of a theorised none existent entity or object] is not possible - UNLESS YOU/WE ARE AN OMNISCIENT ENTITY.

Because we [humans] are not omniscient, there are some 'things' and there is some knowledge, which will always be, beyond our capacity to know, or comprehend.

Whereas, it is possible to have a knowledge of a 'positive'. ;)

Job 19:25
....I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 1:45am

Yadda wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 1:09am:

Whereas, it is possible to have a knowledge of a 'positive'. ;)

This physical world is apparent to all of us.

No argument.

Dictionary;
apparent = =
1 readily perceived or understood; obvious.
2 seeming real or true.

muso,

If there is no spirit realm, then i'm in a lot of trouble ['psychologically' speaking] !!

But if there is a spirit realm, then it is people like yourself, who are in a lot of trouble [and NOT 'psychologically' speaking] !!

Choices, always have consequences.

That is the lesson.

And we [all] are the 'children', who are meant to be come to that knowledge.

Psalms 9:15
The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
20 Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 2:02am

muso wrote on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 3:17pm:

muso,

I don't like your math [algebra] ! ;D

1 = x OR y

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 2:28am

muso wrote on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 3:17pm:

x(x - y) = (x + y)(x - y)

= =

x * 0 = 2 * 0 = = TRUE

;)

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 8:12pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 2:02am:

muso,

I don't like your math [algebra] ! ;D

1 = x OR y

It was a joke. I was proving that 1+1= 1 :)

The problem lies in the fact that x-1 =0, and you can't really divide by zero and make sense.

Pedantic on/ You don't need to be omniscient to know that there is no teapot orbiting Pluto. You could get by without knowing many things. You'd just have to have an intimate knowledge of the space around Pluto. If you didn't know what was orbiting Mars or Jupiter, you could still know.

Quote:

muso,

If there is no spirit realm, then i'm in a lot of trouble ['psychologically' speaking] !!

But if there is a spirit realm, then it is people like yourself, who are in a lot of trouble [and NOT 'psychologically' speaking] !!

OK, but that only applies for the unique type of "Spirit realm" that you understand from your religion.

To me, life is an amazing thing. It isn't supernatural, but I'd be interested in how you would differentiate between life and "the spirit world" as you put it. Nobody quite understands how self awareness occurs. I'm not implying that there is anything mystical or supernatural about life, but it is very special natural phenomenon that nobody quite understands, but you and I would probably agree that we'd like to understand it better.

Your path to understanding life is different from mine, but as a fellow traveller in the universe, I look on your attempts with respect - not with any kind of mockery.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 4^th, 2012 at 7:25pm

muso wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 8:12pm:

Yadda wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 2:02am:

muso,

I don't like your math [algebra] ! ;D

1 = x OR y

It was a joke. I was proving that 1+1= 1 :)

The problem lies in the fact that x-1 =0, and you can't really divide by zero and make sense.

'...you can't really divide by zero'..... period.

.....is the point.

+++

muso wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 8:12pm:

Pedantic on/

You don't need to be omniscient to know that there is no teapot orbiting Pluto.

You could get by without knowing many things. You'd just have to have an intimate knowledge of the space around Pluto. If you didn't know what was orbiting Mars or Jupiter, you could still know.

Oh, and you know this, because ???

Lets face it muso, you do NOT know that there is no teapot orbiting Pluto [.....or, the sun].

And that was the whole point of my argument.

......that mankind continues to make lots of assumptions, but to assume something, however likely that circumstance may appear to be, does not in itself make such an assumption true.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 4^th, 2012 at 7:53pm

muso wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 8:12pm:

Quote:

OK, but that only applies for the unique type of "Spirit realm" that you understand from your religion.

To me, life is an amazing thing. It isn't supernatural, but...

I'd be interested in how you would differentiate between life and "the spirit world" as you put it.

Nobody quite understands how self awareness occurs. I'm not implying that there is anything mystical or supernatural about life, but it is very special natural phenomenon that nobody quite understands, but you and I would probably agree that we'd like to understand it better.

Your path to understanding life is different from mine, but as a fellow traveller in the universe, I look on your attempts with respect - not with any kind of mockery.

muso,

IMO, there is no 'differentiation' involved.

God is the source of all life, as we know it.

My belief is that all knowledge, and all life [as we know them], comes from God himself.

Even that knowledge which atheists 'acquire' [i.e. their 'knowledge' that God does not exist], is a gift imparted directly from God. [...And even when we choose to embrace erroneous knowledge, God allows us to choose and embrace it. And i believe that that power 'to error' [within us] comes from God himself, .....for his own purpose.]

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And i believe that the life that atheists [and indeed all creatures] enjoy, comes directly from the life that God is.

But i believe that the life which we experience [that which we call 'life'] is a mere 'shadow' of what true LIFE! really is.

What we know as 'life', is not LIFE!

And God then proceeds with us [he 'nurtures' us, our progressive life and our progressive knowledge], depending upon on how we use that knowledge and that life which he imparts to us.

That is what i believe.....

All life comes from God.

All knowledge [that men 'hold'] comes from God.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 6:38pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 4^th, 2012 at 7:53pm:

That is what I thought you believed. Thank you.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 6:51pm

Yadda wrote on Jul 4^th, 2012 at 7:25pm:

[quote author=5A424458370 link=1340112711/34#34 date=1341310346]

Oh, and you know this, because ???

Lets face it muso, you do NOT know that there is no teapot orbiting Pluto [.....or, the sun].

And that was the whole point of my argument.

I don't know it, but I can reasonably assume that it doesn't exist.

My point is that "omniscient" by definition means knowing everything. On the othr hand, Intimate knowledge about the few million cubic kilometers of space around Pluto is an insignificant fraction of the knowledge of the entiire universe. In fact, it is perfectly feasible to determine if there is a teapot orbiting around Pluto using today's technology. You'd have to send a few space probes and it would take several years. but that knowledge could easily be acquired by men.

Put it this way, if you can determine if there is a planet orbiting around a nearby star without leaving the solar system, that is a much greater feat than any orbiting teapot determinations.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 10:24pm

Pluto-schmuto. God is in human experience, not in outer space. God is experienced subjectively.
Pluto isn't.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 6^th, 2012 at 5:42pm

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 10:24pm:

Pluto-schmuto. God is in human experience, not in outer space. God is experienced subjectively.
Pluto isn't.

The Deist God is not human experience. However, what Yadda says about there being no discernable difference between life and the "spirit world" rings true. My own Religious Naturalist position takes the view that what we're really talking about is the manifestation of life.

I agree that "God" is in human experience, if we define "God" as life or nature.

Some aspects of Yadda's Judeo Christian God aligns with the immanent concept of God being within. (God= life). The consciousness and conscienta of the human condition is also a pretty mysterious and beautiful thing.

Life is still a fairly mysterious process. It's difficult to explain in totally objective terms.

The Abrahamic God amalgamates the "God the creator" and the "God of nature" although there are still echoes of polytheism/ monolatry in that the human nature/ nature aspect formerly associated with the Goddess Astarte / Ashera eventually became associated with witchcraft.

The God of Nature had a comeback with the advent of Thomas Payne and the Deists, and they were totally despised by Christians at the time, who regarded them as devli worshippers.

Matthew 4.8

Quote:

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour.
4.9
“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
4.10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’“

What does that imply about the realm of Satan (nature/ the Earth) ?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 12:44am

muso wrote on Jul 6^th, 2012 at 5:42pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 10:24pm:

Pluto-schmuto. God is in human experience, not in outer space. God is experienced subjectively.
Pluto isn't.

muso,

So your proposition is, that the manifestation of life [in the universe, i.e. on this earth! ;) ] and our [own] perception of ['existential'] life, is the human 'experience' of God ?

Well yes, life is indeed a mystery.

muso,

Light a candle sometime, then stare at the flame for a few moments, and tell me, what is the 'essence' of the flame [itself] ?

My point?

There are many things which can bring us to a sense of wonder, if we can [somehow] learn to view them from an altogether different and new 'direction'.

muso,

I can understand how, in that way [of understanding "God" as life] you would, and how you could, come to rationalise away an otherwise invisible 'God'.

muso,

Because we cannot see a teapot orbiting the sun, [however likely the circumstance, that there is no teapot...] it does not conclude that there is no teapot.

And likewise, because we humans cannot see and perceive a divine being [a being who transcends our human comprehension], it does not conclude that there is no divine being.

That there is no divine being, is just [merely] a 'natural' human assumption. ;)

Regards what Soren said.....

'God is experienced subjectively.'

Of course he is.

'...because we humans cannot see and perceive a divine being [a being who transcends our human comprehension]...'

But Soren, [if God does in fact exist!] that does not exclude the possibility, that God can be experienced 'objectively'.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 1:02am

muso wrote on Jul 5^th, 2012 at 6:38pm:

Yadda wrote on Jul 4^th, 2012 at 7:53pm:

That is what I thought you believed. Thank you.

+++

muso wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2012 at 8:12pm:

Quote:

Let me try again ;) [i wrote what follows offline]....

The sense that i get, is that it would be, and that it is presumptuous of me, to try to explain, or to put into words, my understanding of the nature of God. [...and here i go!]
What i have seen of God is that his form is that of a man, .....but was that 'form' [which i 'perceived'] being made known to me [so as to 'reveal' [to me] a sense of his presence], as a concession to my limited comprehension ? [see; Genesis 18:1-8 ...where God presents himself to Abraham, in the form of a man, with two companions.]
That indeed seems likely.
My sense is that my own mental comprehension [of the spiritual] is so limited, as not to have a capacity to understand even the nature of God's 'form'.
My sense is that the 'nature', the essence of what God is [i.e. the true 'form' of the living God!], could be described as, VIRTUE and LIGHT and PURITY.
But i know [with certainty] that any words [from me] would always convey a very imperfect description, of what 'God' is.
IMO, getting a better sense of what God is, and getting a better sense of the nature of God, >>is possible<< from reading and meditating upon, 1/ the book of Psalms, and 2/ by meditating upon the description of the 'person' of [rather than the man] Jesus, contained in the Gospels.
The *man* that was Jesus was not God, but then, yes he was, ...God!
Am i confused ?
The essence of the person described by and known as, the man Jesus, was God [to my understanding].
Jesus essence and his nature [the nature of the man we know as 'Jesus'] was God [to my understanding].

AND A CONCLUDING ADMISSION;
What do i truly know of God ?
Almost nothing.

What does [personally] intrigue me about 'God' is this;

Job 7:17
What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

Luke 12:7
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Something about God, that i know, for certain [i think ;) ]...
It is God's intention to [one day] reveal himself, to the understanding [comprehension] of all men.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 1:28am

muso wrote on Jul 6^th, 2012 at 5:42pm:

The Abrahamic God amalgamates the "God the creator" and the "God of nature" although there are still echoes of polytheism/ monolatry in that the human nature/ nature aspect formerly associated with the Goddess Astarte / Ashera eventually became associated with witchcraft.

The God of Nature had a comeback with the advent of Thomas Payne and the Deists, and they were totally despised by Christians at the time, who regarded them as devli worshippers.

Matthew 4.8

Quote:

What does that imply about the realm of Satan (nature/ the Earth) ?

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

muso,

You do not believe in a spirit being, known as 'God'.

And so, why would you believe in another spirit being, known as SATAN?

SATAN is real, and his 'angels' are real.

My 'understanding' of this issue is that the world [this world] is given to SATAN as a form 'recruiting' ground, until judgement day. [i don't really know why]

My 'understanding' also, is that God has the power to protect men [and women] from the power of SATAN's spiritual influence.

That spiritual protection can be gained [by us] very, very, easily, .....and likewise, that spiritual protection can also be lost very easily !!

Deep down within us, we all know, and have a true sense, of where our present path is leading us to. ;)

Don't we ???

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 2:48am

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 1:02am:

Something about God, that i know, for certain [i think ;) ]...
It is God's intention to [one day] reveal himself, to the understanding [comprehension] of all men.

Something else about God, that i know, for certain...

......is that God has the ability and that he has the power to do that, ....the power and ability to reveal himself, to our understanding and comprehension.

How ?

Well, if it is true that God designed, and made us, then it is also likely that God has the power to change our [mental, and spiritual?] 'capacities'.

Quote:

"What if 'this life' is a fixed game?

i.e.
What if we can't 'win',
...on purpose!"

Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1303676733/207#207

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 8:41am

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 1:28am:

muso,

You do not believe in a spirit being, known as 'God'.

And so, why would you believe in another spirit being, known as SATAN?

SATAN is real, and his 'angels' are real.

My 'understanding' of this issue is that the world [this world] is given to SATAN as a form 'recruiting' ground, until judgement day. [i don't really know why]

My 'understanding' also, is that God has the power to protect men [and women] from the power of SATAN's spiritual influence.

That spiritual protection can be gained [by us] very, very, easily, .....and likewise, that spiritual protection can also be lost very easily !!

Deep down within us, we all know, and have a true sense, of where our present path is leading us to. ;)

Don't we ???

On your last point, I'm not sure that all of us do, and the path itself is sometimes more important than the final destination. I had a slight chuckle at your candle analogy. Who's been teaching you Buddhism?

Referring to your question(highlighted), of course I don't, but I am interested in the struggle that man has had, and continues to have to understand the universe and the nature of existence. I'm also interested in how you rationalise your beliefs.

The point about Satan/ the Natural World was in the frame of understanding the development of Christianity, which has its roots in Polytheism, which developed into monolatry (recognition of other gods but worship of just one), which in turn developed into the Christianity we know today.

Religious thought interests me, and religions like Christianity and even Islam have evolved. The Christianity of the Nicea of 325 AD is totally diferent from the Christianity of today, and some of forms of Christianity that existed up to 325 were barely recognisable as Christianity.

I don't judge, and I don't mock, and I find simplistic atheistic cliches to be somewhat irritating. You're the one who brought up Bertrand Russell's teapot, not me. ;D

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 11:54am

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 12:44am:

Regards what Soren said.....

'God is experienced subjectively.'

Of course he is.

'...because we humans cannot see and perceive a divine being [a being who transcends our human comprehension]...'

But Soren, [if God does in fact exist!] that does not exclude the possibility, that God can be experienced 'objectively'.

Not sure what you mean. To my mind an experience is by definition subjective.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 6:23pm

The Deist experience is necessarily objective, in that the position is arrived at through rational thought, and the non-interventionist nature of the Deist God precludes any subjective element.

Having said that, many Deists have Christian "baggage".

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 6:37pm

This sounds to me like a 'god's point of view' kind of objectivity. Treating 'rational thought' as objective is possible, I think, only if rational thought is treated (unseflconciously) as being sub specie aeternitatis, that is, above any particular metaphysics.

For Darwinians of the worst kind, however, thought is merely a biological function of matter - ie bound to a particular species and not at all objective.

Objectifying human thought works only is it is treated as above the species, eternal, the reason of the universe itself - the divine element.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 6:49pm

Darwin was a Christian, but you mean Atheists, I take it? "Darwinian" is an unfortunate term usually used by the Intelligent Design brigade.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 11:11pm

muso wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 8:41am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 1:28am:

Quote:

On your last point, I'm not sure that all of us do, and the path itself is sometimes more important than the final destination.

Yes, the path we take would be important.
But we need to choose a path that will eventually deliver us to our desired destination.
Otherwise we are just as likely to end up 'lost in the world', going nowhere !
Which sorta defeats our chances of coming to God's proposed destination for us.
Of course, many of us seem to be very happy to stop 'where we are', and to just 'go native' !
But that would be our choice.
Right ? ;)

Quote:

I had a slight chuckle at your candle analogy. Who's been teaching you Buddhism?

I like the peace [of mind], and some of the logical thought stuff in Buddhism.
But to me, Buddhism seems like a train, sitting at a station, but the train doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
Which is another dead end path, imo.

Who has been teaching me Buddhism?
Buddhism, is that what i have been learning !? ;D

Quote:

Referring to your question(highlighted), of course I don't, but I am interested in the struggle that man has had, and continues to have to understand the universe and the nature of existence. I'm also interested in how you rationalise your beliefs.

I am too. ;)
Hence the meditative bent.

Quote:

The point about Satan/ the Natural World was in the frame of understanding the development of Christianity, which has its roots in Polytheism, which developed into monolatry (recognition of other gods but worship of just one), which in turn developed into the Christianity we know today.

Yes i got that.
You are rationalising our Christian belief in religion.

Quote:

Religious thought interests me, and religions like Christianity and even Islam have evolved. The Christianity of the Nicea of 325 AD is totally diferent from the Christianity of today, and some of forms of Christianity that existed up to 325 were barely recognisable as Christianity.

The first Christians were mostly Jews.

'Christianity and Islam have evolved'

I don't particularly like what 'official', organised Christianity, in all of its forms, has morphed into, today.

ISLAM is a spiritual vehicle, and imo, modern, organised Christianity has effectively hooked up its wagon to ISLAM.
IMO, modern, organised Christianity, and ISLAM, will have the same destination.
All aboard!!!

Jesus words;
".....for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

People who wish to get aboard another, and a different, spiritual vehicle, should study and read their bible!

The bible is God's word.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Quote:

I don't judge, and I don't mock, and I find simplistic atheistic cliches to be somewhat irritating. You're the one who brought up Bertrand Russell's teapot, not me. ;D

Bertrand Russell's teapot was a point of logic, to 'beat' [assault] you with, muso. ;D

Hey, that teapot could be up there!!! ;D

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 11:46pm

Soren wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 11:54am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 12:44am:

Not sure what you mean. To my mind an experience is by definition subjective.

Yes.

Our [psyche's] interpretation of any experience always is.

Coz, what is real ?

And what part of our 'experience' is not real ?

What part of the information which our eyes and brain process is 'changed' to conform with our 'learned' worldview ?

IMO, everything which we experience, in every waking moment, is merely presented to our consciousness as an 'interpretation'.

So what is real ?

The pain, the joy, the terror, the anguish, the sensual pleasure ?

Our desires ?

Do our creature desires reflect a form of reality ?

All i know, is that what we [humans] accept as reality, seems [to me] to be a contrived illusion.

I prefer to refer to this 'reality' as, a construct.

Because that is what i believe that it is.

[p.s. I am not on any medication, and i do not use 'recreational' drugs.]

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Jul 9^th, 2012 at 10:05am

muso wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 6:49pm:

Darwin was a Christian, but you mean Atheists, I take it? "Darwinian" is an unfortunate term usually used by the Intelligent Design brigade.

What I meant was a mechanical theory of how life has come about and how it exists.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Jul 9^th, 2012 at 6:36pm

Soren wrote on Jul 9^th, 2012 at 10:05am:

muso wrote on Jul 8^th, 2012 at 6:49pm:

Darwin was a Christian, but you mean Atheists, I take it? "Darwinian" is an unfortunate term usually used by the Intelligent Design brigade.

What I meant was a mechanical theory of how life has come about and how it exists.

Evolution is obvious. Abiogenesis is not, or at least we're a long way from understanding how the first single celled organisms came about.

Regardless of how it all originated, we have to deal with the condition of life (consciousness/ conscienta) as it is now. Some people claim that thoughts and emotions are merely chemical reactions. Of course at the very basic level, they are chemical reactions, but it's a bit like saying that a digital recording of Aprile Millo singing Leonora's aria from Fidelio is just a sequence of 1's and 0's. Well it is, but it's missing the point somewhere.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by namnugenot on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:53am

Your all not real.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Aug 2^nd, 2012 at 10:07pm

namnugenot wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:53am:

Your all not real.

We [muso and i. well, i !! ] get that a lot.

And it is true, namnugenot.

coz, only you, namnugenot, know what is correct, and only you, namnugenot, have a firm grasp on reality.

namnugenot,

You are not related, by blood, to SPOT are you ???

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 3^rd, 2012 at 5:16am

Yadda wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2012 at 10:07pm:

namnugenot wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:53am:

Your all not real.

It is obvious that you do not understand humour @ all in any form unless it is you that is trying to quip.

SOB

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Aug 3^rd, 2012 at 5:38pm

namnugenot wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:53am:

Your all not real.

I agree. I'm just a figment of my imagination. Cognito, ergo imaginarius sum.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by NorthOfNorth on Sep 23^rd, 2012 at 6:16pm

There's one "god" (if you like) from whom we're never free, nor in whom we're free to disbelieve... The "god" of doubt.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Oct 6^th, 2012 at 6:16pm

muso wrote on Jul 9^th, 2012 at 6:36pm:

Regardless of how it all originated, we have to deal with the condition of life (consciousness/ conscienta) as it is now.

Thanks for that. We have now safely arrived at the 'tortoise's legs go all the way down' stage. Didn't take long (mercifully).

How it all originated is a pretty crucial issue, considering the topic, don't you think?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Oct 6^th, 2012 at 6:16pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2012 at 6:16pm:

There's one "god" (if you like) from whom we're never free, nor in whom we're free to disbelieve... The "god" of doubt.

I very much doubt that.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Gomtuu on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 3:36am

Soren wrote on Oct 6^th, 2012 at 6:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2012 at 6:16pm:

There's one "god" (if you like) from whom we're never free, nor in whom we're free to disbelieve... The "god" of doubt.

I very much doubt that.

Yet another try for smart one line stupid nothing

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Spot of Borg on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 4:22am

Yadda wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2012 at 10:07pm:

namnugenot wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:53am:

Your all not real.

Why would you say that? I never said you werent real. Unfortunately ppl like you are all too real.

SOB

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 1:02pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 4:22am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2012 at 10:07pm:

namnugenot wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:53am:

Your all not real.

Why would you say that? I never said you werent real.

Unfortunately ppl like you are all too real.

SOB

Of course i am real.

Just like everyone else, I think, therefore i am.

You shouldn't doubt it. :D

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Spot of Borg on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 1:10pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 1:02pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 7^th, 2012 at 4:22am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2012 at 10:07pm:

namnugenot wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:53am:

Your all not real.

Why would you say that? I never said you werent real.

Unfortunately ppl like you are all too real.

SOB

Of course i am real.

Just like everyone else, I think, therefore i am.

You shouldn't doubt it. :D

Then why did you imply that i thought you werent real?

SOB

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by mutation on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 12:54am

The proof or not of gods existence is in equal parts pointless, impossible and irrelevant!
The issue is not if god exists or not but if you intend to follow his instructions (assuming you know what they might be). Personally i have no intention of following him no matter the status of his existence.
The people who need or want him to exist dont need or want proof!
The people who dont want or need him to exist dont see any proof!

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Spot of Borg on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 4:21am

mutation wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 12:54am:

All the gods in the books are nasty pieces of work that kill entire populations in fits of rage. They are like lil children who build something out of legos then dont like what they built and smash it to pieces.

SOB

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by God on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 8:23pm

mutation wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 12:54am:

What about those who need or want God not to exist?

I can prove that I exist, by the way.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 8:44pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 4:21am:

Not all, Only a tiny proportion in fact. Jnanam, Bhaga, Pururavas and Urvashi are examples of peaceful gods. Then there's Gita, the goddess of song. Do you want me to go on?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Spot of Borg on Oct 12^th, 2012 at 5:56am

muso wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 4:21am:

Not all, Only a tiny proportion in fact. Jnanam, Bhaga, Pururavas and Urvashi are examples of peaceful gods. Then there's Gita, the goddess of song. Do you want me to go on?

Vishnu is gitas boss though. Same as "god"is jesus boss and allah is mohammeds boss.

SOB

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by muso on Oct 13^th, 2012 at 10:53pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 12^th, 2012 at 5:56am:

muso wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 4:21am:

Not all, Only a tiny proportion in fact. Jnanam, Bhaga, Pururavas and Urvashi are examples of peaceful gods. Then there's Gita, the goddess of song. Do you want me to go on?

Vishnu is gitas boss though. Same as "god"is jesus boss and allah is mohammeds boss.

SOB

Only according to one Hindu tradition. Where does Vishnu kill entire populations? Now Shiva I will agree, but not Vishnu.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Spot of Borg on Oct 14^th, 2012 at 4:48am

muso wrote on Oct 13^th, 2012 at 10:53pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 12^th, 2012 at 5:56am:

muso wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 8:44pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 4:21am:

Not all, Only a tiny proportion in fact. Jnanam, Bhaga, Pururavas and Urvashi are examples of peaceful gods. Then there's Gita, the goddess of song. Do you want me to go on?

Vishnu is gitas boss though. Same as "god"is jesus boss and allah is mohammeds boss.

SOB

Only according to one Hindu tradition. Where does Vishnu kill entire populations? Now Shiva I will agree, but not Vishnu.

Okay well you may have got me there since I dont remember and couldn't be bothered trying to look it up. I thought he did kill somebody with a long name though for worshipping the wrong god. He used his avatars to kill. the opposite of the abrahamic religions really.

SOB

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by mutation on Oct 15^th, 2012 at 10:45pm

Muso (ex member) wrote on Oct 11^th, 2012 at 8:23pm:

What about those who need or want God not to exist?

I can prove that I exist, by the way.

Wouldnt know never met one!

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by perceptions_now on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 8:50pm

Everything that has ever and will ever happen, is pre-determined, is part of the great plan and therefore choice and freedom of thought, are just an illusion.

There is no god, chaos is the only universal rule and our choices will determine the future of humanity.

Which is more difficult to believe?
Which is more unpalatable?

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Soren on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 10:58pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 14^th, 2012 at 4:48am:

I dont remember and couldn't be bothered trying to look it up.
SOB

Who could POSSIBLY disagree with THAT???

If you disagree with this, you are lashing out. Never mind that the guy can't even remember what his point is - you disagree, you are lashing out. He has no idea but you have to humour him and treat him like he wasn't insane, otherwise he will report ya.

Whatever you do, don't call him a clueless, ignorant cretin, even if you think he is a clueless ignorant cretin. You can think it but you can't say it.

You have all been warned.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Spot of Borg on Nov 26^th, 2012 at 4:45am

Soren wrote on Nov 25^th, 2012 at 10:58pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Oct 14^th, 2012 at 4:48am:

I dont remember and couldn't be bothered trying to look it up.
SOB

Quote mining i see. I was pretty much agreeing with muso in the entire context.

SOB

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by NorthOfNorth on Dec 23^rd, 2012 at 11:08am

There was a young man named Rod,
Who didn’t believe in god.
What he believed in for sure,
Was old Murphy’s law,
And he’d make Murphy give him the nod.

So what he decided he’d try,
Was to fool Murphy with a big lie.
He’d hope for an X,
Believing he’d hex,
Murphy into sending a Y.

But an X is that which he got,
Seems a fool old Murphy is not.
He lives in our head,
And knows what we dread,
Cos he’s us, as are gods and the lot.

Title: Re: "I know that there is no god,...."
Post by Yadda on Dec 23^rd, 2012 at 12:20pm

Too deep for me.

I can only comprehend very shallow, and superficial ideas. :P