Just tackling a very interesting financial article about all things that run the world none being more important than oil.

Now what happens when we run out of oil. The USA uses 18 million barrels of oil a day.

Has anyone stopped and thought just how reliant we are on it?

Sure we got coal to burn in power stations for electricity but how do you get the coal out of the ground if we got no petrol to power the heavy machinery?

How do you get it to the power stations if we have no petrol?

Basically life as we know it is finished when oil runs out if another source of power is not found, why aren't they spending sums of money trying to get another power source? Why aren't all cars being made to run on LPG?

There will be no trucks delivering food to the shops, no power at home to cook, no farmers able to farm stock or produce.

How in 150 years have gone from living by candle light to the life we now know and then back to where we were?? Wonder what life was like before cars and electricity??? how far away are we from that life again??

Wonder how long we've got till the oil runs out??

We used to spend 1 barrel of oil to recover 100 barrels, now we spend 1 barrel to recover 3 barrels.

All the easy oil is gone and we are now trying to extract the really hard to get at oil??

Nuclear is no good as we only have about a 30 year supply of uranium in the ground.

Maybe we should be hanging onto all of our LPG LNG supplies for future power??? rather than sell it to China for a bowl of rice?

After all it will be much more valuable in 20 years than it is now?????

<<We used to spend 1 barrel of oil to recover 100 barrels, now we spend 1 barrel to recover 3 barrels.>>
............................................................................

The dinosaurs get the last laugh.

Peak oil is in the past.

These last 100 years will be remembered in history as the wasteful years. The years of greed, when man took what he wanted without any thought of the future of mankind, let alone the next generation.

So, what does happen when we use one barrel of oil to get one barrel of oil?

I suppose nation's will start to invest in the exploration of other options, like hydrogen, although we have left our run rather late in my opinion.

woof woof wrote on Jul 29^th, 2012 at 2:28pm:

Just tackling a very interesting financial article about all things that run the world none being more important than oil. Now what happens when we run out of oil. The USA uses 18 million barrels of oil a day. Has anyone stopped and thought just how reliant we are on it? Sure we got coal to burn in power stations for electricity but how do you get the coal out of the ground if we got no petrol to power the heavy machinery? How do you get it to the power stations if we have no petrol? Basically life as we know it is finished when oil runs out if another source of power is not found, why aren't they spending sums of money trying to get another power source? Why aren't all cars being made to run on LPG? There will be no trucks delivering food to the shops, no power at home to cook, no farmers able to farm stock or produce. How in 150 years have gone from living by candle light to the life we now know and then back to where we were?? Wonder what life was like before cars and electricity??? how far away are we from that life again?? Wonder how long we've got till the oil runs out?? We used to spend 1 barrel of oil to recover 100 barrels, now we spend 1 barrel to recover 3 barrels. All the easy oil is gone and we are now trying to extract the really hard to get at oil?? Nuclear is no good as we only have about a 30 year supply of uranium in the ground. Maybe we should be hanging onto all of our LPG LNG supplies for future power??? rather than sell it to China for a bowl of rice? After all it will be much more valuable in 20 years than it is now?????

There are plenty of alternative vehicle fuels that we could change to very quickly if required. With relatively minor modifications, most existing petrol vehicles can run on hydrogen. The downsides are the cost and energy requirements. Most existing diesel vehicles can run on an assortment of renewable biofuels, the downside being growing enough crops to supply the fuel.

The gradual move to alternative fuels has already begun, with electrics, hybrids, hydrogen-fuel-cell etc cars now on the market. There's plenty of people making their own biodiesel from old frying oil, and biodiesel is sold retail in several locations now. It will take a while, but renewables/alternatives will continue to grow.

BTW, there's no point changing to LPG as a oil-saving measure, because it's a product of oil (Liquid Petroleum Gas). NG will also run out eventually, and much sooner if we suddenly used it as a major transport fuel.

For all the above reasons, my main concern about the eventual disappearance of oil is not vehicle fuel, but all the by-products that come from oil. Essentially every synthetic polymer is made from oil by-products.

Now, try to imagine life without plastics.... nylon, polyester, PVC, perspex, polycarbonate, polystyrene.....

Scientists are working on bioplastics, but replicating the specific properties of what we have now will be a challenge, plus bioplastics come from growing plants so their implementation will put further pressure on food crops.

EFFICIENCY BREEDS SUCCESS!!

NO GOOD CAN COME FROM WASTE..............  :D

I'LL FIND A SOURCE OF SOME DESCRPTION THAT PUTS IT BETTER....,(WATCH THIS SPACE!)

I'm thinking the 33 strategies of war book by robert greene but i can't seem to get the bit on PERFECT ECONOMY off of the internet... they keep telling me to buy it(but i 've already got it!!!! )

Anyway, the gist was: no good can come from wasting resources!!

There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil.

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 9:51am:

There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil.

except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow.

current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield.

the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias.

Quote:

except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy

Like your religion?

Quote:

Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow.

Except of course how would you know when the monoploised system does not allow for them to be developed properly?
Stop lying to people.

Quote:

current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield.

Thanks to nutjobs like you I doubt we will last another 80-100 years but I guess that's ok cause your going to heaven right?
Why does long term not come up in your calculations? Why would you use something detrimental in the long term when you could use something good in the long term.
You are thick.

Quote:

the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias.

Except people haven't had to sell it unlike big oil spending billions of dollars to sell the idea that everything else is 'a complete fallacy'.
Which for obedient dogs like you has obviously worked exceptionally well.

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:00pm:

Quote: except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy Like your religion? [quote]Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow.

Except of course how would you know when the monoploised system does not allow for them to be developed properly?
Stop lying to people.

Quote:

current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield.

Thanks to nutjobs like you I doubt we will last another 80-100 years but I guess that's ok cause your going to heaven right?
Why does long term not come up in your calculations? Why would you use something detrimental in the long term when you could use something good in the long term.
You are thick.

Quote:

the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias.

Except people haven't had to sell it unlike big oil spending billions of dollars to sell the idea that everything else is 'a complete fallacy'.
Which for obedient dogs like you has obviously worked exceptionally well. [/quote]

ah the politicalpuppet returns with no more brains in this current iteration than the previous.

you just dont get it - probably because you are stupid. there is plenty of oil and everytime we get close to a supposed shortage there is suddenly yet another massive reserve discovered.

we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983. Y2K was supposed to end the world in 2000 and now climate change is supposed to increase sea level by 6 meters by 2005.

and you wonder why I dont swallow the tripe like you do!!!

We could have infinite supplies and it still does not make it viable.

Quote:

and you wonder why I dont swallow the tripe like you do!!!

Pffffftttttttttttttttttt

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 11:31am:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias.

like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D

EV's fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;)

The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;)

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D they fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;) The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;)

You can't stop at picnic areas and tourist attractions on a plane nail...

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 11:31am:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias.

This is one of those rare occasions, when I will agree with Longweakend, at least on one point.

In fact, there are NOT plenty of alternatives to Crude Oil, at least not on the magnitude required or the Price needed.

However, I must disagree with Longweakend, in that  the newer "alternatives", such as Tar Sands & Shale Oil, can NOT be Produced at the Net Energy output required.

They are in fact, Energy Sinks, which means they use more Energy than they Produce or they are very close to it, which means that the spare Energy capacity we once had is long gone, as are the existing levels of Productivity gains that arose from a mixture of Innovation & cheap Energy.

The EROEI (Energy Return On Energy Invested) was around 100/1 at one point, it is now down under 5/1 on many of the "New alternatives"! One exception being Hyrdo, but that isn't going to power transport & it's not going to Produce all the synthetic Products that currently are derived from the Hydrocarbons found in Crude Oil.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_Returned_on_Energy_Invested_-_USA.svg/450px-EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_Returned_on_Energy_Invested_-_USA.svg.png

EROI (for US)      Fuel
1.3      Biodiesel
3.0      Bitumen tar sands
80.0      Coal
1.3      Ethanol corn
5.0      Ethanol sugarcane
100.0      Hydro
35.0      Oil imports 1990
18.0      Oil imports 2005
12.0      Oil imports 2007
8.0      Oil discoveries
20.0      Oil production
10.0      Natural gas 2005
10.0      Nuclear
30.0      Oil and gas 1970
14.5      Oil and gas 2005
6.8      Photovoltaic
5.0      Shale oil
1.6      Solar collector
1.9      Solar flat plate
18.0      Wind
35.0      World oil production
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

In terms of the current expectations being that there are about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves, that is also well off the correct timeline, BUT the problems start well before these Energy lifelines actually completely run out.

In fact, we have already started to see the effects, from the perceptions that the end of Oil & Coal is now in sight and that has been under way for a decade of more.

Crude Oil was under US$10 per Barrel around the year 2000, it went as high as US$147 in 2008, before falling back to US$30, but it is now retracing back to around US$100, depending on the source and when these shortages become apparent Prices will rise thru the roof.

Coal has also started a relentless push upwards, which is caused by shortages & lessening Energy output, from the lower grades of Coal that must now be used, as the higher grade Coal Production has Peaked!   

Finally, there is the question of lead times, to change over Global Technologies and in many cases in would take decades to change our Energy technologies, decades we just don't have!

Quote:

Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job.

what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway?

Canberra there are a lot of electric cars.


Quote:

we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983.

We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think?

SOB

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:31pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:28pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D they fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;) The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;) You can't stop at picnic areas and tourist attractions on a plane nail...

and you can't see the scenary like you can out of a plane whilst drinking a coffee ;)

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D EV's fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;) The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;)

SO WHY DONT YOU BUY AN EV THEN?

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:31pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:28pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D they fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;) The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;) You can't stop at picnic areas and tourist attractions on a plane nail...

and in a country the size of ours there are plenty of places further than 100km away that you cant get to by plane. Ive driven to Melbourne many times. Ive only ever flown to Perth but Ive driven to Brisbane and stopped off at various places along the way. If I had an EV it would have taken a month to get there.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:34pm:

Quote: Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway?

they can't do wheelies down at the local safeway car park which is why madweekend bought his car for ;)

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:31pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:28pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D they fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;) The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;) You can't stop at picnic areas and tourist attractions on a plane nail... and you can't see the scenary like you can out of a plane whilst drinking a coffee ;)

youve obviously not been in a plane very often. one out of 3 get a 6inch window to see a probably cloud covered landscape and the view from 35,000 feet is impressive for about 10 minutes. after that you dont see anything you havent already seen before.

You've never flown before, have you?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:34pm:

Quote: Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway? Canberra there are a lot of electric cars. [quote]we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983.

We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think?

SOB[/quote]

no there arent. damn, you are a stupid poster. you just make stuff up or recall some dream you were having and thought it was real.

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:37pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:31pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:28pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D they fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;) The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;) You can't stop at picnic areas and tourist attractions on a plane nail... and in a country the size of ours there are plenty of places further than 100km away that you cant get to by plane. Ive driven to Melbourne many times. Ive only ever flown to Perth but Ive driven to Brisbane and stopped off at various places along the way. If I had an EV it would have taken a month to get there.

the GM Volt will do what you want and it has to come down in price to compete with Toyota hybrids ;)

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:40pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:34pm: Quote: Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway? Canberra there are a lot of electric cars. [quote]we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983. We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think? SOB

no there arent. damn, you are a stupid poster. you just make stuff up or recall some dream you were having and thought it was real.[/quote]

worried about that prospect are you ;) LOL

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:40pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:34pm: Quote: Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway? Canberra there are a lot of electric cars. [quote]we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983. We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think? SOB

no there arent. damn, you are a stupid poster. you just make stuff up or recall some dream you were having and thought it was real.[/quote]

http://www.actewagl.com.au/Environment/Environmental-initiatives/Green-energy-for-vehicles.aspx

http://canberraev.org/

http://www.betterplace.com.au/media/media-releases/better-place-wires-up-the-novotel-canberra-for-electric-cars.html

http://www.theaustralian.com.au%2Fbusiness%2Fcanberra-powers-ahead-with-electric-car-network%2Fstory-e6frg8zx-1226102325857&ei=YfYVUM_9IaSeiAf_7oEY&usg=AFQjCNEIPU_-y2kZmFc4HkTPJkB3VXHWCg

now answer my question kvnt

We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think?

SOB

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:32pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. This is one of those rare occasions, when I will agree with Longweakend, at least on one point. In fact, there are NOT plenty of alternatives to Crude Oil, at least not on the magnitude required or the Price needed. However, I must disagree with Longweakend, in that  the newer "alternatives", such as Tar Sands & Shale Oil, can NOT be Produced at the Net Energy output required. They are in fact, Energy Sinks, which means they use more Energy than they Produce or they are very close to it, which means that the spare Energy capacity we once had is long gone, as are the existing levels of Productivity gains that arose from a mixture of Innovation & cheap Energy. The EROEI (Energy Return On Energy Invested) was around 100/1 at one point, it is now down under 5/1 on many of the "New alternatives"! One exception being Hyrdo, but that isn't going to power transport & it's not going to Produce all the synthetic Products that currently are derived from the Hydrocarbons found in Crude Oil. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_Returned_on_Energy_Invested_-_USA.svg/450px-EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_Returned_on_Energy_Invested_-_USA.svg.png EROI (for US)      Fuel 1.3      Biodiesel 3.0      Bitumen tar sands 80.0      Coal 1.3      Ethanol corn 5.0      Ethanol sugarcane 100.0      Hydro 35.0      Oil imports 1990 18.0      Oil imports 2005 12.0      Oil imports 2007 8.0      Oil discoveries 20.0      Oil production 10.0      Natural gas 2005 10.0      Nuclear 30.0      Oil and gas 1970 14.5      Oil and gas 2005 6.8      Photovoltaic 5.0      Shale oil 1.6      Solar collector 1.9      Solar flat plate 18.0      Wind 35.0      World oil production http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested In terms of the current expectations being that there are about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves, that is also well off the correct timeline, BUT the problems start well before these Energy lifelines actually completely run out. In fact, we have already started to see the effects, from the perceptions that the end of Oil & Coal is now in sight and that has been under way for a decade of more. Crude Oil was under US$10 per Barrel around the year 2000, it went as high as US$147 in 2008, before falling back to US$30, but it is now retracing back to around US$100, depending on the source and when these shortages become apparent Prices will rise thru the roof. Coal has also started a relentless push upwards, which is caused by shortages & lessening Energy output, from the lower grades of Coal that must now be used, as the higher grade Coal Production has Peaked!    Finally, there is the question of lead times, to change over Global Technologies and in many cases in would take decades to change our Energy technologies, decades we just don't have!

So who can explain to me, how the following alternative fuel sources are going to replace Oil & Coal?

EROI (for US)      Fuel
1.3      Biodiesel
1.3      Ethanol corn
1.6   Solar collector
1.9   Solar flat plate
3.0      Bitumen tar sands
5.0      Ethanol sugarcane
5.0   Shale oil
6.8   Photovoltaic

We have enough oil to fill the Earth three times over... 8-) 8-)

All the alternatives to oil are either extremely expensive to get, or take away from our food supply which is already at danger point.

I wonder if it really will be a case of going back in time to before the industrial revolution. We'd all be a lot healthier that's for sure, maybe that's what we need to save mankind from death by consumption.

I hate these lawnmowers.

http://www.luxuryhousingtrends.com/reel-lawn-mower.jpg

Quote:

All the alternatives to oil are either extremely expensive to get, or take away from our food supply which is already at danger point.

That's because they are alternatives. Once there is serious demand for them people will put in the investments required to develop cheaper ways.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:40pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:34pm: Quote: Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway? Canberra there are a lot of electric cars. [quote]we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983. We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think? SOB no there arent. damn, you are a stupid poster. you just make stuff up or recall some dream you were having and thought it was real.

http://www.actewagl.com.au/Environment/Environmental-initiatives/Green-energy-for-vehicles.aspx

http://canberraev.org/

http://www.betterplace.com.au/media/media-releases/better-place-wires-up-the-novotel-canberra-for-electric-cars.html

http://www.theaustralian.com.au%2Fbusiness%2Fcanberra-powers-ahead-with-electric-car-network%2Fstory-e6frg8zx-1226102325857&ei=YfYVUM_9IaSeiAf_7oEY&usg=AFQjCNEIPU_-y2kZmFc4HkTPJkB3VXHWCg

now answer my question kvnt

We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think?

SOB[/quote]

by that time madweekend will be in heaven and they don't need cars there :D LOL

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 2:49pm:

Quote: All the alternatives to oil are either extremely expensive to get, or take away from our food supply which is already at danger point. That's because they are alternatives. Once there is serious demand for them people will put in the investments required to develop cheaper ways.

yes neccessity is the mother of all inventions ;)

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:39pm:

youve obviously not been in a plane very often. one out of 3 get a 6inch window to see a probably cloud covered landscape and the view from 35,000 feet is impressive for about 10 minutes. after that you dont see anything you havent already seen before. You've never flown before, have you?

so lets kill off EV's simply because you can't guarantee a good window seat in a plane :D LOL

what a wanker !!

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 2:31pm:

All the alternatives to oil are either extremely expensive to get, or take away from our food supply which is already at danger point. I wonder if it really will be a case of going back in time to before the industrial revolution. We'd all be a lot healthier that's for sure, maybe that's what we need to save mankind from death by consumption. I hate these lawnmowers. http://www.luxuryhousingtrends.com/reel-lawn-mower.jpg

I would have said -
All the alternatives to oil are either extremely expensive to get & take away from our food supply which is already at danger point.

PS - We don't have lawn, so lawn mowers are not a (my) problem.
Not having lawn, also means our water consumption is low, which is fortunate because we ain't getting any rain, in Perth!

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 2:55pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 2:49pm: Quote: All the alternatives to oil are either extremely expensive to get, or take away from our food supply which is already at danger point. That's because they are alternatives. Once there is serious demand for them people will put in the investments required to develop cheaper ways. yes neccessity is the mother of all inventions ;)

True, BUT you can't invent what isn't there, unless you think magic is actually real?

Prevailing wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 1:53pm:

We have enough oil to fill the Earth three times over... 8-) 8-)

Groan!!!!!

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 1:28pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:32pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. This is one of those rare occasions, when I will agree with Longweakend, at least on one point. In fact, there are NOT plenty of alternatives to Crude Oil, at least not on the magnitude required or the Price needed. However, I must disagree with Longweakend, in that  the newer "alternatives", such as Tar Sands & Shale Oil, can NOT be Produced at the Net Energy output required. They are in fact, Energy Sinks, which means they use more Energy than they Produce or they are very close to it, which means that the spare Energy capacity we once had is long gone, as are the existing levels of Productivity gains that arose from a mixture of Innovation & cheap Energy. The EROEI (Energy Return On Energy Invested) was around 100/1 at one point, it is now down under 5/1 on many of the "New alternatives"! One exception being Hyrdo, but that isn't going to power transport & it's not going to Produce all the synthetic Products that currently are derived from the Hydrocarbons found in Crude Oil. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_Returned_on_Energy_Invested_-_USA.svg/450px-EROI_-_Ratio_of_Energy_Returned_on_Energy_Invested_-_USA.svg.png EROI (for US)      Fuel 1.3      Biodiesel 3.0      Bitumen tar sands 80.0      Coal 1.3      Ethanol corn 5.0      Ethanol sugarcane 100.0      Hydro 35.0      Oil imports 1990 18.0      Oil imports 2005 12.0      Oil imports 2007 8.0      Oil discoveries 20.0      Oil production 10.0      Natural gas 2005 10.0      Nuclear 30.0      Oil and gas 1970 14.5      Oil and gas 2005 6.8      Photovoltaic 5.0      Shale oil 1.6      Solar collector 1.9      Solar flat plate 18.0      Wind 35.0      World oil production http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested In terms of the current expectations being that there are about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves, that is also well off the correct timeline, BUT the problems start well before these Energy lifelines actually completely run out. In fact, we have already started to see the effects, from the perceptions that the end of Oil & Coal is now in sight and that has been under way for a decade of more. Crude Oil was under US$10 per Barrel around the year 2000, it went as high as US$147 in 2008, before falling back to US$30, but it is now retracing back to around US$100, depending on the source and when these shortages become apparent Prices will rise thru the roof. Coal has also started a relentless push upwards, which is caused by shortages & lessening Energy output, from the lower grades of Coal that must now be used, as the higher grade Coal Production has Peaked!    Finally, there is the question of lead times, to change over Global Technologies and in many cases in would take decades to change our Energy technologies, decades we just don't have! So who can explain to me, how the following alternative fuel sources are going to replace Oil & Coal? EROI (for US)      Fuel 1.3      Biodiesel 1.3      Ethanol corn 1.6   Solar collector 1.9   Solar flat plate 3.0      Bitumen tar sands 5.0      Ethanol sugarcane 5.0   Shale oil 6.8   Photovoltaic

I didn't think so!

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:46pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:37pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:31pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:28pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 11:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 9:51am: There are plenty of alternatives already, and that is without trying very hard to replace oil. except of course that is a lie - a complete fallacy. Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. and anyhow, they are still mainly recharged using coal-powered stations anyhow. current expectations are that there is about 80-100 years left of oil in current reserves. and recent technology has made tar sands and shale oil commercially viable. USA and Canda currently has reserves of those oils of 14 times that which saudi arabia has - the worlds biggest oilfield. the oil shortage has been oversold and over-rated - like most hysterias. like the second coming of christ which is one of your hysterias :D they fulfill the needs of 80% of commutes and plugin hybrids like the GM Volt will take care of the whingers like yourself. Just need to get them to people at resonable prices. They will come down in price just as flat screen TV's have ;) The days of driving a V8 guzzler from one end of a country to another are over. Nobody except a loser would do that instead of getting on a plane ;) You can't stop at picnic areas and tourist attractions on a plane nail... and in a country the size of ours there are plenty of places further than 100km away that you cant get to by plane. Ive driven to Melbourne many times. Ive only ever flown to Perth but Ive driven to Brisbane and stopped off at various places along the way. If I had an EV it would have taken a month to get there. the GM Volt will do what you want and it has to come down in price to compete with Toyota hybrids ;)

SO WHEN ARE YOU BUYING ONE, LOSERNAIL?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:40pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:34pm: Quote: Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway? Canberra there are a lot of electric cars. [quote]we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983. We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think? SOB no there arent. damn, you are a stupid poster. you just make stuff up or recall some dream you were having and thought it was real.

http://www.actewagl.com.au/Environment/Environmental-initiatives/Green-energy-for-vehicles.aspx

http://canberraev.org/

http://www.betterplace.com.au/media/media-releases/better-place-wires-up-the-novotel-canberra-for-electric-cars.html

http://www.theaustralian.com.au%2Fbusiness%2Fcanberra-powers-ahead-with-electric-car-network%2Fstory-e6frg8zx-1226102325857&ei=YfYVUM_9IaSeiAf_7oEY&usg=AFQjCNEIPU_-y2kZmFc4HkTPJkB3VXHWCg

now answer my question kvnt

We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think?

SOB[/quote]


maybe the definition of 'a lot' is what confuses you 20 EVs is not 'a lot' for a major city.

moron.

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 3:07pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:39pm: youve obviously not been in a plane very often. one out of 3 get a 6inch window to see a probably cloud covered landscape and the view from 35,000 feet is impressive for about 10 minutes. after that you dont see anything you havent already seen before. You've never flown before, have you? so lets kill off EV's simply because you can't guarantee a good window seat in a plane :D LOL what a wanker !!

whan are YOU buying an EV, you dimwitted toad?

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:53pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:40pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 30th, 2012 at 12:34pm: Quote: Electric cars are no alternative to petrol cars as they simply dont do the job. what job dont they do? Speeding? We should slow down anyway why all this high powered crap we arent allowed to use anyway? Canberra there are a lot of electric cars. [quote]we were supposed to run out of petrol completely in 1983. We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think? SOB no there arent. damn, you are a stupid poster. you just make stuff up or recall some dream you were having and thought it was real. http://www.actewagl.com.au/Environment/Environmental-initiatives/Green-energy-for-vehicles.aspx http://canberraev.org/ http://www.betterplace.com.au/media/media-releases/better-place-wires-up-the-novotel-canberra-for-electric-cars.html http://www.theaustralian.com.au%2Fbusiness%2Fcanberra-powers-ahead-with-electric-car-network%2Fstory-e6frg8zx-1226102325857&ei=YfYVUM_9IaSeiAf_7oEY&usg=AFQjCNEIPU_-y2kZmFc4HkTPJkB3VXHWCg now answer my question kvnt We are going to run out sooner or later. When do you think? SOB

maybe the definition of 'a lot' is what confuses you 20 EVs is not 'a lot' for a major city.

moron.[/quote]

There are more than 20 and canberra is a pretty small city. You see them all the time.

ANSWER MY QUESTION DIMWIT.

SOB