It is the case in Australia that Society supports those who, for what ever reason, cannot support themselves. Our tax system ensures that earned income is redistributed to those in need. This is societies obligation to the needy.

The needy however also have an obligation to Society, depending upon the kind of assistance they are getting and on their capacity to meet certain of those obligations.

Those on pensions have an overarching obligation to present an honest account of their situation and notify of any changes to their situation in a speedy manner.

For Carer's there is an additional obligation to care full time for a person who cannot care for themselves.

For many Allowance recipients who are working age there is an additional obligation of being seen to be looking for work and/or increasing or maintaining their employability so that they can become independent or at least reduce their Welfare dependency.

So my question to the readership is this: What kinds of activities should Society expect a Welfare Dependant person to engage, in order to satisfy their obligation to Society?

I'll kick it off with a couple of examples that currently are in play.

Youth who receive Youth Allowance have no exemption to study where it is that they have not completed their Secondary Education. They must engage in comparable studies such as Certificate III and IV Nationally Accredited studies, or be working, or be involved in a holistic youth program which addresses social and economic issues. Idleness is not an option.

Older Australians, 55 and over, but under retirement age, as has been pointed out by the moderator of this sub forum and Crooked, struggle to secure employment for themselves, and consequently their obligation to society is shifted somewhat to account for this age bias attitude to working age people. Essentially then, if the Mature Aged can secure 15 hrs per week of employment or volunteer their time to a not for profit organisation, their obligation to Society will be deemed satisfied.

But what about the long term unemployed or those from a Generational Welfare Dependency households: What should their obligation to Society be?      

Quote: - "But what about the long term unemployed or those from a Generational Welfare Dependency households: What should their obligation to Society be? "


Actually, a very good question.

It would depend on their attitude more than anything else.

Even a long-term u/e may find work IF he keeps looking, it's
not impossible, and it isn't necessarily that they don't look.

Looking but failing, isn't bludging. Not looking at all is. And this
has nothing to do with the length of time spent on the dole.

A friend is a case-manager at Mission Employment, and he says
that it all comes down to attitude.

He says he has long-term blokes who never miss interviews, are
well-presented, and will 'take anything' but some short-termers
who won't do a thing to help themselves. Almost all of his mature-
age clients do volunteer work by choice, not compulsion.

To single the long-term out is not indicative of their willingness
to work, or perceived lack of it. More the perception that they
'must' be bludgers, or they'd have found work.



As to obligations.....I'm now speaking of those who won't make
any effort, not the genuine unemployed in general....

Well, there's always Work for the Dole, but it is purely punitive
with no benefit whatsoever to the job-seeker. Nor was it ever
intended to be. Makes the 'tax-payer' feel good, that's about
the only benefit.

Or there's mandated training. Not that there is anywhere near
enough of this available, and much of what is, isn't relevant to
today's workforce needs.

Other than that, I don't know. But I doubt that taking their
meagre allowance away because of it is the right answer.

And no, generally speaking I have no problem with the unemployed being
expected to 'give' a bit to society in return for the dole, but NOT on a punitive
basis.

But the GOVT has an obligation to ensure that the payments are adequate.

They have repeatedly refused to do so.

In this, surely the Govt have breached THEIR side of 'mutual obligation'?

Just to re-clarify... this thread is not about the adequacy of payments, nor is about dole bludgers (what ever that means), nor is about punishing Welfare Dependent people.

This is about Mutual Obligations and what those obligations should be for the Welfare Dependent, with a focus on long term unemployed and generational welfare dependency.

CAN WE PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC FOR AT LEAST A COUPLE OF PAGES. Is that asking too much from the moderator?

IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 4:51pm:

IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job. SOB

I am inclined to agree with you. Do you think it would be better if they were removed from NSA once they become long term unemployed (that is, no work in 12 months) and placed on a 'Welfare Wage' which will pay minimum wage for amount of hours worked up to the value of NSA in a Work for the Dole project?

So for example $15.96 (min wage per hr) x 15 hrs work per week = $239.40 (which is approx NSA weekly amount)

I am not a believer in mutual obligation; the term is primarily just an excuse to punish people on welfare.

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 5:52pm:

I am not a believer in mutual obligation; the term is primarily just an excuse to punish people on welfare.

So you believe that society has no obligation to the individual and the individual has no obligation to society eh?

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 2:05pm:

Just to re-clarify... this thread is not about the adequacy of payments, nor is about dole bludgers (what ever that means), nor is about punishing Welfare Dependent people. This is about Mutual Obligations and what those obligations should be for the Welfare Dependent, with a focus on long term unemployed and generational welfare dependency. CAN WE PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC FOR AT LEAST A COUPLE OF PAGES. Is that asking too much from the moderator?

Um, both my posts addressed your main point, ie mutual
obligation and the long-term OR welfare-dependent.

So, no, not off-topic.

I actually think that they both rather supported your view
that the unemployed should give something back.

Contextual references are just that, contextual.

If you don't like people becoming welfare dependant,

Well then provide them with a JOB.

You won't fix unemployment if you do nothing to help people, And unemployed person doing mutual obligation activities does help them.

Providing them with a JOB helps them.
To not be welfare Depentdant.

Quote:

But what about the long term unemployed or those from a Generational Welfare Dependency households: What should their obligation to Society be?

Centerlink already has rules about that.
Maybe you should come up with a few ideas.   

Here' s the solution, run employment programs that lead to perminent work. Not mutial obligation that leads back to unemployment.

Perhaps the dole could be offered as a legitimate alternative lifestyle option for bachelors and spinsters?

It would remove Tens of Thousands of single people from the workplace ~ thus creating vacancies for married couples who need a double income to care for their children and pay off their homes.

I've read your rules, Kat, but fair suck of the sav ~ is this bullshit or not?

I don't believe for one brief moment that this situation ISN'T brought about by lack of personal responsibility.

In the suburb where I live there's a taxi rank. Over the years I've noticed that the people who mostly use this expensive service are wretched-looking bogans with fags hanging out of their mouths and a brood of unwashed brats hanging onto the stroller that's carrying the latest baby bonus ($5000).

Often they'll be carrying a box of tinnies to take home.

And then we're told their starving.

I hope you aren't arguing that the 'working poor' are deserving of charity assistance, but the unemployed aren't?

And I notice that you judge one's employment-status by their dress and behaviour. I know and even work with
people who, when not at work look and act just as you describe. But they aren't unemployed.

As for personal responsibility or the lack of... let me tell you a story.

Last time I became unemployed, it had absolutely nothing to do with personal responsibility or the lack of it on
my part, but everything to do with the company I worked for going broke. But I was abused and vilified for being
out of work, as if it had been 100% my fault. And of course, I was a 'bludger' despite working tirelessly for charity
as a volunteer.And yes, I starved, the dole is not nearly enough to pay for rent and essential services and expect
to eat too.

And I saw that other unemployed, no matter how or for how long they'd been out of work, were also being vilified
and abused, discriminated against, and generally being treated like some kind of different, barely-human sub-species
deserving of nothing but contempt. With no justification whatsoever.

Then there was the way they get used as political fodder and as targets ant budget/election times. I decided that
it was time something was done, and so started becoming active politically to try to get them a better deal and to
dispel once and for all the offensive and untrue Howardian 'dole-bludger' myth.

Support for this is growing by the day now, with all kinds of unlikely sources getting aboard.

We WILL win...  :)

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 4:51pm:

IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job. SOB

I'm inclined to agree with this because it's a very logical conclusion.

If you're not Working for the Dole ~ then you ARE on the dole.

But if you ARE under a compulsory work-order from the government, then their payments to you can't be classified as the dole, but wages.

It's mutually contradictory to say 'Working for the Dole'.

It can only be a dole for being unemployed, or it's a wage for you working.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 22^nd, 2013 at 3:36pm:

Perhaps the dole could be offered as a legitimate alternative lifestyle option for bachelors and spinsters? It would remove Tens of Thousands of single people from the workplace ~ thus creating vacancies for married couples who need a double income to care for their children and pay off their homes. I've read your rules, Kat, but fair suck of the sav ~ is this bullshit or not? I don't believe for one brief moment that this situation ISN'T brought about by lack of personal responsibility. In the suburb where I live there's a taxi rank. Over the years I've noticed that the people who mostly use this expensive service are wretched-looking bogans with fags hanging out of their mouths and a brood of unwashed brats hanging onto the stroller that's carrying the latest baby bonus ($5000). Often they'll be carrying a box of tinnies to take home. And then we're told their starving.

They may be working poor - you dont know.

SOB

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 5:09pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 9th, 2012 at 4:51pm: IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job. SOB I am inclined to agree with you. Do you think it would be better if they were removed from NSA once they become long term unemployed (that is, no work in 12 months) and placed on a 'Welfare Wage' which will pay minimum wage for amount of hours worked up to the value of NSA in a Work for the Dole project? So for example $15.96 (min wage per hr) x 15 hrs work per week = $239.40 (which is approx NSA weekly amount)

$15.96 a hour for a unemployed person that has been trained for a specific occupation is Slave labor in a non sense job they don't need, when there is another worker out their getting the correct rate of pay for that occupation.

You can't solve unemployment by keeping people unemployed.

I have a friend who is 56. She lost her job (of 36 years) and hasnt been able to get another one because she has no qualifications and she is too old. She has a child below 18 also. IMO she should be either given a job or left alone. Its not like theres any work out there for her (although she hasnt gotten discouraged yet and is still actively looking after 8 months). These are the kind of ppl that are classified "long term unemployed".

SOB

Lord Herbert wrote on May 28^th, 2013 at 11:31am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 9th, 2012 at 4:51pm: IMO work for the dole is slave labour. If they are going to make you work for it then they should pay you properly and call it a job. SOB I'm inclined to agree with this because it's a very logical conclusion. If you're not Working for the Dole ~ then you ARE on the dole. But if you ARE under a compulsory work-order from the government, then their payments to you can't be classified as the dole, but wages. It's mutually contradictory to say 'Working for the Dole'. It can only be a dole for being unemployed, or it's a wage for you working.

Unfortunately Herbert to the rest of our Elitist Australians, a person doing Work for the Dole is still on the Dole and not working in their eyes.

Its a question of ATTITUDE and the peoples Attitude has to change, not just the unemployed persons attitude.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

I have a friend who is 56. She lost her job (of 36 years) and hasnt been able to get another one because she has no qualifications and she is too old. She has a child below 18 also. IMO she should be either given a job or left alone. Its not like theres any work out there for her (although she hasnt gotten discouraged yet and is still actively looking after 8 months). These are the kind of ppl that are classified "long term unemployed". SOB

8 months unemployed, since being made redundant isn't Long term Unemployed.

8 months on the Dole you have NFI (Kats saying on here)

Ahh this look slike an appropriate thread to ask the million dollar question that alwys seems to be sidestepped:

IF the well-off have an obligation to support the less well-off, what obligation do the less well-off have in return?

warrigal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 11:18am:

You can't solve unemployment by keeping people unemployed.

I'd like to be there when Centrelink finally gives you a job, Warrigal.

I think they'll have somebody standing by with a big butterfly net when they finally give you the good news...

It's my guess they'll have to chase you all over town to the theme song of the Benny Hill Show.

;D

... wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 11:55am:

Ahh this look slike an appropriate thread to ask the million dollar question that alwys seems to be sidestepped: IF the well-off have an obligation to support the less well-off, what obligation do the less well-off have in return?

Why should they do anything in return? Nearly all pensioners have already done their bit and contributed to society. unemployed will contribute when they get jobs.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 2:08pm:

... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 11:55am: Ahh this look slike an appropriate thread to ask the million dollar question that alwys seems to be sidestepped: IF the well-off have an obligation to support the less well-off, what obligation do the less well-off have in return? Why should they do anything in return? Nearly all pensioners have already done their bit and contributed to society. unemployed will contribute when they get jobs. SOB

Are you serious????  Ever heard of "give and take?"

I don't think he has.

... wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 2:08pm: ... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 11:55am: Ahh this look slike an appropriate thread to ask the million dollar question that alwys seems to be sidestepped: IF the well-off have an obligation to support the less well-off, what obligation do the less well-off have in return? Why should they do anything in return? Nearly all pensioners have already done their bit and contributed to society. unemployed will contribute when they get jobs. SOB Are you serious????  Ever heard of "give and take?"

Did you read my post or just the first few words?

SOB

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

I don't think he has.

Obviously you cant read either since i explained the "give and take" in my post.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 3:25pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 2:48pm: I don't think he has. Obviously you cant read either since i explained the "give and take" in my post. SOB

 
No you didn't.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 2:08pm:

... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 11:55am: Ahh this look slike an appropriate thread to ask the million dollar question that alwys seems to be sidestepped: IF the well-off have an obligation to support the less well-off, what obligation do the less well-off have in return? Why should they do anything in return? Nearly all pensioners have already done their bit and contributed to society. unemployed will contribute when they get jobs. SOB

Maybe some of us have already done plenty in return for welfare, so when does this mutural obligation end and the Job seeker gets respected by all.

Quote:  unemployed will contribute when they get jobs.

The unemployed have already contributed.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 1:26pm:

warrigal wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 11:18am: You can't solve unemployment by keeping people unemployed. I'd like to be there when Centrelink finally gives you a job, Warrigal. I think they'll have somebody standing by with a big butterfly net when they finally give you the good news... It's my guess they'll have to chase you all over town to the theme song of the Benny Hill Show. ;D

Very Funny Elder Herbet of the korri nation, why don't you take you advise to your botherhood and your own youth unemployed people.

Then you could help them get jobs too. But es you do help them you just won't help other Australians. You have a Imigrant Australian mentality, I will provide for my own but bugger any one else.

... wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 2:08pm: ... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 11:55am: Ahh this look slike an appropriate thread to ask the million dollar question that alwys seems to be sidestepped: IF the well-off have an obligation to support the less well-off, what obligation do the less well-off have in return? Why should they do anything in return? Nearly all pensioners have already done their bit and contributed to society. unemployed will contribute when they get jobs. SOB Are you serious????  Ever heard of "give and take?"

Well how about 3 WFD programs 4 years volunteering in Disability industry, along with 2 years at a community centre, oh and 25 years as Leader in the Scout movement. and other youth organizations.

Is that enough Community mutal obligation to sadisfy the population. GIVE


I think I have done plenty of GIVE, so when do I get to have my Take.

So we've had attempts from warrigal and Borg, and as expected, both failed dsiamally.

Anyone with a brain care to offer their 2 cents worth?

... wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 3:46pm:

So we've had attempts from warrigal and Borg, and as expected, both failed dsiamally. Anyone with a brain care to offer their 2 cents worth?

I think this is worth a lot more than your 2 cents worth, like about $250000 worth particularly the 25 years of service.


Well how about 3 WFD programs 4 years volunteering in Disability industry, along with 2 years at a community centre, oh and 25 years as Leader in the Scout movement. and other youth organizations.

Is that enough Community mutal obligation to sadisfy the population. GIVE


I think I have done plenty of GIVE, so when do I get to have my Take.

This whole article misses a very important point:

I know of 5 people who can't receive any dole or sickness payment from the government
even though they worked & payed enormous taxes all their life
& they are now unemployed or too sick to work.

Centerlink has 1001 reasons why not to pay people the dole & sickness benefits including:
receiving redundancy money from their former employer,
having money in the bank
having assets over a certain maximum
their wife is working

the list goes on & on.

Basically they won't pay you unless you're broke
regardless if you have paid millions of dollars in taxes over your working lifetime.
The Govt. takes but they don't want to give it back.
They are bastards.

Just put a line through your electoral form in marker pen - not pencil -
never vote for those who don't care about you.

[/quote]

The Govt. takes but they don't want to give it back.
They are bastards.


Yes they take our mutual obligation GIVE, but they won't return the Thanks in employment or pensions for the aged, disabiled or sick

IMO 'Work for a Dole Payment" is not unreasonable if it works but there's got to be some other incentive to motivate the long term unemployed to be useful members of society. Australia likes to impose compulsory voting, why not compulsory training for other jobs? After 12 months if progress is zero, again periodic evaluation and counselling, then all payments cease.

The unemployed who genuinely want work WILL retrain, or find something which will allow them to live reasonably well with the prospect of advancement. The others are just smacking useless and if that's the case the only answer is no work no money, work for their dole or NO DOLE.

Yes Warrigal,
how many people are registered as sick or unemployed yet not receiving a cent in payments?

Do people in such a situation appear in the unemployment figures?
- or is that all hidden from us?

warrigal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 3:52pm:

... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 3:46pm: So we've had attempts from warrigal and Borg, and as expected, both failed dsiamally. Anyone with a brain care to offer their 2 cents worth? I think this is worth a lot more than your 2 cents worth, like about $250000 worth particularly the 25 years of service. Well how about 3 WFD programs 4 years volunteering in Disability industry, along with 2 years at a community centre, oh and 25 years as Leader in the Scout movement. and other youth organizations. Is that enough Community mutal obligation to sadisfy the population. GIVE I think I have done plenty of GIVE, so when do I get to have my Take.

I was speaking in general, not your specific case.

Socrates wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 4:04pm:

IMO 'Work for a Dole Payment" is not unreasonable if it works but there's got to be some other incentive to motivate the long term unemployed to be useful members of society. Australia likes to impose compulsory voting, why not compulsory training for other jobs? After 12 months if progress is zero, again periodic evaluation and counselling, then all payments cease. The unemployed who genuinely want work WILL retrain, or find something which will allow them to live reasonably well with the prospect of advancement. The others are just smacking useless and if that's the case the only answer is no work no money, work for their dole or NO DOLE.

So in your eyes a person that does all the Training provided, does all the mutual obligation activities, as well as just volunteering in the community is a USELESS person.

And the Government can decide to destroy their lives by not allowing them access to job serach to be able to climb out of the hole of unemployment and use their Skills and abilitys, because their just useless people.

Been retraining for years, still no help coming my way.

Oh and no respect for the retraining.

HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU EXPECT OUT OF MUTUAL OBLIGATION, i THINk $250000 OF VALUE IS ENOUGH TO EARN SOME RESPECT FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND MORE PARTICULARLY THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY.

No fix the problem what these trained people arn't being considered for Employment, and it isn't a problem in the Unemployed person head.

Think about it.

warrigal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 3:34pm:

Very Funny Elder Herbet of the korri nation, why don't you take you advise to your botherhood and your own youth unemployed people.

I've told my Pitjantjatjara people to go further into the desert to keep well away from the Whiteman's lunatic lifestyle.

There are at least five Pharmacists in every suburban Main Street handing out tons of ingestible chemicals each year to keep the local Whites capable of continuing to run in their office or factory rotating rat-wheels.

I've told them to use their nulla nullas if a Centrelink staff member should track them down to where they're hiding.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/ruffdiamond/January%202013/March%20album/April%20album/ratwheel_zps63c42247.png

warrigal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 4:10pm:

Socrates wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:04pm: IMO 'Work for a Dole Payment" is not unreasonable if it works but there's got to be some other incentive to motivate the long term unemployed to be useful members of society. Australia likes to impose compulsory voting, why not compulsory training for other jobs? After 12 months if progress is zero, again periodic evaluation and counselling, then all payments cease. The unemployed who genuinely want work WILL retrain, or find something which will allow them to live reasonably well with the prospect of advancement. The others are just smacking useless and if that's the case the only answer is no work no money, work for their dole or NO DOLE. So in your eyes a person that does all the Training provided, does all the mutual obligation activities, just volunteering in the community is a USELESS person. And the Government can decide to destroy their lives by not allowing them access to job serach to be able to climb out of the hole. Been retraining for years, still no help coming my way. Oh and no respect for the retraining.

My only answer where you are concerned, if you've "been retraining for years", is try training for something other than a smacking brain surgeon or fast jet pilot. You appear to blame everybody else for your inability to learn.

You are being trained on the taxpayer what the bugger, you want "respect" as well!!!  Learn and get a job, that's when the respect will materialise.

Bobby. wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 4:07pm:

Yes Warrigal, how many people are registered as sick or unemployed yet not receiving a cent in payments? Do people in such a situation appear in the unemployment figures? - or is that all hidden from us?

Well Bat I am sick (high Blood presure and stress) and I can receive payments, so why can't your friends with old age and years of hard work behind them, yes it could be how much money they have, but their shouldn't  be any other reason, I know plenty on a DSP pension because they have a bad bak becuse of the work they did all there lives.

Socrates wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 4:17pm:

warrigal wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:10pm: Socrates wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:04pm: IMO 'Work for a Dole Payment" is not unreasonable if it works but there's got to be some other incentive to motivate the long term unemployed to be useful members of society. Australia likes to impose compulsory voting, why not compulsory training for other jobs? After 12 months if progress is zero, again periodic evaluation and counselling, then all payments cease. The unemployed who genuinely want work WILL retrain, or find something which will allow them to live reasonably well with the prospect of advancement. The others are just smacking useless and if that's the case the only answer is no work no money, work for their dole or NO DOLE. So in your eyes a person that does all the Training provided, does all the mutual obligation activities, just volunteering in the community is a USELESS person. And the Government can decide to destroy their lives by not allowing them access to job serach to be able to climb out of the hole. Been retraining for years, still no help coming my way. Oh and no respect for the retraining. My only answer where you are concerned, if you've "been retraining for years", is try training for something other than a smacking brain surgeon or fast jet pilot. You appear to blame everybody else for your inability to learn. You are being trained on the taxpayer what the bugger, you want "respect" as well!!!  Learn and get a job, that's when the respect will materialise.

Oh I have learnt, trained, skilled whatever else does the public want , as I said its not my attitude that need adusting its the people in the communitys attitude, Employers, people in Job search agencys. They can't just continue to tell the trained job seekers sorry I think your USELESS.

Because we are far from that.


25 years of doing something in the comunity, plus government mutual obligation, doen't make a job seeker USELESS.

warrigal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 4:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:07pm: Yes Warrigal, how many people are registered as sick or unemployed yet not receiving a cent in payments? Do people in such a situation appear in the unemployment figures? - or is that all hidden from us? Well Bat I am sick (high Blood presure and stress) and I can receive payments, so why can't your friends with old age and years of hard work behind them, yes it could be how much money they have, but their shouldn't  be any other reason, I know plenty on a DSP pension because they have a bad bak becuse of the work they did all there lives.

That's a miracle - no one I know can get a cent out of them.

warrigal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 4:31pm:

25 years of doing something in the comunity, plus government mutual obligation, doen't make a job seeker USELESS.

Absolutely correct.  It must be something else that makes you useless.  Your attitude perhaps?

... wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 5:37pm:

warrigal wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:31pm: 25 years of doing something in the comunity, plus government mutual obligation, doen't make a job seeker USELESS. Absolutely correct.  It must be something else that makes you useless.  Your attitude perhaps?

WRONG honky, you must be a friend of Herbert and you think you have the right to lord it over us, you don't.


Oh forgot to mention the 2 months extra WFD at the local Garbage dump though the heat of the Queensland summer, I had to do because, my job network lost about 10 of my WFD time sheets in the disability care industry. And I was just told to do another 2 months on top of the 6 months I had already done for WFD and mutal obligation to complete the 6 months.

So when does the Mutual Obligation finish and the respect starts.

Trained worker, valuable person.

Anyone

KAT

warrigal wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 5:55pm:

... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 5:37pm: warrigal wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:31pm: 25 years of doing something in the comunity, plus government mutual obligation, doen't make a job seeker USELESS. Absolutely correct.  It must be something else that makes you useless.  Your attitude perhaps? WRONG honky, you must be a friend of Herbert and you think you have the right to lord it over us, you don't. Oh forgot to mention the 2 months extra WFD at the local Garbage dump though the heat of the Queensland summer, I had to do because, my job network lost about 10 of my WFD time sheets in the disability care industry. And I was just told to do another 2 months on top of the 6 months I had already done for WFD and mutal obligation to complete the 6 months. So when does the Mutual Obligation finish and the respect starts. Trained worker, valuable person. Anyone KAT

Mutual Obligation died on Budget Night with the increase refusal.

IMO, the govt has broken it's side of the deal, so all bets should be off.

As for respect, those who abuse the unemployed have no concept of the meaning of the word.

... wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 3:46pm:

So we've had attempts from warrigal and Borg, and as expected, both failed dsiamally. Anyone with a brain care to offer their 2 cents worth?

Attempts?

If you disagree explain what it is you disagree with and why. Just claiming victory where none exists shows you to be one of those ppl that isnt interested in debate but just abuse.

SOB

... wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 3:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 2:48pm: I don't think he has. Obviously you cant read either since i explained the "give and take" in my post. SOB   No you didn't.

Liar. You are just too lazy to read the entire post.

SOB

Socrates wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 4:04pm:

IMO 'Work for a Dole Payment" is not unreasonable if it works but there's got to be some other incentive to motivate the long term unemployed to be useful members of society. Australia likes to impose compulsory voting, why not compulsory training for other jobs? After 12 months if progress is zero, again periodic evaluation and counselling, then all payments cease. The unemployed who genuinely want work WILL retrain, or find something which will allow them to live reasonably well with the prospect of advancement. The others are just smacking useless and if that's the case the only answer is no work no money, work for their dole or NO DOLE.

In a country where there are 200k jobs and 600k job seekers thats a bit much to ask.

SOB

Kat wrote on May 29^th, 2013 at 9:41pm:

warrigal wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 5:55pm: ... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 5:37pm: warrigal wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:31pm: 25 years of doing something in the comunity, plus government mutual obligation, doen't make a job seeker USELESS. Absolutely correct.  It must be something else that makes you useless.  Your attitude perhaps? WRONG honky, you must be a friend of Herbert and you think you have the right to lord it over us, you don't. Oh forgot to mention the 2 months extra WFD at the local Garbage dump though the heat of the Queensland summer, I had to do because, my job network lost about 10 of my WFD time sheets in the disability care industry. And I was just told to do another 2 months on top of the 6 months I had already done for WFD and mutal obligation to complete the 6 months. So when does the Mutual Obligation finish and the respect starts. Trained worker, valuable person. Anyone KAT Mutual Obligation died on Budget Night with the increase refusal. IMO, the govt has broken it's side of the deal, so all bets should be off. As for respect, those who abuse the unemployed have no concept of the meaning of the word.

A new WFD scheame will happen and come into force after We change Government, It will be seen as the only option.
But it will probably be one like someone here suggests, 12 months unemployed, automatically permenent WFD and a welfare wage.

So why don't all you Elitists out there create your slave labor camps for the unemployed,
all you will archive is working people into the ground and they die.

But hay they are only the unemployed, nothing too worry about.

Calm down BOAG, Kat and I will deal with all the IGNORANT protractors that come on here with their Unemployed people, lasy bastards chants.

They can ask they questions and I will provide them with the answers.

Unemployment is about ATTITUDE and it is not just the Unemployed persons ATTITUDE.

Warrigal wrote:-
Quote:

Unemployment is about ATTITUDE and it is not just the Unemployed persons ATTITUDE.

Yes, you're right. it's not just the 'attitude' of the unemployed.

I was speaking to a 'gentleman' one day about unemployment, he was really going to town running
them down.

You know, the usual 'won't work', 'won't look for work', 'drunks', 'druggies', etc. In fact, just about
all the usual offensive stereotypes were trotted out.

He owns a small contracting company, so I asked him if he had ever employed anyone from off the
dole.

'No, I wont employ bludgers' he  replied. 'Won't waste my time giving them a start'.

So I asked how he could tell which were the 'bludgers' and which weren't.

'Oh, they ALL are' was the answer. End of story.

Now, this bloke was in a good position to help at least one or two unemployed to get back into work.

But due entirely to HIS ignorance and HIS bias, two blokes were out of work who needn't have been.

IMO it should be illegal to refuse someone a job simply because they are unemployed.

But it DOES happen.

A lot.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 4:40am:

Socrates wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 4:04pm: IMO 'Work for a Dole Payment" is not unreasonable if it works but there's got to be some other incentive to motivate the long term unemployed to be useful members of society. Australia likes to impose compulsory voting, why not compulsory training for other jobs? After 12 months if progress is zero, again periodic evaluation and counselling, then all payments cease. The unemployed who genuinely want work WILL retrain, or find something which will allow them to live reasonably well with the prospect of advancement. The others are just smacking useless and if that's the case the only answer is no work no money, work for their dole or NO DOLE. In a country where there are 200k jobs and 600k job seekers thats a bit much to ask. SOB

Sorry BOAG, I have to correct you again, 1 Million Job seekers, Plus thows of less than full time employment, Disability and Aged pensioners, plus thows that come to this country as Imigrants on visas .etc.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 4:37am:

... wrote on May 29th, 2013 at 3:46pm: So we've had attempts from warrigal and Borg, and as expected, both failed dsiamally. Anyone with a brain care to offer their 2 cents worth? Attempts? If you disagree explain what it is you disagree with and why. Just claiming victory where none exists shows you to be one of those ppl that isnt interested in debate but just abuse. SOB

Just to get something straight....

This is not 'General', and posters will be expected to adhere to a higher standard than that seen there.

Abuse and trolling of either welfare recipients or other posters such as occurs on 'General' isn't acceptable here.

The board is intended as a place to discuss all types of welfare, both pro and con, not a forum for those who
oppose welfare to sink the boot into recipients. Dissent is welcome, but abuse or denigration is not.

For anyone who does want to abuse and denigrate, it is recommended that you remain on 'General'.

I won't permit this board to degenerate into abuse or a slanging-match, such as is seen 'upstairs', and will moderate
accordingly.

It's up to you how strict or lenient that will be.....



Kat (Moderator). 

Simple dam question kat, not "trolling"- IF the well-off have an obligation to help those less well-off (as is the frequently claimed here) what obligation do the less well off have in return? 

They'll contribute when they get jobs doesn't cut it - what if they never get one?  What if the one they do get pays too poo to contribute?  Would you loan $10,000 to someone who's only guarantee was "I'll pay ya back when I can?"

... wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 8:29am:

Simple dam question kat, not "trolling"- IF the well-off have an obligation to help those less well-off (as is the frequently claimed here) what obligation do the less well off have in return?  They'll contribute when they get jobs doesn't cut it - what if they never get one?  What if the one they do get pays too poo to contribute?  Would you loan $10,000 to someone who's only guarantee was "I'll pay ya back when I can?"

As i said in my original post that you ignored - most of them have already contributed while they were working.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 8:42am:

... wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 8:29am: Simple dam question kat, not "trolling"- IF the well-off have an obligation to help those less well-off (as is the frequently claimed here) what obligation do the less well off have in return?  They'll contribute when they get jobs doesn't cut it - what if they never get one?  What if the one they do get pays too poo to contribute?  Would you loan $10,000 to someone who's only guarantee was "I'll pay ya back when I can?" As i said in my original post that you ignored - most of them have already contributed while they were working. SOB

You don't know that, you just say it because it doesn't require any thought.  Have 19 year old punks contributed?  Hence, I extended my question to those with a track record of using their brain.

... wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 9:39am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 8:42am: ... wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 8:29am: Simple dam question kat, not "trolling"- IF the well-off have an obligation to help those less well-off (as is the frequently claimed here) what obligation do the less well off have in return?  They'll contribute when they get jobs doesn't cut it - what if they never get one?  What if the one they do get pays too poo to contribute?  Would you loan $10,000 to someone who's only guarantee was "I'll pay ya back when I can?" As i said in my original post that you ignored - most of them have already contributed while they were working. SOB You don't know that, you just say it because it doesn't require any thought.  Have 19 year old punks contributed?  Hence, I extended my question to those with a track record of using their brain.

Most unemployed have contributed. 19 year old punks arent long term unemployed are they. For them contributing once they get a job is valid. Perhaps you should use your brain.

SOB

... wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 8:29am:

Simple dam question kat, not "trolling"- IF the well-off have an obligation to help those less well-off (as is the frequently claimed here) what obligation do the less well off have in return?  They'll contribute when they get jobs doesn't cut it - what if they never get one?  What if the one they do get pays too poo to contribute?  Would you loan $10,000 to someone who's only guarantee was "I'll pay ya back when I can?"

It's a general warning before things get out-of-hand, nothing more.

I had no-one specifically in mind, but I want to avoid the abuse and BS that goes on upstairs.

As to your question, I did post early in the thread that I have no issue with the unemployed being obliged to 'give back'
in some way.

But, as I also stated, WfD isn't the answer unless there is a training component involved. Actually, owing to the fact that
many unemployed will need to re-skill in order to find work, there should be some sort of training involved in any 'mutual
obligation' program or activity. And not necessarily for low-end, menial or entry-level jobs. These people are not stupid or
uneducated, and they shouldn't be treated as such. If someone loses a job as a teacher or accountant, for example, then
it's not going to benefit him by training him to use a shovel, or forcing him to attend adult-literacy courses.

Putting people to work doing manual labour with hand-tools (no machinery), just as they did 100 years ago, really does
help no-one. They come off the program with no more skills than they held going in, and with no better prospects of getting
work. All they end up with is an, in some ways justified, dislike and mistrust of the system.

Volunteer work is another way they could 'give back', I know a few who do just that. Charities and non-profit organisations
are always crying out for volunteers, so send the unemployed, and slip them a decent supplement for doing so. $20/fn extra
is laughable, it doesn't even cover their fares and lunch.

Generally speaking, I do not feel that the Govt has been upholding its end of mutual obligation.

Anyway, I hope that goes some way to answering your question, maybe you or others can come up with some other ideas?


Kat.

Some countries only give Unemployment Benefits for 6 months ~ and then you're on your own.

If it were up to me I would try a system in which after 6 months, if you don't take one of the first 5 jobs ~ each being offered once per fortnight ~ that Centrelink offers you ~ and which you are capable of doing from a physical and transport point of view ... then your dole gets reduced by 20% upon each refusal to take the job.

The problem at present ~ (correct me if I'm wrong, Sappho) ~ is that 'penalty-docking' of Unemployment Benefits rarely if ever happens when 'clients' are in breach of their obligations.

Mention you have a baby, and rent to pay ~ and Centrelink staff will waive any penalties against you.

Actually a similar system is already in place. Refuse a job without a valid reason, no
money for X amount of time. And it compounds with any subsequent 'breaches'.

And yes, they do enforce it, I know of several instances locally.

I can't comment on your statement re babies or rent, because I simply don't know
what discretion Centrelink has in these cases.

Kat.

Kat wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

... wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 8:29am: Simple dam question kat, not "trolling"- IF the well-off have an obligation to help those less well-off (as is the frequently claimed here) what obligation do the less well off have in return?  They'll contribute when they get jobs doesn't cut it - what if they never get one?  What if the one they do get pays too poo to contribute?  Would you loan $10,000 to someone who's only guarantee was "I'll pay ya back when I can?" It's a general warning before things get out-of-hand, nothing more. I had no-one specifically in mind, but I want to avoid the abuse and BS that goes on upstairs. As to your question, I did post early in the thread that I have no issue with the unemployed being obliged to 'give back' in some way. But, as I also stated, WfD isn't the answer unless there is a training component involved. Actually, owing to the fact that many unemployed will need to re-skill in order to find work, there should be some sort of training involved in any 'mutual obligation' program or activity. And not necessarily for low-end, menial or entry-level jobs. These people are not stupid or uneducated, and they shouldn't be treated as such. If someone loses a job as a teacher or accountant, for example, then it's not going to benefit him by training him to use a shovel, or forcing him to attend adult-literacy courses. Putting people to work doing manual labour with hand-tools (no machinery), just as they did 100 years ago, really does help no-one. They come off the program with no more skills than they held going in, and with no better prospects of getting work. All they end up with is an, in some ways justified, dislike and mistrust of the system. Volunteer work is another way they could 'give back', I know a few who do just that. Charities and non-profit organisations are always crying out for volunteers, so send the unemployed, and slip them a decent supplement for doing so. $20/fn extra is laughable, it doesn't even cover their fares and lunch. Generally speaking, I do not feel that the Govt has been upholding its end of mutual obligation. Anyway, I hope that goes some way to answering your question, maybe you or others can come up with some other ideas? Kat.

Good work.  I too would like to see some form of training be required, not necssarily occupation specific.  I think many people would get the most value out of a course in interview skills, becasue that's where their problem lies.  There are plenty of jobs that don't require any pre-existing qualifications, but they just don't go to people who interview poorly.  Take warrigal - he might have the fantastic skills and experience that he says he does, but I wouldn't hire him, becasue his attitude is terrible.

Anyway, bottom line is I expect some commitment to undertakings that improve their chances.  I want o ensure that they are at least taking some steps towards providing for themselves. 

... wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 8:29am:

Simple dam question kat, not "trolling"- IF the well-off have an obligation to help those less well-off (as is the frequently claimed here) what obligation do the less well off have in return?  They'll contribute when they get jobs doesn't cut it - what if they never get one?  What if the one they do get pays too poo to contribute?  Would you loan $10,000 to someone who's only guarantee was "I'll pay ya back when I can?"

Well Honky the system needs to be made that a Job seeker does get the Job particully after the job seeker has been put though a mutal obligation activity.


A mutual obligation that leads back to the dole is USELESS

Honky I told you before, it is not my Attitude that is terrable it is the attitude of the Job networks that refuse to believe what my ocupation is. (years of training and voluntary work and they don't beleive it)

Does a doctor get told by a job netwotk, Oh I don't think your capable of doing that job, I think you should be a labourer.

Honky please do tell me what you think a person with my skills in community service work gains by doing WFD at a rubbish dump, and has to sort though garbage to try to find items that can be sold on the 2nd hand market, then re dump the rest of the stuff to the tip. (in the heat of the Queensland summer for an extra 2 months because dumb job network workers that lost my time sheets for the work I had already done in the first 6 months)

Lord Herbert wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 11:34am:

Some countries only give Unemployment Benefits for 6 months ~ and then you're on your own. If it were up to me I would try a system in which after 6 months, if you don't take one of the first 5 jobs ~ each being offered once per fortnight ~ that Centrelink offers you ~ and which you are capable of doing from a physical and transport point of view ... then your dole gets reduced by 20% upon each refusal to take the job. The problem at present ~ (correct me if I'm wrong, Sappho) ~ is that 'penalty-docking' of Unemployment Benefits rarely if ever happens when 'clients' are in breach of their obligations. Mention you have a baby, and rent to pay ~ and Centrelink staff will waive any penalties against you.

I would like to now Herbert where are these 5 or 6 Job offers being offered to the Unemployed.

I still haven't had any.

Because there not offering anything only mutaul obligation and that is not a JOB.

Nobody owes you a job, especially not when you refuse to make an effort.  Improve yourself and the rest will follow.

warrigal wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 4:46pm:

I would like to now Herbert where are these 5 or 6 Job offers being offered to the Unemployed. I still haven't had any.

I've contacted Centrelink and they've told me they have you booked up as currently being on holiday from Centrelink.

As one of the long-term Unemployed you have qualified for a Holiday from seeking work.

They promised me they will be giving you a job as soon as you've finished your Centrelink holiday.

8-)

Ignorant bastards the pair of you, I am not on a holiday from centrelink I am a Job seeker, that needs assistance. IE they provide me with a JOB in my trained and skilled  occupation.
If I where on a holiday from centrelink, I would be on sickness or a DSP but I am not. I still have to make a declaration every two weeks, If I were on a centrelink holiday I won't have to do that.

There you go Kat two posters here that have broken your rules about bashing the unemployed or those on welfare.

The best way to get a job is to already have a job.
Any type of work puts you in a better position to get a job.
Even if its work for the dole.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 5:00pm:

warrigal wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 4:46pm: I would like to now Herbert where are these 5 or 6 Job offers being offered to the Unemployed. I still haven't had any. I've contacted Centrelink and they've told me they have you booked up as currently being on holiday from Centrelink. As one of the long-term Unemployed you have qualified for a Holiday from seeking work. They promised me they will be giving you a job as soon as you've finished your Centrelink holiday. 8-)

Centerlink has only one aim:

make life hell for people who are sick or without a job.

Bobby. wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 5:11pm:

Centerlink has only one aim: make life hell for people who are sick or without a job.

Centrelink made me do 'Voluntary Work'(sic) right up until my 65th birthday. It was, in effect, Work for the Dole.

And yet my town centre is stiff with (white) young men and women who congregate in the outdoor cafes year after year with apparently a life-time exemption from having to look for work.

God help them if and when Abbott gets in. Within a year you won't see a single bludger in your local town centre. He'll have them into some sort of program soon enough.

Yes, Kat, there really ARE bludgers on the dole who are out in public as bold as brass.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 5:11pm: Centerlink has only one aim: make life hell for people who are sick or without a job. Centrelink made me do 'Voluntary Work'(sic) right up until my 65th birthday. It was, in effect, Work for the Dole. And yet my town centre is stiff with (white) young men and women who congregate in the outdoor cafes year after year with apparently a life-time exemption from having to look for work. God help them if and when Abbott gets in. Within a year you won't see a single bludger in your local town centre. He'll have them into some sort of program soon enough. Yes, Kat, there really ARE bludgers on the dole who are out in public as bold as brass.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

What makes you think the ppl in the cafes are unemployed?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

Hahahahahahahahaha! What makes you think the ppl in the cafes are unemployed?

It's the same crowd of degenerate-looking methodone-addicts, ex-prostitutes, ex-alcoholics, and ex-jailbirds, year-in, year-out..

Loud, obnoxious, disheveled, broken-toothed, ultra-bogans.

warrigal wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 5:07pm:

Ignorant bastards the pair of you,

They don't want to give you a job because they value you too much as a client looking for a job.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 9:04pm:

warrigal wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 5:07pm: Ignorant bastards the pair of you, They don't want to give you a job because they value you too much as a client looking for a job.

You could be onto something there.   ;) :P

Re the bludgers, of course they exist, both on and off the dole.

But in both cases they're (thankfully) a minority.

Their appearance, attitude and behaviour does no favours for the genuine ones though.

Maybe they should be given a bare minimum payment (less than the dole) and simply
told to smack off and stop wasting everyone else's time and effort.

Rank them as unemployables, and give the assistance to those who do want to work.

Well Kat Thats a tipical labor party supporters attitude, Minimum payment and fck off.

No one is unemployable, even a unemployable person can do something.

Herbert my old black bastard, you haven't contacted centrlink with my centrelink number that I posted on other topics, Because if you had I would have heard something from centrelink. nothing has changed I still have no JOB network. I still have to look for Work but have no job network services.

What has to happen is:

1, Get me off this stupid Perminent Job capacity assement.

2. Job seeker requests release from current Job network.

3. Job seeker requests relocation to Sunshine coast area of Queensland.

4. I get a new Job network at the Sunshine coast Qld.

5. I get to return to Job search and get employment in my trained and skilled occupation.

Untill this happens nothing changes for me.

Mutual obligation is not a option, I have DONE All the mutual oligation I will ever do, Now it is Time for A JOB.


Mutal obligations serves no purpose if the Job seeker is just sent back to beeing unemployed.

The current labor government has to rethink this one now before the change of government, because then nothing will be done.

Quote Herbert :
Loud, obnoxious, disheveled, broken-toothed, ultra-bogans.

A good definition of what you are HERBERT

Lord Herbert wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 8:28pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 5:34pm: Hahahahahahahahaha! What makes you think the ppl in the cafes are unemployed? It's the same crowd of degenerate-looking methodone-addicts, ex-prostitutes, ex-alcoholics, and ex-jailbirds, year-in, year-out.. Loud, obnoxious, disheveled, broken-toothed, ultra-bogans.

So they arent actually doing drugs and alcohol and they arent actually in jail or prostituting? i repeat how would you know what they are?

SOB

Kat wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 9:04pm: warrigal wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 5:07pm: Ignorant bastards the pair of you, They don't want to give you a job because they value you too much as a client looking for a job. You could be onto something there.   ;) :P Re the bludgers, of course they exist, both on and off the dole. But in both cases they're (thankfully) a minority. Their appearance, attitude and behaviour does no favours for the genuine ones though. Maybe they should be given a bare minimum payment (less than the dole) and simply told to smack off and stop wasting everyone else's time and effort. Rank them as unemployables, and give the assistance to those who do want to work.

But that is what they do to genuine job seekers. Since there are 400k less jobs than job seekers (or warrigals number of 1mil) why should the unemployed be punished?

SOB

bump

Kat wrote on May 30^th, 2013 at 11:02pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 9:04pm: warrigal wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 5:07pm: Ignorant bastards the pair of you, They don't want to give you a job because they value you too much as a client looking for a job. You could be onto something there.   ;) :P

Warrigal keeps insisting he wants a job.

But the truth is ... he is already hard at work keeping a score of Centrelink staff in employment trying to get HIM a job.

If he gets an alternative job to keeping the Centrelink staff trying to get him a job... his local Centrelink Office staff numbers would soon be down-sized.

And so ... Warrigal has a responsibility to his local Centrelink Office NOT to get another job besides keeping a score of the Centrelink staff busily employed trying to get him a job.

It's a symbiotic arrangement that's of mutual benefit to all concerned.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 6:30am:

Kat wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 11:02pm: Lord Herbert wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 9:04pm: warrigal wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 5:07pm: Ignorant bastards the pair of you, They don't want to give you a job because they value you too much as a client looking for a job. You could be onto something there.   ;) :P Re the bludgers, of course they exist, both on and off the dole. But in both cases they're (thankfully) a minority. Their appearance, attitude and behaviour does no favours for the genuine ones though. Maybe they should be given a bare minimum payment (less than the dole) and simply told to smack off and stop wasting everyone else's time and effort. Rank them as unemployables, and give the assistance to those who do want to work. But that is what they do to genuine job seekers. Since there are 400k less jobs than job seekers (or warrigals number of 1mil) why should the unemployed be punished? SOB

Ok, the comment was somewhat tongue- in-cheek, but the fact remains that
there is a small group who won't put in an effort no matter what you do.

These are the ones who never turn up for courses or appointments, do and
say things at job interviews to ensure they don't get the job, come to WfD
and just sit all day till knock-off-time.

They do exist, they are high-profile and highly visible as Herb said. And they
are bringing the rest down to their level.

No, I don't pretend to have all the answers, but don't believe that keeping all
unemployed in penury because of them is it. Nor is a WfD scheme based on
punishment, with no positive outcome whatsoever for the participant.

As Warrigal said, what's the point of a mutual-obligation program like WfD if
it just leads straight back onto the dole till your name comes up for another
WfD stint.

warrigal wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 6:21am:

Quote Herbert : Loud, obnoxious, disheveled, broken-toothed, ultra-bogans. A good definition of what you are HERBERT

DAMN! You've discovered my secret!  :-[

Work for the Dole is supposed to get the long-term unemployed used to the self-disciplines of a workday, with this starting with the alarm clock.

The hardest period of the working life is before it has become a habit.

Once it becomes a habit, and you slip into automation-mode, then the work-week is FAR less daunting and a lot more easy to deal with emotionally.

You simply then go with the flow. You join everyone else in the rat-race towards eventual retirement. It's not even necessary to think.

You just drift forward towards your future years like an amber autumn-coloured leaf sailing the surface of a swift-flowing stream deep in the depths of a hidden canyon where the walls echo to the sound of your screams......  :)

Emma? Another one for our Instant Poetry thread.  :)

Lord Herbert wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 8:31am:

Work for the Dole is supposed to get the long-term unemployed used to the self-disciplines of a workday, with this starting with the alarm clock. The hardest period of the working life is before it has become a habit. Once it becomes a habit, and you slip into automation-mode, then the work-week is FAR less daunting and a lot more easy to deal with emotionally. You simply then go with the flow. You join everyone else in the rat-race towards eventual retirement. It's not even necessary to think. You just drift forward towards your future years like an amber autumn-coloured leaf sailing the surface of a swift-flowing stream deep in the depths of a hidden canyon where the walls echo to the sound of your screams......  :) Emma? Another one for our Instant Poetry thread.  :)

True.

I worked with a bloke years ago who reckoned that the hardest
part of his day was walking from the front door to the car.

Once he'd done that, he reckoned, the rest of the day was a piece
of cake.

And yes, he was always there, and was a good worker.

Re WfD achieving this, I'd maintain that even a long-term unemployed, who
has worked prior to being on the dole would already have this 'skill'.

It could benefit the young who haven't yet acquired it.

But I still maintain that its main purpose is punitive.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 6:28am:

So they arent actually doing drugs and alcohol and they arent actually in jail or prostituting? i repeat how would you know what they are?

Good question.

I think this crowd is a mix of dole-bludgers and phoney Disability Support Pensioners.

It was in the papers only a few weeks ago that someone in authority (can't remember - might have been Abbott) - said that at least 80% of DSP are capable of some kind of work, and that they will be required to join the workforce before too long.

The Centrelink catch-phrase is ...

"We don't want to know what is WRONG with you ~ We want to know what is RIGHT with you ~ and give you a job according to your abilities and not your disabilities".

(Something like that).

As for these rowdy cafe habitués ~ they are always there during the prime time of every working day.

They have the appearance of rehabilitated one-time social degenerates. If you don't know what that looks like then I suggest you take a stroll down to your local Red Light district or your local Wine Bar.

I've worked with many prisoners on work-release before their final release from jail. The tattoos on the neck ... the spider-web tattoo on the elbows ... the L O V E and H A T E tattoos on the knuckles ... the tattooed tear-drops.

And that's just the women ...  8-)

I think you definitely have something re DSP recips with drug, alcohol, mental health issues.

Anyway, I better get to work myself, or I'll be 'in the poo'.

Later!

Kat wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 8:51am:

And yes, he was always there, and was a good worker.

On the point of being a 'good worker' ~ in the manufacturing industries where I worked, curiously enough the most conscientious and hard-working were the heavy-drinkers (of which I was one). 


Kat wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 8:51am:

Re WfD achieving this, I'd maintain that even a long-term unemployed, who has worked prior to being on the dole would already have this 'skill'.

I agree. It's like riding a bike.


Kat wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 8:51am:

It could benefit the young who haven't yet acquired it. But I still maintain that its main purpose is punitive.

Again (I think) I agree with you. It smacks of official petulance. I never could understand the logic of forcing job-seekers into a WftD program during which time they would be too busy and unavailable for looking for work ... d'ur.

I'll say this though. When I had to start looking for a job for the first time as a late-teenager I think it would have been infinitely more easy for me than it is for today's kids.

There was nothing at home for me. We didn't have any of the Home Entertainments that kids have today. Computers, digital TV's, fantastic Sound Systems, etc are incentives for staying at home.

Labor has destroyed the economy & Centerlink places good people
in a form of hell if they are sick, retrenched or unemployed.
It's almost as if the unemployed are punished for the sins of the Government -
scapegoats sacrificed on the Centerlink altar.

The tax department punishes people who start up businesses & entice high achievers
with share offerings - the employees have to pay tax before they even cash in the shares
which could end up worthless anyway.
Labor has done everything in their power to destroy business.


I hope Labor will be finished for all time -

that they will never again be elected to run this country.
This is their last election - administrators should have been appointed years ago.

I also hope that the whole lot of them will face jail for gross criminal negligence.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 31^st, 2013 at 8:07am:

Kat wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 11:02pm: Lord Herbert wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 9:04pm: warrigal wrote on May 30th, 2013 at 5:07pm: Ignorant bastards the pair of you, They don't want to give you a job because they value you too much as a client looking for a job. You could be onto something there.   ;) :P Warrigal keeps insisting he wants a job. But the truth is ... he is already hard at work keeping a score of Centrelink staff in employment trying to get HIM a job. If he gets an alternative job to keeping the Centrelink staff trying to get him a job... his local Centrelink Office staff numbers would soon be down-sized. And so ... Warrigal has a responsibility to his local Centrelink Office NOT to get another job besides keeping a score of the Centrelink staff busily employed trying to get him a job. It's a symbiotic arrangement that's of mutual benefit to all concerned.

You Herbert The korri Are the biggest most IGNORANT person here on these forum,

A centrelink office helping me, what a load of crap, how there hell do you get theese ideas into your twisted head.

I get NO help from centrelink, No help from Job networks, and No help from anyone one else.

they Don't fckn CARE.

What is the purpose of people to be employed by job network by the Australian government If alll they do is monitor unemployment and keep a daily tally of how many jobs are availble at one one time, But not HELP people get these Jobs.

What is there purpose.

As Quoted by the korri, It's a symbiotic arrangement that's of mutual benefit to all concerned.

What Symbiotic arrangement is their that keeps a person unemployed so they can continue to have there job.

Another Quote by the Korri,
The Centrelink catch-phrase is ...

"We don't want to know what is WRONG with you ~ We want to know what is RIGHT with you ~ and give you a job according to your abilities and not your disabilities".

Well Why then is Centelink and Job networks making there own assement on there clients and suggesting that they go on DSP, they have made a WRONG Assessment.

Quote from Korri,

You simply then go with the flow.

Well I have done the Mutual obligation, its now time to Go with the flow and allow me to have employment.

FAIR is FAIR.

Warrigal ~ Centrelink has told me that you've been placed in their Hall of Fame as someone who is Teflon-coated and Anti-Magnetic to job offers.

They have installed a bust of you with a brass plate saying: "Warrigal: Fastest Sprinter When Centrelink Comes Calling with a Job Offer".

They've entered you into the 100 meter dash at Centrelink's next Olympic Games for Teflon-Coated Job-Seekers.

:D

bump

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 1^st, 2013 at 10:24am:

Warrigal ~ Centrelink has told me that you've been placed in their Hall of Fame as someone who is Teflon-coated and Anti-Magnetic to job offers. They have installed a bust of you with a brass plate saying: "Warrigal: Fastest Sprinter When Centrelink Comes Calling with a Job Offer". They've entered you into the 100 meter dash at Centrelink's next Olympic Games for Teflon-Coated Job-Seekers. :D

There have been NO Job offers you IGNORANT BASTARD, Not frpm centrelink, or the Job networks, or anyone else.

I am not on a holiday from centrelink , I am being IGNORED but centrelink at the Instigation of a JOb network.

I am not on a DSP if I where things would be greatly different.

Any more incorrect wisdom to tell the forum about me you no nothing you dumb Korri.

So stop getting stupid fckn ideas into your head Korri.

Because you wiill always be wrong.

Herbert - leave Warrigal alone - you beast.

warrigal wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:42am:

..... you IGNORANT BASTARD...

Who? ME?  :-?


warrigal wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:42am:

I am not on a DSP if I where things would be greatly different.

Well WHY don't you get yourself onto the DSP? If there's nothing physically wrong with you, then you could always try to pull a fast one by getting a doctor's certificate saying that you suffer from 'Acute Depression'.

Whole legions of bludgers ... er ... clients on the DSP are booked up as suffering from depression.

It's worth a try. See your local doctor. Pick a Chinese one ~ you might have better luck with one of these. Shop around a little for a doctor who's not too fussy to write up a Medical Exemption Report for Centrelink.


warrigal wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2013 at 6:42am:

Any more incorrect wisdom to tell the forum about me you no nothing you dumb Korri.

You INVADED my country you IGNORANT BASTARD. You haven't paid the RENT yet!  >:(

What a buggern Arshole we have here with Herbert,

He had to do a bit of Voluntary work before his old age pension and Indiginous payments came in , and now he thinks everyone one else has to do the same.

No not trained and qualified people for the job.
I have done the Voluntary and the WFD and the Mutual Obligation, now its time for Employment.

This government has to get off its ASS and make jobs available to the people in this country that need them.


The DSP thing would be ok if I were actually DISABLIED.

But I am NOT

Oh and I don;t owe a scumbag like you RENT.

warrigal wrote on Jun 6^th, 2013 at 7:17am:

Oh and I don;t owe a scumbag like you RENT.

You owe my brothers RENT for the land we used to hunt on.

AND you WHITE BASTARDS owe us a royalty for the ALCOHOL we introduced you WHITE BASTARDS to when you arrived from Britain.

You wouldn't KNOW what alcohol was if we hadn't shown YOU how to make it!

BASTARDS! >:(

Well then feel free to go hunt on the land and drink your Alcohol and DIE you IGNORANT Bastard.

So sorry, Sappho. I won't say another word here.

Me and Warrigal got carried away.

'Mutual Obligation'

What I'd like to know is WHY do these unemployed need to attend interviews with prospective employers?

In all my years I never once had to attend an interview. This must be something new.

The jobs would be advertised. You turned up at the address. First there, first served. They gave you your work clothes... and then put you onto the machine they wanted you to operate.

End of story.

Warrigal, telling people to go and die isn't really on.

I do understand your frustration, but wishing that on other members doesn't
help, and can lead to a suspension.

Let's keep it civil, shall we?


Kat.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/ruffdiamond/New%20Album/Album3/titter_zps964846e8.gif

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 7^th, 2013 at 8:50am:

So sorry, Sappho. I won't say another word here. Me and Warrigal got carried away. 'Mutual Obligation' What I'd like to know is WHY do these unemployed need to attend interviews with prospective employers? In all my years I never once had to attend an interview. This must be something new. The jobs would be advertised. You turned up at the address. First there, first served. They gave you your work clothes... and then put you onto the machine they wanted you to operate. End of story.

So in other words Herbert YOU were just given a job up untill the time you were unemployed and you were forced to Do WFD on a perminent basis beforwe your retirement, too Aboringinal welfare.

Well That exactly how this system that is run by government should BE now.

IF you are trained to work you are given employment.

When does the mutual obligation end and the respect starts.

warrigal wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

So in other words Herbert YOU were just given a job up untill the time you were unemployed and you were forced to Do WFD on a perminent basis beforwe your retirement, too Aboringinal welfare. Well That exactly how this system that is run by government should BE now. IF you are trained to work you are given employment. When does the mutual obligation end and the respect starts.

You are failing to read my lips again, Warrigal.

Forget 'the training' bullsh*t.  90% of jobs in the manufacturing industries require nothing more than that you turn up to work on time.

That's the only qualification you need.

warrigal wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

When does the mutual obligation end and the respect starts.

Every Friday they respect you at the pay office when they hand you your pay packet.

That's when the Pay Master hands you your pay-packet and sticks his head out the little window and says ... "I RESPECT you, Warrigal!!"

... and I don't doubt that's when you'll shout back at him ... "YOU AND HERBERT ARE BASTARDS!"

Isn't that right, Warrigal?  ;D ;D