freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2012 at 9:11am:| They are incapable of keeping the 1% in check. Either the 99% are not so good after all, or not 99%. |
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To be honest I'm finding these rather innane one line, one point replies of yours not at all constructive to the discussion. I feel like I'm the only one making an effort here. Your profile mentions you are an administrator on this forum - frankly I would expect better. If you want a constructive dialogue here, lets have a constructive dialogue. But for that you need to add some flesh to your replies, make them more "debatable". I'm not interested in partaking in these petty one-liner point scoring exercises, but I would love to have a proper discussion about this.
As to this particular point, yes I agree there are problems with extremists in the muslim world, but you need to put it in context. A study came out a few years ago about terrorism in Europe, and it was revealed that less than 1% of all terrorist activity - successfully carried out as well as those foiled by the authorities - were non-islamic. A similar finding was revealed in the US in a paper released by the FBI. (Still can't link urls, but they are easy enough to find on google)Muslim protests and riots that cause instant headlines in the western media are frequently carried out by just a few hundred people - an insignificant number in anyone's book. Long story short, islamic violence around the world today is not nearly as bad as the media portrays it to be.
What is significant on a relative scale, is the violence inflicted by non-muslims towards muslims. A study has just been released - which was posted here in another thread - that claims that for every taliban killed by US drones in Pakistan, 49 innocent civilians are killed. Literally thousands of innocents have died by the US attacks over the last few years - and thats not even including the many thousands more who have been killed by direct US action in Afghanistan since 2001. Then of course there's the 7 years or so of slaughter in Iraq. Of course it can be argued that the US is justified in these attacks, and these civilians are necessary collateral - but it doesn't alter the fact that many thousands of muslims have been killed by the US, and one can only imagine the resentment that this has built up within the muslim community. Again, not justifying violence and riots, but please understand the context.
The other thing is you need to acknowledge the positive, mostly unreported, ways the muslim community acts all the time in response to violence and incitement amongst their flock. It is virtually unknown, for example, that after the attack on the American embassy in Libya in which the ambassador was killed, a group of Libyans took it upon themselves to attack the militia who carried out the embassy attack, overrunning their HQ in Benghazi. They were signalling to the world that these thugs are not the real face of islam. Also, if not for Frank Lowy's acknowlegement, no one probably would have known that the islamic leaders in Australia were united in their condemnation of the riots, and successfully dissuaded muslims from holding another protest a week after the first.
Quote:| It is also at the extremity of the old empire. It works reasonably well there because the locals never 'unlearnt' coexistence like they did elsewhere. However even there they have major problems. |
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Thats a copout. The fact that the largest muslim populations are demonstrably capable of peace and stability is just be dismissed. But there are progressive elements in the middle east as well. What can't be ignored though is the active role the west has played in suppressing those progressive elements. Saudi Arabia is the centre of all islamic extremism today. [MOD: Attack on Muslim group removed]. The problem is, Saudi Arabia is a key US ally, and allowing wahabism to die a natural death is against US interests. In Iran, the current bogeyman of the west, was a progressive democracy until the 1950s when the west overthrow it, and it has never seen real democracy since. The baathists in Iraq were helped to power by the CIA. In Palestine - the grassroots democracy movements were ruthlessly quashed by the corrupt US-backed Arafat. And the list goes on. I'm not saying the muslims themselves don't share any responsibility for the problem of extremism, but the fact is the US and the west interveners had a choice between fostering democracy, and fostering autocracies - and they chose the latter. And Indonesia, since I mentioned it, the US propped up the corrupt tyrrant Suharto for around 30 years, and when they finally "allowed" him to be overthrown, the Indonesians have not looked back, and deserve the highest praise for instituting a thriving democracy in such a short time. This country, absolutely, should be held as a great example of what muslims are capable of instituting.
Quote:| Except for the occasional mass slaughter of course, and an endless succession or lesser hate crimes. |
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You're overgeneralising and not appreciating the proper context. Muslim violence against hindus pales compared to hindu violence against muslims. But even so, in the scheme of things the coexistence and harmony is the real story with Indian hindu-muslim relations, acts of violence are few and far between.
Quote:| The death penalty for things that in the west are considered fundamental human rights and no business of the government. |
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which is but a tiny aspect of shariah law. So why did you say "shariah law" in its entirety if you really only meant this tiny aspect of it? Unless you really believed shariah law was only about the death penalty? It is entirely possible to have a shariah system where the death penalty does not exist. You really should think about these sorts of things before dissemenating such overgeneralised, misinformed nonsense.
Quote:| Obviously if you say it is in the Koran and you think it is wrong |
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Stop right there, I said nothing whatsoever about right or wrong - why do you keep obsessing about this? The only thing I was arguing about is what is and what isn't in the quran - full stop.
