Thousands of Victorians die waiting for elective surgery

    Brigid O'Connell
    Herald Sun
    December 31, 2012


MORE than 3600 Victorians have died awaiting elective surgery in the past five years - many spent their final months in pain or immobile.     :(

Records obtained by the Herald Sun via Freedom of Information laws document for the first time the age and sex of each of the patients and the surgery needed.

Those who waited the longest include:

A MAN, 69, who waited 1007 days for a semi-urgent colonoscopy at Dandenong Hospital - an operation he should've had within 90 days.

A CHILD who, after waiting a year for a spinal fusion rod, died at Royal Children's Hospital on the day of treatment.

A WOMAN, 48, who died after waiting 218 days for a heart valve replacement at the Royal Melbourne Hospital. The operation should have occurred within 90 days.

The data shows more than 400 patients who died were aged under 65. The most commonly needed procedures were knee and hip replacements and bladder

The Royal Children's Hospital recorded 28 deaths since 2007. All were awaiting semi or non-urgent procedures, and were within the treatment time frame.

Elective surgery waiting lists to blow out

The youngest patients elsewhere included two 21-year-old men who needed exploratory surgery of the bladder.

One waited 96 days for a cystoscopy - six days over the target time - at Royal Melbourne Hospital.

Overall, from January, 2007, to June, 2012, patients waited the longest for knee replacements, prostatectomies, hip replacements, and operations to repair hernias.

Hospitals warn that a funding feud between State and Federal Governments could see waiting lists for less urgent elective surgery double over the next six months.

The largest number of patients who died were awaiting semi-urgent category 2 operations.

An annual average of 330 patients died awaiting surgery, including hip replacements and spinal fusions, which should have been done within 90 days.

An average of 115 people awaiting urgent category 1 operations died each year. And 270 patients needing non-urgent surgery died.     :(

Opposition health spokesman Gavin Jennings said the figures were tragic, and the Government was undoing years' investment in cutting elective surgery waiting lists.

Health Minister David Davis's spokesman said more than half those dying were awaiting surgery for non-life-threatening conditions.

"The listing of a person as having died while on the elective surgery waiting list does not mean they died from the condition for which they were awaiting surgery," she said.

Austin Health chief Dr Brendan Murphy said it couldn't be concluded that earlier surgery would have prevented these deaths.

"In the great majority of cases, deaths ... are due to causes completely unrelated to the condition awaiting surgery and more reflective of the age of the patient."


Comments

    Pensioner of Werribee Posted at 10:17 AM Today

        James of East Bentleigh, I do not know where you get your information, The deaths have occurred over the last 5 years, that is not a majority time of Labour government. Subby of Mordialloc, I have had top private health insurance all my life until the last 3 years. Now I am on a pension it was not the premiums that were of concern but the over the top out of pocket expenses the private system charged.     :(

    Fletch of Melbourne Posted at 10:17 AM Today

        Suddy of Mordialloc - Bully for your mother and in-laws being able to afford private health insurance, but not everyone can - whether on a pension or not. I suggest you stop criticising people when you are ignorant of their circumstances. Remember this - the cost of private health insurance has always been expensive even when it first started many, many years ago. I was earning a good wage when private health insurance first came into vogue BUT STILL COULD NOT AFFORD THE RATES.     :(

    pcaman2003 Posted at 10:03 AM Today

        Yep! Australia has turned into a bunch of whinging Poms. Is there nothing you people won't have a sook about these days? If you're not happy, go live in Mogadishu,or New Delhi,or Mexico city and see how much you love it there. Believe me, you have absolutely nothing to whinge about in this great country. But please, stop knocking it all the time......it's monotonous hearing your constant gripes.     :o

   

No point in even throwing more money at it as just like education it will all go to employing more people in upper management so that they can have never ending meetings and luncheons.

Innocent bystander wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 10:07am:

No point in even throwing more money at it as just like education it will all go to employing more people in upper management so that they can have never ending meetings and luncheons.

Oh dear! Magic pudding politics.

Yeah I know someone who has been on a waiting list for 2 years. Not for elective surgery but for exploratory surgery. His doctor is starting to get worried.

SOB

His doctor is getting worried! What's he got to get worried about?
There is always private health insurance. I know many people could never afford it, but then there are others who could if they gave up something else in their lives, like smoking & drinking, or an expensive car or whatever.
For every person who goes private that makes more room in the public system for those who need it.
And there are people, especially under 40, who could afford it but won't. There should be more tax pressure on them to join a fund. Again that makes room.
And of course we have the Gillard amendments which make things worse by forcing some more out of the private system. And all because they want some more bucks for the surplus that never was.
Just looking at the figures in the OP, I know I could get a hip replacement in a couple of months or less. Or a colonoscopy in weeks, urgent or not.
If you could afford it you would be crazy not to be in a health fund.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 10:18am:

Yeah I know someone who has been on a waiting list for 2 years. Not for elective surgery but for exploratory surgery. His doctor is starting to get worried. SOB

I've heard of people waiting for more than a year for a Colonoscopy after getting a positive result from a bowel screening test. Some have managed to get a loan or have been lucky enough for family to pass the hat around, others have developed stage 3 cancer whilst waiting, yet others have died. Bowel cancer is usually fast and aggressive.

I have written dozens of letters but no one seems to care, they just fob you off to another department.

The health system is in tatters.

Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians, if they get more funding they'll just get more chiefs such is the rort that free health care has become.
Doctors write their own paychecks, what a great system ... not!

anyone spot the fallacy in the first line? they didnt die FROM the wait. they died DURING the wait. By its very definition 'elective' means NOT life-threatening.

I go without for my private health cover. Perhaps some of these lazy buggers could do the same.

Innocent bystander wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 4:37pm:

Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians, if they get more funding they'll just get more chiefs such is the rort that free health care has become. Doctors write their own paychecks, what a great system ... not!

its the same as the education system. the bulk of the money goes to non-medical matters.  if you eliminated the dept of health there would be absolute chaos BUT there would be the money to pay for doctors, hospital beds and nurses.

if the choice is chaos where you get health care vs orderly denial of service...

easy choice.

If you think its bad now wait until Abbott starts cutting the guts out of public health and education.
If your child gets cancer it will be like the USA where you have to mortgage your house to pay for treatment.

You've been warned

adelcrow wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 4:58pm:

If you think its bad now wait until Abbott starts cutting the guts out of public health and education. If your child gets cancer it will be like the USA where you have to mortgage your house to pay for treatment. You've been warned

by a liar.

gold_medal wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 5:04pm:

adelcrow wrote on Dec 31st, 2012 at 4:58pm: If you think its bad now wait until Abbott starts cutting the guts out of public health and education. If your child gets cancer it will be like the USA where you have to mortgage your house to pay for treatment. You've been warned by a liar.

Abbott will be our GWBush..
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/askville/51428261_answers/1327698051802_images.jpg

adelcrow wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 4:58pm:

If you think its bad now wait until Abbott starts cutting the guts out of public health and education. If your child gets cancer it will be like the USA where you have to mortgage your house to pay for treatment. You've been warned

Yeah the signs have been there since howard. . .

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 5:06pm:

adelcrow wrote on Dec 31st, 2012 at 4:58pm: If you think its bad now wait until Abbott starts cutting the guts out of public health and education. If your child gets cancer it will be like the USA where you have to mortgage your house to pay for treatment. You've been warned Yeah the signs have been there since howard. . . SOB

Yep..all Abbotts ever done in his political life is push negativity and slash and burn public institutions..look at the billions he cut from public health when he was the minister.

adelcrow wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 4:58pm:

If you think its bad now wait until Abbott starts cutting the guts out of public health and education. If your child gets cancer it will be like the USA where you have to mortgage your house to pay for treatment. You've been warned

I know. Third world here we come.

I know people who go to Thailand for surgery, cheap with first class service and care. If it's anything like their dental, I highly recommend it, wonderful dentists and state of the art surgeries at a tenth of the price in Oz.

Too many fat ppl is why the health system is bordeing on collapse, if ppl ate properly excercised a bit they wouldn't weigh 120Kg+ and blow out hips knees, get diabetes bowell issues blood pressure issues heart isses strokes or circulatory issues.

Ppls stupidity and laziness is their doing and their own worst enemies??

All the Libbo states are slashing public health and when Abbott becomes supreme leader anyone with a chronic illness will be selling their house and all their belongings just to get in line for treatment. Just pray none of your kids get a life threatening illness like cancer because you wont have a hope in hell of getting them into a public hospital for treatment.
Lets hope you're all prepared for the brave new world according to Phony Tony  ;D

population reduction is also part of agenda 21 so this reduction in health services only goes toward the plan of less ppl????????

Blame whoever signed us up to be in the useless UN

woof woof wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 6:57pm:

Too many fat ppl is why the health system is bordeing on collapse, if ppl ate properly excercised a bit they wouldn't weigh 120Kg+ and blow out hips knees, get diabetes bowell issues blood pressure issues heart isses strokes or circulatory issues. Ppls stupidity and laziness is their doing and their own worst enemies??

Nope. You cant blame a small segment of society. Last year it was the smokers. Its the governments (all of them) and in particular the states.

SOB

Both Spot and Imcro have touched on the solution to this in other threads: just pay the medical staff penalty rates... and work 'em round the clock.

The Heartless Felon wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 5:38am:

Both Spot and Imcro have touched on the solution to this in other threads: just pay the medical staff penalty rates... and work 'em round the clock.

actually quite interesting that because they are always running over budget, the opposite is often the case.
overtime bans and doctors wanting to do operations at the end of lists but being told NO by management so that budgets can be met.

adel is wrong trying to scare people about kids with cancer.  these services are always extremely well funded.

there is a certain ammount of politicial interference in health which the public should probably be aware of.

high profile diseases liek breast cancer have much shorter waits than prostate cancer.
heart (probably because heart = life in many peoples minds ) has excellent funding.
in fact there is no reason to have private health to recieve excellent treatment for heart attacks.

the big waits are for the common elective conditions such as cataracts, hip and knee replacements, kids ent, hernias,
backs , varicose veins.etc

obviously a lot of 80 year olds awaiting cataracts will die of a heart attack, so the figures are a bit wishy washy.

hadrian_now wrote on Dec 31^st, 2012 at 1:34pm:

His doctor is getting worried! What's he got to get worried about?

You have to be joking since nobody can be that stupid. Obviously he is worried because he hasnt had the tests done and he could die if its something serious.

SOB

aquascoot wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 5:51am:

The Heartless Felon wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 5:38am: Both Spot and Imcro have touched on the solution to this in other threads: just pay the medical staff penalty rates... and work 'em round the clock. actually quite interesting that because they are always running over budget, the opposite is often the case. overtime bans and doctors wanting to do operations at the end of lists but being told NO by management so that budgets can be met. adel is wrong trying to scare people about kids with cancer.  these services are always extremely well funded. there is a certain ammount of politicial interference in health which the public should probably be aware of. high profile diseases liek breast cancer have much shorter waits than prostate cancer. heart (probably because heart = life in many peoples minds ) has excellent funding. in fact there is no reason to have private health to recieve excellent treatment for heart attacks. the big waits are for the common elective conditions such as cataracts, hip and knee replacements, kids ent, hernias, backs , varicose veins.etc obviously a lot of 80 year olds awaiting cataracts will die of a heart attack, so the figures are a bit wishy washy.

And all the "oscopies". Colonoscopy laparoscopy endoscopy etc. . . . these can be detrimental to ppls health. They should not be classified as "elective".

SOB

Spot, do us all a favour and turn yourself into the RSPCA...

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 6:25am:

And all the "oscopies". Colonoscopy laparoscopy endoscopy etc. . . . these can be detrimental to ppls health. They should not be classified as "elective".

Qld Health, now District Health or something have a list of operations and procedures, all these have best practice time frames of when they should be carried out. The waiting period falls well outside of the standards they set themselves. This is seriously wrong. I bet the waiting periods don't improve with all Campbell Newman's cutting measures either.

He's going for a surplus, but it won't do much good for deceased Queenslander's, will it?  People should not be dying in 2013 Australia because they can't get a simple procedure done in a timely fashion.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 6:25am:

aquascoot wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 5:51am: The Heartless Felon wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 5:38am: Both Spot and Imcro have touched on the solution to this in other threads: just pay the medical staff penalty rates... and work 'em round the clock. actually quite interesting that because they are always running over budget, the opposite is often the case. overtime bans and doctors wanting to do operations at the end of lists but being told NO by management so that budgets can be met. adel is wrong trying to scare people about kids with cancer.  these services are always extremely well funded. there is a certain ammount of politicial interference in health which the public should probably be aware of. high profile diseases liek breast cancer have much shorter waits than prostate cancer. heart (probably because heart = life in many peoples minds ) has excellent funding. in fact there is no reason to have private health to recieve excellent treatment for heart attacks. the big waits are for the common elective conditions such as cataracts, hip and knee replacements, kids ent, hernias, backs , varicose veins.etc obviously a lot of 80 year olds awaiting cataracts will die of a heart attack, so the figures are a bit wishy washy. And all the "oscopies". Colonoscopy laparoscopy endoscopy etc. . . . these can be detrimental to ppls health. They should not be classified as "elective". SOB

well no, 
the gastroenterologists would read the referals in the public system and then classify them as category 1 thru 5.
hospitals lose funding if they dont see category 1 and 2 within certain periods of time.

so a person with blood in their bowels and mucus, weight loss and a palpable lump would go 1 and should be seen within 30 days.

a young woman with bloating and cramps and not much esle may go 4 or 5 and may not be seen for a year.

but again innocent bystander and gold medal are correct.
too many chiefs and clerks and bean counters.

so lets say a farmer from western qld is put in category 3. he gets an appointment date. he organizes his cattle, he gets someone in to run his farm, he gets overnite accomadation booked in bribane.

then he drives 700 miles and is told, sorry mate, a category 1 patient (maybe someone with a bleeding ulcer) has come in last nite and taken your spot.

for the inconvenience factor alone of this happening ( and due to clerks rearranging things to fit budgets it is becoming increasingly common ) leads to terrible inefficiencies and waste.

its the reason i would tell someone,  look mate cough up the $500 and go private. its quicker (usually) but its also the case that the doctors run the private hospitals and the staff serve them.

the bureacrats run the public hospitals and the doctors serve them.

one reason why i am fairly opposed to the greens and labours ideological push to always favour funding thru a public health framework.

The Heartless Felon wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 7:11am:

Spot, do us all a favour and turn yourself into the RSPCA...

Do you disagree with me or something?

SOB

Its a lot more than $500.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 7:57am:

Its a lot more than $500. SOB

$175 and you get micro chipped and desexed as well..I reckon that will be a pretty good deal when Abbott gets a hold of public hospitals

adelcrow wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 7:58am:

I reckon that will be a pretty good deal when Abbott gets a hold of public hospitals

This is part of the problem also, the politicization of health, its used as a poltical battle ground so we never really get a true picture of whats going on behind the scenes, only political propaganda which always wins over, just like with the climate change rubbish.

You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night.

We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year.

John Smith wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 10:08am:

You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night. We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year.

well said. Our public health system may be crappy at times but it is vastly better than almost every other country's system.

John Smith wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 10:08am:

You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night. We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year.

So because some other countries have worse hospitals we should put up with dying on waiting lists? And be grateful for it?

SOB

This is not "if you look hard enough".

Why compare us to third world? You guys are always happy to settle for crap. Compare us to first world, a Scandinavian country for example. I'm sure they have their problems in other western countries, there's never enough money, but we should strive for better.

Some people couldn't bare to watch it because the truth is scary and shameful. I watched it in 2010 and it stuck with me for all that time. If I couldn't afford to go private I would be saving to go to SE Asia for treatment, but unfortunately not everyone can do that either.

Insight Part 1,2 and 3.

It's an eye opener. If you settle for these standards, you should be ashamed of yourself.



http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/watchonline/187/Fixing-Hospitals

John Smith wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 10:08am:

We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year.

Aussie! Aussie! Aussie! Oi! Oi! Oi!

You need to travel more John.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 10:56am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:08am: You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night. We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year. So because some other countries have worse hospitals we should put up with dying on waiting lists? And be grateful for it? SOB

'perspective' is a big people word. LOOK IT UP or get someone to explain it to you.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 11:21am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:08am: We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year. Aussie! Aussie! Aussie! Oi! Oi! Oi! You need to travel more John.

you need to used balanced viewpoints. you sound like rustynail with his incessant criticisms of australia and saying how country A is better because of ONE aspect. eg Singapore. got a lot going for it but you dont want to get in trouble with eh police because justice is a different animal there. Guilt is an assumption and evidence is of lesser import. And dont try and be an opposition politician either because you have a habit of ending up in hospital, jail or a cemetery.

but it does have great braodband so that excuses it right?

Scandinavia has a good health system but the weather...? and of course it has taxes doube our ans then some.

australia has its problems but we arent in the top 3 destinations for people for no reason.

yes it is a fairly good system.
it faces some shocking problems in the next 20 years or so as it is not going to cope with the demographics of aging boomers and massive increases in diabetes due to obesity and diet.

the money is not spent wisely in many cases and this is due to unrealistic public expectations.

there will always be health rationing and there will always be areas that miss out.

i would think it would be wiser to invest some of the money spent on prolonging end of life in hsopital (by overtreating and investigating the obviously dying) and re invest that money in younger people and preventative health.

as innocent bystander points out, in a politicized health system this is difficult. no politician wants to be seen limiting spending on 85 year old grandma with dementia and denying her that $30,000 hip replacement.
but , in the interests of common sense, that hip should go to the functioning 60 year old who will get years of relief from it.
a difficult ethical debate, but one a brave politician should start.

aquascoot wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 11:59am:

yes it is a fairly good system. it faces some shocking problems in the next 20 years or so as it is not going to cope with the demographics of aging boomers and massive increases in diabetes due to obesity and diet. the money is not spent wisely in many cases and this is due to unrealistic public expectations. there will always be health rationing and there will always be areas that miss out. i would think it would be wiser to invest some of the money spent on prolonging end of life in hsopital (by overtreating and investigating the obviously dying) and re invest that money in younger people and preventative health. as innocent bystander points out, in a politicized health system this is difficult. no politician wants to be seen limiting spending on 85 year old grandma with dementia and denying her that $30,000 hip replacement. but , in the interests of common sense, that hip should go to the functioning 60 year old who will get years of relief from it. a difficult ethical debate, but one a brave politician should start.

it is the worst possible thing you can do. Because once you start down that route you end up in a situration where you value the WORTH of a person to society before givein them treatment. so do we deny treatement to homeless or menatlly ill or the unemployed and unemployable (like prevailing and imfullofit? it isnt just an ethics debate. it is also a pragmatic one becaue the simplest and most effective means f solving the health funding problem is the ration treatment out to those that deserve it ratehr than those that need it. do you really want that? do you want to have to justify the cost-benefit analyis of that heart bypass of yours? how would you do that at 70yo and on the pension?

gold . i can see your point but let me give you quite a common scenario.

a homeless alcoholic with no next of kin will fall over and crack his skull and has a deep brain bleed

now here is a guy society has absolutely and totally ignored , except perhaps the salvos ;).
now he will arrive in casualty and the doctors will know that he is going to be a vegetable after checking the scans.
he will then be transferred to an ICU where he may well last a few weeks and will have maybe $50,000 spent on him (of which he is totally unaware as he is in a coma).

now wouldnt it have been more sensible to spend that $50,000 on him to provide him with some of the basics like food and shelter.
i have trouble understanding how the current system is sensible in this regard and i think the public need to be involved in a debate on if they want spending early on "quality of life" or late on "prolonging life"  its a difficult question.

aquascoot wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 12:13pm:

gold . i can see your point but let me give you quite a common scenario. a homeless alcoholic with no next of kin will fall over and crack his skull and has a deep brain bleed now here is a guy society has absolutely and totally ignored , except perhaps the salvos ;). now he will arrive in casualty and the doctors will know that he is going to be a vegetable after checking the scans. he will then be transferred to an ICU where he may well last a few weeks and will have maybe $50,000 spent on him (of which he is totally unaware as he is in a coma). now wouldnt it have been more sensible to spend that $50,000 on him to provide him with some of the basics like food and shelter. i have trouble understanding how the current system is sensible in this regard and i think the public need to be involved in a debate on if they want spending early on "quality of life" or late on "prolonging life"  its a difficult question.

i would oppose that to my last breath. it all sounds nice and good when you are young and heathly but when you are older...?  not so happy, wondering if some 25yo doctor is going to determine if you live or die. or your estranged family etc.

we value all life or we diminish everyone. the right to life it THE PRE-EMINENT human right. when we screw around with that, we devalue the rest of our rights as well. The homeless man deserves the same treatment that a PM does and one thing about Australia that has set us apart from so many other countries is that IS how we treat people.

while pansi is off lauding Thai hospitals she conveniently forgets that they treat those who can pay - and no one else. thousands die on the roads outside those hospitals because they cannot afford to pay. is that really the state we want to acheive?

Seriously - has gold medal forgotten to drink today? He is actually making sense for the first time ever.

Except the bit about pansi. Had to be some venom in there huh.

SOB

very good reply, has given me something to think about.

aquascoot wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 12:37pm:

very good reply, has given me something to think about.

thats all I ask. What must always be remembered is that what we do now establishes precedence for the future. Thats why we must not even head in a DIRECTION that has some distance away, a destination not intended and thoroughly detestable.

longy

while pansi is off lauding Thai hospitals she conveniently forgets that they treat those who can pay - and no one else. thousands die on the roads outside those hospitals because they cannot afford to pay. is that really the state we want to acheive?
.........................................................................

I wasn't comparing their health care system to ours, was I? You always manage to get thinks screwed up.

I said, rather than waiting in the lengthy queue here, it is better to find an Asian country that has good health care at a much more reasonable price compared to our private hospitals, for those who can rake up the money of course.

Its the victims of Government social Darwinist policies...the pacifists, the disadvantaged who suffer the most...They deliberately and maliciously target and punish us because of who we are... :(

Its important for everybody who is victimized by Government ideology and Policy because of who they are to document everything, record it and file it.  Whatever Key politicians, Media and Business sources are saying that may impact you.... :)

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 10:56am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:08am: You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night. We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year. So because some other countries have worse hospitals we should put up with dying on waiting lists? And be grateful for it? SOB

no, you should recognise the fact that we could be a lot worse .. it will never be a perfect system, and guess what? people die .... and will continue to do so .. a little perspective is to much to ask of you SOB?

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 11:21am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:08am: We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year. Aussie! Aussie! Aussie! Oi! Oi! Oi! You need to travel more John.

I've actually done a bit of travel ...

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 11:17am:

This is not "if you look hard enough". Why compare us to third world? You guys are always happy to settle for crap. Compare us to first world, a Scandinavian country for example. I'm sure they have their problems in other western countries, there's never enough money, but we should strive for better. Some people couldn't bare to watch it because the truth is scary and shameful. I watched it in 2010 and it stuck with me for all that time. If I couldn't afford to go private I would be saving to go to SE Asia for treatment, but unfortunately not everyone can do that either. Insight Part 1,2 and 3. It's an eye opener. If you settle for these standards, you should be ashamed of yourself. http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/watchonline/187/Fixing-Hospitals

Scandinavia? not sure what you went to hospital for or even in which scandinavian country, but I'd say even the buggerofistanis can pull a splinter out of you finger and do it of a sufficient standard . ....I found standards in Norway sorely lacking ... a close family member in Norway broke an ankle, clean snap (slipped on ice) ..the surgeon in Norway had to operate 3 times (over 18 months) before he figured out what straight was, he kept setting it incorrectly .... you can look at any health system and find fault .. it's a lot easier trying to accommodate 4 million people spread over an area the size of some Aussie farms ... different story when its 20 million spread across a continent ....

It the poor who are victims of the labor party, they only Govern for the middle class...we should all punish them and vote for Abbott... :P :P

corporate_whitey wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 8:15pm:

It the poor who are victims of the labor party, they only Govern for the middle class...we should all punish them and vote for Abbott... :P :P

so vote liberal ... Abbott will look after you I'm sure!

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 10:56am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:08am: You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night. We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year. So because some other countries have worse hospitals we should put up with dying on waiting lists? And be grateful for it? SOB

thats an interesting comment, your saying that even though our health system isn't as bad as others we shouldn't have to put up with it, yet when it comes to national debt you say ours is not as bad as others so we are OK?????

John Smith wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 8:58pm:

corporate_whitey wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 8:15pm: It the poor who are victims of the labor party, they only Govern for the middle class...we should all punish them and vote for Abbott... :P :P so vote liberal ... Abbott will look after you I'm sure!

Labor does not deserve the vote of the poor, the pacifists, the  disadvantaged and marginalized.  they are only out for the middle class so we should switch our vote..our fight is not dependent on those parties..We only have our own resources and whits to defend ourselves.  Fecjk off labor..get to the sh1thouse you Nazi swine.. :)

John Smith wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 7:57pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:56am: John Smith wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:08am: You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night. We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year. So because some other countries have worse hospitals we should put up with dying on waiting lists? And be grateful for it? SOB no, you should recognise the fact that we could be a lot worse .. it will never be a perfect system, and guess what? people die .... and will continue to do so .. a little perspective is to much to ask of you SOB?

Perhaps it is you that lacks perspective. I know someone on a waiting list like i said before and they could die. Would you be talking about "perspective" if someone you knew was on there?

SOB

woof woof wrote on Jan 1^st, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:56am: John Smith wrote on Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:08am: You can bitch and moan about our health system, and sure, you can find faults in it if you look hard enough, but I have to say we have one of the best health systems in the world and all in all we do a pretty good job.  To many aussies have only ever seen our system and therefore whinge, but to get a more rounded view I think you need to look at some of the hospital systems in some overseas countries. I remember i saw in one country a old coke bottle locked behind a glass cabinet full of white fluid. There was no other label apart from the coke label. When I enquired about it I was told it was some sort of medicine for the patients (nurse didn't know what it was).  I've seen where they lock bars of soap in display cabinets (same hospital) because they didn't want the locals stealing them and they needed to ensure they has some soap for the doctor to wash his hands. My wife spent one night in this hospital on what was supposed to be a 5 day stay, and she snuck out after the first night. We have a lot to be grateful for, sure its not perfect, but I'll take our system over any other in the world any day of the year. So because some other countries have worse hospitals we should put up with dying on waiting lists? And be grateful for it? SOB thats an interesting comment, your saying that even though our health system isn't as bad as others we shouldn't have to put up with it, yet when it comes to national debt you say ours is not as bad as others so we are OK?????

Link to where I have ever even mentioned national debt.

SOB