http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/our-carbon-tax-is-uniquely-costly/story-e6frgd0x-1226511761770

ACCORDING to ALP backbencher Andrew Leigh, "the Australian carbon price is quite typical of international schemes". Let us take one of the examples he used on this page earlier in the week --New Zealand -- and compare that claim with reality.

The starting point is that the Australian system charges $23 a tonne and raises about $9 billion a year. According to Treasury's latest forecast, released only last week, this will rise to $29 a tonne in three years and to $37 a tonne in 2020 before soaring to $350 a tonne by 2050. The $23 price alone has been the main factor in Australia's highest quarterly electricity price rises.

New Zealand's present carbon price is equivalent to $1.11 a tonne of CO2. So our scheme is over 20 times more expensive per tonne of emissions. The NZ scheme notionally covers half of the country's emissions, but each permit is offered on a two-for-one basis, so New Zealanders pay for only 25 per cent of their emissions. This is what is happening elsewhere in the world. No one else is making people pay for the bulk of their emissions. Governments have basically given firms their present emissions entitlement, with a little bit of trading on the margin.

On top of the fact New Zealanders have to pay for only 25 per cent of their permits, they can purchase unlimited quantities of cheap UN carbon offset permits.

Beyond New Zealand, the European scheme is in near collapse because of a huge over-allocation of free permits. Essentially there is a glut and no one wants to pay higher electricity prices to fix that glut.

In the US, the one certainty from the election is that neither candidate will go anywhere near a carbon tax. The idea of putting up, rather than pushing down, electricity and gas prices is pure political poison. In Canada, the centre-left Liberal Party was all but obliterated in an election that was a referendum on a Canadian carbon tax, and Japan has deferred any carbon tax indefinitely.

China is going through the greatest growth in coal consumption in history. It recently almost doubled the projected increase in coal usage. In 2002, Chinese coal consumption was 1.4 billion tonnes. It has long been Beijing's policy that this would reach four billion tonnes a year by 2015 before flattening out. However, in a speech strangely ignored by the ALP, China's Wu Yin, of the National Energy Administration, said in May that his country's coal consumption would grow to 7.5 billion tonnes by 2030.

In terms of emissions, this growth is the one fact the world needs to know. It is not a criticism of China, which is going through the great historic task of development, electrification and bringing more people out of poverty than at any time in history. But it is a reality check on a grand scale. A few micro carbon trading schemes that may tax only the lightest portion of emissions means little in the face of the greatest rise in coal consumption in history.

http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/reutersnews/1.2227813

LONDON, March 19 (Reuters) - The European Union sold 4.451 million spot EU carbon permits from the third phase (2013-2020) of its emissions trading scheme on EEX at 3.33 euros ($4.32) a tonne each on Tuesday, traders said.

Yes but Juliar can feel warm and fuzzy when she has her chardonnay comrades over for drinkies with Timmy....

I'd rather live in Australia than all the countries you have mentioned Maqqa..how about you?

adelcrow wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

I'd rather live in Australia than all the countries you have mentioned Maqqa..how about you?

so screwing up is okay as long as we are still better? how precisely do u think we got to be in the world-best position? it certainly wasn't by simply ensuring we do better than a mob of scrubbers.

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 3:24pm:

adelcrow wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 2:53pm: I'd rather live in Australia than all the countries you have mentioned Maqqa..how about you? so screwing up is okay as long as we are still better? how precisely do u think we got to be in the world-best position? it certainly wasn't by simply ensuring we do better than a mob of scrubbers.

So...where is Tony going to get the taxpayers money to fund his schemes to bring green house gases down by the same level as the Labor Party?
We know he has the same targets so without a price on carbon how is he going to fund it and how will he compensate all the businesses and farmers that are doing very well under the current package.

adelcrow wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 3:27pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:24pm: adelcrow wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 2:53pm: I'd rather live in Australia than all the countries you have mentioned Maqqa..how about you? so screwing up is okay as long as we are still better? how precisely do u think we got to be in the world-best position? it certainly wasn't by simply ensuring we do better than a mob of scrubbers. So...where is Tony going to get the taxpayers money to fund his schemes to bring green house gases down by the same level as the Labor Party? We know he has the same targets so without a price on carbon how is he going to fund it and how will he compensate all the businesses and farmers that are doing very well under the current package.

he'll repeal the CT and put nothing in its place. its all just a plan to fool morons like you who live the ACC fantasy. we will al lbe better off financially, power prices will drop and temperatures will do just what they have done for the past 17 years. NOTHING.

Quote:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop

I call BULLSH!T

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 3:54pm:

Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T

Price rises of Groceries (per ABS) as a result of CT - $10 per week
Compensation to families - $0.05 per week

Now I call THAT Bullsh*t.....

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 3:58pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T Price rises of Groceries (per ABS) as a result of CT - $10 per week Compensation to families - $0.05 per week Now I call THAT Bullsh*t.....

I don't care

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 4:02pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:58pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T Price rises of Groceries (per ABS) as a result of CT - $10 per week Compensation to families - $0.05 per week Now I call THAT Bullsh*t..... I don't care

And it is that attitude that has led to the Labor Party about to be decimated at the polls and the Greens dropping out of sight too.

Not caring about the people and ignoring them.

Sooner or later, that attitude catches up with you,

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 4:03pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 4:02pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:58pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T Price rises of Groceries (per ABS) as a result of CT - $10 per week Compensation to families - $0.05 per week Now I call THAT Bullsh*t..... I don't care And it is that attitude that has led to the Labor Party about to be decimated at the polls and the Greens dropping out of sight too. Not caring about the people and ignoring them. Sooner or later, that attitude catches up with you,

PSML ;D

You don't think the people's perception that the carbon tax is a lie and that they have carried on and forced it through the parliament is remotely related to Labor's polling??

Really?
Honestly?

adelcrow wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 3:27pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:24pm: adelcrow wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 2:53pm: I'd rather live in Australia than all the countries you have mentioned Maqqa..how about you? so screwing up is okay as long as we are still better? how precisely do u think we got to be in the world-best position? it certainly wasn't by simply ensuring we do better than a mob of scrubbers. So...where is Tony going to get the taxpayers money to fund his schemes to bring green house gases down by the same level as the Labor Party? We know he has the same targets so without a price on carbon how is he going to fund it and how will he compensate all the businesses and farmers that are doing very well under the current package.

The issue of "I'd rather live in Australia" is not the point of discussion in this thread

The issue is Gillard is pricing Carbon astronomically high compared to Europe and insanely high compared to NZ

My preference is for Australia to walk away from Kyoto

adelcrow wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

I'd rather live in Australia than all the countries you have mentioned Maqqa..how about you?

Well of the countries on the list in which I have lived, I rank in this order of preference -

1. United States
2. Great Britain
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Austria

3rd.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 4:08pm:

You don't think the people's perception that the carbon tax is a lie and that they have carried on and forced it through the parliament is remotely related to Labor's polling??

The voting public would have loved everything the gillard government has ever done and voted her back in on a land slide if it wasn't for the evil media twisting everything around http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/ImaPoser.gif

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 3:54pm:

Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T

its easy enough to legislate a drop in prices comparable to that which the CT is admitted to have added. it might not be popular but it not fiscally irresponsible and does not really cost power companies anything.

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 4:49pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T its easy enough to legislate a drop in prices comparable to that which the CT is admitted to have added. it might not be popular but it not fiscally irresponsible and does not really cost power companies anything.

A government legislating free market prices?
Sounds like socialism to me ;)

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 5:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 4:49pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T its easy enough to legislate a drop in prices comparable to that which the CT is admitted to have added. it might not be popular but it not fiscally irresponsible and does not really cost power companies anything. A government legislating free market prices? Sounds like socialism to me ;)

Prices will drop if Abbott plans on ruining the economy but if he plans on massive economic and jobs growth even though the rest of the world is in and out of recession prices will rise.
So the answer is..yes power prices will fall if we collapse into another Great Depression and commodity prices collapse but otherwise they will continue to rise as they have always done.

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 4:49pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T its easy enough to legislate a drop in prices comparable to that which the CT is admitted to have added. it might not be popular but it not fiscally irresponsible and does not really cost power companies anything.

Me thinks you're a Communist  :D

Could this be the reason NZ prices are low?

Fri Nov 2, 2012

"New Zealand's scheme is the only national programme that allows polluters to meet all emissions obligations with U.N.-backed carbon offsets. Europe and Australia have imposed strict limits on the use of U.N. offsets.

The U.N. offsets, called Certified Emission Reductions (CERs) hit all-time lows last week, touching 71 euro cents a tonne on limited European demand due to the economic crisis. CERs have fallen from around 13 euros in June last year."

Unlimited imports of the offsets have driven the price of NZUs to NZ$2.50 ($2.06) a tonne, down from NZ$20 18 months ago.

:)

The Carbon Tax is knobbling this Country, it is crippling and has already killed off many Australian businesses.

It is an utter fraud and is a crock of sh.t.

I can't wait, literally can't wait to see Abbott kill off this obscene bullsh.t tax. Too bad so many Australians have had to lose their jobs with companies already walking a fine line being killed off by this bunch of crap.

I'm sure Gillard will depart crying for them as she pockets $457,000 a year compliments of the public.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 3:58pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T Price rises of Groceries (per ABS) as a result of CT - $10 per week Compensation to families - $0.05 per week Now I call THAT Bullsh*t.....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/climate-change/food-prices/

Wow you must buy a lot of food to get $10 increase, fat much?

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 4:49pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:54pm: Quote: longweekend58 wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:53pm: power prices will drop I call BULLSH!T its easy enough to legislate a drop in prices comparable to that which the CT is admitted to have added. it might not be popular but it not fiscally irresponsible and does not really cost power companies anything.

Well may he will, maybe he won't. At the moment it appears it's another policy to not have a policy.
and what's he going to do once people keep to their electricity use and the price rises continue above inflation year on year on year on year? How will you whinge then?

red baron wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

The Carbon Tax is knobbling this Country, it is crippling and has already killed off many Australian businesses. It is an utter fraud and is a crock of sh.t. I can't wait, literally can't wait to see Abbott kill off this obscene bullsh.t tax. Too bad so many Australians have had to lose their jobs with companies already walking a fine line being killed off by this bunch of crap. I'm sure Gillard will depart crying for them as she pockets $457,000 a year compliments of the public.

More baseless lies.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 4:18pm:

adelcrow wrote on Mar 20th, 2013 at 2:53pm: I'd rather live in Australia than all the countries you have mentioned Maqqa..how about you? Well of the countries on the list in which I have lived, I rank in this order of preference - 1. United States 2. Great Britain 3. Australia 4. Canada 5. Austria 3rd.

who gives a sh it what you prefer? You don't actually believe your opinion matters do you? Where is USA or GB rank on ANY of the global surveys?

BELOW AUSTRALIA

This one is just an example, there are many to chose from , ALL have AUstralia ahead of GB and USA.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Table1.pdf

red baron wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

The Carbon Tax is knobbling this Country, it is crippling and has already killed off many Australian businesses.

No it isn't.  Stop making things up


red baron wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

It is an utter fraud and is a crock of sh.t.

No - it is a legitimate cost on pollution.




red baron wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

I can't wait, literally can't wait to see Abbott kill off this obscene bullsh.t tax.

Abbott will not "kill off" anything - don't be so gullible.  Even Abbott is not so stupid to place Australia even further behind the rest of the world when it comes to carbon pricing.  Paying for pollution is here to stay.  Get over it.

Not that Abbott could do anything about it anyway.  Even if he does win the election - he will not control the Senate.

red baron wrote on Mar 20^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

Too bad so many Australians have had to lose their jobs with companies already walking a fine line being killed off by this bunch of crap.

Stop making nonsense up.
Tony has been lying to you.

Whyalla is still on the map.
A leg of lamb does not cost $100.
You have been fooled.
Grow up and stop being so gullible.



THE carbon tax has boosted the cost of living scarcely at all. Despite dire talk of an "almost unimaginable" increase (Tony Abbott) and $100 for a Sunday roast (Barnaby Joyce) the first official consumer price figures show a far lower impact than predicted by the Treasury.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/impact-of-carbon-tax-lower-than-predicted-20121024-285us.html#ixzz2O5Jlz1aW