Prove what mainstream Islam teaches it's followers about violence without any reference to Muhammed, the Koran or Hadeeth, without any reference to what Muslims have said about Islam on this forum, without any reference to Muslim leaders being exposed in the media promoting violence, and without going into any specifics about how the violence is promoted or what sort of violence is promoted. You may only use forums, blogs and opinion pieces that Gandalf approves of as representative of mainstream Islam.

To keep Brian happy to have to interject on a regular basis with criticism of Christianity. Failure to do so proves you are doing exactly the same thing as what you accuse Muslims of.

www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1367633212/126#126

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 12:37pm:

Prove what mainstream Islam teaches it's followers about violence without any reference to Muhammed, the Koran or Hadeeth

Prove what mainstream *MUSLIMS* teach their followers *TODAY* about violence without any reference to Muhammad, the Quran etc

Thats a perfectly reasonable statement.

Or to take a slightly different angle:

Prove that your version of violence and intolerance in islamic doctrine is the same version believed and promoted by mainstream muslims

Can you explain the distinction you are making between mainstream Islam and what mainstream *MUSLIMS* teach their followers *TODAY* without undermining your own argument?

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

Can you explain the distinction you are making between mainstream Islam and what mainstream *MUSLIMS* teach their followers *TODAY* without undermining your own argument?

I don't believe I ever made such a distinction.

If my position wasn't clear before that I was only ever referring to muslims by reference to "mainstream islam" - then consider this clarified now.

Whenever I have specifically referred to islamic texts in the past, I believe I have gone out of my way to make this abundantly clear - by referring to them as "islamic doctrine" or "islamic jurprudence" or "islamic law" etc.

Quote:

I don't believe I ever made such a distinction.

Yet you follow this up by making the distinction yet again:


Quote:

If my position wasn't clear before that I was only ever referring to muslims by reference to "mainstream islam" - then consider this clarified now.

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:26pm:

Yet you follow this up by making the distinction yet again:

Well I assume you are referring to my description of "mainstream islam" in this thread - during which the whole time I was only ever debating what muslims say, not their texts. If this is not what you are referring to, then please clarify.

I don't believe I have ever referred to islamic texts as "mainstream islam" - thats my point.

Quote:

I don't believe I have ever referred to islamic texts as "mainstream islam"

Why not? Is this like someone saying they would never refer to the Bible as mainstream Christianity?

I wouldn't refer to the bible as "mainstream christianity" either. I would refer to it as "chrstian doctrine".

So how does "mainstream Islam" differ from "Islamic doctrine"?

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 5:23pm:

So how does "mainstream Islam" differ from "Islamic doctrine"?

I don't believe they do differ fundamentally. I believe the doctrine to be a model of justice and compassion and morality - and I believe 'mainstream islam' - or the majority of muslims - strive to emulate this model. But of course muslims are only human, so there will be flaws.

Is there some kind of universal, collective flaw, or are you suggesting many minor individual flaws? That is, can you explain how "mainstream Islam" differs from "Islamic doctrine" unfundamentally?

Is your other thread basically asking about Islamic doctrine, but demanding an absurdly nebulous method of evidence?

humans are flawed - get it?

My other thread was not about islamic doctrine - I only emphasised that about a billion times.

Is there actually a point to all this?

Originally my point was just to mock the absurd demands you were making of everyone. It is quite a turnaround from when you first turned up and insisted everyone learn arabic and go back to the original source before they were allowed to comment on Islam.

But now I would like to know why you think we would get a different answer if we focussed on what mainstream Muslims teach about Islam vs what mainstream Islam teaches. If they are the same thing, why reject one? It puts you in the absurd position of rejecting the Koran as evidence, but accepting Muslims quoting the Koran as evidence, so long as you approve of them as mainstream Muslims.

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

Originally my point was just to mock the absurd demands you were making of everyone. It is quite a turnaround from when you first turned up and insisted everyone learn arabic and go back to the original source before they were allowed to comment on Islam.

for commenting on islamic doctrine - yes, not for commenting on what muslims actually say and do - out there in the community.


freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

But now I would like to know why you think we would get a different answer if we focussed on what mainstream Muslims teach about Islam vs what mainstream Islam teaches. If they are the same thing, why reject one?

Who is rejecting one? Where on earth did you get that idea??

Are you honestly that confused by this incredibly simple concept - that a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do is *NOT* a discussion on what you think you know about islamic texts - and a discussion on islamic texts is *NOT* a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do?


freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:41pm:

It puts you in the absurd position of rejecting the Koran as evidence, but accepting Muslims quoting the Koran as evidence, so long as you approve of them as mainstream Muslims.

You are one confused puppy.

Quote:

Are you honestly that confused by this incredibly simple concept - that a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do is *NOT* a discussion on what you think you know about islamic texts - and a discussion on islamic texts is *NOT* a discussion on what muslims believe, say and do?

I have never based my arguments on what I think I know about the Koran. I have always asked Muslims. Malik and Abu actually changed my views on a lot of issues to do with Islam.

I think that Islamic texts are a great starting point in any discussion on what Muslims believe. Any suggestion that we should attempt to generalise on what mainstream Muslims believe without reference to Islamic texts is absurd. Any attempt to do so without reference to specific methods or rules of violence is absurd. What they do may well be a different matter, but we can all see what they do.

I have actually found Muslims to be remarkably consistent on the issues that I am interested in, once you get past the different ways they spin it. I don't exactly have a list, but the only big issue I recall you differing with Abu on is the death penalty for apostasy.

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 7:31pm:

I think that Islamic texts are a great starting point in any discussion on what Muslims believe.

Personally, when I'm dealing with people who start from the premise that islamic texts are all about promoting pedophilia and rape and warmongering etc - these are the *WORST* places to start in any discussion on what muslims believe. Thats why I started the thread - an attempt to extract from the critics not how they think mainstream muslims *SHOULD* be behaving, but how they actually *DO* behave.

I did not start with that premise. I started with the opposite premise.

Muhammed did marry a six year old girl. He did excuse a bloke who beat his wife until her skin was green with bruises. He did slaughter Jews as collective punishment. He did permit sex slavery and rape. He did build one of the most successful militant empires in history. Modern mainstream Islamic representative bodies may not issue press releases announcing these things, but it is still pretty hard to separate them from Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 5:23pm: So how does "mainstream Islam" differ from "Islamic doctrine"? I don't believe they do differ fundamentally. I believe the doctrine to be a model of justice and compassion and morality - and I believe 'mainstream islam' - or the majority of muslims - strive to emulate this model. But of course muslims are only human, so there will be flaws.

ISLAM is NOT a viable system for harmonious human living.

And please, gandalf, forget about referring us to the supposed ISLAMIC 'golden age'.  [....which in reality, only ever was an example of moslem historic revisionism]


TODAY

If ISLAM as system for human living is, "a model of justice and compassion and morality", please point to where that example is - in the world today.

Where is this human utopia, populated by moslems ?




gandalf,

I don't believe that you can point to this ISLAMIC exemplar, of "a model of justice and compassion and morality".

Because >> in reality << ISLAM has always been a corrupting influence upon ALL of the human beings who have embraced that evil philosophy.iAbu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1316600915/13#13

Quote:

As per usual.... A good, virtuous moslem [or community of moslems] in the world = = A MYTHICAL, NON EXISTENT CREATURE A moslem in the world who is a corrupt, violent oppressor of his fellow man = = NOT A REAL MOSLEM .......... Abu, It is absolutely impossible for ISLAM to produce a harmonious, just, and stable society. Any rational person who was to examine what ISLAM promotes, would have to come to that conclusion. And it is also true that, much of recorded ISLAMIC history [recording that moslems were the most benevolent masters of other peoples, and that those periods of ISLAMIC dominance of other peoples were always virtuous and benevolent], was manufactured, and 'confected'. An 'ISLAMIC' history, which is 'confected' by moslems themselves, to be a veil of ISLAMIC lies about ISLAM's own self professed virtue, so as to conceal the history of depraved tyranny, which always underlines ISLAMIC authority. In today's world, only a liar would deny, that ISLAM's 'example', is one of a clear history of always seeking to erase every thought, every honest expression of man, which attempts to critically and truthfully scrutinise the real 'form' of ISLAM. A wicked, corrupt beast. And when anyone asks a moslem, today, to give an example of a good, and just, benevolent Sharia society, a virtuous society based in ISLAMIC law, today, no moslem can point to such an example. Not in all of the ISLAMIC world, is there even one example, of such a virtuous society. And that is not surprising, because [almost always] examples of ISLAMIC and Sharia guided societies in the world today, are nests of oppression, depravity, corruption, violence, injustice, and human poverty. Just as any rational person, would expect them to be.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 5:23pm: So how does "mainstream Islam" differ from "Islamic doctrine"? I don't believe they do differ fundamentally. I believe the doctrine to be a model of justice and compassion and morality - and I believe 'mainstream islam' - or the majority of muslims - strive to emulate this model. But of course muslims are only human, so there will be flaws.

ISLAM is NOT a viable system for harmonious human living.

And please, gandalf, forget about referring us to the supposed ISLAMIC 'golden age'.  [....which in reality, only ever was an example of moslem historic revisionism]


TODAY

If ISLAM as system for human living is, "a model of justice and compassion and morality", please point to where that example is - in the world today.

Where is this human utopia, populated by moslems ?




gandalf,

I don't believe that you can point to this ISLAMIC exemplar, of "a model of justice and compassion and morality".

Because >> in reality << ISLAM has always been a corrupting influence upon ALL of the human beings who have embraced that evil philosophy.ii
Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1316600915/13#13

Quote:

As per usual.... A good, virtuous moslem [or community of moslems] in the world = = A MYTHICAL, NON EXISTENT CREATURE A moslem in the world who is a corrupt, violent oppressor of his fellow man = = NOT A REAL MOSLEM .......... Abu, It is absolutely impossible for ISLAM to produce a harmonious, just, and stable society. Any rational person who was to examine what ISLAM promotes, would have to come to that conclusion. And it is also true that, much of recorded ISLAMIC history [recording that moslems were the most benevolent masters of other peoples, and that those periods of ISLAMIC dominance of other peoples were always virtuous and benevolent], was manufactured, and 'confected'. An 'ISLAMIC' history, which is 'confected' by moslems themselves, to be a veil of ISLAMIC lies about ISLAM's own self professed virtue, so as to conceal the history of depraved tyranny, which always underlines ISLAMIC authority. In today's world, only a liar would deny, that ISLAM's 'example', is one of a clear history of always seeking to erase every thought, every honest expression of man, which attempts to critically and truthfully scrutinise the real 'form' of ISLAM. A wicked, corrupt beast. And when anyone asks a moslem, today, to give an example of a good, and just, benevolent Sharia society, a virtuous society based in ISLAMIC law, today, no moslem can point to such an example. Not in all of the ISLAMIC world, is there even one example, of such a virtuous society. And that is not surprising, because [almost always] examples of ISLAMIC and Sharia guided societies in the world today, are nests of oppression, depravity, corruption, violence, injustice, and human poverty. Just as any rational person, would expect them to be.

Yadda wrote on May 13^th, 2013 at 10:15am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 5:28pm: freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 5:23pm: So how does "mainstream Islam" differ from "Islamic doctrine"? I don't believe they do differ fundamentally. I believe the doctrine to be a model of justice and compassion and morality - and I believe 'mainstream islam' - or the majority of muslims - strive to emulate this model. But of course muslims are only human, so there will be flaws. If ISLAM as system for human living is, "a model of justice and compassion and morality", please point to where that example is - in the world today. Where is this human utopia, populated by moslems ?

i
Yadda wrote on Sep 26^th, 2011 at 3:35pm:

..... Is it any wonder that societies in the world today, which claim to be ISLAMIC and Sharia guided, are [almost always] nests of oppression, depravity, corruption, violence, injustice, and human poverty ??? I mean, just look at the 'representative' moslems in this forum. It is impossible to get an honest, a candid answer, a truthful admission, from a moslem in this forum regarding ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes relating to the treatment and the status of non-moslems, within Sharia jurisdictions. How could a society, a moslem society, whose members would so thoroughly, and wantonly, and happily, and so shamelessly, immerse themselves in the corrupt practices of denial, lying and the deception [of others], ever be a society which enjoys a semblance of justice and happiness ? Upon close examination and scrutiny of ISLAM and its own 'religious' texts, and the scrutiny of the actions of moslems in the world, ISLAM is revealed to be a vicious supremacist political philosophy, which promotes the use of deception, blatant lying, intimidation and extreme violence to further its aims. I have said this previously; I regard ISLAM as a deceptive and violent philosophy, a cult, which, imo, creates a mental pathology, in those persons who choose to embrace it.

Yadda why would you quote yourself what you have already posted?

Not getting enough attention?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 13^th, 2013 at 4:04pm:

Yadda why would you quote yourself what you have already posted? Not getting enough attention?

iYadda wrote on Sep 26^th, 2011 at 3:35pm:

..... I mean, just look at the 'representative' moslems in this forum. It is impossible to get an honest, a candid answer, a truthful admission, from a moslem in this forum regarding ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes relating to the treatment and the status of non-moslems, within Sharia jurisdictions. How could a society, a moslem society, whose members would so thoroughly, and wantonly, and happily, and so shamelessly, immerse themselves in the corrupt practices of denial......