Why haven't Muslims generally, heard of the Theory of Evolution? Is it not taught in Islamic schools? If not, why?

Allah created man from mud and clay according to the dumbfvckistani who wrote the Quran which sounds more plausible to a muslim than evolution.
www.quran.com/15/26

Adam was 60 cubits tall according to muslims, Adam would have been taller than the giant from jack and the beanstalk.


Quote:

The prophet said,Allah created Adam , making him 60 cubits tall. People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation. (So how many cubits tall is the average human? ;D) www.sunnah.com/bukhari/60/1

Evolution is described in the Quran.

The great muslim scholar Tusi came up with a 'Darwinian' theory of evolution (including humans) some 600 years before Darwin.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 7:58pm:

Evolution is described in the Quran. The great muslim scholar Tusi came up with a 'Darwinian' theory of evolution (including humans) some 600 years before Darwin.

And what authority does "Hassan Ali El-Najjar" have that tells you to take him seriously? (You are all lone wolf jihadis, interpreters of Islam, remember??) There are no authorities in Islam so what this guy says is as good as what anyone else says. Why quote/reference him? What's special about him?

God knows, we have enough Muslims with crazy ideas. Why single out this guy?

The Koran says that the sun sets in a muddy pond. That true, too?  Mohammed said so himself.

Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.



Global warming predicted by the Koran, what? That muddy (or hot) water must shurely be a prediction of global warming. Shurely!


Mods, please move us to the Environment board.
Ta.

Soren wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 10:16pm:

And what authority does "Hassan Ali El-Najjar" have that tells you to take him seriously?

Perhaps you could try read the article and weigh the arguments on their merits?

His opinion is actually not "crazy" within islam - this might surprise you. I think you will find that belief in evolution is pretty mainstream - though there is a wide range of different views.


Soren wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 10:16pm:

The Koran says that the sun sets in a muddy pond. That true, too?  Mohammed said so himself.

Oh great - you're stooping to Moses' level. Congratulations.  ::)

When he said it, it was hillarious. But when you say it - its just, well, sad.  :(

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 10:41pm:

not "crazy" within islam

Thanks a lot, pal.  Within Islam nothing is smacking crazy as long as it was uttered by Mo.

You are no help at all.  Critical thinking stops  - or rather, is arrested - at the opening page of the Koran and the hadiths.

I see you've given up on even trying to make sense now.

Soren's impeccable logic:

Quran says something silly - islam is smacking crazy
Quran says something logical that you actually agree with - islam is smacking crazy.

Islam is like Scientology. A cult.
I can't believe you take it seriously. It has zero depth, it's is entirely performative, caught up in how you wipe your arse and which foot you put first when entering a place of debauchery.  It has no soulful or redemptive quality, it forbids art and culture and music, it is a Mein Kampf by Mohammed. And you could not find anything better to guide your life. Pathetic.

Soren wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 9:39pm:

Islam is like Scientology. A cult. I can't believe you take it seriously. It has zero depth, it's is entirely performative, caught up in how you wipe your arse and which foot you put first when entering a place of debauchery.  It has no soulful or redemptive quality, it forbids art and culture and music, it is a Mein Kampf by Mohammed. And you could not find anything better to guide your life. Pathetic.

Did any prophet spend there time establishing culture, magic, art, music, etc etc.

Prophet Abraham destroyed idols and statues.

Moses destroyed the magic of the magicians.

Prophet Lot destroyed homosexuality.

[url][/url]
Soren wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 9:39pm:

Islam is like Scientology. A cult. I can't believe you take it seriously. It has zero depth, it's is entirely performative, caught up in how you wipe your arse and which foot you put first when entering a place of debauchery.  It has no soulful or redemptive quality, it forbids art and culture and music, it is a Mein Kampf by Mohammed. And you could not find anything better to guide your life. Pathetic.

Quite right, old chap. It is far better to guide one’s life with science and reason, tempered by great minds, great discoveries and inventions.

An open mind, full of curiousity and a thirst for knowledge makes all the difference, eh? We can see you’ve drunk from this well, old chap, and been cleansed by the miracles of the modern world. Marvellous to see.

Particularly after your recent colonic proceedure.

Proceedure? That does not do it justice.

Adventure - much better.

Best to keep an open mind, eh old chap? That’s the spirit.

You’ll be up and about in no time, mark my words.

shockresist wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

Prophet Abraham destroyed idols and statues.

No he did not!


shockresist wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

Moses destroyed the magic of the magicians.

No he did not.

I have stated this before, there is no proof that either of these two people so central to the muslim religion ever existed! That proves mo man was a liar. This statement was deleted by that itinerant muslim Abu Rashid, so it must be true!

Why is life so circular?

Adamant wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 6:29pm:

I have stated this before, there is no proof that either of these two people so central to the muslim religion ever existed! That proves mo man was a liar.

<facepalm>

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

[url][/url] Soren wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 9:39pm: Islam is like Scientology. A cult. I can't believe you take it seriously. It has zero depth, it's is entirely performative, caught up in how you wipe your arse and which foot you put first when entering a place of debauchery.  It has no soulful or redemptive quality, it forbids art and culture and music, it is a Mein Kampf by Mohammed. And you could not find anything better to guide your life. Pathetic. Quite right, old chap. It is far better to guide one’s life with science and reason, tempered by great minds, great discoveries and inventions. An open mind, full of curiousity and a thirst for knowledge makes all the difference, eh? We can see you’ve drunk from this well, old chap, and been cleansed by the miracles of the modern world. Marvellous to see. Particularly after your recent colonic proceedure. Proceedure? That does not do it justice. Adventure - much better. Best to keep an open mind, eh old chap? That’s the spirit. You’ll be up and about in no time, mark my words.

You are the Muslims' best friend, Paki Bvgger.

God help them, with supporters like you. They are already pushin' their on not unconsiderable  sh!t uphill and then you come along with all your own sh!t for bains and help them.

They were well and truly buggered before you showed up but now they have no fvckn hope in the world. Ta muchly.
Birdie fvckn Nam Nam, innit.

Carry on. We know you will.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 8:08pm:

Adamant wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 6:29pm: I have stated this before, there is no proof that either of these two people so central to the muslim religion ever existed! That proves mo man was a liar. <facepalm>

680,000 Jewish men under arms (ask Yadda the numbers maybe incorrect) left Egypt on a walkabout according to the Bible. They would have had wives, parents and children of their own. it is estimated if this fairytale took place the total number would have been 1.3 to 1.6 million people going for a stroll.The  Egyptians one of the greatest recorders of history never even mentioned the fact anywhere in any form or any place. If 1.6 million souls move house and polluted the ground for over forty years at least a bone. burial or shard of pottery would have been found,

Not one piece of evidence collaborates the existence of Moses. It is all in the Bible and nowhere else.

Facepalm Gandalf? I credited you with more sense. It appears I was in error. It will not happen again.

Soren wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 12:58pm: [url][/url] Soren wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 9:39pm: Islam is like Scientology. A cult. I can't believe you take it seriously. It has zero depth, it's is entirely performative, caught up in how you wipe your arse and which foot you put first when entering a place of debauchery.  It has no soulful or redemptive quality, it forbids art and culture and music, it is a Mein Kampf by Mohammed. And you could not find anything better to guide your life. Pathetic. Quite right, old chap. It is far better to guide one’s life with science and reason, tempered by great minds, great discoveries and inventions. An open mind, full of curiousity and a thirst for knowledge makes all the difference, eh? We can see you’ve drunk from this well, old chap, and been cleansed by the miracles of the modern world. Marvellous to see. Particularly after your recent colonic proceedure. Proceedure? That does not do it justice. Adventure - much better. Best to keep an open mind, eh old chap? That’s the spirit. You’ll be up and about in no time, mark my words. You are the Muslims' best friend, Paki Bvgger. God help them, with supporters like you. They are already pushin' their on not unconsiderable  sh!t uphill and then you come along with all your own sh!t for bains and help them. They were well and truly buggered before you showed up but now they have no fvckn hope in the world. Ta muchly. Birdie fvckn Nam Nam, innit. Carry on. We know you will.

Thanks, old chap, most kind. You always see the good in people. Do you know what you are, old boy?

You’re a healer. You provide soothing balm for those in pain. Your very presence is calming. You bring people together. Wherever there is dischord, you bring harmony - you do.

And I, for one, am grateful. Yes, old boy, I’d like to thank you just for being you. What better a gift could you give us all?

Adamant wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 8:08pm: Adamant wrote on Jun 16th, 2013 at 6:29pm: I have stated this before, there is no proof that either of these two people so central to the muslim religion ever existed! That proves mo man was a liar. <facepalm> 680,000 Jewish men under arms (ask Yadda the numbers maybe incorrect) left Egypt on a walkabout according to the Bible. They would have had wives, parents and children of their own. it is estimated if this fairytale took place the total number would have been 1.3 to 1.6 million people going for a stroll.The  Egyptians one of the greatest recorders of history never even mentioned the fact anywhere in any form or any place. If 1.6 million souls move house and polluted the ground for over forty years at least a bone. burial or shard of pottery would have been found, Not one piece of evidence collaborates the existence of Moses. It is all in the Bible and nowhere else. Facepalm Gandalf? I credited you with more sense. It appears I was in error. It will not happen again.

I guess pharaoh who is dead in a Egyptian museum with ample evidence that he drowned is also a fake.

Adamant wrote on Jun 16^th, 2013 at 10:28pm:

Facepalm Gandalf? I credited you with more sense. It appears I was in error. It will not happen again.

The facepalm wasn't over your theory regarding the existence of Moses, it was the leap in logic that this makes Muhammad a liar.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:43am:

The facepalm wasn't over your theory regarding the existence of Moses, it was the leap in logic that this makes Muhammad a liar.

If Moses did not exist then how can the Koran be the true word of Allah?

P/S Gandalf it is not a theory of mine but of the Jews!

how does that have anything to do with Muhammad being a liar?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 11:18pm:

I see you've given up on even trying to make sense now. Soren's impeccable logic: Quran says something silly - islam is smacking crazy Quran says something logical that you actually agree with - islam is smacking crazy.

Don't look at me, pal. I wasn't the crazy meshuggeh that declared his ravings to be unalterable (no less!!!) and eternal words of god. Mo had to be a complete idiot to go so far - but so far he did go. And you are as much of a crazy idiot for following him that far.

And having painted yourselves into a crazy corner, there is no way out for you. You cannot back off from the crazy claims and you cannot live as respectable citizens, upholding  such crazy claims.

You are buggered, and have been from the outset. You are backing a crazy guy and a crazy idea.
And I say this in a caring, nurturing way.

Soren wrote on Jun 20^th, 2013 at 11:33pm:

Don't look at me, pal. I wasn't the crazy meshuggeh that declared his ravings to be unalterable (no less!!!) and eternal words of god.

No, you're just the crazy meshuggeh who makes up fairy stories about islam and muslims - like the honour killer who started the Stockholm riots  ::)

Therefore nothing you claim about islam has any shred of credibility.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 10:32am:

Soren wrote on Jun 20th, 2013 at 11:33pm: Don't look at me, pal. I wasn't the crazy meshuggeh that declared his ravings to be unalterable (no less!!!) and eternal words of god. No, you're just the crazy meshuggeh who makes up fairy stories about islam and muslims - like the honour killer who started the Stockholm riots  ::) Therefore nothing you claim about islam has any shred of credibility.

What? Isn't the Koran unalterable? Didn't Allah have it as it is, from the beginning of time in ... er.... 7th century Arabic? I know it is incredible but that's what you must uphold.

Soren wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 3:01pm:

What? Isn't the Koran unalterable?

Soren, the statement is correct, but not the conclusions you draw from it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 3:55pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 3:01pm: What? Isn't the Koran unalterable? Soren, the statement is correct, but not the conclusions you draw from it.

But the Koran was compiled by humans about 30 years after the death of Mohammed. It is sorted into chapter length order. Chapter length order!!!
Its content was certainly not received in the order it is presented.
Yet you have to maintain that it has been exactly like this since the beginning of time.
This is soooo obviously the fetishisation of the Book by semi-literates. But you have to go along with it. Otherwise you are questioning it which is not allowed.

Soren wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 4:08pm:

Its content was certainly not received in the order it is presented.

and that proves it to be a hoax because...?


Soren wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 4:08pm:

Yet you have to maintain that it has been exactly like this since the beginning of time.

umm.. do we? Sorry to burst your bubble Soren, but someone seems to have led you up the garden path.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2013 at 4:25pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 4:08pm: Its content was certainly not received in the order it is presented. and that proves it to be a hoax because...? Soren wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 4:08pm: Yet you have to maintain that it has been exactly like this since the beginning of time. umm.. do we? Sorry to burst your bubble Soren, but someone seems to have led you up the garden path.

And yet, in all its 1400 year history, no-one ever dared to suggest that mebbe it could b organised into the order in which it was received by Mohamed.
Why is that? because it is regarded as untouchable, unchangeable  - even though very literate Muslim knows that it is a jumble.

Another contradiction. And you do not have the luxury of the Jews and Christians to say it's all to be taken symbolically, metaphorically, hermeneutically because islam is not abut what you think (doxa) but what you do (praxis). It is a completely performative religion. It's all 'don't think, do it our way' (or we'll cut you).
.

Soren wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 4:25pm: Soren wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 4:08pm: Its content was certainly not received in the order it is presented. and that proves it to be a hoax because...? Soren wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 4:08pm: Yet you have to maintain that it has been exactly like this since the beginning of time. umm.. do we? Sorry to burst your bubble Soren, but someone seems to have led you up the garden path. And yet, in all its 1400 year history, no-one ever dared to suggest that mebbe it could b organised into the order in which it was received by Mohamed. Why is that? because it is regarded as untouchable, unchangeable  - even though very literate Muslim knows that it is a jumble. Another contradiction. And you do not have the luxury of the Jews and Christians to say it's all to be taken symbolically, metaphorically, hermeneutically because islam is not abut what you think (doxa) but what you do (praxis). It is a completely performative religion. It's all 'don't think, do it our way' (or we'll cut you). .

The creator who created us knows what is best for his creation.

Prophet Mohamed is the seal of the prophets, no new prophet will come after him, only jesus will come back to earth where he will come back some day, get married, have children etc.


Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7

"Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you".

The comforter was Mohamed, who is the seal of the prophets.

And in John 14:26

"And i will pray to the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

shockresist wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 9:56pm:

The creator who created us knows what is best for his creation. Prophet Mohamed is the seal of the prophets, no new prophet will come after him, only jesus will come back to earth where he will come back some day, get married, have children etc. Jesus predicted the coming of Mohamed, as the bible says John 16:7 "Nevertheless, i tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if i depart, i will send him unto you". The comforter was Mohamed, who is the seal of the prophets. And in John 14:26 "And i will pray to the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

Thank you, looney. I only had a hunch about you but now I see clearly.

Carry on.

But what am I saying? You don't need me to encourage you. You don't need anybody to encourage (or discourage) you. Carry on you will.

Soren wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 4:25pm: Soren wrote on Jun 21st, 2013 at 4:08pm: Its content was certainly not received in the order it is presented. and that proves it to be a hoax because...? And yet, in all its 1400 year history, no-one ever dared to suggest that mebbe it could b organised into the order in which it was received by Mohamed. Why is that? because it is regarded as untouchable, unchangeable  - even though very literate Muslim knows that it is a jumble. Another contradiction. And you do not have the luxury of the Jews and Christians to say it's all to be taken symbolically, metaphorically, hermeneutically because islam is not abut what you think (doxa) but what you do (praxis). It is a completely performative religion. It's all 'don't think, do it our way' (or we'll cut you). .

The Specter of Muslim Disloyalty in America
http://www.meforum.org/2746/muslim-disloyalty-america

Quote:

At this point, one may justly ask: if Muslim disloyalty to non-Muslims is a ubiquitous phenomenon, why are most examples limited to the military? Simple: Islam is primarily concerned with actual deeds; and the military is one of those rare institutions that requires people to demonstrate their loyalty through action, such as, by going to the frontlines and, if need be, combating America's enemies — even if they be one's coreligionists. It is therefore only natural that Muslim loyalty/disloyalty is primarily revealed in military related scenarios, including instrumental support via food or other aid. Concerning this latter, Muhammad said, "One [Muslim] who equips a person on his way to raid [the enemy's camps] in Allah's path [jihad] is considered to have the same status as the raider [jihadist]." The willing Muslim financial enabler of the infidel American soldier thus acquires the same infidel status. As for all other instances that require Muslims to indicate their loyalty, the doctrine of taqiyya, which revolves around deceiving non-Muslims, offers relief, and is in fact essential for Muslim minorities living in America who want to uphold the doctrine of loyalty and enmity. Indeed, the Koran's primary justification for deception is in the context of loyalty: "Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels [non-Muslims] instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah — unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions" (Koran 3:28). Tabari explains this verse: "Only when you are in their [non-Muslims'] power, fearing for yourselves, are you to demonstrate friendship for them with your tongues, while harboring hostility toward them. But do not join them in the particulars of their infidelities, and do not aid them through any action against a Muslim." In other words, when necessary, Muslims are permitted to feign friendship and loyalty to non-Muslims, or, in the words of Abu Darda, a pious companion of Muhammad, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." Nearly fourteen-hundred years after these faithless words were uttered, American Muslim Tarik Shah, who was arrested for terrorist-related charges, echoed them in boast: "I could be joking and smiling [with infidels] and then cutting their throats in the next second." .....far less than .1% of America's Muslims will ever be required to enlist in the U.S. military and deploy to Muslim nations. Yet this is the only scenario that determines [i.e. that openly demonstrates to an infidel!] whether Muslim loyalties lie with fellow Muslims or with fellow, albeit infidel, citizens.

ISLAM is always a cancerous and parasitic philosophy, when it is freely allowed contact with any other political 'body'.

While its cadres are still too weak to be in openly 'hostile mode' - moslems, like cancer cells, pretend to be cells that belong to the body.

Yet every moslem in the West, is a cell of a lethal societal 'cancer'.

AS  A NON-MOSLEM, YOU NEED TO COMPREHEND - Every moslem, at every moment, is working towards, and seeking new ways to contribute to the destruction the host culture.


n.b.

Quote:

Infection or cancer, cannot take hold and spread in vital, healthy flesh. We remain healthy while our body remains vital and 'clean'. We remain healthy while our body has the capacity to clease itself of the toxins produced by the processes that occur within a living organism. Infection and cancer, take hold in a 'polluted' body ['polluted' usually due to overconsumption]. Infection and cancer will kill the host, when a body no longer has the capacity to clease itself of those toxins produced by the processes that occur within a living organism.

+++



Many, many people [we non-moslems] still cannot bring themselves to confront the TRUTH about the motives and the ultimate aims, of those, whom we have mistakenly allowed to live among us,
i.e. moslems.



Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.



"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

Soren wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

And yet, in all its 1400 year history, no-one ever dared to suggest that mebbe it could b organised into the order in which it was received by Mohamed. Why is that? because it is regarded as untouchable, unchangeable  - even though very literate Muslim knows that it is a jumble.

This might be of interest to you

The Quran and its written form (Mushaf) is not the same. It was compiled into a book a long time after it was revealed.


Quote:

Another contradiction. And you do not have the luxury of the Jews and Christians to say it's all to be taken symbolically, metaphorically, hermeneutically because islam is not abut what you think (doxa) but what you do (praxis). It is a completely performative religion. It's all 'don't think, do it our way' (or we'll cut you).

There are plenty of metaphors in the Quran - that verse you quoted earlier about the sun setting in the mud for example.

If this is your case for why it should be considered a hoax, then you disappoint.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2013 at 10:04am:

Soren wrote on Jun 22nd, 2013 at 5:26pm: And yet, in all its 1400 year history, no-one ever dared to suggest that mebbe it could b organised into the order in which it was received by Mohamed. Why is that? because it is regarded as untouchable, unchangeable  - even though very literate Muslim knows that it is a jumble. This might be of interest to you The Quran and its written form (Mushaf) is not the same. It was compiled into a book a long time after it was revealed.

So all the rioting over the accidental maltreatment of the printed paper form of the ushaf is mere commodity fetishim, the idolatrous worshipping of a mere paper object, industrially produced and bought and sold?




polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2013 at 10:04am:

Quote: Another contradiction. And you do not have the luxury of the Jews and Christians to say it's all to be taken symbolically, metaphorically, hermeneutically because islam is not abut what you think (doxa) but what you do (praxis). It is a completely performative religion. It's all 'don't think, do it our way' (or we'll cut you). There are plenty of metaphors in the Quran - that verse you quoted earlier about the sun setting in the mud for example. If this is your case for why it should be considered a hoax, then you disappoint.

The metaphors matter not one bit because what you think matters not one bit. What you do - performance - is all that matters in Islam.

Soren wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 4:12pm:

So all the rioting over the accidental maltreatment of the printed paper form of the ushaf is mere commodity fetishim, the idolatrous worshipping of a mere paper object, industrially produced and bought and sold?

Maybe you should ask the people who were rioting over that. It certainly wasn't me.

Most likely though its resentment over the perceived lack of respect for islam. A bit like the horror some Americans show for the burning of the American flag is not exactly fetishism over a coloured piece of cloth.

I've witnessed a flag burning in the US. Other than singed eyebrows, no-one got hurt. People were bemused more than anything.

It is kind of ironic that their absurd demands for respect are a big part of the reason people disrespect Islam so much. I think exposure therapy is the only cure.

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 7:23pm:

I've witnessed a flag burning in the US. Other than singed eyebrows, no-one got hurt. People were bemused more than anything.

Depends where you are, and who is watching it I guess. As I recall there wasn't much bemusement amongst many Americans when CNN broadcast images of Pakistani protestors burning flags right after 9/11


freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 7:23pm:

It is kind of ironic that their absurd demands for respect are a big part of the reason people disrespect Islam so much. I think exposure therapy is the only cure.

'Absurd' is to watch as muslim nations are systematically bombed and invaded and western bases set up and corrupt client regimes propped up - and then stand up and say "gee, aren't they being unreasonable being pissed off about this?"

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 24^th, 2013 at 9:41pm:

'Absurd' is to watch as muslim nations are systematically bombed and invaded and western bases set up and corrupt client regimes propped up - and then stand up and say "gee, aren't they being unreasonable being pissed off about this?"

the same Muslim nations who bomb and invade other countries?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 11:35am:

the same Muslim nations who bomb and invade other countries?

Such as?

Usually when a muslim nation invades another nation, its done with the blessing and backing of the US - because they are client regimes. But don't get the regimes confused with the stateless islamists and terrorists - who hate the muslim client regimes even more than the west.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 12:11pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 11:35am: the same Muslim nations who bomb and invade other countries? Such as? Usually when a muslim nation invades another nation, its done with the blessing and backing of the US - because they are client regimes. But don't get the regimes confused with the stateless islamists and terrorists - who hate the muslim client regimes even more than the west.

Jordan
Syria
Egypt

On several occasions in the 20. century and still exist in a state of war from Syria.

right avron but any examples less than 40 years ago?

Quote:

Depends where you are, and who is watching it I guess. As I recall there wasn't much bemusement amongst many Americans when CNN broadcast images of Pakistani protestors burning flags right after 9/11

I suspect they were upset about something other than the flag burning. They could have clapped their hands and it would have had the same effect, except perhaps in terms of clarity of the message.


Quote:

'Absurd' is to watch as muslim nations are systematically bombed and invaded and western bases set up and corrupt client regimes propped up - and then stand up and say "gee, aren't they being unreasonable being pissed off about this?"

When we are trying to set up a functioning democracy, then yes, in my opinion they are being unreasonable about it.


Quote:

right avron but any examples less than 40 years ago?

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

I suspect they were upset about something other than the flag burning

Exactly.


freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

When we are trying to set up a functioning democracy

::) please.

Does "trying" include propping up a known election rigger?


freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades?

Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 7:35pm: Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades? Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed;

That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be.

Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means.

And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change.

Dictionary;
ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology.i




IMAGE
http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif
THE TRUTH;
Even though ISRAEL, is the ancient and the only homeland of the Jewish people....

.....the ISLAMISTS throughout the region have declared time and time again, that there is not enough room in the Middle East for a non-moslem entity.



ISLAM and moslems have control of the vast majority of all of the land in the Middle East, but ISLAM refuses to allow any sovereign, non-moslem entity, to exist along side them there.

And all of the conflicts [throughout the region] are being fuelled by moslem religious bigotry, caused by the adherents of ISLAM.

Where those moslems are 'righteously' murdering others [moslems and non-moslems] who do not believe as they believe.







ISLAM teaches moslems, that moslems must seek to be dominant.

ISLAM obligates every moslem to work, to bring about moslem lordship over others [the infidels].

So that moslems can [forcefully] impose ISLAM upon all peoples.

Moslems pretend tolerance of other people, and other cultures - while they have no power to do anything else.

But moslems cannot hide the truth that, all moslems ARE religious bigots.

For proof, just look at the political circumstances, in all of those places where moslems have political authority.





"If you want to know a man's character, give him power."
Abraham Lincoln

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan.

The wonder of the western media descriptions over decades.

"Occupation"

"Colluding with Israelis"

That is funny. I imagine the Jordanian patrols that fired at us in the disputed zone didnt receive the memorandum that they are our friends?

Umm.. so you two are suggesting there is no occupation of the West Bank? How exactly does that work?

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 10:51pm: freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 7:35pm: Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades? Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan. Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed; That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be. Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means. And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change. Dictionary; ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology.

You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising?

Do you include the UN in your assessment?

Karnal wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 26th, 2013 at 9:54am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 10:51pm: freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 7:35pm: Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades? Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan. Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed; That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be. Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means. And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change. Dictionary; ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology. You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising? Do you include the UN in your assessment?

tell me how this land was taken.
who has attacked who.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:07pm:

tell me how this land was taken. who has attacked who.

Um.. Israel attacked Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1967 - and gained control of the WB and Gaza.

This must be a trick question right?

No.

100,000 soldiers in the Sinai is a declaration of war and intention to strike Israel.

We said to Egypt if there is soldiers in the Sinai then it is war. Yet they did so.

i like to think my knowledge here is strong. We study our history intensely in our schools as students so we know 1967 very well thank you.

I am happy to teach Aussies this.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

i like to think my knowledge here is strong. We study our history intensely in our schools as students so we know 1967 very well thank you. I am happy to teach Aussies this.

So you're happy to hand back Jerusalem?

You know who has handed most land to Palestinians?

Jordan? No - Until 1980 they demand all the Samaria and West bank of the Jordan river
Egypt? No - they claimed Gaza
Syria? No

These countries give their palestinians 'brothers' nothing.

All their land comes from the goodwill of Israel.

Jerusalem? No, this is not a disputed territory. There is no discussion to be said on Jerusalem.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:44pm:

100,000 soldiers in the Sinai is a declaration of war and intention to strike Israel. We said to Egypt if there is soldiers in the Sinai then it is war. Yet they did so.

you asked who attacked who - Israel attacked the arabs. not even Israel denied that. You may call it a pre-emptive attack, but it was still an attack.

Then defense minister Moshe Dayan on the conquest of the Golan Heights:


Quote:

General Dayan died in 1981. But in conversations with a young reporter five years earlier, he said he regretted not having stuck to his initial opposition to storming the Golan Heights. There really was no pressing reason to do so, he said, because many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland.

[...]


Quote:

"I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-golan.html?src=pm


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

i like to think my knowledge here is strong. We study our history intensely in our schools as students so we know 1967 very well thank you.

;D ;D Yes I'm sure you do. I'll give the teaching of Israeli history in Israeli schools about as much credibility as the history taught in Palestinian schools.

Israel tells schools not to teach nakba:

Let me guess, Benny Morris is not a textbook used on the nakba?


Quote:

In his first The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947—1949 (1988), Morris argues that the 700,000 Palestinians who fled their homes in 1947 left mostly due to Israeli military attacks; fear of impending attacks; and expulsions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

You quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport.

This is not going to have biased opinion you think?

Israeli schools are amongst best in the world.
My family graduate from Israeli schools and gain access to American university places as a result.

We teach correct history. Not pro palestinian crying stories.

You want to know how they are?

How about women pretending to be hurt in the gravel of paths with intention to draw out our unit to help them to be in the line of sights of snipers from their camps?
Or young children put forward to need our help so we come out of the sentry point to see molotov cocktails throwed to us and large stones thrown at our vehicles.

Please dont give me these bullshit palestinian stories.

I know much better because i have been one in this.

LOL - I didn't give you any Palestinian stories. Not one.

I think you have demonstrated quite well how incapable you are of discussing this rationally.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 3:26pm:

ou quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport.

The US?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 3:26pm:

You quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport. This is not going to have biased opinion you think?

That's right, Avram. The New York Times has always been against the state of Israel.

I'm sure Israel teaches correct history. Quite unbiased.

Most rational, old chap. You do know the old boy, don't you? No need for introductions.

thenational.ae is a Emirates newspaper and they do not allow us to come.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:16pm:

LOL - I didn't give you any Palestinian stories. Not one. I think you have demonstrated quite well how incapable you are of discussing this rationally. Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26th, 2013 at 3:26pm: ou quote a newspaper under control in a country that does not even allow me to enter it because of the color of my passport. The US?

Yes you did - you give me a newspaper of stories of their movements in the region.

The Palestinians.

Everyone has movements in that time too. Let me tell you of a holocaust of 6 million people forcing movements of people.
How about they study that in their schools?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:51pm:

How about they study that in their schools?

You're not getting any argument from me there - I already said the Palestinian education system is biased and untrustworthy. But I'm afraid your side can't claim the moral high ground there - your history teachers are told not to mention anything about the nakba - it was all a ruse - Palestinians merely made a strategic retreat to make way for the invading arab hordes. Its a fairy tale that no reputable historian takes seriously - not even the rabid zionist Benny Morris.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 4:51pm:

Yes you did - you give me a newspaper of stories of their movements in the region. The Palestinians.

You seem to be mistaken. The article I gave you was about Israeli and Syrian tensions over the Golan Heights. And it was from the New York Times - I have no idea what this fictional article from this UAE paper is you are talking about.

Karnal wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 26th, 2013 at 9:54am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 10:51pm: freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 7:35pm: Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades? Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan. Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed; That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be. Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means. And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change. Dictionary; ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology. You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising? Do you include the UN in your assessment?

What about this reasoning K ????......

islam and jews
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1299665041/39#39

Quote:

......international law allows nations who are attacked [e.g. the state of Israel, 1948], to occupy and annex land that was previously recognised as being a part of another state [e.g. Arab states, 1948] because of aggression and attacks, upon a neighbouring state [Israel, 1948]. And international laws does not prohibit a state which was attacked [e.g. the state of Israel, 1948], from occupying and annexing the lands of an aggressor, so as to prevent further attacks. ......"ISRAEL AND INTERNATIONAL LAW....Israel’s presence in all these areas pending negotiation of new borders is entirely lawful, since Israel entered them lawfully in self-defence. International law forbids acquisition by unlawful force, but not where, as in the case of Israel’s self-defence in 1967, the entry on the territory was lawful. It does not so forbid it,....for the effect of such prohibition would be to guarantee to all potential aggressors that, even if their aggression failed, all territory lost in the attempt would be automatically returned to them. Such a rule would be absurd to the point of lunacy. There is no such rule..." http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1528

Karnal wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 26th, 2013 at 9:54am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 10:51pm: freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2013 at 7:35pm: Haven't they tried to invade Israel in the last 4 decades? Not sure if thats a serious question - but no they haven't. Egypt and Jordan have been US client states, actively colluding with the Israelis to maintain the occupation of the WB and Jordan. Yet again, in conversation with a moslem ideologue, we see the moslem ['default', idealogical] position on 'Israel' being exposed; That, Israel is NOT a sovereign nation - and it never will be. Israel is occupied MOSLEM land, that must be reacquired, by moslems, using any means. And that determination [in the heart of moslems] towards Israel, will NEVER, EVER, change. Dictionary; ideologue = = a dogmatic or uncompromising adherent of an ideology. You might need to help me with this one, Y. How is the act of fighting to get back land and property seized by the Israelis in 1967 dogmatic and uncompromising? Do you include the UN in your assessment?

AND, this......


Israel's supporters better wake up!
By Melanie Phillips


Quote:

...In Britain, the universities, the established church, the theatrical and publishing worlds, the voluntary sector, significant elements within the Foreign Office, members of Parliament across the political spectrum, as well as the media have overwhelmingly signed up to the demonization and delegitimization of Israel. The scale of this phenomenon is nothing short of a multi-layered civilizational crisis. The west is experiencing a total inversion of truth evidence and reason. A society's thinking class has overwhelmingly subscribed to an immoral, patently false and in many cases demonstrably absurd account of the Middle East, past and present, which it has uncritically absorbed and assumes to be true. In routine, everyday discourse history is turned on its head; logic is suspended; and an entirely false narrative of the conflict is now widely accepted as unchallengeable fact, from which fundamental error has been spun a global web of potentially catastrophic false conclusions. This has led to a kind of dialogue of the demented in which rational discussion is simply not possible because there is no shared understanding of the meaning of language. So victim and victimizer, truth and lies, justice and injustice turn into their precise opposite. ...Because Islam is considered perfect, its adherents can never do wrong. All their aggression is therefore represented as self-defense, while western/Israeli self-defense is said to be aggression. So in this Orwellian universe the enslavement of Muslim women is said to represent their liberation; democracy is a means of enslavement from which the west must be freed; and the murder of Israelis is the purest form of justice. Furthermore, this is overlaid by the phenomenon of 'psychological projection' in which the Islamic world not only denies its own misdeeds but ascribes them instead to its victims. ...What is remarkable is that instead of treating this as a pathological deformity of thinking, the western progressive intelligentsia has largely embraced it as rational and true. And to a large extent this is because that same western intelligentsia has itself supplanted rationality by ideology -- or the dogma of a particular idea. ...In short, therefore, the west cannot defend itself against the Islamic jihad because it can't itself even think straight any more. But this lethal muddle in the minds of the intelligentsia must be viewed in turn in the context of a global diplomatic process which itself embodies upside-down thinking, which fans the flames of bigotry and defeatism -- and in which Israel itself has been tragically, and suicidally, complicit. It cannot be stressed enough that the reason why those promoting genocidal bigotry are winning is that the western world has not sought to defeat them but instead has appeased them from the very start. ...The single greatest reason for the endless continuation of the Middle East impasse is that Britain, Europe and America have continuously rewarded the aggressor and either attacked the victim or left it twisting in the wind. That's what needs to be said by Israel and its defenders. But Israel and its defenders themselves have been crippled or cowed by the false analysis of the enemy's narrative. Even many of Israel's friends spout the demonstrably absurd proposition that a Palestine state would solve the problem, that the impediment to a Palestine state is the 'settlers', but that Israel is not taking action to remove the 'settlers' -- and so therefore they too inescapably agree that Israel is the problem. Israel and its defenders have been fighting on the wrong battleground: the one that has been chosen by its enemies. The Arabs brilliantly reconfigured the Arab war of extermination against Israel as the oppression by Israel of the Palestinians.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0111/phillips011011.php3?printer_friendly

That’s not very helpful, Y. You didn’t answer the question.

Karnal wrote on Jun 26^th, 2013 at 9:54pm:

That’s not very helpful, Y. You didn’t answer the question.

Oh yes i did.

The problem is that you need to take those moslem coloured glasses off.




Take those dysfunctional glasses off, and take a another look.

The land of Israel, isn't being 'occupied',   ...Israel is a sovereign nation, that is being defended.

Yadda wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 26th, 2013 at 9:54pm: That’s not very helpful, Y. You didn’t answer the question. Oh yes i did. The problem is that you need to take those moslem coloured glasses off. Take those dysfunctional glasses off, and take a another look. The land of Israel, isn't being 'occupied',   ...Israel is a sovereign nation, that is being defended.

What's it got to do with Moslems or their glasses, Y?

Israel seized sovereign land and property. There are thousands of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, etc, who were evicted from their homes and farms.

How is it dogmatic and uncompromising to ask for them back?

Karnal wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Israel seized sovereign land and property.

no

It doesn't matter who seized what. All that matters is who can defend it.

Karnal wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 27th, 2013 at 7:53am: Karnal wrote on Jun 26th, 2013 at 9:54pm: That’s not very helpful, Y. You didn’t answer the question. Oh yes i did. The problem is that you need to take those moslem coloured glasses off. Take those dysfunctional glasses off, and take a another look. The land of Israel, isn't being 'occupied',   ...Israel is a sovereign nation, that is being defended. What's it got to do with Moslems or their glasses, Y? Israel seized sovereign land and property. There are thousands of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, etc, who were evicted from their homes and farms. How is it dogmatic and uncompromising to ask for them back?

K,

1/
You are 'fabricating' a new history [of the M.E.], with such declarations.

2/
Such fabrications merely demonstrate the depth of your own commitment, to lies and deceit.

Yadda wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 12:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 27th, 2013 at 11:15am: Yadda wrote on Jun 27th, 2013 at 7:53am: Karnal wrote on Jun 26th, 2013 at 9:54pm: That’s not very helpful, Y. You didn’t answer the question. Oh yes i did. The problem is that you need to take those moslem coloured glasses off. Take those dysfunctional glasses off, and take a another look. The land of Israel, isn't being 'occupied',   ...Israel is a sovereign nation, that is being defended. What's it got to do with Moslems or their glasses, Y? Israel seized sovereign land and property. There are thousands of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, etc, who were evicted from their homes and farms. How is it dogmatic and uncompromising to ask for them back? K, 1/ You are 'fabricating' a new history [of the M.E.], with such declarations. 2/ Such fabrications merely demonstrate the depth of your own commitment, to lies and deceit.

Fabrications? You'll have to tell the Israeli Supreme Court, Y:


Quote:

The jurisdiction of some 200 settlements, illegal under international law, cover much more of the occupied Palestinian territory than previously thought. And a large section of the land has been seized from private Palestinian landowners in defiance even of an Israeli supreme court ruling, the report said, a finding which sits uncomfortably with Israeli claims that it builds only on state land.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/exposed-the-truth-about-israels-land-grab-in-the-west-bank-2020110.html

And Israeli human rights groups:


Quote:

One fifth of the built-up areas in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank are located on private Palestinian land, an Israeli human rights group said yesterday, contradicting official Israeli claims that those communities were not constructed on Palestinian-owned property.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/activists-map-out-extent-of-seizure-of-palestinians-land

And the UN:


Quote:

In Geneva, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, said human rights challenges in the occupied Palestinian territory are intrinsically linked to the continuing expansion of Israeli settlements, including violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=41579&Cr=Palestin&Cr1=&Kw1=water&Kw2=&Kw3=

And the Geneva Convention:


Quote:

Construction of Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian lands violates the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prevents an occupying power from transferring its own population into occupied territory, an act that could be equal to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/04/01/296013/palestinians-given-07-of-west-bank/

And, last but not least, Jesus:


Quote:

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

. John 8:32.

Quote:

One fifth of the built-up areas in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank are located on private Palestinian land, an Israeli human rights group said yesterday, contradicting official Israeli claims that those communities were not constructed on Palestinian-owned property.

The actual buildings existing now are just the tip of the iceberg - and themselves only occupy around 2% of the total WB. The real killer is the regional and municipal boundaries that are reserved for future Israel-only buildings. At last count, this incorporated something close to 50% of the entire West Bank - and of course are strategically situated so as to prevent any sort of contiguity between the Palestinian built up areas.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 1:24pm:

Quote: One fifth of the built-up areas in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank are located on private Palestinian land, an Israeli human rights group said yesterday, contradicting official Israeli claims that those communities were not constructed on Palestinian-owned property. The actual buildings existing now are just the tip of the iceberg - and themselves only occupy around 2% of the total WB. The real killer is the regional and municipal boundaries that are reserved for future Israel-only buildings. At last count, this incorporated something close to 50% of the entire West Bank.

Do you think it could be a fabrication, G? I mean, is it possible that this is all just a huge, Moslem-led conspiracy against Israel?

I hate to mention the war but, you know, there are people who say the same about the Holocaust.

Avram would have learned about them at school.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 1:24pm:

Quote: One fifth of the built-up areas in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank are located on private Palestinian land, an Israeli human rights group said yesterday, contradicting official Israeli claims that those communities were not constructed on Palestinian-owned property. The actual buildings existing now are just the tip of the iceberg - and themselves only occupy around 2% of the total WB. The real killer is the regional and municipal boundaries that are reserved for future Israel-only buildings. At last count, this incorporated something close to 50% of the entire West Bank - and of course are strategically situated so as to prevent any sort of contiguity between the Palestinian built up areas.

Let me tell you this because i stood on this ground only 1.5 month ago.
There are two issues:

1. The Palestinians have their own land and their own cities. Sure and the territory is respected and has been given to them by Israel. Note Jordan did not believe they should receive and only in 1980 did they agree.

2. There is a security concern. Note that the Palestinians sites are close to Israel. There must be a zone to prevent their increasing into our borders and placing into risk the people of Israel.
Now also you must account for the settlements in these lands - the Samaria and Judea. We can not just desert these places - we have a right and obligation to provide protection for these citizens.

So we place the sentry points controls between the Palestinians land and the settlements.
Now also when there is a road within the Palestinian zone it also comes close to the settlement so must also require a checkpoint to ensure the safety and non passage of dangerous material in the car.

I must say, because only recently i had this task myself, the checkpoints pass with no problems - they are quick and only if there is some mistakes with the ID cards and the Palestinians be causing trouble does the process become not quick.

So come on, have some reality on the situation. it is very difficult to patrol and provide the safety of the people in this time.

But i must say the good side of my return to active service was i am most fit on the running again  :)

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 2:54pm:

The Palestinians have their own land and their own cities.

Behold, the great expanse of land controlled by the Palestinian Authority:

http://www.btselem.org/sites/default/files2/library/201306_area_c_map_eng.jpg

The mass of red is the so called "Area C" - under total control of the Israelis. Palestinians are not allowed to build here, expand existing settlements and are under constant threat of expulsion. Most of this land is reserved for future Israeli settlements.

The patchwork of little islands within this Area C, is the areas where the Palestinians have at least some autonomy. Pretty awesome isn't it?

Life for Palestinians in Area C:

Quote:

Some 60 percent of West Bank lands have been classified as “Area C” and are under full and exclusive Israeli control. Area C is home to an estimated 180,000 Palestinians and includes the major residential and development land reserves for the entire West Bank. Israel prohibits Palestinian construction and development on some 70 percent of Area C territory, arguing various rationales, such as being “state lands” or “firing zones.” Israel’s planning and construction policy virtually ignores the needs of the local population: it refuses to recognize most of the villages in the area or draw up plans for them, prevents the expansion and development of Palestinian communities, demolishes homes and does not allow the communities to hook up to infrastructure. Thousands of inhabitants live under the constant threat of expulsion for living in alleged firing zones or “illegal” communities. In addition, Israel has taken over most of the water sources in Area C and has restricted Palestinian access to them.

And how it affects life in Area A and B:


Quote:

In theory, Israel retains full control in the West Bank only of Area C. In practice, Israel’s control of Area C adversely affects all Palestinian West Bank residents. Scattered throughout the vast expanses of Area C are 165 “islands” of Area A- and B-land that are home to the major concentrations of population in the West Bank. The land reserves that surround the built-up sections of West Bank towns and villages are often designated as Area C, and Israel does not allow construction or development on these reserves. Israel thereby stifles many Area A and B communities, denying them the opportunity to develop. This is one of the contributing factors to the difficulty in obtaining lots for construction, the steep price hike in the cost of the few available plots, the dearth of open areas, and the total lack of suitable sites for infrastructure and industrial zones. If, for want of an alternative, residents of these areas build homes without permits on nearby land – owned by them but classified “Area C” – they live under the constant shadow of the threat of demolition.

http://www.btselem.org/publications/201306_area_c

You know i was in this red area just on the west of Bethlehem.

Can I tell you that it has many many many Palestinians who live there.

This is not 100% Jewish at all. This map is most misleading.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 4:48pm:

You know i was in this red area just on the west of Bethlehem. Can I tell you that it has many many many Palestinians who live there. This is not 100% Jewish at all. This map is most misleading.

I say, Avram, as someone who has been there, do you think such a map demonstrates the depth of Moslem commitment to lies and deceit?

Do you think it's 'fabricating' a new history of the M.E.?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 4:23pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 27th, 2013 at 2:54pm: The Palestinians have their own land and their own cities. Behold, the great expanse of land controlled by the Palestinian Authority: http://www.btselem.org/sites/default/files2/library/201306_area_c_map_eng.jpg The mass of red is the so called "Area C" - under total control of the Israelis. Palestinians are not allowed to build here, expand existing settlements and are under constant threat of expulsion. Most of this land is reserved for future Israeli settlements. The patchwork of little islands within this Area C, is the areas where the Palestinians have at least some autonomy. Pretty awesome isn't it?

The Palestinans could have had it ALL if they hadn't embarked on a relentless terror campaign to drive out the Jews completely. This is what you get for smacking with the Jews after the holocaust - you are hemmed in and put on a leash.
Should have been content with all of Jordan plus the West Bank and Gaza. But no.
The Pallos and the Muslims generally thought that the holocaust would not change the Jews  and that 'never again' was just an empty slogan. Major miscalculation.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 4:48pm:

You know i was in this red area just on the west of Bethlehem. Can I tell you that it has many many many Palestinians who live there. This is not 100% Jewish at all. This map is most misleading.

Avram, you fail dismally at reading comprehension. Did they teach you that at your Israeli school?

There are some 180 000 Palestinians in Area C - half the point of quoting that article was to point out the plight of the Palestinians who find themselves in Area C. Sheesh.

The reason there are security presences and checkpoints is to secure the borders and the Jewish settlements.
The checkpoints which I know of and be at in this zone are always in our territory.

Palestinian territory is respected in all but most extreme circumstance.

Soren wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 6:47pm:

The Palestinans could have had it ALL if they hadn't embarked on a relentless terror campaign to drive out the Jews completely. This is what you get for smacking with the Jews after the holocaust - you are hemmed in and put on a leash. Should have been content with all of Jordan plus the West Bank and Gaza. But no. The Pallos and the Muslims generally thought that the holocaust would not change the Jews  and that 'never again' was just an empty slogan. Major miscalculation.

Interesting then that the Isreali founding fathers seemed not to get that memo Soren. Theodore Hertzl and Ben-Gurion were boasting how they were going to ethnically cleanse the entire area of Palestine long before any terror was committed by the arabs.

Outwardly, Ben-Gurion was supporting the Peel Commission's two state plan, but privately, he was explaining how this was merely a first step to claiming all of Palestine:


Quote:

My assumption (which is why I am a fervent proponent of a state, even though it is now linked to partition) is that a Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning.

Quote:

When we acquire one thousand or 10,000 dunams, we feel elated. It does not hurt  our feelings that by this acquisition we are not in possession of the whole land. This is because this increase in possession is of consequence not only in itself, but because through it we increase our strength, and every increase in strength helps in the possession of the land as a whole. The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-their-place-institute-for-palestine-studies-publishes-1937-ben-gurion-letter-advocating-the-expulsion-of-palestinians.html

All of Palestine - does that include Jordan?

Where IS Palestine??
I suspect it is everywhere that Jews are. 'Palestine'  is a shiboleth (!) for Jewish presence anywhere between Morocco and Pakistan.

Soren wrote on Jun 27^th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

All of Palestine - does that include Jordan? Where IS Palestine??

Here is Ben-Gurion's description of the borders Israel should strive for:


Quote:

"to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan"

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html

And here is a map of claimed jewish land presented by the World Zionist Organisation in 1918: 

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Maps/New/Map_GreaterIsreal.gif

And what were the final Israeli borders that the Jews actually accepted in 1948 (but the Arabs rejected and went to war against Israel instead)??

The jews and Zionists in israeal are a terrorist racist entitiy who are invading and taking over other people lands and who hate all non jews, muslims, arabs, christians, black Africans etc.


1. "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.


2."We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."

Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.



3. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."

Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

4. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."

Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.


5."We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, what is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"

Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs,
published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

I hate when the jews complain about the trauma and terror in the holocoust, but then turn that around and do it on the palestinians.

A british MP, David Ward recently said this

"Having visited Auschwitz twice - once with my family and once with local schools - I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza."



Israel is in the top 3 countries most hated and a report given by the european union claims israel is the greatest threat to world peace.

Have a look at what jews think about non-jews,

“The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew.”

Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30



“The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts.”

Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b



“The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs.”

Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b


“It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile.”

Sepher ikkarim III c 25


“It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah.”

Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5

Soren, the jews "accepted" the partition plan because it was a grossly unfair deal to the arabs: granting 56% of the land to a population that at that stage consisted only around 35% of the population - and legally owned a mere 7% of the land. Within the jewish allocated area, 45% of the population was non-jewish.

The other reason they accepted it is because, as made clear by Ben-Gurion and others, the jews had no intention of being content with a mere 55% of the land. They wanted it all, and made it perfectly clear that they were going to drive out the arabs from the entire area one way or another, and claim it all for themselves. As Ben-Gurion stated in that letter to his son - the acceptance of partition was merely a stepping stone to their real goal of claiming it all for themselves.

This second factor, IMO, is the real reason for Arab anxiety - which led to their hostility.

Just to put it into proper context - rewind two decades to 1920, where the British foreign office observed:


Quote:

The Zionist declaration of our Government has been followed by a very considerable immigration of Jews. One of the difficulties of the situation arises from the fact that the Zionists have taken full advantage - and are disposed to take even fuller advantage - of the opportunity which was then offered to them. You have only to read, as probably most of us do, their periodical 'Palestine', and, indeed, their pronouncements in the papers, to see that their programme is expanding from day to day. They now talk about a Jewish State. The Arab portion of the population is well-nigh forgotten and is to be ignored. They not only claim the boundaries of the old Palestine, but they claim to spread across the Jordan into the rich countries lying to the east, and, indeed, there seems to be very small limit to the aspirations which they now form. The Zionist programme, and the energy with which it is being carried out, have not unnaturally had the consequence of arousing the keen suspicions of the Arabs

you have a very anti-jewish mind on the history of the region.

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

And what were the final Israeli borders that the Jews actually accepted in 1948 (but the Arabs rejected and went to war against Israel instead)??

The borders have changed a couple of the times in the 20. century.

Each time because of Arab aggression. So far no member of my family has not been in war, this is the situation we face.

My grandfather 1948
my father and uncles 1967
my brothers Operation defensive shield
Me - Operation Cast Lead

Show how the Arabs force us to defend ourselves every generation?

You people in this wonderful peaceful country have no idea how it is to defend every day your land and people from attack.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:43am:

Soren, the jews "accepted" the partition plan because it was a grossly unfair deal to the arabs: granting 56% of the land to a population that at that stage consisted only around 35% of the population - and legally owned a mere 7% of the land. Within the jewish allocated area, 45% of the population was non-jewish. The other reason they accepted it is because, as made clear by Ben-Gurion and others, the jews had no intention of being content with a mere 55% of the land. They wanted it all, and made it perfectly clear that they were going to drive out the arabs from the entire area one way or another, and claim it all for themselves. As Ben-Gurion stated in that letter to his son - the acceptance of partition was merely a stepping stone to their real goal of claiming it all for themselves. This second factor, IMO, is the real reason for Arab anxiety - which led to their hostility. Just to put it into proper context - rewind two decades to 1920, where the British foreign office observed: Quote: The Zionist declaration of our Government has been followed by a very considerable immigration of Jews. One of the difficulties of the situation arises from the fact that the Zionists have taken full advantage - and are disposed to take even fuller advantage - of the opportunity which was then offered to them. You have only to read, as probably most of us do, their periodical 'Palestine', and, indeed, their pronouncements in the papers, to see that their programme is expanding from day to day. They now talk about a Jewish State. The Arab portion of the population is well-nigh forgotten and is to be ignored. They not only claim the boundaries of the old Palestine, but they claim to spread across the Jordan into the rich countries lying to the east, and, indeed, there seems to be very small limit to the aspirations which they now form. The Zionist programme, and the energy with which it is being carried out, have not unnaturally had the consequence of arousing the keen suspicions of the Arabs

This is conjecture and ignores a crucial point. The UN approved the partition in 1947 and subsequent to 1948, most UN members have recognised Israel.

Had the Arabs recognised it also as it was in 1948, expansion would have been impossible as there would have been no war.

If you look at Alsace and Lorraine or East Prussia or the Austro-Hungarian Empire or Sudetenland or any number of border shifts and consequent population shifts in the last 100 years you will see that the Arab opposition to a Jewish state is unique. And it doesn't take much effort to see that the opposition is fundamentally religio-political (two things for non-Muslims but one for Muslims).

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:11am: And what were the final Israeli borders that the Jews actually accepted in 1948 (but the Arabs rejected and went to war against Israel instead)?? The borders have changed a couple of the times in the 20. century. Each time because of Arab aggression. So far no member of my family has not been in war, this is the situation we face. My grandfather 1948 my father and uncles 1967 my brothers Operation defensive shield Me - Operation Cast Lead Show how the Arabs force us to defend ourselves every generation? You people in this wonderful peaceful country have no idea how it is to defend every day your land and people from attack.

You're right. We don't. But with each of those "defensive operations" (excluding the last two) Israel has seized and occupied the sovereign territory of other states - illegally under international law and UN resolution.

This was done by Saddam to Kuwait in the first Gulf War. The result? You know the result.

Arab aggression or not, Israel doesn't play by the rules. By any definition, this makes Israel a rogue state.

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

If you look at Alsace and Lorraine or East Prussia or the Austro-Hungarian Empire or Sudetenland or any number of border shifts and consequent population shifts in the last 100 years you will see that the Arab opposition to a Jewish state is unique.

And in each of those border shifts, the major powers created buffer states to slow military deployment and curtail the threat of invasion. This wasn't possible in the Middle East after WWII and decolonization.

Hence, you get a country like Israel in the Six Day War setting out in tanks to blow up everything in its path and claiming as much territory as it could cover.

And without buffer states, these kinds of offensive wars have their own karma, and one particular to Israel:


Quote:

The success of the campaign must have surprised the Israelis. However, it also gave them a major problem that was to prove a major problem for the Israeli government for decades. By capturing the Sinai, the Golan Heights and the West Bank of the Jordan River, the Israelis had captured for themselves areas of great strategic value. However, the West Bank also contained over 600,000 Arabs who now came under Israeli administration. Their plight led many young Arabs into joining the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO), a group that the Israelis deemed a terrorist organisation. Israeli domestic policies became a lot more complicated after the military successes of June 1967.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/six_day_war_1967.htm

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

Had the Arabs recognised it also as it was in 1948, expansion would have been impossible as there would have been no war.

In case you haven't noticed, Israel is not exactly averse to snubbing international opinion in order to achieve its goals. And as we are seeing now with the (illegal) settlement expansions - aka 'creating facts on the ground' - Israel doesn't always need war to annex the territory they desire. With the zionists track record - observed by Lord Curzon, and betrayed by the musings of Ben-Gurion, Hertzl and many others, you'd be naive to the extreme to think that had the partition plan been agreed on by both sides, the zionists would have been content with the Palestinians building there own state on the very land the zionists had always claimed as there own.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57am:

you have a very anti-jewish mind on the history of the region.

Well yes you would say that. Whenever compelling evidence is presented to you that dents your rose-tinted view of Israeli history, you've nothing left but to pull out the anti-semitism card.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

Show how the Arabs force us to defend ourselves every generation?

You are in your element when you can frame this in military-self-defence terms. But the self-defence argument falls flat when looking at the real issues shaping the Palestinian question today - the expansion of the settlements, the unfair allocation of water, and the day-to-day administration of the west bank that is designed to make any sort of long-term viability for Palestinian urban centres (eg building restrictions, discontiguity of areas A and B) simply impossible. These things not only have zero to do with defending Israeli citizens, they undeniably put Israelis in greater danger.

One of my family most treasured possessions is a photograph of my father and my uncle sitting on a tank in the Sinai in 1967 holding between them the Star of David,

It says everything this photo.

If you want to be a aggressor you picked the wrong people to fight Egypt.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 5:28pm:

One of my family most treasured possessions is a photograph of my father and my uncle sitting on a tank in the Sinai in 1967 holding between them the Star of David, It says everything this photo. If you want to be a aggressor you picked the wrong people to fight Egypt.

Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands.

Jews went around and killed previous prophets, I feel sorry for the Palestinians who have to live under jewish rule.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 2:36pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 12:12pm: Had the Arabs recognised it also as it was in 1948, expansion would have been impossible as there would have been no war. In case you haven't noticed, Israel is not exactly averse to snubbing international opinion in order to achieve its goals.

Yes, Israel does everything and anything in self-defence, even defy the UN general Assembly.

But there is the point - in self-defence. If the Arabs had recognised Israel, like the rest of the world, and hadn't attacked it, there would be NO need for Israel to defend itself. There is no ongoing war over Alsace-Lorraine, Silesia, Schleswig-Holstein, Transylvania, South Tyrol, etc, etc.


Arabs put down their weapons and recognise Israel = peace.
Israel put down its weapons = holocaust mark 2 (or I should say holocaust mark 487). Israel is duty bound to defy the UN as long as the UN doesn't compel the Arabs to recognise Israel.

Because of the Koran-based hatred of the Jews, the Arabs cannot even begin to look at the story of the Jews from the Jews' perspective. There are no free and open Muslim association in the Arab world openly and safely agitating for the recognition of Israel - but you have plenty of Jews, in Israel and around the world, looking at the Pallos sympathetically and agitating for them without being anti Israel or anti-Jew - and then some who are actually both...
But Muslims are trapped in the command to exterminate the Jews and so to have a Jewish state in what they falsely claim to be 'Muslim lands' is a major religio-political problem and a dangerous contradiction of Koranic soothsaying.

And all the Western Jew-haters rally around the Pallos and Islam, for here is a Judenfrei ideology that predates the Nazis.

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:03pm:

But there is the point - in self-defence. If the Arabs had recognised Israel, like the rest of the world, and hadn't attacked it, there would be NO need for Israel to defend itself.

Soren I've just given you ample evidence that zionists at the time were gunning for the entire land of Palestine - and to hell with the natives. What evidence do you have that Israel would abandon that ambition and be contented with their allotted territory? Zip, zilch nada.

Everything is the Palestinian's fault, you cover your ears and your eyes to any evidence that suggests that maybe the Israelis are culpable as well. Now where have I seen that before?

There is not one Israeli soldier in the Gaza gandalf.

We also pull out of areas of the West Bank of the Jordan too.

We didn't have to but see how we are repaid?
Rockets and threats.

I myself have had a Molotov cocktail and stones throwed at me in the West Bank.

Quote:

Soren I've just given you ample evidence that zionists at the time were gunning for the entire land of Palestine

Isn't that like insisting that Osama Bin Laden is ample evidence that all Muslims are evil? Or does your special logic only apply to The Jews?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:09pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:03pm: But there is the point - in self-defence. If the Arabs had recognised Israel, like the rest of the world, and hadn't attacked it, there would be NO need for Israel to defend itself. Soren I've just given you ample evidence that zionists at the time

No, you didn't - you gave evidence of private letters and sentiments pre-dating the declaration of Israel by some 20+ years. You have not given any evidence that Israel would have continued to wage war against the Arabs even if it had been recognised as of the 1948 borders.


Here's some education:

Watch Claude Lanzmann's Shoah and Tzahal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XNIrrJe_7g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYFCf-lmNeQ


I am with Israel. It's not perfect but it's right.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:09pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:03pm: But there is the point - in self-defence. If the Arabs had recognised Israel, like the rest of the world, and hadn't attacked it, there would be NO need for Israel to defend itself. Soren I've just given you ample evidence that zionists at the time were gunning for the entire land of Palestine - and to hell with the natives. What evidence do you have that Israel would abandon that ambition and be contented with their allotted territory? Zip, zilch nada. Everything is the Palestinian's fault, you cover your ears and your eyes to any evidence that suggests that maybe the Israelis are culpable as well. Now where have I seen that before?

There was no evidence.
Ben Gurion is a hero and he should not be spoken of this way.

freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:17pm:

Isn't that like insisting that Osama Bin Laden is ample evidence that all Muslims are evil? Or does your special logic only apply to The Jews?

How? Ben-Gurion was a mainstream zionist leader, who went on to become PM of Israel on several occassions. Then you have two other future Israeli PMs who were active members of a known terrorist organisation. One of these authorised the assassination of a Swedish diplomat who was attempting to broker a two state solution. The terrorist attack that killed the most number of innocent people in the whole history of the Isreal-Palestine conflict was committed by zionists. In 2006 Benjamin Netanyahu and other promient Israeli leaders held a ceremony to honour this atrocity that killed 91 civilians. Another future PM admitted to ethnically cleansing some 50 thousand arab residents from two cities during the 1948 war. And yet another future PM took a front seat at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps as christian militias massacred up to 3500 Palestinian refugees. Israel's own commission into the atrocity found Ariel Sharon "personally responsible".

Fast forward to operation Cast Lead - to which Avram here is so proud of participating in (a war started because Israel broke the ceasefire that Hamas was abiding by) - we have a war of "self defense" in which Gaza's only poultry factory is bulldozed to the ground with 10s of thousands of live chickens insde, and in which Gaza's main flour mill is deliberately destroyed.

Israel is a terrorist state through and through.

Hamas fired 300 rockets at Ashdod before Cast Lead started.

I know this personally and helped clear a broken wall at a school from rocket fire.

You know what else I saw in Cast Lead gandalf?
We are fired on from civilian apartment buildings.

Civilian!

So we can't call F-16 strikes because they hide behind their women.

We (and me personally) try to not hit their women and under 18s.
They target ours.

Cast Lead was a defensive operation. You know this because we left didn't we?

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 6:51pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 5:28pm: One of my family most treasured possessions is a photograph of my father and my uncle sitting on a tank in the Sinai in 1967 holding between them the Star of David, It says everything this photo. If you want to be a aggressor you picked the wrong people to fight Egypt. Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands.

"Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands TANKS."





Quote:

Jews went around and killed previous prophets, I feel sorry for the Palestinians who have to live under jewish rule.

The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians.

The 'Palestinians' have a homeland.

And, so do the Jewish people.

Yadda makes the good posts.

He is a friend of the Jews!  :)

Like my family before me , I wish I could show a proud photo I have of me stood in front of the big picture of Arafat after we have captured the Gaza advancement in Cast Lead.
Unfortunately though it is not compliant with IDF to display personal photographs from this time.

But I was happy. We were making the people of South Israel safe.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

Hamas fired 300 rockets at Ashdod before Cast Lead started. I know this personally and helped clear a broken wall at a school from rocket fire. You know what else I saw in Cast Lead gandalf? We are fired on from civilian apartment buildings. Civilian! So we can't call F-16 strikes because they hide behind their women. We (and me personally) try to not hit their women and under 18s. They target ours. Cast Lead was a defensive operation. You know this because we left didn't we?

If you don't want to be fired on then maybe you should stop slaughtering people and stealing there lands.

Jews hardly fight a fair war.The palestininas have no tanks,airplanes, army, high tech weapons, cause there locked them up in a land called gaza.

Then the jews beg America to provide them the latest weapons and billions of dollars to rally against a defenceless Palestinian population.

Horseshit

Where do you think their rockets come from?

You think they make them in the Gaza?

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

shockresist wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:51pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 5:28pm: One of my family most treasured possessions is a photograph of my father and my uncle sitting on a tank in the Sinai in 1967 holding between them the Star of David, It says everything this photo. If you want to be a aggressor you picked the wrong people to fight Egypt. Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands. "Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands TANKS." Quote: Jews went around and killed previous prophets, I feel sorry for the Palestinians who have to live under jewish rule. The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people.

If the jews love America so much and request billions from them each year, then why don't the jews build a jewish state in America.

As Ariel Sharon says " Don't worry about American pressure, we jews run America".

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 8:21pm:

Horseshit Where do you think their rockets come from? You think they make them in the Gaza?

Jews can have weapons but Muslims cant?

Are you going to give up your WMD's or are jews some type of special people who can only have WMD?

Gaddafi gave up his weapons, Saddam had no weapons, when are the jews going to give up there arsenal?

Israel has military artillery to defend itself.

That is how it is.

We will never be threatened by the Arabs and back down.
Understand this.

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 8:21pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm: shockresist wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 6:51pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 5:28pm: One of my family most treasured possessions is a photograph of my father and my uncle sitting on a tank in the Sinai in 1967 holding between them the Star of David, It says everything this photo. If you want to be a aggressor you picked the wrong people to fight Egypt. Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands. "Of course they were sitting on a tank, they are agrressors and go around stealing other people lands TANKS." Quote: Jews went around and killed previous prophets, I feel sorry for the Palestinians who have to live under jewish rule. The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people. If the jews love America so much and request billions from them each year, then why don't the jews build a jewish state in America. As Ariel Sharon says " Don't worry about American pressure, we jews run America".

"If the jews love America so much......"


The Jewish people love eretz Israel,    ....so much.




1 Kings 8:1
Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion.

Psalms 48:1
Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2  Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Psalms 50:1
The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2  Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3  Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4  He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Psalms 65:1
Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
2  O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
3  Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

++
Psalms 69:34
Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein.
35  For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession.
36  The seed also of his servants shall inherit it: and they that love his name shall dwell therein.

++
Psalms 87:1
His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2  The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3  Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
4  I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5  And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

++
Psalms 129:4
The LORD is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked.
5  Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion.






The state of Israel, 1948....

Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6  A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9  Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10  Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11  That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12  For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13  As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14  And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.



....many, many more ref's to 'Zion' in the Bible.

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 8:26pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 8:21pm: Horseshit Where do you think their rockets come from? You think they make them in the Gaza? Jews can have weapons but Muslims cant? Are you going to give up your WMD's or are jews some type of special people who can only have WMD? Gaddafi gave up his weapons, Saddam had no weapons, when are the jews going to give up there arsenal?

To Israel.....

To God's people.....

Isaiah 54:17
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.




In this age, the land of 'Israel', is 'a line in the sand' issue.

Those [moslems and non-moslems] who condemn Israel, today, are choosing to fight against God.

The Jewish people will be redeemed.

Their enemies will be destroyed.i

Isaiah 40:1
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2  Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.



To Israel....

Isaiah 54:4
Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5  For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6  For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7  For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people.

Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan?

As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK?

My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land.

And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered.

Stop using the word occupation

So I was born in Haifa.

Should I go back to Czeska Republic?

Do you apply same rules or just from a anti Semitic views?

Gandalf, what do you see as the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:12pm:

o I was born in Haifa. Should I go back to Czeska Republic? Do you apply same rules or just from a anti Semitic views?

Pay attention to the thread Avram - ironically, thats the exact same question I posed to Yadda. For it is HE who is peddling this spurious argument about ethnically based birthright, not me.

It might surprise you that never have I proposed or even supported any notion that suggests the jewish population should up and leave the region. However I equally don't support a state that must necessarily keep its thumb on a whole section of the population in order to maintain its very existence. I support a multi-ethnic single state in which arabs and jews coexist peacefully as equals.

Gandalf

1. We have 1m Arab Israelis
2. Arabs are allowed to vote fully in Knesset elections
3. Israel offers all residents of the disputed zones rights of representation
4. A Arab Israeli is one of most senior officers in the IDF

How is this for your multi ethnic solution?

In opposition,
Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Iran, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi does not even allow me to enter their country.

freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:21pm:

Gandalf, what do you see as the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict?

Good question!

The two state solution is dead. A Palestinian state consisting of a patchwork of discontiguous populations across the West Bank has long since been untenable. Israel has been successful in their goal of creating "facts on the ground" to ensure this.

Unfortunately for Israel, this has created a long term dilemma: which is the near inevitability of the destruction of the Israeli state. Had a viable Palestinian state been achievable along the 1967 green line, Israel could have ended their occupation, created buffer regions between them and the Palestinians, and consolidated their state within the green line borders. Now, they are stuck with an angry occupied arab population, which still has relatively high birth rates. The long term demographic demise of the "jewish" state has been assured.

Therefore, the long term solution points to only one thing: the dismantling of the apartheid regime, and in its place the creation of a multi-ethnic single state, in which arabs and jews are equal citizens.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

Gandalf 1. We have 1m Arab Israelis 2. Arabs are allowed to vote fully in Knesset elections 3. Israel offers all residents of the disputed zones rights of representation 4. A Arab Israeli is one of most senior officers in the IDF How is this for your multi ethnic solution?

Thats a good start Avram. Now all you have to do is extend these privileges to the almost 4 million West Bank and Gazan arabs.

Gandalf I have explained to you why there is checkpoints and Israeli control in parts of West Bank.
Have you been there?
The Israeli sections keep security for the settlements and ensure there isn't attacks on Jewish people there.

The checkpoints are not too delaying most of the time.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:41pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:33pm: Gandalf 1. We have 1m Arab Israelis 2. Arabs are allowed to vote fully in Knesset elections 3. Israel offers all residents of the disputed zones rights of representation 4. A Arab Israeli is one of most senior officers in the IDF How is this for your multi ethnic solution? Thats a good start Avram. Now all you have to do is extend these privileges to the almost 4 million West Bank and Gazan arabs.

We did offer them rights and they refuse.

How about they stop throwing rocks at me everyday?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:21pm: Gandalf, what do you see as the solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict? Good question! The two state solution is dead. A Palestinian state consisting of a patchwork of discontiguous populations across the West Bank has long since been untenable. Israel has been successful in their goal of creating "facts on the ground" to ensure this. Unfortunately for Israel, this has created a long term dilemma: which is the near inevitability of the destruction of the Israeli state. Had a viable Palestinian state been achievable along the 1967 green line, Israel could have ended their occupation, created buffer regions between them and the Palestinians, and consolidated their state within the green line borders. Now, they are stuck with an angry occupied arab population, which still has relatively high birth rates. The long term demographic demise of the "jewish" state has been assured. Therefore, the long term solution points to only one thing: the dismantling of the apartheid regime, and in its place the creation of a multi-ethnic single state, in which arabs and jews are equal citizens.

So back to 1950, only this time they have learned to get along?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm: The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people. Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan?

gandalf,

I do NOT 'identify' with 'the Palestinian christian population'.

What are 'christendom's most holy sites', to me ???






Who are 'the Palestinian christian population' serving [in choosing to serve the ends and objectives of ISLAMISTS - people who curse, oppress, and murder Christians those who seek God] ?

God ?


Q.
Do 'the Palestinian christian population' seek the praise of men, or, the praise of God ?

IMO, 'the Palestinian christian population' are men pleaser's [...just like many, many, Christians are, today].

Jesus wasn't a 'Christian'.

The man Jesus, was a Torah observant Jewish man, and a servant of God.


Malachi 3:14
Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15  And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16  Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17  And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.i
Quote:

As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK?

No.i


Quote:

My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land.

No argument.

e.g.
Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

e.g.
Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...


gandalf,

You KNOW, what the argument is - AND YET YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ARGUMENT.

On your head be it - the deceit, the lawlessness, the wickedness you have chosen.


p.s.
The concession to the stranger, in the law of God [in the Torah], is NOT a concession for any stranger to engage in lawlessness.

The stranger who is a murderer, is still condemned and killed by the law [of God].

The stranger who is a murderer, is not a 'victim' - except that he is a victim, of his own wicked motives.i


Quote:

And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered.

I used the term; 'ethnic Jordanians' simply as an 'identifier' for those 'Palestinian' people - who are engaging in lawlessness and destruction and murder within Israel - people who are trying to destroy the State of Israel.

Yes Yadda,  ;)



"Eretz Israel yafa
Eretz Israel porachat
At yoshva ba vetzofa
At tzofa ba vezorachat"

For my non Hebrew friends

Israel is beautiful
Israel is blooming
You sit and watch
You look at her, and shine.

Facts on the ground - 6.5 million Jews in Israel = Israel is a Jewish country.

Gandy - can you accept that? If not - what do you propose? As a Muslim, what do you say should happen to the Jews of Israel?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:27pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:12pm: o I was born in Haifa. Should I go back to Czeska Republic? Do you apply same rules or just from a anti Semitic views? Pay attention to the thread Avram - ironically, thats the exact same question I posed to Yadda. For it is HE who is peddling this spurious argument about ethnically based birthright, not me. It might surprise you that never have I proposed or even supported any notion that suggests the jewish population should up and leave the region. However I equally don't support a state that must necessarily keep its thumb on a whole section of the population in order to maintain its very existence. I support a multi-ethnic single state in which arabs and jews coexist peacefully as equals.

gandalf,

You are lying.             100 x  You are lying.

How can i know that ?



You have declared that you are a moslem.

No moslem, can accept the State of Israel, as a non-ISLAMIC entity, can be permitted to make and enforce laws, which moslems must obey.

Moslems believe only, that all non-ISLAMIC jurisdictions must be destroyed.

And that Sharia law must be imposed - everywhere.

gandalf,

If you deny that 'universal' ISLAMIC intent, then under what validity, do you claim to be a moslem ?





You are so, so, deceitful gandalf.

You are a moslem.

But i repeat myself.

Gandalf - you are a Muslim?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

Gandalf 1. We have 1m Arab Israelis 2. Arabs are allowed to vote fully in Knesset elections 3. Israel offers all residents of the disputed zones rights of representation 4. A Arab Israeli is one of most senior officers in the IDF How is this for your multi ethnic solution? In opposition, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Iran, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi does not even allow me to enter their country.

Sounds to me, like discrimination.

Sounds to me, like RACISM.

Sounds to me, like religious bigotry - by ISLAMISTS/moslems.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:01pm:

Gandalf - you are a Muslim?

He claims to be.

But he also claims to be a 'moderate' moslem.



But there ain't no such animal.

i.e.
What is a moslem ???

Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.


A follower of ISLAM.


ISLAM teaches all moslems;

"Kill those who reject ISLAM. In rejecting ISLAM they insult Allah, and they have no protector."

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

Gandalf 1. We have 1m Arab Israelis 2. Arabs are allowed to vote fully in Knesset elections 3. Israel offers all residents of the disputed zones rights of representation 4. A Arab Israeli is one of most senior officers in the IDF How is this for your multi ethnic solution? In opposition, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Iran, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi does not even allow me to enter their country.

Can Malaysian muslims enter your country?

I don't blame the Arab states for not letting in Jews.You are all spies.

In January for example, a Israeli spy was caught in Lebanon.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:01pm:

Gandalf - you are a Muslim?

;D ;D

No. He's a moderate Muslim.  Apparently there is a big difference.

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:33pm: Gandalf 1. We have 1m Arab Israelis 2. Arabs are allowed to vote fully in Knesset elections 3. Israel offers all residents of the disputed zones rights of representation 4. A Arab Israeli is one of most senior officers in the IDF How is this for your multi ethnic solution? In opposition, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Iran, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi does not even allow me to enter their country. Can Malaysian muslims enter your country? I don't blame the Arab states for not letting in Jews.You are all spies. In January for example, a Israeli spy was caught in Lebanon.

So what?
You don't have spies?

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:27pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:12pm: o I was born in Haifa. Should I go back to Czeska Republic? Do you apply same rules or just from a anti Semitic views? Pay attention to the thread Avram - ironically, thats the exact same question I posed to Yadda. For it is HE who is peddling this spurious argument about ethnically based birthright, not me. It might surprise you that never have I proposed or even supported any notion that suggests the jewish population should up and leave the region. However I equally don't support a state that must necessarily keep its thumb on a whole section of the population in order to maintain its very existence. I support a multi-ethnic single state in which arabs and jews coexist peacefully as equals. gandalf, You are lying.             100 x  You are lying. How can i know that ? You have declared that you are a moslem. No moslem, can accept the State of Israel, as a non-ISLAMIC entity, can be permitted to make and enforce laws, which moslems must obey. Moslems believe only, that all non-ISLAMIC jurisdictions must be destroyed. And that Sharia law must be imposed - everywhere. gandalf, If you deny that 'universal' ISLAMIC intent, then under what validity, do you claim to be a moslem ? You are so, so, deceitful gandalf. You are a moslem. But i repeat myself.

There is a movement against the State of Israel, with a prominent atheist leader Stephen Hawkings boycotting a visit to Israel.



Stephen Hawking boycotting Israel in solidarity with Palestine

Cambridge - The world's most famous scientist has announced that he will boycott an upcoming Israeli conference to show solidarity with Palestinian academics and protest Israeli's oppressive occupation of Palestine.

The BBC reports that renowned British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking is supporting the worldwide academic boycott of Israel on the "unanimous advice" of his Palestinian contacts.

According to a statement published by the British Committee for the Universities of Palestine (BRICUP):
Professor Stephen Hawking has declined his invitation to attend the Israeli Presidential Conference Facing Tomorrow 2013, due to take place in Jerusalem on 18-20 June. This is his independent decision to respect the boycott, based on his knowledge of Palestine, and on the unanimous advice of his own academic contacts there.

Hawking, 71, had originally planned to attend the conference and criticize the Israeli government in a speech, but decided not to travel to Israel. Part of the reason for this is that he is in very poor health.

Hawking joins a growing number of British personalities who have rejected invitations to visit Israel.

Former Pink Floyd front man Roger Waters is the most famous Briton to boycott Israel, accusing the Israeli government of "running an apartheid regime" and "laying waste to most of Lebanon."

The Israel apartheid analogy has been made by South African apartheid survivor and Nobel Peace laureate Desmond Tutu, as well as his fellow Nobel Peace Prize winners Jimmy Carter, the former US president, and Mairead Maguire, an Irish peace activist. Some critics go even further and accuse Israel of ethnically cleansing Palestinians by continued illegal settler colonization of the occupied West Bank.

In 2010, rocker Elvis Costello cancelled two scheduled concerts in Israel, citing the "deplorable conditions that visit intimidation, humiliation or much worse on Palestinian civilians."

Super-producer Brian Eno, singer Annie Lennox-- who described Israel's 2008-09 Gaza offensive as "pornography of destruction"-- and award-winning filmmaker Mike Leigh have also boycotted Israel.
Last year, American music legend Stevie Wonder also canceled a scheduled US fund-raising performance benefiting the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).

In the academic world, the Teachers' Union of Ireland last month became the first European lecturers' association to back a boycott of Israel, denouncing "Israeli militarism, occupation and apartheid." In the United States, the Association for Asian American Studies also voted last month to support a boycott of Israeli academic institutions "in protest of the illegal occupation of Palestine," among other crimes and human rights violations. The group is the first US-based academic association to support the boycot, divestment and sanction (BDS) movement.

The Raw Story reports that although Hawking has visited Israel four times in the past, most recently in 2006, he has since become a vocal critic of the Jewish State's policies and actions. He called the 2008-09 'Cast Lead' invasion of Gaza "plain out of proportion," adding that "the situation is like that of (apartheid) South Africa before 1990 and cannot continue."

Israel supporters reacted angrily to Hawking's decision to boycott Israel.

"The academic boycott against Israel is in our view outrageous and improper, certainly for someone for whom the spirit of liberty lies at the basis of his human and academic mission," Israel Maimon, chairman of the Israeli Presidential Conference, said in a statement.

"Rather than caving in to pressure from political extremists, active participation in such events is a far more constructive way to promote progress an

Actually the Arab states pretty much created Israel (and Mossad) by forcing Jews to flee to Israel at an even greater pace than Europe did.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:12pm:

shockresist wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 10:10pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:33pm: Gandalf 1. We have 1m Arab Israelis 2. Arabs are allowed to vote fully in Knesset elections 3. Israel offers all residents of the disputed zones rights of representation 4. A Arab Israeli is one of most senior officers in the IDF How is this for your multi ethnic solution? In opposition, Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Iran, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi does not even allow me to enter their country. Can Malaysian muslims enter your country? I don't blame the Arab states for not letting in Jews.You are all spies. In January for example, a Israeli spy was caught in Lebanon. So what? You don't have spies?

You have a lot of trouble answering my questions.

Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

shockresist wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 8:26pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 8:21pm: Horseshit Where do you think their rockets come from? You think they make them in the Gaza? Jews can have weapons but Muslims cant? Are you going to give up your WMD's or are jews some type of special people who can only have WMD? Gaddafi gave up his weapons, Saddam had no weapons, when are the jews going to give up there arsenal? To Israel..... To God's people..... Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD. In this age, the land of 'Israel', is 'a line in the sand' issue. Those [moslems and non-moslems] who condemn Israel, today, are choosing to fight against God. The Jewish people will be redeemed. Their enemies will be destroyed.i Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2  Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. To Israel.... Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5  For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6  For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7  For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Whay bible are you referring to?The one which has been changed, modified and full of mistakes?

What God would make a Book full of mistakes?

What God produces a book full of contradictions?

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:19pm:

Whay bible are you referring to?The one which has been changed, modified and full of mistakes? What God would make a Book full of mistakes? What God produces a book full of contradictions?

:)i


Psalms 37:25
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
26  He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
27  Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28  For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29  The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
30  The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
32  The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33  The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
34  Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
35  I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36  Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
37  Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
38  But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
39  But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
40  And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Hawking, 71, had originally planned to attend the conference and criticize the Israeli government in a speech, but decided not to travel to Israel. Part of the reason for this is that he is in very poor health.

Get back to us when Hawking or a Muslim for that matter conducts Beethoven's 9th symphony. Until then it's just stupid posturing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vypj9NCINdM
As the maestro says, 'Look for the solution in yourself'.

Until there is a performance of the 9th in Mecca, Muslims can frankly bugger off. Until then, they must recognise that they are the barbarians of the ages. Instead of performing the brotherhood of man, they give us beheadings of all and sundry in the four corners of the earth. And the while they bleat victimhood.
Absolutely discredited.

shockresist wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:19pm:

Whay bible are you referring to?The one which has been changed, modified and full of mistakes? What God would make a Book full of mistakes? What God produces a book full of contradictions?

:)



shock,

You are mistaken.



The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, go quite a way to proving [at least] the integrity of the O.T. Jewish Bible...

Google;
dead sea scrolls, biblical integrity





compare that, with the hits for;

Google;
Quranic Manuscripts Sana




It is the Koran which is the fabrication.
The Sana'a mosque manuscripts prove it.



Quote:

Would the Earliest Quranic Manuscripts of Sana’a Spell the Downfall of Islam? Sunday, 28 June 2009 12:56 The earliest Quranic manuscripts discovered in the Sana'a mosque in Yemen not only differ from the standard version, but disagree amongst themselves. Since Muslims believe that the Quran contains the verses of Allah word for word, the new finds may unravel the 'Pandora's Box' for Islam...

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46

Hawking has since stated that he was not boycotting Israel. Lets not get distracted with red herrings.


Yadda wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

But he also claims to be a 'moderate' moslem.

I don't believe I have ever used that term to describe myself.


freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:47pm:

So back to 1950, only this time they have learned to get along?

1950? By then the ethnic cleansing had already finished (round 1 anyway). You would have to go back to well before the end of the second world war - before Mr Begin and his merry crew started raiding arab towns and terrorised them into leaving. But even as early as 1920 you had the previously mentioned observation from the British foreign office about zionist provocations. Perhaps 1915 is a good year, when the British reached an agreement with the arabs that Palestine would become part of an arab state. When the Balfour declaration came out in 1917, the arabs were understandably peeved the British had gone back on their word. As one contemporary petition stated:


Quote:

we always sympathized profoundly with the persecuted Jews and their misfortunes in other countries... but there is wide difference between such sympathy and the acceptance of such a nation..ruling over us and disposing of our affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#Arab_opposition


freediver wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 10:14pm:

Actually the Arab states pretty much created Israel (and Mossad) by forcing Jews to flee to Israel at an even greater pace than Europe did

Greater pace? I don't think so. The jewish population had its most dramatic rise between about the first world war and 1947
- emigration from arab countries didn't start until 1948 - and was relatively slow.


Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

Facts on the ground - 6.5 million Jews in Israel = Israel is a Jewish country. Gandy - can you accept that? If not - what do you propose? As a Muslim, what do you say should happen to the Jews of Israel?

Lets talk about the "jewishness" of the country: Israel currently has a jewish population of around 6.5 million jewish citizens, with around 1.6 million arab citizens. On top of that there are around 4 million arab non-citizens, who barring a massive ethnic cleansing project are not going anywhere. Birth rates amongst both arab populations are higher than than the jewish population - not by a great amount, but higher.

Now if we accept the reality that the two state solution is dead, what are the options? Continue the occupation and refusal of equal rights to the Palestinians? Not practical. Allow Jordan and Egypt to annex the WB and Gaza respectively, and absorb the Palestinians into those countries? Not going to be allowed by either side. The only other option left is for Israel to annex the whole of Palestine, and grant citizenship and equal rights to the entire population. What does that mean for the jewish state? Well straight away we have a "jewish" state that is almost 50% non-jewish. With birth rates continuing as they are now, the jews will quickly become a minority. Eventually, the "jewishness" of the state will be democratically removed.

Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 10:09pm: But he also claims to be a 'moderate' moslem. I don't believe I have ever used that term to describe myself.

the threats posed by Islam
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1368872008/15#15

Quote:

"For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism."

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

Hawking has since stated that he was not boycotting Israel. Lets not get distracted with red herrings. Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 10:09pm: But he also claims to be a 'moderate' moslem. I don't believe I have ever used that term to describe myself.

Fine. You are an immoderate Muslim then. Apparently that is the only permitted way to be a Muslim.

In any case, culturally you and all other Muslims who adhere to Islam are culturally negligible if not outright dangerous. You are the 21st century's Calvinists - to be resisted and rejected on very level, not least on the grounds that you are in bad taste and you advocate barbarity -sharia law. You would outlaw art and music. You would forbid Beethoven, Chopin, Mozart, Schubert. You would shut art galleries and prohibit  poetry and dance.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm: The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people. Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan? As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK? My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land. And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered.

You’re asking Y these questions, G?

This is a soul who literally believes Leviticus is modern history.

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57pm:

Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

Quite. Just like the Aborigines, eh?

Marvellous stuff.

Karnal wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:34am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:03pm: Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm: The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people. Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan? As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK? My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land. And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered. You’re asking Y these questions, G? This is a soul who literally believes Leviticus is modern history.

K,

Why do you fear/hate Leviticus so much ?

Have you, done anything wrong ?




Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.



Those Torah laws were/are only applicable for a people who were/are in-covenant with their God.

The outer heathen nations, and heathens [like yourself K], had their own laws.        ;D        :D
....LOL, as if!!!



Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


.....who could Jesus be talking about, K ???




Oooooooow! ....there are very scary things, in the darkness, K!!!             :'(

....things which are a lot scarier than yourself,
.....you will learn.

In your new home!

No ?

Ah, its all a faerie tale anyway, eh K ?           :P

And only little children, are afraid of the dark.

Right ?

Soren wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:57pm:

Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

I do. The question is, why don't you accept the Palestinian's right to their own country in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?


Soren wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 12:29am:

In any case, culturally you and all other Muslims... blah blah blah

Thats right Soren - if all else fails, fall back on the irrational muslim meme. Never failed you before right?

The thing is, this topic of Palestinian rights is not primarily being pushed by the muslim community - its westerners, including prominent jews like Noam Chomsky and Uri Avnery. We get a very skewed perspective here in Australia - because Australia is one of the only countries on earth that blindly follows the US policy on Israel - and both major political parties actively stifle debate on the subject. Go to Europe, and the sort of views I am putting forward are far more mainstream, and criticism of Israel is openly and rationally discussed.

This is not a muslim vs jew issue.

Chomsky?

I will tell you now he is a sell out and a disgrace.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 10:14pm: Actually the Arab states pretty much created Israel (and Mossad) by forcing Jews to flee to Israel at an even greater pace than Europe did Greater pace? I don't think so. The jewish population had its most dramatic rise between about the first world war and 1947 - emigration from arab countries didn't start until 1948 - and was relatively slow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

From the onset of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries; 260,000 of them reached Israel between 1948 and 1951 and amounted for 56% of the total immigration to the newly founded State of Israel.[2] 600,000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries had reached Israel by 1972.[3][4][5] By the Yom Kippur War of 1973, most of the Jewish communities throughout the Arab World, as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan, were practically non-existent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Aliyah_from_Arab_countries

Aliyah Bet: Illegal immigration (1933–1948)

during the 14 years of its operation, 110,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine

So tell us Gandalf, which one looks more significant to you? People (especially Muslims) like to associate Israel with European interference and the aftermath of the holocaust, yet it was Arabs themselves who contributed most to it. Apparently they mistook it for a concentration camp.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

Soren wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 11:57pm: Why don't you accept the Jews' right to their own country, in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland? I do. The question is, why don't you accept the Palestinian's right to their own country in the place that is, by all accounts, their homeland?

Let me reply, for now.

'Palestinians' cannot live along side the Jewish people, because many of the 'Palestinians' act like moslems.

i.e.
Wherever moslems [moslem communities] live, moslems cannot help themselves, but feel compelled to engage in committing 'lawful' atrocities, slaughtering both, other moslems and non-moslems.

Moslems are savages.

THAT is why moslems cannot be given a 'right' to live among other human beings.



Above, i said;
"....engage in committing 'lawful' atrocities.."

e.g.
"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

Moslems are savages.

Moslems believe in, engage in, 'lawful' lawlessness.

ISLAM makes lawful, every moslem lawlessness and savagery.

How ?

Allah himself, 'legitimises' moslem lawlessness and savagery against those who reject ISLAM.

Allah himself, is the reason why moslems can behave to atrociously, and yet, be acting so 'legally'.




"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11



Google;
how islam divides the world, Dar al-Harbi






Quote:

Soren wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 12:29am: In any case, culturally you and all other Muslims... blah blah blah Thats right Soren - if all else fails, fall back on the irrational muslim meme. Never failed you before right? The thing is, this topic of Palestinian rights is not primarily being pushed by the muslim community - its westerners, including prominent jews like Noam Chomsky and Uri Avnery. We get a very skewed perspective here in Australia - because Australia is one of the only countries on earth that blindly follows the US policy on Israel - and both major political parties actively stifle debate on the subject. Go to Europe, and the sort of views I am putting forward are far more mainstream, and criticism of Israel is openly and rationally discussed. This is not a muslim vs jew issue.

Yes Soren, go to Europe, where 'mainstream' moslems are eminently rational in their criticism of Israel and non-moslem entities and jurisdictions.             :P





IMAGE...
http://commentisfreewatch.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/death-to-israel-12.jpg
You infidels want world peace ?
Then you must give us moslems everything which we demand!!

And you MUST NOT turn around the boats!!
We moslems forbid you, from preventing our brothers in faith, from coming to your country in boats!!
You must continue to accept moslems, coming to your land.
Because more ISLAM and more moslems, are good for you, and for your nation.
Honest!








IMAGE...
http://www.thebuggyprofessor.org/uploadImages/GodBlessHitler.jpg
God bless Hitler?





IMAGE...
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/middleeast28_04.jpg
The real holocaust is coming?








IMAGE...
http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Isllam2.jpg
London, mainstream moslem street protests.
'Demonstrating' just how rational and 'peaceful' mainstream moslems really are.


THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"



Do you still remember what the ISLAMIC scholar said ???

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:18am:

Do you still remember what the ISLAMIC scholar said ??? "....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood." ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

gandalf,

Has the worldwide 'mainstream' moslem community EVER condemned the words and urgings of Sayyid Qutb ?

When did this occur ?

Link ?

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 2:11am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 12:34am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:03pm: Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm: The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people. Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan? As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK? My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land. And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered. You’re asking Y these questions, G? This is a soul who literally believes Leviticus is modern history. K, Why do you fear/hate Leviticus so much ? Have you, done anything wrong ? Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Those Torah laws were/are only applicable for a people who were/are in-covenant with their God. The outer heathen nations, and heathens [like yourself K], had their own laws.        ;D        :D ....LOL, as if!!! Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. .....who could Jesus be talking about, K ?

Not sure, Y. Who wrote the Book of Revelation?

Paul is hardly an expert on international law, eh?

Karnal wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 2:11am: Karnal wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 12:34am: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:03pm: Yadda wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 7:55pm: The 'Palestinians' are ethnic Jordanians. The 'Palestinians' have a homeland. And, so do the Jewish people. Yadda, serious question: what are your feelings of the Palestinian christian population who have been the caretakers of christendom's most holy sites for hundreds of years - many of whom have been forced to flee because of the Israeli occupation. Are they just intruders who should get on their bike back to Jordan? As to this slogan of yours, technically I, and most Australians are ethnically British. Should we all pack up and ship back to the UK? My view is that I am every bit as "native" as the blackest Aboriginal - because both of us were born here. Likewise, the Palestinian population that was uprooted in 1948 was native in the sense that most of them had been born there, and could claim heritage to that land. And what does "ethnically Jordanian" even mean? Jordan wasn't even created until 1922 - and it was an entirely artificial construct, created for British imperialist purposes. Is there even any such thing as "ethnically jordan"?? Linguistically, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian arabs are basically identical. There may not even be such a thing as a "Palestinian" ethnicity - but there most certainly was such a thing as Palestinian homes, farms and property that had existed for generations before their owners were forced to abandon them to make way for the creation of the jewish state. Dismissing these owners as "ethnically Jordanian" doesn't make up for the loss these people have suffered. You’re asking Y these questions, G? This is a soul who literally believes Leviticus is modern history. K, Why do you fear/hate Leviticus so much ? Have you, done anything wrong ? Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Those Torah laws were/are only applicable for a people who were/are in-covenant with their God. The outer heathen nations, and heathens [like yourself K], had their own laws.        ;D        :D ....LOL, as if!!! Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. .....who could Jesus be talking about, K ? Not sure, Y. Who wrote the Book of Revelation? Paul is hardly an expert on international law, eh?

John wrote the book of Revelation.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So. Moslems are savages. They cannot be given the right to live among decent human beings.

Support the two state solution, do you, Y?

Blessed are the peacemakers.

Karnal wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:58am:

So. Moslems are savages. They cannot be given the right to live among decent human beings.

No, they cannot.

Not while moslems choose to embrace a savage, lawless, philosophy like ISLAM.

ISLAM sanctifies and makes lawlessness among men, lawful !

ISLAM sanctifies and makes lawful - rape, murder, robbery, lying, deceit !

Lovely!  NOT!!!!!iQuote:

Support the two state solution, do you, Y?

They have Jordan, as a homeland.

The homeland of the Jewish people, is Israel.

e.g. K,
Ever heard of that historic local - JUDEA ????i
Quote:

Blessed are the peacemakers.

Indeed [seriously].


K,

Do you believe that you can make peace, establish peace among men, by appeasing wicked men ?

Is that how YOU propose to establish peace in the world, K ?

Are you proposing that every time that you are in dispute with a wicked person, that you will give them what they wish - so as to 'secure' peace with them ?

e.g.
If a wicked person is in dispute WITH YOUR CHILD, and [the wicked person] unilaterally decides to murder your child [to settle the dispute], are YOU going to agree to that circumstance K ?



p.s.

K.

Go to hell!

freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

during the 14 years of its operation, 110,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine

First of all, I wasn't talking about the 14 years, I was talking about the entire inter-war period - ~1918-1948. During that time the jewish population went from around 60k to over 600k


freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

So tell us Gandalf, which one looks more significant to you? People (especially Muslims) like to associate Israel with European interference and the aftermath of the holocaust, yet it was Arabs themselves who contributed most to it.

What are you talking about? Israel was created in 1948 - the jewish exodus from the arab world didn't even start until after that. Of course the creation of Israel was only possible by the mass exodus of jews from Europe - that enabled them to become a majority of the population in certain key centres.


freediver wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

Apparently they mistook it for a concentration camp.

It is trully pathetic when people attempt to draw some sort of moral equivalence between the muslim and European treatment of jews. Perhaps you can enlighten me and show me the muslim gas chambers and the 4+ million dead jews at the hands of the muslims?

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Are you proposing that every time that you are in dispute with a wicked person, that you will give them what they wish - so as to 'secure' peace with them ? e.g. If a wicked person is in dispute WITH YOUR CHILD, and [the wicked person] unilaterally decides to murder your child [to settle the dispute], are YOU going to agree to that circumstance K ?

Exodus 4:22
.....Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:28am:

freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 9:45am: Apparently they mistook it for a concentration camp. It is trully pathetic when people attempt to draw some sort of moral equivalence between the muslim and European treatment of jews. Perhaps you can enlighten me and show me the muslim gas chambers and the 4+ million dead jews at the hands of the muslims?

g,

Do moslems admit their errors, their wrong doings ?

Oh! Of course they do!         :P

Moslems always tell the truth, moslems never, ever, re-write history, to hide their crimes.        :P

Moslem have NEVER, EVER, done such a thing, have they!          :P








Armenian genocide.

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 10:18am:

Palestinians' cannot live along side the Jewish people, because many of the 'Palestinians' act like moslems. i.e. Wherever moslems [moslem communities] live, moslems cannot help themselves, but feel compelled to engage in committing 'lawful' atrocities, slaughtering both, other moslems and non-moslems.

Perhaps you can clear up my confusion then Yadda: there are currently around 1.6 million muslims living amongst the jews with full Israeli citizen rights. You may recall our zionist friend Avram giving a glowing account of how well they are integrated and how famously they get on with the jews.

How could this be Y? Shouldn't the jewish state have collapsed long ago by the "lawful" atrocities of these 5th columnists - going around slaughtering jews at every opportunity? How on earth could this state have survived with 20% of the population comprising of these "savages" who adhere to only one law: death and violence against non-muslims?

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:36am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 11:28am: freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 9:45am: Apparently they mistook it for a concentration camp. It is trully pathetic when people attempt to draw some sort of moral equivalence between the muslim and European treatment of jews. Perhaps you can enlighten me and show me the muslim gas chambers and the 4+ million dead jews at the hands of the muslims? g, Do moslems admit their errors, their wrong doings ? Oh! Of course they do!         :P Moslems always tell the truth, moslems never, ever, re-write history, to hide their crimes.        :P Moslem have NEVER, EVER, done such a thing, have they!          :P Armenian genocide.

ALL moslems, are idolaters!!!!!!

It is true.           :P

Moslems CLAIM that they worship a god called Allah.





But in truth, moslems all put on their rose coloured glasses, and worship a god called 'Kumbaya, lord'.

Honest.



Allah ?

Spit, spit!!!!!!!

I like Golda Meir's quotes regarding that mythical place palestine.

"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist".

And ain't these eternal truths

"Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us".

"We don’t thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient.

This last says it all.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen"





"

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:36am:

Do moslems admit their errors, their wrong doings ? Oh! Of course they do!         Tongue Moslems always tell the truth, moslems never, ever, re-write history, to hide their crimes.

Sort of reminds me of when I drew a comparison between the conquest of Jerusalem by the muslims, and the christians. Sparing of civilians and granting of religious freedom, versus wholesale slaughter of civilians and denial of jewish or muslim religious freedom. You dismissed it as muslim revisionism, yet never explained how the historical account is wrong. I have never read a historical account - muslim or non-muslim - that disputes the core elements of this version.

So we have here now a contention about the validity of comparing the scale of the holocaust to the scale of any single muslim atrocity against the jews throughout the history of jewish-muslim relations - and we get this such obvious diversion about the Armenian genocide and what not. Never mind the fact that I have never attempted to justify or whitewash muslim atrocities - such as the Armenian tragedy - rendering the entire point an irrelevant strawman.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:37am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 10:18am: Palestinians' cannot live along side the Jewish people, because many of the 'Palestinians' act like moslems. i.e. Wherever moslems [moslem communities] live, moslems cannot help themselves, but feel compelled to engage in committing 'lawful' atrocities, slaughtering both, other moslems and non-moslems. Perhaps you can clear up my confusion then Yadda: there are currently around 1.6 million muslims living amongst the jews with full Israeli citizen rights. You may recall our zionist friend Avram giving a glowing account of how well they are integrated and how famously they get on with the jews. How could this be Y? Shouldn't the jewish state have collapsed long ago by the "lawful" atrocities of these 5th columnists - going around slaughtering jews at every opportunity? How on earth could this state have survived with 20% of the population comprising of these "savages" who adhere to only one law: death and violence against non-muslims?

g,

Clearly, it is Israeli laws, which are protecting,    .......the Israelis, from the 'affections' of many of those moslems.



It is commonly known among us, that moslems are told by their imams/ISLAM that Jews are apes, that may be 'lawfully' killed.

So it is NOT, the good intentions, of Israeli moslems that is causing Israeli moslems to treat Israeli Jews with lawful respect.

Adamant wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:48am:

There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist

This misses the point I have been trying to make.

There were people living in what is now Israel - and who are no longer living there because of the creation of Israel. Their property and livelihoods had to be abandoned to facilitate the creation of Israel, and most of these people became refugees, living in limbo as stateless people to this very day. Whether these people were called "Palestinians" or "Syrians" or "Jordanians" matters not a damn thing to this fact.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:50am:

Yadda wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 11:36am: Do moslems admit their errors, their wrong doings ? Oh! Of course they do!         Tongue Moslems always tell the truth, moslems never, ever, re-write history, to hide their crimes. Sort of reminds me of when I drew a comparison between the conquest of Jerusalem by the muslims,......

Err, ancient history, which was re-written, by,           .......moslems, to make who, look good ?

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:56am:

Clearly, it is Israeli laws, which are protecting,    .......the Israelis, from the 'affections' of many of those moslems.

No Yadda, thats a complete copout. If 1.6 million people - 20% of the population really were as determined in their savagery as you make out, nothing - least of all Israeli laws - would be able to keep them in check. Israel is a prosperous nation with a first world economy. The Arab component of that state is not only coexisting, they are actively contributing to its prosperity. As Avram said, these people are holding high positions in the Israeli Armed Forces. Why don't they shoot a few jews in the back? Wouldn't be that hard.

Yadda wrote on Jun 29^th, 2013 at 11:15am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 10:58am: So. Moslems are savages. They cannot be given the right to live among decent human beings. No, they cannot. Not while moslems choose to embrace a savage, lawless, philosophy like ISLAM. ISLAM sanctifies and makes lawlessness among men, lawful ! ISLAM sanctifies and makes lawful - rape, murder, robbery, lying, deceit ! Lovely!  NOT!!!!!iQuote: Support the two state solution, do you, Y? They have Jordan, as a homeland. The homeland of the Jewish people, is Israel. e.g. K, Ever heard of that historic local - JUDEA ????i[quote]Blessed are the peacemakers.

Indeed [seriously].


K,

Do you believe that you can make peace, establish peace among men, by appeasing wicked men ?

Is that how YOU propose to establish peace in the world, K ?

Are you proposing that every time that you are in dispute with a wicked person, that you will give them what they wish - so as to 'secure' peace with them ?

e.g.
If a wicked person is in dispute WITH YOUR CHILD, and [the wicked person] unilaterally decides to murder your child [to settle the dispute], are YOU going to agree to that circumstance K ?



p.s.

K.

Go to hell!

[/quote]

You sound a bit angry there, Y. Bad night?

How do you apply your anti-wickedness strategy to Israel? The Moslems are inside the tent, as it were. They’re part of Israel’s body politic.

What do you do with them?