Quote:

Russian Lawmakers Pass Anti-Gay Bill in 436-0 Vote By NATALIYA VASILYEVA and MANSUR MIROVALEV Associated Press MOSCOW June 11, 2013 (AP) A bill that stigmatizes gay people and bans giving children any information about homosexuality won overwhelming approval Tuesday in Russia's lower house of parliament. Hours before the State Duma passed the Kremlin-backed law in a 436-0 vote with one abstention, more than two dozen protesters were attacked by hundreds of anti-gay activists and then detained by police. The bill banning the "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" still needs to be passed by the appointed upper house and signed into law by President Vladimir Putin, but neither step is in doubt. The measure is part of an effort to promote traditional Russian values instead of Western liberalism, which the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church see as corrupting Russian youth and contributing to the protests against Putin's rule. The only parliament member to abstain Tuesday was Ilya Ponomaryov, who has supported anti-Putin protesters despite belonging to a pro-Kremlin party. A widespread hostility to homosexuality is shared by much of Russia's political and religious elite. Lawmakers have accused gays of decreasing Russia's already low birth rates and said they should be barred from government jobs, undergo forced medical treatment or be exiled.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russian-parliament-vote-anti-gay-bill-19370947#.UblXJ5y0pHw

This is some disturbing sh!t. A text book example of top-down persecution of a minority. The thuggery against gays on the streets of Russia is merely following the example set by the legislators.

Put your wanger away if you are disturbed.
You don't bugger with Vlad the Impaler.

Vlad the impaler was Hungarian, not Russian.

Anyway, there seems to be a particularly virulent homophobia within the Russian orthodox church, and they are twisting the arms of Russian politicians. The government is also pandering to a populist anti-western sentiment.

And between the church and the government, homophobia and gay persecution seems to have well and trully filtered down into the grassroots level.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 13^th, 2013 at 11:00pm:

Vlad the impaler was Hungarian, not Russian. Anyway, there seems to be a particularly virulent homophobia within the Russian orthodox church, and they are twisting the arms of Russian politicians. The government is also pandering to a populist anti-western sentiment. And between the church and the government, homophobia and gay persecution seems to have well and trully filtered down into the grassroots level.

Vlad the impaler tried to keep the muslim barbarians out of his homeland. We desperately require someone of his skills in the west today!

Vlad The Put-in (not-yet quite an Impaler) is Russsshhhhian but he is trying to grow into the role, as it were.
Has divorced Ludmilla for starters. He must be in Karnal's rolodex already, fo' sho'.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 13^th, 2013 at 4:04pm:

Quote: Russian Lawmakers Pass Anti-Gay Bill in 436-0 Vote By NATALIYA VASILYEVA and MANSUR MIROVALEV Associated Press MOSCOW June 11, 2013 (AP) A bill that stigmatizes gay people and bans giving children any information about homosexuality won overwhelming approval Tuesday in Russia's lower house of parliament. Hours before the State Duma passed the Kremlin-backed law in a 436-0 vote with one abstention, more than two dozen protesters were attacked by hundreds of anti-gay activists and then detained by police. The bill banning the "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" still needs to be passed by the appointed upper house and signed into law by President Vladimir Putin, but neither step is in doubt. The measure is part of an effort to promote traditional Russian values instead of Western liberalism, which the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church see as corrupting Russian youth and contributing to the protests against Putin's rule. The only parliament member to abstain Tuesday was Ilya Ponomaryov, who has supported anti-Putin protesters despite belonging to a pro-Kremlin party. A widespread hostility to homosexuality is shared by much of Russia's political and religious elite. Lawmakers have accused gays of decreasing Russia's already low birth rates and said they should be barred from government jobs, undergo forced medical treatment or be exiled. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russian-parliament-vote-anti-gay-bill-19370947#.UblXJ5y0pHw This is some disturbing sh!t. A text book example of top-down persecution of a minority. The thuggery against gays on the streets of Russia is merely following the example set by the legislators.

The wider significance of this is that Russia is willing to make strong decisions that go against postmodern thinking. Russia is showing it won't descend into nihilism like the Western states have.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The states of Eastern Europe will become a power to be reckoned with in the future.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 13th, 2013 at 4:04pm: Quote: Russian Lawmakers Pass Anti-Gay Bill in 436-0 Vote By NATALIYA VASILYEVA and MANSUR MIROVALEV Associated Press MOSCOW June 11, 2013 (AP) A bill that stigmatizes gay people and bans giving children any information about homosexuality won overwhelming approval Tuesday in Russia's lower house of parliament. Hours before the State Duma passed the Kremlin-backed law in a 436-0 vote with one abstention, more than two dozen protesters were attacked by hundreds of anti-gay activists and then detained by police. The bill banning the "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" still needs to be passed by the appointed upper house and signed into law by President Vladimir Putin, but neither step is in doubt. The measure is part of an effort to promote traditional Russian values instead of Western liberalism, which the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church see as corrupting Russian youth and contributing to the protests against Putin's rule. The only parliament member to abstain Tuesday was Ilya Ponomaryov, who has supported anti-Putin protesters despite belonging to a pro-Kremlin party. A widespread hostility to homosexuality is shared by much of Russia's political and religious elite. Lawmakers have accused gays of decreasing Russia's already low birth rates and said they should be barred from government jobs, undergo forced medical treatment or be exiled. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russian-parliament-vote-anti-gay-bill-19370947#.UblXJ5y0pHw This is some disturbing sh!t. A text book example of top-down persecution of a minority. The thuggery against gays on the streets of Russia is merely following the example set by the legislators. The wider significance of this is that Russia is willing to make strong decisions that go against postmodern thinking. Russia is showing it won't descend into nihilism like the Western states have.

Gee, you're right there, Mistie. Russia is showing it is prepared to return to premodern thinking in their "election" of a Tzar - if not another Stalin.

Let's learn from the Russians, eh?

The willingness to confidently posit a law, a tradition, or an ethic and project it into the future sure beats a culture that revels in self-castigation and mollycoddling.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 1:48pm:

The willingness to confidently posit a law, a tradition, or an ethic and project it into the future sure beats a culture that revels in self-castigation and mollycoddling.

What if it's a law, a tradition, or an ethic you disagree with, Mistie?

I've noticed Sharia law is not too popular around here at the moment.

Not surprising - Russia has already ived through the horrors of Marxism, and won't be going back for more.  Meanwhile in the west, we learned nothing from their mistakes so are doomed torepeat them.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 13^th, 2013 at 11:00pm:

Vlad the impaler was Hungarian, not Russian. Anyway, there seems to be a particularly virulent homophobia within the Russian orthodox church, and they are twisting the arms of Russian politicians. The government is also pandering to a populist anti-western sentiment. And between the church and the government, homophobia and gay persecution seems to have well and trully filtered down into the grassroots level.

The real arm twisting is all on Putin's part. The man has a track record of orchestrating poo like this against groups or individuals he doesn't personally like. It's also not much of a surprise that Russia did this.  They're some of the homophobic people on earth.  Hell, they're one of the very few nations out there whose top ten internet porn search terms doesn't have any LGBT searches at all.

... wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Not surprising - Russia has already ived through the horrors of Marxism, and won't be going back for more.  Meanwhile in the west, we learned nothing from their mistakes so are doomed torepeat them.

What are you on? Putin’s inspiration is Stalin. He was a KGB officer and heavily committed to socialism and the USSR.

Putin’s support is a reaction to the privatization/neoliberalism of the Yeltsin years. Putin is slowly nationalizing Russian industry and mines again - this is his support base; the proletariat.

To do this, Putin leans on his carefully selected oligarchs. It’s closer to Fascism than communism, but whatever floats your boat.

Putin would return to centrally-planned Stalinism in a flash.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

The wider significance of this is that Russia is willing to make strong decisions that go against postmodern thinking. Russia is showing it won't descend into nihilism like the Western states have.

You say that as if its somehow a sign of strength, or something positive to institutionalise the persecution of a significant minority - consisting of anywhere up to 10% of any given population. I don't think you have to be "postmodern" or a western neo-liberal to think that such an approach is narrow minded, short sighted and ultimately self-defeating. You talk about Russia refusing to be mollycoddled - and yet that is exactly what the government is doing - being mollycoddled by powerful right wing christian fundamentalist interest groups. If you think this is Putin taking a principled stand you are sadly mistaken. Putin is being every bit as hypocritical and cynical as what you allege the western neo-liberal governments as being.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 3:07pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 1:15pm: The wider significance of this is that Russia is willing to make strong decisions that go against postmodern thinking. Russia is showing it won't descend into nihilism like the Western states have. You say that as if its somehow a sign of strength, or something positive to institutionalise the persecution of a significant minority - consisting of anywhere up to 10% of any given population. I don't think you have to be "postmodern" or a western neo-liberal to think that such an approach is narrow minded, short sighted and ultimately self-defeating. You talk about Russia refusing to be mollycoddled - and yet that is exactly what the government is doing - being mollycoddled by powerful right wing christian fundamentalist interest groups. If you think this is Putin taking a principled stand you are sadly mistaken. Putin is being every bit as hypocritical and cynical as what you allege the western neo-liberal governments as being.

Every society, culture, and/or civilization persecutes, marginalizes, and/or creates an 'other'. Russia, in this instance, is willing to put the dominant ideas held by his people first, and not yield to a minority group. Western countries, by contrast, bend over backward to accommodate almost every strange and obscure fetish there is, thus marginalizing the dominant group, but using such slogans like 'tolerance' and 'equality' to cover over their own attempts at marginalization. 

Russia obviously doesn't care for your finger-wagging moralization like "narrow minded, short sighted and ultimately self-defeating". Such words can be used to denigrate any group.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 4:00pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 3:07pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 1:15pm: The wider significance of this is that Russia is willing to make strong decisions that go against postmodern thinking. Russia is showing it won't descend into nihilism like the Western states have. You say that as if its somehow a sign of strength, or something positive to institutionalise the persecution of a significant minority - consisting of anywhere up to 10% of any given population. I don't think you have to be "postmodern" or a western neo-liberal to think that such an approach is narrow minded, short sighted and ultimately self-defeating. You talk about Russia refusing to be mollycoddled - and yet that is exactly what the government is doing - being mollycoddled by powerful right wing christian fundamentalist interest groups. If you think this is Putin taking a principled stand you are sadly mistaken. Putin is being every bit as hypocritical and cynical as what you allege the western neo-liberal governments as being. Every society, culture, and/or civilization persecutes, marginalizes, and/or creates an 'other'. Russia, in this instance, is willing to put the dominant ideas held by his people first, and not yield to a minority group. Western countries, by contrast, bend over backward to accommodate almost every strange and obscure fetish there is, thus marginalizing the dominant group, but using such slogans like 'tolerance' and 'equality' to cover over their own attempts at marginalization.  Russia obviously doesn't care for your finger-wagging moralization like "narrow minded, short sighted and ultimately self-defeating". Such words can be used to denigrate any group.

I agree, Mistie. Finger-waving moralizing like this?

The willingness to confidently posit a law, a tradition, or an ethic and project it into the future sure beats a culture that revels in self-castigation and mollycoddling.

Does it look like I am trying to extricate myself from morality?

The typical trendy view of the 'tolerance' crowd is to think they stand outside all prejudice, interest, motive, and desire. They believe they have access to absolute, timeless, objective morality (like the priesthood of old). But they too are driven by interest and particular motivations. Take Gandalf here. He bangs on about "persecution" then in the next breath throws a few  hand grenades at the Catholic Church! And he calls Putin a hypocrite!

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

Does it look like I am trying to extricate myself from morality? The typical trendy view of the 'tolerance' crowd is to think they stand outside all prejudice, interest, motive, and desire. They believe they have access to absolute, timeless, objective morality (like the priesthood of old). But they too are driven by interest and particular motivations. Take Gandalf here. He bangs on about "persecution" then in the next breath throws a few  hand grenades at the Catholic Church! And he calls Putin a hypocrite!

Please help me to understand, Mistie. Are you saying finger-waving moralizing is hypocritical?

Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

... wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 2:29pm: Not surprising - Russia has already ived through the horrors of Marxism, and won't be going back for more.  Meanwhile in the west, we learned nothing from their mistakes so are doomed torepeat them. What are you on? Putin’s inspiration is Stalin. He was a KGB officer and heavily committed to socialism and the USSR.

See that highlighted word?  past tense.  You don't rise through the ranks without first playing the golden boy.  But he's not retarded, he knows marxism is a sham. Putin is now committed only to his own power. 

Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 6:01pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 5:41pm: Does it look like I am trying to extricate myself from morality? The typical trendy view of the 'tolerance' crowd is to think they stand outside all prejudice, interest, motive, and desire. They believe they have access to absolute, timeless, objective morality (like the priesthood of old). But they too are driven by interest and particular motivations. Take Gandalf here. He bangs on about "persecution" then in the next breath throws a few  hand grenades at the Catholic Church! And he calls Putin a hypocrite! Please help me to understand, Mistie. Are you saying finger-waving moralizing is hypocritical?

It is when you cry "persecution" and then begin to persecute someone or something in the next breath.

Morning mist would no doubt have been cheering from the sidelines as Nazi Germany systematically started banning jews from public life.


Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 4:00pm:

Western countries, by contrast, bend over backward to accommodate almost every strange and obscure fetish there is, thus marginalizing the dominant group

'marginalizing the dominant group' - is obviously a contradiction in terms.

Western governments do plenty of bending-over-backwards accommodating - mostly involving stigmatising the most vulnerable like refugees and new start recipients. Whats funny about this discussion is that Russia is doing exactly the same - they are pandering to the Russian population's base fears and seeking political mileage from that. There is nothing upstanding or noble about that.


Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

Take Gandalf here. He bangs on about "persecution" then in the next breath throws a few  hand grenades at the Catholic Church!

errr.. when have said anything about the catholic church - ever??

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

A bill that stigmatizes gay people and bans giving children any information about homosexuality won overwhelming approval Tuesday in Russia's lower house of parliament.

And that's it?







....the sky is falling

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 9:22pm:

Morning mist would no doubt have been cheering from the sidelines as Nazi Germany systematically started banning jews from public life.

You've committed a reductio ad Hitlerum and Godwin. Two logical fallacies.



Quote:

Western governments do plenty of bending-over-backwards accommodating - mostly involving stigmatising the most vulnerable like refugees and new start recipients. Whats funny about this discussion is that Russia is doing exactly the same - they are pandering to the Russian population's base fears and seeking political mileage from that. There is nothing upstanding or noble about that.

Utter bullsh*t. Refugees and asylum seekers are given more benefits than your average Australian. While we have homeless people and thousands of unemployed, our governments gives away billions of dollars in foreign aid and to 'boat people'. Marginalization my arse.



Quote:

errr.. when have said anything about the catholic church - ever??

Fair enough. I retract that and put in its place Russian orthodox Church.

... wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 6:48pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 2:58pm: ... wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 2:29pm: Not surprising - Russia has already ived through the horrors of Marxism, and won't be going back for more.  Meanwhile in the west, we learned nothing from their mistakes so are doomed torepeat them. What are you on? Putin’s inspiration is Stalin. He was a KGB officer and heavily committed to socialism and the USSR. See that highlighted word?  past tense.  You don't rise through the ranks without first playing the golden boy.  But he's not retarded, he knows marxism is a sham. Putin is now committed only to his own power.

Quite right, Honky. And this is the honky utopia the "postmodern" West should aspire to?

Mistie, I thought the Slavs were the Untermentschen.

Please explain?

Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

Mistie, I thought the Slavs were the Untermentschen. Please explain?

Now the Aryans have made themselves the craven Untermentschen of the Untermentschen. A big thanks to you, of course,  and your fellow little workers in that particular enterprise.

Quote:

Quite right, Honky. And this is the honky utopia the "postmodern" West should aspire to?

*shrugs*

A minor, inconsequential law isn't much to build a utopia around. 

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

You've committed a reductio ad Hitlerum and Godwin. Two logical fallacies.

Quite right on the first sentence. However it is not a logical fallacy.


Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

Utter bullsh*t. Refugees and asylum seekers are given more benefits than your average Australian. While we have homeless people and thousands of unemployed, our governments gives away billions of dollars in foreign aid and to 'boat people'. Marginalization my arse.

Let me explain one thing my confused friend: the "billions" being given away on 'boat people' is mostly spent on maintaining offshore detention centres. It is well known that boat people could be processed onshore for a fraction of the price. However our government, in their wisdom, have deemed it worth the extra price to keep them imprisoned on remote pacific islands, safe from any scrutiny from Australian regulators and media, and especially inaccessible to Australian legal assistance. Or in other words, it specifically designed to punish boat people, and deter others from doing the same thing. Your portrayal of this extra cost as somehow pandering to the boat people is laughable.


Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

I retract that and put in its place Russian orthodox Church.

right - pointing out that the orthodox church is a major influence on the government's anti-gay policies is apparently 'persecuting' the church.  ::)

Soren wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 10:32pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 10:10pm: Mistie, I thought the Slavs were the Untermentschen. Please explain? Now the Aryans have made themselves the craven Untermentschen of the Untermentschen. A big thanks to you, of course,  and your fellow little workers in that particular enterprise.

Moi?

Good golly, old chap, I can finally see the error of our heinous ways.

We need to be more like jolly Russia, no?

Thank you, old chap. Thank you very much indeed.

... wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 10:35pm:

Quote: Quite right, Honky. And this is the honky utopia the "postmodern" West should aspire to? *shrugs* A minor, inconsequential law isn't much to build a utopia around.

Gee, Honky, you haven’t been reading Mistie’s posts. An ethic, a society, a vision for the future.

It’s positively Art Deco.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

Utter bullsh*t. Refugees and asylum seekers are given more benefits than your average Australian.

I didn't think you were that gullible Misty.

I'm disappointed.

http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/f/myth-email.php

Karnal wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 12:04am:

Soren wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 10:32pm: Karnal wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 10:10pm: Mistie, I thought the Slavs were the Untermentschen. Please explain? Now the Aryans have made themselves the craven Untermentschen of the Untermentschen. A big thanks to you, of course,  and your fellow little workers in that particular enterprise. Moi? Good golly, old chap, I can finally see the error of our heinous ways. We need to be more like jolly Russia, no? Thank you, old chap. Thank you very much indeed.

We must be as unlike you as humanly possible. If the Russians are also unlike you, well, that's a coincidence. We might or might not want to differentiate on that level.
But the first task is to be unlike you.

Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 10:10pm:

... wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 6:48pm: Karnal wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 2:58pm: ... wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 2:29pm: Not surprising - Russia has already ived through the horrors of Marxism, and won't be going back for more.  Meanwhile in the west, we learned nothing from their mistakes so are doomed torepeat them. What are you on? Putin’s inspiration is Stalin. He was a KGB officer and heavily committed to socialism and the USSR. See that highlighted word?  past tense.  You don't rise through the ranks without first playing the golden boy.  But he's not retarded, he knows marxism is a sham. Putin is now committed only to his own power.  Quite right, Honky. And this is the honky utopia the "postmodern" West should aspire to? Mistie, I thought the Slavs were the Untermentschen. Please explain?

I've never made any such statement.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 12:13am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 9:46pm: Utter bullsh*t. Refugees and asylum seekers are given more benefits than your average Australian. I didn't think you were that gullible Misty. I'm disappointed. http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/f/myth-email.php

I was referring to when they first rock up: Free food, free shelter, free medical care. No Australian I know receives this from the government.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 11:17pm:

Let me explain one thing my confused friend: the "billions" being given away on 'boat people' is mostly spent on maintaining offshore detention centres. It is well known that boat people could be processed onshore for a fraction of the price. However our government, in their wisdom, have deemed it worth the extra price to keep them imprisoned on remote pacific islands, safe from any scrutiny from Australian regulators and media, and especially inaccessible to Australian legal assistance. Or in other words, it specifically designed to punish boat people, and deter others from doing the same thing. Your portrayal of this extra cost as somehow pandering to the boat people is laughable.

Yet, despite this "punishment" they rock up in record numbers. How many on Rudd and Gillard's watch, 40,000?
They receive free food, free shelter, and free medical care. And now they're free of the (supposed) persecution they are fleeing from. Arh, what punishment! No Australian is mollycoddled in such a manner. They aren't "marginalized" or "persecuted".



Quote:

right - pointing out that the orthodox church is a major influence on the government's anti-gay policies is apparently 'persecuting' the church.  ::)

By taking the side of the gays you automatically place yourself in their camp (unintended humour there) and oppose the other camps. Everyone does this when they take a position on a matter. They align themselves with one group and stand opposed to numerous other groups.

Look, I have nothing against gays. I am just interested in Russia making decisions in its own interest instead of kowtowing to minority groups. 

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 11:21am:

By taking the side of the gays

There's your problem right there - assuming this is just a simplistic "with-em or agin-em" dichotomy.

When you discern from my posts that I am "taking the side of gays", then you completely miss the point. The problem here is not me taking sides, but rather you taking sides. Everything in your world view is a simplistic "trendy lefty" bad guys vs those righteous folk who oppose them. So naturally, in a discussions like this you automatically contextualise whats happening in Russia with this simplistic world view. This is fallacious because in this case, you automatically see any action taken against gays (for example) as positive - not because of anything to do with the actual facts of the case in Russia - but simply because it seems to adhere to your worldview meme.

To be more specific, its rather amusing that you brand this as "Russia making decisions in its own interest", and seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that ostracizing (and by implication, persecuting) anywhere up to 10% of the entire population, and pretending that a problem that will never go away, will go away - is somehow a standing up for the national interest - instead of just identifying it for what it is - cheap, short term fear mongering to appeal to latent prejudice. 

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 12:46pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 11:21am: By taking the side of the gays There's your problem right there - assuming this is just a simplistic "with-em or agin-em" dichotomy. When you discern from my posts that I am "taking the side of gays", then you completely miss the point. The problem here is not me taking sides, but rather you taking sides. Everything in your world view is a simplistic "trendy lefty" bad guys vs those righteous folk who oppose them. So naturally, in a discussions like this you automatically contextualise whats happening in Russia with this simplistic world view. This is fallacious because in this case, you automatically see any action taken against gays (for example) as positive - not because of anything to do with the actual facts of the case in Russia - but simply because it seems to adhere to your worldview meme. To be more specific, its rather amusing that you brand this as "Russia making decisions in its own interest", and seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that ostracizing (and by implication, persecuting) anywhere up to 10% of the entire population, and pretending that a problem that will never go away, will go away - is somehow a standing up for the national interest - instead of just identifying it for what it is - cheap, short term fear mongering to appeal to latent prejudice.

I've already explained that no one makes a decision devoid of interest or motivations of some kind. Stop thinking your own sh*t doesn't stink and you come from a position of untainted morality.

The position you're taking is what they call in philosophical circles "the view from nowhere". You think you're beyond space and time, but you're not; you're fully embedded in the socio-political world - and we all make decisions from the perspectives embroiled therein.

The slogans you're using of "persecution" etc can simply be turned on their head and used similarly. For example, you're "intolerant", "prejudiced", and "bigoted" toward the Russian majority and Orthodox Church.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 11:12am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 12:13am: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 9:46pm: Utter bullsh*t. Refugees and asylum seekers are given more benefits than your average Australian. I didn't think you were that gullible Misty. I'm disappointed. http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/f/myth-email.php I was referring to when they first rock up: Free food, free shelter, free medical care. No Australian I know receives this from the government.

Except for prisoners, Mistie.

The Geneva Convention, if I recall from Hogan’s Heroes, requires prisoners of war get the same.

And these boat people are nothing more than POWs.

Putin wouldn’t feed them, that’s for sure.

Soren wrote on Jun 15^th, 2013 at 10:45am:

Karnal wrote on Jun 15th, 2013 at 12:04am: Soren wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 10:32pm: Karnal wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 10:10pm: Mistie, I thought the Slavs were the Untermentschen. Please explain? Now the Aryans have made themselves the craven Untermentschen of the Untermentschen. A big thanks to you, of course,  and your fellow little workers in that particular enterprise. Moi? Good golly, old chap, I can finally see the error of our heinous ways. We need to be more like jolly Russia, no? Thank you, old chap. Thank you very much indeed. We must be as unlike you as humanly possible. If the Russians are also unlike you, well, that's a coincidence. We might or might not want to differentiate on that level. But the first task is to be unlike you.

Borrowing from Voltaire again, old chap? Or is it Thomas Paine?

Marvellous stuff. Rich tapestry, innit.